Charter School Student Diversity

[Pugchief]

The poor quality of the school system (The Villages may be an exception) drags down Florida's quality of life. Right now there are 8,000 unfilled teacher vacancies throughout the state. Several thousand substitutes are needed and the school year starts in 2 weeks. 33% of all Florida homes are owned by hedge funds and other corporations.

The public schools pretty much stink everywhere, other than some wealthier areas where parents actually raise their kids instead of pushing the job off on teachers. If the teachers' unions weren't so powerful, there would be a lot more charter schools. And private schools receiving public funding. Home schooling has seen a meteoric rise since Covid, when parents accidentally found out what was going on in public schools. The percentage of public school kids who can't read or do math at grade level, particularly in urban areas, is appalling.

[Aces4]

The public schools pretty much stink everywhere, other than some wealthier areas where parents actually raise their kids instead of pushing the job off on teachers. If the teachers' unions weren't so powerful, there would be a lot more charter schools. And private schools receiving public funding. Home schooling has seen a meteoric rise since Covid, when parents accidentally found out what was going on in public schools. The percentage of public school kids who can't read or do math at grade level, particularly in urban areas, is appalling.

I agree with this and think charter schools are important.

However, I believe charter schools should have to accommodate problem students, learning disabled, handicapped students also. These students should be evenly divided between all schools and level the pressure on public schools and private/charter schools.

[Bill14564]

I agree with this and think charter schools are important.

However, I believe charter schools should have to accommodate problem students, learning disabled, handicapped students also. These students should be evenly divided between all schools and level the pressure on public schools and private/charter schools.

Do you have some reason to believe the Villages Charter Schools do not accept those children when they otherwise qualify? I *thought* I saw budget lines for that kind of accommodation but it has been a while since I looked.

Those students will not be evenly divided between all schools unless they are evenly divided between the groups who qualify for the Charter Schools and those who do not. If the Charter Schools are discriminating against those students then that is wrong. If there are simply fewer of those children in the eligible population then that's just the way things are.

[Aces4]

Do you have some reason to believe the Villages Charter Schools do not accept those children when they otherwise qualify? I *thought* I saw budget lines for that kind of accommodation but it has been a while since I looked.

Those students will not be evenly divided between all schools unless they are evenly divided between the groups who qualify for the Charter Schools and those who do not. If the Charter Schools are discriminating against those students then that is wrong. If there are simply fewer of those children in the eligible population then that's just the way things are.

Yeah, it’s wrong. You may want to perform an online search regarding cherry picking students by charter schools.

[Pugchief]

I agree with this and think charter schools are important.

However, I believe charter schools should have to accommodate problem students, learning disabled, handicapped students also. These students should be evenly divided between all schools and level the pressure on public schools and private/charter schools.

Do you have some reason to believe the Villages Charter Schools do not accept those children when they otherwise qualify? I *thought* I saw budget lines for that kind of accommodation but it has been a while since I looked.

Those students will not be evenly divided between all schools unless they are evenly divided between the groups who qualify for the Charter Schools and those who do not. If the Charter Schools are discriminating against those students then that is wrong. If there are simply fewer of those children in the eligible population then that's just the way things are.

Can either of you articulate why you think think that's a good idea? I have several family members who are teachers and their experience is that "problem students" (which I assume you mean behavioral issues) are disruptive and ruin the learning environment for the non-problem students. I think children would thrive better in an optimum learning environment. I also believe that the level should be tailored as well, i.e., smarter kids should be in accelerated learning environments, average students in normal grade level, and struggling/learning disabled students in specially tailored programs with extra staff and extra educational help.

One of the craziest things I've seen lately in public education (and there are many) is the idea that since some kids can't read/math we should dumb down the curriculum so that the low kids don't feel bad. Some have removed honors and AP classes for this purpose. I don't see how removing a proper level of learning from the high kids helps the low kids. This reeks of the whole participation trophy nonsense and is turning our youth into a bunch of weak snowflakes.

What am I missing?

[Bill14564]

Yeah, it’s wrong. You may want to perform an online search regarding cherry picking students by charter schools.

There's a difference between picking the best and brightest and discriminating against eligible children who have disabilities. I'm not ready to condemn all charter schools based solely on accusations against a few.

[Aces4]

Can either of you articulate why you think think that's a good idea? I have several family members who are teachers and their experience is that "problem students" (which I assume you mean behavioral issues) are disruptive and ruin the learning environment for the non-problem students. I think children would thrive better in an optimum learning environment. I also believe that the level should be tailored as well, i.e., smarter kids should be in accelerated learning environments, average students in normal grade level, and struggling/learning disabled students in specially tailored programs with extra staff and extra educational help.

One of the craziest things I've seen lately in public education (and there are many) is the idea that since some kids can't read/math we should dumb down the curriculum so that the low kids don't feel bad. Some have removed honors and AP classes for this purpose. I don't see how removing a proper level of learning from the high kids helps the low kids. This reeks of the whole participation trophy nonsense and is turning our youth into a bunch of weak snowflakes.

What am I missing?

Perhaps I can explain why the playing field needs to be level. I’m PRO charter schools. However, when a public school district has greatly reduced funding due to charter school support and almost all the expensive, learning challenged students are in their classrooms, the equal education tips favorably for the charter schools.

To top it all off, parents of charter school students vote down necessary, basic funding of public schools. They can afford private and screw the rest of the students. I think if most people could witness the issues public schools deal with in their expenses for ALL students, they would wake up. The division of the classes of people is getting greater.

[dtennent]

I am a big believer in public education. Are there teachers who aren’t very good? Absolutely! However, there are many more who do a very good job. Having a home environment which supports education makes a huge difference in what a student will learn. I had parents who discussed with me all the subjects that I had in school. It wasn’t always fun but I went to bed thoroughly prepared for the next day.

I also believe in putting students into tracks according to their abilities. Not everyone should go to college. However, everyone should be able to read, write, and do basic math. Unfortunately, when charter schools take the cream of the students and reduce the funding for the rest of the students, public education takes a hit.

Finally, instead of looking at public education as a cost, we should look at it as an investment into the future of our country.

[Bill14564]

Can either of you articulate why you think think that's a good idea? I have several family members who are teachers and their experience is that "problem students" (which I assume you mean behavioral issues) are disruptive and ruin the learning environment for the non-problem students. I think children would thrive better in an optimum learning environment. I also believe that the level should be tailored as well, i.e., smarter kids should be in accelerated learning environments, average students in normal grade level, and struggling/learning disabled students in specially tailored programs with extra staff and extra educational help.

One of the craziest things I've seen lately in public education (and there are many) is the idea that since some kids can't read/math we should dumb down the curriculum so that the low kids don't feel bad. Some have removed honors and AP classes for this purpose. I don't see how removing a proper level of learning from the high kids helps the low kids. This reeks of the whole participation trophy nonsense and is turning our youth into a bunch of weak snowflakes.

What am I missing?

I believe you are asking me to articulate why I think it is a good idea that charter schools do not discriminate against against children with disabilities. That is simple - the charter schools are public schools funded by my school tax dollars and all children have a right to an education in our public schools.

If the charter school wants my tax dollars then it serves the public and does not discriminate.

If the school wants to discriminate or otherwise have selective/private admission then it can have selective/private funding and leave public tax dollars for public schools.

[Jayhawk]

However, I believe charter schools should have to accommodate problem students, learning disabled, handicapped students also. These students should be evenly divided between all schools and level the pressure on public schools and private/charter schools.

From the web:

A charter school is a public school that operates under a performance contract, or "charter," that gives it more flexibility than traditional public schools. Charter schools are exempt from many state and local regulations, but they must still adhere to public school regulations. They are also accountable for academic and financial results.

Charter schools are tuition-free and publicly funded, but they generally receive fewer dollars per pupil than district schools. They are run by a school leader or principal and an appointed board, and are overseen by an authorizer, which can be a state education agency, a higher education institution, or other entities.

Charter schools can: Tailor their curriculum, Choose their academic focus, Set their discipline policy, and Determine their staffing ratios.

Parents, teachers, or community members can initiate a charter petition, which is usually presented to and approved by a local school district governing board.

[BlueStarAirlines]

One of the craziest things I've seen lately in public education (and there are many) is the idea that since some kids can't read/math we should dumb down the curriculum so that the low kids don't feel bad. Some have removed honors and AP classes for this purpose. I don't see how removing a proper level of learning from the high kids helps the low kids. This reeks of the whole participation trophy nonsense and is turning our youth into a bunch of weak snowflakes.


This is exactly what happened in the school district we moved from. In fact, there is no longer a "F" for failing a course. Now the lowest one can get is a D-, which means its impossible to fail an individual course even if one gets a 0% every quiz or test. They have also removed student ranking, so graduating in the top X% of your class is no more.

The wealthier parents are doing everything from enrolling their kids in private schools to after school tutoring in advanced math, sciences, and languages. Most of the tutors are the teachers from the schools, so they are making more money by teaching after hours what was part of the regular curriculum.

[Aces4]

From the web:

A charter school is a public school that operates under a performance contract, or "charter," that gives it more flexibility than traditional public schools. Charter schools are exempt from many state and local regulations, but they must still adhere to public school regulations. They are also accountable for academic and financial results.

Charter schools are tuition-free and publicly funded, but they generally receive fewer dollars per pupil than district schools. They are run by a school leader or principal and an appointed board, and are overseen by an authorizer, which can be a state education agency, a higher education institution, or other entities.

Charter schools can: Tailor their curriculum, Choose their academic focus, Set their discipline policy, and Determine their staffing ratios.

Parents, teachers, or community members can initiate a charter petition, which is usually presented to and approved by a local school district governing board.

It all looks so pretty on paper, doesn’t it? More flexibility means more control and accountability for the student, which has been removed in public schools. Problem or high maintenance students are screened out of the “mainstream” pupil population in charter schools.

To top it off, private schools are primarily parochial which steers many parents away from registering their children.

Do I believe charter schools should be funded by the public? Yes, I do but only at 50% of the funding for public schools or allow public schools the same control advantages by which the private schools operate.

For the record, one of our three children, the youngest, was educated in a private, parochial school. Night and day difference in quality of education due to the discipline that was implemented there. We wished we would have sent all three of children to that private school.

But what is extremely obvious to us now is the fact there where no children with learning or behavior issues present.

Public schools deal with all students and need more financial support than private schools. Another solution if the private schools want equal funding, is to divide the challenged students between public and private schools.

[Bill14564]

It all looks so pretty on paper, doesn’t it? More flexibility means more control and accountability for the student, which has been removed in public schools. Problem or high maintenance students are screened out of the “mainstream” pupil population in charter schools.

To top it off, private schools are primarily parochial which steers many parents away from registering their children.

Do I believe charter schools should be funded by the public? Yes, I do but only at 50% of the funding for public schools or allow public schools the same control advantages by which the private schools operate.

For the record, one of our three children, the youngest, was educated in a private, parochial school. Night and day difference in quality of education due to the discipline that was implemented there. We wished we would have sent all three of children to that private school.

But what is extremely obvious to us now is the fact there where no children with learning or behavior issues present.

Public schools deal with all students and need more financial support than private schools. Another solution if the private schools want equal funding, is to divide the challenged students between public and private schools.

Charter schools are NOT private schools. Charter schools are public schools receiving public funding and enrolling the general public. Charter schools should receive the same public funding per child that any public school receives. Based on the Sumter County Schools budget, that appears to be the case here.

[Aces4]

Charter schools are NOT private schools. Charter schools are public schools receiving public funding and enrolling the general public. Charter schools should receive the same public funding per child that any public school receives. Based on the Sumter County Schools budget, that appears to be the case here.

Keep telling yourself that line.

Charter schools should, therefore, be required to intake ALL students.

[Bill14564]

Keep telling yourself that line.

Charter schools should, therefore, be required to intake ALL students.

What students do they NOT take?

Are you accusing the charter schools of selective admission or discrimination? That is illegal - gather the evidence and prove it.

[Normal]

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

[Topspinmo]

I am a big believer in public education. Are there teachers who aren’t very good? Absolutely! However, there are many more who do a very good job. Having a home environment which supports education makes a huge difference in what a student will learn. I had parents who discussed with me all the subjects that I had in school. It wasn’t always fun but I went to bed thoroughly prepared for the next day.

I also believe in putting students into tracks according to their abilities. Not everyone should go to college. However, everyone should be able to read, write, and do basic math. Unfortunately, when charter schools take the cream of the students and reduce the funding for the rest of the students, public education takes a hit.

Finally, instead of looking at public education as a cost, we should look at it as an investment into the future of our country.

Public education is bottomless money hole pit. Never will or have enough funding. I thought lottery was supposed fit budget problems? But lot of that money gets sucked away from public education. Public education isn’t problem it’s people making decisions. Like superintendents make 400 grand while teacher it pit verily makes living wage for their 9 1/2 months work while doing all the work. IMO there should be no charter schools or private schools and no superintendents should make more than president with 70% or higher retirement pay funded by taxpayers. Then there the teachers union influence and grab. IMO the whole education system need gutted and rethought cause we are not getting our money worth spent when compared to even 3rd world countries.

[Topspinmo]

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

I don’t know now but I had 1 teacher day up to grade 7.

Teachers do their job, incapable parents or lack of responsibility and some kids just can’t learn or as quick so they get overwhelmed left behind. Teachers blame parents. Parents blame teachers in just may be comprehension problem, not everybody can be world influencers, but everybody can develop skill if given the chance if they have will power.

[Bogie Shooter]

I agree with this and think charter schools are important.

However, I believe charter schools should have to accommodate problem students, learning disabled, handicapped students also. These students should be evenly divided between all schools and level the pressure on public schools and private/charter schools.

If they meet the qualifications.

[Bogie Shooter]

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

And how those parents viewed education as they were growing up. Dumb parents will have dumb children!

[Stu from NYC]

This is exactly what happened in the school district we moved from. In fact, there is no longer a "F" for failing a course. Now the lowest one can get is a D-, which means its impossible to fail an individual course even if one gets a 0% every quiz or test. They have also removed student ranking, so graduating in the top X% of your class is no more.

The wealthier parents are doing everything from enrolling their kids in private schools to after school tutoring in advanced math, sciences, and languages. Most of the tutors are the teachers from the schools, so they are making more money by teaching after hours what was part of the regular curriculum.

Dumbing down the curriculum and results will mean the death of us as a country. Students have to be challenged

[manaboutown]

This is exactly what happened in the school district we moved from. In fact, there is no longer a "F" for failing a course. Now the lowest one can get is a D-, which means its impossible to fail an individual course even if one gets a 0% every quiz or test. They have also removed student ranking, so graduating in the top X% of your class is no more.

The wealthier parents are doing everything from enrolling their kids in private schools to after school tutoring in advanced math, sciences, and languages. Most of the tutors are the teachers from the schools, so they are making more money by teaching after hours what was part of the regular curriculum.

This is a tragedy of life in the USA today.

[blueash]

I am amazed at the wrong information presented here. Charter school are not simply public schools operated by a person or group. They are entirely free to decline admission to anyone who doesn't fit their criteria. As they have their own curriculum and discipline that can, and usually does, differ from the public school system they effectively exclude the difficult student.

One misbehavior, gone. Parents don't actively support the school, gone. Have autism, we don't have a program for that, gone.

For example our local Villages Charter (https://www.tvcs.org/centralOffice/parentalInvolvement/parentalInvolvement.asp)school has this rule:

"Parent Involvement Information: Qualifying parent(s) (father/mother/stepfather/stepmother) and/or spouse (or designated adult if single parent) must complete *20 hours every year for each school on campus where children are enrolled. Parent involvement is mandatory for your child to attend The Villages Charter School"

Do they provide all the special ed services a regular public school is required to offer? No

"While VCS does not provide all services or programs for students with disabilities, the Sumter County School District(SCSD) has programming available for any student need."

Every complaint about charter school effectively draining the public schools of the easily educated student and leaving behind those students with behavior problems, learning problems, disinterested parents, significant autism.... etc. is easily proven just by reading the school website. And anyone who thinks this is not what is dooming the public schools is ignoring reality.

[golfing eagles]

I am amazed at the wrong information presented here. Charter school are not simply public schools operated by a person or group. They are entirely free to decline admission to anyone who doesn't fit their criteria. As they have their own curriculum and discipline that can, and usually does, differ from the public school system they effectively exclude the difficult student.

One misbehavior, gone. Parents don't actively support the school, gone. Have autism, we don't have a program for that, gone.

For example our local Villages Charter (https://www.tvcs.org/centralOffice/parentalInvolvement/parentalInvolvement.asp)school has this rule:

"Parent Involvement Information: Qualifying parent(s) (father/mother/stepfather/stepmother) and/or spouse (or designated adult if single parent) must complete *20 hours every year for each school on campus where children are enrolled. Parent involvement is mandatory for your child to attend The Villages Charter School"

Do they provide all the special ed services a regular public school is required to offer? No

"While VCS does not provide all services or programs for students with disabilities, the Sumter County School District(SCSD) has programming available for any student need."

Every complaint about charter school effectively draining the public schools of the easily educated student and leaving behind those students with behavior problems, learning problems, disinterested parents, significant autism.... etc. is easily proven just by reading the school website. And anyone who thinks this is not what is dooming the public schools is ignoring reality.

So what?????? Why should any school hold back the best and the brightest to cater to the lowest common denominator????? Do we really need to "mainstream" behavior problems and autism into the same classroom and track as students that are motivated to learn and excel???

Here is an example from 25 years ago in Central NY: A mother successfully sued the school district to "mainstream" her daughter into a regular classroom. The problem was that the "student" was so developmentally disabled that she was non-verbal, no bladder or bowel control, unable to even feed herself, and was breathing through a trach that required suctioning every 3-4 minutes by the full time nurse that accompanied her, also paid for by the district. Why?? So "Mom" did not need to babysit her daughter or pay for help during school hours. And of course there was absolutely no potential for this unfortunate girl to learn anything.

Believe me, the other parents were outraged, their kids were in the lowest performing classroom in the district, and many kids did not want to go to school because of the stench. The teacher had the highest absentee rate in the district as well.

So I don't care how "enlightened" people feel about "mainstreaming" problem children---it is a BAD IDEA. There are plenty of special programs for such kids

[LeRoySmith]

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.


I'm confident its the parenting. I have 3 straight A students, if it weren't for the support and push from home I think they'd have all been average at best. I didn't accept poor grades and my kids knew it, they also were not afraid to come to me and say they weren't getting it and we'd work through it together. All of them graduated with honors.

I spent a considerable about of time as a loaned executive for The United Way and several of their programs are built around getting kids ready to learn or getting them to grade level math and reading. I was blown away at the poor parent / student relationship and how it impacted the school. We could literally see the impact progress through the years as we put the different programs in place. So many kids enter kindergarten not ready to learn, most 2nd graders couldn't or wouldn't read, many 3rd graders are not at grade level in reading or math. I cant recall the statistics exactly but it is something like 20% of 3rd graders not at grade level won't finish high school, 60% of 6th graders not at grade level will not graduate high school. Many of those go on to get a GED but that's just not the same as a successful lower education. All this was from midwest schools in the 80s and 90s, I don't think things have improved much.

[Pugchief]

Dumbing down the curriculum and results will mean the death of us as a country. Students have to be challenged

But, but, but....."feelings".

[Pugchief]

So what?????? Why should any school hold back the best and the brightest to cater to the lowest common denominator????? Do we really need to "mainstream" behavior problems and autism into the same classroom and track as students that are motivated to learn and excel???

Here is an example from 25 years ago in Central NY: A mother successfully sued the school district to "mainstream" her daughter into a regular classroom. The problem was that the "student" was so developmentally disabled that she was non-verbal, no bladder or bowel control, unable to even feed herself, and was breathing through a trach that required suctioning every 3-4 minutes by the full time nurse that accompanied her, also paid for by the district. Why?? So "Mom" did not need to babysit her daughter or pay for help during school hours. And of course there was absolutely no potential for this unfortunate girl to learn anything.

Believe me, the other parents were outraged, their kids were in the lowest performing classroom in the district, and many kids did not want to go to school because of the stench. The teacher had the highest absentee rate in the district as well.

So I don't care how "enlightened" people feel about "mainstreaming" problem children---it is a BAD IDEA. There are plenty of special programs for such kids

Yep. Agree 100%

[Velvet]

As a schoolteacher I have found that 1 “special needs” child will take away my time from the 25 other, “normal” students. So because of the “rights” of 1 person, 25 others had to suffer. How is this fair?

[Normal]

As a schoolteacher I have found that 1 “special needs” child will take away my time from the 25 other, “normal” students. So because of the “rights” of 1 person, 25 others had to suffer. How is this fair?

All are not created equal in cognitive abilities. It isn’t fair. Students were mainstreamed to save money. The taxpayers did not want to spend more, and an excuse was given with special needs student law suits to group everyone together..

You still see challenges in curriculum, advanced classes are being ruled out in some districts in both math and English. It seems it isn’t because they want to be fair; it is more in line with school districts not having to have more classes and hire more teachers. Final demarcation is the cheap taxpayer and the money conscious school boards both having to be appeased.

Full inclusion has ruined many public school districts. Mainstream average and advanced students are given less individual time because of special needs consumption.

[Aces4]

=Bogie Shooter;2355105]If they meet the qualifications.

What qualifications? Born on the right side of the track? Every child doesn't deserve an education if they don't have the "right" qualifications?

[Aces4]

What students do they NOT take?

Are you accusing the charter schools of selective admission or discrimination? That is illegal - gather the evidence and prove it.

You gather the evidence they don't discriminate. A quick online search regarding discrimination in charter school admissions may assist you in seeing the light.

[Bill14564]

You gather the evidence they don't discriminate. A quick online search regarding discrimination in charter school admissions may assist you in seeing the light.

Prove a negative? Yeah, right. That ain't the way it works; there is no wrongdoing unless someone can provide evidence of wrongdoing and emphatic assertions are not proof.

[Aces4]

Prove a negative? Yeah, right. That ain't the way it works; there is no wrongdoing unless someone can provide evidence of wrongdoing and emphatic assertions are not proof.

If you lack the energy to perform the research, I can’t help you. I’m not about to start providing links to all the assessments.

If you truly believe most charter schools do not discriminate, that is your prerogative. Nothing like turning a blind eye…

[Aces4]

Prove a negative? Yeah, right. That ain't the way it works; there is no wrongdoing unless someone can provide evidence of wrongdoing and emphatic assertions are not proof.

Try “charter schools sued for discrimination” for your beginning search. And these are only the people who have the time or resources for lawsuits.

[Bill14564]

Try “charter schools sued for discrimination” for your beginning search. And these are only the people who have the time or resources for lawsuits.

And you can try "Driver arrested in the Villages" or "Villager arrested for drugs." While you will get many hits, that doesn't describe the majority of the Villagers.

Do I believe every single charter school acts appropriately? Not even the tooth fairy can convince me of that. But I do not believe it is legal for charter schools to discriminate and I don't believe that all charter schools break that law.

[blueash]

So what?????? Why should any school hold back the best and the brightest to cater to the lowest common denominator????? Do we really need to "mainstream" behavior problems and autism into the same classroom and track as students that are motivated to learn and excel???

Here is an example from 25 years ago in Central NY: A mother successfully sued the school district to "mainstream" her daughter into a regular classroom. The problem was that the "student" was so developmentally disabled that she was non-verbal, no bladder or bowel control, unable to even feed herself, and was breathing through a trach that required suctioning every 3-4 minutes by the full time nurse that accompanied her, also paid for by the district. Why?? So "Mom" did not need to babysit her daughter or pay for help during school hours. And of course there was absolutely no potential for this unfortunate girl to learn anything.

Believe me, the other parents were outraged, their kids were in the lowest performing classroom in the district, and many kids did not want to go to school because of the stench. The teacher had the highest absentee rate in the district as well.

So I don't care how "enlightened" people feel about "mainstreaming" problem children---it is a BAD IDEA. There are plenty of special programs for such kids

What a non-response to my post. Did I say anything about mainstreaming? Did I advocate for having a student in a classroom who is disruptive. I did not so don't put words in my mouth. What I said, since you didn't read carefully, is that Charter Schools are cherry picking students and leaving the difficult students to the real public schools. Then members of a certain party love to point out how Charter Schools do such a better job of having well behaved classrooms and higher graduation rates.

Well of course they do when you won't admit problem students. West Point has better behavior than Florida State and a better graduation rate.

Then we get bombarded with comments about how we should stop paying teachers as the product they produce is no good. We should cut funding for public schools because Charters do it cheaper. We should vote against school funding in districts that depend on it. All part of an intentional or unintentional plan to destroy one of the bedrocks of America, a free education.

And to answer your question. I do not support the mainstreaming of students who do not demonstrably benefit from it and whose mainstreaming interferes with the ability of the other students to learn. We should go back to Special Ed programs, SBD classes, etc. where very well paid teachers, speech therapists, OT, PT etc, who are equipped by training and inclination to teach these more challenging students work their magic. And we should require all school systems to provide these programs and not leave it to the local taxpayer to approve.

Lastly your example of a specific child being mainstreamed fails the smell test. At least your assertion that she was mainstreamed so her mother didn't have to babysit. If that child were in a special class and not mainstreamed mom would have had no "babysitting" responsibility either. So don't accuse her of things that did not motivate her, if your story is even real.

[golfing eagles]

What a non-response to my post. Did I say anything about mainstreaming? Did I advocate for having a student in a classroom who is disruptive. I did not so don't put words in my mouth. What I said, since you didn't read carefully, is that Charter Schools are cherry picking students and leaving the difficult students to the real public schools. Then members of a certain party love to point out how Charter Schools do such a better job of having well behaved classrooms and higher graduation rates.

Well of course they do when you won't admit problem students. West Point has better behavior than Florida State and a better graduation rate.

Then we get bombarded with comments about how we should stop paying teachers as the product they produce is no good. We should cut funding for public schools because Charters do it cheaper. We should vote against school funding in districts that depend on it. All part of an intentional or unintentional plan to destroy one of the bedrocks of America, a free education.

And to answer your question. I do not support the mainstreaming of students who do not demonstrably benefit from it and whose mainstreaming interferes with the ability of the other students to learn. We should go back to Special Ed programs, SBD classes, etc. where very well paid teachers, speech therapists, OT, PT etc, who are equipped by training and inclination to teach these more challenging students work their magic. And we should require all school systems to provide these programs and not leave it to the local taxpayer to approve.

Lastly your example of a specific child being mainstreamed fails the smell test. At least your assertion that she was mainstreamed so her mother didn't have to babysit. If that child were in a special class and not mainstreamed mom would have had no "babysitting" responsibility either. So don't accuse her of things that did not motivate her, if your story is even real.

First of all, I was not responding solely to you, but to the thread in general.

Secondly, please check your olfactory sense. That was an absolutely 100% true story. This unfortunate child was not a candidate for ANY type of classroom, "special ed" or other. She was incapable of learning anything, and by my description you already knew that. The choice was she stayed at home or abuse the legal system into turning a classroom into a babysitter. Mom admitted that she did not want to stay at home with her daughter or pay for caretakers, and some idiot judge agreed with her. I did not assign motive to her actions, SHE DID. I was there, YOU were not. Don't EVER imply that I prevaricate.

But on another note, check out the thread on a physician office visit to a TV screen in the next room---unbelievable!