Spieth disqualified for an incorrect scorecard

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Why in today's world, with every group having a scorer, the camera men watching every hole, with web sites posting the scores, do the golfers themselves have to sign a card for their score?

So evidently they had the correct score from the scorer, so that they can compare the players' signed card against the scorers tally. . . and disqualify him. Otherwise, how would they know so quickly?

Seems like the old fashioned pre television, pre media blitz everywhere, rule that the traditionalists don't want to change, is really out of date. The rule about signing for yours and your opponents card is left over from the very old days when golfers went out alone, and the sport had to impose such rules to prevent dishonesty amongst the players.

That scenario doesn't exist in today's world, so maybe the rules of PGA tournaments need to be updated to the scorer keeping the score, so the players can focus on playing and not paperwork!

paperwork sucks

[retiredguy123]

I don't know about the scorer, but I don't think every round has a camera or someone updating a website. I like the rule where you have to sign the scorecard. It keeps the players honest. There are cheaters on the pro tour.

I still think that Lexi Thompson should have been expelled from the ladies tour for cheating in the 2017 ANA tournament. There is no question that she was or is a cheater.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

I don't know about the scorer, but I don't think every round has a camera or someone updating a website. I like the rule where you have to sign the scorecard. It keeps the players honest. There are cheaters on the pro tour.

I still think that Lexi Thompson should have been expelled from the ladies tour for cheating in the 2017 ANA tournament. There is no question that she was or is a cheater.

If you take the paperwork away, and use an official scorer the player can't cheat. . obviously I wasn't clear in my rant.

back to my original point, most all other sports, there are official scorers. . golf's signing your own scorecard is a century old holdover

[dewilson58]

Golf is a game of tradition and honor............glad these items continue.

:thumbup:

[retiredguy123]

If you take the paperwork away, and use an official scorer the player can't cheat. . obviously I wasn't clear in my rant.

back to my original point, most all other sports, there are official scorers. . golf's signing your own scorecard is a century old holdover
I don't disagree with your rant. But, most other sports don't require honesty, like golf does. Also, in the first 2 rounds of a tournament, there may be 70 groups of 3 players, so you would need a lot of scorers to watch every shot.

[BrianL99]

".... what a stupid I am".

".... I lose my brain".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akrz447IG4A

[BrianL99]

///

[BrianL99]

Golf is a game of tradition and honor............glad these items continue.

:thumbup:

Recent generations are loathe to take responsibility for anything.

Do you really think they should have to add up their score themselves and sign their name?

.... sounds a little onerous to me.

[Two Bills]

Most games of golf do not have someone to keep the score.
What makes golf so good, is the personal honesty of the game.
Lose that, and the game loses all its integrity.
Plus, keep collared shirts, and ban denim! :icon_wink:

[mike234]

Golf is a game of tradition and honor............glad these items continue.

:thumbup:
tradition and honor. the tradition of the player who scores a hole in one, has to buy the drinks. absolutely absurd. it should be the other way around, as to ease the financial burden on the hole in one player .........

[retiredguy123]

tradition and honor. the tradition of the player who scores a hole in one, has to buy the drinks. absolutely absurd. it should be the other way around, as to ease the financial burden on the hole in one player .........
I agree. That is why, on a par 3, I always aim a little to the left or right of the hole to avoid making a hole-in-one.

[BrianL99]

Plus, keep collared shirts, and ban denim! :icon_wink:


Absolutelyl

[CoachKandSportsguy]

I still think that Lexi Thompson should have been expelled from the ladies tour for cheating in the 2017 ANA tournament. There is no question that she was or is a cheater.

I personally know professional athletes and olympic level athletes who know all the rules, and also know how to push into the grey area between what's allowed and what will be called as "cheating." That's why refs, umps, officials, and video replay now exist. . . Players shouldn't be trusted with following the rules, and to protect the players from others who cheat, or human officiating.

There is cheating from adding the total score, and there is cheating at the execution in the game. I think people can confuse the two. Cheating in execution during the competition is about what the rules are for. That is where the athlete can make or break a shot, like Lexi T did and Tiger W did the same at a master's tournament, caught by the cameraman and replay, the grey area between the rules and people actually calling foul. That's why there are rules officials during tournaments to protect the players from themselves, and I am proposing the same idea with paperwork. . . there are now limits to people from home watching calling in fouls in pga tournaments, which did happen and players got caught in execution . . . that doesn't happen in any other sport either, being officiated by the watching public

Paperwork should not be part of the player's responsibility any more. I have worked at a PGA tournament, there are plenty of people available to able to be a scorer, . . . just like there are exams and qualifications to be umps and referees, there can be the same for PGA on field scorers doing paperwork. I met retired golf groupies who travel in RVs from tournament to tournament around the country for the travel and the free meals and watching what they love.

its just a centuries old process held over by traditionalists.

still try to change my mind

[biker1]

I have found that aiming right at the hole prevents me from making holes-in-one ;-)

I agree. That is why, on a par 3, I always aim a little to the left or right of the hole to avoid making a hole-in-one.

[Two Bills]

Absolutelyl

Special medical exemption for Jon Daly!

[mike234]

Jordan whines after every shot to his caddy. if I were in his group, I would have to tell him to stop your whining after every shot......I dont know how his caddy continues to let him cry after each shot

[biker1]

I do. His caddy probably gets 10% when he wins.

Jordan whines after every shot to his caddy. if I were in his group, I would have to tell him to stop your whining after every shot......I dont know how his caddy continues to let him cry after each shot

[mike234]

Most games of golf do not have someone to keep the score.
What makes golf so good, is the personal honesty of the game.
Lose that, and the game loses all its integrity.
Plus, keep collared shirts, and ban denim! :icon_wink:
yes. also collared shirts on the driving ranges also....and especially the women, who seem to get a break at the range with your tank tops on, showing off your gross tats.....ladies, if your are overweight, and think your tats are attractive, they are not.....gross

[Topspinmo]

Most games of golf do not have someone to keep the score.
What makes golf so good, is the personal honesty of the game.
Lose that, and the game loses all its integrity.
Plus, keep collared shirts, and ban denim! :icon_wink:

Well if want tradition play in Sundays best, suit with tie. And walk course.

[BrianL99]

Well if want tradition play in Sundays best, suit with tie. And walk course.

Playing in our Club Championship, 6 years ago. Close enough?

[dewilson58]

tradition and honor. the tradition of the player who scores a hole in one, has to buy the drinks. absolutely absurd. it should be the other way around, as to ease the financial burden on the hole in one player .........

Not a tradition.

[dewilson58]

Do you really think they should have to add up their score themselves and sign their name?



Absolutely.

As far as I know, the only sport in which you call a penalty on yourself.

Very cool.

[JMintzer]

Not a tradition.

"On the face of it, it runs counter to reason — executing a heroic shot, only to be slapped with a humungous bar bill. Yet evidence suggests that the practice dates back at least 100 years; as early as 1918, newspaper articles refer to the sale of hole-in-one insurance."

The Etiquetteist: Do I really have to buy drinks after a hole-in-one? (https://golf.com/lifestyle/food/the-etiquetteist-buy-drinks-hole-in-one/)

[Two Bills]

Well if want tradition play in Sundays best, suit with tie. And walk course.

I do, but undo my collar stud when Temperature is over 90 degrees.

[mike234]

Not a tradition.
yes it is

[jebartle]

Playing in our Club Championship, 6 years ago. Close enough?

WHAT a stud!

[Stu from NYC]

Jordan whines after every shot to his caddy. if I were in his group, I would have to tell him to stop your whining after every shot......I dont know how his caddy continues to let him cry after each shot

Caddy is the employee what would you have him do?

[Stu from NYC]

Absolutely.

As far as I know, the only sport in which you call a penalty on yourself.



That is why my score is always so high

[jimmy o]

Sorry but I disagree. I think every player should know their score. The golfer is trying to get a low score, he needs to know if he’s succeeding.

[mike234]

Caddy is the employee what would you have him do?
I guess you agree that Jordan whines to him all day. the caddy cant do anything but stand there and give him the dumb look....

[danglanzsr]

In golf, an opposing player keeps the scorecard for a player, thereby vouching for the score. The player then can request the card be corrected. The players do not add up the score. The addition is done by the tournament committee.

[Accidental1]

In golf, an opposing player keeps the scorecard for a player, thereby vouching for the score. The player then can request the card be corrected. The players do not add up the score. The addition is done by the tournament committee.

That's true. In this case, I believe the error was actually made by Speiths playing partner Tom Kim. He recorded a 3 on #4 when Speith actually made bogey. As I understand it, Spieth was a little hot after finishing with a 40 on the back nine, signed the card without thoroughly checking it, and left the scoring area before the committee validated the card. I'm not certain, but I think they validate it with the groups walking scorers electronic record. I believe the player is responsible for the addition, not the committee; they just validate.

[dewilson58]

Bottom line.............you sign it, you own it.

[Mrfriendly]

Why in today's world, with every group having a scorer, the camera men watching every hole, with web sites posting the scores, do the golfers themselves have to sign a card for their score?

So evidently they had the correct score from the scorer, so that they can compare the players' signed card against the scorers tally. . . and disqualify him. Otherwise, how would they know so quickly?

Seems like the old fashioned pre television, pre media blitz everywhere, rule that the traditionalists don't want to change, is really out of date. The rule about signing for yours and your opponents card is left over from the very old days when golfers went out alone, and the sport had to impose such rules to prevent dishonesty amongst the players.

That scenario doesn't exist in today's world, so maybe the rules of PGA tournaments need to be updated to the scorer keeping the score, so the players can focus on playing and not paperwork!

paperwork sucks

This is why I don’t keep score and the Beer tastes better after playing.

[OhioBuckeye]

That happens once in a while!

[Stu from NYC]

I guess you agree that Jordan whines to him all day. the caddy cant do anything but stand there and give him the dumb look....

Dont know the folks involved personally, but caddy is an employee.

[Steve]

Why in today's world, with every group having a scorer, the camera men watching every hole, with web sites posting the scores, do the golfers themselves have to sign a card for their score?

So evidently they had the correct score from the scorer, so that they can compare the players' signed card against the scorers tally. . . and disqualify him. Otherwise, how would they know so quickly?

Seems like the old fashioned pre television, pre media blitz everywhere, rule that the traditionalists don't want to change, is really out of date. The rule about signing for yours and your opponents card is left over from the very old days when golfers went out alone, and the sport had to impose such rules to prevent dishonesty amongst the players.

That scenario doesn't exist in today's world, so maybe the rules of PGA tournaments need to be updated to the scorer keeping the score, so the players can focus on playing and not paperwork!

paperwork sucks

I worked the Arnold Palmer Invitational for five years and here's what I have experienced working with ShotLink at green #4 for four of those five years. Every group has a "walking scorer" who walks with that group for the entire round. He or she has a tablet on which he enters scores which are instantly transmitted to the scoring truck and from there to the media, etc. Each group also has someone carrying a sign telling the public each player's score relative to par. I can't count how many times at the conclusion of a hole the "official scorer" and the sign carrier have a debate about who scored what, to the point they often have to have a discussion with the player to get it straight. As a player I would WANT to keep my own score AND my opponent's score to make sure the "official score" was accurate.

One thing that helps now is that ShotLink does record every shot, even if it's not televised. More than once we had to radio the ShotLink truck to help us find a ball which was buried in deep rough. And they could do it by tracking the ball's path to it's general landing area.

If Spieth had checked his card against his opponents and there was a dispute over a hole ShotLink could have gone back and verified each shot on that hole. But they don't do that unless there is a dispute that can't be resolved. And that rarely happens. Spieth just didn't check the cards to note the discrepancy.

[BrianL99]

I believe the player is responsible for the addition, not the committee; they just validate.

The Player is not responsible for the "addition", per USGA Rules 3.3 (b)(4)

(https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3)

The PGA Tour has a ton of "local rules" & Conditions of Play, but I doubt there's anything in them, that requires the player to total his score or penalizes him for bad math skills (as someone mentioned earlier in the thread).

[Singerlady]

Why in today's world, with every group having a scorer, the camera men watching every hole, with web sites posting the scores, do the golfers themselves have to sign a card for their score?

So evidently they had the correct score from the scorer, so that they can compare the players' signed card against the scorers tally. . . and disqualify him. Otherwise, how would they know so quickly?

Seems like the old fashioned pre television, pre media blitz everywhere, rule that the traditionalists don't want to change, is really out of date. The rule about signing for yours and your opponents card is left over from the very old days when golfers went out alone, and the sport had to impose such rules to prevent dishonesty amongst the players.

That scenario doesn't exist in today's world, so maybe the rules of PGA tournaments need to be updated to the scorer keeping the score, so the players can focus on playing and not paperwork!

paperwork sucks
As a former scorer, this is what happens. Your playing partner is your official scorer and vice-versa. At the bottom of each score card is a perforated strip for me(your official scorer) to score FOR you, and on your card, you (my official scorer) to score FOR me. The scorer is a check for the scores. She/he is not the official scorer.
Once the round is done and all are in the scorers tent/building, the players exchange the perforated strips with their scores on it and compare their official score (from their playing partner) to the score that they wrote on their card. They then ask the scorer to read the scores he/she recorded. That’s how it’s done.
The only way I think Spieth could’ve been DQ’d is if he signed the card before the scorer read his scores. Not smart.
I actually had a situation at the Western Open on Chicago where I caught the player in a wrong score. I said he had a 4, he had written down a 5. I reconstructed the hole for him (where his ball was on the hole) and his partner said “she’s right”. Saved him from being DQ’d.

[golfing eagles]

As a former scorer, this is what happens. Your playing partner is your official scorer and vice-versa. At the bottom of each score card is a perforated strip for me(your official scorer) to score FOR you, and on your card, you (my official scorer) to score FOR me. The scorer is a check for the scores. She/he is not the official scorer.
Once the round is done and all are in the scorers tent/building, the players exchange the perforated strips with their scores on it and compare their official score (from their playing partner) to the score that they wrote on their card. They then ask the scorer to read the scores he/she recorded. That’s how it’s done.
The only way I think Spieth could’ve been DQ’d is if he signed the card before the scorer read his scores. Not smart.
I actually had a situation at the Western Open on Chicago where I caught the player in a wrong score. I said he had a 4, he had written down a 5. I reconstructed the hole for him (where his ball was on the hole) and his partner said “she’s right”. Saved him from being DQ’d.

Absolutely correct. If Spieth had not left the "scoring area" it could have been corrected. The tragedy here is that the "scoring area" was the women's locker room, Spieth had gone 50 feet away to the men's locker room. But I suppose rules are rules. Perhaps it would be better to define the "scoring area" as the entire clubhouse and any area within 100 feet of it.

[rsmurano]

“onerous” for someone to keep score for a value around 70? I know our younger generation can’t read or write at a grade school level, but if you can’t add 18 scores up to a value of 70 or 80, then you really have a problem.

[Hape2Bhr]

Absolutely correct. If Spieth had not left the "scoring area" it could have been corrected. The tragedy here is that the "scoring area" was the women's locker room, Spieth had gone 50 feet away to the men's locker room. But I suppose rules are rules. Perhaps it would be better to define the "scoring area" as the entire clubhouse and any area within 100 feet of it.

I recall Spieth running up the stairs quickly as soon as his group finished the 18th...he may have been upset or needed a restroom urgently. :eek:

[wpsabo]

Has it worked?

[Coley]

I agree. That is why, on a par 3, I always aim a little to the left or right of the hole to avoid making a hole-in-one.


Now that's funny!

[SHIBUMI]

Where in the rule book does it mention clothes you cannot wear???? Its the elitest mentally at stuffy golf clubs. They dont want golfers looking like working class smucks.

Absolutelyl

[BrianL99]

Where in the rule book does it mention clothes you cannot wear???? Its the elitest mentally at stuffy golf clubs. They dont want golfers looking like working class smucks.

I'm with you.

This is the 21st Century. Having a dress code for a non-private country club, is ridiculous and elitist ... without justification.

[SHIBUMI]

If he had a 4 and signed for a 5, he would not be disqualified, he would have to take the 5. If he had a 4 and signed for a three, he would have been disqualified. They will give you more but not less, bigger penalty.


As a former scorer, this is what happens. Your playing partner is your official scorer and vice-versa. At the bottom of each score card is a perforated strip for me(your official scorer) to score FOR you, and on your card, you (my official scorer) to score FOR me. The scorer is a check for the scores. She/he is not the official scorer.
Once the round is done and all are in the scorers tent/building, the players exchange the perforated strips with their scores on it and compare their official score (from their playing partner) to the score that they wrote on their card. They then ask the scorer to read the scores he/she recorded. That’s how it’s done.
The only way I think Spieth could’ve been DQ’d is if he signed the card before the scorer read his scores. Not smart.
I actually had a situation at the Western Open on Chicago where I caught the player in a wrong score. I said he had a 4, he had written down a 5. I reconstructed the hole for him (where his ball was on the hole) and his partner said “she’s right”. Saved him from being DQ’d.

[SHIBUMI]

It is the 21st Century and private clubs are private for who they can keep out. Its not America today. If you can afford it you should be able to get in. The days of black balling should be over. Augusta has been the face of prejudice from day 1. We need those days to be over......I remember when Hyannisport Golf Club wouldn't let Bill Russell join because he was too tall........................I'm with you.

This is the 21st Century. Having a dress code for a non-private country club, is ridiculous and elitist ... without justification.

[BrianL99]

It is the 21st Century and private clubs are private for who they can keep out. Its not America today. If you can afford it you should be able to get in. The days of black balling should be over. Augusta has been the face of prejudice from day 1. We need those days to be over......I remember when Hyannisport Golf Club wouldn't let Bill Russell join because he was too tall........................


There's actually more to it, than you may think.

Private Clubs enjoy certain tax benefits and more importantly they retain a level of protection from ADA compliance and some other accessibility regulations.

In order to maintain those benefits as a "private club", the membership has to be "selective" per IRS Regulations. If you are not selective and allow anyone with enough money to join, you will lose your protection as a private club.

Obviously, you're not entitled to discriminate on the basis someone's "height", unless your club is limited to "short people" and you can't use selective criteria that is discriminatory on its face, against a protected class.

The fact that you mentioned Hyannisport CC and Bill Russel, leads me to believe you might be from Massachusetts?

The link below is to the seminal case on the protections offered to and requirements to be a "private club". You may remember Bob Lobel, a Boston Sportscaster (& 1st class jerk). he sued Woodland Golf Club. In relevant part, the decision says:

For the reasons stated below, the undisputed evidence shows that Woodland has all the basic characteristics of a private club, including genuine selectivity of membership and exclusion of non-members from regular or indiscriminate use of its facilities. It is therefore not subject to the requirements of the ADA, and Lobel's motion for summary judgment will be denied and Woodland's motion for summary judgment will be granted.

Lobel v. Woodland Golf Club of Auburndale, 260 F. Supp. 3d 127 | Casetext Search + Citator (https://casetext.com/case/lobel-v-woodland-golf-club-of-auburndale-2)

If you're really interested in the subject:

Private Clubs Under the Americans With Disabilities Act | ADA National Network (https://adata.org/factsheet/private-clubs-under-americans-disabilities-act)

When Is a Private Club Not a 'Private Club'? | ACLU Pennsylvania (https://www.aclupa.org/en/press-releases/when-private-club-not-private-club)

https://nr1st.org/ada-requirements-for-private-businesses

[Steve]

Where in the rule book does it mention clothes you cannot wear???? Its the elitest mentally at stuffy golf clubs. They dont want golfers looking like working class smucks.

Unless you play for LIV where you wear shorts and have a shotgun start, just like a church fundraiser!

[SHIBUMI]

thanks for the info...........why they get any tax benefit is the bigger question...........

There's actually more to it, than you may think.

Private Clubs enjoy certain tax benefits and more importantly they retain a level of protection from ADA compliance and some other accessibility regulations.

In order to maintain those benefits as a "private club", the membership has to be "selective" per IRS Regulations. If you are not selective and allow anyone with enough money to join, you will lose your protection as a private club.

Obviously, you're not entitled to discriminate on the basis someone's "height", unless your club is limited to "short people" and you can't use selective criteria that is discriminatory on its face, against a protected class.

The fact that you mentioned Hyannisport CC and Bill Russel, leads me to believe you might be from Massachusetts?

The link below is to the seminal case on the protections offered to and requirements to be a "private club". You may remember Bob Lobel, a Boston Sportscaster (& 1st class jerk). he sued Woodland Golf Club. In relevant part, the decision says:

For the reasons stated below, the undisputed evidence shows that Woodland has all the basic characteristics of a private club, including genuine selectivity of membership and exclusion of non-members from regular or indiscriminate use of its facilities. It is therefore not subject to the requirements of the ADA, and Lobel's motion for summary judgment will be denied and Woodland's motion for summary judgment will be granted.

Lobel v. Woodland Golf Club of Auburndale, 260 F. Supp. 3d 127 | Casetext Search + Citator (https://casetext.com/case/lobel-v-woodland-golf-club-of-auburndale-2)

If you're really interested in the subject:

Private Clubs Under the Americans With Disabilities Act | ADA National Network (https://adata.org/factsheet/private-clubs-under-americans-disabilities-act)

When Is a Private Club Not a 'Private Club'? | ACLU Pennsylvania (https://www.aclupa.org/en/press-releases/when-private-club-not-private-club)

https://nr1st.org/ada-requirements-for-private-businesses

[CoachKandSportsguy]

As a former scorer, this is what happens. Your playing partner is your official scorer and vice-versa. At the bottom of each score card is a perforated strip for me(your official scorer) to score FOR you, and on your card, you (my official scorer) to score FOR me. The scorer is a check for the scores. She/he is not the official scorer.
Once the round is done and all are in the scorers tent/building, the players exchange the perforated strips with their scores on it and compare their official score (from their playing partner) to the score that they wrote on their card. They then ask the scorer to read the scores he/she recorded. That’s how it’s done.
The only way I think Spieth could’ve been DQ’d is if he signed the card before the scorer read his scores. Not smart.
I actually had a situation at the Western Open on Chicago where I caught the player in a wrong score. I said he had a 4, he had written down a 5. I reconstructed the hole for him (where his ball was on the hole) and his partner said “she’s right”. Saved him from being DQ’d.

That's the current process, I am not questioning the current process steps, but the need for that process to continue when you, the scorer, are sitting there with the official answers.

just more paperwork, which is what a player doesn't need to worry about after the day of golf. . . You think that the players sign for their card at the Ryder Cup?

The process should be that the player confirms the official score kept by the scorer, and has the opportunity to challenge / disagree with the official scorer (throws a red flag)

The situation with which I disagree, is when someone on the rules committee tells a golfer that hitting out of the bunker in a flying pile of sand, that he double hit the ball. The player, maybe named John Cook, says "I didn't feel any second hit, but if you say so!", then the player is not keeping his own scorecard, the scorer is, and you can't disagree with him. Again, you are just signing the card to confirm that the official score keeper is correct, nothing more. .

[Marine1974]

Why in today's world, with every group having a scorer, the camera men watching every hole, with web sites posting the scores, do the golfers themselves have to sign a card for their score?

So evidently they had the correct score from the scorer, so that they can compare the players' signed card against the scorers tally. . . and disqualify him. Otherwise, how would they know so quickly?

Seems like the old fashioned pre television, pre media blitz everywhere, rule that the traditionalists don't want to change, is really out of date. The rule about signing for yours and your opponents card is left over from the very old days when golfers went out alone, and the sport had to impose such rules to prevent dishonesty amongst the players.

That scenario doesn't exist in today's world, so maybe the rules of PGA tournaments need to be updated to the scorer keeping the score, so the players can focus on playing and not paperwork!

paperwork sucks

It’s more about keeping your own score so you know how to play your next shot . Without the player knowing his or her score , the player should not rely is allowed a camera man from tv , spectators etc . It’s about keeping your own score to determine your course management.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

It’s more about keeping your own score so you know how to play your next shot . Without the player knowing his or her score , the player should not rely is allowed a camera man from tv , spectators etc . It’s about keeping your own score to determine your course management.

LOL! uh, no . . its for the purse, and fedex points. .

[golfing eagles]

That's the current process, I am not questioning the current process steps, but the need for that process to continue when you, the scorer, are sitting there with the official answers.

just more paperwork, which is what a player doesn't need to worry about after the day of golf. . . You think that the players sign for their card at the Ryder Cup?

The process should be that the player confirms the official score kept by the scorer, and has the opportunity to challenge / disagree with the official scorer (throws a red flag)

The situation with which I disagree, is when someone on the rules committee tells a golfer that hitting out of the bunker in a flying pile of sand, that he double hit the ball. The player, maybe named John Cook, says "I didn't feel any second hit, but if you say so!", then the player is not keeping his own scorecard, the scorer is, and you can't disagree with him. Again, you are just signing the card to confirm that the official score keeper is correct, nothing more. .

A wrong scorecard on the PGA tour is pretty rare. You are given a scorecard for a fellow-competitor which also has a line for your own score. There is also an official scorer as well. At the end of the round you compare the score that you kept with the person who kept your score, and vice versa, then sign it and turn it in. There is also a comparison with the official scorer. This is exactly the same process we use on the Golf Channel AM Tour, and a problem is rare. I suspect that the pros have gone through this so many time that they occasionally get complacent and make a mistake. And even at that, if they hung around the scoring area until their score was officially posted, it could still be corrected.

BTW, as of January 2019, there is no longer a penalty for a "double hit"

[SHIBUMI]

Last time I checked, the Ryder Cup is match play....................in Match Play there is no requirement to even keep a scorecard.......

The walking scorer types in the scores for each hole for all playersr selectronically...........those scores are transmitted to the scoring tent computers automatically

A player keeps his score on the top of his scorecard and his opponents on the scorecard

Once done, they rip off their top portion of the scorecard and compare it to the card kept by the opponent

The scoring tent checks the card against the electronic and will mention any discrepancies, once sorted the player signs his scorecard, hard to do wrong here.

Then the player signs 2 golfballs and presents one to the electronic scorer and the other to another volunteer

It is really tough to sign a wrong scorecard unless you are ****ed off enough to blow it off. Nice to know it cost him at least 20,000$ which is close to last place money so it could have been more.

There is always a double check system in accounting and here even a triple check with the electronic scorers.........again, really, really hard to sign for a wrong score in these circumstances

The caddy lost money, he may not let Jordan do that again.............golf can get emotional to the point of negligence and stupidity


That's the current process, I am not questioning the current process steps, but the need for that process to continue when you, the scorer, are sitting there with the official answers.

just more paperwork, which is what a player doesn't need to worry about after the day of golf. . . You think that the players sign for their card at the Ryder Cup?

The process should be that the player confirms the official score kept by the scorer, and has the opportunity to challenge / disagree with the official scorer (throws a red flag)

The situation with which I disagree, is when someone on the rules committee tells a golfer that hitting out of the bunker in a flying pile of sand, that he double hit the ball. The player, maybe named John Cook, says "I didn't feel any second hit, but if you say so!", then the player is not keeping his own scorecard, the scorer is, and you can't disagree with him. Again, you are just signing the card to confirm that the official score keeper is correct, nothing more. .

[dewilson58]

BTW, as of January 2019, there is no longer a penalty for a "double hit"

That's why on the green I keep tapping the ball, keeping it in motion, until it drops in the cup. I have so many one putts now.

[fdpaq0580]

Golf is a game of tradition and honor............glad these items continue.

:thumbup:

Tradition? Where is me kilt and me sporin?

Honor? Score card? You take my word or be run through. Trial by combat!

Seriously, jeans on a winter day and a sweat shirt for warmth? No!
But a clown costume, big shoes and all is OK if it has a collar.

[BrianL99]

You think that the players sign for their card at the Ryder Cup?

.

Different game. Match Play and Medal Play have different rules and there is no "scorecard" in Match Play.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/topics/match-play.html

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Different game. Match Play and Medal Play have different rules and there is no "scorecard" in Match Play.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/topics/match-play.html

I know, which was also my point . . . there is no scorecard, but there is an official scorer to track it. .

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Last time I checked, the Ryder Cup is match play....................in Match Play there is no requirement to even keep a scorecard.......

The walking scorer types in the scores for each hole for all playersr selectronically...........those scores are transmitted to the scoring tent computers automatically

A player keeps his score on the top of his scorecard and his opponents on the scorecard

Once done, they rip off their top portion of the scorecard and compare it to the card kept by the opponent

The scoring tent checks the card against the electronic and will mention any discrepancies, once sorted the player signs his scorecard, hard to do wrong here.

Then the player signs 2 golfballs and presents one to the electronic scorer and the other to another volunteer

It is really tough to sign a wrong scorecard unless you are ****ed off enough to blow it off. Nice to know it cost him at least 20,000$ which is close to last place money so it could have been more.

There is always a double check system in accounting and here even a triple check with the electronic scorers.........again, really, really hard to sign for a wrong score in these circumstances

The caddy lost money, he may not let Jordan do that again.............golf can get emotional to the point of negligence and stupidity

Why are you retyping the current process which I am not question the process?

just the why of the process, which is not needed

[karostay]

Why in today's world, with every group having a scorer, the camera men watching every hole, with web sites posting the scores, do the golfers themselves have to sign a card for their score?

So evidently they had the correct score from the scorer, so that they can compare the players' signed card against the scorers tally. . . and disqualify him. Otherwise, how would they know so quickly?

Seems like the old fashioned pre television, pre media blitz everywhere, rule that the traditionalists don't want to change, is really out of date. The rule about signing for yours and your opponents card is left over from the very old days when golfers went out alone, and the sport had to impose such rules to prevent dishonesty amongst the players.

That scenario doesn't exist in today's world, so maybe the rules of PGA tournaments need to be updated to the scorer keeping the score, so the players can focus on playing and not paperwork!

paperwork sucks

Poop Happens

[hawthorg]

I agree. That is why, on a par 3, I always aim a little to the left or right of the hole to avoid making a hole-in-one.

LOL....I think we all do that!

[SHIBUMI]

The process insures honesty..........and responsibility..........unlike most other sports.....

Why are you retyping the current process which I am not question the process?

just the why of the process, which is not needed

[SHIBUMI]

Your opponent is the official scorekeeper...................the person walking along and keeping your score electronically is not the official scorekeeper. Its a smart double check, triple check system, to avoid cheating that occurs in many other sports.


That's the current process, I am not questioning the current process steps, but the need for that process to continue when you, the scorer, are sitting there with the official answers.

just more paperwork, which is what a player doesn't need to worry about after the day of golf. . . You think that the players sign for their card at the Ryder Cup?

The process should be that the player confirms the official score kept by the scorer, and has the opportunity to challenge / disagree with the official scorer (throws a red flag)

The situation with which I disagree, is when someone on the rules committee tells a golfer that hitting out of the bunker in a flying pile of sand, that he double hit the ball. The player, maybe named John Cook, says "I didn't feel any second hit, but if you say so!", then the player is not keeping his own scorecard, the scorer is, and you can't disagree with him. Again, you are just signing the card to confirm that the official score keeper is correct, nothing more. .

[BrianL99]

Different game. Match Play and Medal Play have different rules and there is no "scorecard" in Match Play.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/topics/match-play.html


I know, which was also my point . . . there is no scorecard, but there is an official scorer to track it. .


I don't believe that to be the case. The players themselves "keep score" ... usually witnessed by 1000's of people.

To suggest PGA Professionals shouldn't be burdened with keeping their score, is ludicrous on its face and there's hardly a professional golfer on earth, who would dispute that.

[jebartle]

Ho hum, my favorite player, won't be able to take millions home to Annie, Sammie and Sofia, and the sun will shine again! I think the guy that yells MASH POTATOES should be fined $1000, lol

[BrianL99]

Ho hum, my favorite player, won't be able to take millions home to Annie, Sammie and Sofia, and the sun will shine again! I think the guy that yells MASH POTATOES should be fined $1000, lol

He's the heir to Rock'n Roland.

At least Roland was quiet.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

The process insures honesty..........and responsibility..........unlike most other sports.....

does no such thing, which is what everyone is missing. Not one player who has cheated or made an honest mistake has won a tournament, because the scorer checked the player's score against the official correct score for errors.

How does the stroke play scores get on the scoreboard for everyone to see?
from the scorer just like in match play.

When John Cook got assessed a penalty, regardless of the change since, Cookie didn't agree, but he had to go by what the official scorer told him his stroke count is. Again, not what the player would sign for as he didn't believe he hit the ball twice.

The point is, the official stroke count is kept by the scorer, and all the pga has to do is copy down what the official scorer has given them, which is what they check the score card against anyway, and have the PGA player sign the scorer's card which is electronically prepopulated from the scorer, so why the player paperwork when the official scorer has the final say and score?

because you all are arguing from a non bifurcated tradition point of view, and its time to get to the bifurcated sport, and just accept that PGA players play a different game for millions of $ than amateurs, who don't have electronic scorers, and have to rely on honesty. .

Everyone here is just parroting the traditional answers and the current process, without questioning whether performing the current process itself actually achieves the end goal.
The paperwork is totally unnecessary for the PGA tournaments with electronic score keeping and scorers. Even Marr on PGA radio made the same comment . . .

I guess none of you ever did much change management and transformation work from manual to digital, as this process would be one of the first in the corporate world. . .

[fdpaq0580]

LOL....I think we all do that!

Not me! My ball NEVER goes where I want it to. Hence, my first shot on every hole is aimed at the pin. Never had a hole in one! Never bought a round at the 19th hole! For me, unfortunately, that's braging. Still love the game, just not good at it.

[BrianL99]

does no such thing, which is what everyone is missing. Not one player who has cheated or made an honest mistake has won a tournament, because the scorer checked the player's score against the official correct score for errors.

How does the stroke play scores get on the scoreboard for everyone to see?
from the scorer just like in match play.

When John Cook got assessed a penalty, regardless of the change since, Cookie didn't agree, but he had to go by what the official scorer told him his stroke count is. Again, not what the player would sign for as he didn't believe he hit the ball twice.

The point is, the official stroke count is kept by the scorer, and all the pga has to do is copy down what the official scorer has given them, which is what they check the score card against anyway, and have the PGA player sign the scorer's card which is electronically prepopulated from the scorer, so why the player paperwork when the official scorer has the final say and score?

because you all are arguing from a non bifurcated tradition point of view, and its time to get to the bifurcated sport, and just accept that PGA players play a different game for millions of $ than amateurs, who don't have electronic scorers, and have to rely on honesty. .

Everyone here is just parroting the traditional answers and the current process, without questioning whether performing the current process itself actually achieves the end goal.
The paperwork is totally unnecessary for the PGA tournaments with electronic score keeping and scorers. Even Marr on PGA radio made the same comment . . .

I guess none of you ever did much change management and transformation work from manual to digital, as this process would be one of the first in the corporate world. . .

Your post is incorrect on so many levels. Not really being a golfer and merely watching a tournament on TV, it's easy to confuse how things actually work.

There is no "official scorer" following groups around.

There is no "official scorer" telling you if you got a penalty.

The one and only "official scorer" on the PGA Tour, is the fellow competitor who has your scorecard and tasked with keeping your score. (If playing alone, it's the "Marker"). [In the Ryder Cup or Match Play Format you mentioned, there is no "marker", nor is there a fellow competitor. There are only opponents and/or partners]

If the "Marker" and the player disagree on individual hole scores, The Committee makes the decision. There is no one else to ask, although The Committee might seek anecdotal information from someone who might have information.

People who provide scoring information to "tournament central", TV or otherwise, are in most cases, volunteers. The people carrying the standards that reflect the groups scores, are volunteers. They are not "officials" in any sense of the world. If you ever attended a PGA Tour (or any tour) event early in the morning of the last day, some players go out alone, with only a Marker and no else in their "group". (Jeff Knox being the most famous in history.)

The ONLY entity who can impose a penalty or decide if a penalty is warranted, is the PGA Tour Rules Committee, (or in the case of a Major, "The Committee"). On course, PGA Rules Officials offer guidance, the Committee (who is essentially Gary Young, former Head Professional at Pleasant Valley CC, near Worcester, MA) is the ruling body.

[SHIBUMI]

Well put.................... one of the biggest instructions to a marker, a person who electronically punches in each shot and where it occurred is: YOU ARE NOT A RULES OFFICIAL AND WILL GIVE NO ADVICE TO A PLAYER... YOU WILL CALL IN A RULES OFFICIAL..............now if the marker is the only scorekeeper who checks them?

Fast forward to more local competitions....the cell phone has become the electronic marker.........but in the end, the scorecard is the final check point... I cant tell you how many times a marker has punched in the wrong number for a wrong person. what then.....double check and triple check works, just like when you peruse your receipt in at a restaurant. Human error is the bane of technology.....


Your post is incorrect on so many levels. Not really being a golfer and merely watching a tournament on TV, it's easy to confuse how things actually work.

There is no "official scorer" following groups around.

There is no "official scorer" telling you if you got a penalty.

The one and only "official scorer" on the PGA Tour, is the fellow competitor who has your scorecard and tasked with keeping your score. (If playing alone, it's the "Marker").

If the "Marker" and the player disagree on individual hole scores, The Committee makes the decision. There is no one else to ask, although The Committee might seek anecdotal information from someone who might have information.

People who provide scoring information to "tournament central", TV or otherwise, are in most cases, volunteers. The people carrying the standards that reflect the groups scores, are volunteers. They are not "officials" in any sense of the world. If you ever attended a PGA Tour (or any tour) event early in the morning of the last day, some players go out alone, with only a Marker and no else in their "group". (Jeff Knox being the most famous in history.)

The ONLY entity who can impose a penalty or decide if a penalty is warranted, is the PGA Tour Rules Committee, (or in the case of a Major, "The Committee"). On course, PGA Rules Officials offer guidance, the Committee (who is essentially Gary Young, former Head Professional at Pleasant Valley CC, near Worcester, MA) is the ruling body.

[Golfer222]

I am sure Spieth blamed his caddie Michael- as he does for everything else

[justjim]

To err is human, to forgive divine. In Jordan’s case, forgive himself for such a dumb mistake.

[jebartle]

He's the heir to Rock'n Roland.

At least Roland was quiet.


Oh my!!!!!

[MrChip72]

I wish the pro game that I'm watching on the television mirrored more closely to the game that I play on the course with my buddies.

1 mulligan per round, playing "ready golf", driving golf carts, having side bets on holes and individual shots, allow gimme's inside 2 feet. Would be a more exciting game to watch.