Long time TV Residents & Golf

[BrianL99]

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

[villagetinker]

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

I am sure you are retired, but you sound like you have very valid points, perhaps you could try contacting property maintenance and having a discussion with them, maybe offer your services for a short time.

[dewilson58]

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The Villages does not maintain over 50 Executive courses.

[4$ALE]

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

:rolleyes: YES ......... And thanks for asking. :ho:

[Pondboy]

My guess would be that they are in the “Land Development / Home Building” business and not the golf course maintenance business. They contract out all their maintenance ; landscaping, mowing, ponds, water, etc.,

This way they also don’t have to worry about providing health / retirement benefits to all the extra staff.

They also don’t have to worry about lawsuits should anything go wrong.

[BrianL99]

The Villages does not maintain over 50 Executive courses.


I'm using the words "The Villages", in the vernacular & as for the number, I keep reading different #'s. 50 is a close enough approximation of the number of golf courses in TV, isn't? I can do some research and may come up with the exact number?

I don't think my point changes, if it's 38 or 43, does it?

[BrianL99]

I am sure you are retired, but you sound like you have very valid points, perhaps you could try contacting property maintenance and having a discussion with them, maybe offer your services for a short time.

There's a letter to Rickey Craig on my computer, I've revised at least 10 times, but still haven't sent it. I've met Rickey once and he seems like a good guy and from my short conversation with him, competent. I've never met the guy who's in charge of the Executive Courses. I'm sure they'd probably offer me a job as an Ambassador ... which means I won't live to 72, someone will shoot me.

I'm mostly retired, but bored to death ... which puts me on TOTV more than I should be.

[Hape2Bhr]

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

The course I belonged to up north rolled greens at least four times a week. They were quite fast. The Super would post the putting green speed daily prior to tournaments; always above 11, and usually higher.

[kansasr]

I'm using the words "The Villages", in the vernacular & as for the number, I keep reading different #'s. 50 is a close enough approximation of the number of golf courses in TV, isn't? I can do some research and may come up with the exact number?

I don't think my point changes, if it's 38 or 43, does it?

With currently 41 executive courses, 3 pitch & putt and 4 putting, I'd say you're pretty close!

[dewilson58]

I'm using the words "The Villages", in the vernacular & as for the number, I keep reading different #'s. 50 is a close enough approximation of the number of golf courses in TV, isn't? I can do some research and may come up with the exact number?

I don't think my point changes, if it's 38 or 43, does it?

No issue with your wrong number of courses, just including the number you stated.

"vernacular"???:
a) the language or dialect spoken by the ordinary people in a particular country or region.
b) using the form of a language that a particular group of speakers use naturally, especially in informal situations

Do you mean you are using the words "The Villages" more generically???....including the Districts??

The Villages is a land development company..........develop & sell.
Mowing & fertilizing are not core businesses.
When profitable / efficient, they sell off non-core functions (CDD's, water treatment, etc.).
I think that's what you are missing.........it's not centralized, hasn't been "forever" and is not what a land development company focuses on.

:ho:

[JoMar]

There's a letter to Rickey Craig on my computer, I've revised at least 10 times, but still haven't sent it. I've met Rickey once and he seems like a good guy and from my short conversation with him, competent. I've never met the guy who's in charge of the Executive Courses. I'm sure they'd probably offer me a job as an Ambassador ... which means I won't live to 72, someone will shoot me.

I'm mostly retired, but bored to death ... which puts me on TOTV more than I should be.

How can you be bored here? No hobbies or interests or expanding experiences?

[graciegirl]

There's a letter to Rickey Craig on my computer, I've revised at least 10 times, but still haven't sent it. I've met Rickey once and he seems like a good guy and from my short conversation with him, competent. I've never met the guy who's in charge of the Executive Courses. I'm sure they'd probably offer me a job as an Ambassador ... which means I won't live to 72, someone will shoot me.

I'm mostly retired, but bored to death ... which puts me on TOTV more than I should be.

Husband plays four times a week, 18 holes, doesn't come home complaining. He is 83. Most people know that the golf here is different than what we have left.......and so are we, mostly. This is a hugely successful development here, golf and all. If it ain't broke, why fix it???

[MrChip72]

My guess would be that they are in the “Land Development / Home Building” business and not the golf course maintenance business. They contract out all their maintenance ; landscaping, mowing, ponds, water, etc.,


The developer should follow in a common theme they go by and create their own golf maintenance company. They could take advantage of the huge economies of scale involved in owning specialized equipment that might only be used once a month on each course.

I honestly don't know how some of the smaller muni courses up north can maintain fairly good conditions just using a small team of seasonal golf maintenance workers and limited equipment.

[BrianL99]

The course I belonged to up north rolled greens at least four times a week. They were quite fast. The Super would post the putting green speed daily prior to tournaments; always above 11, and usually higher.

Call him and see if he'll take a 50% pay cut & come work here in The Villages!

[BrianL99]

No issue with your wrong number of courses, just including the number you stated.

"vernacular"???:
a) the language or dialect spoken by the ordinary people in a particular country or region.
b) using the form of a language that a particular group of speakers use naturally, especially in informal situations

Do you mean you are using the words "The Villages" more generically???....including the Districts??

The Villages is a land development company..........develop & sell.
Mowing & fertilizing are not core businesses.
When profitable / efficient, they sell off non-core functions (CDD's, water treatment, etc.).
I think that's what you are missing.........it's not centralized, hasn't been "forever" and is not what a land development company focuses on.

:ho:


When I used the words "The Villages", I was meaning the CDD's & all the other entities involved with golf in The Villages (but you already know what I meant). Folks in The Villages seem to lump the entities all together, so I used "vernacular" ... it's such a good word.

"Generically" probably would have worked as well and maybe even better. If you prefer, the next time I lump them all together, I'll use "generic", so you don't have waste your valuable time, looking words up in a dictionary.

I still haven't figured out all the various entities involved and probably never will. I know that Staff at the Championship Golf Courses (that the "Developer" owns), are now employees of some other entity. One of the CDD's, I think? I don't really understand how all that works, but it's been going on since November.

The point is, there are somewhere approaching 50-60 golf courses, all managed and/or owned by different, but related entities. Seems that there should be some economy of scale to be had.

[Rainger99]

If it ain't broke, why fix it???

That is the issue - a lot of people think it is broken.

Just read the posts about the condition of the executive and championship courses!

[Sandy and Ed]

No issue with your wrong number of courses, just including the number you stated.

"vernacular"???:
a) the language or dialect spoken by the ordinary people in a particular country or region.
b) using the form of a language that a particular group of speakers use naturally, especially in informal situations

Do you mean you are using the words "The Villages" more generically???....including the Districts??

The Villages is a land development company..........develop & sell.
Mowing & fertilizing are not core businesses.
When profitable / efficient, they sell off non-core functions (CDD's, water treatment, etc.).
I think that's what you are missing.........it's not centralized, hasn't been "forever" and is not what a land development company focuses on.

:ho:
Thanks for providing those clarifications to the OP’s posting. Makes a world of difference and definitely adds value to the discourse.

[MarkD1981]

My guess would be that they are in the “Land Development / Home Building” business and not the golf course maintenance business. They contract out all their maintenance ; landscaping, mowing, ponds, water, etc.,

This way they also don’t have to worry about providing health / retirement benefits to all the extra staff.

They also don’t have to worry about lawsuits should anything go wrong.

Outsourcing will not shield you from liability. Lawyers will follow the money and The Villages has plenty. Jurors are sympathetic towards plaintiffs.

[crash]

My guess would be that they are in the “Land Development / Home Building” business and not the golf course maintenance business. They contract out all their maintenance ; landscaping, mowing, ponds, water, etc.,

This way they also don’t have to worry about providing health / retirement benefits to all the extra staff.

They also don’t have to worry about lawsuits should anything go wrong.

The championship courses are privately ran the developer just leases them out to private companies. The executive course are owned by the development districts not the developer.

[Marathon Man]

When I used the words "The Villages", I was meaning the CDD's & all the other entities involved with golf in The Villages (but you already know what I meant). Folks in The Villages seem to lump the entities all together, so I used "vernacular" ... it's such a good word.
...

Yes, they do. But that is because most residents have not taken the time to learn how our community works. There are many who that believe that the Morse family owns everything inside 'the bubble'.

Since you have time, I suggest that a good place to begin is to develop an understanding of all the parts and pieces of "The Villages". It is well worth the time. Take a look at Resident Academy (hopefully the still offer it).

[NotGolfer]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda! I don't golf now but used to. My other 1/2 does and has for years, so not a rooky. I never hear complaints! A different slant on this "conversation"----it seems no matter what the subject, there are folks who seem to be "experts" or have opinions on how things should be going. One common comment is----"we didn't have this/that where we came from!!" A couple of people on here hit it on the head---T.V. is a business and it's to build houses. NOT provide you stellar (fill in the blank) whatever you feel we need. Would it all be wonderful and nice? Yep!! Central Florida was a rural area and not a metro one. People here came for "Life-styles"---loved what they saw and decided to move here. From all the complaints it seems "some" didn't do their homework. Think the prison and the quarry as well as the Interstate!!! THIS is MY opinion!!! On another note----social media sites are great entertainment!!:posting:

[Jazzman]

I'm using the words "The Villages", in the vernacular & as for the number, I keep reading different #'s. 50 is a close enough approximation of the number of golf courses in TV, isn't? I can do some research and may come up with the exact number?

I don't think my point changes, if it's 38 or 43, does it?

Some users on this site post just to post.

[mkjelenbaas]

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?
Maybe it is centralized and that is why so many of the courses are in HORRIBLE shape??

[BrianL99]

Yes, they do. But that is because most residents have not taken the time to learn how our community works. There are many who that believe that the Morse family owns everything inside 'the bubble'.

Since you have time, I suggest that a good place to begin is to develop an understanding of all the parts and pieces of "The Villages". It is well worth the time. Take a look at Resident Academy (hopefully the still offer it).


So no one knows the answer to my question?

Did the Developer ever self-maintain the Championship Golf Courses (post-construction)?

Did the controlling CDD's ever self-maintain the Executive courses in their portfolio or contract out the maintenance to a single entity?

[Bruceg0028]

The course maintenance is difficult with the amount of play at this time of year. Not only for the executive courses but also the championship ones.

With the growth of TV to the south new golf courses are not keeping pace with the population growth. They keep adding pitch and putts and putting courses. While fun to play they do not reduce the play on the traditional courses.

Seems like houses on land instead of new courses is the priority.

Perhaps for guests and renters there should be a limited amount of times a week they can play. Also for every so many new villages added there should be a requirement for 1 new executive course. The number could be higher for championship courses.

[Papa_lecki]

Outsourcing will not shield you from liability. Lawyers will follow the money and The Villages has plenty. Jurors are sympathetic towards plaintiffs.

The developer still owns the course.

[BrianL99]

Maybe it is centralized and that is why so many of the courses are in HORRIBLE shape??

It is not.

The CDD's & the Developer out-source all golf course maintenance.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the outside contractors have business relationships with the people involved with the aforementioned entities, but that's strictly wild speculation.

[BrianL99]

A couple of people on here hit it on the head---T.V. is a business and it's to build houses. NOT provide you stellar (fill in the blank) whatever you feel we need. Would it all be wonderful and nice? Yep!! Central Florida was a rural area and not a metro one. People here came for "Life-styles"---loved what they saw and decided to move here.
:


The Villages (or the various neighborhoods) is not a business, it is a community.

The "Developer" is a business.

The CDD's are GOVERNMENT.

The Developer promised everyone who bought a home in TV, reasonable access to decent golf.

The CDD's obligation, is to maintain the infrastructure and amenities the Developer provided and promised the residents.

This is no different than someone who bought a home on a beautiful, private, tree lined street a developer built and then the city or town turned it into a dirt road. They'd be hell to pay.

It really is that simple.

[John Mayes]

It is not.

The CDD's & the Developer out-source all golf course maintenance.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the outside contractors have business relationships with the people involved with the aforementioned entities, but that's strictly wild speculation.

Not all championship courses are sourced to outside maintenance crews. Two or possibly three courses are maintained by maintenance staffs that are employees of TV’s….not the district. SO is one course maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

[BrianL99]

Not all championship courses are sourced to outside maintenance crews. Two or possibly three courses are maintained by maintenance staffs that are employees of TV’s….not the district. SO is one course maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

When you say, "maintenance staffs that are employees of TV", I assume you mean "employees of the Developer/golf course owner" ?

I was told by numerous sources, that all the Championship courses were out-sourced for maintenance. I'd be curious to know which courses are maintained by actual employees of the Developer.

[John Mayes]

When you say, "maintenance staffs that are employees of TV", I assume you mean "employees of the Developer/golf course owner" ?

I was told by numerous sources, that all the Championship courses were out-sourced for maintenance. I'd be curious to know which courses are maintained by actual employees of the Developer.

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

[DAVIDW5084]

I agree with your points on centralized management of the executive courses. The same can be said for the championship courses which could be under the same management but I believe they are completely separated free m each other. The question is how to get it done.

[Two Bills]

Husband plays four times a week, 18 holes, doesn't come home complaining. He is 83. Most people know that the golf here is different than what we have left.......and so are we, mostly. This is a hugely successful development here, golf and all. If it ain't broke, why fix it???

Probably over successful as a development, but unfortunately conditions and maintenance, has not kept up with the demand and extra wear and tear on existing golf courses.
My wife and I have not golfed for several years now, but old friends in TV are unanimous in saying how bad some of the Championship courses are, and that far too many Execs are dire.
Something is definitely broken, and needs fixing, and even the largest 'Rose Tinted' spectacles need a clean now and again!
What is new, and unheard of, is even some of the diehards, who would attack any detrimental post or poster on any subject concerning The Villages on TOTV, are voicing dissatisfaction with course conditions.
There is definitely something wrong.

[John Mayes]

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

I need to correct my claim about TDS. I just looked on Golf The Villages and it says that maintenance is handled by Down To Earth.

[village dreamer]

There's a letter to Rickey Craig on my computer, I've revised at least 10 times, but still haven't sent it. I've met Rickey once and he seems like a good guy and from my short conversation with him, competent. I've never met the guy who's in charge of the Executive Courses. I'm sure they'd probably offer me a job as an Ambassador ... which means I won't live to 72, someone will shoot me.

I'm mostly retired, but bored to death ... which puts me on TOTV more than I should be.

im not sure who is higher,rick craig or mitch leininger dir of golf 352 674 1885. give them hell.

[BrianL99]

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.


TDS isn't maintained by the Developer, based on what 2 different employees told me, in the last 2 weeks. According to what I was told, the "contractor" who maintained TDS, GV & Lopez has been moved down "south" to help with construction and/or grow in. The contractor that maintains Palmer & others, has taken over GV, TDS & LL.

The information flow in TV isn't always credible, but the people who told me this, *should* know the facts.

[Just read your correction. That follows what I've been told. Thanks for posting it]

[BrianL99]

im not sure who is higher,rick craig or mitch leininger dir of golf 352 674 1885. give them hell.

I believe the Rickey Craig is #1 with the Championship courses and Leininger is #1 with Executive courses.

I'd love to go to work for the Villages golf operation and would do it for much less than 1/2 what I was getting paid, when I had to make a living. That said, I doubt they'd want me. I'm much too opinionated and not one to "toe the company line", when things are amiss.

If I ever hear that TV really wants to make a change in the way they manage and operate their golf courses. I'll be first in line at the job window.

[JGVillages]

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

I have been here for18+ years. In my opinion the Director of Golf Course Operations 18 years ago and developed the Tee Time System, which is an excellent system. Unfortunately his educational expertise was not related to golf, and wasn’t the person to properly handle golf course future development and maintenance. In addition The Villages courses have been constructed by one contractor that completed the projects within the budget the Developer allowed, which in many areas were below USGA standards, thus contributing to ongoing maintenance issues. Some of the north’s Championship course renovations, ie: Lopez greens not originally built to USGA Spec’s, revealed the less expensive construction. For me I believe The Developer has done a spectacular job with the ammenities and their quality offered to the residents. The exception seems to be in the quality of Villages Golf Courses, which in my belief was initiallyThe Developer’s lack of GOLF expertise to hire the contractors and employees necessary to job they believed would happen, thus contributing to the ongoing maintenance issues.

[kkingston57]

The course I belonged to up north rolled greens at least four times a week. They were quite fast. The Super would post the putting green speed daily prior to tournaments; always above 11, and usually higher.`

Rolled greens. People here are lucky to have greens which consist of having grass on more than 50% on the surface area and mowed(exec courses)

[Jim1mack]

Last Wednesday I golfed Destin to fort Walton at Bonifay. I was a fourth on my reservation and the other three were together on another reservation. As such I could use my cart and they could use the two carts they came in. That’s the rule btw.

With three carts one must drive in the rough and use the 90 degree rule to cross the fairway. To my surprise, the other two carts also drove the rough and used the 90 degree rule or walked from the rough to their ball if it was near. It was not a 90 degree rule day.

These three as well as I sanded or replaced divots and fixed their ball marks. We also all fixed any other ball marks we found.

That’s how it should be done. All greens were in great shape btw.

[kkingston57]

Not all championship courses are sourced to outside maintenance crews. Two or possibly three courses are maintained by maintenance staffs that are employees of TV’s….not the district. SO is one course maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

No matter what there are two different entities, the developer(AKA Morss family) and the Districts. Each needs to figure out the best way to solve this problem. Will give the developer credit, as most of their courses are in good shape except 1 or 2. Also execs in the north end are in good shape and still are very busy.

[John Mayes]

Last Wednesday I golfed Destin to fort Walton at Bonifay. I was a fourth on my reservation and the other three were together on another reservation. As such I could use my cart and they could use the two carts they came in. That’s the rule btw.

With three carts one must drive in the rough and use the 90 degree rule to cross the fairway. To my surprise, the other two carts also drove the rough and used the 90 degree rule or walked from the rough to their ball if it was near. It was not a 90 degree rule day.

These three as well as I sanded or replaced divots and fixed their ball marks. We also all fixed any other ball marks we found.

That’s how it should be done. All greens were in great shape btw.

General rule is to follow 90° all the time regardless of the number of carts. One should always avoid driving down the middle of the fairway.

[Erider]

I believe the Rickey Craig is #1 with the Championship courses and Leininger is #1 with Executive courses.

I'd love to go to work for the Villages golf operation and would do it for much less than 1/2 what I was getting paid, when I had to make a living. That said, I doubt they'd want me. I'm much too opinionated and not one to "toe the company line", when things are amiss.

If I ever hear that TV really wants to make a change in the way they manage and operate their golf courses. I'll be first in line at the job window.

Brian, first thanks for all your comments, it's obvious that you know what you are talking about about.

It appears to be a problem of the blind leading the blind. People without necessary turf management expertise are directing maintenance performed by glorified lawn care companies.

I believe that it would be of great benefit for a person with your resume to have a chat with the two gentleman named in this thread. I am a retired PGA professional with over 30 years in the business. Perhaps I could send them an email introducing them to you and suggesting a meeting. DM me your contact info if you'd like to try this.

[Oneiric]

The developer should follow in a common theme they go by and create their own golf maintenance company. They could take advantage of the huge economies of scale involved in owning specialized equipment that might only be used once a month on each course.

I honestly don't know how some of the smaller muni courses up north can maintain fairly good conditions just using a small team of seasonal golf maintenance workers and limited equipment.
If The Villages attitude is "we just sell houses", and stands by while the quality of their main asset falls dramatically, why should they change if they are building and selling new houses as fast as possible?
They have the money to build a new high school better than a lot of small colleges. Rather than worry about a perfect physical plant to attract better workers, most parents would be really interested in the advanced placement programs and how many students apply to the very best colleges.

[wamley]

Your answer is correct, but it appears noboby keeps the golf courses in good shape. It's pitiful

[BrianL99]

The developer should follow in a common theme they go by and create their own golf maintenance company. They could take advantage of the huge economies of scale involved in owning specialized equipment that might only be used once a month on each course.

I honestly don't know how some of the smaller muni courses up north can maintain fairly good conditions just using a small team of seasonal golf maintenance workers and limited equipment.

The way it's usually done Mr.Chip, is either a "sharing" among friendly, nearby courses or out-sourcing certain specialized work.

For example, the club I belong to up north, is a stickler for conditioning. We're probably one of the best conditioned courses in NH. In September of last year, we aerated the entire golf course, greens, tees & fairways. We sub-contracted that work out, to a large firm that could do the entire job in 3 days, which minimized "down time" for the members. My entire premise, is given the concentration of golf courses here in TV, a single-source maintenance operation, could afford the best equipment and personnel, as the equipment and people would be utilized every day.

A friend of mine, was an Assistant Professional at the Robt. T. Lynch golf course, in Brookline, MA. This course is located next to the famed The Country Club. When the public course superintendent needed a specialized piece of equipment, he'd walk next door and borrow it from TCC ... they had everything, cost was no object. They actually borrowed one piece of equipment years ago and as of 4 years later, they still had it ... TCC never missed it and didn't ask for it back.

[NotGolfer]

So BrianL99 did you call the golf division or powers-that-be and talk to them?? I know frustrations are about venting on social media BUT this golf-course convo is getting rather old. It's discussed several times on social media sites. Maybe if you speak to the people who are "in charge" that would help. I realize this is a community and you were "promised" something that you feel you aren't getting. Back in the day some years ago---maybe 10 or 12, on this site---someone constantly was complaining (I don't recall about what) and the question was asked---"then why don't you move if you're unhappy?" His answer was, "I like the life-style!!!"

[BrianL99]

Brian, first thanks for all your comments, it's obvious that you know what you are talking about about.

It appears to be a problem of the blind leading the blind. People without necessary turf management expertise are directing maintenance performed by glorified lawn care companies.



Thank you for the kind words.

I think you're right. The person leading the operation doesn't need to be the world's expert on turf management, but he needs to know what real golfers expect, know who to hire and then hold that person accountable or make a change if his choice can't handle the job.

In the case of Mr. Leininger, he apparently reports to: https://www.linkedin.com/in/captainbrown/. Captain Brown was in the Coast Guard for 36 years and retired as a Captain. I didn't find any golf experience on his LinkedIn.

A guy named David Williams is in charge of "Golf Course Operations" and has an entirely different chain of command. He's a PGA Professional, but has no LinkedIn page.



I believe that it would be of great benefit for a person with your resume to have a chat with the two gentleman named in this thread. I am a retired PGA professional with over 30 years in the business. Perhaps I could send them an email introducing them to you and suggesting a meeting. DM me your contact info if you'd like to try this.

Thank you for the offer. I live in TV and play golf most every day. If I have any insight of value to the golf community at large, I'm happy to do whatever. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm more than a little bored.

[UpNorth]

Attached? "Evergreen foothills of San Jose on the site of a former vinyard?" Doesn't sound like around here!

[Littletommy]

There has been a lot of discussion as to what the Vccdd or Developer owns or controls. As it relates to the golf courses, the Vccdd owns and operates 36 of the 41 executive golf courses. The five executive golf courses south of Hwy 44 are still owned and maintained by the Developer. At some point in the future the Developer will probably sell them to the Districts. All of the Championship courses are owned and operated by the Developer.

As to who controls everything in The Villages. It is the Developer.

The Vccdd is a governmental body. There is a contract among all of the different districts that allows the Vccdd district to run everything in The Villages. The board that runs the Vccdd are elected. They are elected by the property owners within the district. The Vccdd is a commercial community develop district centered in Spanish Springs. Since the Developer owns all of the commercial land in the Spanish Springs area the Developer simply puts his own people into those board positions.

I don't understand why the Developer hasn't demanded that the maintenance contracts be complied with. I would think that well maintained executive golf course would help sell houses.

Down to Earth is one of three companies handling the maintenance. They have improved the quality of their work within the last 6 months. The other two contractors, ASG and Brightview don't seem to care. ASG actually blocks my emails from getting to their Management.

[BrianL99]

Attached? "Evergreen foothills of San Jose on the site of a former vinyard?" Doesn't sound like around here!

Sorry, you're right. It came up in Google Search for "The Villages", FL and I didn't read it carefully enough, obviously.

[BrianL99]

There has been a lot of discussion as to what the Vccdd or Developer owns or controls. As it relates to the golf courses, the Vccdd owns and operates 36 of the 41 executive golf courses. The five executive golf courses south of Hwy 44 are still owned and maintained by the Developer. At some point in the future the Developer will probably sell them to the Districts. All of the Championship courses are owned and operated by the Developer.

As to who controls everything in The Villages. It is the Developer.

The Vccdd is a governmental body. There is a contract among all of the different districts that allows the Vccdd district to run everything in The Villages.


You sound like you understand the structure fairly well. A couple of questions if you don't mind::

I was told (or read) that there are (2) different entities that own golf courses & amenities, the SLCDD and the VCCDD. Is that incorrect?

I read today in the ************* (& we all know they never get anything wrong), the Amenity Authority Committee handles north of 466 and the Project Wide Advisory Committee, handles south of 466.

I know the Developer controls the entity (VCCDD) that manages everything and that puts the Morse's into the position of being the Benevolent Dictators.




I don't understand why the Developer hasn't demanded that the maintenance contracts be complied with. I would think that well maintained executive golf course would help sell houses.

Down to Earth is one of three companies handling the maintenance. They have improved the quality of their work within the last 6 months. The other two contractors, ASG and Brightview don't seem to care. ASG actually blocks my emails from getting to their Management.

So ASG, Brightview & Down to Earth, do all the maintenance at the Developer owned Championship courses & they're contracted by the Developer controlled VCCDD to maintain the various Executive courses, too?

[Now that's a new one on me. I typed the name of a fairly well known Villages' Newspaper and it was automatically replaced with asterisks when it posted. Is there a TOTV prohibition about mentioning that name?]

[4$ALE]

Sorry, you're right. It came up in Google Search for "The Villages", FL and I didn't read it carefully enough, obviously.

:shrug: Sir, you NEED a hobby! Maybe I'm wrong..... but I think you need a hobby. :rolleyes:

[BrianL99]

:shrug: Sir, you NEED a hobby! Maybe I'm wrong..... but I think you need a hobby. :rolleyes:

Ever since Paige Spiranac dumped me as her boy toy, I just seem lost.

[4$ALE]

Ever since Paige Spiranac dumped me as her boy toy, I just seem lost.

:coolsmiley: Lexie dumped me! :icon_wink:

[BrianL99]

:coolsmiley: Lexie dumped me! :icon_wink:

That's too bad. Any chance she'll take you back?

She's an absolute sweetheart, with the best legs in the USA.

I spent 5 hours with her one day. The first 2, I didn't realize who she was. (She was following her brother Curtis at the LECOM K-F event and a friend of mine was in his group.)

[Vickim]

I just wish people would take the time to understand how the round about work. Where anyone gets off thinking you can be in right hand lane cross the line to turn left is beyond me. 3 X last week happened to me fortunately I was ready ! almost got the second driver though he followed the first. Unbelievable

[BrianL99]

I just wish people would take the time to understand how the round about work. Where anyone gets off thinking you can be in right hand lane cross the line to turn left is beyond me. 3 X last week happened to me fortunately I was ready ! almost got the second driver though he followed the first. Unbelievable

The roundabout near the Starter's shack, off the 1st Tee of Laurel, at Palmer Legends?

[golfing eagles]

TDS isn't maintained by the Developer, based on what 2 different employees told me, in the last 2 weeks. According to what I was told, the "contractor" who maintained TDS, GV & Lopez has been moved down "south" to help with construction and/or grow in. The contractor that maintains Palmer & others, has taken over GV, TDS & LL.

The information flow in TV isn't always credible, but the people who told me this, *should* know the facts.

[Just read your correction. That follows what I've been told. Thanks for posting it]

That is probably true---3 months ago when conditions at Southern Oaks weren't all that good, the manager told me they were getting the maintenance staff from Glenview.

[golfing eagles]

I just wish people would take the time to understand how the round about work. Where anyone gets off thinking you can be in right hand lane cross the line to turn left is beyond me. 3 X last week happened to me fortunately I was ready ! almost got the second driver though he followed the first. Unbelievable

Unless the vehicle described drove out of the RB and across a golf course green, you are on the wrong thread :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Bill14564]

I was told (or read) that there are (2) different entities that own golf courses & amenities, the SLCDD and the VCCDD. Is that incorrect?

I read today in the ************* (& we all know they never get anything wrong), the Amenity Authority Committee handles north of 466 and the Project Wide Advisory Committee, handles south of 466.

Take a look at districtgov.org->Departments->Budget and the budgets for both the VCCDD and SLCDD. Search for "golf." You will find Golf Operations and Golf Maintenance lines in each. In the SLCDD budget you will find SLAD (Sumter Landing Amenities Division) capital projects for renovation and replacement work on four executive courses.


[Now that's a new one on me. I typed the name of a fairly well known Villages' Newspaper and it was automatically replaced with asterisks when it posted. Is there a TOTV prohibition about mentioning that name?]

Don't know anything of the history and how we got here, but the news-site-that-shall-not-be-named is always replaced by ********* on this forum. You will also find that the wifi at the rec centers blocks that site (at least it did the last time I tried it). This must be frustrating for the reporter from that site who attends many (all?) of the CDD, PWAC, and NSCUDD meetings.

[Causey]

There is always a way, to gain the attention of the "powers that be".
Maybe 150-200 (500?) golfers, with signs on their carts forming a "golf cart parade" to protest the lousy golf course conditions? With a few (25?) YouTube videos.
Or Maybe
A protest of 500 golfers, with signs, at each of TV's sales offices?
Shouldn't be hard to come up with other effective protests.
Might have to do something, rather than bitching on a computer.

[LuvNH]

There is always a way, to gain the attention of the "powers that be".
Maybe 150-200 (500?) golfers, with signs on their carts forming a "golf cart parade" to protest the lousy golf course conditions? With a few (25?) YouTube videos.
Or Maybe
A protest of 500 golfers, with signs, at each of TV's sales offices?
Shouldn't be hard to come up with other effective protests.
Might have to do something, rather than bitching on a computer.

Someone actually did something very similar to this several years ago, she was evicted from TV and can never buy in again! Some of the long term residents will remember this saga.

[BrianL99]

That is probably true---3 months ago when conditions at Southern Oaks weren't all that good, the manager told me they were getting the maintenance staff from Glenview.

That would collaborate what I was told. I was told the change took place in early-mid November.