More On Golf Course Conditions

[Steve]

There was a big article in the Thursday (3/7/24) Villages Daily Sun making excuses for the lousy conditions of our golf courses. Well, the people who take care of those courses should take the short drive to Continental Country Club and ask them how they do it down there. Six members of my golf group played there yesterday and discovered the greens were impeccable, the fairways well grassed and the bunkers were raked and had very good sand in them. And their afternoon rate was just $34.95 + Tax, less than half the cost of most of The Villages courses. Same El Nino, same "too much rain", same "too much cloud cover". If CCC can do it why can't The Villages?

[Laker14]

There was a big article in the Thursday (3/7/24) Villages Daily Sun making excuses for the lousy conditions of our golf courses. Well, the people who take care of those courses should take the short drive to Continental Country Club and ask them how they do it down there. Six members of my golf group played there yesterday and discovered the greens were impeccable, the fairways well grassed and the bunkers were raked and had very good sand in them. And their afternoon rate was just $34.95 + Tax, less than half the cost of most of The Villages courses. Same El Nino, same "too much rain", same "too much cloud cover". If CCC can do it why can't The Villages?

yeah, but...

[Stu from NYC]

Did you think the Sun would say something negative about something under the control of the developer?

[BrianL99]

There was a big article in the Thursday (3/7/24) Villages Daily Sun making excuses for the lousy conditions of our golf courses. Well, the people who take care of those courses should take the short drive to Continental Country Club and ask them how they do it down there. Six members of my golf group played there yesterday and discovered the greens were impeccable, the fairways well grassed and the bunkers were raked and had very good sand in them. And their afternoon rate was just $34.95 + Tax, less than half the cost of most of The Villages courses. Same El Nino, same "too much rain", same "too much cloud cover". If CCC can do it why can't The Villages?

Unconfirmed, as the source was FaceBook, but apparently Havana has been closed, do to the poor condition of the Greens.

[P A Paul]

Would love for all the negative energy expended for complaints/excuses to be channeled into solutions and preventative measures. Need a “we’ll make this the best golf money can buy” attitude from the “powers that be”. Would love to see “comeback retirement community of the year” award earned.

[DALEPQ]

The practice green at Palmer continues to be in really great shape, even though it gets heavy
constant use all day long.
Why? ..................because it is constantly being maintained.
Why not the same for executive/championship greens???
Ask the T.V. management!!!
The flowers are changed 4 times per year, how many times per year for the golf courses????
Sarcastic, YUP, so be it.

[Laker14]

The practice green at Palmer continues to be in really great shape, even though it gets heavy
constant use all day long.
Why? ..................because it is constantly being maintained.
Why not the same for executive/championship greens???
Ask the T.V. management!!!
The flowers are changed 4 times per year, how many times per year for the golf courses????
Sarcastic, YUP, so be it.

You make a good point about the condition of the practice green at Palmer. There are always people on it. I'm not sure how big a difference this makes, but there are no high iron shots punching it, so you don't have that issue, but I think that's a relatively small problem compared to general lack of grass on most greens in TV.

[mrf0151]

FYI, Roosevelt greens are 50% Dirt now.

[Flyers999]

I read the article. Apparently it was only referring to the Executive courses. Blaming cloud cover? My front lawn is as green as it gets?
At least we know now who's responsible, it's a Mr. Mitch Leininger, head of Executive golf maintenance. Apparently he's had that position for quite some time.

[tophcfa]

Unconfirmed, as the source was FaceBook, but apparently Havana has been closed, do to the poor condition of the Greens.

Yesterday, two employees at Belle Glade told me Havana was closing due to conditions. The greens at Belle Glade were running slow but were in good shape. It was a fun round and there was noticeable new growth on the fairways. The growing season appears to have begun.

[BrianL99]

Yesterday, two employees at Belle Glade told me Havana was closing due to conditions. The greens at Belle Glade were running slow but were in good shape. It was a fun round and there was noticeable new growth on the fairways. The growing season appears to have begun.

I've noticed a definitive improvement in conditions, at every course I've played this past week or 2. That's certainly partially attributable to the weather.

I've also noted and increase in activity by the grounds crews. That's not an accident, it seems an obvious attempt to improve the conditions.

While everyone is fond of saying, "complaining on TOTV won't help", social media is a powerful force in today's world. There's no question in my mind, the the Developer (owner of the Championship courses) has definitely received the message that folks aren't happy with sub-par conditions and is trying to improve things.

As I don't play Executive courses, I can't report any 1st hand experience, but based on some of the communications coming from the District Office, it looks like they have also gotten the message.

& before anyone starts the "too little too late" refrain, that's simply not true in my opinion.

The Villages can be and has been, a golf mecca, and has other hugely positive attributes. The fact that the message has been received and action has begun, I think is a huge step forward. Thanks Rickey & Mitch (& anyone else responsible). Keep it going.

[Golden Domer]

I have heard rumblings recently that a group of Priority Members have been discussing a "boycott day / week" ....... anyone else heard anything about this ?

[village dreamer]

FYI, Roosevelt greens are 50% Dirt now.

more like 80% dirt.....

[HIgolfers]

Unconfirmed, as the source was FaceBook, but apparently Havana has been closed, do to the poor condition of the Greens.

Havana is closed. Went on Villages.net and no tee times available at all.

[BrianL99]

Havana is closed. Went on Villages.net and no tee times available at all.

Evans Prairie will be next. Maybe by next Friday?

Not trying to start any rumors, just reading the Tea Leaves.

[Jayhawk]

Did you think the Sun would say something negative about something under the control of the developer?

Did you make a habit of publicly criticizing a former employer, ever?

[Jayhawk]

There was a big article in the Thursday (3/7/24) Villages Daily Sun making excuses for the lousy conditions of our golf courses. Well, the people who take care of those courses should take the short drive to Continental Country Club and ask them how they do it down there. Six members of my golf group played there yesterday and discovered the greens were impeccable, the fairways well grassed and the bunkers were raked and had very good sand in them. And their afternoon rate was just $34.95 + Tax, less than half the cost of most of The Villages courses. Same El Nino, same "too much rain", same "too much cloud cover". If CCC can do it why can't The Villages?

Do they get the same amount of use that The Villages does? Here, it's four off about every 10 minutes, all day every day.

[Mrfriendly]

Havana is closed. Went on Villages.net and no tee times available at all.

We walk around Havana every day and it is closed and it is certainly looking like it should be opened very soon. Fairways and greens are green and lush.

[BrianL99]

Do they get the same amount of use that The Villages does? Here, it's four off about every 10 minutes, all day every day.

7 minutes - then 8 minutes at TDS or OBG. I'm not sure how they came up with that one.

8 minutes at most courses.

9 minutes at Palmer Legends

[mkjelenbaas]

There was a big article in the Thursday (3/7/24) Villages Daily Sun making excuses for the lousy conditions of our golf courses. Well, the people who take care of those courses should take the short drive to Continental Country Club and ask them how they do it down there. Six members of my golf group played there yesterday and discovered the greens were impeccable, the fairways well grassed and the bunkers were raked and had very good sand in them. And their afternoon rate was just $34.95 + Tax, less than half the cost of most of The Villages courses. Same El Nino, same "too much rain", same "too much cloud cover". If CCC can do it why can't The Villages?
Check out Harbor Hills - in great condition and prices are much less than TV??

[Steve]

Do they get the same amount of use that The Villages does? Here, it's four off about every 10 minutes, all day every day.

I don't know about "all day every day." I've been at TV Championship courses where the afternoon wave is over by 12:30. As for Continental, they have a morning shotgun which is usually full and some days a PM shotgun and on the other days straight tee times. Either way, every time we play down there they have a lot of players!

[Hape2Bhr]

Unconfirmed, as the source was FaceBook, but apparently Havana has been closed, do to the poor condition of the Greens.

They should move the maintenance crew from First Responders to the golf courses. The grasses on the putting course and lawn bowling are in beautiful condition!

[waynet]

Our groups have taken Havana and Evans Praire off our playlists and we went in and told management why. Told both places we would not be back until conditions are better. Also went into the bar area and told bartender and wait staff. We usually have between 24 and 32 players. I know there are other large groups that play and hope they will do the same thing. We could call it a large group boycott.

[fdpaq0580]

Evans Prairie will be next. Maybe by next Friday?

Not trying to start any rumors, just reading the Tea Leaves.

That saves us from having to boycott those two.

[BrianL99]

I don't know about "all day every day." I've been at TV Championship courses where the afternoon wave is over by 12:30. As for Continental, they have a morning shotgun which is usually full and some days a PM shotgun and on the other days straight tee times. Either way, every time we play down there they have a lot of players!

I don't know where you're playing or when, but I can assure you, the 2nd Wave has been FULL at Palmer, Glenview & Mallory, every day of decent weather, since December.

[Jayhawk]

7 minutes - then 8 minutes at TDS or OBG. I'm not sure how they came up with that one.

8 minutes at most courses.

9 minutes at Palmer Legends

10 minutes at Truman and Roosevelt. I used the most conservative number to make the point.

[HORNET]

Great! Play there. But remember, over all it isn’t worth it. I have been there, and I think that it’s not that nice overall! How about the crappy carts!

[Steve]

Great! Play there. But remember, over all it isn’t worth it. I have been there, and I think that it’s not that nice overall! How about the crappy carts!

Just played there last Thursday and the carts are all new!

[DoreenH]

There was a big article in the Thursday (3/7/24) Villages Daily Sun making excuses for the lousy conditions of our golf courses. Well, the people who take care of those courses should take the short drive to Continental Country Club and ask them how they do it down there. Six members of my golf group played there yesterday and discovered the greens were impeccable, the fairways well grassed and the bunkers were raked and had very good sand in them. And their afternoon rate was just $34.95 + Tax, less than half the cost of most of The Villages courses. Same El Nino, same "too much rain", same "too much cloud cover". If CCC can do it why can't The Villages?

The Pennbrooke Fairways course has great greens also. It is right next to The Villages Calusa course hole #7. Seems like they would have the same weather as us! The amount of play and inadequate maintenance are what really hurt our courses. At least now The Villages management are finally seeing that, and have said they will be taking better care of things and doing full course restorations more often (every 10 years instead of 20). But now we will suffer through multiple course closures. I guess it will be worth it though. Hopefully they will build more courses in the south more quickly too!

[Boffin]

When it comes to golf, there is no other place in the world that comes close to The Villages. This golfing community brings endless opportunities for recreational play so residents and their guests may enjoy our many courses year-round. In 2022, approximately 2.5 million rounds of golf were played on The Villages Executive Golf Courses alone. With this much bustling activity, it is necessary to have a long-term plan for the sustainability and perpetuity of the golfing experience. The District Executive Golf Maintenance team consistently aims to provide a great golfing experience on all our courses, however, there are some real-world challenges that have caused a small number of courses to be less than desirable this busy season. Of the 36 Executive Golf courses under District ownership, four are currently closed for rest and rehabilitation, one is closed for a drainage improvement project and one (Belmont) is soon to reopen following a full course renovation.

The Executive Golf Courses are a living and breathing landscape, and their anticipated life
expectancies are regularly impacted by evolving conditions. Variables such as weather and traffic may contribute to the need for enhanced revitalization needs. Executive Golf Maintenance focus remains not only on the design preservation and playability of the courses, but also the aesthetics – a value that our residents and guests enjoy about the unique Villages community. While weather patterns play a significant role in course conditions, the primary adverse factor is the age of our courses and the heavy amount of play they receive. Many Executive Courses are aging (15 to 20+ years old) and have never been renovated. With aged greens, organic matter accumulates over time and can become oversaturated soil under the green surfaces during the winter. During the summertime, prolonged sunshine and higher temperatures aid more efficient evaporation – minimizing the condition of the aged greens. Prolonged wet conditions and lack of sun, as we have seen this Winter, severely increase the likelihood of disease pressure and anaerobic conditions on the greens, resulting in turf thinning and turf loss. Of the 36 courses under District purview, ten have been fully renovated in the last decade. Renovations provide an opportunity to refresh courses with improved drainage, new soil profiles and newer turf varieties that are more shade and traffic tolerant. Executive Golf courses which have been fully renovated are in excellent condition today.

While the industry standard for a full renovation is every 20 years, two years ago, Executive Golf Maintenance started to renovate courses on a ten (10) to twelve (12) year timeframe which will include new greens, tees, fairways and bunkers while incorporating the newer turf varieties that are shade, traffic, and drought tolerant. Likewise, numerous, more frequent smaller renovation projects will include bunker sand replenishing and re-grassing tee tops. Improved bunker sand will be used during projects and drainage will be installed in wet areas on the courses. All of this will be a welcome addition to the golf experience, play performance and overall quality of the Executive Golf courses, however it will take time to fully renovate all 36 courses. Executive Golf Course upcoming planned renovations include:
· 2024: Chula Vista, Amberwood, Pimlico and Pelican
· 2025: Walnut Grove, De La Vista, Heron, Bacall and Bonita Pass.

Maintenance is needed 365 days a year on our Executive Golf courses. The Executive Golf Maintenance Department works hand-in-hand with contracted maintenance teams as they execute their daily duties of golf course preparation and general maintenance. The department schedules regular monthly course closures for maintenance to aid with general upkeep, and it is also necessary to close courses periodically for rest and rehabilitation. This gives the maintenance teams time to perform essential cultural practices such as aerification, which relieves soil compaction and provides oxygen to the grass root zone – an important step for turf recovery during and after the busy season of golf, which here in The Villages is all year long. District staff added two Supervisors this fiscal year to the Executive Golf Maintenance Team and we are developing customized agronomy plans for each course, based on turf material, conditions and soil composition. District will direct-purchase fertilizer and other agronomy products to be applied as specified in the agronomy plan, which will give Executive Golf much more control over the quantity, quality and overall application of product on courses as well as save on sales tax through third party purchases. Lastly, District has partnered with PGA Tour who have been instrumental in developing agronomy plans for Executive Golf Courses. This partnership has resulted in sharing of best-practices in regards to course maintenance and agronomy.

With more than 2.5 million annual rounds on Executive Courses, they sustain significant damage and abuse from the heavy use. High amounts of foot and golf car traffic on the Executive Courses produce compacted soils which increase drainage, disease and weed pressures. Golfers can also do their part with helping to maintain the Executive golf courses as well by, taking time to fill the divots and repair ball marks. This not only provides an even playing surface for the players behind, but also helps the grass recover and grow in more quickly. Observe cart directional signs and stakes and avoid driving too close to tees and greens. Additionally, take a few moments to rake out footprints in the bunker; this makes the area more aesthetically pleasing and playable for the remainder of the day. One of the other high priorities for Executive Courses is repairing ball marks every day. When golf balls fall from the sky, they make depression marks on the turf. In turn, these marks make the putting green uneven. Consequently, golfers find themselves misdirecting their putts. A properly repaired ball mark heals completely in 2-3 days, while an unrepaired ball mark takes 15-20 days to heal properly. Predictable slope, speed and putting surfaces is crucial to a good golfing experience. Maintenance crews inspect each green with a “ball mark repair tool” to repair all visible marks. Players sometimes cut the turf during golf strokes or by shuffling their feet. The daily damage caused by divots will depend on the number of rounds played, and we play a lot of rounds of golf annually on our Executive Golf courses. The most critical divots to fix are those located in the primary field of play.

Executive Golf Maintenance has also renewed its focus on environmental stewardship. Through pursuit an Audubon certification for all 36 Executive courses, District is finding ways to improve habitats for local wildlife, preserve native plant areas that require less fertilization, and being good stewards of scarce water resources. The Audubon Cooperative Sanctuary Program for Golf Courses (ACSP) is an award-winning education and certification program that helps golf courses protect the environment and preserve the natural heritage of the game of golf. The program helps golf officials enhance valuable natural areas and wildlife habitats that golf courses provide, improve efficiency and minimize potentially harmful impacts of golf operations. On newly renovated courses, you will see Butterfly Gardens and an increased use of rip-rap and other aesthetic enhancements.

Executive Golf Maintenance understands the golf experience is what drew many residents to the Villages and they are fully committed and working hard to ensure that they deliver the best possible golf experience possible. Executive Golf Maintenance is working tirelessly to improve course conditions, however it will take some time, sunshine and warm weather to fully recover and re-open stressed courses.

[BrianL99]

Blah blah, blah

.

Nonsense

[rsmurano]

It’s not all courses. Some courses are in very good shape whereas courses down the street are terrible. It’s not the weather, not the foot traffic, or any other poor attempt of an excuse. All these courses are booked to capacity everyday, so it’s not this.
Who maintains these courses? I heard we have multi-le contractors doing this work. I’d get rid of all the contractors who are responsible for the bad courses and expand the contracts to the contractors who have shown they can do the job.

[Steve]

The Pennbrooke Fairways course has great greens also. It is right next to The Villages Calusa course hole #7. Seems like they would have the same weather as us! The amount of play and inadequate maintenance are what really hurt our courses. At least now The Villages management are finally seeing that, and have said they will be taking better care of things and doing full course restorations more often (every 10 years instead of 20). But now we will suffer through multiple course closures. I guess it will be worth it though. Hopefully they will build more courses in the south more quickly too!

In the old days The Villages would build the golf courses, pro shops, restaurants, etc. first, THEN build the houses. I remember playing Mallory Hill when there was not one house built on it yet. Now they build the houses first and the golf courses, et al, later. That drives the new residents to the existing courses which get overbooked and experience excess wear and tear.

[ThirdOfFive]

Like most everywhere else on the planet, you’ll find folks here who just love to b!tch. No matter how anyone else sees the glass, to them it is always half empty. That apparently holds true for TOTV as well. Those folks by and large don’t want solutions. They just want to complain about the problems as they see them. It is the same everywhere.

In all the executive courses we’ve played since last fall, I’d say 85% to 90% of them were perfectly playable, especially considering the caliber of play of a lot of the folks who play them.There were some—a few—exceptions to that, but if I were a gambler and had odds 85% in my favor I’d be living in Las Vegas rather than TV.

Sure, some courses could be better. But keeping things in perspective, even the worst courses here look pretty darn good when the conditions of the courses where many of us hail from means that they are hip-deep in snow for half of every year.

All things considered, we have things pretty darn good here in TV.

[waynet]

Just tired of the reasoning that the courses where we came from are under snow. So what, I am not there I am here. I want the courses I am playing here to be in better condition . Could care less about courses up north.!

[BrianL99]

Like most everywhere else on the planet, you’ll find folks here who just love to b!tch. No matter how anyone else sees the glass, to them it is always half empty. That apparently holds true for TOTV as well. Those folks by and large don’t want solutions. They just want to complain about the problems as they see them. It is the same everywhere.

In all the executive courses we’ve played since last fall, I’d say 85% to 90% of them were perfectly playable, especially considering the caliber of play of a lot of the folks who play them.There were some—a few—exceptions to that, but if I were a gambler and had odds 85% in my favor I’d be living in Las Vegas rather than TV.

Sure, some courses could be better. But keeping things in perspective, even the worst courses here look pretty darn good when the conditions of the courses where many of us hail from means that they are hip-deep in snow for half of every year.

All things considered, we have things pretty darn good here in TV.

We are a country of declining expectations.

To paraphrase Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of mediocrity, is for good men to say nothing.”

[ThirdOfFive]

Just tired of the reasoning that the courses where we came from are under snow. So what, I am not there I am here. I want the courses I am playing here to be in better condition . Could care less about courses up north.!
Just curious here…but a general two-part question to anyone who cares to answer it. Ballpark numbers…

A) In the past three months how many courses (exec and championship) have you played; and

B) out of that number, how many were in your estimation, unplayable?

[BrianL99]

Just curious here…but a general two-part question to anyone who cares to answer it. Ballpark numbers…

A) In the past three months how many courses (exec and championship) have you played; and

B) out of that number, how many were in your estimation, unplayable?

I have no knowledge, other than what I read, about Executive Courses. As for Championship courses, Havana, Evans Prairie, Cane Garden, Palmer & Mallory, were all virtually unplayable 2 weeks ago.

Palmer and Mallory have improved in the last 2 weeks.

TDS, Glenview & Lopez were all acceptable to good. I don't know about any other courses.

There was in article this morning, in the *************, about Monday's meeting at SeaBreeze and Mitch Leininger and his boss, got raked over the coals. Expect Leininger to be looking for a new job before the end of the month ... that's surely what he deserves, based on the community's view (& admitted by him) of the conditions at the Executive course.

https://www.**************.com/2024/03/11/golf-officials-admit-ailing-courses-should-have-been-closed-sooner/

[Scbang]

It’s not all courses. Some courses are in very good shape whereas courses down the street are terrible. It’s not the weather, not the foot traffic, or any other poor attempt of an excuse. All these courses are booked to capacity everyday, so it’s not this.
Who maintains these courses? I heard we have multi-le contractors doing this work. I’d get rid of all the contractors who are responsible for the bad courses and expand the contracts to the contractors who have shown they can do the job.

AGREE 100% over and over again..