Water monitor catches billing error

[Toymeister]

My Flume water monitor catches a 12,500 gallon irrigation excessive bill.

Monitor helps pay for itself. No this is not a difference in billing cycles. No the monitor is not malfuctioning. The system is off and there are no leaks as the monitor reads the water meter for activity.

Available on Amazon for 249.00. It also sends alerts when there are leaks.

[Bill14564]

I will be very interested to hear how you resolve this. I expect you will encounter a great deal of pushback from the District who will argue their meters do not make mistakes and will take exception to being presented with conflicting data.

[Altavia]

Does your meter pit ever fill with water?

[spinner1001]

Does your meter pit ever fill with water?

Mine do. One Flume still works and the other doesn’t. (Not the battery.)

[Altavia]

Mine do. One Flume still works and the other doesn’t. (Not the battery.)

Mine was intermittent when under water.

Ended up mounting the hub outside under the eves, line of sight to the pit

[LeRoySmith]

I've had some direct experience with water meters from the providers side of the equation. One of my first real jobs was being the grunt at a small municipality water department. My primary duty was replacing meters that had stopped working and investigating high water consumption complaints. My learning from that job was meters don't typically make errors in the utilities favor. If a meter malfunctions its because the innards get gummed up or worn and actually under report the amount of water that has passed thorough them. I replaced or repaired many meters that had been in place for decades and the bill always went up, because the new meter was more accurate than the old worn one. I'd say 90% of my investigation results were faulty toilets, either a leaky flapper of a malfunctioning flush valve. The other 10% were kids leaving the hose running, a broken pipe after the meter or a sink dripping. I suspect there were several cases where the homeowner left the water running somewhere but they rarely admitted it.

Meter readers do occasionally make errors, reading meters was another of my duties at the water dept., but those errors work themselves out on the next billing cycle. I think the majority of large water works use remote readers these days so the reading errors should drop significantly.

[Topspinmo]

I will be very interested to hear how you resolve this. I expect you will encounter a great deal of pushback from the District who will argue their meters do not make mistakes and will take exception to being presented with conflicting data.

Agree, guilty till prove to them your innocence.. :highfive:

[fdpaq0580]

Agree, guilty till prove to them your innocence.. :highfive:

True. They hold all the cards. When we traveled was when the (very large) over charges occurred. Funny thing was what ever the problem might have been, it alwaysfixed itself (potable or irrigation) by the time we returned and never left any clue that we or plumbers could find as to what the problem could have been. When, after complaining, heck was sent out to check the meter, he found meter over reporting at used and changed the meter. New meter still over reporting our usage, but "within tolerance" (<10% if I remember correctly) as far as they are concerned. Imagine raking off the top of a money deposit or withdrawal any percentage. Accuracy counts ---- except with water billing, I guess. Monopoly has us by the (naughty words deleted) and we pay whatever we must, like it or not. 🤬

[Jakester]

I've had some direct experience with water meters from the providers side of the equation. One of my first real jobs was being the grunt at a small municipality water department. My primary duty was replacing meters that had stopped working and investigating high water consumption complaints. My learning from that job was meters don't typically make errors in the utilities favor. If a meter malfunctions its because the innards get gummed up or worn and actually under report the amount of water that has passed thorough them. I replaced or repaired many meters that had been in place for decades and the bill always went up, because the new meter was more accurate than the old worn one. I'd say 90% of my investigation results were faulty toilets, either a leaky flapper of a malfunctioning flush valve. The other 10% were kids leaving the hose running, a broken pipe after the meter or a sink dripping. I suspect there were several cases where the homeowner left the water running somewhere but they rarely admitted it.

Meter readers do occasionally make errors, reading meters was another of my duties at the water dept., but those errors work themselves out on the next billing cycle. I think the majority of large water works use remote readers these days so the reading errors should drop significantly.

My experience echos yours. You forgot the other culprit resulting in high water bills is a faulty water sofner on the domestic side (customer's responsibility).

They often can get "stuck" in the regeneration cycle.

In over 3 decades of water meter testing, I've never heard of a meter running "fast".

They will test in favor of the customer as like with people (generally speaking), with age they move slower and eventually croak.

[Jakester]

If the meter has a new register or "clock" installed to replace a unit that died, if the incorrect size was accidentally used (they typically look identical) then an error against the customer can easily occur.

Most residential meters are 5/8 or 1".

One might ask if any parts were recently replaced on their meter.

Newer style meters are an all inclusive unit with nothing to replace except the entire meter.

[Bill14564]

Too many people report the same 12,500 or 25,000 gallon increase for there to be nothing to this. At the same time, it is only 6 - 12 reports per year. I don't believe the meters are infallible; I don't believe any electronics are infallible. My computer needs to be rebooted about once a month, my car electronics have glitched once or twice in three years, I don't believe the water meters are 100% bulletproof.

In this thread you have someone who used a second set of electronics to read what the mechanical part of the meter was sending. I'm sure this was not the first month the second reading was made which implies the readings have matched well in previous months.

Now there is a 12,500 gallon difference. What happened? Did the second set of electronics fail to detect that much additional usage? Possible, but if the same people in the same house went about the same activities as they had in previous months and the second meter shows the same reading then I would hesitate to question it.

On the other hand, there is a history of complaints of unexplained high readings from meters of the same type as the primary meter. There are only a small number of complaints each year over the 80,000 or so meters in use in the area. Most of the complaints have been dismissed with statements that the meters work, the meters don't fail, there is no idea where the thousands of gallons of water went, but since there is no evidence that the meter is faulty the homeowner must pay (yes, there is a waiver available now).

In this case there is evidence that the meter is giving an incorrect reading. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[LeRoySmith]

Too many people report the same 12,500 or 25,000 gallon increase for there to be nothing to this. At the same time, it is only 6 - 12 reports per year. I don't believe the meters are infallible; I don't believe any electronics are infallible. My computer needs to be rebooted about once a month, my car electronics have glitched once or twice in three years, I don't believe the water meters are 100% bulletproof.

In this thread you have someone who used a second set of electronics to read what the mechanical part of the meter was sending. I'm sure this was not the first month the second reading was made which implies the readings have matched well in previous months.

Now there is a 12,500 gallon difference. What happened? Did the second set of electronics fail to detect that much additional usage? Possible, but if the same people in the same house went about the same activities as they had in previous months and the second meter shows the same reading then I would hesitate to question it.

On the other hand, there is a history of complaints of unexplained high readings from meters of the same type as the primary meter. There are only a small number of complaints each year over the 80,000 or so meters in use in the area. Most of the complaints have been dismissed with statements that the meters work, the meters don't fail, there is no idea where the thousands of gallons of water went, but since there is no evidence that the meter is faulty the homeowner must pay (yes, there is a waiver available now).

In this case there is evidence that the meter is giving an incorrect reading. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

If someone were convinced that they were being cheated they could hire a plumber to purchase and install another water meter directly behind the utilities meter. The second meter could be used to verify or dispel the utilities meter reading. If it was a quality water meter and it disputed the utilities meter I'm confident it would get some attention. This would be an expensive option but it would certainly provide some solid data.

[Bill14564]

If someone were convinced that they were being cheated they could hire a plumber to purchase and install another water meter directly behind the utilities meter. The second meter could be used to verify or dispel the utilities meter reading. If it was a quality water meter and it disputed the utilities meter I'm confident it would get some attention. This would be an expensive option but it would certainly provide some solid data.

Essentially, that is what was done. A second reader for the same mechanical system was used and it disputed the utility's meter.

The problem with installing a second meter today is the nature of the possible glitch in the utility's meter. If this was an issue that occurred frequently then the manufacturer would have identified it and corrected it. (and possibly they have but we will never find out because acknowledging that would lead to accepting that 80,000 meters needed to be replaced and that surely isn't going to happen) If this is a glitch then it is happening in maybe 12 of 80,000 meters over the course of a year. The odds of it happening at all are low, the odds of it happening a second time are nearly zero.

The utility will dispute the accuracy of the second reading today, just as they would dispute the accuracy of an entire second meter if it was placed tomorrow.

The District's response to this will be:
- The water went through the meter
- It isn't up to them to prove the water went through the meter
- We can show you that the meter correctly counts the amount of water going through it*
- You can pay to have the water shut off at the meter before you leave on a trip**
- You can petition for a one-time forgiveness of an abnormally high reading***

* The problem isn't that the meter incorrectly measures water going through it, the problem is the meter counts 12,500 or 25,000 gallons of water when water is NOT going through it. The test they run is the only test they have available but it is the wrong test.

** Since the problem seems to be a glitch that happens very rarely (12/80,000 maybe), turning the water off at the meter after you have been affected is like shutting the barn door after the horses have escaped. It will prevent a second glitch from happening but there was little chance it would happen the first time and almost zero chance of it happening the second.

*** This is probably the best solution to this problem. The meters are not 100% error free, nothing is. Accepting that on very rare occasions this glitch might happen and allowing forgiveness of that very rare occurrence is reasonable. It's just a shame it took so long to get to this point.

[Altavia]

The Flume while a great tool for monitoring water usage is not fool proof or intended as a calibrated measurement device.

I've had instances when it failed to record when the sensor stopped transmitting because the meter pit filled with water.

https://fccid.io/2AOX8-F1100/User-Manual/User-Manual-3757797.pdf

[LeRoySmith]

The odds of it happening at all are low, the odds of it happening a second time are nearly zero.

- You can pay to have the water shut off at the meter before you leave on a trip**



When you say it happens only a few times I wonder if it happens to the same small group of meters each year or a completely different group. If its an electronic glitch it seems like it would be more prone to infect the same meter multiple times rather than once and never again. I'd liken it to something in your car or dishwasher, if there's a gremlin in the wires it rarely happens once and often become a routine failure.

We shut our water off in the garage when we leave, that takes care of the vast majority of the possible leak sites but it does leave the pipe between the meter and the house shutoff in question. You could go a step further and shut it off in the meter pit, its not as easy but not difficult to pop the lid off and give the valve a half turn with an adjustable wrench. No need to call the utility to do this is you're the slightest bit handy (or I'd be happy to stop by and shut it off for you).

[Bill14564]

The Flume while a great tool for monitoring water usage is not fool proof or intended as a calibrated measurement device.

I've had instances when it failed to record when the sensor stopped transmitting because the meter pit filled with water.

https://fccid.io/2AOX8-F1100/User-Manual/User-Manual-3757797.pdf

Does it stop recording and therefore indicates a lower overall usage or does it delay sending and shows erroneous hourly usage but an accurate overall usage?

In the case of the OP the difference is 12,500 gallons. For me, that is two month's worth of usage. For the OP, I assume he was billed for the equivalent of three month's of water while the Flume showed the normal amount for a single month.

Since the Flume can show hourly amounts, that can be used to look at the issue as well. Did the Flume show larger than normal amounts for several hours which could lead to the pit filling with water?

I just remembered this: The documentation for the water meter at my home claims it saves hourly data that can be retrieved. The OP may want to contact the District and demand those hourly readings. If the utility meter is correct then the hourly readings will support the increased usage. If the meter glitched then there will be one or two hours that indicate a volume of water that is impossible given the size of the utility's lines and water pressure.

[LeRoySmith]

You forgot the other culprit resulting in high water bills is a faulty water sofner on the domestic side (customer's responsibility).


The small town I worked in softened all the water at the water plant so there were few if any customer owned water softeners. I can see where a backwashing softener could get stuck in the backwash cycle or the softener head could develop a leak and drain off the leaking water to the drain.

[Altavia]

Does it stop recording and therefore indicates a lower overall usage or does it delay sending and shows erroneous hourly usage but an accurate overall usage?

In the case of the OP the difference is 12,500 gallons. For me, that is two month's worth of usage. For the OP, I assume he was billed for the equivalent of three month's of water while the Flume showed the normal amount for a single month.

Since the Flume can show hourly amounts, that can be used to look at the issue as well. Did the Flume show larger than normal amounts for several hours which could lead to the pit filling with water?

I just remembered this: The documentation for the water meter at my home claims it saves hourly data that can be retrieved. The OP may want to contact the District and demand those hourly readings. If the utility meter is correct then the hourly readings will support the increased usage. If the meter glitched then there will be one or two hours that indicate a volume of water that is impossible given the size of the utility's lines and water pressure.

Flume buffers data and retransmits once reconnected but I don't know how many days before the buffer fills.

[Bill14564]

When you say it happens only a few times I wonder if it happens to the same small group of meters each year or a completely different group. If its an electronic glitch it seems like it would be more prone to infect the same meter multiple times rather than once and never again. I'd liken it to something in your car or dishwasher, if there's a gremlin in the wires it rarely happens once and often become a routine failure.

We shut our water off in the garage when we leave, that takes care of the vast majority of the possible leak sites but it does leave the pipe between the meter and the house shutoff in question. You could go a step further and shut it off in the meter pit, its not as easy but not difficult to pop the lid off and give the valve a half turn with an adjustable wrench. No need to call the utility to do this is you're the slightest bit handy (or I'd be happy to stop by and shut it off for you).

First, thank you for the offer, I appreciate it.

This won't solve the problem, here's why.
Some have reported that they have turned the water off inside their homes so there is no way they could have used it. The District points to their meter, insists it does not fail, and says the water went through the meter. Their position is maybe the water was not completely turned off, maybe the homeowner made a mistake, maybe this, that, or the other but the meter indicates the water went through it.

If you or I turned off the water before the meter and it glitched then we would hear these things:
1. The homeowner is not authorized to tamper with the meter or anything before the meter
2. The District does not even know that the homeowner actually turned off the valve, they could have operated it incorrectly or they could have made a mistake when they thought they had turned it off
3. In any case, the meter indicates that water went through the meter, the meter does not fail, and the homeowner has to pay.

I agree that it must be exceedingly rare that a glitch like this could occur. On the other hand, I cannot disregard the multiple separate reports from people experiencing a single occurrence of a 12,500gal or 25,000gal excessive reading when they were away from the house, when they had the water turned off, and in the case of irrigation, without anyone noticing two or three month's of water running down the road. Again, the one-time forgiveness seems like the perfect compromise for this situation.

[LeRoySmith]

First, thank you for the offer, I appreciate it.

a single occurrence of a 12,500gal or 25,000gal



You're most welcome.

When you say 12500 or 25000, are those exact number or are you rounding. If exact number that seems very suspect.

[Bill14564]

You're most welcome.

When you say 12500 or 25000, are those exact number or are you rounding. If exact number that seems very suspect.

Those are the numbers that I have heard stated by those who came to the board meetings. I haven't seen the bills myself so I don't know how accurate the statements were.

And yes, the same numbers coming up sounds suspicious in several ways including that they are close to 4096+8192 and 8192+16,384.

[PoolBrews]

My Flume water monitor catches a 12,500 gallon irrigation excessive bill.

Monitor helps pay for itself. No this is not a difference in billing cycles. No the monitor is not malfuctioning. The system is off and there are no leaks as the monitor reads the water meter for activity.

Available on Amazon for 249.00. It also sends alerts when there are leaks.

Is this easy to install? Where do you install it?

[sallyg]

We have always been suspicious of over-charges. When we'd leave for a month or six weeks our "usage" would not change a drop. We always turned our water off. Imagine just a few dollars a month x 70,000 homes x 12 months. It is a bunch of money.

[Justputt]

Turn the water off at the house or after the meter, take a photo that has a timestamp. If you have a high meter reading when you can prove it was off, appeal it and if necessary, look into filing a Florida consumer fraud report.

[Altavia]

Is this easy to install? Where do you install it?

Flume Water | Smart Home Water Monitor | Water Leak Detector (https://flumewater.com/)

[Bealman]

My Flume water monitor catches a 12,500 gallon irrigation excessive bill.

Monitor helps pay for itself. No this is not a difference in billing cycles. No the monitor is not malfuctioning. The system is off and there are no leaks as the monitor reads the water meter for activity.

Available on Amazon for 249.00. It also sends alerts when there are leaks.

I had an issue with a read of 12,240ish over a month on the irrigation side. The district provides one data download a year and if you dispute and want a refund, if you win, then you get your money back. Only problem is, when you read the small print about getting a refund, you are only allowed to do this one time only per account. So, dispute and get paid out is only good once in an account lifecycle. If I wanted to dispute this one time only, I would have to go to the meeting of the board and get the ruling overturned that the board voted in. A lot of B$ in my opinion. Just makes you make sure you have a big amount to refute before throwing all your cards out over a little amount. PITA is all I can say!

[lawgolfer]

My Flume water monitor catches a 12,500 gallon irrigation excessive bill.

Monitor helps pay for itself. No this is not a difference in billing cycles. No the monitor is not malfuctioning. The system is off and there are no leaks as the monitor reads the water meter for activity.

Available on Amazon for 249.00. It also sends alerts when there are leaks.

My experience with the District regarding an unusually high meter reading is different. One month, our bill was nearly three times the usual amount. I pulled the cover on the meter in the front yard and found that the numbers on the meter were much lower than the numbers on the bill. I called the District to complain and was told that their computer had already "flagged" my account to determine why there was such a difference in the water usage from month to month. I don't see that there is anything wrong with having a Flume, but it seems to me to be an unnecessary expense that can be avoided by reading your monthly bill to see if there is an unusual difference in usage from previous months.

[Altavia]

I don't see that there is anything wrong with having a Flume, but it seems to me to be an unnecessary expense that can be avoided by reading your monthly bill to see if there is an unusual difference in usage from previous months.


One example: You can easily burn through more than $250 irrigation water before noticing a broken spray head. Flume will detect a broken spray head almost instantly.

[NoMoSno]

One example: You can easily burn through more than $250 irrigation water before noticing a broken spray head. Flume will detect a broken spray head almost instantly.
A broken spray head won't leak any water until your controller opens a zone valve. The Flume will just read it as the normal irrigation cycle.

[Bill14564]

A broken spray head won't leak any water until your controller opens a zone valve. The Flume will just read it as the normal irrigation cycle.

The Flume will note that significantly more water was used during that particular irrigation cycle indicating a broken head. You will see it the first day water goes through the broken head rather than six weeks later when a large bill arrives.

[Maker]

Flume measures continuously, and reports flow per minute.
For irritation meters... It seems that meters failing in a manner that is unusual. They do not count extra high during operation. They do not count when there is no flow. They count a correct amount for 5 to 15 minutes and then the magnets that the Flume senses seem to spin wildly, adding a huge amount of flow "usage" in under 1 minute time. Then back to normal.
These phantom bursts are not reflected in any noticeable change in water flow out the heads. And it is not unique to any irrigation zone.

Flow rate example, per minute, in GPM: 5 5 5 5 30 5 5 5 ..... 5 5 43 5 5 5 etc

[Altavia]

Flume measures continuously, and reports flow per minute.
For irritation meters... It seems that meters failing in a manner that is unusual. They do not count extra high during operation. They do not count when there is no flow. They count a correct amount for 5 to 15 minutes and then the magnets that the Flume senses seem to spin wildly, adding a huge amount of flow "usage" in under 1 minute time. Then back to normal.
These phantom bursts are not reflected in any noticeable change in water flow out the heads. And it is not unique to any irrigation zone.

Flow rate example, per minute, in GPM: 5 5 5 5 30 5 5 5 ..... 5 5 43 5 5 5 etc

Very interesting, how did you determine this?

[Pballer]

Has anyone monitored their irrigation water usage using a Hunter Hydrawise HC Flow Meter connected to a Hydrawise irrigation controller?

[Pairadocs]

I will be very interested to hear how you resolve this. I expect you will encounter a great deal of pushback from the District who will argue their meters do not make mistakes and will take exception to being presented with conflicting data.

Been here a long long long time now, never heard of the utility district acknowledging a "mistake", or a billing "error".