What a Terrible Disaster

[Dusty_Star]

Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore harbor collapses after being hit by a ship.

What a terrible disaster.

Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed after ship crash (https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/03/26/key-bridge-collapses-into-patapsco/)

[retiredguy123]

Lots of speculation. Some people are talking about needing more redundancy in the bridge structure. But, looking at the size and weight of the ship compared to the bridge structure, the bridge didn't have a chance.

[Bay Kid]

Such a loss.

[retiredguy123]

Your response to this is a real head shaker.
Who's response?

[Dusty_Star]

Overview of what freight the harbor handles:


Port Of Baltimore - Key Facts And Figures (https://gcaptain.com/port-of-baltimore-key-facts-and-figures/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The cargo was being transported for a company in Denmark. It was being lead out of the harbor by a local harbor pilot, which is standard operation. Local people bring the ships in and out of the harbors, to and from open water, because local people know the harbors best.

There was smoke coming out super thick and black from the smokestack, which means something wasn't right. The smoke started during the approach to the bridge, before the power went out the first time.

Seems to me it was a horrible accident caused by some kind of electrical/engine failure.

[Bill14564]

Lots of speculation. Some people are talking about needing more redundancy in the bridge structure. But, looking at the size and weight of the ship compared to the bridge structure, the bridge didn't have a chance.

I've seen those ships close up... you're right, the bridge didn't have a chance.

Most likely had a harbor pilot on board. Some reports are saying the ship reported a loss of maneuverability and warned of a collision. Those ships cannot stop quickly when they have an engine to help; without engine power they coast a long ways.

[manaboutown]

That is a critical bridge in Baltimore if I remember correctly. Back in the mid to late 1960s I drove across it many times.

[Caymus]

That is a critical bridge in Baltimore if I remember correctly. Back in the mid to late 1960s I drove across it many times.

Must have been an earlier version of the bridge. Reports indicates this one was opened in 1977.

[fdpaq0580]

Who's response?

Only OP and #2 to choose from and I see nothing "head shaker" about either one. ???

[retiredguy123]

Only OP and #2 to choose from and I see nothing "head shaker" about either one. ???
See Post No. 5. There was another post that was apparently removed by TOTV.

[manaboutown]

Must have been an earlier version of the bridge. Reports indicates this one was opened in 1977.

You are correct.

[Bjeanj]

I just saw on the news that two people in a vehicle have been saved so far, thank goodness! Also heard that someone/people stopped traffic from entering the bridge when they saw what was happening. From what I understand, it’s a toll bridge, so they are able to determine whose vehicles were on the bridge when it collapsed. So sad. Also, the cargo ship did lose power and radioed that before the collision.

[Bill14564]

I just saw on the news that two people in a vehicle have been saved so far, thank goodness! Also heard that someone/people stopped traffic from entering the bridge when they saw what was happening. From what I understand, it’s a toll bridge, so they are able to determine whose vehicles were on the bridge when it collapsed. So sad. Also, the cargo ship did lose power and radioed that before the collision.

I doubt that would be much use. I believe the tolls in both directions are collected at the same place. This means while southbound tolls are collected approaching the bridge, northbound tolls are collected as you leave the bridge.

There would be a record of southbound vehicles approaching the bridge at the time but no record of whether they were over the bridge when the collapse occurred.

There would be a record of northbound vehicles that exited the bridge at the time but no record of vehicles that might have been on the bridge.

[Arbud]

Being from the Baltimore area until moving here in Oct2023, I have been over that bridge many times. The loss of life is just terrible. I have also been under that bridge many times cruising out the cruise port there. I never liked the bridge because it was the reason larger cruise ships could not come in. Going under it if you were on the top deck, you could almost touch the bottom of the bridge. My wife and I looked forward to that and going under the Bay bridge.
My un informed opinion was and is that it was an albatross. Not much use from such an expense. What a shame it had to end this way and people had to lose their lives.

[retiredguy123]

Being from the Baltimore area until moving here in Oct2023, I have been over that bridge many times. The loss of life is just terrible. I have also been under that bridge many times cruising out the cruise port there. I never liked the bridge because it was the reason larger cruise ships could not come in. Going under it if you were on the top deck, you could almost touch the bottom of the bridge. My wife and I looked forward to that and going under the Bay bridge.
My un informed opinion was and is that it was an albatross. Not much use from such an expense. What a shame it had to end this way and people had to lose their lives.
I am also from Baltimore. Weren't there 2 bridges and 2 tunnels? If so, rerouting the traffic should be doable.

[Dusty_Star]

I am also from Baltimore. Weren't there 2 bridges and 2 tunnels? If so, rerouting the traffic should be doable.

There are currently two highway tunnels. I was wondering about the bridge, I remember crossing a bridge that seemed incredibly long in the 1970s, but probably earlier than 1977. I do not remember all of the steel work from this one. Does anyone else remember the earlier bridge? Was it long? & with a more 'open' design than this one?

[Bill14564]

I am also from Baltimore. Weren't there 2 bridges and 2 tunnels? If so, rerouting the traffic should be doable.

One bridge and two tunnels.

Road work often has lanes of one of the tunnels closed.

Hazmat material is not allowed in the tunnels, not sure about car-carrier vehicles. Over-land routes both through the city and around it are terribly congested already.

Re-routing is doable, but it's going to be painful.

[Bill14564]

There are currently two highway tunnels. I was wondering about the bridge, I remember crossing a bridge that seemed incredibly long in the 1970s, but probably earlier than 1977. I do not remember all of the steel work from this one. Does anyone else remember the earlier bridge? Was it long? & with a more 'open' design than this one?

You might be thinking of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge near Annapolis. That bridge was opened in 1952 and is about four miles long. I believe there is more steel work than the Key bridge but since the Bay bridge is so much longer it would feel like there was less.

The second span of the Bay bridge, the westbound span, opened in 1973. This span has less steel work than the original, eastbound span.

[fdpaq0580]

So the "stupids" borrowed a container ship to knock down the bridge?:ohdear:

That is what he said. I wonder who he thinks the "stupids" are?

[Stu from NYC]

The lawyers will have a field day

[MightyDog]

So if you don't like what someone says, you ridicule, silence, and maybe fabricate lies and imprison?
Sounds like the intolerance of the late 1930's to early 1940s; and more recently.
This might interest you. Decide for yourselves if it means something. Quite a coincidence.
https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/2024-03-26_14-16-56.png?itok=0uE6kh_o

[Josephjmarchese]

Prayers for those lost.
Bridges need to be protected from such accidents at all costs. A problem for engineers for sure, but absolutely necessary. How many ports including NYC have Bridges at their entrances? Not only is the seaway lost but a crucial highway that will result in detours and congestion for years. This is a national security issue needing to be addresses at all costs.

[ithos]

Can someone explain why almost the entire bridge collapsed when only one bridge pier was involved?

Is every bridge this vulnerable? Or was the design selected to save money and time?

[ithos]

Found this:

Engineers blame $3m structural 'flaw' for Baltimore's Francis Scott Key bridge collapsing - and tens of thousands of bridges across US could also have fault | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13240663/Engineers-blame-structural-fault-protected-Francis-Scott-Key-Bridge.html)

The Francis Scott Key Bridge was a continuous truss bridge, which can fail if it loses one support pillar. Multiple high-profile failures of such bridges have occurred, and thousands remain across waterways throughout the US.

A slightly larger budget would have allowed for more protection that may have significantly limited the damage.

[ThirdOfFive]

This might interest you. Decide for yourselves if it means something. Quite a coincidence.
https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/2024-03-26_14-16-56.png?itok=0uE6kh_o

(groan)

[Normal]

Can someone explain why almost the entire bridge collapsed when only one bridge pier was involved?

Is every bridge this vulnerable? Or was the design selected to save money and time?

Third longest span in the world at 1200 feet. Nothing was stopping that ship.

[ithos]

Third longest span in the world at 1200 feet. Nothing was stopping that ship.

This response is a non sequitur to my post.

[Normal]

This response is a non sequitur to my post.

Completely logical…the truss was 1200 feet long. 100,000 tons at 12 knots, name a bridge pile that would not buckle under that force. If that pile goes the bridge should and would totally collapse.

It is a large revenue loss for the state who collected 50 plus million a year for little maintenance.

[Pat2015]

Being from the Baltimore area until moving here in Oct2023, I have been over that bridge many times. The loss of life is just terrible. I have also been under that bridge many times cruising out the cruise port there. I never liked the bridge because it was the reason larger cruise ships could not come in. Going under it if you were on the top deck, you could almost touch the bottom of the bridge. My wife and I looked forward to that and going under the Bay bridge.
My un informed opinion was and is that it was an albatross. Not much use from such an expense. What a shame it had to end this way and people had to lose their lives.

I’m from B’More as well and also traversed that bridge many times going back and forth to work. A very sad day in our hometown 😢.

[ithos]

Completely logical…the truss was 1200 feet long. 100,000 tons at 12 knots, name a bridge pile that would not buckle under that force. If that pile goes the bridge should and would totally collapse.

It is a large revenue loss for the state who collected 50 plus million a year for little maintenance.

So you disagree with the engineers in the article?
A slightly larger budget would have allowed for more protection that may have significantly limited the damage.
What are your credentials?

[Justputt]

One engineer commented there should be structures in place around these main supports to be a first point of contact for out-of-control ships that don't compromise the bridge. When the newer Chesapeake Bay bridge was built, the islands of concrete they build for the major span supports were very impressive and much larger than the span steel that went into them. It was amazing to watch every time we crossed the old bridge.

[Normal]

So you disagree with the engineers in the article?
A slightly larger budget would have allowed for more protection that may have significantly limited the damage.
What are your credentials?

Sameh Badie, a professor of engineering at George Washington University, discussed the collapse of Francis Scott Key Bridge on NBC Washington on Tuesday, explaining that the structure of the bridge could not handle the load of its span after one piece had been destroyed in the collision.

Badie said that the Key Bridge is a continuous steel truss bridge. When the cargo vessel collided with one of the more central piers of the bridge, it could no longer sustain the full span of its weight, causing the collapse, Badie said.

Clearly the state is culpable. They reported collecting 52 million in tolls from the bridge last year. The state should have used their cash cow on bridge maintenance?

Matriculation isn’t important, physics is.

[ithos]

Sameh Badie, a professor of engineering at George Washington University, discussed the collapse of Francis Scott Key Bridge on NBC Washington on Tuesday, explaining that the structure of the bridge could not handle the load of its span after one piece had been destroyed in the collision.

Badie said that the Key Bridge is a continuous steel truss bridge. When the cargo vessel collided with one of the more central piers of the bridge, it could no longer sustain the full span of its weight, causing the collapse, Badie said.

Clearly the state is culpable. They reported collecting 52 million in tolls from the bridge last year. The state should have used their cash cow on bridge maintenance?

Matriculation isn’t important, physics is.

I don't see a contradiction between the professor and the article.

Truss bridges particularly vulnerable to cracks, collapse
NEW BEDFORD — It was in the 1950s and '60s that engineers began to steer clear of truss bridges of the sort that collapsed in Minneapolis last week.

But the mid-'60s was also the heyday of interstate highway construction and truss bridges still had the advantages they had since railroad pioneers made them out of wood: they are relatively cheap to build, and cheaper still when engineers became more confident in their materials and could build them "lighter and stronger."


Your browser is not supported | southcoasttoday.com (https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/2007/08/05/truss-bridges-particularly-vulnerable-to/52828749007/)

[GizmoWhiskers]

Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore harbor collapses after being hit by a ship.

What a terrible disaster.

Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed after ship crash (https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/03/26/key-bridge-collapses-into-patapsco/)
Yes, terrible. Prayers for those involved.

That bridge looked like a dinosaur. How is it that a bridge like that was subjected to this threat for YEARS. Why wasn't a technologically sufficient bridge put in years ago??

Raises the question exactly where is the $$ trillions for "infrastructure" going in this country??

Clearly not toward the re-design of critical water way commerce travel under prehistoric bridges.

[Bill14564]

So you disagree with the engineers in the article?
A slightly larger budget would have allowed for more protection that may have significantly limited the damage.
What are your credentials?

Significantly, that quote does not appear in the article you linked. However, this quote does:
Nonetheless, he explained that not all protection systems will be up to the task of stopping a more than 100,000-ton ship like the Dali, and sometimes these accidents will simply happen due to human error - or as early reports indicated in this case, power failure.

It is a fact that the protection systems that were in place for the Key Bridge were not up to the task of stopping the "more than 100,000-ton ship like the Dali." But do such protection systems even exist? How much land is required to beach a ship that size to prevent it from striking the bridge? It is possible there would be no channel left if sufficient space was set aside for a protection system to ward off a 100,000+ ton ship.

It is easy to Monday-morning quaterback, especially when you have no skin in the game. It is much more difficult when you try to design a perfect system in the real world.

[airstreamingypsy]

I thought tug boats steered ships out of harbors, even though there was a harbor master on board clearly he could do nothing. Seems like tug boats could have prevented this tragedy.

[phylt]

I know it's early, BUT not much re the SHIP'S owners responsibility and culpability. Insurance should remit for their liability in this disaster. As usual, the knee-jerk is ---- the Fed govt will pay to rebuild etc etc. Must there be lawsuits after WE pay to get relief. The USA taxpayer always seems to be the easy mark.

The owners of this ship are registered in Singapore and have hundreds of these cargo ships. Who CAUSED this disaster??? Not the bridge engineers, but the source - the SHIP.

Pay up ship owners/insurance companies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lancer]

They need to do what they did for the Sunshine Skyway after it was hit and collapsed. They placed huge concrete barriers by the supports so ships would hit them and not the support.

[Used2u]

Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore harbor collapses after being hit by a ship.

What a terrible disaster.

Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed after ship crash (https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/03/26/key-bridge-collapses-into-patapsco/)

Already conspiricy theories going around. They are saying it was done intentionally to disrupt the supply chain. Thoughts?

[MightyDog]

Really? The (fabricated) border crisis? You're bringing up the (fabricated) border crisis when one of the largest ports on the east coast incurred a devastating accident. People died. This is a major hub for the entire US and you're bringing up something that the two political parties could solve in one day but they refuse because they think it helps them politically, in an election year?

Open your eyes. Read a paper.
A near perfect example of projection.

[MightyDog]

Already conspiricy theories going around. They are saying it was done intentionally to disrupt the supply chain. Thoughts?
Your question will likely trigger some on here with less open minds but, I like exploring possibilities. There have been many unusual instances in the last few years.

Like the two trucks that just happened to collide on the I-75 bridge that connects KY to OH in Nov 2020. (Btw, I-75 is THE major transport corridor from FL to MI). One had flammable contents so a big fire occurred. Bridge was closed for 6 weeks! All traffic was re-routed onto the loop highway around Cincinnati and was a massive mess all that time.

Then, there was the very unusual instance of that barge that supposedly got stuck in the Suez Canal for 6 days in March 2021, which is another very major transport route. Both instances occurring when we were basically promised 'supply chain shortages' because of the pandemic. I find coincidences interesting.

This bridge collapse? I have no idea why that ship had serious problems and hit that bridge support. But, it's another interesting coincidence given there was a dramatic and unusual terrorist event in Russia recently. I do hope no one is naive enough to think that Vlad would just take that on the chin. So, possible payback? Don't know but, far crazier things have happened in this world.

[Cheapbas]

Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore harbor collapses after being hit by a ship.

What a terrible disaster.

Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed after ship crash (https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/03/26/key-bridge-collapses-into-patapsco/)

Curious why tugboats weren’t standard procedure at least past that point.

[ithos]

Curious why tugboats weren’t standard procedure at least past that point.

Good Point. They probably will be required after the bridge is reopen.

[Bill14564]

Curious why tugboats weren’t standard procedure at least past that point.

A ship with its own propulsion does not need a tugboat to navigate. Tugboats move barges and help ships into and out of docks.

[Tvflguy]

I know it's early, BUT not much re the SHIP'S owners responsibility and culpability. Insurance should remit for their liability in this disaster. As usual, the knee-jerk is ---- the Fed govt will pay to rebuild etc etc. Must there be lawsuits after WE pay to get relief. The USA taxpayer always seems to be the easy mark.

The owners of this ship are registered in Singapore and have hundreds of these cargo ships. Who CAUSED this disaster??? Not the bridge engineers, but the source - the SHIP.

Pay up ship owners/insurance companies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO totally agree. Why are the US taxpayers always on the hook??? Not one leader has said if the owners of the cargo ship are culpable…. Not one.

[Bill14564]

SO totally agree. Why are the US taxpayers always on the hook??? Not one leader has said if the owners of the cargo ship are culpable…. Not one.

Good leaders do not shoot their mouths off and make such statements before the experts complete their investigation.

The owners of the ship likely had no idea where the ship was at the time and certainly were not in control of the engines or the steering. Culpability should require some evidence that they were somehow involved beyond simple financing the ship. Depending on the terms of the lease agreement, they might not even be financially responsible. THAT is why a good leader would wait for the results of the investigation before laying blame.

[ithos]

A ship with its own propulsion does not need a tugboat to navigate. Tugboats move barges and help ships into and out of docks.


Once it has been rebuilt, I doubt they will go back to status quo since one damaged pier on a truss bridge can bring it all down.

The only options I can think of is either build barriers to protect the piers or use tugs.

From an article posted today.
Could Key Bridge crash have been avoided if Dali had tugboat guides? - The Baltimore Banner (https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/baltimore-bridge-dali-tugboat-rules-E4DIYO7MUVDOFHR7Y3YJOGOY3A/)

As the Singapore cargo ship Dali shoved off from the Port of Baltimore’s Seagirt Marine Terminal, two tugboats initially helped maneuver it away, then peeled off 20 minutes before the ship crashed into the Francis Scott Key Bridge.

Another half hour paying for tugs would have been much less expensive than crashing the ship into a bridge pier.

“Ship owners don’t like tug escorts because you need to pay for them,” said Ahlstrom, who also teaches safety management classes at SUNY Maritime. “But passing under a bridge like this, it may be necessary.”

A tanker third mate for Crowley’s tank fleet who has sailed through the Baltimore Port repeatedly over the last 18 years said that two, or even one tugboat, may have been able to help a cargo ship of that size, depending on the horsepower of the boats.

[Cliff Fr]

It will be rebuilt in the same way that the Sunshine skyway bridge was built after it was hit by a ship here in Florida.

[Normal]

I wonder if the pilots,from the port were too hesitant to deploy the anchors?

Regardless, the bridge brings in hefty revenue with its toll charges, so it should be rebuilt soon enough. Maryland makes good money off the bridge, if only they spent that money on maintenance,

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm posting out of the same ignorance as everyone else, offering another "maybe this is what's happening" perception:

Maybe...
the Fed will make immediate funds available for immediate reconstruction of the bridge.

AND the Fed will be doing the investigation to see who is actually legally responsible for refunding the Fed that money.

BECAUSE investigating it first, then going after insurance companies, and courts, and appeals, and so on and so forth means delays in getting it rebuilt.

BUT they want it rebuilt ASAP, and want to cut through all that red tape. They expect to be recompensated, but the funding has to be made immediately available, FIRST.

That's my thoughts on the whys and wherefores.

[Two Bills]

Already conspiricy theories going around. They are saying it was done intentionally to disrupt the supply chain. Thoughts?

BS.

[Tblue]

I have no knowledge of issues like the bridge collapse, however a question for those that have some experience in something like this. I assume the ship is now secured in place. It seems, again with no real knowledge of things like this, but it would seem teams could come in and fish out the broken bridge and open up the ship channel allowing ship traffic to resume rather quickly, maybe even in a few weeks? Rebuilding is another issue, but then again red tape may be an issue, any thoughts?

[Dusty_Star]

I have no knowledge of issues like the bridge collapse, however a question for those that have some experience in something like this. I assume the ship is now secured in place. It seems, again with no real knowledge of things like this, but it would seem teams could come in and fish out the broken bridge and open up the ship channel allowing ship traffic to resume rather quickly, maybe even in a few weeks? Rebuilding is another issue, but then again red tape may be an issue, any thoughts?

Somewhat agree. They may be able to open the shipping lanes, it they are able to move rapidly. However, if the ships need trucks to either move the cargo on elsewhere, or to load up the ships, then losing a major interstate highway might add a substantial load to the existing highways.

[barnaclebill]

A ship with its own propulsion does not need a tugboat to navigate. Tugboats move barges and help ships into and out of docks.

Sorry but a good point was made here.

Having a tug could likely have prevented this problem or at least have limited the damage. It might not stop a container ship but could likely have deflected it enough.

Make the container companies pay for the cost for escort beyond infrastructure or have them ready around infrastructure.

We can not assess the viabilty of every ship coming into this country as most are registered to countries with no responsibility.

[ithos]

It will be rebuilt in the same way that the Sunshine skyway bridge was built after it was hit by a ship here in Florida.
Good point.
How the Skyway Bridge was rebuilt after the deadly 1980 collapse | wtsp.com (https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/pinellascounty/bridge-collapse-baltimore-skyway-tampa-rebuild/67-6f876ecf-4a1e-49f9-a3f8-df5ab340488f)
Luther says dozens of concrete barriers called dolphins, which protect the bridge from collision, are just the beginning of an ongoing effort that carries on the goal of those who rebuilt the bridge four decades ago.

I suspect that the total economic cost of this bridge collapse is many magnitudes higher than than that of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge. There no doubt will be major changes in construction and policies.
barrons.com (https://www.barrons.com/articles/baltimore-key-bridge-collapse-us-economy-3f39bccc#:~:text=If%20the%20Port%20of%20Baltimore, impact%20analysis%20performed%20by%20IMPLAN).
If the Port of Baltimore is closed for 30 days, Maryland would be at risk for losing $550 million to its gross domestic product and $1 billion loss in total value of goods and services, according to an economic impact analysis performed by IMPLAN.

The port will reopen much sooner than when the bridge has been placed back in service.
The economic costs of the Key Bridge collapse - Oxford Economics (https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/resource/the-economic-costs-of-the-key-bridge-collapse/)
Trucking costs will likely rise as nearly 4,000 commercial trucks used the bridge, on average, per day according to the
American Trucking Association. Detours will increase delivery times and fuel costs. There are large businesses with distribution facilities near the bridge, and among them are Amazon, FedEx, Under Armour and a few automakers.

[Normal]

If the bridge is rebuilt it could cost up to 350 million dollars.

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/03/27/francis-scott-key-bridge-rebuild/73110543007/#)

First you will have those that will want to redesign the whole thing etc. Everyone will have a better idea. Then the politicians will take their pokes at it which can be a very scary thing financially. Finally, engineers and contractors will get together for the boots on the ground rebuild. Does anyone really see this getting done in less than 4 years time? The new, improved, more costly bridge is gonna take a while.

[ithos]

If the bridge is rebuilt it could cost up to 350 million dollars.

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/03/27/francis-scott-key-bridge-rebuild/73110543007/#)

First you will have those that will want to redesign the whole thing etc. Everyone will have a better idea. Then the politicians will take their pokes at it which can be a very scary thing financially. Finally, engineers and contractors will get together for the boots on the ground rebuild. Does anyone really see this getting done in less than 4 years time? The new, improved, more costly bridge is gonna take a while.

What type of redesign do you think? Can they change it to something other than a truss bridge? They'll probably go the quickest route.

[Normal]

What type of redesign do you think? Can they change it to something other than a truss bridge? They'll probably go the quickest route.

Cantilever? Or new pile design which should have been done before the accident? The ships of today need to be taken into account. We don’t want repetition of the accident.

[ThirdOfFive]

If the bridge is rebuilt it could cost up to 350 million dollars.

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/03/27/francis-scott-key-bridge-rebuild/73110543007/#)

First you will have those that will want to redesign the whole thing etc. Everyone will have a better idea. Then the politicians will take their pokes at it which can be a very scary thing financially. Finally, engineers and contractors will get together for the boots on the ground rebuild. Does anyone really see this getting done in less than 4 years time? The new, improved, more costly bridge is gonna take a while.
I agree that the most time-consuming part may be the politics. But it doesn't have to be. I recall the I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis. There was a lot of pressure applied by the companies and people whose livelihoods depended on that bridge: there were other routes but like is most likely the case in Baltimore those "other routes" were lengthier and far more time-consuming. To their credit the powers-that-be in Minnesota shelved the politics in large part, got the design approved and contractors contracted, and the new bridge was completed in 14 1/2 months: date of collapse August 1, 2007, date of completion September 18, 2007--three months ahead of schedule and at $234 million, under budget.

Granted, not quite the same scenario or bridge, but it DOES show what can be accomplished if politics and profiteering are, as much as possible anyway, avoided.

[Caymus]

Cantilever? Or new pile design which should have been done before the accident? The ships of today need to be taken into account. We don’t want repetition of the accident.

The bridge was in service since 1977. Do you know if there were any previous hits or near misses?

[Normal]

The bridge was in service since 1977. Do you know if there were any previous hits or near misses?

Container ships of course have gone up roughly 600% in volume since the 70s. 2-3000 TCUs to some now at 18,000 TCUs. Perhaps the most negligent would be the state who never addressed the increased threat? Plenty of toll cash came in for tolls, but there was always tomorrow.

[Tvflguy]

Good leaders do not shoot their mouths off and make such statements before the experts complete their investigation.

The owners of the ship likely had no idea where the ship was at the time and certainly were not in control of the engines or the steering. Culpability should require some evidence that they were somehow involved beyond simple financing the ship. Depending on the terms of the lease agreement, they might not even be financially responsible. THAT is why a good leader would wait for the results of the investigation before laying blame.

“Laying blame”???? So our bridge caused the issue…. It was their ship and their accountability. At the very least, mention that the ships owners will be accountable. As well as Our Taxpayers….

[Bill14564]

“Laying blame”???? So our bridge caused the issue…. It was their ship and their accountability. At the very least, mention that the ships owners will be accountable. As well as Our Taxpayers….

Exactly the problem I mentioned. Why are the ship's owners responsible? What did the ship's owners do that contributed to the collision? The answer is we don't know at this point.

I see it as similar to renting a car from Hertz. If I am driving that car and have a collision, what responsibility do the owner's of Hertz have for the damages that were caused?

- If the law requires Hertz to carry insurance that covers their vehicle even when being operated by another then fine, they have some financial responsibility.

- If Hertz is responsible for maintenance of the vehicle but failed in that responsibility and if that failure contributed to the collision then they may have some financial responsibility.

- If the contract between Hertz and me clearly states that they are providing the vehicle but I am responsible for its proper operation then they would have no financial responsibility.

So what was the agreement between the ship's owner and Maersk? Who was responsible for maintenance of the ship? What was the cause of the loss of power and propulsion in the ship? The answer to those questions will determine who is responsible. We won't know the answers until the investigations are complete. Laying blame at this point is premature and jumping to conclusions. It is wrong to criticize leaders for being thorough and not jumping to conclusions.

[Normal]

Exactly the problem I mentioned. Why are the ship's owners responsible? What did the ship's owners do that contributed to the collision? The answer is we don't know at this point.

I see it as similar to renting a car from Hertz. If I am driving that car and have a collision, what responsibility do the owner's of Hertz have for the damages that were caused?

- If the law requires Hertz to carry insurance that covers their vehicle even when being operated by another then fine, they have some financial responsibility.

- If Hertz is responsible for maintenance of the vehicle but failed in that responsibility and if that failure contributed to the collision then they may have some financial responsibility.

- If the contract between Hertz and me clearly states that they are providing the vehicle but I am responsible for its proper operation then they would have no financial responsibility.

So what was the agreement between the ship's owner and Maersk? Who was responsible for maintenance of the ship? What was the cause of the loss of power and propulsion in the ship? The answer to those questions will determine who is responsible. We won't know the answers until the investigations are complete. Laying blame at this point is premature and jumping to conclusions. It is wrong to criticize leaders for being thorough and not jumping to conclusions.


Is it the ships owner, or the maker of the engines in the ship? Is it the city of Baltimore and their pilots who didn’t drop anchor? Is it the state of Maryland who owned the bridge and collected excessive tolls and didn’t use the toll revenue to improve the bridge overtime for today’s maritime vehicles? Could it be the original steel mill’s metal? Are engineers at fault? What about the last inspection company? What about back up systems and generators?

The list is endless. My impression is the state could have done a better job updating their own bridge.

[ithos]

You've got to be kidding me!

The giant vessel is made from thick, high-strength steel and is powered by one engine and one propeller. It's owned by the Singapore-based Grace Ocean and chartered by Denmark's Maersk.
A ship of that size? So much for single failure criteria.
Moment investigators board stranded Dali ship for the first time to get its black box and admit hazardous materials are seeping out after it hit Baltimore's Key Bridge: Comes as four of the six workers who died are named | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13247883/alejandro-fuentes-dorian-cabrera-miguel-luna-maynor-suazo-key-bridge-collapse.html)

[Stu from NYC]

Is it the ships owner, or the maker of the engines in the ship? Is it the city of Baltimore and their pilots who didn’t drop anchor? Is it the state of Maryland who owned the bridge and collected excessive tolls and didn’t use the toll revenue to improve the bridge overtime for today’s maritime vehicles? Could it be the original steel mill’s metal? Are engineers at fault? What about the last inspection company? What about back up systems and generators?

The list is endless. My impression is the state could have done a better job updating their own bridge.

The ships owner would be responsible for maintenance that might be a contributing factor. Time will tell.

[fdpaq0580]

[QUOTE=ithos;2316198

The only options I can think of is either build barriers to protect the piers or use tugs.



Another half hour paying for tugs would have been much less expensive than crashing the ship into a bridge pier.[/QUOTE]

Build higher and stronger.

If only they had checked the magic 8 ball.
Seriously, tugs are a good help, normally. But even tugs can have breakdowns. Accidents happen. Nothing is 100%.

[fdpaq0580]

The insurance companies will figure it out. This not uncharted waters for them. Even if all maintenance was upto date, no problems found during inspections, all systems operating when tugs departed, things can just break.
Dropping anchor might not have been a viable option since cables, pipes, and more pass under water through many harbors. Destruction may have been even worse, more destructive, disruptive and deadly

[Dusty_Star]

You might be thinking of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge near Annapolis. That bridge was opened in 1952 and is about four miles long. I believe there is more steel work than the Key bridge but since the Bay bridge is so much longer it would feel like there was less.

The second span of the Bay bridge, the westbound span, opened in 1973. This span has less steel work than the original, eastbound span.

Thanks!!! I am sure you are right.

[CarlR33]

The insurance companies will figure it out. This not uncharted waters for them. Even if all maintenance was upto date, no problems found during inspections, all systems operating when tugs departed, things can just break.
Dropping anchor might not have been a viable option since cables, pipes, and more pass under water through many harbors. Destruction may have been even worse, more destructive, disruptive and deadly I thought I heard they did drop anchor to slow it down….maybe not?

[fdpaq0580]

I thought I heard they did drop anchor to slow it down….maybe not?

I honestly haven't kept up with the investigations. Maybe they did. But, all harbors aren't just mud on the bottom. Depending what is on the bottom they could have torn up anything. Electronics, communications, gas, oil, ?, ?. We won't really know anything until the investigations are done and reviewed. At this point it is all conjecture. But there will be a lot of arguments, finger pointing and butt protecting.
The one bright star that I can see is, I was not the Captain. I would have chosen to go down without my ship.

[keepsake]

Just assign and attach a tug boat to each vessel til they clear the obstacles.

[ithos]

Build higher and stronger.

If only they had checked the magic 8 ball.
Seriously, tugs are a good help, normally. But even tugs can have breakdowns. Accidents happen. Nothing is 100%.

Fortunately there are governing agencies who don't take such a lackadaisical view as yours. When there are single engine super freighters passing under inherently fragile truss bridges, then over time the odds are not on their side. Far superior bridges have pier protection because of the foresight of their governing authorities.

If any agency was using an 8 ball, it was the one who had oversight of the FSK bridge.

Here's what surprised a Drexel University professor about the Baltimore bridge collapse
https://6abc.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-safety-construction-drexel-university/14574047/

[kkingston57]

One engineer commented there should be structures in place around these main supports to be a first point of contact for out-of-control ships that don't compromise the bridge. When the newer Chesapeake Bay bridge was built, the islands of concrete they build for the major span supports were very impressive and much larger than the span steel that went into them. It was amazing to watch every time we crossed the old bridge.

Bridge was built between 72 and 77. Bet new design will have structures you discussed,

[kkingston57]

Yes, terrible. Prayers for those involved.

That bridge looked like a dinosaur. How is it that a bridge like that was subjected to this threat for YEARS. Why wasn't a technologically sufficient bridge put in years ago??

Raises the question exactly where is the $$ trillions for "infrastructure" going in this country??

Clearly not toward the re-design of critical water way commerce travel under prehistoric bridges.

Agree infrastructure needs to be addressed and until recently Congress would not appropriate the monies needed. This was a terrible accidnentClearly the ship hit the bridge and was out of control when it struck the 47 year old bridge. There are hundreds if not thousands of other bridges that should need work before this bridge. Can you imagine the up roar that would have happened if the CIty of Baltimore had been given any money for the modernization of this bridge when there are a lot more that needed to be repaired/replaced

[kkingston57]

I thought tug boats steered ships out of harbors, even though there was a harbor master on board clearly he could do nothing. Seems like tug boats could have prevented this tragedy.

Agree 100%. Shipping companies would not like this and claim that this was the 1st accident after bridge was completed in 1977

[kkingston57]

I know it's early, BUT not much re the SHIP'S owners responsibility and culpability. Insurance should remit for their liability in this disaster. As usual, the knee-jerk is ---- the Fed govt will pay to rebuild etc etc. Must there be lawsuits after WE pay to get relief. The USA taxpayer always seems to be the easy mark.

The owners of this ship are registered in Singapore and have hundreds of these cargo ships. Who CAUSED this disaster??? Not the bridge engineers, but the source - the SHIP.

Pay up ship owners/insurance companies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone needs to get things rolling 1st. Bridge is part of the intrastate highway system and trust that there are laws/agreements as to who pays to repair it. Regarding insurance, maritime laws will probably apply and they are not like the laws which apply to something like a car accident in the US.

[Stu from NYC]

Someone needs to get things rolling 1st. Bridge is part of the intrastate highway system and trust that there are laws/agreements as to who pays to repair it. Regarding insurance, maritime laws will probably apply and they are not like the laws which apply to something like a car accident in the US.

If tolls are collected to cross the bridge why is the municipality that owns it passing the buck to the fed govt? Let them pay to fix it and than fight it out in court.

[Normal]

If tolls are collected to cross the bridge why is the municipality that owns it passing the buck to the fed govt? Let them pay to fix it and than fight it out in court.

Tolls charged on the Key Bridge totaled $56.8 million in revenue for Maryland in 2023, according to a 2023 report from the MDTA. That sum is 8% of all toll revenue for MDTA. Maryland is now asking for 60 million from the federal government to pay for their budget shortfall in 2024. The bridge was a money printing press for state lawmakers. Tolls have long since paid for the bridge and repair work.

[Stu from NYC]

Tolls charged on the Key Bridge totaled $56.8 million in revenue for Maryland in 2023, according to a 2023 report from the MDTA. That sum is 8% of all toll revenue for MDTA. Maryland is now asking for 60 million from the federal government to pay for their budget shortfall in 2024. The bridge was a money printing press for state lawmakers. Tolls have long since paid for the bridge and repair work.

Sad that the tolls that have long since paid for the bridge do not go for maintenance and repairs.

[kkingston57]

Build higher and stronger.

If only they had checked the magic 8 ball.
Seriously, tugs are a good help, normally. But even tugs can have breakdowns. Accidents happen. Nothing is 100%.

1/2 hour extra probably correct. On other side, bridge has been there for 47 years and no other bad accidents How many ships went thru without an incident?

[kkingston57]

If the bridge is rebuilt it could cost up to 350 million dollars.

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/03/27/francis-scott-key-bridge-rebuild/73110543007/#)

First you will have those that will want to redesign the whole thing etc. Everyone will have a better idea. Then the politicians will take their pokes at it which can be a very scary thing financially. Finally, engineers and contractors will get together for the boots on the ground rebuild. Does anyone really see this getting done in less than 4 years time? The new, improved, more costly bridge is gonna take a while.

Currently the mega cruise ships can not use that port. Bet they will get their 2 cents in and see if a higher bridge is plausible