Executive Golf Course Conditions

[DALEPQ]

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

[alwann]

Matter of fact, a professional course manager was hired several season ago.

Mitch.Leininger@districtgov.org or call 352-674-1885.

I'm sure he's heard it all. I hope he gets the necessary budget to make improvements.

[Gpsma]

Golfers complaints are now almost exceeding dog poop complaints

[xkeowner]

Golfers complaints are now almost exceeding dog poop complaints

Lots of smart retirees here in The Villages. Maybe one of them an come up with a way to process the dog poop into a solution to fix the poor green conditions?

[village dreamer]

Lots of smart retirees here in The Villages. Maybe one of them an come up with a way to process the dog poop into a solution to fix the poor green conditions?
use the dog poop as a fertilizer:spoken:

[alwann]

Matter of fact, a professional course manager was hired several season ago.

Mitch.Leininger@districtgov.org or call 352-674-1885.

I'm sure he's heard it all. I hope he gets the necessary budget to make improvements.

[vintageogauge]

Is there a problem with south of 44 golfers playing north or are only north of 44 golfers allowed to play up there?

[Bogie Shooter]

Is there a problem with south of 44 golfers playing north or are only north of 44 golfers allowed to play up there?

I was wondering that too. Sometimes those DA statements need to be called out.

[BrianL99]

Matter of fact, a professional course manager was hired several season ago.

Mitch.Leininger@districtgov.org or call 352-674-1885.

I'm sure he's heard it all. I hope he gets the necessary budget to make improvements.

Coming to The Villages, was a huge step up in his career. He hadn't been a superintendent for very long and never for something approaching the complexity of The Villages.

[DALEPQ]

If we have a professional, what are his quilifcations, and why are the courses getting worse and being closed? Shouldn't they be getting better???
Also, nothing against more from south of 44 coming to play. All from T.V. can play on any
course, what was the meaning is that more are playing and there are 6 closed courses.

[mntlblok]

Coming to The Villages, was a huge step up in his career. He hadn't been a superintendent for very long and never for something approaching the complexity of The Villages.

Have you insights to share concerning current conditions - like those Tarpon Boil greens, such as obvious missteps that might've been made due to lack of "complexity understanding"?

Have now sent inquiries to the two email addresses listed in this thread.

There've also been some mentions of an adequate budget in this thread. Is there a "Reader's Digest" summary somewhere of how such budget decisions are made and the sources of the funds for that budget? TIA

[bowlingal]

DALE....so not true!! Hawkes Bay greens were great. Saddlebrook was not as good, but better than the courses further south

[Papa_lecki]

Matter of fact, a professional course manager was hired several season ago.

Mitch.Leininger@districtgov.org or call 352-674-1885.

I'm sure he's heard it all. I hope he gets the necessary budget to make improvements.

He has a decent resume, growing from one job to another. My concern is he’s been here since 2019, and the courses haven’t improved.

His certificate in turf grass is from Penn State, one of the best in the country.

My solution would be to have 4 Mitches, one for each section of the Villages.
I just hope he is empowered to run the executives

[Justputt]

It's hard to image the courses in TV get more play than those in Myrtle Beach and they have always looked great, even in high season.

[DALEPQ]

Disagree on Hawkes Bay being great, played it 3 times in Feb. NOT GREAT in my view, guess we all look at it differently.

[bagboy]

Coming to The Villages, was a huge step up in his career. He hadn't been a superintendent for very long and never for something approaching the complexity of The Villages.

Mitch Leininger spent the first eleven plus years after college in logistics for the airline industry, not using his turf management degree. He has recent superintendent experience at a resort course with most likely a big budget and lots of experienced folks to rely on. IMO, it was a stretch to hire him to oversee our execs. And now, he is being supervised by someone with thirty years Coast Guard experience. Something seems amiss in the decision making process. Again, just my opinion.

[PaintedHills]

DALE....so not true!! Hawkes Bay greens were great. Saddlebrook was not as good, but better than the courses further south

I played Hawks Bay on the 29th. The greens were in poor shape, as bad as Evans Prairie

[ThirdOfFive]

Just got back from a round at Hilltop. Greens in excellent shape; fairways a bit spotty here and there but overall not too bad.

[BrianL99]

Mitch Leininger spent the first eleven plus years after college in logistics for the airline industry, not using his turf management degree. He has recent superintendent experience at a resort course with most likely a big budget and lots of experienced folks to rely on. IMO, it was a stretch to hire him to oversee our execs. And now, he is being supervised by someone with thirty years Coast Guard experience. Something seems amiss in the decision making process. Again, just my opinion.

I obviously haven't seen a resume, only his LinkedIn.

I don't think he has a college degree and if he does, I doubt it's in Turf Management. His LinkedIn says he has a "Certificate" in Turf Manaagement from Penn State.

The Certificate Program at Penn State is offered to Golf Superintendents around the country. It's a "course", not a program. If I'm not mistaken, it's an online course that costs about $5000.

If that's indeed what he has, it's a long way away from a Turf Management Degree, from the #1 Agronomy program in the world.

[golfing eagles]

I obviously haven't seen a resume, only his LinkedIn.

I don't think he has a college degree and if he does, I doubt it's in Turf Management. His LinkedIn says he has a "Certificate" in Turf Manaagement from Penn State.

The Certificate Program at Penn State is offered to Golf Superintendents around the country. It's a "course", not a program. If I'm not mistaken, it's an online course that costs about $5000.

If that's indeed what he has, it's a long way away from a Turf Management Degree, from the #1 Agronomy program in the world.

I rarely play execs, but had a few hours today and played gray fox for the first time. Not a bad layout as these course go and I liked the fact that there were adjacent homes on only 2 holes. The greens actually ran fairly true and fast, but......as the old saying goes, you can paint dirt green, but in the end, it's still dirt.

[Papa_lecki]

I obviously haven't seen a resume, only his LinkedIn.

I don't think he has a college degree and if he does, I doubt it's in Turf Management. His LinkedIn says he has a "Certificate" in Turf Manaagement from Penn State.

The Certificate Program at Penn State is offered to Golf Superintendents around the country. It's a "course", not a program. If I'm not mistaken, it's an online course that costs about $5000.

If that's indeed what he has, it's a long way away from a Turf Management Degree, from the #1 Agronomy program in the world.
Penn State Dow hav e 2 year program, that results in a certificate form the turf grass program.
Golf Course Turfgrass Management Program — Undergraduate — Department of Plant Science (https://plantscience.psu.edu/undergraduate/additional-programs/golf)

[Karadad]

Just played Walnut Grove. Greens great, real grass, however kind of slow. Not dirt!!!

[BrianL99]

I rarely play execs, but had a few hours today and played gray fox for the first time. Not a bad layout as these course go and I liked the fact that there were adjacent homes on only 2 holes. The greens actually ran fairly true and fast, but......as the old saying goes, you can paint dirt green, but in the end, it's still dirt.

I played Palmer. Laurel is still improving, but the greens aren't very fast.

Riley's been Top Dressed and running about 7.5. Generally, Top Dressing on Bermuda is done in the summer or if done in cooler months, only a very light application is made. I suspect the point of the Top Dressing this week, was to level out and smooth the greens, where they've lost grass.

[BrianL99]

Penn State Dow hav e 2 year program, that results in a certificate form the turf grass program.
Golf Course Turfgrass Management Program — Undergraduate — Department of Plant Science (https://plantscience.psu.edu/undergraduate/additional-programs/golf)


I guessed it was this one: Turfgrass Management, Basic Undergraduate Certificate Online - Penn State World Campus (https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/penn-state-online-turfgrass-management-basic-undergraduate-certificate)

If he went to Penn State got a legitimate in-house Certificate/Degree from Penn State School of Agronomy, he should see if he can get his money back. I wouldn't be so harsh if he was new to the job, but after 4 years of deteriorating conditions, it's too long running to be blamed on the last guy.

So someone here knows the answer to this question. The pay rate of public employees (CDD) are public information. I understand (sort of) that the relationship of the CDD's and various outside contractors is confusing and convoluted. Who exactly does Ricky Craig and/or Mitch Leininger actually work for and what do they get paid?

I'm guessing they're vastly under-paid for the marketplace at large. Quality Superintendents make good money these days. Not like it was 10 years ago, but a good super at a private course in the Northeast is at least $125K-$175K. The nationwide average for private courses is over $115,000. I doubt TV is paying anywhere near that kind of money.

[sheena0904]

I guessed it was this one: Turfgrass Management, Basic Undergraduate Certificate Online - Penn State World Campus (https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/penn-state-online-turfgrass-management-basic-undergraduate-certificate)

If he went to Penn State got a legitimate in-house Certificate/Degree from Penn State School of Agronomy, he should see if he can get his money back. I wouldn't be so harsh if he was new to the job, but after 4 years of deteriorating conditions, it's too long running to be blamed on the last guy.

So someone here knows the answer to this question. The pay rate of public employees (CDD) are public information. I understand (sort of) that the relationship of the CDD's and various outside contractors is confusing and convoluted. Who exactly does Ricky Craig and/or Mitch Leininger actually work for and what do they get paid?

I'm guessing they're vastly under-paid for the marketplace at large. Quality Superintendents make good money these days. Not like it was 10 years ago, but a good super at a private course in the Northeast is at least $125K-$175K. The nationwide average for private courses is over $115,000. I doubt TV is paying anywhere near that kind of money.
I have to disagree with your statement blaming Mitch. If you notice all the courses that are NOT being complained about all have a common theme. Those courses have been renovated since Mitch has come on board in 2019.

[BrianL99]

I have to disagree with your statement blaming Mitch. If you notice all the courses that are NOT being complained about all have a common theme. Those courses have been renovated since Mitch has come on board in 2019.

I guess I would see it as the opposite. There shouldn't be as much complaining about recently renovated courses. They should be in decent shape. To say nothing of the fact, that courses shouldn't have to go through a major renovated every 10-15 years.

If he's the guy in charge and the courses aren't in acceptable condition, who should get blamed? The Ambassadors? The Starters? The guys mowing the grass?

Edit:

The Amenities Authority Committee (AAC) budgeted $1.9M for the renovation of Chula Vista and Amberwood [https://www.**************.com/2024/03/01/aac-to-consider-1-4-million-upgrade-for-two-executive-golf-courses/]

The low bidder, came in at $1.4M ... the AAC is considering it.

The low bidder was a company called Landirr Inc, out of Sanford.

Likely in anticipation of this contract, Landirr Inc is advertising for a Project Manager / Superintendent Golf Course Construction.

IMO, the Job Description is ridiculous. They want to hire a Project Manager, who's also an on-site Job Superintendent, as well as a heavy equipment operator. []Just a moment... (https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Landirr,-Inc-1/jobs?jk=0bf89a65e8a4ea3c&start=0&clearPrefilter=1). Curiously, the Job Posting doesn't require the applicant to have experience with Project Management/Scheduling Software.

I can't imagine doing $1.4M public bid, construction job, without a Project Manager at least 1/2 time and I would want a full-time, on-site Superintendent ... who's not spending time, operating equipment and installing irrigation. Will the AAC hire a "Clerk of the Works" to oversee the job? I suspect not, but I don't know.

In the inflationary market we're in right now, how does a labor intensive bid, come in at 25% under budget?

[tophcfa]

Is there a problem with south of 44 golfers playing north or are only north of 44 golfers allowed to play up there?

The problem isn’t the golfers going north to play, they have to go where the courses are. Who can fault that? The problem is that they continue to build a crap load of houses without adding nearly enough golf, resulting in a free fall of the ratio of available golf holes per rooftop.

[kkingston57]

Golfers complaints are now almost exceeding dog poop complaints

Forgot about the road conditions on Morse north of 466 and Costco

[kkingston57]

Just got back from a round at Hilltop. Greens in excellent shape; fairways a bit spotty here and there but overall not too bad.

Hilltop was completely re grassed in 2023

[dhdallas]

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

Why don't you golfers file a class action lawsuit against TV? You are paying for an amenity that TV promotes to prospective buyers but in reality is failing to provide for current residents. Complaining and writing letters will only get you hollow promises.

[wamley]

I don't know if new course Super is compitant or not, but the budget doesn't seem to be there for the extreme number of executive golf courses that are unplayable. The greens in the trio Bonita, Red Fish Run and Tarpon Boil all discusting condition. Can't put a ball along any line chosen without it moving left & right and imposible to figure out the speed with spots of grass and most areas rolled dirt.Really terrible. Many fo the Championship nines are in poor condition as well. Some that just had their greens replaced in the last few years. $70 -$75 is rediculous and you use your own golf cart.

[lawgolfer]

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

Let's all agree that the greens at all the courses, championship as well as executive, are not good. In some instances, they are horrible. I don't know who to blame; instead, I'm more interested in fixing the problems than fixing the blame.

Before I moved to TV, if someone had told me that there is a problem in growing grass in central Florida, I would have laughed. However, we clearly have a problem in TV.

The USGA has a group of experienced professionals that are available for golf courses to consult with and to make recommendations which range from the variety of grasses, irrigations systems, to maintenance. The Villages would do well to hire the USGA.

I bemoan the disregard many golfers in TV have for the courses, including not filling divots, fixing ball marks, and driving carts where they do not belong. As troubling as the practices of many golfers is, the fact is that these things do not completely destroy greens as is currently happening.

[WingedFoot78]

I don't know if new course Super is compitant or not, but the budget doesn't seem to be there for the extreme number of executive golf courses that are unplayable. The greens in the trio Bonita, Red Fish Run and Tarpon Boil all discusting condition. Can't put a ball along any line chosen without it moving left & right and imposible to figure out the speed with spots of grass and most areas rolled dirt.Really terrible. Many fo the Championship nines are in poor condition as well. Some that just had their greens replaced in the last few years. $70 -$75 is rediculous and you use your own golf cart.

What will the conditions of the courses be like in 3 to 5 years? TV are not keeping up with home and golf course construction. There were 12 championship and 40 Executive courses before the building boom south of 44 started. How many new families have moved in since then. How many new courses have been built in that time. Don't count the pitch 'n putts & putt putt. They are not real courses and should not be counted in the total holes that TV like to brag about.

I have had to give up golf due to medical reasons. In the past 20 months, the course conditions have deteriorated, course closures have increased, and tee times are becoming harder to get according what I read on TOTV.

Maybe the powers that be should slow down the new home construction and let the GC construction catch up to the needs of golfing community, both in new courses and in the the conditions of the existing courses. Word will get out that TV's golf is having issues.

[BrianL99]

What will the conditions of the courses be like in 3 to 5 years? TV are not keeping up with home and golf course construction. There were 12 championship and 40 Executive courses before the building boom south of 44 started. How many new families have moved in since then. How many new courses have been built in that time. Don't count the pitch 'n putts & putt putt. They are not real courses and should not be counted in the total holes that TV like to brag about.

I have had to give up golf due to medical reasons. In the past 20 months, the course conditions have deteriorated, course closures have increased, and tee times are becoming harder to get according what I read on TOTV.

Maybe the powers that be should slow down the new home construction and let the GC construction catch up to the needs of golfing community, both in new courses and in the the conditions of the existing courses. Word will get out that TV's golf is having issues.

I think it's even worse than you suggest. It seems there are always courses being "renovated", which seems to mean, torn up and the grass replaced and bunkers re-worked.

I take it from your name, you were probably a member of Winged Foot? If I'm not mistaken, Winged Foot went over 90 years, without a major renovation (other than some greens/bunker work). Day after day, week after week, winter or summer, those golf courses have been maintained. "Deferred maintenance" or lack of daily attention, is the road to ruination in the golf course business.

[cvmullin]

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

Has anyone started a FB page for green conditions in TV? Seems to be way overdue. Would like to enjoy the rounds I pay for but Ill go to Continental if need be.

[mntlblok]

Let's all agree that the greens at all the courses, championship as well as executive, are not good. In some instances, they are horrible. I don't know who to blame; instead, I'm more interested in fixing the problems than fixing the blame.

Before I moved to TV, if someone had told me that there is a problem in growing grass in central Florida, I would have laughed. However, we clearly have a problem in TV.

The USGA has a group of experienced professionals that are available for golf courses to consult with and to make recommendations which range from the variety of grasses, irrigations systems, to maintenance. The Villages would do well to hire the USGA.

I bemoan the disregard many golfers in TV have for the courses, including not filling divots, fixing ball marks, and driving carts where they do not belong. As troubling as the practices of many golfers is, the fact is that these things do not completely destroy greens as is currently happening.

I wrote to a couple of the email addresses posted here, primarily wondering if a fungus had been the culprit as had been speculated here. Got a surprisingly long response from one of them. The interesting part was this:

"As for Tarpon we are not sure why some of the greens are in worse conditions than others. We have sent soil samples out to check it there is a disease and we have not gotten the results back". I then suggested that sharing his info in a public forum might be a good idea. . .

I lived for many years in a golf community in Savannah. It was standard practice there to overseed those Bermuda greens (and sometimes the fairways) during the dormant periods. I think I just read somewhere that at least some tee boxes here get at least some degree of rye overseeding.

I have no idea whether that is done here on the championships' greens, but pretty certain it isn't on the executives. When I first saw the remaining green patches on those Tarpon Boil greens, it brought to mind overseeded rye, and my initial assumption was that this was a case of overseeding "failing to completely take". IIRC, it looked like those bright green, rye grass-looking patches hadn't been recently mown, either. Pondered some possible reasons for why that might be, but by the time I finished that nine I was mostly just confused.

Are the championship course greens here overseeded in the winter? TIA

[Vermilion Villager]

I was wondering that too. Sometimes those DA statements need to be called out.
I think the OP was referred to golfers who live south of 44 where all of the new homes are being built now coming up north to golf because the lack of courses yet to be built. I have noticed that the courses in the far north of the villages are actually being underutilized. Several weeks now I've golfed Walnut Grove and others up north. Every single time we've gotten off early. The starter told me almost every day there is a significant amount of open teetimes in the north golf courses… For some of you it may be It may be worth the drive

[mntlblok]

Have been enjoying this fellow's videos of his play of our courses. This one shows the Redfish Run greens from a week or so back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On4ExzVQLj0

[BrianL99]

I wrote to a couple of the email addresses posted here, primarily wondering if a fungus had been the culprit as had been speculated here. Got a surprisingly long response from one of them. The interesting part was this:

"As for Tarpon we are not sure why some of the greens are in worse conditions than others. We have sent soil samples out to check it there is a disease and we have not gotten the results back". I then suggested that sharing his info in a public forum might be a good idea. . .

I lived for many years in a golf community in Savannah. It was standard practice there to overseed those Bermuda greens (and sometimes the fairways) during the dormant periods. I think I just read somewhere that at least some tee boxes here get at least some degree of rye overseeding.

I have no idea whether that is done here on the championships' greens, but pretty certain it isn't on the executives. When I first saw the remaining green patches on those Tarpon Boil greens, it brought to mind overseeded rye, and my initial assumption was that this was a case of overseeding "failing to completely take". IIRC, it looked like those bright green, rye grass-looking patches hadn't been recently mown, either. Pondered some possible reasons for why that might be, but by the time I finished that nine I was mostly just confused.

Are the championship course greens here overseeded in the winter? TIA

I understand The Villages used to over-seed at least the Championship Courses, but have been told it's no longer done, anywhere in TV. What you're probably seeing, is small patches of annual rye, that's come in from someone's shoes or the wind or whatever. (I have seen some Tee Boxes on the Championship courses, that there seems to more than an incidental amount of Annual Rye and maybe some Bluegrass mixed in.)

Were you at The Landings? I almost bought there. Plenty of good golf to be had.

[mntlblok]

I understand The Villages used to over-seed at least the Championship Courses, but have been told it's no longer done, anywhere in TV. What you're probably seeing, is small patches of annual rye, that's come in from someone's shoes or the wind or whatever. (I have seen some Tee Boxes on the Championship courses, that there seems to more than an incidental amount of Annual Rye and maybe some Bluegrass mixed in.)

Were you at The Landings? I almost bought there. Plenty of good golf to be had.
Had no idea there were "annual" ryes, and hadn't considered the possibility that the greens here might have other grasses mixed in with the Bermuda. But, that could make a lot of sense, now that I think about it. I'm also learning that I'm not that good at identifying different grass species.

Got here last May and presumed that our new yard was nothing but a wonderful version of zoysia. It's since become clear that there's tons of Bermuda mixed in. Did some home grown "plugging" from another part of the yard after a successful treatment for mole crickets (excellent diagnosis and treatment by Dean's). It "appears" that this zoysia doesn't go dormant (it's still bright green) - at least not in a manner that resembles what the Bermuda does. My plugs seem to have filled in nicely, at least laterally, but it looks like it could be years before it reaches mowing height. :-)

Lived at The Landings for 36 years. Our builder let me experiment with a finer blade zoysia. One of my many failed experiments. :-) The Club did try a wider blade zoysia around the bunkers and tee boxes for a couple of the new courses, but it apparently just doesn't grow back fast enough to be suitable, at least in that area. Have researched getting rid of the Bermuda in the lawn, but it's looking like a no-go.

[kkingston57]

I wrote to a couple of the email addresses posted here, primarily wondering if a fungus had been the culprit as had been speculated here. Got a surprisingly long response from one of them. The interesting part was this:

"As for Tarpon we are not sure why some of the greens are in worse conditions than others. We have sent soil samples out to check it there is a disease and we have not gotten the results back". I then suggested that sharing his info in a public forum might be a good idea. . .

I lived for many years in a golf community in Savannah. It was standard practice there to overseed those Bermuda greens (and sometimes the fairways) during the dormant periods. I think I just read somewhere that at least some tee boxes here get at least some degree of rye overseeding.

I have no idea whether that is done here on the championships' greens, but pretty certain it isn't on the executives. When I first saw the remaining green patches on those Tarpon Boil greens, it brought to mind overseeded rye, and my initial assumption was that this was a case of overseeding "failing to completely take". IIRC, it looked like those bright green, rye grass-looking patches hadn't been recently mown, either. Pondered some possible reasons for why that might be, but by the time I finished that nine I was mostly just confused.

Are the championship course greens here overseeded in the winter? TIA

Answer to your last question. NO. ++s and ----s on over seeding. when they are growing in and dying off there are 2 months of BAD greens but pretty and smooth during the cold months(time of most play) This year on the Champ courses they have been in good condition except for Havana and Evans

[BrianL99]

Answer to your last question. NO. ++s and ----s on over seeding. when they are growing in and dying off there are 2 months of BAD greens but pretty and smooth during the cold months(time of most play) This year on the Champ courses they have been in good condition except for Havana and Evans

Have you played any of the courses in The Villages over the last 3 months?

The Greens are atrocious, on most every Championship Golf Course. EP doesn't have a bit of grass on their greens, nor does Havana. All (3) 9's at Palmer have been devoid of grass, until this past week when Laurel started to improve. Riley Grove is horrendous. Cane Garden's greens are atrocious. Mallory's greens are putting ok, but they don't have much grass either.

[BrianL99]

Lived at The Landings for 36 years. Our builder let me experiment with a finer blade zoysia. One of my many failed experiments. :-) The Club did try a wider blade zoysia around the bunkers and tee boxes for a couple of the new courses, but it apparently just doesn't grow back fast enough to be suitable, at least in that area. Have researched getting rid of the Bermuda in the lawn, but it's looking like a no-go.

Savannah is the coolest city I've ever been too and I loved The Landings. I've been there for a couple of Korn-Ferry events. When I first came to FL 15 years ago, I was commuting from Boston every month, so I wanted to be sure to have warm golf weather. If it wasn't for the 15 degree difference in the winter, I'd still be at The Landings.

[Larchap49]

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

It is my understanding that the greens in this area have a fungus that is being spread by everyone’s golf shoes. It was recommended to me that I not go home and walk on my lawn with my golf shoes. That being said there are now too many golfers for the number of available holes of golf.

[mntlblok]

Answer to your last question. NO. ++s and ----s on over seeding. when they are growing in and dying off there are 2 months of BAD greens but pretty and smooth during the cold months(time of most play) This year on the Champ courses they have been in good condition except for Havana and Evans

Thank you. Couldn't remember how long it took for the rye to grow in but do remember being surprised by how large - and abundant - the seeds were. :-)

Trying to now picture whether to expect a transition period when Bermuda greens come out of dormancy. Is it necessary to mow the greens at all during the winter? They're painted, right?

[BrianL99]

Thank you. Couldn't remember how long it took for the rye to grow in but do remember being surprised by how large - and abundant - the seeds were. :-)

Trying to now picture whether to expect a transition period when Bermuda greens come out of dormancy. Is it necessary to mow the greens at all during the winter? They're painted, right?

There are a lot of different strains of Bermuda grass and they have varying characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, as well as tolerating temperature changes, differently. The greens in TV utilize at least 2 or 3 different varieties.

[mntlblok]

There are a lot of different strains of Bermuda grass and they have varying characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, as well as tolerating temperature changes, differently. The greens in TV utilize at least 2 or 3 different varieties.

Yeah, I'm sorta familiar with Tifton and their Bermudagrass research, but not so much with other grass types. "Tifdwarf" even comes to mind. Have only experienced bent a few times. No real clue about the overseeding grasses, though.

Would love to know what type is still present on Redfish Run and whether it is different from what was intended to be there. . .

[BrianL99]

Yeah, I'm sorta familiar with Tifton and their Bermudagrass research, but not so much with other grass types. "Tifdwarf" even comes to mind. Have only experienced bent a few times. No real clue about the overseeding grasses, though.

Would love to know what type is still present on Redfish Run and whether it is different from what was intended to be there. . .

Plant identification? There’s an app for that—actually several! - Landscaping (https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/plant-identification-theres-an-app-for-that-actually-several)

10 Best Free Plant Identification Apps For iOS & Android (2023) (https://backgarden.org/plant-identification-apps/)

I think accuracy with "grass" is probably in the 40% - 50% category and I doubt any of the apps can identify different varieties of otherwise similar grass.

Or try this:

Identifying Grass Types | Golf Course Lawn Store (https://golfcourselawn.store/blogs/diy-lawn-care/which-type-of-grass-is-my-lawn)

[mntlblok]

Plant identification? There’s an app for that—actually several! - Landscaping (https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/plant-identification-theres-an-app-for-that-actually-several)

10 Best Free Plant Identification Apps For iOS & Android (2023) (https://backgarden.org/plant-identification-apps/)

I think accuracy with "grass" is probably in the 40% - 50% category and I doubt any of the apps can identify different varieties of otherwise similar grass.

Or try this:

Identifying Grass Types | Golf Course Lawn Store (https://golfcourselawn.store/blogs/diy-lawn-care/which-type-of-grass-is-my-lawn)

That last link was great. Identifying Grass Types | Golf Course Lawn Store (https://golfcourselawn.store/blogs/diy-lawn-care/which-type-of-grass-is-my-lawn) I now know a lot more than I did before. Doubt I'll ever be able to ID a grass blade cut to an eighth of an inch, though. :-)

[BrianL99]

That last link was great. Identifying Grass Types | Golf Course Lawn Store (https://golfcourselawn.store/blogs/diy-lawn-care/which-type-of-grass-is-my-lawn) I now know a lot more than I did before. Doubt I'll ever be able to ID a grass blade cut to an eighth of an inch, though. :-)

Stop hitting in the fairway and hit one in the rough, you'll find longer grass! :a20:

[Papa_lecki]

Or try this:

Identifying Grass Types | Golf Course Lawn Store (https://golfcourselawn.store/blogs/diy-lawn-care/which-type-of-grass-is-my-lawn)

I didn’t see Carl Spackler’s favorite grass - a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

[BrianL99]

I didn’t see Carl Spackler’s favorite grass - a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

I wake up every morning and look in the mirror and see this old guy, looking back. I ride around TV and see old people, everywhere. Then I think about it and remember, we were the cutting edge of the drug culture. We'll always have that going for us, which is nice. You have the Tee Judge Smails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X48G7Y0VWW4

[Two Bills]

I wake up every morning and look in the mirror and see this old guy, looking back. I ride around TV and see old people, everywhere. Then I think about it and remember, we were the cutting edge of the drug culture. We'll always have that going for us, which is nice. You have the Tee Judge Smails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X48G7Y0VWW4


As the old saying goes, "If you remember the 60's, you weren't there!"

[mntlblok]

I didn’t see Carl Spackler’s favorite grass - a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

OMG. Almost failed to google that. Had forgotten who Carl was. :-) Thanks.

[wmet13]

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

I think you are correct. These greens are being mis-managed and improperly maintained. They are basically mud with sparse areas of grass. Are they being watered too much?? Are they being re-seeded? It's really terrible

[laboutj]

I played Briarwood last Saturday and the greens were perfection, I kid you not. Haven't seen greens like that since I belonged to a private club in Mass. No idea how you can go from conditions like that to scorched earth greens a few miles away at Bonita, Redfish, Bogart, Bacall. And then south of 466A Sweetgum has great greens. It just doesn't make sense

[mrf0151]

Love Sweetgum. Beautiful course and nice conditions. On the other hand, playing Pimlico is a waste of time. It needs to be closed until they can fix the terrible greens.

[ThirdOfFive]

I think you are correct. These greens are being mis-managed and improperly maintained. They are basically mud with sparse areas of grass. Are they being watered too much?? Are they being re-seeded? It's really terrible
I wonder--has any thought been given to artificial greens for the executive courses? Seems as if they'd solve a multitude of problems including very low maintenance needs, no watering necessary, hold up very well under heavy traffic, not as affected by specific seasons as natural grass, etc. etc. Also much less expensive overall than natural grass greens, and when replacement is needed it is a matter of maybe a day's work vs. preparing the ground, seeding, watering, trimming, etc. as is the case for natural grass greens, which can take weeks or even months. Win-win: better looking and playing greens with far less maintenance over the long haul which would free up money for other maintenance needs on the course. Additionally playing characteristics of the greens would be consistent course-to-course; much the better situation than what exists today, where poor upkeep or other variables affecting green conditions on courses adjoining one another can vary considerably, or even significantly varying conditions green-to-green on the same course.

The purists and top-tier golfers might object but what was true years and even decades ago as to playability (good for putting or driving but not both, among others) have pretty much disappeared, and to be honest, according to what I see, the vast majority of players on the executive courses are, to put it bluntly, hackers: folks to whom such objections would make very little difference, while the better players would still have natural grass greens on the championship courses.

[sheena0904]

I played Briarwood last Saturday and the greens were perfection, I kid you not. Haven't seen greens like that since I belonged to a private club in Mass. No idea how you can go from conditions like that to scorched earth greens a few miles away at Bonita, Redfish, Bogart, Bacall. And then south of 466A Sweetgum has great greens. It just doesn't make sense
Sure it does. Those courses were redone with the new proper turf and construction. Very easy explanation.

[BrianL99]

He has a decent resume, growing from one job to another. My concern is he’s been here since 2019, and the courses haven’t improved.

His certificate in turf grass is from Penn State, one of the best in the country.

My solution would be to have 4 Mitches, one for each section of the Villages.
I just hope he is empowered to run the executives

According to his interview last week, with one of the Developer's spokesmen, Mitch has upgraded his "Certificate". Now he claims he has a "Degree in Turf Management" from Penn State (as you said, the premier Turf Management school in the country, if not the world).

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WWDaoUK_s)

Funny how his LinkedIn doesn't say he has a "Degree in Turf Management" from Penn State. Maybe he forgot to include that? Or perhaps "misspoke" in the interview?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchell-leininger-74a7426a/

Hey Mitch! Give me a call. I'll meet you at Sumter Landing & buy you lunch. You show me a letter from Penn State that you have a Degree in Turf Management, I'll give you $500 for your time.

[biker1]

It looks like it is a 2-year certification program and not a degree. They have a list of graduates on their website.


According to his interview last week, with one of the Developer's spokesmen, Mitch has upgraded his "Certificate". Now he claims he has a "Degree in Turf Management" from Penn State (as you said, the premier Turf Management school in the country, if not the world).

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WWDaoUK_s)

Funny how his LinkedIn doesn't say he has a "Degree in Turf Management" from Penn State. Maybe he forgot to include that? Or perhaps "misspoke" in the interview?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchell-leininger-74a7426a/

Hey Mitch! Give me a call. I'll meet you at Sumter Landing & buy you lunch. You show me a letter from Penn State that you have a Degree in Turf Management, I'll give you $500 for your time.

[BrianL99]

It looks like it is a 2-year certification program and not a degree. They have a list of graduates on their website.

I can't find his name, did you?

His resume on LinkedIn says he has a "Certificate".

In his interview, he says he has a "Degree in Turf Management from Penn State".

An "online Certificate" is a world apart from a Penn State Degree in Turf Management.

If he worked for Joe Smith's Hacker's Paradise in Oxford, FL ... it's no one's business if he's fudging his resume. In this case, he's a public employee or certainly getting paid with public dollars. Call me crazy, but I like to know what I'm getting for my dollars and based on the conditions of the Executive Golf courses, none of us seem to be getting very much these days.

[biker1]

I could not find his name either. Without seeing his CV, it is hard to say what credentials he has. I would generally assume that those sorts of positions require a BS degree in some area of plant science. Regarding the certification program, it wasn't clear to me that it could be done on-line.

I can't find his name, did you?

His resume on LinkedIn says he has a "Certificate".

In his interview, he says he has a "Degree in Turf Management from Penn State".

An "online Certificate" is a world apart from a Penn State Degree in Turf Management.

[BrianL99]

I could not find his name either. Without seeing his CV, it is hard to say what credentials he has. I would generally assume that those sorts of positions require a BS degree in some area of plant science.

One would think. If it was a job at a typical local golf course, I could see them going for "practical experience". Being responsible for 400+ holes of golf, is a pretty big job.

[biker1]

You could ask for his CV but I doubt it would be forthcoming.

One would think. If it was a job at a typical local golf course, I could see them going for "practical experience". Being responsible for 400+ holes of golf, is a pretty big job.

[pokeefe45@aol.com]

Have you played any of the courses in The Villages over the last 3 months?

The Greens are atrocious, on most every Championship Golf Course. EP doesn't have a bit of grass on their greens, nor does Havana. All (3) 9's at Palmer have been devoid of grass, until this past week when Laurel started to improve. Riley Grove is horrendous. Cane Garden's greens are atrocious. Mallory's greens are putting ok, but they don't have much grass either.

Greens are beautiful on Southern Oaks. Also on Bonifay-at least on 2 of the 3 9's I've played. As well Tierra Del Sol, and Hacienda have solid greens. I've also heard (althought not played recently) that Lopez and Glenview are still in good shape.(and Mallory as you pointed out) I think that's at least half of them that are still in decent shape-Doesn't excuse the one's that aren't-but 'most every' championship is a stretch statement.

[CharlesNT]

Not a problem, but a statement of fact.

Per capita there are fewer courses south of 44, putting more pressure on courses further north.

They claim a survey of new owners told the developers they preferred nature trails and areas to golf courses, so the new areas reflect that. Once people are here for a while many take up the game, and it takes a while to get plans changed to meet demand.

It’s a common complaint, not against the residents, but about the developers.

[JMintzer]

Not a problem, but a statement of fact.

Per capita there are fewer courses south of 44, putting more pressure on courses further north.

They claim a survey of new owners told the developers they preferred nature trails and areas to golf courses, so the new areas reflect that. Once people are here for a while many take up the game, and it takes a while to get plans changed to meet demand.

It’s a common complaint, not against the residents, but about the developers.

I'm confused...

For some time, we've heard (mostly from the southern residents) that golf is a dying game and that they prefer the nature trails and the bike paths...

The developer seems to have responded to those preferences. But it's still their fault?

[Velvet]

Not a problem, but a statement of fact.

Per capita there are fewer courses south of 44, putting more pressure on courses further north.

They claim a survey of new owners told the developers they preferred nature trails and areas to golf courses, so the new areas reflect that. Once people are here for a while many take up the game, and it takes a while to get plans changed to meet demand.

It’s a common complaint, not against the residents, but about the developers.

Yes, I think first, many who come here don’t yet know how to play golf so they say they prefer nature trails since they can’t go on the golf courses. Then, they walked the same nature trail and natural areas so often that they get bored but the neighbors keep getting together for golf. They learn to play golf. They can finally enjoy the golf courses and they never get tired of golf because it is game that you can always learn more. And they bought this golf cart which finally makes a lot of sense to have. So their taste changes as they live here.

[Bogie Shooter]

Not a problem, but a statement of fact.

Per capita there are fewer courses south of 44, putting more pressure on courses further north.

They claim a survey of new owners told the developers they preferred nature trails and areas to golf courses, so the new areas reflect that. Once people are here for a while many take up the game, and it takes a while to get plans changed to meet demand.

It’s a common complaint, not against the residents, but about the developers.

Yes, I think first, many who come here don’t yet know how to play golf so they say they prefer nature trails since they can’t go on the golf courses. Then, they walked the same nature trail and natural areas so often that they get bored but the neighbors keep getting together for golf. They learn to play golf. They can finally enjoy the golf courses and they never get tired of golf because it is game that you can always learn more. And they bought this golf cart which finally makes a lot of sense to have. So their taste changes as they live here.

Hasn’t this been thoroughly discussed on a more CURRENT thread?

[Velvet]

Hasn’t this been thoroughly discussed on a more CURRENT thread?

Yes, it is a recurrent issue.

[Bay Kid]

I play as a single fitting in as a 4th wheel. There are so many golfers that venture north to play. They/we need more choices to the south.

[mntlblok]

Hasn’t this been thoroughly discussed on a more CURRENT thread?

Interesting question. Caused me some ponderage over why it might have arisen. Guessing that the way that *I* access this forum ain't the "standard" means. I basically only think to look at TOTV because of the daily (usually) reminder in my email "in box", and I guess I don't actually look at all of the forum (fora?), but rather only "Yesterdays Hot Topics" as listed in that daily email update.

OTOH, the reason I saw the recent comments from *this* thread was due to a separate email to me pointing out that there had been a new comment - apparently due to the fact that I am somehow "subscribed" to said thread. Don't really have all that good an understanding of how that works, either.

So, what I now have to wonder is whether my daily access technique (via email reminder) is substandard and drops me to a lower forum status level. And, are less timely posts considered something like "littering"? I try to be a good citizen. What are the (unwritten?) rules over which such a question has been raised?

Or, was it the perceived "thoroughness" of the discussion that is the issue? And how does one keep up with "CURRENT"ness? What are the proper and accepted expiration dates? Guess I'm trying to figure out why bringing up the points under discussion "here and now" don't seem to bother me. Is it a mere lack of sophistication on my part? TIA