Sports for Pay

[justjim]

Now we are going to pay High School kids to play sports. Most States, including Florida, will allow High School athletes to get paid for “their name, image and likeness”. Professional players can make as much as 700 million playing baseball. Some get over 100 million for batting 250/260. 400 million if you are a reasonable good golfer and play for LIV. College level sports will allow you to get payed and the best players are gravitating to the Big Conferences with the best players. The Olympics, the epitome of amateur sports, are professionals now. Well, I could go on but you get the picture. Is a “sports bubble” being created? Are sports more important than education?

[Shipping up to Boston]

Now we are going to pay High School kids to play sports. Most States, including Florida, will allow High School athletes to get paid for “their name, image and likeness”. Professional players can make as much as 700 million playing baseball. Some get over 100 million for batting 250/260. 400 million if you are a reasonable good golfer and play for LIV. College level sports will allow you to get payed and the best players are gravitating to the Big Conferences with the best players. The Olympics, the epitome of amateur sports, are professionals now. Well, I could go on but you get the picture. Is a “sports bubble” being created? Are sports more important than education?

NIL resulted from the NCAA monopolization of its student athletes. The fact is....college sports are the economic engine for most D1 colleges/universities.....not the Sci Tech, Biology and History buildings on said campuses. You can make an argument that that is the wrong priority...but you can’t argue the fact. Because NIL was a result of court action....it’s implementation and roll out was pretty unrestricted. I think it needs to be scaled at some point. As far as HS athletes...there simply isn’t that much of an NIL marketplace unless you were some sort of generational talent or Lebrons kid! In either case, if someone is making money off of your name, image or likeness....I definitely have no problem with anyone....regardless of age, ‘copyrighting’ their brand from these ‘pirates’!

[justjim]

A typical baseball game (America’s pastime) Me, wife, son, wife and two grandsons in decent seats at the ol’ballgame with hotel rooms, hot dogs, soda’s and adult beverages and dinner, etc. Wow! I guess it best to watch the game on our 65” television and invite the gang over to the house. Two tickets to the Cubs World Series in 2016 (resold tickets) 4K a piece. Middle class almost locked out of going in person to world Series, Super Bowl or Final four. Somebody has to pay for these outrageous salaries.

[Shipping up to Boston]

A typical baseball game (America’s pastime) Me, wife, son, wife and two grandsons in decent seats at the ol’ballgame with hotel rooms, hot dogs, soda’s and adult beverages and dinner, etc. Wow! I guess it best to watch the game on our 65” television and invite the gang over to the house. Two tickets to the Cubs World Series in 2016 (resold tickets) 4K a piece. Middle class almost locked out of going in person to world Series, Super Bowl or Final four. Somebody has to pay for these outrageous salaries.

There are 20K packages to tonight’s C’s Finals. The corporate suits or entitled ‘celebrities’....or pink hats as we call them...are the ones that drive up those numbers. The best you can do nowadays, if you want to take a family, is the preseason!

[retiredguy123]

Personally, I believe in capitalism and competition for business. So, are sports more important than education? Yes. Do I think a teacher is worth millions per year? No. Schools would be a lot better if they were allowed to compete.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Personally, I believe in capitalism and competition for business. So, are sports more important than education? Yes. Do I think a teacher is worth millions per year? No. Schools would be a lot better if they were allowed to compete.

Confused about the last sentence in your post.
Compete how? They already compete athletically and as someone with kids, I remember going through the college selection process as to who is gonna receive my 100K -250K in tuition. That competition has existed for generations

[retiredguy123]

Confused about the last sentence in your post.
Compete how? They already compete athletically and as someone with kids, I remember going through the college selection process as to who is gonna receive my 100K -250K in tuition. That competition has existed for generations
Our education system is bad because schools cannot compete against each other.

Some people will says that teachers are underpaid, but they don't want to fire bad teachers or close bad schools. Sports doesn't work that way.

[jimbomaybe]

Our education system is bad because schools cannot compete against each other.

Some people will says that teachers are underpaid, but they don't want to fire bad teachers or close bad schools. Sports doesn't work that way.
I think there is little doubt education would be improved if a voucher system was put in place , public Ed competing with private, but getting that past the NEA would be just about impossible, they have a large and very effective lobbying arm that protects the public school teachers

[retiredguy123]

I think there is little doubt education would be improved if a voucher system was put in place , public Ed competing with private, but getting that past the NEA would be just about impossible, they have a large and very effective lobbying arm that protects the public school teachers
I agree, but paying teachers more money, as the OP implied, would not improve education either.

[jimbomaybe]

I agree, but paying teachers more money, as the OP implied, would not improve education either.
Agreed , private schools have a higher SAT result at a lower cost, from my experience this has much to do with parental involvement as well as many private schools are run by church and other religious organizations . The teacher see it as a calling, the bureaucracies of private schools much smaller and more responsive. I did not read the entire article but a there was a Washington newspaper story how GPA were going up and SAT scores going down . Does that sound like public bureaucrats at work?

[justjim]

Personally, I believe in capitalism and competition for business. So, are sports more important than education? Yes. Do I think a teacher is worth millions per year? No. Schools would be a lot better if they were allowed to compete.

Sports are important but not as important as education. Without education many of the breakthroughs in science and medicine would not happen.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Agreed , private schools have a higher SAT result at a lower cost, from my experience this has much to do with parental involvement as well as many private schools are run by church and other religious organizations . The teacher see it as a calling, the bureaucracies of private schools much smaller and more responsive. I did not read the entire article but a there was a Washington newspaper story how GPA were going up and SAT scores going down . Does that sound like public bureaucrats at work?

If you understand how admissions works at colleges and universities, you would know how insignificant SAT scores are in today’s acceptances. Most have abandoned its requirement as there are many more metrics out there that are not standardized in nature.... to judge the merits of a prospective student. AP level course load an example! The SAT only intended benefit was to barcode tests to pinpoint problem teachers....fair enough. But that is public bureaucracy at its finest....and it failed.
Your take on private schools clearly is a regional observation, as the majority of private schools have no religious affiliations.....what you’re talking about is parochial school. To say that ’parental involvement’ is higher with parents of private or parochial students vs those of public school parents.....on its face is an ignorant statement.

[retiredguy123]

Sports are important but not as important as education. Without education many of the breakthroughs in science and medicine would not happen.
I don't disagree, but your original post was about paying athletes who play well, and comparing that to education. Throwing money at education will not improve it unless you hold the teachers and the schools accountable for what they do for the money. We are spending plenty of money for education and not getting an adequate return on the investment. You can pay a lousy teacher $10 million per year but that will not make them teach any better.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

NCAA sports, which have a professional league to play in after school, turns those colleges and universities athletic programs into trade schools, nothing more.

[blueash]

... The fact is....college sports are the economic engine for most D1 colleges/universities.....not the Sci Tech, Biology and History buildings on said campuses. ...!

I wonder if you would care to document your "fact"? You know, real numbers. I will go first. Ohio State leads the nation in income from sports In 2023 it received about 280 million income and spent 275 million on athletics so the University pocketed about 5 million in profit to use for non athletic purposes. Don't believe me... here is the report summary
(https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/ohio-state-buckeyes-5-things-to-know-about-athletic-department-finances/DJBRKQSY4VAH5KIEIOO22TAVLE/#:~:text=Ohio%20State%20reported%20a%20profit,the% 20nation%20in%20athletics%20revenue.)

Now that is pretty meaningless unless you know the total non-sports budget of OSU. If it is 10 million then the 5 million sports profit is huge. But the real fact, the truth is that for 2024 the budget for OSU is over 9 billion dollars. The 2024 and 2025 budget is here (https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/fy25_financial_plan_-_final.pdf).

So tell me again about how sports income is the economic engine for D1 schools when the biggest receiver of sports income gets almost no net income from its sports program.

OSU running a profit at all is not the usual. Here is the key quote from a PBS review (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports) of the issue
"expenditures by college athletics departments are such that, with the exception of a small number of schools, athletic expenses surpass revenues at the overwhelming majority of Division I programs"

So your fact is not holding up very well to the light of actual information. Opinions based on false beliefs are a big thing in the country right now. See my tag line.

[justjim]

I don't disagree, but your original post was about paying athletes who play well, and comparing that to education. Throwing money at education will not improve it unless you hold the teachers and the schools accountable for what they do for the money. We are spending plenty of money for education and not getting an adequate return on the investment. You can pay a lousy teacher $10 million per year but that will not make them teach any better.

As a general statement, teachers are underpaid and definitely under appreciated. Many times they are not only a teacher but “parents”for the kids too. You should talk to some teachers and there are a lot of excellent teachers. BTW there is a critical shortage of teachers. Not all facilities are like those at Middleton either. Sports do have a big part to play especially at the middle school and high school level of education. A good coach and their assistant can make a difference in the lives of their students.

[jimbomaybe]

If you understand how admissions works at colleges and universities, you would know how insignificant SAT scores are in today’s acceptances. Most have abandoned its requirement as there are many more metrics out there that are not standardized in nature.... to judge the merits of a prospective student. AP level course load an example! The SAT only intended benefit was to barcode tests to pinpoint problem teachers....fair enough. But that is public bureaucracy at its finest....and it failed.
Your take on private schools clearly is a regional observation, as the majority of private schools have no religious affiliations.....what you’re talking about is parochial school. To say that ’parental involvement’ is higher with parents of private or parochial students vs those of public school parents.....on its face is an ignorant statement.
My experience is regional, Chicago / Illinois where the teachers union, CTU and NEA is very influential and the educational experience of the student is much less rewarding in the public system. Parents who are willing to pay the tuition for private schools over and above the taxes they pay do so for the most part so their children get a better education and are likewise more involved. The parochial aspect of the education was not as much a motivation factor to most of the parents I have talked with. Taking road trips with my son looking a different colleges, talking to the admissions people you find out just how much a Chicago/Illinois public education is valued and of course also reflected in SAT scores of the students. Opposition to a voucher system is only self protection for the teachers union

[huge-pigeons]

Schools today want to dumb down students, not increase their intelligence. Look at some mandates that have been put in place these last few years: no more tests because too many can’t pass them, or anybody can get into any public university without any prescreening/testing. In the future you will have surgeons that can’t read or write because it’s mandatory you hire from all pools.

The plus I see from students getting paid in high school is the kid doesn’t have to cut his daily sports training short (if this is what they want to do later in life) to cut grass to make a couple dollars.

[Shipping up to Boston]

I wonder if you would care to document your "fact"? You know, real numbers. I will go first. Ohio State leads the nation in income from sports In 2023 it received about 280 million income and spent 275 million on athletics so the University pocketed about 5 million in profit to use for non athletic purposes. Don't believe me... here is the report summary
(https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/ohio-state-buckeyes-5-things-to-know-about-athletic-department-finances/DJBRKQSY4VAH5KIEIOO22TAVLE/#:~:text=Ohio%20State%20reported%20a%20profit,the% 20nation%20in%20athletics%20revenue.)

Now that is pretty meaningless unless you know the total non-sports budget of OSU. If it is 10 million then the 5 million sports profit is huge. But the real fact, the truth is that for 2024 the budget for OSU is over 9 billion dollars. The 2024 and 2025 budget is here (https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/fy25_financial_plan_-_final.pdf).

So tell me again about how sports income is the economic engine for D1 schools when the biggest receiver of sports income gets almost no net income from its sports program.

OSU running a profit at all is not the usual. Here is the key quote from a PBS review (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports) of the issue
"expenditures by college athletics departments are such that, with the exception of a small number of schools, athletic expenses surpass revenues at the overwhelming majority of Division I programs"

So your fact is not holding up very well to the light of actual information. Opinions based on false beliefs are a big thing in the country right now. See my tag line.

My point is/was D1 sports brings in more REVENUE than the academic departments that I listed. We’re not talking about how they expend said revenue. It’s just a fact. Geno Auriemma, the UConn women’s basketball head coach just signed a multi year extension worth close to 18M ....show me the department heads of the ones I listed that clear those kinds of contracts. You’re talking operational costs.....at OSU (a state school) obviously the tax payer is the largest underwriter of the operation but as far as which part of the university community ‘generates’ the most revenue for the school (non taxpayer) its the athletic side. As far as your tag line...since you fashion yourself as a ‘critical thinker’....maybe you should spend more time on critical reading and comprehension!

[Mrmean58]

NIL resulted from the NCAA monopolization of its student athletes. The fact is....college sports are the economic engine for most D1 colleges/universities.....not the Sci Tech, Biology and History buildings on said campuses. You can make an argument that that is the wrong priority...but you can’t argue the fact. Because NIL was a result of court action....it’s implementation and roll out was pretty unrestricted. I think it needs to be scaled at some point. As far as HS athletes...there simply isn’t that much of an NIL marketplace unless you were some sort of generational talent or Lebrons kid! In either case, if someone is making money off of your name, image or likeness....I definitely have no problem with anyone....regardless of age, ‘copyrighting’ their brand from these ‘pirates’!
So now that there is a movement toward student athletes becoming "employees" of their university by getting paid by the school, will the student athletes be responsible for income taxes on the value of their education. Schools such as Harvard, USC, Stanford etc are now charging $85k per year plus in tuition. What about the value of the nutritional three squares the athletes get at their training table daily? I fear a Pandora box has been opened that can never be closed. In the real corporate world, employees are responsible for the taxes on any additional benefits they received over a certain threshold.

[Shipping up to Boston]

So now that there is a movement toward student athletes becoming "employees" of their university by getting paid by the school, will the student athletes be responsible for income taxes on the value of their education. Schools such as Harvard, USC, Stanford etc are now charging $85k per year plus in tuition. What about the value of the nutritional three squares the athletes get at their training table daily? I fear a Pandora box has been opened that can never be closed. In the real corporate world, employees are responsible for the taxes on any additional benefits they received over a certain threshold.

Do you really think....let’s use as an example Liv Dunne from LSU, a gymnast who is generating multi millions yearly in NIL...is going to care if she has to pay for state tuition out of that income? Which btw...all the athletes are subject to withholding as expected. Most are on scholarship anyway as these schools want the exposure said athletes bring to their schools. The Harvard example is really not a great one because unless an athlete can attract NIL interest, it’s a non issue

[jimbomaybe]

Schools today want to dumb down students, not increase their intelligence. Look at some mandates that have been put in place these last few years: no more tests because too many can’t pass them, or anybody can get into any public university without any prescreening/testing. In the future you will have surgeons that can’t read or write because it’s mandatory you hire from all pools.

The plus I see from students getting paid in high school is the kid doesn’t have to cut his daily sports training short (if this is what they want to do later in life) to cut grass to make a couple dollars.
You need to raise your social justice sensitivity a few noches , competence is not what it is about, Diversity Inclusion, Equity is what's really important

[Marine1974]

I agree, but paying teachers more money, as the OP implied, would not improve education either.
You think they could reimburse teachers that have to buy supplies out of their own pocket because they’re dedicated to educating your child and not paid enough .

[Windguy]

Agreed , private schools have a higher SAT result at a lower cost
I don’t think it’s because the private schools are inherently better. I think it’s because they can pick and choose their students. Students who aren't performing well or are troublesome are kicked out. Public schools have to take everyone.

And, yes, I know a kid who was kicked out of a catholic school because his grades were poor.

[waterflower]

Home School our children.

[Shipping up to Boston]

You think they could reimburse teachers that have to buy supplies out of their own pocket because they’re dedicated to educating your child and not paid enough .

Good point
You have too many ‘helicopter parents’ out there that will never understand that

[ThirdOfFive]

Schools today want to dumb down students, not increase their intelligence. Look at some mandates that have been put in place these last few years: no more tests because too many can’t pass them, or anybody can get into any public university without any prescreening/testing. In the future you will have surgeons that can’t read or write because it’s mandatory you hire from all pools.

The plus I see from students getting paid in high school is the kid doesn’t have to cut his daily sports training short (if this is what they want to do later in life) to cut grass to make a couple dollars.
I'm not sure that the goal is "dumbing down". The Three R's are still taught. Rather, there seems to be a concentrated effort in public elementary and secondary schools seems to be to teach kids WHAT, rather than how, to think; not as a replacement for the aforesaid Three R's, but certainly (it seems) as co-equals.

Not all kids go with that particular flow however. My step-granddaughter graduated last week from one of the largest public high schools in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area. Top-of-the-class student. National Honor Society. The recipient of three rather handsome scholarships for college. I doubt she'll need them: she has worked full-time summers the past two years for the University of Minnesota Extension, as well as for her high school during the school year (both before and after classes end for the day), and managed to save up to buy her own car (cash) as well as accumulate a significant savings account for college. Those scholarships are nice but I have little doubt that she would make it on her own without them. She certainly doesn't lack ambition.

Her goal is to be a teacher, and to that end she has already enrolled in a smaller University in the University of Minnesota system in a small town in the Southwestern part of the state: one with more traditional values than one would expect, considering its affiliation. The values at this college and in the area where it is located line up with hers: not pie-in-the-sky wishfulness or marching in lockstep to some cotton-candy "cause", but instead a dedication to hard work; interpersonal relations that stress the virtues of honesty. dependability and morality; and respect for one's fellow human beings. I have no doubt she'll make it. She's a whiz at the Three R's, so that won't be a problem. But along with that she intends to bring to her students an ethic, and a view of what life SHOULD be; to prepare them for life as it SHOULD be lived. I equally have no doubt that she will succeed at that, as well.

eighteen-year-old idealism? Maybe. But America would be a far better place if more people shared it.

[dtennent]

Competition cuts both ways. In the 50’s and 60’s, the teaching profession was one of the few that readily accepted women. As time went on, other areas offering higher salaries opened up to women. When I started in 1980 in Research and Development at a Fortune 500 company, there were 3 women who had Ph.D.s. ( out of 600+ scientists). When I retired, 4 of eight of my direct reports who were women, 3 with Ph.d.s. To expect the best and the brightest to take lower paying positions because they feel called to teach doesn’t work in a capitalist system. While I realize that some people do that, it doesn’t work in the larger picture.

[FredMitchell]

...Is a “sports bubble” being created? Are sports more important than education?
Sports are more important to elite athletes because of its economic return on their investments.

Your opinion and mine about the value of sports versus education is irrelevant. The values are set by the world's population and their global economic decisions and a global sense of fairness to individuals and their rights to their names, reputation, etc.

How and whether educational institutions are taxed could change the economics. Do you have enough, time, energy and money to lobby for changes?

[GATORBILL66]

The NIL ruined college sports and now it is about to do the same for high school sports.

[Villagesgal]

This won't stop until people stop worshipping athletes. It has really become crazy out there, yet people complain that the captains of industry that drive jobs and this nation are overpaid when a star athlete makes so much more. Crazy.

[chuckpedrey]

Recently a man told me of taking his wife and two kids a Tiger preseason game in Lakeland and he dropped close to $1,000 on tickets and refreshments

[Bigstu]

Paying High Schoolers is different, can’t be paid by schools or anyone involved with school. Parents have to set up deal, can’t be picture in school uniform. There are a few other rules.
I’m sure they will find ways around this.

[Irishfxm]

there are some very good teachers in the public school Jersey. However, there are some furry average to poor unmotivated teachers as well. They all get the same merit increase every year and no one ever gets fired therein lies the problem. Try that at Google Apple or IBM back in the day.

[jimbomaybe]

I don’t think it’s because the private schools are inherently better. I think it’s because they can pick and choose their students. Students who aren't performing well or are troublesome are kicked out. Public schools have to take everyone.

And, yes, I know a kid who was kicked out of a catholic school because his grades were poor.
Being kicked out for poor grades is something I never heard happening , after putting two through private school , Chicago Public had a selective enrollment schools the only criteria was academic, here again behaviour issues were almost nonexistent, for some reason they seem to want to do a way with those schools

[justjim]

Unfortunately many kids who attend public schools have no real parents to support them. Some live with grandma or a cousin or aunt. They don’t have a legal guardian or know what that is. At best many kids are in an economic disadvantage single parent home. This is especially true in the large cities but also in small rural areas too. And we expect the public school teachers, school administrators and coaches to deal with the situation.

[CybrSage]

This won't stop until people stop worshipping athletes. It has really become crazy out there, yet people complain that the captains of industry that drive jobs and this nation are overpaid when a star athlete makes so much more. Crazy.

Pay is based on how hard it is to find someone capable of doing a job. Before you complain about the pay of pro athletes, ask yourself if you could do theor job. When you say no you will have your answer as to why they get paid so much. It is the same reason why a shelf stocker makes so little.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Unfortunately many kids who attend public schools have no real parents to support them. Some live with grandma or a cousin or aunt. They don’t have a legal guardian or know what that is. At best many kids are in an economic disadvantage single parent home. This is especially true in the large cities but also in small rural areas too. And we expect the public school teachers, school administrators and coaches to deal with the situation.

I’ve already addressed some of this nonsense. But even a helicopter parent deserves the right to his/her opinions

[justjim]

I’ve already addressed some of this nonsense. But even a helicopter parent deserves the right to his/her opinions

You’re absolutely right about opinions.

[golfing eagles]

Schools today want to dumb down students, not increase their intelligence. Look at some mandates that have been put in place these last few years: no more tests because too many can’t pass them, or anybody can get into any public university without any prescreening/testing. In the future you will have surgeons that can’t read or write because it’s mandatory you hire from all pools.

The plus I see from students getting paid in high school is the kid doesn’t have to cut his daily sports training short (if this is what they want to do later in life) to cut grass to make a couple dollars.

You need to raise your social justice sensitivity a few noches , competence is not what it is about, Diversity Inclusion, Equity is what's really important

First off all, if you knew anything about surgeons, you'd know very few of them can read and write :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

But all hyperbole aside, those statements above are not too far from the truth. I sat on the admissions committee of my medical school for 2 years, and the decisions that were made in those meetings were unbelievable. The MCAT scores for certain groups were abysmal, there were applications from students with a GPA of 1.9, and all along there was a member of the committee whose sole job was to "advocate" for these applicants, no matter how unqualified they were. And that was 45 years ago!. Since then they have "dumbed down" the MCAT and put less emphasis on GPAs, in favor of "life experiences" and "cultural upbringing". I can only imagine what goes on in those committee meetings today. Hopefully I'll be dead before I need the services of any of those candidates (if I'm not dead because of them)

[jimbomaybe]

I’ve already addressed some of this nonsense. But even a helicopter parent deserves the right to his/her opinions
But not their choice of schools

[SHIBUMI]

Everyone, no matter what age is entitled to make money off their name or likeness. Previously college sports was similar to slavery. Hard work no pay.........then when less than 1% go on to a professional career, the other 99% get a mediocre education, and suffer injuries for the rest of their lives. Americas hunger for entertainment feeds the sports machine, and will continue.

So, if you are an entertainer you should get paid. No different than making money off Facebook or Tik Tok. The bigger problem here is that with all that revenue the cost of college isn't going down.
Now, thats, the crime.

Colleges are educational institutions, not entertainment centers. All revenue from non education activities(sports) should be taxed. Ethics have no place in capitalism. So slavery has to be fought everywhere as the system favors it. Why are our goods made in china, cheap slave labor. That
clock is ticking as well.............you cant keep taking advantage of people to feed the capitalistic system...........there comes a time to pay the piper..:thumbup:



th mother 99% Now we are going to pay High School kids to play sports. Most States, including Florida, will allow High School athletes to get paid for “their name, image and likeness”. Professional players can make as much as 700 million playing baseball. Some get over 100 million for batting 250/260. 400 million if you are a reasonable good golfer and play for LIV. College level sports will allow you to get payed and the best players are gravitating to the Big Conferences with the best players. The Olympics, the epitome of amateur sports, are professionals now. Well, I could go on but you get the picture. Is a “sports bubble” being created? Are sports more important than education?

[Shipping up to Boston]

But not their choice of schools

You have a choice....at least where I’m from of public, private, charter or home schooled. I believe those are choices.
If you’re in a community that offers public school choice (educate your kids in a community that isn’t their own) that is a choice. Most communities don’t exercise that option but it does exist in some

[jimbomaybe]

You have a choice....at least where I’m from of public, private, charter or home schooled. I believe those are choices.
If you’re in a community that offers public school choice (educate your kids in a community that isn’t their own) that is a choice. Most communities don’t exercise that option but it does exist in some
Vouchers give choice to those who have the greater need of choice by helping fund the education of those who have less resources, rather than just a difference without a distinction

[Shipping up to Boston]

Vouchers give choice to those who have the greater need of choice by helping fund the education of those who have less resources, rather than just a difference without a distinction

Ok....that’s more descriptive than your first drop of just ‘there are no school choices’. I’m not here or there on any of it on this thread....just that it’s a family decision . The ignorant commentary that parents of public school students (many that sit in affluent communities as well) are somehow ‘less attentive’ to their kids than those in private schools. If these kids parents are any indication of what a valued education is supposed to look like.....with that type of commentary....obviously not much!

[jimbomaybe]

Ok.... If these kids parents are any indication of what a valued education is supposed to look like.....with that type of commentary....obviously not much!
Other than the empirical measure of SAT ?

[Shipping up to Boston]

Other than the empirical measure of SAT ?

I know many like to regurgitate on here....if you read all of my posts on this thread....my opinion on SAT....is well documented. Feel free to read them and all the others if you have the time.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Other than the empirical measure of SAT ?

You like to cherry pick posts....instead of posting in its entirety so all can see context. It’s an epidemic on this forum

My ‘quote’ was referring to and in the context of ignorant parents making comments about parenting habits of private school parents vs public school parents.

[justjim]

As mentioned in this Thread only about 1% of those who play sports make it to the professional sport level or D1 level. What about the other 99%? In some respect, aren’t we creating an artificial expectation in relying on sports for future income and employment for these students? Having said that, being able to play at the high school level does keep some in
School that otherwise might dropout.
Education is associated with lower poverty rates.

When a country has an educated workforce it tends to be more productive thus increasing the GDP of the country. As Joe Friday use to say “sorry, they’re just the facts.”

[blueash]

My point is/was D1 sports brings in more REVENUE than the academic departments that I listed.

Here is what you wrote :
.college sports are the economic engine for most D1 colleges/universities.....not the Sci Tech, Biology and History buildings on said campuses.
.
That is what you wrote but nice job trying to backtrack. An economic engine is not something that runs in the red. Buildings obviously don't produce revenue. If you wish to discuss whether D1 Sci/Tech and Biology departments produce income and actual profit for those D1 schools we can do that. I will concede that the buildings don't.

The overwhelming majority of D1 schools are state schools so trying to make some tangential argument that OSU is a state school is meaningless.

Analysis: Who is winning in the high-revenue world of college sports? | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports)
"In 2019, only 25 of 130 schools in the high-grossing Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) whose members are large, mostly public universities (with some exceptions such as Notre Dame, Northwestern, and Stanford) reported positive net revenues"

An economic engine is not something that loses money. As far as what departments bring in the most revenue... if that is your criteria for being an economic engine, sports is a tiny fraction of the income compared with health care delivery.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Here is what you wrote :

.
That is what you wrote but nice job trying to backtrack. An economic engine is not something that runs in the red. Buildings obviously don't produce revenue. If you wish to discuss whether D1 Sci/Tech and Biology departments produce income and actual profit for those D1 schools we can do that. I will concede that the buildings don't.

The overwhelming majority of D1 schools are state schools so trying to make some tangential argument that OSU is a state school is meaningless.

Analysis: Who is winning in the high-revenue world of college sports? | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports)
"In 2019, only 25 of 130 schools in the high-grossing Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) whose members are large, mostly public universities (with some exceptions such as Notre Dame, Northwestern, and Stanford) reported positive net revenues"

An economic engine is not something that loses money. As far as what departments bring in the most revenue... if that is your criteria for being an economic engine, sports is a tiny fraction of the income compared with health care delivery.

No backtracking.....doubling down. Again, other than the taxpayer.....at what i’ll concede is the larger, successful, state D1 programs. If you want to go down every other line item for every other academic dept as to receipts, awards, or finds....that’s for another thread. The ‘economic engine’ is not just the revenue discussed but the undisclosed and untold millions that those events, tv deals and exposure do for the universities as a whole. You don’t get it....right or wrong on priority, they’re not spending millions to see a Lego project or a lava volcano project. They’re renting cars, eating at restaurants and buying tickets to games that national media wants to cover. By doing so, at least on that Saturday, your campus is the center of the universe to millions. Everybody benefits. You may not like it....but it’s a fact!

[golfing eagles]

No backtracking.....doubling down. Again, other than the taxpayer.....at what i’ll concede is the larger, successful, state D1 programs. If you want to go down every other line item for every other academic dept as to receipts, awards, or finds....that’s for another thread. The ‘economic engine’ is not just the revenue discussed but the undisclosed and untold millions that those events, tv deals and exposure do for the universities as a whole. You don’t get it....right or wrong on priority, they’re not spending millions to see a Lego project or a lava volcano project. They’re renting cars, eating at restaurants and buying tickets to games that national media wants to cover. By doing so, at least on that Saturday, your campus is the center of the universe to millions. Everybody benefits. You may not like it....but it’s a fact!

I'm not going to get in the middle of this debate, however, I would like to point out that the physics departments of major universities might be studying supersymmetry, M string theory or loop quantum gravity but not playing with Legos or lava volcano models.

[Pairadocs]

Now we are going to pay High School kids to play sports. Most States, including Florida, will allow High School athletes to get paid for “their name, image and likeness”. Professional players can make as much as 700 million playing baseball. Some get over 100 million for batting 250/260. 400 million if you are a reasonable good golfer and play for LIV. College level sports will allow you to get payed and the best players are gravitating to the Big Conferences with the best players. The Olympics, the epitome of amateur sports, are professionals now. Well, I could go on but you get the picture. Is a “sports bubble” being created? Are sports more important than education?

Should eventually (once it gets going) be able to lower the high school graduation rate even more than the present, shameful, percentage (Villages High School is better than national average). Will turn some desperate/greedy parents from nurturing to ruthless task masters in pursuit of wealth. Just look at what parents have done to:cryin2::cryin2: minors in relation to "reality" TV. One more step down the path of destroying the family structure, support, nurturing.... one more step down the Road to Serfdom (economist Friedrich Hayek) ? A culture is destroyed by thousands of TINY steps ! Don't see this helping our deteriorating system of free public education. Just one opinion !

[Shipping up to Boston]

I'm not going to get in the middle of this debate, however, I would like to point out that the physics departments of major universities might be studying supersymmetry, M string theory or loop quantum gravity but not playing with Legos or lava volcano models.

There is a LEGO lab at a prominent Boston area University...but the volcano project I inserted to lighten the moment Doc! But point taken ! ;)

[crilemd]

ABSOLUTELY TRUE....WAS THE SAME IN MY MEDICAL SCHOOL...CLASS OF '60...
IT WILL ONLY WORSEN...
Crile Doscher MD

[jimbomaybe]

You like to cherry pick posts....instead of posting in its entirety so all can see context. It’s an epidemic on this forum

My ‘quote’ was referring to and in the context of ignorant parents making comments about parenting habits of private school parents vs public school parents.
Being identified as ignorant puts me in good company

[Shipping up to Boston]

Being identified as ignorant puts me in good company

Identifying a problem is the first step to correcting one!

[golfing eagles]

ABSOLUTELY TRUE....WAS THE SAME IN MY MEDICAL SCHOOL...CLASS OF '60...
IT WILL ONLY WORSEN...
Crile Doscher MD

The really, REALLY sad part is that there is so much more complexity and material to master now than in my class of 1984, which in turn was probably much more than in 1960. We need smarter, not dumber candidates, judged by qualifications and NOT demographics.

[Shipping up to Boston]

The really, REALLY sad part is that there is so much more complexity and material to master now than in my class of 1984, which in turn was probably much more than in 1960. We need smarter, not dumber candidates, judged by qualifications and NOT demographics.

Can I ask the question of both of you... was the practice of medicine easier from 1960 to the 1980's? In terms of colleagues that you worked with having those qualifications as you mention....but the administrative side as well (ie ; overcrowding, insurance mandates and processing, staffing in general etc)

[Topspinmo]

Now we are going to pay High School kids to play sports. Most States, including Florida, will allow High School athletes to get paid for “their name, image and likeness”. Professional players can make as much as 700 million playing baseball. Some get over 100 million for batting 250/260. 400 million if you are a reasonable good golfer and play for LIV. College level sports will allow you to get payed and the best players are gravitating to the Big Conferences with the best players. The Olympics, the epitome of amateur sports, are professionals now. Well, I could go on but you get the picture. Is a “sports bubble” being created? Are sports more important than education?

I don’t blame players, finely they get little money for making schools/districts richer.

Sports bubble going to break eventually when working class can’t afford to go.


Well, yes as long they win in football which is jackpot pays for all other sports In college. Just ask football coaches what they make compared to PhD. Professor.

Some colleges are switching conferences just to play football were the big bucks are with TV contracts.

Collage about collages making money it always has been. If student graduated with degree in field you can actually get job in now it’s big win. especially if got go for free Or government paid off student loans. After all it’s working stiffs that need to pay for higher education.

[Topspinmo]

I wonder if you would care to document your "fact"? You know, real numbers. I will go first. Ohio State leads the nation in income from sports In 2023 it received about 280 million income and spent 275 million on athletics so the University pocketed about 5 million in profit to use for non athletic purposes. Don't believe me... here is the report summary
(https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/ohio-state-buckeyes-5-things-to-know-about-athletic-department-finances/DJBRKQSY4VAH5KIEIOO22TAVLE/#:~:text=Ohio%20State%20reported%20a%20profit,the% 20nation%20in%20athletics%20revenue.)

Now that is pretty meaningless unless you know the total non-sports budget of OSU. If it is 10 million then the 5 million sports profit is huge. But the real fact, the truth is that for 2024 the budget for OSU is over 9 billion dollars. The 2024 and 2025 budget is here (https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/fy25_financial_plan_-_final.pdf).

So tell me again about how sports income is the economic engine for D1 schools when the biggest receiver of sports income gets almost no net income from its sports program.

OSU running a profit at all is not the usual. Here is the key quote from a PBS review (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-who-is-winning-in-the-high-revenue-world-of-college-sports) of the issue
"expenditures by college athletics departments are such that, with the exception of a small number of schools, athletic expenses surpass revenues at the overwhelming majority of Division I programs"

So your fact is not holding up very well to the light of actual information. Opinions based on false beliefs are a big thing in the country right now. See my tag line.

Student loans are the economic engines for colleges at taxpayers expense.

[Topspinmo]

Recently a man told me of taking his wife and two kids a Tiger preseason game in Lakeland and he dropped close to $1,000 on tickets and refreshments


And probably charged it equating to paying even more.

[jimbomaybe]

Identifying a problem is the first step to correcting one!
And I wish you well in that journey

[golfing eagles]

Can I ask the question of both of you... was the practice of medicine easier from 1960 to the 1980's? In terms of colleagues that you worked with having those qualifications as you mention....but the administrative side as well (ie ; overcrowding, insurance mandates and processing, staffing in general etc)

That is a very good, but also incredibly complex question that would require a very long answer. If I had to choose 3 sentinel events during the period of 1960-2000 they would be:
1) The passage of Medicare and Medicaid in 1966 along with the rise of 3rd party health insurance.
2) The explosion in the number of lawyers and the financial bonanza of medical malpractice litigation along with juries that could be manipulated into huge $$$ verdicts
3) The Libby Zion case against Lenox Hill that changed the face of medical education.

To briefly elaborate:

1) The government and insurers getting involved meant a huge bureaucracy and a system that only reimbursed for acceptably coded diagnoses. This led to an explosion in diagnostic technology, sub-specialists and cost, just so the "correct" 7 digit code could be used in billing. Our practice had 5 FTEs just dealing with these programs and insurers. As a result, a routine office visit in 1965 was $3, when I retired in 2015 it was $135---much higher than inflation in general.

2) The runaway jury verdicts and litigation for "mal-occurrence" rather than true "malpractice" has led to the defensive practice of medicine---ordering every test in the book to protect oneself from lawsuits. The last estimate I saw 10 years ago was $600 million/year in unnecessary testing.

3) The Libby Zion case alleged that this young woman who provided zero information to the residents upon her presentation with abdominal pain was "killed" because the resident was "tired". In fact, when he ordered Demerol for her pain there was no way to know she was on the MAO (mono amine oxidase inhibitor) Nardil, a powerful antidepressant, and they could create a fatal interaction. In the malpractice case the jury found in favor of Lenox Hill and the resident. However, her father was an editor of the NY Times and a friend of the governor Cuomo, and was able to push through legislation limiting the hours a resident could work.

In my opinion, this ultimately led to a change from taking care of the patient's problems to a "shift mentality" where doctors were watching the clock. Because of the tradition shift time, this led to the disgusting black humor motto of "keep them alive till 7:05", because then it was someone else's problem. We found this beginning about 2000 when we were hiring new physicians to our practice. It as amazing to the rest of us, 20 year veterans often stayed to work on practice issues, phone calls, and notes to 7 PM that the new guy was on his way home every day at 4:55.

And to answer the last part of the question----yes, in the early days we had physicians of equally good quality and were all on the same page as far as philosophy of patient care. We believed that our focus was on quality patient care and financial rewards would follow. The next generation, although we offered a great practice opportunity, was focused on reimbursement and time management. The worst were the orthopedists. If you went to one with shoulder and hip pain, they would tell you to pick one and make another appointment to evaluate the other. Then you would get billed 99205 for the first and 99214 for the second. (I realize those codes mean nothing to most of you, but they are pretty much stretching the line of overbilling)

That's long enough for now. I hope the other physicians respond as well.

[Shipping up to Boston]

That is a very good, but also incredibly complex question that would require a very long answer. If I had to choose 3 sentinel events during the period of 1960-2000 they would be:
1) The passage of Medicare and Medicaid in 1966 along with the rise of 3rd party health insurance.
2) The explosion in the number of lawyers and the financial bonanza of medical malpractice litigation along with juries that could be manipulated into huge $$$ verdicts
3) The Libby Zion case against Lenox Hill that changed the face of medical education.

To briefly elaborate:

1) The government and insurers getting involved meant a huge bureaucracy and a system that only reimbursed for acceptably coded diagnoses. This led to an explosion in diagnostic technology, sub-specialists and cost, just so the "correct" 7 digit code could be used in billing. Our practice had 5 FTEs just dealing with these programs and insurers. As a result, a routine office visit in 1965 was $3, when I retired in 2015 it was $135---much higher than inflation in general.

2) The runaway jury verdicts and litigation for "mal-occurrence" rather than true "malpractice" has led to the defensive practice of medicine---ordering every test in the book to protect oneself from lawsuits. The last estimate I saw 10 years ago was $600 million/year in unnecessary testing.

3) The Libby Zion case alleged that this young woman who provided zero information to the residents upon her presentation with abdominal pain was "killed" because the resident was "tired". In fact, when he ordered Demerol for her pain there was no way to know she was on the MAO (mono amine oxidase inhibitor) Nardil, a powerful antidepressant, and they could create a fatal interaction. In the malpractice case the jury found in favor of Lenox Hill and the resident. However, her father was an editor of the NY Times and a friend of the governor Cuomo, and was able to push through legislation limiting the hours a resident could work.

In my opinion, this ultimately led to a change from taking care of the patient's problems to a "shift mentality" where doctors were watching the clock. Because of the tradition shift time, this led to the disgusting black humor motto of "keep them alive till 7:05", because then it was someone else's problem. We found this beginning about 2000 when we were hiring new physicians to our practice. It as amazing to the rest of us, 20 year veterans often stayed to work on practice issues, phone calls, and notes to 7 PM that the new guy was on his way home every day at 4:55.

And to answer the last part of the question----yes, in the early days we had physicians of equally good quality and were all on the same page as far as philosophy of patient care. We believed that our focus was on quality patient care and financial rewards would follow. The next generation, although we offered a great practice opportunity, was focused on reimbursement and time management. The worst were the orthopedists. If you went to one with shoulder and hip pain, they would tell you to pick one and make another appointment to evaluate the other. Then you would get billed 99205 for the first and 99214 for the second. (I realize those codes mean nothing to most of you, but they are pretty much stretching the line of overbilling)

That's long enough for now. I hope the other physicians respond as well.

It’s a great first hand, boots on the ground breakdown . I appreciate the insight!

[ThirdOfFive]

The really, REALLY sad part is that there is so much more complexity and material to master now than in my class of 1984, which in turn was probably much more than in 1960. We need smarter, not dumber candidates, judged by qualifications and NOT demographics.
Blasphemy!! :ohdear:

[justjim]

That is a very good, but also incredibly complex question that would require a very long answer. If I had to choose 3 sentinel events during the period of 1960-2000 they would be:
1) The passage of Medicare and Medicaid in 1966 along with the rise of 3rd party health insurance.
2) The explosion in the number of lawyers and the financial bonanza of medical malpractice litigation along with juries that could be manipulated into huge $$$ verdicts
3) The Libby Zion case against Lenox Hill that changed the face of medical education.

To briefly elaborate:

1) The government and insurers getting involved meant a huge bureaucracy and a system that only reimbursed for acceptably coded diagnoses. This led to an explosion in diagnostic technology, sub-specialists and cost, just so the "correct" 7 digit code could be used in billing. Our practice had 5 FTEs just dealing with these programs and insurers. As a result, a routine office visit in 1965 was $3, when I retired in 2015 it was $135---much higher than inflation in general.

2) The runaway jury verdicts and litigation for "mal-occurrence" rather than true "malpractice" has led to the defensive practice of medicine---ordering every test in the book to protect oneself from lawsuits. The last estimate I saw 10 years ago was $600 million/year in unnecessary testing.

3) The Libby Zion case alleged that this young woman who provided zero information to the residents upon her presentation with abdominal pain was "killed" because the resident was "tired". In fact, when he ordered Demerol for her pain there was no way to know she was on the MAO (mono amine oxidase inhibitor) Nardil, a powerful antidepressant, and they could create a fatal interaction. In the malpractice case the jury found in favor of Lenox Hill and the resident. However, her father was an editor of the NY Times and a friend of the governor Cuomo, and was able to push through legislation limiting the hours a resident could work.

In my opinion, this ultimately led to a change from taking care of the patient's problems to a "shift mentality" where doctors were watching the clock. Because of the tradition shift time, this led to the disgusting black humor motto of "keep them alive till 7:05", because then it was someone else's problem. We found this beginning about 2000 when we were hiring new physicians to our practice. It as amazing to the rest of us, 20 year veterans often stayed to work on practice issues, phone calls, and notes to 7 PM that the new guy was on his way home every day at 4:55.

And to answer the last part of the question----yes, in the early days we had physicians of equally good quality and were all on the same page as far as philosophy of patient care. We believed that our focus was on quality patient care and financial rewards would follow. The next generation, although we offered a great practice opportunity, was focused on reimbursement and time management. The worst were the orthopedists. If you went to one with shoulder and hip pain, they would tell you to pick one and make another appointment to evaluate the other. Then you would get billed 99205 for the first and 99214 for the second. (I realize those codes mean nothing to most of you, but they are pretty much stretching the line of overbilling)

That's long enough for now. I hope the other physicians respond as well.

Thank you for your informative post.