Revenue from Championship Golf in The Villages

[Warren Schimpf]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

[Dond1959]

1. Your guess is as bad as mine. Why not go talk to the guy and report back?
2. They can care less about your group’s puny amount of money. This is a multi billion organization and your total is probably less than 3 new home sales of profit. If a massive number of people don’t play and there is a hit to profits then the developer could easily sell the championship courses and be done with them and focus on what they do, build houses.

[dewilson58]

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

Not going to get the answers here.

Probably need to ask Mr. Williams or his boss. :wave:

[Bogie Shooter]

Not going to get the answers here.

Probably need to ask Mr. Williams or his boss. :wave:

They never follow this advice and report back.🤷

[dewilson58]

They never follow this advice and report back.🤷

Sometimes I think they really don't want answers...............they jus want to complain.

:pepper2::pepper2:

[kkingston57]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

Good ideas but you night check your #s. If you played elsewhere enhancement fees do not go to the other courses. Your summer green fees exceed winter fees. Summer is +/- 20% less and probably less players. Bet course restaurants/bars are contracted and restaurant loses the money. Worst part is that if demand stays high other people will take your place. Who ever takes care of Glenview should take over all of the other courses. Best place to play in TV

[BrianL99]

Good ideas but you night check your #s.
Who ever takes care of Glenview should take over all of the other courses. Best place to play in TV

It's declined fast.

There's apparently a new contractor handling GlenView. It was top notch a month ago, now it's falling down the list. On a positive note, they did invest in some more green paint last week.

[tophcfa]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

I suspect other groups are already taking their business elsewhere as you suggested. I have noticed two things about getting t times this winter. First, it has never been more difficult to get t times at Executives. Second, it has never been easier to get times at the Championship courses. I have guests coming tomorrow and have already gotten my requests filled for the next three days at Championship courses. On each request I got my first choice of courses at the exact time I requested, with three guests and I am not a priority member. That’s never happened before which has to mean something?

[Mrmean58]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

You need to look deeper into the Golf Ops Org where those decisions are made to get your answers.

[elle123]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?
The Villages big marketing ploy is free (very cheap) golf on executive courses and nothing more. The golf courses are probably a pain to maintain and operate. They'd probably get rid of most golf courses if they were certain it wouldn't effect home sales.

[WharfRat]

It feels like a ripoff when you play a course like Palmer, Evans or Havana right now. Online reviews are helpful in knowing what courses to avoid. It’s unfortunate that one has to exercise such diligence to play in TV nowadays. I’ve had good experiences with Continental, Eagle Ridge, The Links at Spruce Creek, Harbor Hills, CC of Mt Dora, and Black Bear. There are others out there, but you’ve got to check for recent reviews to avoid potentially poor conditions.

[TomPerry]

Did you contact David Williams to ask him your questions before making this post?

[BrianL99]

The Villages big marketing ploy is free (very cheap) golf on executive courses and nothing more. The golf courses are probably a pain to maintain and operate. They'd probably get rid of most golf courses if they were certain it wouldn't effect home sales.

If you notice, the words "championship golf" is in the title of this thread.

The championship courses bring in over $75,000,000 year in revenue. That's a real pain, huh?

[Papa_lecki]

The Villages big marketing ploy is free (very cheap) golf on executive courses and nothing more. The golf courses are probably a pain to maintain and operate. They'd probably get rid of most golf courses if they were certain it wouldn't effect home sales.

The golf courses are part of the civil engineering water management. They need the open space to handle the water for large rains of hurricanes.
It doesn’t hurt that the “retention ponds” (i.e. golf courses) help sell the lifestyle and the homes.

[crash]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

It seems like you do not realize the championship courses are privately run not the Villages run. The executive courses are run by the districts and are free golf what do you expect. I live on an executive golf course and there are at least 2 people out there everyday doing maintenance. If the golfers stayed off the grass, fixed their pock marks, sanded their divots on the tees and raked the trap the courses might be in better shape. I would say only about 10% do those things and most of the golfers do none of them.

[crash]

The Villages big marketing ploy is free (very cheap) golf on executive courses and nothing more. The golf courses are probably a pain to maintain and operate. They'd probably get rid of most golf courses if they were certain it wouldn't effect home sales.
The executives are owned by the districts so not sure what pain he would get rid of. The championship courses are owned by the developer and leased out to private businesses to run. If the developer is not making money on the championship courses he will shut them down and build houses on them. He has done that before.

[mkjelenbaas]

Go to Harbor Hills - they would like that revenue and that course is in great shape and green fees are much less!! Win - win!!0

[Cbriggi]

Go to Harbor Hills - they would like that revenue and that course is in great shape and green fees are much less!! Win - win!!0

Agree that Harbor Hills is in great shape, challenging greens, but 5+ hour play time!!! And they will NOT push groups to go faster.
Choose the devil you know…

[LonnyP]

I have never seen 3- 4some's on the same hole unless it is a par 5 and play has slowed. Your money calculation is peanuts and means nothing to them.

[mike234]

1. Your guess is as bad as mine. Why not go talk to the guy and report back?
2. They can care less about your group’s puny amount of money. This is a multi billion organization and your total is probably less than 3 new home sales of profit. If a massive number of people don’t play and there is a hit to profits then the developer could easily sell the championship courses and be done with them and focus on what they do, build houses.
yup, build houses. and build houses on golf courses that aren't being played on....you know, bulldoze them over and build build build...nothing can stop it...

[SHIBUMI]

Put your finger in a glass of water. When you pull it out does it leave a hole. If it does you are special. Usually it won't and that goes for your groups revenue. Pull it out and it will get filled by someone else. Your not special!

Let us not forget that this is the winter time. The grass, like your lawn, is not pushing up as much. In the spring, summer and fall, the grass will grow more and the conditions will be great. What do you think the conditions are up north right now?

Groups are great to play in but eventually they think they own the place. Again you are not special. To expect pristine conditions in the winter is to expect that liver will taste like prime rib. Again, take a look at your lawn, it ain't pristine.

People up north would just be grateful to get on their golf course. Life, like golf, is damaged by your expectancy level. When it is too high you will get disappointed. Chill out and enjoy your winter golf. I said winter golf. Grass don't grow well in the winter.

To have a nice group to play and eat with is a blessing. You are blessed, enjoy that. I have NEVER had a 5 1/2 hour round of golf in the Villages. At the most its been
4 1/2, usually 4. Maybe if you improve your game it won't take you so long. Or move back on the mens tee. The time you feel it takes to play a round of golf is never the actual time. It is a spacial time thing that always feels longer once you get held up a little.

Nice try, BUT, little sympathy here.:pepper2:


Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

[Steve]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

I have a theory...and it's only a theory...that The Villages aren't really too concerned about the actual golfing community as long as the courses look good from the street. The golf courses are a sales tool to get potential buyers salivating about "more holes of golf than any development in the world." Once you sign on the dotted line you're hooked and after the newness of driving your own golf cart to the "Country Club" wears off you start looking around at courses outside TV and head there. I've been here 19 years come May and it was about five years after I got here that I started noticing how less expensive it is to play outside TV and also how the courses were not maintained the way they should be. I still play three times a week, but not at any of the "country clubs" of which I am a "member".

[sdeikenberry]

[QUOTE=Warren Schimpf;2304766]Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

To the author: your numbers seem a bit off. I track my expenses on Quicken. I play twice a week and run two groups of up to 20 guys. In the past 12 months I've spent $6,366 on golf...priority membership, green fees, and purchasing balls. Outside the bubble if I joined a country club I'd spend about the same money over a 12 month period...but here I have 13 championship courses to choose from, and I can drive my own cart set up the way I want to play the course.

It is frustrating when we're a group that moves along at a good pace and those ahead of us are slower but "on time." We almost never have a round take longer than 4 hours 15 minutes and frequently we get in at 4 hours or a bit less. But we play early...0730-0815 tee times...and usually earlier tee times are occupied by golfers who move along. Slower player usually play later in the morning or in the afternoons.

It is true about the sandtraps. When I came to TV in 2013 they were grooming traps all the time...now they rarely groom them. The level of workers taking care of the courses has also declined. When I came here they would stop and wait for a golfer to hit a shot. Now they mostly just continue their work/travel when we are hitting a ball. To be fair, some do stop and wait, but most don't. We have to yell at workers working in the fairways to get out of the way so we can hit. Same for the rare times they are grooming greenside traps...they don't stop because we are hitting onto the green.

Pins are a problem also. Mostly they do not tamp down the ground around the pin and the hole cutters are mostly dull, leaving a ragged pin rim. The problem with not tamping the ground appropriately is a ball rolling slowly to the cup will veer off if the ground is raised around the cup. We see this all the time. Yes, we've talked to grounds managers about it, they admit it's a problem, they say they will do better...they don't. It is what it is.

I was in a traveling group for about a year also. When you consider the drive time, the playing time, and lunch after the round, it adds up to an 8 hour day unless you only play courses close to TV. Plus you are not using your own cart set up the way you want it for golf.

Overall, TV courses get a lot of play, even with the lower number of reservations this year. At the money we spent yearly to play a choice of 13 courses...it's a good deal.

[Papa_lecki]

The executives are owned by the districts so not sure what pain he would get rid of. The championship courses are owned by the developer and leased out to private businesses to run. If the developer is not making money on the championship courses he will shut them down and build houses on them. He has done that before.

I am curious, where has the developer bulldozed a golf course and built homes?

[BrianL99]

I am curious, where has the developer bulldozed a golf course and built homes?

I'm glad I read the entire thread to the last post, before I posted the exact same question.

I haven't been around TV long, but I've never heard of a golf course in TV being bulldozed.

Just a guess, but I doubt the CDD approval for the various districts would allow a golf course to be bulldozed and turned into houses. At least not without a major battle.

[tophcfa]

I am curious, where has the developer bulldozed a golf course and built homes?

I'm glad I read the entire thread to the last post, before I posted the exact same question.

I haven't been around TV long, but I've never heard of a golf course in TV being bulldozed.

Just a guess, but I doubt the CDD approval for the various districts would allow a golf course to be bulldozed and turned into houses. At least not without a major battle.

No courses have been bulldozed and it’s highly unlikely it will ever happen (at least to build homes) because the courses are designed as emergency flood plains. Anyone who was here during hurricane Irma should remember the courses being closed for several days, many underwater, with the sprinklers running 24/7 to lower the retention ponds in case another storm blew through. That being said, the clubhouse, restaurant, pool, tennis courts, etc… at the Hacienda Hills Championship course were bulldozed and they are building Villas and a stand alone pro shop where the facilities once stood.

[drcar]

I am curious, where has the developer bulldozed a golf course and built homes?

NO they have not

[drcar]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?
Interesting numbers!
BUT not correct, they are based on what you believe to be true.
BTW David Williams has NOTHING to do with the course maintenance, direct your comments to Rick Craig
The courses in the villages are PACKED
I DO agreed that a couple of the courses are in VERY POOR shape, BUT I just don't book my group there!
AND the old saying "Money talks and BULL.... walks"
The courses are full!

[Marathon Man]

The executives are owned by the districts so not sure what pain he would get rid of. The championship courses are owned by the developer and leased out to private businesses to run. If the developer is not making money on the championship courses he will shut them down and build houses on them. He has done that before.

Where has the developer shut down a golf course and built houses in its place????

[Papa_lecki]

No courses have been bulldozed and it’s highly unlikely it will ever happen (at least to build homes) because the courses are designed as emergency flood plains. Anyone who was here during hurricane Irma should remember the courses being closed for several days, many underwater, with the sprinklers running 24/7 to lower the retention ponds in case another storm blew through. That being said, the clubhouse, restaurant, pool, tennis courts, etc… at the Hacienda Hills Championship course were bulldozed and they are building Villas and a stand alone pro shop where the facilities once stood.

And they replaced the pool and tennis court with the Cordoba Rec Center Complex (pool, tennis courts, etc). The concept of the country club pool membership was novel, but not a great idea. We had the pool membership for a year, the CC pools were always empty.
Once we built our own pool, not necessary.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Put your finger in a glass of water. When you pull it out does it leave a hole. If it does you are special. Usually it won't and that goes for your groups revenue. Pull it out and it will get filled by someone else. Your not special!

Let us not forget that this is the winter time. The grass, like your lawn, is not pushing up as much. In the spring, summer and fall, the grass will grow more and the conditions will be great. What do you think the conditions are up north right now?

Groups are great to play in but eventually they think they own the place. Again you are not special. To expect pristine conditions in the winter is to expect that liver will taste like prime rib. Again, take a look at your lawn, it ain't pristine.

People up north would just be grateful to get on their golf course. Life, like golf, is damaged by your expectancy level. When it is too high you will get disappointed. Chill out and enjoy your winter golf. I said winter golf. Grass don't grow well in the winter.

To have a nice group to play and eat with is a blessing. You are blessed, enjoy that. I have NEVER had a 5 1/2 hour round of golf in the Villages. At the most its been
4 1/2, usually 4. Maybe if you improve your game it won't take you so long. Or move back on the mens tee. The time you feel it takes to play a round of golf is never the actual time. It is a spacial time thing that always feels longer once you get held up a little.

Nice try, BUT, little sympathy here.:pepper2:

Good post. The OP is just one of the privileged entitled that fantasizes everything has to fall in line with his nonsensical thinking.

[golfing eagles]

NO they have not

And yet the rumor has begun........:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[tbatterman]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?
Is it possible the greens conditions have to do with the unseasonably cool weather we have had the last couple months? I wonder if certain types of grass on the greens hasn't been able to grow in this weather? I played Harbor Hills just outside the Villages this weekend and the greens were great. I've played Hacienda and Southern Oaks inside the Villages and the greens were great. So some are fine and some are not with the same weather? To me that clearly says either different types of grass responding differently to weather conditions or different qualities of golf course management.

[rjn5656]

Why not send a letter to the Morse's asking that question?

[gighilton]

Revenue from a group of 20 Residents who play 2 x week, year round based on a low-average of 16/20 players.

Enhancement Memberships $16,160
Winter - Greens Fees $34,608
Summer - Green Fees $37,120
Restaurant - $32,000
Total Revenue $119,888

1. First there was a cut-back in how often our sand traps were raked.
2. Now there are several courses that are practically unplayable due to the condition of the greens.
3. We are experiencing 5-hour rounds of golf since some Ambassadors who when are asked why 3, 4-somes are on the same hole they reply with "Everyone's On Time" - Obviously not true.

Which leads us to the question -
1. Why has David Williams, our Golf Operations Manager and the Course Superintendents allowed this to happen and what is being done to correct it?
2. Do you think they would care more if our group, like others, decided to play "out-side" of The Villages and lose the $120,000 of revenue ?

Management of the various facilities is the issue. slow play is always a problem, and the same with maintenance. Greenskeepers can make mistakes applying chemicals, or applying the wrong chemicals at the wrong time, and slow play will be here forever. This isn't an excuse, but a reality. Doesn't mean that better management can mitigate this issues you bring up...The money aspect is DOA!

[ernpertuc]

Sometimes the simplest response is the best. Too many "entitled golfers" who don't give a crap about who p[lays next.

[justjim]

No courses have been bulldozed and it’s highly unlikely it will ever happen (at least to build homes) because the courses are designed as emergency flood plains. Anyone who was here during hurricane Irma should remember the courses being closed for several days, many underwater, with the sprinklers running 24/7 to lower the retention ponds in case another storm blew through. That being said, the clubhouse, restaurant, pool, tennis courts, etc… at the Hacienda Hills Championship course were bulldozed and they are building Villas and a stand alone pro shop where the facilities once stood.

Spot on…. And I’ve heard the rumor regarding the Polo Fields. Going to be replaced? Yes, the Village Developer makes changes as they see fit.