USGA details issues facing golf course conditions

[The Gazette]

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More... (https://www.gazettenewsthevillages.com/usga-details-issues-facing-golf-course-conditions/)

[Shipping up to Boston]

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More... (https://www.gazettenewsthevillages.com/usga-details-issues-facing-golf-course-conditions/)

Oh Boy!
Under 10 handicaps can go first on this one!

[tophcfa]

I read the whole report. The first thing that came to mind is that the consultant is telling the party that paid him exactly what his client wanted to hear.

[dewilson58]

I disagree with Neff.






(I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

[Shipping up to Boston]

I disagree with Neff.






(I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night)


Is this the same firm that did the Deflategate report?

[thelegges]

Really can’t comment on right or wrong diagnosis, grass keeping, shade of trees, and old infrastructure wasn’t in any premed classes.
Since my education was to keep humans well, I have to hope a person who actually studied dirt, would have insight on problems, and offer constructive recommendations.
If intention was just to say what management wanted to hear, my hope is consultant was Free, otherwise why waste time and resources.

Besides I can kill any plant, tree or bush in under 30 days. Weeds however continue to thrive without any encouragement.

[Shipping up to Boston]

You do realize a Agronomist basically studies plants, how they can be grown, modified etc. Basically what a local farmer could’ve done as a courtesy for his/her ‘neighbors’!

[BrianL99]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Shipping up to Boston]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they've done a fairly lousy job of maintaining the courses and have now found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Wonder if some of those ‘findings’ were derived from a cursory check of the numerous threads on this forum. Basically an informal poll using this medium as the QB. El Niño seems to be a safe word for many ‘consultants’!

[firefighter4u]

well I read today that we are heading in to a La Niña, so I'm guessing everything we be hunky dory this time next year!

[UpNorth]

Trees? Where? There aren't any trees on those 4 executive courses that shade the greens, tees or fairways.

[Stu from NYC]

Wonder why no criticism directed at landscapers? They are not a privileged class.

[BrianL99]

Wonder if some of those ‘findings’ were derived from a cursory check of the numerous threads on this forum. Basically an informal poll using this medium as the QB. El Niño seems to be a safe word for many ‘consultants’!

The El Nino thing has some modicum of substance. I'm far from an expert on Bermuda grass (or anything, for that matter), but as I understand Bermuda, it needs it's Vitamin D. Apparently if it doesn't get 8-10 house of sunshine a day, the stuff just won't grow.

We did have a pretty good stretch of weather, without much sun and warmth.

[MrChip72]

I know some people on here like to label things as fictional just because they don't fully understand them, but the El Nino thing isn't just something that the golf people in TV made up out of thin air. It's been widely reported all over Florida this year:

El Nino wallops South Florida - GCMOnline.com (https://gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/el-nino-wallops-south-florida)

More links here plus a webinar hosted by a University of Florida turf specialist:

Current Challenges | GCSAA (https://www.gcsaa.org/resources/current-challenges)

Even 8 years ago it was identified as a cause of poor golf conditions by the USGA:

https://www.usga.org/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/strong-el-nino-impacting-southern-golf-courses.html

I'm not saying that the only reason was El Nino, that's obvious. But it likely had to do with putting these poorly managed courses over the tipping point at this exact time.

[Shipping up to Boston]

I know some people on here like to label things as fictional just because they don't fully understand them, but the El Nino thing isn't just something that the golf people in TV made up out of thin air. It's been widely reported all over Florida this year:

El Nino wallops South Florida - GCMOnline.com (https://gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/el-nino-wallops-south-florida)

More links here plus a webinar hosted by a University of Florida turf specialist:

Current Challenges | GCSAA (https://www.gcsaa.org/resources/current-challenges)

Even 8 years ago it was identified as a cause of poor golf conditions by the USGA:

https://www.usga.org/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/strong-el-nino-impacting-southern-golf-courses.html

I'm not saying that the only reason was El Nino, that's obvious. But it likely had to do with putting these poorly managed courses over the tipping point at this exact time.

These are the bullets from the USGA 2016 El Niño report. Not passing judgment....just asking the active TV golfers if you believe any of the below was followed this past winter?

2016

How can you protect your golf course?

Ultimately, we need drier weather and more sunlight. A few tips to consider for improving turf health and playability at your facility include:

1. Monitor soil moisture and reduce overhead irrigation – Many facilities have not applied irrigation since before Christmas 2015, yet root zones remain saturated due to the increased rainfall. Keep track of your soil moisture and reduce irrigation as much as possible at this time. Spend the extra money and purchase a dependable soil moisture meter that measures volumetric water content.

2. Increase mowing heights on greens – Do not stress your greens by mowing low. Sacrifice a little bit of playability for turf health and be more tolerant of slightly slower conditions. Turfgrass leaves are like miniature solar panels. Therefore, providing greater leaf area by increasing mowing heights will allow turf to create more energy through photosynthesis, promoting turf health and deeper roots.

3. Vent greens regularly with solid-tine aeration – Venting with small, “pencil” tines – e.g., 0.25-inch diameter solid tines – is recommended on a monthly basis during normal winter months. Some facilities are venting greens as frequently as every two weeks. Venting improves rooting by relieving soil compaction and increasing soil oxygen.

4. Use plant protectants – Fungicides are being applied at many facilities to reduce disease and improve turf growth. Leaf spot and Pythium diseases have been among the most common pathogens on golf courses over the past few weeks.

5. Manage golfer traffic – Ropes and stakes often are used to reduce cart traffic stress and are particularly helpful during the winter. Also, more courses than normal have adopted “cart path only” policies during the past month because of saturated soil conditions.

6. Implement a fairway topdressing program – “Mud balls” are a common problem when fairway soils remain saturated and are caused, in part, by an undiluted surface layer of organic matter. This thick, spongy layer causes more plugged lies and increases the occurrence of mud – i.e., organic matter – on balls. While fairway topdressing is costly, it certainly improves playability – especially surface firmness – and helps reduce the occurrence of “mud balls” in fairways with excessive organic matter.

Source: Todd Lowe (tlowe@usga.org) and Steve Kammerer (skammerer@usga.org)

[sowilts]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
I thought the idea of Executive par 3 holes was to hit the green. Why do they have fairways. Par four holes can be traditional. That would save lots of money. Pitch and putt courses should not exist. Another savings. Agree with your excellent comments.

[Sunrise Beach]

The removal of the trees was what I felt was a lousy excuse. Most great golf courses have beautiful trees throughout. I urge any management who might read this thread to reconsider that aspect. We know the grass will not be lush in those areas but at least we aren’t playing in a desert devoid of trees and a bit of shade.

[MX rider]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

I agree with you on this. Very well said

[MPhoto]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Totally agree!

[Boffin]

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More... (https://www.gazettenewsthevillages.com/usga-details-issues-facing-golf-course-conditions/)

A consultant is someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time.

[Joe Mack]

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.


Flak jacket well deserved for that snarky comment in a senior community. BTW, the pitch and putts require a lot of walking. Perhaps the villages should rebrand itself as a senior community, as long as you're not "to" senior.

[kkingston57]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".



Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Some good points but you still need a flack jacket. Most of the complaints/problems are on the greens. NO carts allowed on the greens. Have not done a survey but bet that 90% of the golf carts stay on the asphalt and/or concrete cart paths.

Though you might have suggested that the courses should not allow riding mowers on the greens. That will work but will cause a huge ruckus when labor costs sky rocket

[ThirdOfFive]

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

[BrianL99]

The removal of the trees was what I felt was a lousy excuse. Most great golf courses have beautiful trees throughout. I urge any management who might read this thread to reconsider that aspect. We know the grass will not be lush in those areas but at least we aren’t playing in a desert devoid of trees and a bit of shade.

Every quality golf course in the world, has a "tree removal/trimming plan" in place. Trees are removed, canopies are managed.

Other than "specimen trees" (such as on the 9th hole of Talley Ho or the famous "Hinkle Tree at Inverness, during the '79 US Open), trees generally have no place within the playing area and many cases, "cart paths" can't be tree-lined, because root growth undermines the cart paths (this is a different in some areas, depending on whether the tree root growth is vertical or horizontal).

Most every Donald Ross course in the USA, has had major "tree removal" initiatives, over the last 25 or so years. The courses don't play the same as they did when Ross designed them.

I'm reminded of the old Sam Snead story, when he played with a young pro.

Sam said, "whey I was younger, I used to drive the ball right over that big ol' Oak tree and cut the dogleg". When the young pro tried it, he made a double bogey. Sam laughed and said, "of course, when I was younger, that tree was a lot shorter".

[BrianL99]

Flak jacket well deserved for that snarky comment in a senior community. BTW, the pitch and putts require a lot of walking. Perhaps the villages should rebrand itself as a senior community, as long as you're not "to" senior.

No, it's not "snarky", it's common sense.

Do we allow Softball players to use scooters, when they're too old to run the bases?

Do we allow Pickleball players to use powered rackets?

Do we lower the Basketball rims to 6', 'cause old folks can't jump?

At some point, age catches up with everyone and we physically can't do what we'd like to do.

It's inevitable and the price we pay, to remain on the right side of the grass (no pun intended).

& The Villages is doing just fine. There are plenty of options nearby, when you're "too" senior and need assistance.

[Steve]

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More... (https://www.gazettenewsthevillages.com/usga-details-issues-facing-golf-course-conditions/)

Not that familiar with Bonita Pass and Redfish Run, but show me a tree on Pelican or Bacall that would cause a problem like those stated in the report. Pelican MAYBE on holes 7 & 8, but does Bacall even have a tree on it? I think the POA Bulletin made a good point about The Villages now building homes first and Golf Courses, Rec Centers, etc. AFTER homes are inhabited as opposed to when the amenities were built first THEN the houses were built. All those golfers South of 44 have to come up North to play golf and that puts higher than normal traffic on the courses between 44 and 466.

[coleprice]

Follow the Money!!! Chris Neff's consulting fees were paid by The Villages.

Executive Leadership employed by The Villages who are responsible for Golf Course Management are Replaced! Mitch Leininger, who is The Villages executive responsible for Golf Course Maintenance should be FIRED for the failure of his organization to maintain golf courses. His failure is costing Village residents many millions of dollars, so his replacement(s) must (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. Some Executive Golf Courses are in great shape, which demonstrates that with the right leadership, golf course conditions can be properly maintained within the current budget. Also, it's nice to see that nobody is buying the lies about the weather causing golf course deterioration.

[coleprice]

Follow the Money!!! Consulting fees were paid by The Villages. Many courses are in good condition, which means that courses in poor condition suffered from mismanagement and neglect . . . Executive Leadership employed by The Villages who are responsible for Golf Course Management are Replaced! Mitch Leininger, who is The Villages executive responsible for Golf Course Maintenance should be FIRED for the failure of his organization to maintain golf courses. His failure is costing Village residents many millions of dollars, so his replacement(s) must (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. Some Executive Golf Courses are in great shape, which demonstrates that with the right leadership, golf course conditions can be properly maintained within the current budget. Also, it's nice to see that nobody is buying the lies about the weather causing golf course deterioration.

[BrianL99]

Some good points but you still need a flack jacket. Most of the complaints/problems are on the greens. NO carts allowed on the greens. Have not done a survey but bet that 90% of the golf carts stay on the asphalt and/or concrete cart paths.

Though you might have suggested that the courses should not allow riding mowers on the greens. That will work but will cause a huge ruckus when labor costs sky rocket

I understand that the greens are a huge problem. I've always been reliably informed, that many of the Executive Courses don't have USGA Spec greens, but are old fashioned, "push up" greens. Push up greens can work well for 50 years under some conditions, but not so much in the Executive golf environment of The Villages (it's tough enough to maintain USGA greens, here). When the courses with "push up" greens are renovated, I suspect most will get USGA type greens, which will work much better.

As for "riding mowers" on the greens ...

Hand mowing is obviously labor/cost intensive. That said, modern green mowers have a smaller impact on greens, than walking. Off the top of my head, I don't know the psi, but they're very light on their feet.

[mntlblok]

These are the bullets from the USGA 2016 El Niño report. Not passing judgment....just asking the active TV golfers if you believe any of the below was followed this past winter?

2016

How can you protect your golf course?

Ultimately, we need drier weather and more sunlight. A few tips to consider for improving turf health and playability at your facility include:

1. Monitor soil moisture and reduce overhead irrigation – Many facilities have not applied irrigation since before Christmas 2015, yet root zones remain saturated due to the increased rainfall. Keep track of your soil moisture and reduce irrigation as much as possible at this time. Spend the extra money and purchase a dependable soil moisture meter that measures volumetric water content.

2. Increase mowing heights on greens – Do not stress your greens by mowing low. Sacrifice a little bit of playability for turf health and be more tolerant of slightly slower conditions. Turfgrass leaves are like miniature solar panels. Therefore, providing greater leaf area by increasing mowing heights will allow turf to create more energy through photosynthesis, promoting turf health and deeper roots.

3. Vent greens regularly with solid-tine aeration – Venting with small, “pencil” tines – e.g., 0.25-inch diameter solid tines – is recommended on a monthly basis during normal winter months. Some facilities are venting greens as frequently as every two weeks. Venting improves rooting by relieving soil compaction and increasing soil oxygen.

4. Use plant protectants – Fungicides are being applied at many facilities to reduce disease and improve turf growth. Leaf spot and Pythium diseases have been among the most common pathogens on golf courses over the past few weeks.

5. Manage golfer traffic – Ropes and stakes often are used to reduce cart traffic stress and are particularly helpful during the winter. Also, more courses than normal have adopted “cart path only” policies during the past month because of saturated soil conditions.

6. Implement a fairway topdressing program – “Mud balls” are a common problem when fairway soils remain saturated and are caused, in part, by an undiluted surface layer of organic matter. This thick, spongy layer causes more plugged lies and increases the occurrence of mud – i.e., organic matter – on balls. While fairway topdressing is costly, it certainly improves playability – especially surface firmness – and helps reduce the occurrence of “mud balls” in fairways with excessive organic matter.

Source: Todd Lowe (tlowe@usga.org) and Steve Kammerer (skammerer@usga.org)

Most excellent info. Thanks for sharing.

[ThirdOfFive]

No, it's not "snarky", it's common sense.

Do we allow Softball players to use scooters, when they're too old to run the bases?

Do we allow Pickleball players to use powered rackets?

Do we lower the Basketball rims to 6', 'cause old folks can't jump?

At some point, age catches up with everyone and we physically can't do what we'd like to do.

It's inevitable and the price we pay, to remain on the right side of the grass (no pun intended).

& The Villages is doing just fine. There are plenty of options nearby, when you're "too" senior and need assistance.
It scarcely needs to be pointed out that those supposedly incapable folks playing golf pay the same amenity fees as everyone else.

I would add also that golf is unique in that it can be played by folks with disabilities at all stages of life, including those related to aging. Adaptive golfers dot org. states the following:

"Adaptive Golfers empowers individuals with cognitive, physical, sensory, health and age-related challenges, to use the game of golf as a tool to improve the quality of their lives, mind, body and soul.

We provide pathways to Adaptive Therapy - Leisure Game - Adaptive Sports, even a World Ranking for Golfers with disabilities. Golf is for all DIFFERENT (not dis) ABILITIES. Come on let’s #MakeGOLFyourthing. "

I have seen groups of blind golfers out on the execs, as well as paraplegics, and various other folks with various disabilities. To see them enjoying the game is an uplifting experience. I would encourage those interested in finding out more, to Google "adaptive aids for golfers". the aids and assistive devices out there for golfers is nothing short of overwhelming.

There are always exceptions, but for myself the overall attitude of inclusiveness that overwhelmingly seems to be the mindset of Villagers is one of the primary things that attracted me to TV in the first place. "There, but for the grace of God, go I" and all that. I hope I never reach the point in my life where I see those folks more heavily impacted by advancing age than I am, as impediments.

[tophcfa]

These are the bullets from the USGA 2016 El Niño report. Not passing judgment....just asking the active TV golfers if you believe any of the below was followed this past winter?

2016

How can you protect your golf course?

Ultimately, we need drier weather and more sunlight. A few tips to consider for improving turf health and playability at your facility include:

1. Monitor soil moisture and reduce overhead irrigation – Many facilities have not applied irrigation since before Christmas 2015, yet root zones remain saturated due to the increased rainfall. Keep track of your soil moisture and reduce irrigation as much as possible at this time. Spend the extra money and purchase a dependable soil moisture meter that measures volumetric water content.

2. Increase mowing heights on greens – Do not stress your greens by mowing low. Sacrifice a little bit of playability for turf health and be more tolerant of slightly slower conditions. Turfgrass leaves are like miniature solar panels. Therefore, providing greater leaf area by increasing mowing heights will allow turf to create more energy through photosynthesis, promoting turf health and deeper roots.

3. Vent greens regularly with solid-tine aeration – Venting with small, “pencil” tines – e.g., 0.25-inch diameter solid tines – is recommended on a monthly basis during normal winter months. Some facilities are venting greens as frequently as every two weeks. Venting improves rooting by relieving soil compaction and increasing soil oxygen.

4. Use plant protectants – Fungicides are being applied at many facilities to reduce disease and improve turf growth. Leaf spot and Pythium diseases have been among the most common pathogens on golf courses over the past few weeks.

5. Manage golfer traffic – Ropes and stakes often are used to reduce cart traffic stress and are particularly helpful during the winter. Also, more courses than normal have adopted “cart path only” policies during the past month because of saturated soil conditions.

6. Implement a fairway topdressing program – “Mud balls” are a common problem when fairway soils remain saturated and are caused, in part, by an undiluted surface layer of organic matter. This thick, spongy layer causes more plugged lies and increases the occurrence of mud – i.e., organic matter – on balls. While fairway topdressing is costly, it certainly improves playability – especially surface firmness – and helps reduce the occurrence of “mud balls” in fairways with excessive organic matter.

Source: Todd Lowe (tlowe@usga.org) and Steve Kammerer (skammerer@usga.org)

Interesting. Just an observation and question regarding item 6. Last winter I played lots of golf and don’t remember getting many mud balls? It seemed like the fairways were so bone dry that a low draw off the T would run another 75 yards after hitting the fairway. If moisture below the surface is indeed an issue, wouldn’t it make sense to return to over seeding the turf like they used to? That way there will be grass growing during the winter months, rather than being dormant, and the roots will absorb the excess moisture. I’m no expert, but that seems to make sense?

[mntlblok]

I understand that the greens are a huge problem. I've always been reliably informed, that many of the Executive Courses don't have USGA Spec greens, but are old fashioned, "push up" greens. Push up greens can work well for 50 years under some conditions, but not so much in the Executive golf environment of The Villages (it's tough enough to maintain USGA greens, here). When the courses with "push up" greens are renovated, I suspect most will get USGA type greens, which will work much better.

As for "riding mowers" on the greens ...

Hand mowing is obviously labor/cost intensive. That said, modern green mowers have a smaller impact on greens, than walking. Off the top of my head, I don't know the psi, but they're very light on their feet.

Had never heard of there being two types of greens. Understanding Your Course’s Greens | by CDGA | Medium (https://medium.com/@CDGAGolf/understanding-your-courses-greens-f1d03ae78fe6)

[BrianL99]

It scarcely needs to be pointed out that those supposedly incapable folks playing golf pay the same amenity fees as everyone else.

I would add also that golf is unique in that it can be played by folks with disabilities at all stages of life, including those related to aging. Adaptive golfers dot org. states the following:

"Adaptive Golfers empowers individuals with cognitive, physical, sensory, health and age-related challenges, to use the game of golf as a tool to improve the quality of their lives, mind, body and soul.

We provide pathways to Adaptive Therapy - Leisure Game - Adaptive Sports, even a World Ranking for Golfers with disabilities. Golf is for all DIFFERENT (not dis) ABILITIES. Come on let’s #MakeGOLFyourthing. "

I have seen groups of blind golfers out on the execs, as well as paraplegics, and various other folks with various disabilities. To see them enjoying the game is an uplifting experience. I would encourage those interested in finding out more, to Google "adaptive aids for golfers". the aids and assistive devices out there for golfers is nothing short of overwhelming.

There are always exceptions, but for myself the overall attitude of inclusiveness that overwhelmingly seems to be the mindset of Villagers is one of the primary things that attracted me to TV in the first place. "There, but for the grace of God, go I" and all that. I hope I never reach the point in my life where I see those folks more heavily impacted by advancing age than I am, as impediments.

I agree, to an extent.

That said, not every sport nor sport venue, is appropriate for adaptation to everyone's needs. The theory of "inclusiveness" is fine, until it's carried to the extremes.

Wheelchair racers shouldn't be racing in marathons, along side the folks who are actually "running".

Golfers who are riding all over a small, confined golf course in vehicles, should perhaps be playing on a "field" (course), built to accommodate such use, not one built for folks who are more mobile.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Rich42]

I will leave the specifics of our problems to the experts, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they are currently saying. However, I will say again (already stated in previous threads) that the biggest problem on the Villages golf courses both championship and exec’ is the high level of play. Before moving to the villages, I retired to the Myrtle Beach area for 16 years at the time when they had over 100 golf courses. It was a hard and fast rule that no golf course allowed over 45,000 rounds in any given year to be played on it . Golf courses need time to recover. They cannot be played 365 days a year from morning till night and expect to be in good shape. It is just not possible. And unfortunately, the fact that the Villages continues to grow while reducing the rate at which new golf courses are built, our problems will only be exacerbated rather than improved in the future.

[BrianL99]

I understand that the greens are a huge problem. I've always been reliably informed, that many of the Executive Courses don't have USGA Spec greens, but are old fashioned, "push up" greens. Push up greens can work well for 50 years under some conditions, but not so much in the Executive golf environment of The Villages (it's tough enough to maintain USGA greens, here). When the courses with "push up" greens are renovated, I suspect most will get USGA type greens, which will work much better.

....

Had never heard of there being two types of greens. Understanding Your Course’s Greens | by CDGA | Medium (https://medium.com/@CDGAGolf/understanding-your-courses-greens-f1d03ae78fe6)

"Push Up Greens" were the order of the day, until the USGA Greens Section came up with their new design, I believe in the late 60's.

They are still used today, in modern golf course construction. One the most exclusive and expensive country clubs in the USA, is The Boston Club, outside of Boston. If I'm not mistaken Gil Hanse (one of the best golf course architects around) used Push Up Greens there, when he built it about 10-12 years ago. (Interesting aside to that, the founder and owner of the course was killed, when he was "helping" build the course and a compactor/roller he was operating, flipped.)

As I understand them, Push Up Greens work best in extremely sandy soils (like certain parts of Florida).

The Pines course at The International in Bolton, MA sits on over 75'-100' of sand in most places. That course had old-fashioned Push Up Greens and were some of the best greens in the USA (including the largest green in the US, at about 25,000 sq. ft on Hole #5). The greens were sensational. They have another course built in the 90's by Fazio. The soils there are different and USGA Greens were used.

The Pines course is currently under-going a complete redesign at the hands of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw. It will likely make GD's Top 100, after a few years of growing in.

[ThirdOfFive]

I will leave the specifics of our problems to the experts, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they are currently saying. However, I will say again (already stated in previous threads) that the biggest problem on the Villages golf courses both championship and exec’ is the high level of play. Before moving to the villages, I retired to the Myrtle Beach area for 16 years at the time when they had over 100 golf courses. It was a hard and fast rule that no golf course allowed over 45,000 rounds in any given year to be played on it . Golf courses need time to recover. They cannot be played 365 days a year from morning till night and expect to be in good shape. It is just not possible. And unfortunately, the fact that the Villages continues to grow while reducing the rate at which new golf courses are built, our problems will only be exacerbated rather than improved in the future.
Good points.

One thing that could be done, but as far as I know isn't, is to limit the number of rounds per player to one per day, and add maybe two minutes to the length of time between tee times. I know of people (snowbirds as well as year-round people) who think nothing of playing two or even three rounds per day, and especially during the winter months that is not only adding to heavier traffic but also limits tee times.

[Shipping up to Boston]

I will leave the specifics of our problems to the experts, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they are currently saying. However, I will say again (already stated in previous threads) that the biggest problem on the Villages golf courses both championship and exec’ is the high level of play. Before moving to the villages, I retired to the Myrtle Beach area for 16 years at the time when they had over 100 golf courses. It was a hard and fast rule that no golf course allowed over 45,000 rounds in any given year to be played on it . Golf courses need time to recover. They cannot be played 365 days a year from morning till night and expect to be in good shape. It is just not possible. And unfortunately, the fact that the Villages continues to grow while reducing the rate at which new golf courses are built, our problems will only be exacerbated rather than improved in the future.

I also lived in MB for a bit....back when there were over 125 courses on the Grand Strand. People in TV love to say how immune they are to natural disasters (ie; hurricanes etc). SC and Myrtle Beach have historically always been in the path of many. The difference, those courses have been maintained and sustained each and every blow. It’s like playing on carpet there. I’ve brought up the MB comparison before on previous threads on this topic. Interesting their courses also share the El Niño weather patterns. Go figure!

[BrianL99]

I also lived in MB for a bit....back when there were over 125 courses on the Grand Strand. People in TV love to say how immune they are to natural disasters (ie; hurricanes etc). SC and Myrtle Beach have historically always been in the path of many. The difference, those courses have been maintained and sustained each and every blow. It’s like playing on carpet there. I’ve brought up the MB comparison before on previous threads on this topic. Interesting their courses also share the El Niño weather patterns. Go figure!

Here's what people don't get.

If you want to move your greens from 9 on the Stimpmeter to 10 on the Stimpmeter, it's easy ... figure about another $5000-$10,000 per green in maintenance cost.

If you want your TV Course to look like The Dunes in Myrtle Beach, add $450,000 - $500,000 in maintenance cost ... maybe more.

Want TV courses to be as well conditioned as Augusta National? No problem. Add $3,000,000 per course to the budget.

The same things are true, as it relates to the number of rounds played. You can maintain a course for $30/round or you can maintain one for $100/round. Whichever # you choose, is then driven by the number of rounds played.

Maintenance costs are directly attributable to the number of rounds played (not that there aren't other factors, but all things being equal, the # of rounds drives maintenance costs).

[Shipping up to Boston]

Here's what people don't get.

If you want to move your greens from 9 on the Stimpmeter to 10 on the Stimpmeter, it's easy ... figure about another $5000-$10,000 per green in maintenance cost.

If you want your TV Course to look like The Dunes in Myrtle Beach, add $450,000 - $500,000 in maintenance cost ... maybe more.

Want TV courses to be as well conditioned as Augusta National? No problem. Add $3,000,000 per course to the budget.

The same things are true, as it relates to the number of rounds played. You can maintain a course for $30/round or you can maintain one for $100/round. Whichever # you choose, is then driven by the number of rounds played.

Maintenance costs are directly attributable to the number of rounds played (not that there aren't other factors, but all things being equal, the # of rounds drives maintenance costs).

Maybe they should just admit that this is as good as it gets.....then all the comparisons/complaints will end. You know how well bond and fee talk goes on this forum. I think for the most part these are nice, serviceable tracks in TV. Under your premise and price point, rounds played etc, they should be able to stay that way consistently.....without capital expenditure type upgrades.

[TomSpasm]

I noticed the Traqmatz leading onto t-boxes when I played El Campeon at Mission Inn last week. Sounds like an expensive option not really suitable for $4 golf.

The lack of detail in the report was annoying. There was reference to TifDwarf greens having more problems than others, but it wasn't noted which courses have that and which don't. And trees? Heron has some trees, but several others that went bad don't have trees that shade any greens. And the main picture they showed of trees was on the right side of the fairway at Silver Lake #2.

And I couldn't help but think of Mike Pence when the author, referring to Mitch Leininger, said "His pivotal role in keeping management companies focused, managing member expectations, and preparing for future renovations and projects is crucial to maintaining these golf courses. His efforts should be recognized as monumental in accomplishing these tasks."

[SHIBUMI]

Lotta chatter......thoughts... in no particular order

All executive courses must have golf car paths around the whole course to minimize compaction. Handicap cars okay. Fairways on exec courses are like teats on a bull, look nice
but non functional.

Obviously the executive course greens were not built to USGA specs. They lack proper drainage and possibly not enough loam used.

Fairways on championship courses will always be preferred lie areas........no big deal.......
they are fine as stand

It's all about the greens. A true greenskeeper knows every golf course and every green acts differently from a growth and need perspective. If you treat them all the same you are asking for problems at some point. And those problems don't happen overnight, so who is watching. Pro's are not greenskeepers, turf managers are. Again, a green doesn't get crusty overnight.

Regardless of El Niño or El bozo, the greenskeeper adjusts cultural practices accordingly. Regardless of El Niño or El blamo, the greenskeeper understands if theirs no air flow or sunlight issues and adjust accordingly. What we have here is cookie cutter maintenance. Similar to the maintenance on your lawn. And thats why problems will always arise.

Solutions, redo greens to usga specs..........get more boots on the ground, qualified greenskeeper with less courses to monitor and to watch and analyzing conditions daily. It may cost more, BUT,
you won't have to redo courses every so many years.

My biggest fear is that USGA Specs were not used when the greens were built. Time to make up for that. And adjust cultural practices for each course as determined by its peccadillo's. No more cookie cutter maintenance practices.






A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More... (https://www.gazettenewsthevillages.com/usga-details-issues-facing-golf-course-conditions/)

[jnsbill]

90% plus are Par 3's - you are supposed to hit the green if not you are penalized so leave the "fairways" alone waste of money put it elsewhere
Tee Boxes again 90% plus of the golfers use a tee so do we care if they are PGA quality?
save some more money
The Greens this where the $$$ should be spent - weeds - bare spots - etc
How many courses are currently closed? 8-9-10? The real question is how many should be closed because the greens are deplorable?
The Report Card is a JOKE
And when a course is "rebuilt" we throw out some new plants and some of those cute white boulders - Waste Of Money
And the New Sand - its very pretty but nobody plays out of the sand - more wasted money!
Speaking of "rebuilt" courses Chula Vista is closed for rebuilding wasnt it rebuilt 2-3 years ago???
Mitch you should be ashamed of yourself
Rant Over

[BrianL99]

Lotta chatter......thoughts... in no particular order

....

Obviously the executive course greens were not built to USGA specs. They lack proper drainage and possibly not enough loam used.

...

Pro's are not greenskeepers, turf managers are. Again, a green doesn't get crusty overnight.


Solutions, redo greens to usga specs..........get more boots on the ground, qualified greenskeeper with less courses to monitor and to watch and analyzing conditions daily. It may cost more, BUT, you won't have to redo courses every so many years.

My biggest fear is that USGA Specs were not used when the greens were built. Time to make up for that. And adjust cultural practices for each course as determined by its peccadillo's. No more cookie cutter maintenance practices.

At the PWAC meeting a couple of weeks ago, Mitch Leininger said he thought the Executive Course greens were built to USGA specs. Upon further review, it seems that some are and some aren't. Some are straight "push up" greens.

According to the District, the "renovation" contracts all specify USGA Greens. I've seen the standards and I'm not convinced we're getting what we're paying for. I have spoken to the District and they've gone out of their way to listen, comment and perhaps consider tightening up their specs in the future.

As you know, you can build greens to Augusta National specs, and if you don't take care of them, they're not going to last. Rebuilding golf courses every 10-12 years (which is now the official cycle per the District), is the craziest thing I've ever heard. How many times did you guys "rebuild" Pocasset? Course maintenance in a place like TV is a 365 day a year challenge for professionals. The mow/fertilize/rebuild process is flawed.

Regarding your comment about PGA Professionals:

Apparently, the Golf Professionals in TV are also tasked as "Executive Golf course renovation design consultants and construction managers". I wrote a letter to the District last week and made the claim that "PGA Professionals manage golf, not construction and/or design". While most PGA Professionals are knowledgable, they're not agronomists, designers or construction managers.

[Scbang]

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

1000% agreed. No study needed. No excuses warranted. Just copy what you do for Amberwood then we'll all be so happy!

Cheers!

[SHIBUMI]

Wow! Thats a lot of hats to wear.............When I asked the owner of Quashnet Valley about a redesign architect he said to me, Don't you know how to draw!!!! Some of us older pro's were pro/superintendents but that was another era. Commenting on design, okay, but, on construction, very very limited pro knowledge.

Do you really think Arnold Palmer commented on construction? Design maybe........I guess Nancy Lopez must have been the one.


At the PWAC meeting a couple of weeks ago, Mitch Leininger said he thought the Executive Course greens were built to USGA specs. Upon further review, it seems that some are and some aren't. Some are straight "push up" greens.

According to the District, the "renovation" contracts all specify USGA Greens. I've seen the standards and I'm not convinced we're getting what we're paying for. I have spoken to the District and they've gone out of their way to listen, comment and perhaps consider tightening up their specs in the future.

As you know, you can build greens to Augusta National specs, and if you don't take care of them, they're not going to last. Rebuilding golf courses every 10-12 years (which is now the official cycle per the District), is the craziest thing I've ever heard. How many times did you guys "rebuild" Pocasset? Course maintenance in a place like TV is a 365 day a year challenge for professionals. The mow/fertilize/rebuild process is flawed.

Regarding your comment about PGA Professionals:

Apparently, the Golf Professionals in TV are also tasked as "Executive Golf course renovation design consultants and construction managers". I wrote a letter to the District last week and made the claim that "PGA Professionals manage golf, not construction and/or design". While most PGA Professionals are knowledgable, they're not agronomists, designers or construction managers.

[BrianL99]

Do you really think Arnold Palmer commented on construction? Design maybe........I guess Nancy Lopez must have been the one.


Arnie showed up & hit a drive off #1 on Laurel Valley ... the plaque is in the fairway. Ed Seay probably did the design concept & some kid in the office did the plans. Not bad for $1,000,000.

[SHIBUMI]

Good work if you can get it!!!!!! However, I believe several courses in Orlando use the Arnold Palmer Maintenance Group, Disney and maybe Orange County.


Arnie showed up & hit a drive off #1 on Laurel Valley ... the plaque is in the fairway. Ed Seay probably did the design concept & some kid in the office did the plans. Not bad for $1,000,000.

[thelegges]

I agree, to an extent.

That said, not every sport nor sport venue, is appropriate for adaptation to everyone's needs. The theory of "inclusiveness" is fine, until it's carried to the extremes.

Wheelchair racers shouldn't be racing in marathons, along side the folks who are actually "running".

Golfers who are riding all over a small, confined golf course in vehicles, should perhaps be playing on a "field" (course), built to accommodate such use, not one built for folks who are more mobile.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Have you ever been to marathons that have wheels? Take Run Disney (we get there at 2am for the cheer volunteer section) not at any time is a wheeled participant interfering with a runner.

Chairs, or custom adapted bikes, then strollers with all types of challenged and paraplegics, from young adults to some in their 90s at start line first. Followed by police Officers on bikes. All are across the finish line, 20-30 minutes prior to any runner.

According to your thoughts not every sport venue is appropriate for adaptation for handicap, and shouldn’t be allowed to participate because sports shouldn’t be carried to the extreme.

I am so glad you were elsewhere last week, when I had the privilege to play golf with a young man on a single rider. He was in his 40s, lost a leg and arm fighting for his country. He was fitted with bionic prosthesis.

At the shack he immediately apologized that he would slow me down, and effect my game. My return comment, no worries I taught 6-10 year olds summer golf, playing with you will be a pleasure.

I am thankful that the golf industry has made equipment to accommodate anyone who would like to enjoy the game of golf, or any sport for that matter.

Sorry you feel not all sports should be adapted, and those in TV that are health challenged should play golf in fields.

You should thank God every day that a stroke, or accident will never impact your life, to the extent you speak of, to spend the rest of your days playing in a cow pasture.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Have you ever been to marathons that have wheels? Take Run Disney (we get there at 2am for the cheer volunteer section) not at any time is a wheeled participant interfering with a runner.

Chairs, or custom adapted bikes, then strollers with all types of challenged and paraplegics, from young adults to some in their 90s at start line first. Followed by police Officers on bikes. All are across the finish line, 20-30 minutes prior to any runner.

According to your thoughts not every sport venue is appropriate for adaptation for handicap, and shouldn’t be allowed to participate because sports shouldn’t be carried to the extreme.

I am so glad you were elsewhere last week, when I had the privilege to play golf with a young man on a single rider. He was in his 40s, lost a leg and arm fighting for his country. He was fitted with bionic prosthesis.

At the shack he immediately apologized that he would slow me down, and effect my game. My return comment, no worries I taught 6-10 year olds summer golf, playing with you will be a pleasure.

I am thankful that the golf industry has made equipment to accommodate anyone who would like to enjoy the game of golf, or any sport for that matter.

Sorry you feel not all sports should be adapted, and those in TV that are health challenged should play golf in fields.

You should thank God every day that a stroke, or accident will ever impact your life, to the extent you speak of, to spend the rest of your days playing in a cow pasture.

It’s really amazing how people interpret another’s post. He’s entitled to his opinion. He can speak for himself but your post is an attempt at shaming him...and also a veil threat at his future health IMO. Remind me not to book any appointments in your practice Doc! I love and attend adaptive sports events...especially at my kids schools. It’s exciting and well attended by students and parents. Had the opportunity to ski in NH with an individual with adaptive skis and was blown away by the skill level and fluidity. I can understand some may have limited experience/interaction with that community....but that being the case doesn’t make one against their advances into the mainstream. I read his post differently than you, having followed his intelligent, thoughtful and constructive posts in the past....I believe his intentions were without prejudice or malice to the community

[jimjamuser]

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More... (https://www.gazettenewsthevillages.com/usga-details-issues-facing-golf-course-conditions/)
The article mentions increased humidity in the air and increased clouds. I hate to say it but that is the big picture called planet warming. Increased CO2 from vehicle tailpipes cause this problem, which no one wants to talk about or about the OBVIOUS solution. I think it is almost humorous that it takes an expert to come here to talk about what scientists say is happening worldwide. And it keeps increasing for the last 5 years. They might as well have given me the MONEY for the consulting.

[jimjamuser]

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
If planet warming continues (which it will) the only grass that would be completely resistant would be Astro (artificial) TURF. And , at least, it would NOT require water and fertilizer. "Walking only" is probably a good idea but that won't stop the additional humidity and the increased cloudy days, which the "EXPERT" said was the major problem.

[golfing eagles]

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

Exactly!!!! Which is why I can't believe the USGA even referenced El Nino in their report---what a joke. And trees????---What trees????? In general, Florida courses have the least number of trees in the golfing world (except Dubai). The only defense on a Florida course is usually just sand and water. The exception might be Copperhead, but that course is in excellent condition.

I'm not an agronomist, but I would think the causes of bad conditions here are

1) lack of supervision of the maintenance crews, couple with perhaps a poor understanding of how to maintain a golf course.
2) Excessive play with little rest for a course, but that coupled with the way exec "golfers" abuse the course
3) If true, a system that rewards coming in under budget.

[jimjamuser]

The removal of the trees was what I felt was a lousy excuse. Most great golf courses have beautiful trees throughout. I urge any management who might read this thread to reconsider that aspect. We know the grass will not be lush in those areas but at least we aren’t playing in a desert devoid of trees and a bit of shade.
Agreed, but those "great golf courses" are mostly up north with different grasses and different climate conditions. Florida is an island which is now (last 5 years ) surrounded by record HEATED water.

[BrianL99]

It’s really amazing how people interpret another’s post. He’s entitled to his opinion. He can speak for himself but your post is an attempt at shaming him...and also a veil threat at his future health IMO. Remind me not to book any appointments in your practice Doc! I love and attend adaptive sports events...especially at my kids schools. It’s exciting and well attended by students and parents. Had the opportunity to ski in NH with an individual with adaptive skis and was blown away by the skill level and fluidity. I can understand some may have limited experience/interaction with that community....but that being the case doesn’t make one against their advances into the mainstream. I read his post differently than you, having followed his intelligent, thoughtful and constructive posts in the past....I believe his intentions were without prejudice or malice to the community

Thanks for the defense, but I didn't respond to that post, because it's not worthy of a response. It was a complete and utter distortion of my post.

I'm involved in a bit of a controversy right now, at a country club. They've planning on renovating their clubhouse and trying to find every angle under the sun, to avoid compliance with handicap accessibility regulations. I told them that not only are they legally and ethically wrong, they should be embarrassed to even suggest they're not willing to provide accessibility.

The other side of the coin, there are limits to "reasonably accommodation".

While playing golf yesterday, I was thinking ... the next time I look at TOTV, someone will be attacking me about my post. The analogy that came to mind, is:

Suppose in their infinite wisdom, The Villages decided to create a "beach" at Lake Sumter (alligators and reality aside) and wanted to place a "floating swimming/diving raft" in the middle of the lake.

Would they be obligated to build a "pedestrian bridge" to the diving raft? I think not.

What if they opted to provide a pedestrian bridge? In that case, they are 100% obligated to provide a bridge that is in compliance with all accessibility regulations.

The law (or ethics, nor common sense) dictates that everyone has to be accommodated, in a way that makes their physical capabilities, consistent will someone else's. If that was the case, the NBA would have to two hoops at each end of the court. One for the "real basketball players" and one for the guys over 5'5", who got booted out of Jockey Training School and decided to play in the NBA, instead.

"Being old" is not considered a disability under ADA. Entitled jerks have manipulated ADA/Disability regulations, to the detriment of those who it was designed to help. In TV, it seems anyone who's ever seen a Doctor, can get themselves a pass to drive their golf cart anywhere they want to take it. That's just plain wrong in my opinion.

If you have a legitimate disability that keeps you from playing golf, get yourself a solo-rider, adaptive golf cart to play golf or rent one at the course. That's what they're designed for. Every course at TV has one to rent. If the demand was there, they'd buy more.

[golfing eagles]

The article mentions increased humidity in the air and increased clouds. I hate to say it but that is the big picture called planet warming. Increased CO2 from vehicle tailpipes cause this problem, which no one wants to talk about or about the OBVIOUS solution. I think it is almost humorous that it takes an expert to come here to talk about what scientists say is happening worldwide. And it keeps increasing for the last 5 years. They might as well have given me the MONEY for the consulting.

Now THAT is truly hilarious :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

Agreed, but those "great golf courses" are mostly up north with different grasses and different climate conditions. Florida is an island which is now (last 5 years ) surrounded by record HEATED water.

Wow! This gets funnier and funnier.:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[BrianL99]

If planet warming continues (which it will) the only grass that would be completely resistant would be Astro (artificial) TURF. And , at least, it would NOT require water and fertilizer.

One has to admire your dedication to your cause.

I'd be all in on astro-turf golf courses, other than the nasty chemicals used to create that stuff are driving the earth's temperature through the roof already. I was thinking of going back up north for a while, but I just checked. The temperature at my home in NH is a sweltering 55 degrees today. Damn global warming.

[jimjamuser]

Follow the Money!!! Chris Neff's consulting fees were paid by The Villages.

Executive Leadership employed by The Villages who are responsible for Golf Course Management are Replaced! Mitch Leininger, who is The Villages executive responsible for Golf Course Maintenance should be FIRED for the failure of his organization to maintain golf courses. His failure is costing Village residents many millions of dollars, so his replacement(s) must (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. Some Executive Golf Courses are in great shape, which demonstrates that with the right leadership, golf course conditions can be properly maintained within the current budget. Also, it's nice to see that nobody is buying the lies about the weather causing golf course deterioration.
There is NO POINT in firing Mitch Leininger because NO human can stop the increased moisture coming from the Gulf and Oceans that surround Florida, which are much WARMER in the last 5 years. He can't stop the clouds or the moisture.

[dewilson58]

There is NO POINT in firing Mitch Leininger because NO human can stop the increased moisture coming from the Gulf and Oceans that surround Florida, which are much WARMER in the last 5 years. He can't stop the clouds or the moisture.

:what:

[BrianL99]

The article mentions increased humidity in the air and increased clouds. I hate to say it but that is the big picture called planet warming. Increased CO2 from vehicle tailpipes cause this problem, which no one wants to talk about or about the OBVIOUS solution. I think it is almost humorous that it takes an expert to come here to talk about what scientists say is happening worldwide. And it keeps increasing for the last 5 years. They might as well have given me the MONEY for the consulting.

I know I'm going to regret this, but you deserve a forum for your ideas, like anyone else.

I'm with you on CO2 from tail pipes, especially inefficient gas golf carts in a confined environment like TV. I'm all in on Electric Golf Carts.

So how do you propose we generate the electricity, to power all those EV's and prevent them from spewing all that CO2 into the atmosphere?

[Shipping up to Boston]

If planet warming continues (which it will) the only grass that would be completely resistant would be Astro (artificial) TURF. And , at least, it would NOT require water and fertilizer. "Walking only" is probably a good idea but that won't stop the additional humidity and the increased cloudy days, which the "EXPERT" said was the major problem.

Let us all know when you want to be taken seriously.....

Synthetic Turf is HAZARDOUS — Beyond Plastics - Working To End Single-Use Plastic Pollution (https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.beyondplastics.org/fact-sheets/synthetic-turf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi3q6TPh4aGAxUPFlkFHTrODGoQFnoECAEQAw&usg=AOvVaw08ea5kZwJXc3VKqvCKInXC)

[Teed_Off]

Go nuclear!

[jimjamuser]

One has to admire your dedication to your cause.

I'd be all in on astro-turf golf courses, other than the nasty chemicals used to create that stuff are driving the earth's temperature through the roof already. I was thinking of going back up north for a while, but I just checked. The temperature at my home in NH is a sweltering 55 degrees today. Damn global warming.
I said that about Astro Turf for the greens, not the whole fairways. And maybe better for par 3s. Maybe computer golf for the fairway shots and then outside to use Astro Turf-type grass greens or real grass greens. That would definitely cut down on the wheel traffic damage while playing golf. Actually there are some studies that link baseball players playing for years on Astro Turf to brain cancer. So, it seems like there would FIRST need to be found a plastic grass carpet that did NOT give off any harmful chemicals into the air.
.....I merely tried to add to the discussion things that I am familiar with like the science of the change in climate and how it could affect even such an unlikely thing as golf course conditions. But, remember that Florida is special. It is an island surrounded by HOT water. And that affects Florida climate, which affects Florida golf course grass.
.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

[jimjamuser]

I know I'm going to regret this, but you deserve a forum for your ideas, like anyone else.

I'm with you on CO2 from tail pipes, especially inefficient gas golf carts in a confined environment like TV. I'm all in on Electric Golf Carts.

So how do you propose we generate the electricity, to power all those EV's and prevent them from spewing all that CO2 into the atmosphere?
Easily. The idea is that it is better to control pollution at one big, STATIONARY power generating plant than to control it on the moving vehicles and golf carts. Golf Carts have no catalytic converters to reduce pollution, but at the stationary ELECTRIC power generating plants they have HUGE CAPABILITY to stop air pollution.
........I just read that now today, California can generate ALL its power through CLEAN ENERGY. So, I don't just PROPOSE something - Ca. is proving that it can WORK. And in the near future better, and better batteries will be developed. The only thing that prevents this from happening nationwide is that the DYING OIL production conglomerate will fight progress tooth and nail. Already they have succeeded in having US major automobile manufacturers cut back on production of E-vehicles. I can only HOPE that small car manufacturers step in and produce more E-vehicles and E-golf carts.
........Oh, and I expect to hear jokes and guffaws about ANYTHING positive to be said about California. so bring that good stuff on!

[jimjamuser]

Let us all know when you want to be taken seriously.....

Synthetic Turf is HAZARDOUS — Beyond Plastics - Working To End Single-Use Plastic Pollution (https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.beyondplastics.org/fact-sheets/synthetic-turf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi3q6TPh4aGAxUPFlkFHTrODGoQFnoECAEQAw&usg=AOvVaw08ea5kZwJXc3VKqvCKInXC)
True, I did catch myself in that mistake about Astro Turf. Maybe a more healthy substitute can be developed.

[BrianL99]

.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

I'm with you! I hate to admit publicly, but I'm with you on that one.

[JMintzer]

I know I'm going to regret this, but you deserve a forum for your ideas, like anyone else.

I'm with you on CO2 from tail pipes, especially inefficient gas golf carts in a confined environment like TV. I'm all in on Electric Golf Carts.

So how do you propose we generate the electricity, to power all those EV's and prevent them from spewing all that CO2 into the atmosphere?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-10-2017/ZQ-XMC.gif

[JMintzer]

Go nuclear!

I'm waiting until these are available for golf carts...

https://j.gifs.com/mLPLOa.gif

[JMintzer]

Easily. The idea is that it is better to control pollution at one big, STATIONARY power generating plant than to control it on the moving vehicles and golf carts. Golf Carts have no catalytic converters to reduce pollution, but at the stationary ELECTRIC power generating plants they have HUGE CAPABILITY to stop air pollution.
........I just read that now today, California can generate ALL its power through CLEAN ENERGY. So, I don't just PROPOSE something - Ca. is proving that it can WORK. And in the near future better, and better batteries will be developed. The only thing that prevents this from happening nationwide is that the DYING OIL production conglomerate will fight progress tooth and nail. Already they have succeeded in having US major automobile manufacturers cut back on production of E-vehicles. I can only HOPE that small car manufacturers step in and produce more E-vehicles and E-golf carts.
........Oh, and I expect to hear jokes and guffaws about ANYTHING positive to be said about California. so bring that good stuff on!

Then why isn't CA doing it? Why the constant brown outs and instruction NOT to charge your EVs when home, in the evening?

Maybe nowhere near enough power available?

[JMintzer]

I'm with you! I hate to admit publicly, but I'm with you on that one.

Too bad what he said was nonsense...

From thr Google machine" "Batteries can add weight up to 400 pounds! The final weight can depend on how many batteries the golf cart has and the weight of each battery. For instance, a gas-powered golf cart can weigh less than a battery-powered cart. It all depends on the cart; however, in general, a gas-powered golf cart tends to weigh less."

[jimjamuser]

I'm with you! I hate to admit publicly, but I'm with you on that one.
Thank you. I won't tell anyone that you agreed with me. It can stay a secret.

[tophcfa]

Anything not electric is killing our planet and global warming is a disaster. I’m taking that stance because the last time I attempted to correct a moron I had to spend a month in the penalty box.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Anything not electric is killing our planet and global warming is a disaster. I’m taking that stance because the last time I attempted to correct a moron I had to spend a month in the penalty box.

Wow. And I’ve been quietly complaining that I get the ‘Otis the Drunk’ (Andy Griffith Show) treatment with my little nuggets of wisdom on here. A month?! Where are those threads? :a20:

[Papa_lecki]

I said that about Astro Turf for the greens, not the whole fairways. And maybe better for par 3s. Maybe computer golf for the fairway shots and then outside to use Astro Turf-type grass greens or real grass greens. That would definitely cut down on the wheel traffic damage while playing golf. Actually there are some studies that link baseball players playing for years on Astro Turf to brain cancer. So, it seems like there would FIRST need to be found a plastic grass carpet that did NOT give off any harmful chemicals into the air.
.....I merely tried to add to the discussion things that I am familiar with like the science of the change in climate and how it could affect even such an unlikely thing as golf course conditions. But, remember that Florida is special. It is an island surrounded by HOT water. And that affects Florida climate, which affects Florida golf course grass.
.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

I’d rather have the temperatures rise 0.5 degrees than Glioblastoma (brain cancer)
Artificial turf potentially linked to cancer deaths of six Phillies ball players – report | Cancer | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/10/phillies-ball-players-cancer-artifical-turf)

[BrianL99]

I’d rather have the temperatures rise 0.5 degrees than Glioblastoma (brain cancer)
Artificial turf potentially linked to cancer deaths of six Phillies ball players – report | Cancer | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/10/phillies-ball-players-cancer-artifical-turf)

Maybe TV should eliminate the Executive Courses and replace them with Virtual Golf, so we can all be safe from El Nino, global warming and the proposed artificial turf solution.

[golfing eagles]

I said that about Astro Turf for the greens, not the whole fairways. And maybe better for par 3s. Maybe computer golf for the fairway shots and then outside to use Astro Turf-type grass greens or real grass greens. That would definitely cut down on the wheel traffic damage while playing golf. Actually there are some studies that link baseball players playing for years on Astro Turf to brain cancer. So, it seems like there would FIRST need to be found a plastic grass carpet that did NOT give off any harmful chemicals into the air.
.....I merely tried to add to the discussion things that I am familiar with like the science of the change in climate and how it could affect even such an unlikely thing as golf course conditions. But, remember that Florida is special. It is an island surrounded by HOT water. And that affects Florida climate, which affects Florida golf course grass.
.........It seems that many golfing experts have many different solutions to the change in golf course grass. Strangely one solution that was proposed (but said to NOT be possible to implement) was to keep the golf carts off the course and only allow walking. Strangely, the reduced use of GAS golf carts would have a double advantage because of less weight on the grass AND less CO2, which HOLDS in the reflected Solar HEAT.

Uh huh.

[golfing eagles]

Thank you. I won't tell anyone that you agreed with me. It can stay a secret.

Sarcasm, Sheldon, sarcasm :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Two Bills]

Save a fortune in cost and maintenance.
Get rid of sand traps on all Executive courses.

[BrianL99]

Save a fortune in cost and maintenance.
Get rid of sand traps on all Executive courses.

Or convert them to "waste areas" and eliminate 90% of the maintenance.

Pine Barrens at World Woods was in Top 100 in the USA and without a single "bunker" or "sand trap" ... only "waste areas". Saved them a small fortune.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Or convert them to "waste areas" and eliminate 90% of the maintenance.

Pine Barrens at World Woods was in Top 100 in the USA and without a single "bunker" or "sand trap" ... only "waste areas". Saved them a small fortune.

Agree
Maybe not on all the courses but definitely the ‘problem’ ones

[jimjamuser]

Anything not electric is killing our planet and global warming is a disaster. I’m taking that stance because the last time I attempted to correct a moron I had to spend a month in the penalty box.
That in itself is EXTREMELY HUMOROUS because the very calling of another TOTV member a "moron" is against the rules and intent of TOTV. I doesn't bother me except that it lowers all the dialogue to the level of the 7th grade level of debate. Debate is ALWAYS good and I welcome it when my IDEAS are challenged. NOBODY welcomes a situation when they are challenged at a personal level for ZERO redeeming value !!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

Maybe TV should eliminate the Executive Courses and replace them with Virtual Golf, so we can all be safe from El Nino, global warming and the proposed artificial turf solution.
Golf seems to have a DECLINING population due to the demographics of AGING baby boomers. Younger people prefer to find their own sports or amusements, which explains the RAPID rise of Pickle's ball. Probably many Pickle players are former golfers that got tired of the BORING NON-STIMULATION of the time spent going from drive to fairway shot. The Pickled crowd has CONTINUOUS action and an EASY game to learn. Also, the courts are FREE, as in costing nothing - less time cost and less money costs.
.......It is also pretty humorous to me that "mother nature" (due to warmer air holding more moisture) has decided to make the FLORIDA golf greens more DIFFICULT to maintain.
.......Personally, I think that par 3 courses better match the mentality today of young retired people, which is quick rewards for time spent. It also matches the mentality of TV Landers that have busy lives and want to get to water volleyball after a par 3 and not the time occupied by a "PAR ZILLION".
..........Also, the Florida summer HEAT means playing golf mostly in the morning. But, with indoor computer golf, players could sharpen their skills indoors -- and maybe combined with a brief putting time in the HEAT outdoors. Just thinking out loud.

[Shipping up to Boston]

That in itself is EXTREMELY HUMOROUS because the very calling of another TOTV member a "moron" is against the rules and intent of TOTV. I doesn't bother me except that it lowers all the dialogue to the level of the 7th grade level of debate. Debate is ALWAYS good and I welcome it when my IDEAS are challenged. NOBODY welcomes a situation when they are challenged at a personal level for ZERO redeeming value !!!!!!

Maybe we should just have a varsity level ToTV....for the ones that post accurate and well thought out...and supported through facts type forum......and a JV level log in for those that just want to see their name in lights and see how much of their nonsense and jibberish sticks to the fellow uninformed and gullible membership. Just a thought

[BrianL99]

..........Also, the Florida summer HEAT means playing golf mostly in the morning. But, with indoor computer golf, players could sharpen their skills indoors -- and maybe combined with a brief putting time in the HEAT outdoors. Just thinking out loud.

Within 10-15 years, more golf will be played indoors, than outdoors. It's taking over the golf world. Those who can't see it, are mired in the past. Today's generation wants virtual stimulation, in a manufactured environment, with minimal exertion or effort.



Debate is ALWAYS good and I welcome it when my IDEAS are challenged. NOBODY welcomes a situation when they are challenged at a personal level for ZERO redeeming value !!!!!!


I can't imagine why anyone would ever challenge your ideas or view of the world? I will concede, on the very rare occasion I've seen it occur on TOTV, you're always a gentleman about it.

[JMintzer]

Golf seems to have a DECLINING population due to the demographics of AGING baby boomers. Younger people prefer to find their own sports or amusements, which explains the RAPID rise of Pickle's ball. Probably many Pickle players are former golfers that got tired of the BORING NON-STIMULATION of the time spent going from drive to fairway shot. The Pickled crowd has CONTINUOUS action and an EASY game to learn. Also, the courts are FREE, as in costing nothing - less time cost and less money costs.

Except it's not true...

"Despite predictions of golf's downfall due to the pandemic, the sport has actually managed to stay on course. Literally, on course. In early January 2023, the National Golf Foundation (NGF) revealed that the number of on-course golfers was up again by 500.000 players, bringing the total to 25.6 million."

[BrianL99]

Maybe we should just have a varsity level ToTV....for the ones that post accurate and well thought out...and supported through facts type forum......and a JV level log in for those that just want to see their name in lights and see how much of their nonsense and jibberish sticks to the fellow uninformed and gullible membership. Just a thought

Championship Level & Executive course levels?

[UpNorth]

Save a fortune in cost and maintenance.
Get rid of sand traps on all Executive courses.

Grass bunkers would be just fine. Ever try to chip out of one? Not easy. Unfortunately, The Villages seems to have trouble growing grass these days.

[jimjamuser]

Maybe we should just have a varsity level ToTV....for the ones that post accurate and well thought out...and supported through facts type forum......and a JV level log in for those that just want to see their name in lights and see how much of their nonsense and jibberish sticks to the fellow uninformed and gullible membership. Just a thought
It seems like the idea here is that the "Varsity level" section of the forum would reward the ideas expressed by a majority of the members of the forum. Then the LESS typical and more unique ideas would be expressed in the "JV" forum level. To site an example that admittedly is STRETCHED to prove a point.......imagine Christopher Columbus being in the "JV" section and screaming, NO, NO the world is NOT flat like you "Varsity level" people want it to be.
.....America would have been discovered 100 years after Columbus died and the Native Americans had grown so strong by then that they were able to resist the European invasion. They would then control the history of North America.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Championship Level & Executive course levels?

Maintained.....and less maintained
Perfect analogy

[Shipping up to Boston]

It seems like the idea here is that the "Varsity level" section of the forum would reward the ideas expressed by a majority of the members of the forum. Then the LESS typical and more unique ideas would be expressed in the "JV" forum level. To site an example that admittedly is STRETCHED to prove a point.......imagine Christopher Columbus being in the "JV" section and screaming, NO, NO the world is NOT flat like you "Varsity level" people want it to be.
.....America would have been discovered 100 years after Columbus died and the Native Americans had grown so strong by then that they were able to resist the European invasion. They would then control the history of North America.

Yeah....just like that
Someone’s been hanging out with Kyrie Irving a little too much! Smh

[jimjamuser]

Grass bunkers would be just fine. Ever try to chip out of one? Not easy. Unfortunately, The Villages seems to have trouble growing grass these days.
"The Villages seems to have trouble growing grass these days" takes us back to post #51, which goes a long way to explaining the 'WHY" behind the grass growing difficulty.

[jimjamuser]

Yeah....just like that
Someone’s been hanging out with Kyrie Irving a little too much! Smh
Interesting, not sure about what Mr. Irving's off court views are.....I know his team is still alive in the playoffs. I know that for a short guy (by NBA standards) he seems to function well under the basket when even in a crowd. I will have to Google him as to his off court persona.

[BrianL99]

.....America would have been discovered 100 years after Columbus died and the Native Americans had grown so strong by then that they were able to resist the European invasion. They would then control the history of North America.


Probably not, as the Native Americans' first exposure to gun powder, was likely a result of Columbus' visit to the "new world".

[jimjamuser]

Probably not, as the Native Americans' first exposure to gun powder, was likely a result of Columbus' visit to the "new world".
Well I can answer that with some very interesting Historical facts. The Native American warrior was NOT at a real DISADVANTAGE from being without gunpowder. A skillful plains warrior with a bow and arrow could shoot over 5 arrows quicker than an Army infantry man could reload his SINGLE-SHOT rifle military Springfield rifle. The Native American tactics were to spring out of an ambush position and ride around encircling the standing stationary infantry troops. In that scenario the Native Americans had all the advantages. The US Army officers were the only ones with rapid firing repeater pistols which were no more accurate than their oppositions bows and arrows. People think a bow and arrow is slow to operate, but NOT so in the hands of the plains Natives. The BOW reloaded way faster than the single-shot army rifle. A Native American on their well-trained horses (ponys) were hard moving targets to hit by the stationary US solders single-shot rifles. They had the tactics and they knew the area. The US Army had many disadvantages.
........The population of the Native Americans suffered because of diseases from Europe that they had NO built up immunity against.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Well I can answer that with some very interesting Historical facts. The Native American warrior was NOT at a real DISADVANTAGE from being without gunpowder. A skillful plains warrior with a bow and arrow could shoot over 5 arrows quicker than an Army infantry man could reload his SINGLE-SHOT rifle military Springfield rifle. The Native American tactics were to spring out of an ambush position and ride around encircling the standing stationary infantry troops. In that scenario the Native Americans had all the advantages. The US Army officers were the only ones with rapid firing repeater pistols which were no more accurate than their oppositions bows and arrows. People think a bow and arrow is slow to operate, but NOT so in the hands of the plains Natives. The BOW reloaded way faster than the single-shot army rifle. A Native American on their well-trained horses (ponys) were hard moving targets to hit by the stationary US solders single-shot rifles. They had the tactics and they knew the area. The US Army had many disadvantages.
........The population of the Native Americans suffered because of diseases from Europe that they had NO built up immunity against.

Did the USGA hide the above information in their report!

[Shipping up to Boston]

Well I can answer that with some very interesting Historical facts. The Native American warrior was NOT at a real DISADVANTAGE from being without gunpowder. A skillful plains warrior with a bow and arrow could shoot over 5 arrows quicker than an Army infantry man could reload his SINGLE-SHOT rifle military Springfield rifle. The Native American tactics were to spring out of an ambush position and ride around encircling the standing stationary infantry troops. In that scenario the Native Americans had all the advantages. The US Army officers were the only ones with rapid firing repeater pistols which were no more accurate than their oppositions bows and arrows. People think a bow and arrow is slow to operate, but NOT so in the hands of the plains Natives. The BOW reloaded way faster than the single-shot army rifle. A Native American on their well-trained horses (ponys) were hard moving targets to hit by the stationary US solders single-shot rifles. They had the tactics and they knew the area. The US Army had many disadvantages.
........The population of the Native Americans suffered because of diseases from Europe that they had NO built up immunity against.

Maybe when the next USGA report on executive courses is released....we can end on the Louisiana Purchase!

[tophcfa]

Well I can answer that with some very interesting Historical facts. The Native American warrior was NOT at a real DISADVANTAGE from being without gunpowder. A skillful plains warrior with a bow and arrow could shoot over 5 arrows quicker than an Army infantry man could reload his SINGLE-SHOT rifle military Springfield rifle. The Native American tactics were to spring out of an ambush position and ride around encircling the standing stationary infantry troops. In that scenario the Native Americans had all the advantages. The US Army officers were the only ones with rapid firing repeater pistols which were no more accurate than their oppositions bows and arrows. People think a bow and arrow is slow to operate, but NOT so in the hands of the plains Natives. The BOW reloaded way faster than the single-shot army rifle. A Native American on their well-trained horses (ponys) were hard moving targets to hit by the stationary US solders single-shot rifles. They had the tactics and they knew the area. The US Army had many disadvantages.
........The population of the Native Americans suffered because of diseases from Europe that they had NO built up immunity against.

The thread is about issues effecting golf course conditions. Please start a new thread about Native American Warriors, if that’s what you want to discuss, so the people that are interested in the topic of this thread won’t have to waste their time.

[ThirdOfFive]

One thing I've wondered...why not turn a few of the Executive courses, particularly the ones with longer holes, into links courses? Less upkeep on those for the simple matter that a lot less ground needs to be mowed and watered. I've played a links course back in Minnesota ("Hidden Creek": my opinion is that they didn't hide the creek anywhere near well enough) and to call it challenging is a huge understatement. My guess is that there are folks here in TV who would enjoy the challenge.

[Shipping up to Boston]

One thing I've wondered...why not turn a few of the Executive courses, particularly the ones with longer holes, into links courses? Less upkeep on those for the simple matter that a lot less ground needs to be mowed and watered. I've played a links course back in Minnesota ("Hidden Creek": my opinion is that they didn't hide the creek anywhere near well enough) and to call it challenging is a huge understatement. My guess is that there are folks here in TV who would enjoy the challenge.

Love the links!
I play a similar course up in Maine....The Links at Outlook in Berwick. Outstanding layout and I agree...a lot easier to maintain

[BrianL99]

One thing I've wondered...why not turn a few of the Executive courses, particularly the ones with longer holes, into links courses? Less upkeep on those for the simple matter that a lot less ground needs to be mowed and watered. I've played a links course back in Minnesota ("Hidden Creek": my opinion is that they didn't hide the creek anywhere near well enough) and to call it challenging is a huge understatement. My guess is that there are folks here in TV who would enjoy the challenge.


Love the links!
I play a similar course up in Maine....The Links at Outlook in Berwick. Outstanding layout and I agree...a lot easier to maintain


How do you build a "Links" golf course, without an ocean?

I've seen a few courses that have tried to replicate the playing conditions of a links course, notable Streamsong, but trust me ... they're nothing like playing Royal County Down or Ballybunion.

BTW, did anyone happen to attend the PWAC Meeting this morning at Seabreeze, that was mostly about the Executive Golf Courses?

There were about 50 people in the audience, along with a representative from each District. It was like student sit-in in Jr. High School, protesting that the new peanut butter in the lunch sandwiches, is chunky style and not smooth. Almost 2 hours of golf talk, without a substantive or knowledgable suggestion or comment ... PWAC reps included. The PWAC reps (in most cases) were woefully unprepared to discuss golf or the District's proposed budget.

At least the majority of District staff comes prepared and listens .... I'm not sure how they find the patience.


The Villages never ceases to amaze me.

[Happydaz]

Well I can answer that with some very interesting Historical facts. The Native American warrior was NOT at a real DISADVANTAGE from being without gunpowder. A skillful plains warrior with a bow and arrow could shoot over 5 arrows quicker than an Army infantry man could reload his SINGLE-SHOT rifle military Springfield rifle. The Native American tactics were to spring out of an ambush position and ride around encircling the standing stationary infantry troops. In that scenario the Native Americans had all the advantages. The US Army officers were the only ones with rapid firing repeater pistols which were no more accurate than their oppositions bows and arrows. People think a bow and arrow is slow to operate, but NOT so in the hands of the plains Natives. The BOW reloaded way faster than the single-shot army rifle. A Native American on their well-trained horses (ponys) were hard moving targets to hit by the stationary US solders single-shot rifles. They had the tactics and they knew the area. The US Army had many disadvantages.
........The population of the Native Americans suffered because of diseases from Europe that they had NO built up immunity against.

Just read a book about the Comanche Indians, the most feared of all the plains Indians, they were able to get off 15 arrows before an infantry man could reload and shoot again. They were the best horsemen and warriors of all the American Indian tribes. Their culture was war and conquest. They stole horses and what ever else they wanted. These indians fought to the death which surprised the American soldiers. The reason was that the Comanche killed all the males and infants and most of the women and children of the tribes they attacked. Any other Indian tribe who fought the Comanche knew this and they fought to the death also if they became trapped or were running interference for their women and children as they were trying to escape. The Comanches held the upper hand until the Texas Rangers came along and they got better firearms and fought like the Indians and things evened up. After the slaughter of the buffalo herds the Indians lost hope and their best source of goods and materials. The army knew this and encouraged the complete decimation of the once magnificent buffalo herds.

[Shipping up to Boston]

How do you build a "Links" golf course, without an ocean?

I've seen a few courses that have tried to replicate the playing conditions of a links course, notable Streamsong, but trust me ... they're nothing like playing Royal County Down or Ballybunion.

BTW, did anyone happen to attend the PWAC Meeting this morning at Seabreeze, that was mostly about the Executive Golf Courses?

There were about 50 people in the audience, along with a representative from each District. It was like student sit-in in Jr. High School, protesting that the new peanut butter in the lunch sandwiches, is chunky style and not smooth. Almost 2 hours of golf talk, without a substantive or knowledgable suggestion or comment ... PWAC reps included. The PWAC reps (in most cases) were woefully unprepared to discuss golf or the District's proposed budget.

At least the majority of District staff comes prepared and listens .... I'm not sure how they find the patience.


The Villages never ceases to amaze me.

The Links in Maine is miles from the ocean. Didn't think that was a prerequisite...especially for a 55+ retirement community?

The latter half of your post reminds me of a congressional hearing! Woefully unprepared and the staff holding up poster boards and whispering in their ears like a ventriloquist!

[BrianL99]

The Links in Maine is miles from the ocean. Didn't think that was a prerequisite...especially for a 55+ retirement community?

The latter half of your post reminds me of a congressional hearing! Woefully unprepared and the staff holding up poster boards and whispering in their ears like a ventriloquist!

True story. I'm in a meeting at the Pentagon, sitting across from Ted Kennedy (about closing Ft. Devens). I listened to him talk for 10 minutes and said to myself, "he's the smartest person I ever met". Unfortunately, his aide had only prepared him with cue cards for 10 minutes & 12 seconds. By 10 minutes & 30 seconds, I figured he'd need help to spell "dog".

[Shipping up to Boston]

True story. I'm in a meeting at the Pentagon, sitting across from Ted Kennedy (about closing Ft. Devens). I listened to him talk for 10 minutes and said to myself, "he's the smartest person I ever met". Unfortunately, his aide had only prepared him with cue cards for 10 minutes & 12 seconds. By 10 minutes & 30 seconds, I figured he'd need help to spell "dog".

So much material there... but never speak ill of the dead. Or something like that!

[tophcfa]

How do you build a "Links" golf course, without an ocean?

Well, Southern Oaks comes to mind. Take a wide open piece of land with very few trees and stick a bunch of flags in the ground. Substitute a Turnpike and some power lines for the ocean and you got something resembling a links course, where the wind is a significant factor effecting play. It certainly doesn’t have the eye appeal of a true links course (or the pot bunkers), but kind of plays like one.

[BrianL99]

In addition to an ocean, I think Southern Oaks is missing most of the other attributes of a true Links Course.

"Links" courses usually rely on "mounds", hills and changes of elevation (dunes) and quirky, difficult greens.

Maybe some similarity to a "heathland" course?

If you would like to play a real "Links Style" course, that doesn't involve an ocean, I think Streamsong Red is the one. BTW, they just announced a Rate drop for FL residents, that I think begins on May 19th. $189 for non-guests, I believe.

5 Different Types of Golf Courses (https://collegeofgolf.keiseruniversity.edu/types-golf-courses-links-parkland-desert/)

Here are the 6 different types of golf courses, explained (https://golf.com/travel/6-types-golf-courses-explained/)

What is Links Golf? (Links Golf Courses, Explained) • Honest Golfers (https://honestgolfers.com/what-is-a-links-course-in-golf/)

[Happydaz]

Sorry about my Indian post reply! I was so excited to talk about the recent book I read I forgot to look at what the real subject was. Maybe the Comanches played golf? Come to think about, don’t some of the golf courses around here resemble the plains of Oklahoma?

[Stu from NYC]

Sorry about my Indian post reply! I was so excited to talk about the recent book I read I forgot to look at what the real subject was. Maybe the Comanches played golf?

The comanches were too busy playing cowboys and Indians

[Shipping up to Boston]

In addition to an ocean, I think Southern Oaks is missing most of the other attributes of a true Links Course.

"Links" courses usually rely on "mounds", hills and changes of elevation (dunes) and quirky, difficult greens.

Maybe some similarity to a "heathland" course?

If you would like to play a real "Links Style" course, that doesn't involve an ocean, I think Streamsong Red is the one. BTW, they just announced a Rate drop for FL residents, that I think begins on May 19th. $189 for non-guests, I believe.

5 Different Types of Golf Courses (https://collegeofgolf.keiseruniversity.edu/types-golf-courses-links-parkland-desert/)

Here are the 6 different types of golf courses, explained (https://golf.com/travel/6-types-golf-courses-explained/)

What is Links Golf? (Links Golf Courses, Explained) • Honest Golfers (https://honestgolfers.com/what-is-a-links-course-in-golf/)

What about Royal St. Cloud in ORL?

[BrianL99]

What about Royal St. Cloud in ORL?

i never heard of it, but looked it up. Looks like they did a decent job.

I'm not huge fan of "manufactured golf courses". The Robert Trent Jones style. He moved everything around, to create what he wanted, as opposed to using what was there (Ferncroft & Ipswich, for example).

I do think they did a great job of "manufacturing" Streamsong, but the whole story of how that came about, lends some credence. It surely isn't a "Links Course" but Coore-Crenshaw did a spectacular job (as always) of creating a masterpiece when they did Red.. (I think the Blue course is awful, but the Black is kind of neat, although different and odd in some ways.)

This thing about "Links" courses when there's no ocean, is a bit like calling the courses in TV, "Championship" courses. I guess you can call 'em whatever you want, it doesn't make it so.

I prefer courses that look like they just naturally arrived, which is why I play Tierra Del Sol most of the time and if I go off campus, I don't go to Juliette Falls, but prefer some place like Black Diamond.

There's some course west of Worcester, MA, where they replicated a bunch of famous holes. I've never played it, but some folks like it. Golf courses are like women. Some guys like .....

... oh nevermind.

(Maybe big doings this week, regarding LIV/PGA. Jimmy Dunne resigned from PGA Policy Board this afternoon. @radaratlas2 says John Henry's plane landed in Teterboro earlier today and Yasir Al-Rumayyan is headed there now.)

[Shipping up to Boston]

i never heard of it, but looked it up. Looks like they did a decent job.

I'm not huge fan of "manufactured golf courses". The Robert Trent Jones style. He moved everything around, to create what he wanted, as opposed to using what was there (Ferncroft & Ipswich, for example).

I do think they did a great job of "manufacturing" Streamsong, but the whole story of how that came about, lends some credence. It surely isn't a "Links Course" but Coore-Crenshaw did a spectacular job (as always) of creating a masterpiece when they did Red.. (I think the Blue course is awful, but the Black is kind of neat, although different and odd in some ways.)

This thing about "Links" courses when there's no ocean, is a bit like calling the courses in TV, "Championship" courses. I guess you can call 'em whatever you want, it doesn't make it so.

I prefer courses that look like they just naturally arrived, which is why I play Tierra Del Sol most of the time and if I go off campus, I don't go to Juliette Falls, but prefer some place like Black Diamond.

There's some course west of Worcester, MA, where they replicated a bunch of famous holes. I've never played it, but some folks like it. Golf courses are like women. Some guys like .....

... oh nevermind.

(Maybe big doings this week, regarding LIV/PGA. Jimmy Dunne resigned from PGA Policy Board this afternoon. @radaratlas2 says John Henry's plane landed in Teterboro earlier today and Yasir Al-Rumayyan is headed there now.)

I heard Rory will be in those meetings as well...

[mntlblok]

I heard Rory will be in those meetings as well...

Then I'm so *confused*! Got the sense that Dunne wanted merger progress and wasn't seeing it with players being the majority on the board. But, Henry's not a player and this sounds like merger progress. No idea where Tiger stands other than being pretty sure that he's against whatever Phil and Greg want. :-) Hearing that Rory and Tiger are now seeing things differently. Saw a suggestion this morning that LIV will end up with the top 50 or so with all the other tours being "feeders" and can see some logic in that. Will Keselowski be at this meeting? :-)

[tophcfa]

There's some course west of Worcester, MA, where they replicated a bunch of famous holes. I've never played it, but some folks like it.)

Hmmmm, our northern home is in western Mass and I’ve been playing golf in that area for a very long time and never heard of that? Some courses in the area I do enjoy include the Ledges, the Ranch, Crump’in Fox, Chicopee, Southampton, Westover, Oak Ridge, Cold Springs, Tekoya, Bas Ridge, Agawam, St. Ann’s, and Wyckoff. Playing Eastern Mountain this afternoon with my wife, not one of my favorites, it’s too easy (referred to as easy mountain), but she likes it so it’s all good.

If you know someone who knows the name of the referenced course, please let me know and I’ll give it a try : )

[Shipping up to Boston]

Hmmmm, our northern home is in western Mass and I’ve been playing golf in that area for a very long time and never heard of that? Some courses in the area I do enjoy include the Ledges, the Ranch, Crump’in Fox, Chicopee, Southampton, Westover, Oak Ridge, Cold Springs, Tekoya, Bas Ridge, Agawam, St. Ann’s, and Wyckoff. Playing Eastern Mountain this afternoon with my wife, not one of my favorites, it’s too easy (referred to as easy mountain), but she likes it so it’s all good.

If you know someone who knows the name of the referenced course, please let me know and I’ll give it a try : )

Red Tail....Devens
Shining Rock...Northbridge

[tophcfa]

Red Tail....Devens
Shining Rock...Northbridge

Thanks, look like nice tracks, but both are east of Worcester and too far off the beaten track for me. The farthest east I’ll travel for a round is to Cold Springs in Belchertown, which takes me quite a bit longer to get to by car than it does to get to Southern Oaks by golf cart in the Villages.

[BrianL99]

Hmmmm, our northern home is in western Mass and I’ve been playing golf in that area for a very long time and never heard of that? Some courses in the area I do enjoy include the Ledges, the Ranch, Crump’in Fox, Chicopee, Southampton, Westover, Oak Ridge, Cold Springs, Tekoya, Bas Ridge, Agawam, St. Ann’s, and Wyckoff. Playing Eastern Mountain this afternoon with my wife, not one of my favorites, it’s too easy (referred to as easy mountain), but she likes it so it’s all good.

If you know someone who knows the name of the referenced course, please let me know and I’ll give it a try : )

I think it's the "Ranch", but I'm not sure. I looked it up and that's the only one I can find close. Does that not have "replica" holes?

I used to play Crupin-Fox occasionally, when Bill Sandri owned it. He also owned Fox Hollow in Trinity (near Tampa), where I was a member, so CF was very inexpensive for me to play. Last few times I played CF, it wasn't in great condition. A couple of years ago, when they started harvesting trees.

One of the coolest golf courses in your area (& they used to have an awesome non-resident membership deal) is The Orchards, which is a Donald Ross design.

I'm sure you know, the old Hampden CC has been transformed into Great Horse and it's quite a place. I played it once back when it was Hampden, because my friend Phil Pittorino (owner of Wedgewood Pines) owned it. The guy who bought it, claims to have spent $50M transforming it and completely redid the entire property.

[BrianL99]

Red Tail....Devens
Shining Rock...Northbridge

Red Tail is a decent track, but the conditions were sometimes spotty. Weird ownership deal up there. A Super they brough in was very sharp, but he left to take over at The International, about 3 months before IGC filed BK. Escalante has kept him on. The head Pro for many years, retired a few years ago and a fiend of mine took over as GM ... he's since left to take over PV.

Shining Rock is different, you'll certainly use all your clubs. Tim Gordon who did the deal to turn Saddle Hill into Hopkinton CC, also did the Shining Rock deal. If I told you who the money guys are, you'd know exactly who they are and you'd laugh.

[BrianL99]

I heard Rory will be in those meetings as well...

Rory is too busy in court.

[Shipping up to Boston]

I think it's the "Ranch", but I'm not sure. I looked it up and that's the only one I can find close. Does that not have "replica" holes?

I used to play Crupin-Fox occasionally, when Bill Sandri owned it. He also owned Fox Hollow in Trinity (near Tampa), where I was a member, so CF was very inexpensive for me to play. Last few times I played CF, it wasn't in great condition. A couple of years ago, when they started harvesting trees.

One of the coolest golf courses in your area (& they used to have an awesome non-resident membership deal) is The Orchards, which is a Donald Ross design.

I'm sure you know, the old Hampden CC has been transformed into Great Horse and it's quite a place. I played it once back when it was Hampden, because my friend Phil Pittorino (owner of Wedgewood Pines) owned it. The guy who bought it, claims to have spent $50M transforming it and completely redid the entire property.

I’m sure you both remember Pleasant Valley CC in Sutton. Three decades of hosting the PGA Bank of Boston tournament. Arnie, Nicklaus and the LPGA had stops there as well. Sorry, just reminiscing!

[tophcfa]

I think it's the "Ranch", but I'm not sure. I looked it up and that's the only one I can find close. Does that not have "replica" holes?

I used to play Crupin-Fox occasionally, when Bill Sandri owned it. He also owned Fox Hollow in Trinity (near Tampa), where I was a member, so CF was very inexpensive for me to play. Last few times I played CF, it wasn't in great condition. A couple of years ago, when they started harvesting trees.

One of the coolest golf courses in your area (& they used to have an awesome non-resident membership deal) is The Orchards, which is a Donald Ross design.

I'm sure you know, the old Hampden CC has been transformed into Great Horse and it's quite a place. I played it once back when it was Hampden, because my friend Phil Pittorino (owner of Wedgewood Pines) owned it. The guy who bought it, claims to have spent $50M transforming it and completely redid the entire property.

The Ranch is a beautiful course that I’ve played many times, but no replica holes there. Interesting story, when playing for the Patriots, TB12 put in an offer to buy a homesite on the course, with a contingency that he could build a private helicopter pad on the property. He was not granted permission and pulled the offer. Crumpin Fox is a great course, as is its sister course, Fox Hopyard in East Haddam, CT near the Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun Casinos. I think Sandri owned the home overlooking the green on the beautiful par 3 16th hole that plays over a large pond? I haven’t played Crumpin in two or three years and wasn’t aware they were harvesting a lot of trees there. The beauty of the trees in the fall, when the leaves change colors, was my favorite time to play there. The last three falls we have been going to our Villages home, where the license plates begin changing colors that time of the year. Never played the Orchards as it’s private and I don’t have connections there. I did go there to watch the women’s US Open many years ago and enjoyed following Annika Sorenstam, a young Michelle Wie, and of course the biggest draw, Natalie Gulbis. Played Hampden a few times several years ago and have heard stories about the huge amount of money put into it transforming it into Great Horse. From what I heard from a reliable friend who played it, it’s nice, but nothing special.

[Shipping up to Boston]

The Ranch is a beautiful course that I’ve played many times, but no replica holes there. Interesting story, when playing for the Patriots, TB12 put in an offer to buy a homesite on the course, with a contingency that he could build a private helicopter pad on the property. He was not granted permission and pulled the offer. Crumpin Fox is a great course, as is its sister course, Fox Hopyard in East Haddam, CT near the Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun Casinos. I haven’t played Crumpin in two or three years and wasn’t aware they were harvesting a lot of trees there. The beauty of the trees in the fall, when the leaves change colors, was my favorite time to play there. The last three falls we have been going to our Villages home, where the license plates begin changing colors that time of the year. Never played the Orchards as it’s private and I don’t have connections there. I did go there to watch the women’s US Open many years ago and enjoyed following Annika Sorenstam, a young Michelle Wie, and of course the biggest draw, Natalie Gulbis. Played Hampden a few times several years ago and have heard stories about the huge amount of money put into it transforming it into Great Horse. From what I heard from a reliable friend who played it, it’s nice, but nothing special.

Funny, Brady was denied in your story but bought acreage from Pine Manor College in Chestnut Hill MA and was given variances to build his manse which abuts Robert Krafts home as well as The Country Club. Ultimately sold the property and moved to FL

[BrianL99]

The Ranch is a beautiful course that I’ve played many times, but no replica holes there. Interesting story, when playing for the Patriots, TB12 put in an offer to buy a homesite on the course, with a contingency that he could build a private helicopter pad on the property. He was not granted permission and pulled the offer. Crumpin Fox is a great course, as is its sister course, Fox Hopyard in East Haddam, CT near the Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun Casinos. I think Sandri owned the home overlooking the green on the beautiful par 3 16th hole that plays over a large pond? I haven’t played Crumpin in two or three years and wasn’t aware they were harvesting a lot of trees there. The beauty of the trees in the fall, when the leaves change colors, was my favorite time to play there. The last three falls we have been going to our Villages home, where the license plates begin changing colors that time of the year. Never played the Orchards as it’s private and I don’t have connections there. I did go there to watch the women’s US Open many years ago and enjoyed following Annika Sorenstam, a young Michelle Wie, and of course the biggest draw, Natalie Gulbis. Played Hampden a few times several years ago and have heard stories about the huge amount of money put into it transforming it into Great Horse. From what I heard from a reliable friend who played it, it’s nice, but nothing special.

Try to find a friend, with connections to The Orchards, it's worth it. Great Horse is worth a one time experience, just to see what excess money can do. I'm told the course isn't much.

I believe Bill's Son in Law, who took over as CEO of Sandri Industries, has taken Fox Hopyard, private.

As you probably know, Bill (Deerfield Academy/Wharton MBA) had a bit of an alcohol problem. You see quite a few gussied up golf carts in TV, but not many like the one Bill cruised in, around Fox Hollow. Fully air-conditioned, with a bar & BBQ grill. Every time you buy Sunoco gas in Western MA, Vermont or Southern NH, you're contributing to the Sandri fortune ... they own them all.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Try to find a friend, with connections to The Orchards, it's worth it. Great Horse is worth a one time experience, just to see what excess money can do. I'm told the course isn't much.

I believe Bill's Son in Law, who took over as CEO of Sandri Industries, has taken Fox Hopyard, private.

As you probably know, Bill (Deerfield Academy/Wharton MBA) had a bit of an alcohol problem. You see quite a few gussied up golf carts in TV, but not many like the one Bill cruised in, around Fox Hollow. Fully air-conditioned, with a bar & BBQ grill. Every time you buy Sunoco gas in Western MA, Vermont or Southern NH, you're contributing to the Sandri fortune ... they own them all.

I use Mobil so I guess you can cross me off the list of enablers! ;)