Golf Courses-What do we do?

[Papa_lecki]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

[Bill14564]

For the executive courses, make your feelings known at a PWAC or AAC meeting and possibly also at a SLCDD or VCCDD meeting.

PWAC and AAC are advisory boards with resident members.
SLCDD and VCCDD are developer-elected boards which actually control the amenities

Any necessary actions need to be taken by the SLCDD or VCCDD but the PWAC and AAC can advise the xxCDD to take those actions.

[rustyp]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

[tophcfa]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ?
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

Both suggestions would yield positive results, but don’t hold your breath waiting for those to happen. The suggestions in post #2 are a more realistic approach.

The absolute most effective way to see results would be for prospective home buyers to back away from purchasing and leave strong feedback that the reason is both poor/inconsistent golf conditions and difficulty getting T Times on the Executives.

[Bill14564]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

Perhaps 3 - Limit the number of tee times to reduce wear and tear

If the amount of traffic is causing the degradation of the courses then decrease the amount of traffic. Yes, everyone resident is entitled to free golf on the executive courses as part of the amenity fee. Everyone also is entitled to sit in the squares but there are a limited number of seats and there are times when people get turned away. The same could be true for the courses - if the heavy usage of the courses is what is causing the poor conditions then reduce the usage by turning (more) people away. There will certainly be complaints from those that are turned away but unlike today, the courses should be in better shape for those who do get to play.

[BrianL99]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

Yes

Take a day off playing Championship Courses and hold a monster GOLF CART PARADE!

[kcrazorbackfan]

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else?

[BrianL99]

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else?

Yes.

While all those have an effect, they are behaviors that golf courses everywhere, deal with and have for the history of golf.

Those problems aren't isolated to The Villages and not the major cause of the horrendous conditions on many of TV's golf courses.

[alwann]

Take a page from the political folks. Put signs on your golf carts saying "Golf Courses Here, Yuck:yuck:," and then parade around the sales centers. We'd probably be cited for violating some law or rule, but the news people from Ocala, Leesburg and Orlando could have an interest in the story. It's doubtful whether our local paper would.

[BrianL99]

It's doubtful whether our local paper would.

Are you suggesting the local paper is biased? :a20:

[alwann]

Are you suggesting the local paper is biased? :a20:

I was being cautiously diplomatic.

[UpNorth]

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else?

None of the above have anything to do with the conditions at Tarpon Boil, Redfish Run, Evans Prarie, Havana, etc. You can't even blame El Nino.

[BrianL99]

None of the above have anything to do with the conditions at Tarpon Boil, Redfish Run, Evans Prarie, Havana, etc. You can't even blame El Nino.

The Arnold Palmer Invitational begins this week, in Orlando.

It will be televised. It will be interesting to see how El Nino affected that golf course, 40 miles away. I bet El Nino spared Bay Hill.

[tophcfa]

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else?

That’s kind of harsh, go drop $75 of your hard earned $$ playing Evans or Havana and tell me the conditions are not worthy of being upset. Something not good is going on, in many years of being a Villager those kind of conditions have never existed before.

[MrChip72]

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?


Yes! As long as you mean a real newspaper like the Orlando Sentinel or the Ocala StarBanner and not the pretend one that many of us get delivered every day.

[JustSomeGuy]

Those in control know the situation. Key to get results is to be calm and always start public comments with "In my opinion....." Avoids legal threat. Post comments on facebook pages as replays, not new topics and post photos. Search as one considering the villages would on the internet and comment on those sites, again... with your opinion.

Sounds like the goal is not to get the CDD's to spend our money and raise our fees but to get the developer to change their procedures... in the areas being developed now. That will allow those in the deep south to play on new courses instead of making the trek north... on the multi modal paths.

Don't show outrage. Show disappointment.... In my opinion, this is not the Villages I expected......It is a shame how things, like the conditions of the golf courses and the shift to pitch and putts has changed the Villages. I never expected to not be able to get a tee time during the week or get a tee time on a course where, in my opinion, greens are worst than municipal courses I use to pay 35 dollars for before I moved here.....

Give those looking the questions to ask... what are my changes of getting a tee time on a Saturday during January? If I were looking at the villages I would ask for a tour of the courses (name them) before buying.... the new course by the turnpike is not the one you will be playing most weeks.....

Behavior changes when the pocket book is impacted.

Have you looked in to Sun City Center outside of Tampa? Courses were sold to a third party and now many have closed... the new owner wants to build more homes on the old courses. Very sad. Also the reason I did not consider that development. I found out via comments left on sites.

We have purchased our homes. Our leverage is near zero. But if our opinion starts to cause buyers to ask specific questions of their Villages realtor....Boom... changes will happen.

[Papa_lecki]

Sounds like the goal is not to get the CDD's to spend our money and raise our fees but to get the developer to change their procedures... in the areas being developed now. That will allow those in the deep south to play on new courses instead of making the trek north... on the multi modal paths.


More like stop wasting money. We are paying a contractor to maintain the course and they are not.

Executives are closed and courses have to re furnished. They are just killing the grass and re-seeding.

[Mrmean58]

Yes.

While all those have an effect, they are behaviors that golf courses everywhere, deal with and have for the history of golf.

Those problems aren't isolated to The Villages and not the major cause of the horrendous conditions on many of TV's golf courses.
While your reply is true, I do not believe other courses deal with the huge numbers of rounds played each day as we do in TV. We often hear comments about how "my course up north". 1) you are playing your course during prime grass growing season and 2) your course is probably luck to get 70-80 rounds in a day where each course here both exec and champ get 230-260 rounds per day.

[golfing eagles]

While your reply is true, I do not believe other courses deal with the huge numbers of rounds played each day as we do in TV. We often hear comments about how "my course up north". 1) you are playing your course during prime grass growing season and 2) your course is probably luck to get 70-80 rounds in a day where each course here both exec and champ get 230-260 rounds per day.

During the long days of summer, each of the 5 courses at Bethpage, including the black get 420 rounds/day. Same is true at Eisenhower Park's 3 courses. Private courses likely get much less play. Many courses in our area are fully booked as well, so "huge numbers of rounds played" is not a phenomenon unique to The Villages. I've been saying for 10 years---just recruit the greens superintendent from Julliette Falls and pay him whatever he wants, there doesn't seem to ever be bad conditions there.

[Annie66]

I'm a golfer who attempts to play executives twice a week. I truly like the idea of limiting the number of tee times to reduce the impact of heavy play. Even though I sometimes get shut out for tee times, if the quality of play is enhanced by good playing condition, I'm all for it. Putting on mostly dirt or weed infested greens just doesn't add to my enjoyment.

[Rwirish]

It’s not heavy usage, it’s El Niño.

[Nana2Teddy]

I’m not a golfer yet, but I do read these threads out of curiosity. While watching a live Q&A show on YouTube with Don Wiley (Gold Wingnut) a week ago he was asked about the poor condition of many of the courses. He said TV is dealing with a serious fungal infection on many courses and working on it, but it’s not an easy fix. This is just my best recollection of his response, not a quote. Since fungus hasn’t been mentioned in this comment thread I’m assuming it’s not common knowledge.

[golfing eagles]

It’s not heavy usage, it’s El Niño.

I partially agree. Many courses have heavy usage, it's not a huge factor. Yes, if a course is closed 6 months out of the year and gets about 20 rounds/ day with a huge maintenance staff and expert agronomists(Augusta National), conditions are pristine. But that is the exception. Many courses as I stated in a post just above have heavy play and good conditions.

El Nino has had some effect---just look at this week at PGA National. I've played that course half a dozen times and the rough was always twice as deep and thick as this year---grass needs sunshine to grow. But that's not the whole story either.

And neither of these explain the difference in conditions say between Glenview and Havana

My take is:
#1) We need expert agronomists and to pay expert golf course maintenance companies rather than lawn care companies. With over 1,000,000 rounds/year on champ courses and an average of say $60/round, the money is there. Just do the math: It takes about $500,000 to maintain 9 holes in excellent condition, we currently have 36 "9's" of champ golf, so that would be $18M out of $60M. Employees, full and part time, let's say the equivalent of 20 FTE's each on 13 courses (5 office workers, 3 managers, a pro, 3 starters 2 ambassadors=14 x 50% more hours than full time for weekends and long days) and a generous average of $20/hour= 13x20x2,000 hrsx$20/hr= $10.4M/year. Now were up to 28.4M out of the $60M in greens fees. Overhead for building maintenance, cart paths, parking lots, electricity, HVAC? No idea, but I would doubt more than $10M/year. Even if these assumptions are off, there is still $21.6M of play room. IMHO, this is very "doable"

#2. We need golfers, meaning ourselves, friends and neighbors without exception to take care of the courses. Fix more ball marks than you make. Fill an extra divot or 2. Rake a second set of footprints. If you have a CAP it is not carte blanche to drive anywhere you please.

[Keither]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

If the overall maintenance of all golf courses hasn't hit rock bottom, we are darn close! The maintenance budget seems incredibly low, and the processes are lacking.

The bermuda grass doesn't grow during these cold winters. Coming from Arizona, golf courses are overseeded with lush green rye grass. Courses are watered and fertilized regularly. They are mowed at least weekly. Greens are growing grass and are free of weeds and clumps. On many courses in The Villages, we putt on dirt that is painted green. And it's like playing pinball with the balls bouncing off clumps of weeds on the greens. Nothing grows during the winter with the type of grass we have.

We overplay all courses during the winter season because the developers (grandchildren) haven't kept up with supply and building enough golf courses to keep up with the exploding homes and population added over the past five years. Just take a drive over to Eastport and watch the homes being built. If only the developers would add sufficient courses in the same manner as they expertly add homes in our community.

Golf courses in this active community is one of the ingredients of the "secret sauce" attracting more baby boomers to The Villages enabling the developers to sell more and more and more homes. They seem to be tone deaf on the issues of (1) PROPER PROACTIVE course maintenance and (2) under supply or not building enough golf courses. The addition of 4 executive and 3 championship courses in Eastport is a start. It won't satisfy the current excessive demand nor will it handle the growing demand for tee times during The Villages 'season' as new homes are added by the thousands.

It appears the developers are detached from these issues (poor course maintenance and too few courses built to meet the growing demand). We must mobilize and promote this problem (if you will) in The Villages. It will take this community action from us residents to impact home sales that will FINALLY get the attention of the developers. If potential buyers become aware of these shortcomings of the poor golf course management, it might impact home sales to get them to take action. This movement by the residents needs to gain momentum, and continue to publicize this massive failing grade in The Villages right now. It will take years to correct this problem.

For those who care about improving the golf course problems, please continue to get this message out!!!!!!

[hardwick2112@yahoo.com]

Some courses outside TV come with carts and lunch included.

[ThirdOfFive]

Both suggestions would yield positive results, but don’t hold your breath waiting for those to happen. The suggestions in post #2 are a more realistic approach.

The absolute most effective way to see results would be for prospective home buyers to back away from purchasing and leave strong feedback that the reason is both poor/inconsistent golf conditions and difficulty getting T Times on the Executives.
The quoted statement is almost...not quite, but close...to being an oxymoron. If courses were as bad across-the-board and some people seem to think they are, then it would be logical to expect that there would be MORE tee times available, and consequently less waiting for tee times to open up.

Truth seems to be that conditions vary tremendously from course to course. The proof of this seems to be that the same five or six courses are mentioned time after time after time as being "unplayable". In the past ten days I've played El Diablo, Hilltop and Briarwood. All three were in very good shape with the exception of some mud in fairways. Hilltop in particular had greens that were as good as they could be. El Diablo had a green or two that was a bit spotty but it has come a LONG way from a month to six weeks ago.

Nevertheless it is valid to question what seems to be hit-and-miss maintenance. You can't blame folks if their favorite courses look like hog wallows or weed patches. I've often wondered just what is the mindset driving this. Is it to do just enough maintenance to get by (and thus spend less money) or are the powers-that-be striving for excellence? If it is the former, than the only thing that will get things to change is A) a concerted effort to get golfers' displeasure known, and B) if that doesn't work, hit those same powers-that-be in the pocketbook. How? Maybe be a bit easier on the championship courses (a one-day boycott would get noticed) but not so much on the execs as the amenity fees cover them.

[GizmoWhiskers]

Anyone do a study on short term rental numbers and the impact on the overall number of golf course and amenities usage as far as getting tee times and wear and tear on both?

Not every resident living or renting long term use the amenities at all or everyday.

Short term renters are at T V resort for a visit to use the amenities and to... PLAY GOLF and hang out at the town squares for a couple of days, weeks, or month. Yippee!!

Seems like the deplorable golf courses and tee time issues are a no brainer to me. Think people care about long term resident's pride in ownership and amenity conditions when they are breezing through? "Drive it like a rental".

[jimbria]

We moved here 10 years ago for many reasons with golf a major reason. This season the courses are by far the worse I have ever seen.
The next ten years will be critical to home values if the courses don’t improve- significantly. They will decline!.
There have been many good suggestions as to what we should do. An organized email, calls etc may get the developers attention

[guitarguy]

Golf channel broadcast from west palm beach on Thursday announced this at start of the broadcast. Florida has had a cloudy and cool winter, you are going to see worn and bare spots on the course. Mother Nature has been tough this winter.
Add that to our heavy use of the courses and we see the results.
Staff turnover-yes. Poorly trained or supervised staff-perhaps on a course by course basis.

[bsloan1960]

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else? Are all of the conclusions that reside in your head wild guesses- all lacking any evidence whatsoever? Or are all of your other ideas founded upon facts- with this one being the only outlier?

[golfing eagles]

Anyone do a study on short term rental numbers and the impact on the overall number of golf course and amenities usage as far as getting tee times and wear and tear on both?

Not every resident living or renting long term use the amenities at all or everyday.

Short term renters are at T V resort for a visit to use the amenities and to... PLAY GOLF and hang out at the town squares for a couple of days, weeks, or month. Yippee!!

Seems like the deplorable golf courses and tee time issues are a no brainer to me. Think people care about long term resident's pride in ownership and amenity conditions when they are breezing through? "Drive it like a rental".

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

[bragones]

Introduce the concept of "limited" free golf.

[BrianL99]

My take is:
#1) We need expert agronomists and to pay expert golf course maintenance companies rather than lawn care companies. With over 1,000,000 rounds/year on champ courses and an average of say $60/round, the money is there. Just do the math: It takes about $500,000 to maintain 9 holes in excellent condition, we currently have 36 "9's" of champ golf, so that would be $18M out of $60M. Employees, full and part time, let's say the equivalent of 20 FTE's each on 13 courses (5 office workers, 3 managers, a pro, 3 starters 2 ambassadors=14 x 50% more hours than full time for weekends and long days) and a generous average of $20/hour= 13x20x2,000 hrsx$20/hr= $10.4M/year. Now were up to 28.4M out of the $60M in greens fees. Overhead for building maintenance, cart paths, parking lots, electricity, HVAC? No idea, but I would doubt more than $10M/year. Even if these assumptions are off, there is still $21.6M of play room. IMHO, this is very "doable"


I think you're fairly close on your numbers. I did a rough analysis last year, backed up by a few quotes I found online as to the # of rounds. I think this year, the Championship courses will do 1.2M rounds (18 hole rounds) at a yield of about $60/round ... about $72,000,000.

With maintenance (IMO, you're little light on budget for 9 holes) at $600K/year and expenses for staffing, overhead, etc, I would put the # just under $1M/year/9 holes. I would consider parking lots, clubhouse maintenance, etc, to be overhead to the Country Club (restaurant). Close enough to your number.

$72,000,000 gross revenue. $33,000,000 CoGS. Throw in 20% margin of error, now we're at $39,000,000 CoGS.

$33,000,000 gross profit. 45% Profit. Not bad work if you can get it.

[golfing eagles]

Introduce the concept of "limited" free golf.

Yes----limited to owners and renters of 30 days or more, as well as their guests. Not much of a limitation except for the Airbnb's and other STRs. Residents other than golfers would benefit as well---less crowding on pickleball courts and other activities at the Rec Centers such as exercise classes. Just how attractive would a STR in The Villages be if all you could do is stare at the four walls?

[johnboy]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

And although I would like to see them lower the high season prices, how is that going to improve the conditions of the courses. There would be more of a demand than there is right now!

[coleprice]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

The Villages Leadership is Aware of Golf Course "Condition" Issue, so they need to act. The VP employed by The Villages who is responsible for Golf Course Management should be FIRED! Their replacement will (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those directly responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. With the right leadership, this can be accomplished within the current budget. Of course, those of us playing the courses need to do our part by fixing divots and ball marks.

[Jim1mack]

A simple sign at the starters shack and on the Ambassador's cart stating:

'Reparing All Divots and Ball Marks Is Expected'.

Simple and little cost.

[jojoturf]

Here’s my take — greens are the main issue, far outweighing bad fairways, bunkers or tee boxes, so;
1) grounds management need to focus on recovering the greens,
2) close courses that are awful — haven’t seen Tarpon Boil on the close list & it’s greens are horrible
3) open Southern Star & Yankee Clipper to offset closures — rode by both of these on Wednesday, they look in fabulous shape!
4) get building new courses in the south, across the turnpike there is plenty of open space. No more pitch & putt or putt-putt courses are necessary.

🤞

[G.R.I.T.S.]

Perhaps 3 - Limit the number of tee times to reduce wear and tear

If the amount of traffic is causing the degradation of the courses then decrease the amount of traffic. Yes, everyone resident is entitled to free golf on the executive courses as part of the amenity fee. Everyone also is entitled to sit in the squares but there are a limited number of seats and there are times when people get turned away. The same could be true for the courses - if the heavy usage of the courses is what is causing the poor conditions then reduce the usage by turning (more) people away. There will certainly be complaints from those that are turned away but unlike today, the courses should be in better shape for those who do get to play.

Add to that the increased number of total slobs that do not repair ball marks, fill divots with sand and rake traps. I repair an average of about 3 ball marks per hole, over the course of 9 holes. Not a solution to everything but being a good steward of our community will only enhance our lifestyle. Do your part!

[3105boy]

It’s not wear and tear but loss of grass on the greens that’s causing dissatisfaction this season. Greenskeepers need supervision and training. They need to hand-water tee boxes and kill weed grass before it spreads. They need to stop excessive aeration (punching) of the greens!!

[Blueblaze]

Personally, my solution is to just wait for the snowbirds to go home.

You sure don't want management to discover that your favorite executive course needs attention. They'll shut it down for a year while they spend 5 milllion dollars to dig up and cart away entire greens, tee boxes, and bunkers, only to replace them with the exact same stuff. And then they'll ban you from using them for six months until the snowbirds arrive to reduce them to rubble again by February.

And lord help you, if they ever catch you walking your dog on their pristine masterpiece while it awaits its January re-destruction!

[Doug17s]

We usually play the executive courses and I always wonder why the grass is cut so low. I understand that the grass is dormant this time of year but grass still grows, although at a slower rate. Let the grass grow to a reasonable height!

[golfing eagles]

Personally, my solution is to just wait for the snowbirds to go home.

You sure don't want management to discover that your favorite executive course needs attention. They'll shut it down for a year while they spend 5 milllion dollars to dig up and cart away entire greens, tee boxes, and bunkers, only to replace them with the exact same stuff. And then they'll ban you from using them for six months until the snowbirds arrive to reduce them to rubble again by February.

And lord help you, if they ever catch you walking your dog on their pristine masterpiece while it awaits its January re-destruction!

I doubt "snowbirds" (seasonal residents who are owners and therefore have a vested interest in our community) are the problem. Renters, especially those that do not return year after year and STRs are probably an issue. Lack of knowledge by those maintaining the course is probably a huge factor.

And there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, EVER, TO WALK YOUR DOG ON GOLF COURSE PROPERTY!

[Desiderata]

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

I love this idea!

[tophcfa]

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

That’s a great idea!

[terryf484]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

I don't believe it is the high demand on the courses that is causing the problem. I think it is the maintenance of the courses. i.e. green conditions on Bonita Pass, Pelican, Tarpon Boil are not due to heavy play, there is disease in the greens.

[DoreenH]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

There is a meeting on Wednesday March 6 at 9:00am at the Savannah Rec Center. Some people are going there to talk to the AAC governing group about the bad condition of the Executive courses. They don't want to cause trouble; just make their opinions known. The more people that attend, the better the message will be!

[mikemalloy]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?
The only thing that the greedy folks who are destroying the lifestyle here will understand is financial pressure. I'd like to see an organized "rent strike." A court approved program where part of ammenities fees are withheld until course conditions are brought to an acceptable level is a start.

[BrianL99]

Yes----limited to owners and renters of 30 days or more, as well as their guests. Not much of a limitation except for the Airbnb's and other STRs. Residents other than golfers would benefit as well---less crowding on pickleball courts and other activities at the Rec Centers such as exercise classes. Just how attractive would a STR in The Villages be if all you could do is stare at the four walls?

Geez, I'm agreeing with you too often, lately.

I've been involved in a few STR controversy, in a couple of towns up north. There was a thread on TOTV about a year ago, complaining about STR's and their effect on the community.

I put together a "rough framework", that was primarily focused on controlling guest passes (or ID's) and essentially making it difficult (if not impossible) to get a Guest Pass for renters who were here less than a month (thereby reducing STR rentals and stress on the amenities) My framework wasn't without holes, it was a "first pass" at an idea. What I considered the lynch pin of the idea, were all the controls that needed to be put in place, were within the jurisdiction of the CDD's and could be implemented, without running afoul of Florida's law that prevents communities from outlawing STR's. As you correctly point out, "amenity access" is the key and probably out of reach by the state's prohibition on STR control.

The reaction from the peanut gallery, was exactly as you would expect. No a person offered a substantive alternative, solution or even a tweak. It was much more fun to complain and poke holes.

The basic hole in my premise, was the Developer has a vested interest in maintaining a "full occupancy of homes" at all times. Why? Because the Developer owns all the commercial properties and the value of those properties, is entirely based on the revenue generated by the tenants. More "residents" = more shoppers, more diners, more everything ... including higher rents for the commercial space. Keep in mind, once the CDD's take over the infrastructure, there's no more increased costs for the developer ... roads, police, utilities, emergency, etc. All those costs are being absorbed by the CDD's.

[PurePeach]

Yes.

While all those have an effect, they are behaviors that golf courses everywhere, deal with and have for the history of golf.

Those problems aren't isolated to The Villages and not the major cause of the horrendous conditions on many of TV's golf courses.

Agree. those things have absolutely nothing to do with bald greens and greens covered in weed wads making good putting impossible. :mad:

[Jdasta]

The creator of WingNut, has answered the question about the golf courses several times. There is a fungal disease. They are fighting it, but it spreads on shoes and mower equipment from one course to the other. Those who have had fungal problems with their lawns know that many times the lawn needs to be resodded and the top layer of soil removed, because the fungus is in the soil. We had fungal problems with our lawn when we were in Georgia. We had it resodded, but it eventually came back. It is a horrible problem. It will take a long time and cost a lot to fix the problem.
The developer is responsible only for those courses he has not yet released. To fix other golf courses, the monies will have to come from amenity fees in those districts.

[PurePeach]

Just put this on my calendar

[Oneiric]

I’m not a golfer yet, but I do read these threads out of curiosity. While watching a live Q&A show on YouTube with Don Wiley (Gold Wingnut) a week ago he was asked about the poor condition of many of the courses. He said TV is dealing with a serious fungal infection on many courses and working on it, but it’s not an easy fix. This is just my best recollection of his response, not a quote. Since fungus hasn’t been mentioned in this comment thread I’m assuming it’s not common knowledge.

Fungus on golf courses is not a new entity. It requires maintenance to provide more than the minimum care with expensive fungicides and other practices to stay AHEAD of it. If not caught early, the grass dies, then it can get REALLY expensive. If you apply the minimum contractual effort to a serious problem, this is what you have now.

[Vermilion Villager]

I doubt "snowbirds" (seasonal residents who are owners and therefore have a vested interest in our community) are the problem. Renters, especially those that do not return year after year and STRs are probably an issue. Lack of knowledge by those maintaining the course is probably a huge factor.

And there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, EVER, TO WALK YOUR DOG ON GOLF COURSE PROPERTY!
Agree everything you said. It appears the new norm for people is to just don't give a #$%^. I've seen in the last 2 Weeks People driving their golf carts right up on the green, throw cigarette butts out while they're driving their golf carts, and not even make an attempt to repair any damage to the course that they may have caused while golfing. I've also witnessed people walking their dogs on paths that say golf carts only. My friend hit an errant shot that bounced off the golf cart path right in front of two ladies and they were a little miffed that we almost hit them! When I explain to them this path is for golf use only they looked at me and just kept walking. Then on top of that you have to add the fact that this has been an unusually cold and wet winter… That alone also has a detrimental effect on the golf course. The point I'm trying to make it's everything combined that is making it so bad this year!

[LarryL]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?
encourage all priority golfers to cancel, telling them that they raised the cost and ruined the courses at the same time! Totally unacceptable!

[Marathon Man]

The only thing that the greedy folks who are destroying the lifestyle here will understand is financial pressure. I'd like to see an organized "rent strike." A court approved program where part of ammenities fees are withheld until course conditions are brought to an acceptable level is a start.

So, you would like to see it. Will you be willing to take action to make it happen?

[Cheapbas]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

I think rather then point to “they” or “ management” we need the person on top of the pyramid who is responsible for it all and approach them.

I don’t believe high traffic is the issue, I’ve seen other courses booked solid constantly not have these problems. Whether it’s weather, disease, improper attention or budgetary they are not throwing the proper resources at it.

[josephchiro]

Yes

Take a day off playing Championship Courses and hold a monster GOLF CART PARADE!

Villagers ban together and all boycott all golf for several days....hit them in the wallet

[JMintzer]

My suggestion is to start yet another thread on the very same topic as the other half a dozen threads that will do absolutely noting to fix the problem...

[Happydaz]

My suggestion is to start yet another thread on the very same topic as the other half a dozen threads that will do absolutely noting to fix the problem...
Who says? It looks like a number of posters may go to the upcoming meetings to talk about their concerns.

[Happydaz]

There is a meeting on Wednesday March 6 at 9:00am at the Savannah Rec Center. Some people are going there to talk to the AAC governing group about the bad condition of the Executive courses. They don't want to cause trouble; just make their opinions known. The more people that attend, the better the message will be!
Here is the information on an upcoming meeting. This gives Villagers a chance to express their concerns.

[kkingston57]

For the executive courses, make your feelings known at a PWAC or AAC meeting and possibly also at a SLCDD or VCCDD meeting.

PWAC and AAC are advisory boards with resident members.
SLCDD and VCCDD are developer-elected boards which actually control the amenities

Any necessary actions need to be taken by the SLCDD or VCCDD but the PWAC and AAC can advise the xxCDD to take those actions.


TOOO many acronyms.

[kkingston57]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

Lower prices on the championship courses= less money for maintenance and switch over to newest grasses.

[kkingston57]

The Arnold Palmer Invitational begins this week, in Orlando.

It will be televised. It will be interesting to see how El Nino affected that golf course, 40 miles away. I bet El Nino spared Bay Hill.

We can also compare night and day

[kkingston57]

A simple sign at the starters shack and on the Ambassador's cart stating:

'Reparing All Divots and Ball Marks Is Expected'.

Simple and little cost.

Agree but repairing ball marks and fixing divots is a very small part of the problems. They will cause bad spots but do not kill the grass. 90% of problems is poor maintenance, over watering(causes fungus) no regular weed killing(weeds seem to get killed after they have completely takeover)

[Dusty_Star]

Two very good ideas:

There is a meeting on Wednesday March 6 at 9:00am at the Savannah Rec Center. Some people are going there to talk to the AAC governing group about the bad condition of the Executive courses. They don't want to cause trouble; just make their opinions known. The more people that attend, the better the message will be!

Those who can, should show up. Perhaps someone can broach the next idea:

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

Who do we lobby to enact this change? How do we go about getting this done? It is a fabulous idea, & NEEDS traction.
Perhaps, an exception would be made for the developer's 'life style visits', they would be allowed full access.

[DARFAP]

You people doing the most complaining about the conditions are probably the ones that never fix ball marks, never sand divots, never rake traps, drive through wet areas, pull right up next to the greens, drive between the traps and the greens, pull off the cart path pulling up to the tee box - anyone want to add anything else?
Yes, dragging feet on the greens when walking. Pick your feet up.

[fdpaq0580]

There is a meeting on Wednesday March 6 at 9:00am at the Savannah Rec Center. Some people are going there to talk to the AAC governing group about the bad condition of the Executive courses. They don't want to cause trouble; just make their opinions known. The more people that attend, the better the message will be!

Maybe a little trouble should be expected, seeing as how this golf course "death spiral" has actually been talked about many times for a long time and no one that could have made a real difference seems to have given a flying rats, now, what is the word I'm looking for?
What I figure "they" will do is give us a lot of lip service about how " it couldn't be helped." And, how hard they have been working on it, and the weather is to blame, etc, ect, etc. Meanwhile, amenity rates have risen, raises have probably been given, all for failing to do what was needed and failing to recognize what was needed, and just failing , PERIOD! In spite of supposed credentials and experience. We support their complete and utter failure.
"This situation" (which they created by failing to take action when they should have) "is" (of course) "going to require a lot of money" (our money) "we have no option but to raise amenity fees." (again).
Grab your ankles, friends and neighbors.

[JustSomeGuy]

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

Or if a visitor pass is for less than 30 days, owner must be present when pass is issued and guest must be staying in owners unit, not a rental. Limit number of passes outstanding (owner is in town and has more guests coming they can turn in a pass and get another). Florida condo I lived in had minimum rentals of two weeks and complied with law. Governments could not prevent STR but could require inspections and charge fees for inspections. Many condos in Clearwater had minimum rentals in their covenants.

[Beyond The Wall]

Those in control know the situation. Key to get results is to be calm and always start public comments with "In my opinion....." Avoids legal threat. Post comments on facebook pages as replays, not new topics and post photos. Search as one considering the villages would on the internet and comment on those sites, again... with your opinion.

Sounds like the goal is not to get the CDD's to spend our money and raise our fees but to get the developer to change their procedures... in the areas being developed now. That will allow those in the deep south to play on new courses instead of making the trek north... on the multi modal paths.

Don't show outrage. Show disappointment.... In my opinion, this is not the Villages I expected......It is a shame how things, like the conditions of the golf courses and the shift to pitch and putts has changed the Villages. I never expected to not be able to get a tee time during the week or get a tee time on a course where, in my opinion, greens are worst than municipal courses I use to pay 35 dollars for before I moved here.....

Give those looking the questions to ask... what are my changes of getting a tee time on a Saturday during January? If I were looking at the villages I would ask for a tour of the courses (name them) before buying.... the new course by the turnpike is not the one you will be playing most weeks.....

Behavior changes when the pocket book is impacted.

Have you looked in to Sun City Center outside of Tampa? Courses were sold to a third party and now many have closed... the new owner wants to build more homes on the old courses. Very sad. Also the reason I did not consider that development. I found out via comments left on sites.

We have purchased our homes. Our leverage is near zero. But if our opinion starts to cause buyers to ask specific questions of their Villages realtor....Boom... changes will happen.

If you’re upset when you get poor service in a car dealership, don’t complain in the service area. Go into the showroom and complain there. That gets attention and sometimes action

[damvillages]

Would be interested in an organized event showing that we are fed up with conditions.

[cjrjck]

My suggestion is to start yet another thread on the very same topic as the other half a dozen threads that will do absolutely noting to fix the problem...

Yep.

[Dantes]

There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

Ask for a reduction of amenity fees

[Lpaul]

I understand there is a meeting on Wednesday morning at Savanna. Executive maintenance management will be there to discuss what they are doing. Maybe attend and offer examples of bad conditions would help!!

[Bill14564]

TOOO many acronyms.

Four is too many?

In any case, districtgov.org is very useful for understanding your local government. For example, acronyms (https://www.districtgov.org/images/Acronyms.pdf?v=20230721).

[Mulliganguy]

imo an individual player should not be allowed more than one tee time a day on executive courses. System should kick out resident #’s entered more than once in a 24 hour period!

[rockyhyder]

For the executive courses, make your feelings known at a PWAC or AAC meeting and possibly also at a SLCDD or VCCDD meeting.

PWAC and AAC are advisory boards with resident members.
SLCDD and VCCDD are developer-elected boards which actually control the amenities

Any necessary actions need to be taken by the SLCDD or VCCDD but the PWAC and AAC can advise the xxCDD to take those actions.

Bill is absolutely correct. PWAC(South of 466) and AAC(North of 466) are responsible for amenities in their respective areas. These Committees can address fixes that require budgetary changes like overseeding, etc. The VCCDD and SLCDD will have to address changes that involve personnel.

[NJRICHARD]

Played Sandhill yesterday. This course was completely renovated last year and is in very poor condition. Overuse does not cause weeds everywhere, the greens looked like they had a fungus, and the fairways were in very poor condition. I was told there is a 'new' manager taking care of the executive courses and the first thing that came into my mind was this the lowest bidder? There is a science taking care of golf courses and I wonder if this group received a D on their report cards ?

[mntlblok]

The creator of WingNut, has answered the question about the golf courses several times. There is a fungal disease. They are fighting it, but it spreads on shoes and mower equipment from one course to the other. Those who have had fungal problems with their lawns know that many times the lawn needs to be resodded and the top layer of soil removed, because the fungus is in the soil. We had fungal problems with our lawn when we were in Georgia. We had it resodded, but it eventually came back. It is a horrible problem. It will take a long time and cost a lot to fix the problem.
The developer is responsible only for those courses he has not yet released. To fix other golf courses, the monies will have to come from amenity fees in those districts.

From my first response from Howard Brown:

"As for Tarpon we are not sure why some of the greens are in worse conditions than others. We have sent soil samples out to check it there is a disease and we have not gotten the results back."

Got another response today that included the following.

"I agree it would be great to find a way to let people know about course maintenance, some of the things we do and why the courses are in the condition they are in. Unfortunately, we only respond and communicate with people who contact us and ask questions mainly due to staffing. Up until three months ago we only had 2 supervisors to manage the District’s 38 courses. We just hired 2 more supervisors so hopefully we can start being a little more proactive in getting the word out."

This is Howard.Brown@districtgov.org

Here's hoping that the meeting tomorrow morning at the Savannah Rec proves fruitful.

[mntlblok]

From my first response from Howard Brown:

"As for Tarpon we are not sure why some of the greens are in worse conditions than others. We have sent soil samples out to check it there is a disease and we have not gotten the results back."

Got another response today that included the following.

"I agree it would be great to find a way to let people know about course maintenance, some of the things we do and why the courses are in the condition they are in. Unfortunately, we only respond and communicate with people who contact us and ask questions mainly due to staffing. Up until three months ago we only had 2 supervisors to manage the District’s 38 courses. We just hired 2 more supervisors so hopefully we can start being a little more proactive in getting the word out."

This is Howard.Brown@districtgov.org

Here's hoping that the meeting tomorrow morning at the Savannah Rec proves fruitful.

I see no reason why this offer from Howard wouldn't extend to all here.

"If you are interested in learning more about the golf courses and some of the things that we do, I can get you in touch with one of my Superintendents and they could answer any questions, they love to educate people on golf course management and are pretty good at it. If you would like I can arrange for you to spend a morning shadowing them during one of our scheduled course closures and you could actually see what they do and observe all the moving parts of getting course ready for play.



In the meantime, please feel free to contact or call me if you have any questions or concerns about the courses. My cell phone number is 352-661-4291."

[fdpaq0580]

imo an individual player should not be allowed more than one tee time a day on executive courses. System should kick out resident #’s entered more than once in a 24 hour period!

Respectfully disagree. Imo all Golfers should be allowed 18 holes per day. Singles can be added to groups of 2 or 3 after their first 9 holes on a "walk-up" basis at any course they choose.
No one should be penalized for wanting to play.

[kkingston57]

There is a meeting on Wednesday March 6 at 9:00am at the Savannah Rec Center. Some people are going there to talk to the AAC governing group about the bad condition of the Executive courses. They don't want to cause trouble; just make their opinions known. The more people that attend, the better the message will be!

What district is holding this meeting? Courses closest to the Savannah Center are some of the best conditioned courses in TV

[kkingston57]

encourage all priority golfers to cancel, telling them that they raised the cost and ruined the courses at the same time! Totally unacceptable!

Priority golfers(now known as Enhanced) have 0 bearing on this problem. Most of the problems involve courses that were taken over by the Districts(AKA residents of TV)

[Rita@1]

Want to improve conditions on the executive courses ? Decrease demand :
1 - Build more executive courses in the south
2 - Have them lower the high season prices on the championship courses !

Overplay causes ball marks, scuffing, etc.. There-is-no-grass on these greens. They are dead. It's been allowed to die. This is due to a horrific lack of maintenance and treatment. Some of the greens need to be bulldozed and restarted from scratch. Homeowners should be screaming bloody murder.

[Sandy and Ed]

Take a page from the political folks. Put signs on your golf carts saying "Golf Courses Here, Yuck:yuck:," and then parade around the sales centers. We'd probably be cited for violating some law or rule, but the news people from Ocala, Leesburg and Orlando could have an interest in the story. It's doubtful whether our local paper would.
Hmmm…..might also scare away prospective buyers & renters thus keeping golfing population growth here a bit more stable??? Unintended consequences.

[Bogie Shooter]

Hmmm…..might also scare away prospective buyers & renters thus keeping golfing population growth here a bit more stable??? Unintended consequences.

Plus falling home values?

[SHIBUMI]

Solution: raise the green fees 5$ and raise the rec fee 10$. Hire 1 qualified superintendent for every Championship Course and 1 qualified superintendent for every 4-5 executive courses. To properly care for a golf course you need one good set of agronomy eyes on the ground all the time. Small increase will create great value in better conditions and higher home values.
Win-Win. :BigApplause:


There have been many threads this spring about the deplorable exec and champ course conditions. In my experience, the executives are worse than they’ve been in the last few years, the champs are as bad as the have been historically (albeit not good, just about the same as the last few years). For example, Havana has been bad the last few years.

WHAT DO WE (as residents) DO?
email the paper?
Email someone in the developer’s org?
Email someone in the districts org (or some other home owner org)?

We should be coordinated;; i.e. the same message to the same group of people.

Any ideas?

[biker1]

Again, there is no arbitrary raising of the rec (aka amenities) fee. The increases are tied to the CPI.

Solution: raise the green fees 5$ and raise the rec fee 10$. Hire 1 qualified superintendent for every Championship Course and 1 qualified superintendent for every 4-5 executive courses. To properly care for a golf course you need one good set of agronomy eyes on the ground all the time. Small increase will create great value in better conditions and higher home values.
Win-Win. :BigApplause:

[golfing eagles]

Solution: raise the green fees 5$ and raise the rec fee 10$. Hire 1 qualified superintendent for every Championship Course and 1 qualified superintendent for every 4-5 executive courses. To properly care for a golf course you need one good set of agronomy eyes on the ground all the time. Small increase will create great value in better conditions and higher home values.
Win-Win. :BigApplause:

I agree with hiring better maintenance personnel, but as per post #23, I think the money is already there for champ courses without raising fees further. Probably for execs as well, but the problem with raising the amenity fee is that not everyone plays golf. Perhaps raising the trail fee if needed? Besides, $10/month x 70,000 homes = $8.4 million/year---doubt it would cost that much

[Beyond The Wall]

Which brings up another point I've made before. Florida law may prevent communities from regulating short term rentals, but The Villages are under no obligation whatsoever to give guest passes to STRs. Would reduce the problem in a hurry. (Yes, I realize that it is technically not a guest pass but a transfer of owner ID, but no reason that couldn't be changed to exclude rentals of less than 1 month)

I feel it’s the current number of courses, as well as the poor maintenance. Who needs 3 or 4 or 5 Pitch and Putts! No one ever request them. They are the last resort just to play. Developer just keeps adding people without amenities! Pickleball courts are starting to feel the pressure also. Look for more Disc Golf! Cheaper to maintain .
As far as restricting guest passes; try and get a tee time with a guest. You will be playing a Pitch and putt!
The length of rental should not be a factor. Need more courses. Convert 2 Pand Ps to exc

[Beyond The Wall]

TOOO many acronyms.

Looks like a tax return forms page

[Vermilion Villager]

I have golfed several executive and championship golf courses over the last two months and yes some of them are in horrible shape. However, there are a whole lot of them that are actually in very good to excellent shape.

I thought about sharing the good ones but then realized that might be the same as telling everybody where your secret fishing spot is.

My advice is to go out and try several different courses in several areas… You might be surprised that you'll actually find what you're looking for.:gc:

[ThirdOfFive]

I have golfed several executive and championship golf courses over the last two months and yes some of them are in horrible shape. However, there are a whole lot of them that are actually in very good to excellent shape.

I thought about sharing the good ones but then realized that might be the same as telling everybody where your secret fishing spot is.

My advice is to go out and try several different courses in several areas… You might be surprised that you'll actually find what you're looking for.:gc:
Agreed. We're trying to play as many different courses as possible. The last two we've played have been Hilltop and Lowlands. Both (with the exception of some fairway mud in a couple of low spots) were in very good condition.

That has been the rule rather than the exception for us in the last couple of months.

[golfing eagles]

I have golfed several executive and championship golf courses over the last two months and yes some of them are in horrible shape. However, there are a whole lot of them that are actually in very good to excellent shape.

I thought about sharing the good ones but then realized that might be the same as telling everybody where your secret fishing spot is.

My advice is to go out and try several different courses in several areas… You might be surprised that you'll actually find what you're looking for.:gc:

I think part of the question is: WHY are some courses horrible and others in good shape?

[tophcfa]

I think part of the question is: WHY are some courses horrible and others in good shape?

And in general, Southern courses are in worse shape?

[golfing eagles]

And in general, Southern courses are in worse shape?

Sort of. Southern Oaks is the best of the 7 "southern" courses. Bonifay, Belle Glade and Mallory are "OK". Cane is questionable and Evans/Havana are horrific.

[ernpertuc]

The real issue is that the curses do not get any rest at all. In Oregon, where our second house is, and locations further north, the courses lie dormant for months while it is cold and snowy. This allows the courses to rest. It also allows times for supers to perform maintenance. When the weather permits the good courses aerate prior to opening and water liberally to get the grass back into shape before cutting.

While closing all the courses in The villages would cause a riot there should be a plan to allow some of the courses to be closed for up to 3 months while they are allowed to recover and whomever to perform maintenance.

Another issue is that this season has been unusually dry so there is not enough time to put enough water on the courses and keep them open. It does not matter who takes care of them.

A large issue is the expectations of owners v.s. a finite resource. Number of players has increased much faster than courses have been created. There is little or nothing that can be done about this as the Developer has determined that golf courses are a loss leader and they have enough folks buying that they no longer need to entice folks with the local "protected courses". I would not be surprised if there was not a push by outside courses to move Villagers to them.

I love being able to get in my cart and drive to a course and play. I think it will be harder in the future to get on to a course that is worth playing. All things come to an end. Unless the powers that be take a hard look at what they have it will be gone in a few years.

[golfing eagles]

The real issue is that the curses do not get any rest at all. In Oregon, where our second house is, and locations further north, the courses lie dormant for months while it is cold and snowy. This allows the courses to rest. It also allows times for supers to perform maintenance. When the weather permits the good courses aerate prior to opening and water liberally to get the grass back into shape before cutting.

While closing all the courses in The villages would cause a riot there should be a plan to allow some of the courses to be closed for up to 3 months while they are allowed to recover and whomever to perform maintenance.

Another issue is that this season has been unusually dry so there is not enough time to put enough water on the courses and keep them open. It does not matter who takes care of them.

A large issue is the expectations of owners v.s. a finite resource. Number of players has increased much faster than courses have been created. There is little or nothing that can be done about this as the Developer has determined that golf courses are a loss leader and they have enough folks buying that they no longer need to entice folks with the local "protected courses". I would not be surprised if there was not a push by outside courses to move Villagers to them.

I love being able to get in my cart and drive to a course and play. I think it will be harder in the future to get on to a course that is worth playing. All things come to an end. Unless the powers that be take a hard look at what they have it will be gone in a few years.

If that were the "real issue", then ALL courses in Florida would suck. Courses here are rested, closing some 9's each day, the greens are aerated 3x/year. None of that explains the difference in condition between Southern Oaks/Glenview and Evans Prairie/Havana.

[BrianL99]

Another issue is that this season has been unusually dry so there is not enough time to put enough water on the courses and keep them open. It does not matter who takes care of them.




Checking your facts might have been a good place to start.


Climate Summary for Florida - February 2024 - Florida Climate Center (https://climatecenter.fsu.edu/products-services/summaries?view=article&id=640)

Orlando January 2024 Historical Weather Data (Florida, United States) - Weather Spark (https://weatherspark.com/h/m/17721/2024/1/Historical-Weather-in-January-2024-in-Orlando-Florida-United-States)

Yes, winter in Florida has been crazy different. Here’s how the rest of the season will play out (https://www.clickorlando.com/weather/2024/01/18/yes-winter-in-florida-has-been-crazy-different-heres-how-the-rest-of-the-season-will-play-out/)

NOAA forecasting a wetter winter in Central Florida. Here’s what we’re in for (https://www.clickorlando.com/weather/2023/10/19/noaa-forecasting-a-wetter-winter-in-central-florida-heres-what-were-in-for/)

[fdpaq0580]

I think part of the question is: WHY are some courses horrible and others in good shape?

Correct! That's the question. The answer, in my enfeebled mind, lies not in what the powers that be are telling us what they are doing, but in what they are NOT doing. Managers are not managing, or are not capable. Supervisors aren't supervising or or they don't really know what they should be doing. They have failed!
All courses should meet or exceed certain standards and never, repeat, never be allowed to fall below set standards lest people be replaced.
The time for new, healthy grass is here. Kill the fungus/disease, weed, feed and reseed, if needed, and the courses should look better then the best lawns in the community in as short a time.
Oh, and the equipment (mowers, equipment carts, and even the workers boots) should be cleaned after each course before it has a chance of transporting, fungus, disease, weeds, etc, to another course.
That's just for starters. The golf courses aren't just for golfers. The scenic views, and beautiful open spaces enhance life in The Villages in ways we seldom or never think about. They are our community jewelry and the hire caretakers aren't doing a very good job of protecting them. And, that is my most humble opinion.
Have a great day!

[Two Bills]

The real issue is that the curses do not get any rest at all.

Given the state of some of the courses, you can't wonder at it! :icon_wink:

[HORNET]

If Villagers ( golfers) would treat the courses properly and clean up, drive on the paths and/ or rough, then maybe things would turn around!

[HORNET]

Right On!

[SHIBUMI]

The bottom line, no matter how you pay for it is, 1 course 1 super-Championship Courses.

4-5 Execs. 1 Super......... this will almost guarantee better conditions and not have the same cutting patterns on every layout.

1-1 or 4-5 is the rallying cry..................then all the courses will have a different look to them...
I agree with hiring better maintenance personnel, but as per post #23, I think the money is already there for champ courses without raising fees further. Probably for execs as well, but the problem with raising the amenity fee is that not everyone plays golf. Perhaps raising the trail fee if needed? Besides, $10/month x 70,000 homes = $8.4 million/year---doubt it would cost that much

[dewilson58]

I think part of the question is: WHY are some courses horrible and others in good shape?

Jus learned this week...........Same Maint Crew, Same Maint Equipment at EP and Bonifay.

All the equipment comes out of the same location.

Two totally different course conditions.

:shrug:

[BrianL99]

If that were the "real issue", then ALL courses in Florida would suck. Courses here are rested, closing some 9's each day, the greens are aerated 3x/year. None of that explains the difference in condition between Southern Oaks/Glenview and Evans Prairie/Havana.

I played golf with a guy today, who's worked in The Villages golf operation, for over 10 years.

He said something to me, that may help explain why some courses are better than others.

He said:

We need maintenance people who actually consider what they're doing, try to do a good job, and "not just check off the boxes on their list".

So what follows is pure speculation. I have no information, either way. Read it or don't.

There are different ways to write contracts and hire sub-contractors. If I were to lump all labor contracts into only 2 categories, I would put them under "Task Based" or "Performance/Results Based".

A) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "performance/results based", the task the company was hired to perform, would be to "maintain the golf course using all available means, to insure the course is always in the best possible playing condition and consistent with other similar and/or competing courses in the general area" (some words to that effect). If you don't meet the expectations, you don't get paid.

B) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "task based", the contractor is being hired to "1. Mow the fairways every 2 days. 2. Mow all greens, 4 times per week. 3. Apply fertilizer every 90 days. 4. Aerate greens once each season. 5. Mechanically rake all bunkers once per week." (A list of tasks and frequency to perform them).. In which case, as long as you "check off all the boxes", you get paid.

Managing turf at a golf course, is not simply a "task based" operation. The needs change daily. The schedule changes, at the whim of the weather. Sometimes, you don't need to fertilize or kill weeks for 3 months ... sometimes, you need to kill weeds most every day. At Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, the greens were punched (small tine) every month. Some courses don't need or want to do that. It's an on the ground, site-specific decision.

There is no "one size fits all" for managing turf at a golf course ... even courses that are located right next to each other, have different needs, based on a myriad of factors.

So the question of "why are some courses in better condition than others", might boil down to: "Is management paying for the "completion of tasks" or "paying for results/performance?".

Supposedly there was an article in today's newspaper, about the conditions of the Executive courses. I'm going to try to find it, now.

[tophcfa]

The highly unusual article in the sports section of today’s Daily Sun, which attempted to address the golfing conditions, doubled down on the lame El Niño excuse. Apparently El Niño hovers over Havana and Evans Prairie, but stays away from the likes of Glenview, Tierra, Hacienda, and Lopez?

[BrianL99]

The highly unusual article in the sports section of today’s Daily Sun, which attempted to address the golfing conditions, doubled down on the lame El Niño excuse. Apparently El Niño hovers over Havana and Evans Prairie, but stays away from the likes of Glenview, Tierra, Hacienda, and Lopez?

I couldn't find the article, thanks for the info. [I just went to their website again and can't find the article. Apparently subscribers are the only ones who get the good stuff]

Played TDS today. El Nino definitely hasn't been there. Probably got tied up in traffic.

I can't wait to watch the Bay Hill on TV this weekend. Hopefully, El Nino hasn't wrecked havoc on that course. Of course, it is 40 miles away and I've heard El Nino is on a short leash.

[Papa_lecki]

I played golf with a guy today, who's worked in The Villages golf operation, for over 10 years.

He said something to me, that may help explain why some courses are better than others.

He said:

We need maintenance people who actually consider what they're doing, try to do a good job, and "not just check off the boxes on their list".

So what follows is pure speculation. I have no information, either way. Read it or don't.

There are different ways to write contracts and hire sub-contractors. If I were to lump all labor contracts into only 2 categories, I would put them under "Task Based" or "Performance/Results Based".

A) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "performance/results based", the task the company was hired to perform, would be to "maintain the golf course using all available means, to insure the course is always in the best possible playing condition and consistent with other similar and/or competing courses in the general area" (some words to that effect). If you don't meet the expectations, you don't get paid.

B) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "task based", the contractor is being hired to "1. Mow the fairways every 2 days. 2. Mow all greens, 4 times per week. 3. Apply fertilizer every 90 days. 4. Aerate greens once each season. 5. Mechanically rake all bunkers once per week." (A list of tasks and frequency to perform them).. In which case, as long as you "check off all the boxes", you get paid.

Managing turf at a golf course, is not simply a "task based" operation. The needs change daily. The schedule changes, at the whim of the weather. Sometimes, you don't need to fertilize or kill weeks for 3 months ... sometimes, you need to kill weeds most every day. At Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, the greens were punched (small tine) every month. Some courses don't need or want to do that. It's an on the ground, site-specific decision.

There is no "one size fits all" for managing turf at a golf course ... even courses that are located right next to each other, have different needs, based on a myriad of factors.

Supposedly there was an article in today's newspaper, about the conditions of the Executive courses. I'm going to try to find it, now.

Great post - so true.

[SHIBUMI]

Reinforces my solution of 1 super per Championship Course........agronomy boots on the ground are needed..................


I played golf with a guy today, who's worked in The Villages golf operation, for over 10 years.

He said something to me, that may help explain why some courses are better than others.

He said:

We need maintenance people who actually consider what they're doing, try to do a good job, and "not just check off the boxes on their list".

So what follows is pure speculation. I have no information, either way. Read it or don't.

There are different ways to write contracts and hire sub-contractors. If I were to lump all labor contracts into only 2 categories, I would put them under "Task Based" or "Performance/Results Based".

A) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "performance/results based", the task the company was hired to perform, would be to "maintain the golf course using all available means, to insure the course is always in the best possible playing condition and consistent with other similar and/or competing courses in the general area" (some words to that effect). If you don't meet the expectations, you don't get paid.

B) IF the contracts to manage the golf courses in TV are "task based", the contractor is being hired to "1. Mow the fairways every 2 days. 2. Mow all greens, 4 times per week. 3. Apply fertilizer every 90 days. 4. Aerate greens once each season. 5. Mechanically rake all bunkers once per week." (A list of tasks and frequency to perform them).. In which case, as long as you "check off all the boxes", you get paid.

Managing turf at a golf course, is not simply a "task based" operation. The needs change daily. The schedule changes, at the whim of the weather. Sometimes, you don't need to fertilize or kill weeks for 3 months ... sometimes, you need to kill weeds most every day. At Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, the greens were punched (small tine) every month. Some courses don't need or want to do that. It's an on the ground, site-specific decision.

There is no "one size fits all" for managing turf at a golf course ... even courses that are located right next to each other, have different needs, based on a myriad of factors.

Supposedly there was an article in today's newspaper, about the conditions of the Executive courses. I'm going to try to find it, now.

[fdpaq0580]

I couldn't find the article, thanks for the info. [I just went to their website again and can't find the article. Apparently subscribers are the only ones who get the good stuff]

Played TDS today. El Nino definitely hasn't been there. Probably got tied up in traffic.

I can't wait to watch the Bay Hill on TV this weekend. Hopefully, El Nino hasn't wrecked havoc on that course. Of course, it is 40 miles away and I've heard El Nino is on a short leash.

El Nino is a cop out and proof they are incompetent and/or just too lazy to do the work needed. Won't "man up" that this is plain and simple mismanagement.

[BrianL99]

Reinforces my solution of 1 super per Championship Course........agronomy boots on the ground are needed..................

You're right, but the owners would say they already have that.

The problem is, what they (the owners) characterize as a "Superintendent", would be characterized as the #3 or #4 guy on the maintenance crew at a 1st class golf course.

For $18/hour, they're not exactly hiring Manny Francis or Bert Fredericks.

[ThirdOfFive]

If Villagers ( golfers) would treat the courses properly and clean up, drive on the paths and/ or rough, then maybe things would turn around!
Not a panacea, but it would help. Some of the greens on courses we've played over the past couple of months looked like they had measles from all the ball marks.

[BrianL99]

Not a panacea, but it would help. Some of the greens on courses we've played over the past couple of months looked like they had measles from all the ball marks.

I think that's a cop out.

After 3 years in TV of 100+ rounds a year, the typical golfer in TV isn't hitting all that many greens. The ones the majority of players are hitting, the ball is rolling onto the green, it's not a shot with a 100' apex, hit with spin. (Apex Height - TrackMan Golf (https://blog.trackmangolf.com/apex-height/)).

The greens in TV are too soft. I hate to keep using the same course example, but the course I know best in this area, is Southern Hills Plantation. Unless it recently rained, 500 typical TV players could play that course every day and there wouldn't be 10 ball marks at the end of the day. Unless it's a PGA Tour Qualifying day at SHPC, no one is making ball marks there. Their greens are hard and running at 10.5 - 11.

Should golfers repair their ball marks? Of course. Players not cleaning up after themselves is a problem at every course. Does it excuse greens with no grass? No. Does it change the fact that TV greens are soft and mushy? No. Can proper maintenance and horticultural practices address ball marks? Yes.

There's usually a reason for excessive ball marks on greens, especially in an environment like TV, where the typical golfer is rolling a 5 iron onto the green.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/61/issue-08/there-s-more-to-bad-ball-marks-than-soft-greens.html

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/60/15/making-ball-marks-disappear.html

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/61/issue-14/what-is-thatch-and-why-should-i-care-.html

[golfing eagles]

El Nino is a cop out and proof they are incompetent and/or just too lazy to do the work needed. Won't "man up" that this is plain and simple mismanagement.

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301)

Oh, well, here's the URL: 404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301)

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Bill14564]

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301)

Oh, well, here's the URL: 404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301)

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I believe this is the link you were trying to post.

https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20240307001301

[golfing eagles]

I believe this is the link you were trying to post.

https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20240307001301

The problem was probably I copied it from the post rather than going to the web page and copying it from the URL bar. Thank you

[Papa_lecki]

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301)

Oh, well, here's the URL: 404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/...20240307001301)

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I don’t think the courses are this way due to lack of trying. It seems that, given the resources that are available and being spent on the problem, the powers that be can come up with a solution. It’s not like this is a new problem since Jan 2024.

[golfing eagles]

I don’t think the courses are this way due to lack of trying. It seems that, given the resources that are available and being spent on the problem, the powers that be can come up with a solution. It’s not like this is a new problem since Jan 2024.

I don't think there is any one solution.

First of all, while not the whole problem, El Nino and a fungus have caused more problems than usual in our high season, which is why I believe this year has the worst course conditions I've seen in 10 years here (not that most winters are great, but this is probably the worst)

Secondly, I have to believe that the scale of golf maintenance in TV is an enormous problem. We can cite conditions at Juliette Falls, Golden Ocala and Bay Hill all we want, but it has to be easier to take care of 18-36 holes than the 693 holes we have here. The next largest complex I know of in FL is PGA National with 90 holes, and even the conditions at the Squire course are sub-optimal. I think BrianL has a solution---divide the courses into smaller groups and get a first class agronomist in charge. No matter how I add it up, I believe the money as already there.

Lastly, everyone needs to be responsible for the damage they cause. Why do some golfers think they don't have to fill divots, fix ball marks and rake traps? Why do some, especially those with CAP tags, think it is OK to drive up to the edge of greens, between greenside bunkers, and ignore the restrictions of "cart path only" days? My friends son is an assistant pro at a very exclusive club in Boca. They have cameras on every hole, trackers in every golf cart and a central monitoring room where someone is watching all the screens. If you fall behind, you get a warning, and if you don't catch up, you are asked to move up a hole as well as get a "demerit". If you don't rake a trap or fill a divot----demerits. Get a few demerits and you are banned for a week, then a month, and then ejected from the club. With a $150,000 non-refundable bond, you can imagine that everyone avoids demerits.

Obviously we can't do that here, but I would advocate giving the ambassadors more power and have management back them. Let them move people up a hole if warranted. Let them issue a "demerit" for not raking or filling. Yes, a very few ambassadors will go on a power trip, but they'll get weeded out in a hurry and asked to experience "alternative career opportunity enhancement". Possible penalties for accumulating demerits could include banning tee times for a period of time, or my favorite, charging double the greens fee so we can pay someone to clean up the damage these "entitled' golfers cause.

[fdpaq0580]

I don’t think the courses are this way due to lack of trying. It seems that, given the resources that are available and being spent on the problem, the powers that be can come up with a solution. It’s not like this is a new problem since Jan 2024.

El Nino this year was not a surprise. It is a well known weather pattern that happens on a somewhat regular basis. Lawn fungus is well known here, and if identified early on can be dealt with before or runs rampant and is spread. There have been complaints about the courses since we moved here over 10 years ago and from what I've read over those ten years, each year has been worse then the year before. A Death Spiral if I may refer to it as such. It has been blamed on everything from snowbirds to El Nino. This has been a tough year on the grass, but we knew (or the ones in charge should have known) and taken PROactive measures to ensure the courses were well fed and protected. The lawn "specialists" should have been in the field weekly if not daily to look for signs of trouble and dealt with it immediately. The current situation could have been much better then what we have now.
No. I am not a master gardener or have any special expertise in golf course management or maintenance. But I am a fairly keen observer and a caring resident and golfer. Several of my neighbors who maintain their own yards have amazing lawns. El Nino hasn't been noticed and it is just a matter of looking with pride at what they have grown and addressing the first sign of a problem. It is called caring.

[golfing eagles]

El Nino this year was not a surprise. It is a well known weather pattern that happens on a somewhat regular basis. Lawn fungus is well known here, and if identified early on can be dealt with before or runs rampant and is spread. There have been complaints about the courses since we moved here over 10 years ago and from what I've read over those ten years, each year has been worse then the year before. A Death Spiral if I may refer to it as such. It has been blamed on everything from snowbirds to El Nino. This has been a tough year on the grass, but we knew (or the ones in charge should have known) and taken PROactive measures to ensure the courses were well fed and protected. The lawn "specialists" should have been in the field weekly if not daily to look for signs of trouble and dealt with it immediately. The current situation could have been much better then what we have now.
No. I am not a master gardener or have any special expertise in golf course management or maintenance. But I am a fairly keen observer and a caring resident and golfer. Several of my neighbors who maintain their own yards have amazing lawns. El Nino hasn't been noticed and it is just a matter of looking with pride at what they have grown and addressing the first sign of a problem. It is called caring.

Neither am I, but I think we both have 20/20 hindsight

[wseward]

I thought the letter regarding the course conditions was very informational. They have heard the complaints and have a plan in place. When there is a problem like this communication is so important. Without information too many "experts" are uninformed and stir the pot. My take is that if the golf directors follow their plan we will see improved conditions over the next few years.

[fdpaq0580]

Neither am I, but I think we both have 20/20 hindsight

High Five that! 🙃😉

[fdpaq0580]

I thought the letter regarding the course conditions was very informational. They have heard the complaints and have a plan in place. When there is a problem like this communication is so important. Without information too many "experts" are uninformed and stir the pot. My take is that if the golf directors follow their plan we will see improved conditions over the next few years.

It doesn't always take an expert to recognize when the expert has failed. My take is, if the plan is "business as usual " then the death spiral will continue. If it is a new plan and if they don't stay flexible and proactive then I have little confidence in any timely improvement. G W Bush once said those fateful words, "Stay the course"! Capt. Queeg followed that strategy and USS Caine cut its tow cable. Point is one needs to recognize a problem and "nip it in the bud" before it becomes a major problem. Despite the lip service, those in charge failed to do that. Can we believe that the ones who lead us here are the ones we can trust to fix things, or are we throwing good money after bad.

[BrianL99]

There is a link (below) from another thread on this subject, so I can't take credit. However, I encourage all the naysayers, the "greedy developer" crowd, the "they don't care as long as houses are selling" crowd, and all the other anti-Villages whiners to read. Then ask themselves how many millions of dollars are they pouring into this problem? It's not like "they" are unaware and not addressing it. I hope they do the same for the championship courses.

…..

OK, then try the thread "District weekly bulletin"

Clearly technical difficulties, it's almost like posting a link to the forbidden news site :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

The missing link: []404 - File or directory not found. (https://www.districtgov.org/WeeklyBulletin.aspx) [March 2024]


It doesn't always take an expert to recognize when the expert has failed. My take is, if the plan is "business as usual " then the death spiral will continue. If it is a new plan and if they don't stay flexible and proactive then I have little confidence in any timely improvement. G W Bush once said those fateful words, "Stay the course"! Capt. Queeg followed that strategy and USS Caine cut its tow cable. Point is one needs to recognize a problem and "nip it in the bud" before it becomes a major problem. Despite the lip service, those in charge failed to do that. Can we believe that the ones who lead us here are the ones we can trust to fix things, or are we throwing good money after bad.

It was a very well written and thoughtful response by the District. I'm sure they paid a public relations firm a boat full of money for that bit of prose. if not, whoever they have in house is a great writer, with a terrific grasp of public relations.

I would like to call attention to the following (from the District's Weekly Bulletin):

"The department maintains an ongoing 15-year capital improvement plan, which contains a
master schedule for all major renovations, smaller projects and aesthetic enhancements. Each year the plan is reviewed and updated based on the newest technologies available and evolving needs of the courses. Two years ago, Executive Golf Maintenance announced that we need to renovate courses every 10-12 years to provide the quality golf experience that our residents desire and deserve. Our current plan is to fully renovate at least 4 to 5 courses every year. This takes time, as a full renovation can take from 9 to 12 months and pulling 4 to 5 courses out of service at a time means slightly reduced tee time availability."

Golf course generally don't need "renovation" every 10-12 years. They may need new bunkers every 20 years, new irrigation every 30 years and new greens every 40 years ... but they do not need renovation every 10 - 12 years .... UNLESS:

What that paragraphs says to me, is this.

Every 10-12 years, we're going to completely renovate our courses. We are going to use quality contractors to do it and we're going to do it right. Once those courses are finished, we're going to maintain them, as we always have. Don''t worry, after 10 years of low-budget maintenance, we'll re-build them again.

In the meantime, you the residents get about a year of 100% quality from your "newly renovated golf course". The next year, it will decline to 90% quality. After 5 years, conditions will be down to 50% and continue on the decline until the 10-12 year cycle for re-building is reached.


There is a contract out right now under discussion, to renovate 2 Executive Courses. The estimate was $1.9M and the lowest bidder is at $1.4M. (https://www.**************.com/2024/03/01/aac-to-consider-1-4-million-upgrade-for-two-executive-golf-courses/)

If we were to assume those golf courses are 10 years old, that's $70,000 per year, per golf course.

Simple question. Why would we not invest that $70,000/year/course, to maintain it in such a way, that it won't need to be re-built again, in 10 years? (& to put $70,000 into perspective, the average yearly cost to maintain an Executive Golf Course in very good condition, is likely in the $200,000-$250,000 range.


BTW, played Laurel to Riley, TDS & Fox Run, Tally Ho & Stirrup Cup over the last 4 days. All are markedly improved from last month. Even the bunkers at Glenview were power-raked today.

[Billy1]

Yes, get the word out to potential buyers and renters that golf is very limited in the Villages.

[Bogie Shooter]

Yes, get the word out to potential buyers and renters that golf is very limited in the Villages.

And the purpose……?

[fdpaq0580]

And the purpose……?

Public service announcement. You wouldn't want folks to shell out all that money and end up unhappy and cursing us for not warning them, would you?