MLB changes record book

[Rainger99]

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2024/05/28/negro-leagues-statistics-officially-incorporated-into-major-league-record-book/73882293007/)

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

It’s about time

[BrianL99]

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2024/05/28/negro-leagues-statistics-officially-incorporated-into-major-league-record-book/73882293007/)

How very woke.

Why not integrate Para-Olympic statistics into real Olympic records?

Or ... World Football League or Arena Football records into NFL statistics?

Everyone gets a trophy or the world's not fair.

[golfing eagles]

It’s about time

You're right. It's about time we put an end to all of this nonsense. Perhaps the next suggestion will be back pay at the MLB pay scale.

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

It’s about time

[Challenger]

It’s about time

Put on your Kevlar and watch the incoming hate and denial.

[golfing eagles]

It’s about time

Repeating it doesn't make it more valid.

[golfing eagles]

I'm going to write a letter today. In high school I had a tournament winning percentage of 45%, which blows Tiger, Jack, Sam and Tom away. I'll going to ask them to incorporate that record into the PGA statistics, and then pay me $2 million for each win and $4 million for my county championship. And even though there was no FedEx Cup at the time, I would have won it easily, so I'd like $25 million bonus for both my junior and senior years.

[Snakster66]

Negro Leagues were designated as "major leagues" in 2020. So why wouldn't the stats count at that point? MLB and Elias have spent the last four years researching and validating stats.

Major Leagues (and associated stats) is not just National League and American League. There's also:

Federal League
American Association
Players League
Union Association
National Association

The stats count as official MLB stats for those leagues as well. Long live the Newark Pepper and Fort Wayne Kekiongas!

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

I'm going to write a letter today. In high school I had a tournament winning percentage of 45%, which blows Tiger, Jack, Sam and Tom away. I'll going to ask them to incorporate that record into the PGA statistics, and then pay me $2 million for each win and $4 million for my county championship. And even though there was no FedEx Cup at the time, I would have won it easily, so I'd like $25 million bonus for both my junior and senior years.sounds goodto me , It’s About Time

[golfing eagles]

sounds goodto me , It’s About Time

Good one:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

Negro Leagues were designated as "major leagues" in 2020. So why wouldn't the stats count at that point? MLB and Elias have spent the last four years researching and validating stats.

Major Leagues (and associated stats) is not just National League and American League. There's also:

Federal League
American Association
Players League
Union Association
National Association

The stats count as official MLB stats for those leagues as well. Long live the Newark Pepper and Fort Wayne Kekiongas!

So why not just apply revisionist history to every record in the book? "They" could even make the outcome whatever they want it to be. Heck, I'm still hung up with Marris tying Ruth even though he had 8 more games, and Sosa/ McGwire beating it with steroids.

The Roman conquerors of Britain played a game called paganica, where a bent stick was used to hit a feather stuffed leather ball about 2,000 years ago. Perhaps we could apply revisionist policy to that, declare them PGA tour equivalents, and find some record to put on the books.

Bottom line: Declaring something "major league", by decree 100 years later is simply applying populist political correctness to something that was nothing of the sort at the time. History is history, you cannot change it, but hopefully we learn from it.

[Stu from NYC]

Was the competition in the Negro leagues equal to major leagues at the time?

If the answer is yes makes sense to me.

If not the records will be meaningless

[golfing eagles]

Was the competition in the Negro leagues equal to major leagues at the time?

If the answer is yes makes sense to me.

If not the records will be meaningless

Exactly!

There is something known as the APGA today (Alternate PGA), which consists of minority golfers. They usually have the sponsor of a PGA tournament invite one of their players as an exemption. I don't believe any of them has ever made the cut much less seriously compete to win. That tour is far from "equal". But sooner or later they may produce a superstar, one that might even set some sort of "record" if the revisionists of the future declare that tour to be "major" and merge stats. Personally, I find this assault on one of the last meritocracies deplorable.

[Rainger99]

Should the ABA records be incorporated into the NBA?


Just a moment... (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4541671)

[golfing eagles]

Should the ABA records be incorporated into the NBA?


Just a moment... (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4541671)

Even better, anyone remember Frank Viola---Cy Young award winner and world series MVP? When we were 8 years old, I had a .750 batting average against him in little league. Could we incorporate that record. Please.

[Stu from NYC]

Even better, anyone remember Frank Viola---Cy Young award winner and world series MVP? When we were 8 years old, I had a .750 batting average against him in little league. Could we incorporate that record. Please.

Thought you were a better hitter than that:a20::a20:

[golfing eagles]

Thought you were a better hitter than that:a20::a20:

Sadly, Frankie went on to have a much better MLB career than I

[BrianL99]

Even better, anyone remember Frank Viola---Cy Young award winner and world series MVP? When we were 8 years old, I had a .750 batting average against him in little league. Could we incorporate that record. Please.

Frank lived in Concord, MA for a while and I met him a few times. He mentioned that there were a couple of guys who really had his number and he just couldn't get them out, no matter how hard he tried.

Now I know who he was referring to.

[blueash]

Exactly!

There is something known as the APGA today (Alternate PGA), which consists of minority golfers. They usually have the sponsor of a PGA tournament invite one of their players as an exemption. I don't believe any of them has ever made the cut much less seriously compete to win. That tour is far from "equal". But sooner or later they may produce a superstar, one that might even set some sort of "record" if the revisionists of the future declare that tour to be "major" and merge stats. Personally, I find this assault on one of the last meritocracies deplorable.

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.

[CFrance]

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.
Very well said.

[Rainger99]

Hank Aaron played in the Negro Leagues. This ruling will add to his home run totals.


Hank Aaron Negro Leagues stats: Will Hall of Famer pass Barry Bonds as MLB'''s home run king after stats change? | Sporting News (https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/hank-aaron-negro-leagues-stats-mlb-home-run-king/699949c8aa461adca1440c72)

[Rainger99]

It should be noted that there was no Negro League. MLB has recognized seven Negro Leagues that are considered to be of the top quality of play at the time of their existence. They were in existence from 1920 to 1950.

Also, it wasn’t until 1964 that the first Japanese player played in the major leagues. Should their records be recognized as MLB records?

[BrianL99]

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.



Re-writing history is a fool's errand or a woke's dream.

The LAW in the United States, was "separate but equal". It wasn't an "opinion". It wasn't individual choice. It wasn't "unfair" by the standards of the times. It was barely in dispute by either side of the fence.

It was simply the law of the land.

Attempting to re-write history, serves only to assuage those who feel guilty about their collective history and does nothing productive.

[Taltarzac725]

Was the competition in the Negro leagues equal to major leagues at the time?

If the answer is yes makes sense to me.

If not the records will be meaningless

Good question.

[Stu from NYC]

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.

It was certainly wrong not to allow Blacks into the major leagues. Terrible wrong.

However there were so many Black leagues that I would think the quality of play was not equal to that of the majors. If so records will be watered down and that is not right.

Let the best players of the Negro leagues get into the hall of fame and be honored, to me that would be the most fair way to handle this

[Snakster66]

Was the competition in the Negro leagues equal to major leagues at the time?

If the answer is yes makes sense to me.

If not the records will be meaningless

One could reasonably ask if the competition in the Major Leagues was equal to the negro leagues. The ship goes both ways. What is undeniable is all of those leagues had players who could play in the counterpart league. And all those leagues had players who wouldn’t make it in a combined league.

Not sure how people can say this is rewriting history. It’s history that HAPPENED and is now being put in to the books where they belong. As long as you agree that the negro leagues were ‘major’ leagues. Which, again, was determined by MLB in 2020. Debate that if you want. But if they are, then of course the records belong in the books.

One could also say that ALL of the records prior to 1947 are meaningless because the players across all leagues weren’t playing against the best possible competition.

[BrianL99]

Not sure how people can say this is rewriting history. It’s history that HAPPENED and is now being put in to the books where they belong. As long as you agree that the negro leagues were ‘major’ leagues. Which, again, was determined by MLB in 2020. Debate that if you want. But if they are, then of course the records belong in the books.



They were not "Major League Baseball", just the same as the World Football League was not the NFL.

"Major League Baseball" is a specific entity, that the Negro League did not belong to. They (Negro leagues) had ZERO involvement with Major League Baseball.

They were never invited to join under the umbrella of Major League Baseball and to now suddenly say they were part of Major League Baseball, is sports-washing of the highest order.

The exact same argument applies to women's sports. They were denied entry to "Men's Sport Teams/Leagues" ... is that not the exact same "discrimination"? It's OK to discriminate based on sex, but not on color?

"Major League Baseball" has absolutely no right whatsoever, to use the names of people who never played the game under their umbrella. To do so, defies common sense, diminishes the accomplishments of those who did play under that umbrella and panders to those trying to whitewash American history.

[Rainger99]

Josh Gibson had 838 hits in 2255 at bats. He played a total of 653 games.

Ty Cobb had 4191 hits in 11429 at bats. He played in 3034 games.

Prior to today, the current standard for career MLB leaders was 5,000 at-bats and 2,000 innings pitched, which roughly equates to 10 full qualifying seasons.


Negro League seasons were shorter than MLB seasons so
for Negro Leagues players, this standard has been set at 1,800 at-bats and 600 innings -- roughly the equivalent of 10 seasons’ worth of 60-game seasons.

[Topspinmo]

Who cares, bunch of over paid little leaguers anyway….:beer3:

[badkarma318]

Looking forward to Ichiro replacing that cheating scumbag Pete Rose as the true hit king.

[golfing eagles]

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.

A very cogent argument in favor of revising history. Can anyone cite other examples of history being revised? Start with works of fiction---Fahrenheit 451, then move on to 1984.

Was excluding an entire race from competing equally unfair---of course it was. Did it happen---yes---from the time the cavemen with clubs hated the cavemen who threw stones. Can we change that by changing the vocabulary or throwing money at it---NO. All we can do is learn from it and change.

Was the standard of play in any of the non-AL/NL leagues of the time lower? No idea, no way to prove it either way. Is the standard of play lower in the APGA---obviously, but as stated above, the minority golfers are not excluded from the PGA. Which then begs the question---why have an APGA at all? There already is a "minor league" golf tour---the Korn Ferry. There are tours lower than that---the "mini-tours". So why do we have a tour that is defined by race? Since there is no racial barrier to playing on any professional golf tour, there is plenty of opportunity for EARNING a spot based on MERIT. Are they enough highly skilled golfers to support even more "tours"----yes, but it should be defined by skill, not race, religion or ethnicity.

Finally, moving from racism to sexism, why not incorporate records from the AAPGBL(All-American Girls Professional Baseball League) into MLB. Tom Hanks and Penny Marshall could lead the charge. After all, while they were in a "league of their own", they were the major league during WWII:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Rainger99]

Can we change that by changing the vocabulary or throwing money at it---NO.


I saw some people on tv saying that the families of Negro League players should now be entitled to reparations for the discrimination.

[swooner]

How very woke.

Why not integrate Para-Olympic statistics into real Olympic records?

Or ... World Football League or Arena Football records into NFL statistics?

Everyone gets a trophy or the world's not fair.
Wow! You've got to be kidding! But you're not.

[Normal]

Well, if all of sudden my Babe Ruth baseball becomes worthless, I guess I’lll need to buy a Josh Gibson ball?

Maybe everything should have been handled a little differently like Jim Thorpe’s legacy.

It is about time, but what will change? One thing I know of that hasn’t, the whining of the future which had nothing to do with our past.

[BrianL99]

I saw some people on tv saying that the families of Negro League players should now be entitled to reparations for the discrimination.

Why is there consistently only 1 group, seeking to monetize their perceived persecution?

... asking for a friend.

[Normal]

Why is there consistently only 1 group, seeking to monetize their perceived persecution?

... asking for a friend.

Game revenue was different, so that wouldn’t correlate? You can’t pay more than your team brings in in revenue. Do you blame the crowd for not fessing up? Maybe the promoters or the stadium? You only get paid at a rate for what the general public was willing to pay to see you perform.

[golfing eagles]

Why is there consistently only 1 group, seeking to monetize their perceived persecution?

... asking for a friend.

I’m thinking I need advanced DNA testing to find out if I’m a descendant of the Hitites so I can demand reparations from the Babylonians😂😂😂

[La lamy]

Finally! Now we also get to see all the black haters on this forum!

[Normal]

Finally! Now we also get to see all the black haters on this forum!

I think most have died off in American society, but you can still see a few popping up their ugly heads. Hopefully one day they all see life has moved on and they are just the dust in the mirror.

[golfing eagles]

Finally! Now we also get to see all the black haters on this forum!

WRONG!!!

It has absolutely nothing to do with "black hate". I don't know about others, but personally I've had a ton of black (and Jewish and Asian) friends---more in NY and less in TV but that is due to the demographics here. My best friend in grade school was one of the only blacks in a lily white Long Island community.

The issue is revisionist history----trying to erase an injustice by throwing money (reparations) at it, changing the vocabulary (New Speak), or lowering the bar in competition (college admissions, APGA, etc.). I have absolutely no "white guilt". While plantation owners were exploiting slaves in the South 200 years ago, my ancestors were in Europe. I owe their descendants ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

We can't change history. We can study it, we can learn from it, and we can certainly know enough not to repeat it (I hope). But we can't repair it and shouldn't try. Let the statues of confederate leaders stand as a reminder of what was wrong, otherwise those tearing them down are no different from the "firemen" in Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451.

[Two Bills]

I’m thinking I need advanced DNA testing to find out if I’m a descendant of the Hitites so I can demand reparations from the Babylonians😂😂😂

It's those bl**dy Vikings and Romans I'm after!

[golfing eagles]

It's those bl**dy Vikings and Romans I'm after!

Don't forget my great great great x about 40 grandfather, Henry De lea, who was awarded "lands in Essex and Sussex for fighting valiantly alongside William the Conqueror" .

SORRY (but no cash)

[airstreamingypsy]

Finally! Now we also get to see all the black haters on this forum!

They are out in full force this morning. It makes me sad, I liked it better when they were so vocal about it.

[BrianL99]

I think most have died off in American society, but you can still see a few popping up their ugly heads. Hopefully one day they all see life has moved on and they are just the dust in the mirror.

They are out in full force this morning. It makes me sad, I liked it better when they were so vocal about it.

The recent Grayson Murray story in the golf world, carries implications far beyond golf. Mental health is as important as physical health. We'd all be better off to spend as much time in a "mental health gym" strengthening our mental health, as we are in a traditional gym.

Those who carry the burdens of guilt, based on what their ancestors may or may not have done 100-150 years ago, would do themselves and society a huge favor, by coming to grips with their issues and understanding there's no going back, there's no re-writing, there's no changing the injustices of the past ... there's only going forward with the experience and wisdom of hindsight.

[Stu from NYC]

They are out in full force this morning. It makes me sad, I liked it better when they were so vocal about it.

Why can I not disagree or question something without the name calling of black hater?

[Stu from NYC]

WRONG!!!

It has absolutely nothing to do with "black hate". I don't know about others, but personally I've had a ton of black (and Jewish and Asian) friends---more in NY and less in TV but that is due to the demographics here. My best friend in grade school was one of the only blacks in a lily white Long Island community.

The issue is revisionist history----trying to erase an injustice by throwing money (reparations) at it, changing the vocabulary (New Speak), or lowering the bar in competition (college admissions, APGA, etc.). I have absolutely no "white guilt". While plantation owners were exploiting slaves in the South 200 years ago, my ancestors were in Europe. I owe their descendants ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

We can't change history. We can study it, we can learn from it, and we can certainly know enough not to repeat it (I hope). But we can't repair it and shouldn't try. Let the statues of confederate leaders stand as a reminder of what was wrong, otherwise those tearing them down are no different from the "firemen" in Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451.

Very well said

[Escape Artist]

The Baseball Hall of Fame at Cooperstown, NY as well as statistic-centered organizations such as SABR and Baseball Reference, encompass all baseball statistics and the various leagues, including the Negro leagues and women’s leagues, throughout the centuries of play. That’s different than MLB which has been comprised of two leagues since the early 20th century. In other words, the game of baseball is set apart from the professional permutations we are accustomed to through MLB. Sometimes they overlap as far as stats go.

[Two Bills]

Why can I not disagree or question something without the name calling of black hater?

Well said.
It's just the same if you object to dogs pooping on your yard. Called a 'dog hater!'

[SHIBUMI]

Any competitive sport stats are unrealistic..........they are just good for bar room and beer talk............ In the early years of any sport where one competed against another the competition was minimal. So standouts were not really that good as their competition was weak. They are just good players in not very talented leagues for their era. The numbers mean nothing over time............

Babe Ruth could not hit todays pitchers, Bobby Jones could not play against todays Tour golfers, etc etc etc etc ... their competition was minimal in their era, BUT, society is entertained by stats and love to argue over who would do what, and it doesn't wash.

There are no real GOATS in sports.........people just need a hero for THEIR time......
Time will ultimately remove all goats.......as new generations need new goats, it sells beer and entertains the sports mob.

That being said, including the black athletes is no big deal...........as they were excluded by society to maintain white supremacy, some payback I guess.

The key to stats is to look at them and say, hey, thats cool. BUT, once you start comparing them to others of a different era you are delusional and just looking for conversation. So, crack open a six pack and have at it.....proves or disturbs nothing but your buzz.............

The only real stats are those made against a non human competitor. You cannot
argue a faster mile, or longer toss, or more weight lifted, etc.... BUT, that just aint fun discussing...........:pepper2:


Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2024/05/28/negro-leagues-statistics-officially-incorporated-into-major-league-record-book/73882293007/)

[gatorbill1]

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2024/05/28/negro-leagues-statistics-officially-incorporated-into-major-league-record-book/73882293007/)

Can they do that in Florida????

[Rainger99]

Babe Ruth could not hit todays pitchers, Bobby Jones could not play against todays Tour golfers, etc etc etc etc.

Do you think Jack Nicklaus could play today? Ben Hogan? Lee Trevino? Arnie? Bill Russell? Kareem?

Shortly before he died, Ty Cobb was supposedly asked by a reporter how he would do against the current MLB pitchers. Cobb said that he would probably only hit about .300. The reporter said that is amazing - you were a lifetime .367 hitter! Cobb replied that "You've got to remember - I'm seventy-three."

Jackie Robinson played one year in the Negro Leagues. He was 26 and he hit .387 with five home runs in 47 games. His best year in MLB he hit .342 and the most home runs he hit in a season was 19. His career batting average was .313.

[SHIBUMI]

Please explain your point...........sounds like you are agreeing!!!!!!


Do you think Jack Nicklaus could play today? Ben Hogan? Lee Trevino? Arnie? Bill Russell? Kareem?

Shortly before he died, Ty Cobb was supposedly asked by a reporter how he would do against the current MLB pitchers. Cobb said that he would probably only hit about .300. The reporter said that is amazing - you were a lifetime .367 hitter! Cobb replied that "You've got to remember - I'm seventy-three."

Jackie Robinson played one year in the Negro Leagues. He was 26 and he hit .387 with five home runs in 47 games. His best year in MLB he hit .342 and the most home runs he hit in a season was 19. His career batting average was .313.

[Rainger99]

Please explain your point...........sounds like you are agreeing!!!!!!

I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing.

You said that Bobby Jones couldn’t make it today and I asked about other great golfers and basketball players (from the 1940s to the 1980s) and whether you thought they could make it today.

You never answered my question.

[SHIBUMI]

I think they wouldn't be as great as the competition level has increased 2 fold from their day.............would they be good..probably but not great


.I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing.

You said that Bobby Jones couldn’t make it today and I asked about other great golfers and basketball players (from the 1940s to the 1980s) and whether you thought they could make it today.

You never answered my question.

[Stu from NYC]

I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing.

You said that Bobby Jones couldn’t make it today and I asked about other great golfers and basketball players (from the 1940s to the 1980s) and whether you thought they could make it today.

You never answered my question.

Not so sure about golfers Equipment much better today than back than.

Baseball or Basketball no idea

[Caymus]

Any competitive sport stats are unrealistic..........they are just good for bar room and beer talk............ In the early years of any sport where one competed against another the competition was minimal. So standouts were not really that good as their competition was weak. They are just good players in not very talented leagues for their era. The numbers mean nothing over time............

Babe Ruth could not hit todays pitchers, Bobby Jones could not play against todays Tour golfers, etc etc etc etc ... their competition was minimal in their era, BUT, society is entertained by stats and love to argue over who would do what, and it doesn't wash.

There are no real GOATS in sports.........people just need a hero for THEIR time......
Time will ultimately remove all goats.......as new generations need new goats, it sells beer and entertains the sports mob.

That being said, including the black athletes is no big deal...........as they were excluded by society to maintain white supremacy, some payback I guess.

The key to stats is to look at them and say, hey, thats cool. BUT, once you start comparing them to others of a different era you are delusional and just looking for conversation. So, crack open a six pack and have at it.....proves or disturbs nothing but your buzz.............

The only real stats are those made against a non human competitor. You cannot
argue a faster mile, or longer toss, or more weight lifted, etc.... BUT, that just aint fun discussing...........:pepper2:

Supposedly he had excellent hand/eye coordination. Imagine if he spent time in the gym instead of at the bars and buffets.

[Rainger99]

If the Negro Leagues were better than MLB players, how do people explain that Jackie Robinson hit .387 in his one year in the Negro Leagues but his highest average in the weaker MLB was only .342?

If he were playing against inferior players shouldn’t his average have gone up?

Willie Mays highest batting average was .347 in 1958. Shouldn’t he have hit at least .400 playing against weaker competition?

[Stu from NYC]

If the Negro Leagues were better than MLB players, how do people explain that Jackie Robinson hit .387 in his one year in the Negro Leagues but his highest average in the weaker MLB was only .342?

If he were playing against inferior players shouldn’t his average have gone up?

Willie Mays highest batting average was .347 in 1958. Shouldn’t he have hit at least .400 playing against weaker competition?

Hard to say. Records are very important in baseball and no way to directly compare the two leagues.

That is why my thought is put the outstanding players in the hall of fame and call it a day

[jimjamuser]

Negro Leagues were designated as "major leagues" in 2020. So why wouldn't the stats count at that point? MLB and Elias have spent the last four years researching and validating stats.

Major Leagues (and associated stats) is not just National League and American League. There's also:

Federal League
American Association
Players League
Union Association
National Association

The stats count as official MLB stats for those leagues as well. Long live the Newark Pepper and Fort Wayne Kekiongas!
Somehow I don't have a problem with the concept. Remember, "TOWARD a more perfect Union". Maybe we are just taking an incremental leap forward.

[BrianL99]

Hard to say. Records are very important in baseball and no way to directly compare the two leagues.

That is why my thought is put the outstanding players in the hall of fame and call it a day

37 Negro League Players who never played Major League Baseball, have been inducted into the Hall of Fame.

[Caymus]

37 Negro League Players who never played Major League Baseball, have been inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Is the Baseball Hall of Fame only open to MLB Players? For comparison, the Basketball Hall of Fame enshrines players/coaches/broadcasters etc. with professional or amateur backgrounds.

[golfing eagles]

37 Negro League Players who never played Major League Baseball, have been inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Yes, and now MLB can bolster their claim that they embrace "diversity" and "inclusion". Gee, isn't that "wonderful"? Far more important than skill, athleticism and performance.

[Rainger99]

Is the Baseball Hall of Fame only open to MLB Players? For comparison, the Basketball Hall of Fame enshrines players/coaches/broadcasters etc. with professional or amateur backgrounds.

The Hall of Fame is comprised of 346 elected members. Included are 273 former major league players, as well as 40 executives/pioneers, 23 managers and 10 umpires.

[jimjamuser]

Re-writing history is a fool's errand or a woke's dream.

The LAW in the United States, was "separate but equal". It wasn't an "opinion". It wasn't individual choice. It wasn't "unfair" by the standards of the times. It was barely in dispute by either side of the fence.

It was simply the law of the land.

Attempting to re-write history, serves only to assuage those who feel guilty about their collective history and does nothing productive.
One side had zero ability to "dispute". I doubt that they could complain to the Wall St. Journal. "Simply the law of the land" --------I can't see that!