Gopher Tortoise preserves

[Blueblaze]

Has anybody ever wondered why there are all those gopher tortoise "preserves" on the North side? It's really odd when you think about it. Why would you regularly mow a wildlife sanctuary, especially one dedicated to creatures that live on the ground? Are gopher tortoises even on the endangered list? There's another one dedicated to the "Burrowing Owl", which actually makes its nest IN the ground -- and yet, it too, is regularly mowed.

Is the Gopher Tortoise or Burrowing Owl endangered? No, but they are considered "threatened in Florida", which simply means their habitat is being replaced by human development. So, is a regularly-mowed field the natural habitat for gopher tortoises or burrowing owls? No, their habitat is the oak and pine forests that were cut down to build The Villages. In fact, both species are about as "threatened" as the forest they live in, and while Florida may have fewer wild forests, there is actually more forest land in North America today than there was when Columbus discovered it. So it's hard to imagine what is being conserved by placing a few tortoises or owls in a mowed field forbidden to residents. The "preserve" on Belle Meade, for instance, is so over-crowded that the tortoises regularly burrow under the fence and are found in the adjacent neighborhood, or crushed on Belle Meade. It's no mystery why they try to escape -- the mystery is what so many tortoises find to eat there. They are herbivores. So we're preserving them by forcing them to graze on mowed Bermuda grass? It seems a little cruel.

There are resident activities that could easily use those spaces without harming any tortoises -- certainly not as much as mowing them! I heard that the model airplane club was recently kicked out of the Polo Grounds after 15 years, because a 2 pound electric plane crashed 20ft from a polo horse. Meanwhile, there is a 50 acre gopher tortoise preserve just north of the Polo Grounds. Why weren't they flying there? How much damage can an electric model airplane do, just flying over a mowed field, even if someone actually crashed into a tortoise every 15 years? They live in the ground, for crying out loud! They have a hard shell! They don't even come out of their burrows until the afternoon!

And what harm would it do if some people chose to do their walking around a field full of tortoises, instead of the cart lane of a busy street? Maybe if we let people connect with the tortoises and get interested in preserving them, they'd get fed something a little closer to their natural diet than bermuda grass, once in a while!

It's just weird. I understand that there is land that can't be developed for some reason, and maybe the developer gets a tax break or something for those vacant lots, if he calls them a "preserve". But has anybody ever checked to see if they'd actually lose that benefit if the residents got to use them in limited ways as well? The Everglades is a preserve, too. But I can still drive through it, or even hunt snakes and alligators in it, with the proper permit!

[4$ALE]

Has anybody ever wondered why there are all those gopher tortoise "preserves" on the North side? It's really odd when you think about it. Why would you regularly mow a wildlife sanctuary, especially one dedicated to creatures that live on the ground? Are gopher tortoises even on the endangered list? There's another one dedicated to the "Burrowing Owl", which actually makes its nest IN the ground -- and yet, it too, is regularly mowed.

Is the Gopher Tortoise or Burrowing Owl endangered? No, but they are considered "threatened in Florida", which simply means their habitat is being replaced by human development. So, is a regularly-mowed field the natural habitat for gopher tortoises or burrowing owls? No, their habitat is the oak and pine forests that were cut down to build The Villages. In fact, both species are about as "threatened" as the forest they live in, and while Florida may have fewer wild forests, there is actually more forest land in North America today than there was when Columbus discovered it. So it's hard to imagine what is being conserved by placing a few tortoises or owls in a mowed field forbidden to residents. The "preserve" on Belle Meade, for instance, is so over-crowded that the tortoises regularly burrow under the fence and are found in the adjacent neighborhood, or crushed on Belle Meade. It's no mystery why they try to escape -- the mystery is what so many tortoises find to eat there. They are herbivores. So we're preserving them by forcing them to graze on mowed Bermuda grass? It seems a little cruel.

There are resident activities that could easily use those spaces without harming any tortoises -- certainly not as much as mowing them! I heard that the model airplane club was recently kicked out of the Polo Grounds after 15 years, because a 2 pound electric plane crashed 20ft from a polo horse. Meanwhile, there is a 50 acre gopher tortoise preserve just north of the Polo Grounds. Why weren't they flying there? How much damage can an electric model airplane do, just flying over a mowed field, even if someone actually crashed into a tortoise every 15 years? They live in the ground, for crying out loud! They have a hard shell! They don't even come out of their burrows until the afternoon!

And what harm would it do if some people chose to do their walking around a field full of tortoises, instead of the cart lane of a busy street? Maybe if we let people connect with the tortoises and get interested in preserving them, they'd get fed something a little closer to their natural diet than bermuda grass, once in a while!

It's just weird. I understand that there is land that can't be developed for some reason, and maybe the developer gets a tax break or something for those vacant lots, if he calls them a "preserve". But has anybody ever checked to see if they'd actually lose that benefit if the residents got to use them in limited ways as well? The Everglades is a preserve, too. But I can still drive through it, or even hunt snakes and alligators in it, with the proper permit!

:ohdear: You do know that piece of property is owned by District 2 ..... NOT THE DEVELOPER, RIGHT? :rolleyes:


Gopher Tortoise Rules and Regulations | FWC (https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/wildlife/gopher-tortoise/rules-and-regulations/)

[Bogie Shooter]

Maybe attend a district meeting and ask all those questions.

[kansasr]

:ohdear: You do know that piece of property is owned by District 2 ..... NOT THE DEVELOPER, RIGHT? :rolleyes:


Gopher Tortoise Rules and Regulations | FWC (https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/wildlife/gopher-tortoise/rules-and-regulations/)

Thank you for actually presenting facts in one of these discussions!

[Marathon Man]

Has anybody ever wondered why there are all those gopher tortoise "preserves" on the North side? It's really odd when you think about it. Why would you regularly mow a wildlife sanctuary, especially one dedicated to creatures that live on the ground? Are gopher tortoises even on the endangered list? There's another one dedicated to the "Burrowing Owl", which actually makes its nest IN the ground -- and yet, it too, is regularly mowed.

Is the Gopher Tortoise or Burrowing Owl endangered? No, but they are considered "threatened in Florida", which simply means their habitat is being replaced by human development. So, is a regularly-mowed field the natural habitat for gopher tortoises or burrowing owls? No, their habitat is the oak and pine forests that were cut down to build The Villages. In fact, both species are about as "threatened" as the forest they live in, and while Florida may have fewer wild forests, there is actually more forest land in North America today than there was when Columbus discovered it. So it's hard to imagine what is being conserved by placing a few tortoises or owls in a mowed field forbidden to residents. The "preserve" on Belle Meade, for instance, is so over-crowded that the tortoises regularly burrow under the fence and are found in the adjacent neighborhood, or crushed on Belle Meade. It's no mystery why they try to escape -- the mystery is what so many tortoises find to eat there. They are herbivores. So we're preserving them by forcing them to graze on mowed Bermuda grass? It seems a little cruel.

There are resident activities that could easily use those spaces without harming any tortoises -- certainly not as much as mowing them! I heard that the model airplane club was recently kicked out of the Polo Grounds after 15 years, because a 2 pound electric plane crashed 20ft from a polo horse. Meanwhile, there is a 50 acre gopher tortoise preserve just north of the Polo Grounds. Why weren't they flying there? How much damage can an electric model airplane do, just flying over a mowed field, even if someone actually crashed into a tortoise every 15 years? They live in the ground, for crying out loud! They have a hard shell! They don't even come out of their burrows until the afternoon!

And what harm would it do if some people chose to do their walking around a field full of tortoises, instead of the cart lane of a busy street? Maybe if we let people connect with the tortoises and get interested in preserving them, they'd get fed something a little closer to their natural diet than bermuda grass, once in a while!

It's just weird. I understand that there is land that can't be developed for some reason, and maybe the developer gets a tax break or something for those vacant lots, if he calls them a "preserve". But has anybody ever checked to see if they'd actually lose that benefit if the residents got to use them in limited ways as well? The Everglades is a preserve, too. But I can still drive through it, or even hunt snakes and alligators in it, with the proper permit!

OK. Now that one made me laugh.

[tophcfa]

They are a way to utilize land under power lines, that isn’t suitable for building homes but can be used to satisfy conservation requirements.

[4$ALE]

They are a way to utilize land under power lines, that isn’t suitable for building homes but can be used to satisfy conservation requirements.

:undecided: That may be true..... but I don't recall any preserves under power lines. There are several golf courses under power lines. The Tortoise preserve in question looks like a prime piece of real estate based on what is across BV from it. :ho:

[Blueblaze]

I don't think who owns them is all that relevant. I just think it's really weird that we have these grassland "preserves" for woodland creatures, that don't ordinarily live on the plains or eat grass. And it's really weird that these poor exiled woodland creatures that live in the ground are stuck in a "preserve" that gets mowed regularly. It just doesn't make much logical sense.

It's a lot of land that isn't really preserving anything, that could be easily used for other low-impact activities without bothering the "protected" creatures.

But, on the bright side, I was reading that black snakes use gopher tortoise holes to hatch their young, which probably explains why there are so many black snakes in my adjacent neighborhood. I'd much rather have snakes than palm rats!

[Cliff Fr]

I don't think who owns them is all that relevant. I just think it's really weird that we have these grassland "preserves" for woodland creatures, that don't ordinarily live on the plains or eat grass. And it's really weird that these poor exiled woodland creatures that live in the ground are stuck in a "preserve" that gets mowed regularly. It just doesn't make much logical sense.

It's a lot of land that isn't really preserving anything, that could be easily used for other low-impact activities without bothering the "protected" creatures.

But, on the bright side, I was reading that black snakes use gopher tortoise holes to hatch their young, which probably explains why there are so many black snakes in my adjacent neighborhood. I'd much rather have snakes than palm rats!

Gopher tortoises are considered a key stone species because other species such as the black snake you mentioned use their burrows

[Blueblaze]

Gopher tortoises are considered a key stone species because other species such as the black snake you mentioned use their burrows

Now we're getting somewhere! So THAT'S the reason they captured a bunch of them and stuck them in a little prisons all over of the North side! Our kindly benefactors were just encouraging snakes to breed, in order control the rat population! It all makes sense, now. In fact, I've seen foxes using the burrows, too, and even though foxes are a key repository for rabies, they also eat rats!

I knew there had to be a good reason for the tortoise torment! They're always thinking of us, aren't they!

[Ponygirl]

I own property that abutts the preserve and like it the way it is. I bought the property because of the beauty of the preserve

Dont need people disturbing it or destroying the beauty Lots and lots of other areas for people to fly airplanes or do other things

BTW there is a concern abt the drone that came down next to a polo pony. Didn’t injury the horse but could have caused the horse to bolt and injury other riders and horses

[jacksonla]

:undecided: That may be true..... but I don't recall any preserves under power lines. There are several golf courses under power lines. The Tortoise preserve in question looks like a prime piece of real estate based on what is across BV from it. :ho:

Our home backs onto a gopher turtle preserve (Chaparral Drive) with high power lines. A coyote hid her three pups in a turtle nest this spring and we enjoyed watching the pups play through our binoculars. Bald eagles nest nearby and hunt for prey in the foot high grasses. A wild turkey can be seen feeding in the grasses most days. Many butterflies, birds, rabbits and squirrels live here also. They feel safe because only occasionally does a human being enter this beautiful preserve.

[Rodneysblue]

There in is the rub. He wants to fly his plane.

[airstreamingypsy]

I have a Gopher Tortoise living under my front porch, he's been here about 2 years. My lawn is mowed, he grazes, where it's mowed. I use no poisons in the yard because he eats here.

[Blueblaze]

Our home backs onto a gopher turtle preserve (Chaparral Drive) with high power lines. A coyote hid her three pups in a turtle nest this spring and we enjoyed watching the pups play through our binoculars. Bald eagles nest nearby and hunt for prey in the foot high grasses. A wild turkey can be seen feeding in the grasses most days. Many butterflies, birds, rabbits and squirrels live here also. They feel safe because only occasionally does a human being enter this beautiful preserve.

Well, that would make sense if the grass was really a foot high, like you say. But it's not, in any of the preserves I have seen. It's mowed regularly -- which gives the lie the notion that it's a "preserve". And they are NOT pretty. There are just grassy plains interrupted by a tortoise mound and a red flag, every 10 yards or so.

Yes, my property is a block from a "preserve", too, and I love the fact that there is a big tract of undeveloped land near me. I just pity the poor creatures who are imprisoned there in order to call it a "preserve". And I wish it wasn't so ugly.

If it's really a preserve, it should remain unmowed, and include a few trees and natural food sources for the inmates. In fact, there should be a program to check on the tortoises and insure that they're getting a proper diet in their little prison, so maybe they won't be so desperate to escape.

On the other hand, if it's just a tax dodge, my question is, why can't the tax dodge be "preserved", while also allowing low-impact use of the land, the same way the everglades is preserved? I take a walk every day. It would be nice to walk around the perimeter of a pretty nature preserve, instead of facing traffic in the golf cart lane of a busy street like Belle Meade.

And just one more point. Did you notice how every single responder found something to oppose in my pointing out the absurdity of mowing a "preserve"? I've noticed that every time someone suggests an improvement or problem in our community, it is always met with vociferous resistance on this forum. Does an old mind have to be a closed mind?

[kansasr]

Well, that would make sense if the grass was really a foot high, like you say. But it's not, in any of the preserves I have seen. It's mowed regularly -- which gives the lie the notion that it's a "preserve". And they are NOT pretty. There are just grassy plains interrupted by a tortoise mound and a red flag, every 10 yards or so.

Yes, my property is a block from a "preserve", too, and I love the fact that there is a big tract of undeveloped land near me. I just pity the poor creatures who are imprisoned there in order to call it a "preserve". And I wish it wasn't so ugly.

If it's really a preserve, it should remain unmowed, and include a few trees and natural food sources for the inmates. In fact, there should be a program to check on the tortoises and insure that they're getting a proper diet in their little prison, so maybe they won't be so desperate to escape.

On the other hand, if it's just a tax dodge, my question is, why can't the tax dodge be "preserved", while also allowing low-impact use of the land, the same way the everglades is preserved? I take a walk every day. It would be nice to walk around the perimeter of a pretty nature preserve, instead of facing traffic in the golf cart lane of a busy street like Belle Meade.

And just one more point. Did you notice how every single responder found something to oppose in my pointing out the absurdity of mowing a "preserve"? I've noticed that every time someone suggests an improvement or problem in our community, it is always met with vociferous resistance on this forum. Does an old mind have to be a closed mind?
Since it is owned by a government entity, there is no tax “dodge”!

[4$ALE]

Since it is owned by a government entity, there is no tax “dodge”!

:laugh: Don't try to confuse the issue by using facts the OP has used "tax break" and "tax dodge" in 2 posts. You and I have both pointed out the FACT that preserves are owned by the districts. Either hasn't read it or doesn't believe it. :shrug:

[huntervonmanley]

Please do some real research before just typing stuff! Gophers(what us Floridians call them) Do Not live in shady oak tree forests. They live in open areas of sage grass, and pines and loose sandy soil. Never in my life seen a gopher hole in a shady area. Also, as someone else mentioned, many other animals use their holes for housing.

And the comment that there are more forests now than in the time of Columbus. Really? Maybe a higher number of planted trees, that's because we have obliterated lots of the natural forests. Planted pines does not constitute a forest. Here are the stats on forestation from the U.S. Forest Service...

In 1997, 302 million hectares— or 33 percent of the total land area of the United States— was in forest land. Today's forest land area amounts to about 70 percent of the area that was forested in 1630. Since 1630, about 120 million hectares of forest land have been converted to other uses—mainly agricultural.

[Blueblaze]

Please do some real research before just typing stuff! Gophers(what us Floridians call them) Do Not live in shady oak tree forests. They live in open areas of sage grass, and pines and loose sandy soil. Never in my life seen a gopher hole in a shady area. Also, as someone else mentioned, many other animals use their holes for housing.

And the comment that there are more forests now than in the time of Columbus. Really? Maybe a higher number of planted trees, that's because we have obliterated lots of the natural forests. Planted pines does not constitute a forest. Here are the stats on forestation from the U.S. Forest Service...

In 1997, 302 million hectares— or 33 percent of the total land area of the United States— was in forest land. Today's forest land area amounts to about 70 percent of the area that was forested in 1630. Since 1630, about 120 million hectares of forest land have been converted to other uses—mainly agricultural.

The discussion concerns gopher TORTOISES, not gophers. Gopher tortoise - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_tortoise)

If you skip down a few pages, you will discover that their natural is, and I quote: "...the most suitable habitats for gopher tortoise is the longleaf pine ecosystem..."

As far as arguments over the size of the forests 500 years ago vs. now, we could post competing sources all day to argue over one minor sentence, but I would rather discuss the point of the post, which is that the gopher tortoise "preserves" preserve nothing, and merely torment the inmates, while adding little value to The Villages, regardless of who "owns" them or why they were created.

If they are truly intended as nature preserves, then they should be treated as such. Instead of terrorizing the inmates with frequent mowing, the "preserves" should be improved to resemble the natural habitat of the animals they claim to preserve, which would have the side benefit of removing these ugly eyesores. They should be made into beautiful wild spaces, rather than just ugly enclosed fields where the inmates are tormented by mowing, poor diet, and overcrowding.

And if they are not truly nature preserves, then they should be made available for use by the Villagers whose home purchases paid for them.

[tophcfa]

104586The discussion concerns gopher TORTOISES, not gophers. Gopher tortoise - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_tortoise)

If you skip down a few pages, you will discover that their natural is, and I quote: "...the most suitable habitats for gopher tortoise is the longleaf pine ecosystem..."

As far as arguments over the size of the forests 500 years ago vs. now, we could post competing sources all day to argue over one minor sentence, but I would rather discuss the point of the post, which is that the gopher tortoise "preserves" preserve nothing, and merely torment the inmates, while adding little value to The Villages, regardless of who "owns" them or why they were created.

If they are truly intended as nature preserves, then they should be treated as such. Instead of terrorizing the inmates with frequent mowing, the "preserves" should be improved to resemble the natural habitat of the animals they claim to preserve, which would have the side benefit of removing these ugly eyesores. They should be made into beautiful wild spaces, rather than just ugly enclosed fields where the inmates are tormented by mowing, poor diet, and overcrowding.

And if they are not truly nature preserves, then they should be made available for use by the Villagers whose home purchases paid for them.

Below is a picture of one of the many gopher tortoises I see when walking our dog at an area near our Villages home. In this area, they have a choice of burrowing their underground nests in wooded and shaded tree areas, deep unmowed grass, or in shorter mowed and trampled down areas in full sunlight. Apparently they prefer very short to no grass, full sunlight, and are not disturbed by mowing and foot traffic, and an occasional tennis ball being dropped into their underground home by a dog.

Note: somehow, when I edited the post the picture showed up on top of the post?

[Ponygirl]

Blueblaze talks abt poor diet, mowed grass and habitat

Appears that diet is sufficient. Lots of big fat tortoises and have seen no dead ones

As mentioned above grassy pastures and fields are adequate habitat and you see lots of tortoise burrows in pastures when driving toward Eustis

I just looked outside this am and the grasses are quite high, perhaps nearly 2 feet and not recently mowed

[ton80]

You seem quite concerned. Will you be attending the next meeting of your CDD Board to discuss your concerns and make your suggestions?

From the unmentionable site An official is worried about the turtle population at a preserve in The Villages.

The turtles at the Harold Schwartz Wildlife Preserve will be among the topics at the upcoming Community Development District 2 question-and-answer session.

The Q-&-A meeting, hosted by CDD 2 Supervisor Tom Swiers, is set for 7 to 9 p.m. Tuesday, June 25 at the El Santiago Recreation Center.

Swiers and other residents have noticed turtles “escaping” from the preserve, which is owned by CDD 2. They fear an overpopulation of turtles in the preserve is fueling the exploration of some turtles, perhaps looking to branch out on new land.

“The turtles have no natural enemies in the preserve,” Swiers said.

But a new world awaits them once they leave the preserve.

In addition to the turtle population at the wildlife preserve, topics will include the SECO Energy pole rental increase and scheduled road resurfacing projects. Reb Benson, CDD 2’s representative on the Amenity Authority Committee, will also be on hand to answer questions.

For more information, call Swiers at (847) 951-2230 or send an email to Tom.Swiers@DistrictGov.org.

[Switter]

I live in Woodbury very close to the one on Belle Meade. I (selfishly, admittedly) am glad it's not developed, especially with houses. Belle Meade already seems to be a cut through from 42 to Buena Vista and traffic would be even worse if they built houses.

The turtles are escaping the pen though, lol. I just noticed yesterday a borrow outside the fence, right on the road. The hole is literally up against the concrete curb. I think they have even tried to cross the road. These are big turtles and if you hit one on a golf cart, it might be a problem.

[Nana2Teddy]

104586

Below is a picture of one of the many gopher tortoises I see when walking our dog at an area near our Villages home. In this area, they have a choice of burrowing their underground nests in wooded and shaded tree areas, deep unmowed grass, or in shorter mowed and trampled down areas in full sunlight. Apparently they prefer very short to no grass, full sunlight, and are not disturbed by mowing and foot traffic, and an occasional tennis ball being dropped into their underground home by a dog.

Note: somehow, when I edited the post the picture showed up on top of the post?
Interesting! This explains why at Fenney Nature Trail we regularly see yellow caution tape protecting the sunny sections of the sandy walking path that meanders around and through the shady areas under the many Live Oak trees. There’s always a sign posted next to these sectioned off areas warning walkers not to disturb the turtle nests, which are completely hidden underground.

[Cliff Fr]

Interesting! This explains why at Fenney Nature Trail we regularly see yellow caution tape protecting the sunny sections of the sandy walking path that meanders around and through the shady areas under the many Live Oak trees. There’s always a sign posted next to these sectioned off areas warning walkers not to disturb the turtle nests, which are completely hidden underground.

The female gopher turtle lays the eggs under the dirt at the mound around the entrance

[fdpaq0580]

Gopher Tortoise Preserves?
Delicious on toasted English muffin, and served with Lady Grey tea, for a light breakfast served poolside.

[tophcfa]

Gopher Tortoise Preserves?
Delicious on toasted English muffin, and served with Lady Grey tea, for a light breakfast served poolside.

Too dry and crunchy for senior citizens deteriorating teeth.

[fdpaq0580]

I have a Gopher Tortoise living under my front porch, he's been here about 2 years. My lawn is mowed, he grazes, where it's mowed. I use no poisons in the yard because he eats here.

Thank you, on his (or her) behalf.

[fdpaq0580]

Too dry and crunchy for senior citizens deteriorating teeth.

Silly. You're supposed to remove the shell! 😉😊