Mikey Lee

[Dave951]

With all the comments about the lack of Executive golf south of 44 why didn't they build an Executive course instead of pitch-n-putt and putt-n-play at Mickey Lee

[Dusty_Star]

With all the comments about the lack of Executive golf south of 44 why didn't they build an Executive course instead of pitch-n-putt and putt-n-play at Mickey Lee


Good question. Why did they build Richmond Pitch & Putt instead of an executive?

[dewilson58]

With all the comments about the lack of Executive golf south of 44 why didn't they build an Executive course instead of pitch-n-putt and putt-n-play at Mickey Lee

Because they don't read ToTV?? :loco:

Because the planning phase was completed 10 years ago??? :oops:

[Dusty_Star]

With all the comments about the lack of Executive golf south of 44 why didn't they build an Executive course instead of pitch-n-putt and putt-n-play at Mickey Lee

Or, why are all of the Pitch & Putts newly built & why are the 4 putting courses newly built?

[Rainger99]

Or, why are all of the Pitch & Putts newly built & why are the 4 putting courses newly built?

That way, the Villages can claim that they have 108 more golf holes!

[Rainger99]

Because they don't read ToTV?? :loco:

Because the planning phase was completed 10 years ago??? :oops:

Why was their 10 year planning so much better in previous years?

[dewilson58]

Why was their 10 year planning so much better in previous years?

Golf participation was declining 10, 15 years ago for the first time in 20, 25 years.

[Altavia]

Their trying to draw the poor players away from the real courses ;-)

[LeRoySmith]

An executive or championship course do me no good. I love the pitch and putt and you should too, they keep me off the real courses. Imagine having a hack in front of you slowing you down, dropping beer cans and peeing in the bushes. We need a few more pitch and pick putts and a few less executive/ championship courses.

[tophcfa]

Because they don't read ToTV?? :loco:

Because the planning phase was completed 10 years ago??? :oops:

Hopefully the decision makers got the message loud and clear when Silver Lake was renovated. A resident survey was taken to determine 1) Renovate the existing course and keep it an Executive. 2) Convert it to a newly renovated/built pitch and put.

The results showed an overwhelming desire among residents to keep it as an Executive course, in an area with no pitch and puts. It appeared obvious that a conversion to a pitch and put was favored by the decision makers, but they yielded to the residents overwhelming sentiment. Unfortunately, residents desires don't appear to be requested/considered when planning new golf build out plans in the southern area.

Whoever was in charge of the planning phase 10 years ago appears to have gotten it wrong, at least from the perspective of golfing residents.

[UpNorth]

With all the comments about the lack of Executive golf south of 44 why didn't they build an Executive course instead of pitch-n-putt and putt-n-play at Mickey Lee

Because you can build more houses on the available land and still claim "golf course views".

[Rainger99]

Golf participation was declining 10, 15 years ago for the first time in 20, 25 years.

It is true that, nationwide, total participation in golf started decreasing about 15-20 years ago. However, most of the decline was with millennials and the two biggest factors were that golf took too much time and that it was too expensive.

The Villages is unique in that most people are retired so time is not a factor and since golf is free for life, cost is not a factor. Therefore, the two biggest factors don’t apply here.

In addition, the Villages is one of the fastest growing areas of the country.

If you had a normal sized city with average population growth, you would have been wise not to add additional golf courses in the past 15-20 years as they would be underutilized today.

But the Villages is unlike the rest of the country.

And if you advertised yourself as the golf capital of the world and one of your top marketing features was “free golf for life,” and you were the fastest growing area in the country, you would want to build more courses to keep up with demand and population growth.

[Two Bills]

"Who pays the piper, calls the tune!"

[kansasr]

Be thankful for the pitch and putts....you don't want many of us who play them to be clogging up play on executives if they didn't exist. And for people moving to The Villages who have never played golf, they are the perfect introduction to the game.

[Marathon Man]

The best thing about Pitch and Putt is the fact that they are walked. More golfers should give them a try, especially those who get little or no exercise. A fun healthy activity in our retirement years is a good thing.

[dewilson58]

It is true that, nationwide, total participation in golf started decreasing about 15-20 years ago. However, most of the decline was with millennials and the two biggest factors were that golf took too much time and that it was too expensive.

And if you advertised yourself as the golf capital of the world and one of your top marketing features was “free golf for life,” and you were the fastest growing area in the country, you would want to build more courses to keep up with demand and population growth.

Actually, the millennials are more active than the groups around them:
Generation Swing
Different generations have their take on the game:

In 2021, 4% of Gen Z Americans (born between 1995-2012) picked up a club and said they played golf. For Millennial Americans (born between 1980-1994), 12% embraced the sport in 2021. As for Generation X Americans (born between 1965-1979), 7% joined the ranks of golf enthusiasts in 2021.

Each of these groups are their future......boomers are dying. :cryin2:

Good thing............their advertising is still true. Golf Cap of World & Free golf for life.

[dewilson58]

Be thankful for the pitch and putts....you don't want many of us who play them to be clogging up play on executives if they didn't exist. And for people moving to The Villages who have never played golf, they are the perfect introduction to the game.

So true.

[Bay Kid]

They were built so you could always find a tee time.

[Altavia]

Some of the Level 1 Exec's are close to being P&P courses but you can use your golf cart.

[JMintzer]

Simple answer:

Because they didn't have enough land for an Executive course on those areas...

The southern area along Morse/Meggison is VERY narrow and with the Southern Oaks course taking up so much space, there simple wasn't enough land for more executives.

The area with more land mass (Marsh Bend, Fenney, De Luna) has what 5 Executive courses?

Now that they're expanding west and south of the Turnpike, there are huge tracts of land that can handle more golf courses. Three (a championship, an Executive and a Pitch & Putt) are scheduled to open later this year, with more already scheduled or under construction...

[Altavia]

Simple answer:

Because they didn't have enough land for an Executive course on those areas...

The southern area along Morse/Meggison is VERY narrow and thith the Southern Oaks course taking up so much space, there simple wasn't enough land for more executives.

The area with more land mass (Marsh Bend, Fenney, De Luna) has what 5 Executive courses?

Now that they're expanding west and south of the Turnpike, there are huge tracts of land that can handle more golf courses. Three (a championship, an Executive and a Pitch & Putt) are scheduled to open later this year, with more already scheduled or under construction...

They also probably want enough space to have high profit premium golf course view lots around the course that add $250K+ to the purchase price of a home.

[JMintzer]

They also probably want enough space to have high profit premium golf course view lots around the course that add $250K+ to the purchase price of a home.

Why wouldn't they?

[MrFlorida]

They are good for new golfers to practice on, instead of using the executive courses.

[Dave951]

Just reading the replys. A level one executive course would have been perfect at Mickey Lee. Similar to Turtle Mound or Sarasota

[JMintzer]

Just reading the replys. A level one executive course would have been perfect at Mickey Lee. Similar to Turtle Mound or Sarasota

Except, it wouldn't fit...

Turtle mound is more than twice the yardage the the front 9 of Mickey Lee...

[Rainger99]

Just reading the replys. A level one executive course would have been perfect at Mickey Lee. Similar to Turtle Mound or Sarasota

I agree. Plenty of room for nine holes - if they had wanted to do it. Play 1 red box to green 2; 3-4; 5-6; etc. Plenty of room for nine holes -especially if you use the land for the putting course.

[JMintzer]

I agree. Plenty of room for nine holes - if they had wanted to do it. Play 1 red box to green 2; 3-4; 5-6; etc. Plenty of room for nine holes -especially if you use the land for the putting course.

Then why didn't they put one in? It would have many many more people happy, right?

Maybe, just maybe it was because they would need more than TWICE as much land to build an executive course?

[Bogie Shooter]

They also probably want enough space to have high profit premium golf course view lots around the course that add $250K+ to the purchase price of a home.
Is that bad? Why?
So, build it they will come.

[Papa_lecki]

They also probably want enough space to have high profit premium golf course view lots around the course that add $250K+ to the purchase price of a home.

I heard they got a HUGE premium for the lots around Mickeylee P&P. Especially the lots on the west side of the course.
Same for all the lots around Richmond P&P - I heard it was a $400,000 premium on the west and south side.

[Altavia]

Is that bad? Why?
So, build it they will come.


They need enough room for the golf course PLUS land for homes with a view around the course.

This was not possible north of the Turpike.

[Altavia]

I heard they got a HUGE premium for the lots around Mickeylee P&P. Especially the lots on the west side of the course.
Same for all the lots around Richmond P&P - I heard it was a $400,000 premium on the west and south side.

Exactly, those cumulative premiums may be enough to finance the construction of the course.

[MrChip72]

Good question. Why did they build Richmond Pitch & Putt instead of an executive?

Richmond is one example where an executive course absolutely would not fit in that small area. It probably is under half the size of most executive courses plus they were constrained on three sides on what could be built there (turnpike, golf cart bridge, Meggison). It was basically built as a buffer from the turnpike but it's well utilized and in a good location so I think it was a good decision.

[kansasr]

I heard they got a HUGE premium for the lots around Mickeylee P&P. Especially the lots on the west side of the course.
Same for all the lots around Richmond P&P - I heard it was a $400,000 premium on the west and south side.

Clearly you didn't hear this from someone with an understanding of Villages geography. There are no homes on the west (just the turnpike) or the south (just Meggison) sides of Richmond Pitch & Putt.

103617

[JMintzer]

Richmond is one example where an executive course absolutely would not fit in that small area. It probably is under half the size of most executive courses plus they were constrained on three sides on what could be built there (turnpike, golf cart bridge, Meggison). It was basically built as a buffer from the turnpike but it's well utilized and in a good location so I think it was a good decision.

Sorry, but logic and reason have no place in this discussion... :loco:

[Rainger99]

Simple answer:
Because they didn't have enough land for an Executive course on those areas...


If I am reading the maps correctly,

Marsh View is 27.96 acres.
Richmond is 32.96 acres.
Mickylee is 45.7 acres.

Lowlands is 48.09 acres
Loblolly and Longleaf are a combined 90.93 acres or 45.465 acres each.
Red Fox and Gray Fox are a combined 80.35 acres or 40.175 acres each.
Turtle Mound and Sandhill are a combined 82.81 acres or 41.405 acres each.
Yankee Clipper and Southern Star are a combined 85.95 acres or 42.975 acres each.
Roosevelt and Truman are a combined 83.97 acres or 41.985 acres each.

I agree that Marsh View and Richmond are too small for an executive course but Mickylee is larger than many of the existing executives.

[kansasr]

If I am reading the maps correctly,

Marsh View is 27.96 acres.
Richmond is 32.96 acres.
Mickylee is 45.7 acres.

Lowlands is 48.09 acres
Loblolly and Longleaf are a combined 90.93 acres or 45.465 acres each.
Red Fox and Gray Fox are a combined 80.35 acres or 40.175 acres each.
Turtle Mound and Sandhill are a combined 82.81 acres or 41.405 acres each.
Yankee Clipper and Southern Star are a combined 85.95 acres or 42.975 acres each.
Roosevelt and Truman are a combined 83.97 acres or 41.985 acres each.

I agree that Marsh View and Richmond are too small for an executive course but Mickylee is larger than many of the existing executives.

About a third of the Mickey Lee property is the rec center and the two postal stations. You might have squeezed something in the remaking space but I think the pitch and putt and the putting course is a much better use of the space

[Papa_lecki]

If I am reading the maps correctly,

Marsh View is 27.96 acres.
Richmond is 32.96 acres.
Mickylee is 45.7 acres.

Lowlands is 48.09 acres
Loblolly and Longleaf are a combined 90.93 acres or 45.465 acres each.
Red Fox and Gray Fox are a combined 80.35 acres or 40.175 acres each.
Turtle Mound and Sandhill are a combined 82.81 acres or 41.405 acres each.
Yankee Clipper and Southern Star are a combined 85.95 acres or 42.975 acres each.
Roosevelt and Truman are a combined 83.97 acres or 41.985 acres each.

I agree that Marsh View and Richmond are too small for an executive course but Mickylee is larger than many of the existing executives.

Don’t forget, hitting a pitching wedge requires much less space left ot right for an mis hit than an mis hit on a 175 yard par 3, or the par 4s on an executive.
Mickeylee is narrow

[JMintzer]

If I am reading the maps correctly,

Marsh View is 27.96 acres.
Richmond is 32.96 acres.
Mickylee is 45.7 acres.

Lowlands is 48.09 acres
Loblolly and Longleaf are a combined 90.93 acres or 45.465 acres each.
Red Fox and Gray Fox are a combined 80.35 acres or 40.175 acres each.
Turtle Mound and Sandhill are a combined 82.81 acres or 41.405 acres each.
Yankee Clipper and Southern Star are a combined 85.95 acres or 42.975 acres each.
Roosevelt and Truman are a combined 83.97 acres or 41.985 acres each.

I agree that Marsh View and Richmond are too small for an executive course but Mickylee is larger than many of the existing executives.

You are also ignoring the land surrounding the actual course. Most of the land you're claiming could be used was reclaimed "prairie"... Where as the other areas (like Turtle mound and Sandhill) were not.

And like I said before, compare the length of the holes on MickeyLee, compared to most Exec courses. Much shorter.

It's not all about square footage or acreage. It's about "usable land"...

It's the same thing when you drive thru Marsh Bend, for example. There are very large tracts of "open space" that is just not suitable to build on...

[Papa_lecki]

Clearly you didn't hear this from someone with an understanding of Villages geography. There are no homes on the west (just the turnpike) or the south (just Meggison) sides of Richmond Pitch & Putt.

103617

That was the purpose of my comment. There are no houses around Mickey Lee. Notice what I said about Richmond, I left off the section that actually has houses

[MrChip72]

If I am reading the maps correctly,

Marsh View is 27.96 acres.
Richmond is 32.96 acres.
Mickylee is 45.7 acres.

Lowlands is 48.09 acres
Loblolly and Longleaf are a combined 90.93 acres or 45.465 acres each.
Red Fox and Gray Fox are a combined 80.35 acres or 40.175 acres each.
Turtle Mound and Sandhill are a combined 82.81 acres or 41.405 acres each.
Yankee Clipper and Southern Star are a combined 85.95 acres or 42.975 acres each.
Roosevelt and Truman are a combined 83.97 acres or 41.985 acres each.

I agree that Marsh View and Richmond are too small for an executive course but Mickylee is larger than many of the existing executives.

Thanks for this info. I can add some context since I play some of these courses often.

If you compare to Lowlands, Loblolly or Longleaf, those courses essentially meander between homes and also have portions on the opposite sides of major streets so it's not a single contiguous chunk like Richmond and March View are. Comparing 45 acres for Loblolly/Longleaf to 32 acres at Richmond, that's 40% more land. That's significant. If Richmond P&P was 45 acres there wouldn't be much room left for the Village of Richmond there.

[MrChip72]

You are also ignoring the land surrounding the actual course. Most of the land you're claiming could be used was reclaimed "prairie"... Where as the other areas (like Turtle mound and Sandhill) were not.


This is a good point. If you look at Richmond P&P, there is no surrounding land. Zero. There's a fence where the Waterlily bridge is, another fence along the turnpike, a fence separating some non Villages property, and the rest is bordered by home lots.

Most of those other executives have some surrounding land that are not part of the actual course but many balls still end up there.

[Jim1mack]

On most executive courses, if you hit from the closest tees the distances are less than 100 yds. 80-90 yds. With a decent hit the ball will roll onto the green. P&Ps are a slightly longer walk (2.3-2.4 miles) than if you walk an executive. Executives allow golf carts so then basically very little walking involved. I speak from experience.

[Dave951]

It's disappointing to see all the open tee times for pitch-n-putt Obviously it's not as popular as they expected it to be. A better choice would have been executive golf

[tophcfa]

It's disappointing to see all the open tee times for pitch-n-putt Obviously it's not as popular as they expected it to be. A better choice would have been executive golf

Agree, yet another one is in the plans. Go figure?

[kansasr]

It's disappointing to see all the open tee times for pitch-n-putt Obviously it's not as popular as they expected it to be. A better choice would have been executive golf

Have you actually checked the availability on the pitch and putts? I think not, if you look at tomorrow, for example, the only open slots for a 4some are early in the morning and late in the afternoon. Yes, you'll see more 2somes available than on the executives, but I'd hardly call it "all the open tee times".

Quit bashing the pitch and putt courses....they serve a very useful purpose and are actually very popular down here. Otherwise we'll end up clogging up the executives with our 40 yard iron shots.

[MrChip72]

It's disappointing to see all the open tee times for pitch-n-putt Obviously it's not as popular as they expected it to be. A better choice would have been executive golf

2 of the 3 pitch n putts are located in places where an executive would not fit. Would you be happier if they just added more homes there instead of adding a pitch n putt? Don't forget that the pitch n putts offload some of the demand for executives.

[Rainger99]

A lot of people say that there wasn’t room for executive courses on the NE side of the turnpike.

However, they have never explained how there was room for a championship course in the area. Instead of building Southern Oaks, they could have built 2 or 3 executives. From my experience, most people play executive courses and prefer to live closer to executive courses.

If they had, they probably wouldn’t have the problem that they are having selling homes in Lake Denham or Dabney. Those homes would be a short ride from Sawgrass and two executive courses!

[JMintzer]

A lot of people say that there wasn’t room for executive courses on the NE side of the turnpike.

However, they have never explained how there was room for a championship course in the area. Instead of building Southern Oaks, they could have built 2 or 3 executives. From my experience, most people play executive courses and prefer to live closer to executive courses.

If they had, they probably wouldn’t have the problem that they are having selling homes in Lake Denham or Dabney. Those homes would be a short ride from Sawgrass and two executive courses!

Considering there were exactly ZERO Championship courses south of 44, Southern Oaks made perfect sense (there were already 5 executive courses south of 44).

If they hadn't built Southern Oaks, people would be complaining that there were STILL no championship courses south of 44. Plus, they wanted to put the pro shop in Sawgrass, and have the putting course there...

[Rainger99]

Considering there were exactly ZERO Championship courses south of 44, Southern Oaks made perfect sense (there were already 5 executive courses south of 44).

If they hadn't built Southern Oaks, people would be complaining that there were STILL no championship courses south of 44. Plus, they wanted to put the pro shop in Sawgrass, and have the putting course there...

That is a totally different argument. However, from the people that I speak to, most of them would have preferred two or three executives rather than a championship course. Also, there were about 908,000 rounds played on championship courses (324 holes) last year and 2,564,000 rounds on the executive courses (369 holes).

The demand is for executive courses - not the championship courses. And I think they are building two or three championship courses in Eastport.

[kansasr]

That is a totally different argument. However, from the people that I speak to, most of them would have preferred two or three executives rather than a championship course. Also, there were about 908,000 rounds played on championship courses (324 holes) last year and 2,564,000 rounds on the executive courses (369 holes).

The demand is for executive courses - not the championship courses. And I think they are building two or three championship courses in Eastport.

Actually the announced plans so far call for 3 championship and 4 Executive and 1 pitch and putt west of the turnpike.

I think we’re going to be just fine over here.

[JMintzer]

Actually the announced plans so far call for 3 championship and 4 Executive and 1 pitch and putt west of the turnpike.

I think we’re going to be just fine over here.

And the first championship, executive and pitch & putt courses scheduled to open (later this year) will be just over the new Bexley Bridge that just opened...

All quite close to Southern Oaks...

[MrChip72]

A lot of people say that there wasn’t room for executive courses on the NE side of the turnpike.

However, they have never explained how there was room for a championship course in the area. Instead of building Southern Oaks, they could have built 2 or 3 executives. From my experience, most people play executive courses and prefer to live closer to executive courses.


They really should've added an executive as well as building Southern Oaks. There was plenty of room there to do it at the sacrifice of a few less homes being built. They could've easily got their money back by selling golf course lots anyways.

Some people likely don't realize that the 5 executives that are "south of 44" are nowhere near the villages that are "south of 44" AND East of Morse Ave (Hawkins, Citrus Grove, Lake Denham, etc), more like a 30-40 minute golf cart ride for most of those folks. So that area around Sawgrass has to be the most isolated area of TV when it comes to proximity to an executive course.

[Rainger99]

So that area around Sawgrass has to be the most isolated area of TV when it comes to proximity to an executive course.

That is correct. The only good news is that they are building courses in Eastport. This will help those in Hawkins, St. Catherine, Cason Hammock, Citrus Grove, and Newell. However, if you live in Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Lake Denham, or Dabney, you will still have a long ride to the Eastport courses.

[Altavia]

They really should've added an executive as well as building Southern Oaks. There was plenty of room there to do it at the sacrifice of a few less homes being built. They could've easily got their money back by selling golf course lots anyways.

Some people likely don't realize that the 5 executives that are "south of 44" are nowhere near the villages that are "south of 44" AND East of Morse Ave (Hawkins, Citrus Grove, Lake Denham, etc), more like a 30-40 minute golf cart ride for most of those folks. So that area around Sawgrass has to be the most isolated area of TV when it comes to proximity to an executive course.

Some people purchased realizing the areas is under development and those courses and all the new ones will be less than 15 min away once McNeil and Corbin are open.

[UpNorth]

The demand is for executive courses - not the championship courses. And I think they are building two or three championship courses in Eastport.[/QUOTE]

Both Executive and Championship courses give the developer high priced "golf view" lots to sell. But the execs are maintained like public parks, while the championship courses are profit making private property. Like Southern Oaks in the beginning, I would not be surprised to see these new championship courses to have the highest greens fees in The Villages. Perhaps close to $100 per round in the high season?

[kansasr]

Some people purchased realizing the areas is under development and those courses and all the new ones will be less than 15 min away once McNeil and Corbin are open.
Agreed. The new Laurel Oak exec that is well underway will be 5 minutes over the Bexley Bridge. Belleaire, next to Eastport, another 5-7 minutes further. Another 10 minutes will get you to the new Beautyberry and Honeysuckle execs that are under development. True a little further from Chitty Chatty, but you can always go north and take advantage of those courses (oh way, 7 of them are closed at the moment....)

[tophcfa]

Don't forget that the pitch n putts offload some of the demand for executives.

More executives would do an even better job of offloading the demand on the existing ones.