TV concept struggling as it grows and ages.

[Craig Vernon]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

[Bogie Shooter]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?

[Craig Vernon]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?

Doomsday? An observation about current events. My wife and I love TV's but there are problems developing that are worth discussing. Sorry you don't think so. Be Well!

[Two Bills]

.......and one day the present newer areas will have the aging population.
Oldie pass on, and younger ones replace.
A bit like any city or town

[Papa_lecki]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

Yes, it sucks here.
Houses are falling down, the squares are a ghosttown, no one is there.

This place has always had part time residents. You don’t think the business model is set up for that?

Seriously, stop believing what you read. You aren’t even here. TOTV represents probably 5% of the Villagers. The VLOGGERS, same thing, they need to complain to get views, no one will watch a YouTube video saying everything is great.

[Bilyclub]

Gators and WOB were both dumps and the chains were in financial trouble. It seems the clean and efficient restaurants are doing pretty good.

[dewilson58]

Actually the development path is quite different.

As areas get older, more full time residents live in the area.

New area homes are purchased by part-timers (younger) and investors.
As the younger owners age, they quite being snows and become full timers.

I don't have stats, but North of 466 has less (%'age wise) part-timers vs South of 44.

:mornincoffee:

[Topspinmo]

If business can make profit it doomed look around it happens everywhere. I feel it’s more managerial problem and choice of product.

[ThirdOfFive]

Some time back I recall reading in another publication that such predictions of doom-and-gloom seem to be as regular as snowbird season and complaints about bad driving. There will always be those who see the glass as half-empty.

One of the things that fascinates me about them is the inevitable referral to "an aging population", as if that fact spells death for this-or-that area or business. Yeah--TV has an "aging population". But the result of aging is death. And as people die, they are replaced with younger folks. In our neighborhood we've had five families move in this year that I know of: two of them has one or both spouses still working remotely. the rest are younger retirees. The Village we live in came online in the late 1990s. My guess is that the average age of Villagers in our little corner of heaven is younger now than at any other time in the past ten years.

The other fallacy is "growth". As in mushrooms apparently. But the fact of the matter is that The Villages doesn't grow up. It grows OUT. Individual villages with their own individual character and architecture are pretty much constant. My guess is that, again using our Village as an example, if you went back in time to, say, Y2K and took a drive through it, virtually the ONLY difference you'd see between now and then is that the cars look somewhat different.

As to that "footprint" growing larger, in terms of space anyway, that is admittedly having an impact. But population outgrowing infrastructure, especially in a place growing as fast as TV (or Florida in general, for that matter) is natural. You won't see businesses being developed or medical services being implemented on merely the EXPECTATION of growth. The growth has to actually happen first. Infrastructure (services, roads, utilities, etc.) then is developed. But the settled, older neighborhoods aren't experiencing that. The last major infrastructure expansion here was the widening of 27/441. Businesses come and businesses go, but the restaurants closing in Spanish Springs are being replaced by restaurants that are significantly BETTER in most respects than the ones that have closed, and are doing commensurately better than the shuttered ones did. Don't confuse the results of healthy competition with "shrinkage" caused by whatever imagined reason.

TV is healthy. And as expansion continues and more and more opportunities and services are created, is getting healthier.

[Bill14564]

.......and one day the present newer areas will have the aging population.
Oldie pass on, and younger ones replace.
A bit like any city or town

As it should be.

I would watch the time-on-market of pre-owned homes as an indication of a problem. As long as there are new buyers and areas maintain their population the Villages will survive. If there is too little to draw new buyers into older areas and then too few customers to support the businesses then the area will begin to die out.

As far as businesses in the squares go, competition and turnover can be a good thing. Spanish Springs sits on the heavily commercialized 27/441. With that kind of competition it is really no wonder that businesses struggle to exist in a high-rent area, especially with frugal customers who make a sport out of complaining.

World of Beer recently closed in Spanish Springs but they also closed 13 other locations and filed for bankruptcy. That company had issues beyond the size of its customer base in the northern part of the Villages.

Sonny's closed in Lake Sumter but have there been several other closures there?

[Papa_lecki]

The recent post about Winn Dixie in LSL has nothing to do with demographics or spending. Aldi bought Winn Dixie and apparently is transition brands. It’s business.

[4$ALE]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?

:rolleyes:I was wondering too. As a side note, I don't think he knows he came off that way (as a doomsday forecaster.) Anyway, it sure will be nice to have another Village Expert moving here ....... all the ones from Taxsachusetts and Boston must be exhausted from sharing all their knowledge with us. I also place him in the same category as ConeyIsBabe and Schaumburg. I often wonder if they ever made it here full time. :shrug:

[Stu from NYC]

This place is not perfect but do not know of a better place for us.

Businesses come and go, another one will come to replace them.

[MsPCGenius]

For me..... I don't care for the many boutique shops that are offered within the squares, and so I don't shop there. Women's clothing is very junior league/preppy and much too expensive for my taste. Trendy home decor also expensive.

I couldn't resist a fall outfit at Brownwood (Evelyn & Arthur) for an upcoming trip. I bit the bullet and paid way too much for stretch pants ($80) and long-sleeve sweater ($146). It is quality material that fit well and I looked great in it :D, but never again will I pay that much... :jester:

My Villages lifestyle clothing is more Bealls, Kohl's, etc. Looking forward to having a Target closer to home. Would be nice when shops are vacated that they bring in reasonably priced shopping options.

[CarlR33]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?No kidding. Random posts now and again about the state of the Villages from a non resident. Either jump onboard or stop playing from afar? Even the wizard of oz had issues, LOL

[billethkid]

Florida is what it is and The Villages discovered a very effective model for the sellers and the buyers.

FL is a location that has been under development for many, MANY years.....and in our "surrounding" area.....by The Villages (thankfully).....and if not The Villages then for sure some other developer.

[thelegges]

OP I don’t think your intention was to cause the uproar of extreme north compared to new south, but to new residents with very little first hand knowledge it causes a bad light on older areas. With short stays, and not yet a resident, your views are much different than residents who have lived here for multiple years.

In SS area’s, one thing you will find, as one ages you need less of everything, because you already own it, or gave it away. It’s a different vibe, with older gens mixing with the newer residents moving into homes vacated from aging or death. In 10 years the resident average age in SS could be less than say LSL or Brownwood, because they also will be aging in place.

Retail comes and goes no matter what part of the country you live in. Business fail, not because of seasonal flux, but poor business plan, or parent company dissolving. The old Red Lobster is already taking on new life, as is the locations in SS. When you have lived in TV for 10-20 years if one is lucky, you will see change just like my grandparents did when the horse and buggy became obsolete to the auto industry.

[Bogie Shooter]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

Just wondering if you got what you were looking for?

[Aces4]

Maybe if you keep after him he'll learn only to post glamourous thought about The Villages.:ohdear:

To the OP, your observations are astute and when one has an outside clarity they can see things others can't. You're right, Spanish Springs is a shell of commercial activity it was back in the early 2000's. I believe in time, which most of us won't see, this will be just another Florida development for all ages.

Don't get your feather's up, as I said, I believe it will be years before that transition happens but nothing stays the same. For now, The Villages is what it is, an enclave of old people with cart paths and sameness. There are activities available and at this age, it is enough for many. But do bring your wallet!:)

[npwalters]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

Just ignore the "if you don't think everything is perfect here what the hell is wrong with you" responses. Your observations are valid and are good food for thought. Nothing wrong questioning the status quo.

The older areas south of 441 are actually getting younger every year. Our small cul de sac has had 6 older people die or move out in the last 5 years and all the homes were snapped up by younger owners.

[Pairadocs]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?

Did you really read the comments as a "dooms day" prediction ? I understand how you interpreted the remarks, but I read it twice and think they might have just been remarking on what they have observed for a distance, and possible a few personal visits ? I didn't take the remarks to mean they are second guessing their decision to occupy their Villages home full time, just trying to get a "feeling" for what is actually going on. I'm sure we've all noticed the ever shifting patterns, but, seems to me that a fair number of "younger" (55-65) people are also moving into homes in the villages near Spanish Springs, the renovation and remodeling businesses seem to be booming (and I can see why, the models used in the villages around Spanish Springs are awesome, have features the newest models lack), and though many businesses, especially restaurants, have closed, new ones have taken their place and seem to be doing well !

[Stu from NYC]

Did you really read the comments as a "dooms day" prediction ? I understand how you interpreted the remarks, but I read it twice and think they might have just been remarking on what they have observed for a distance, and possible a few personal visits ? I didn't take the remarks to mean they are second guessing their decision to occupy their Villages home full time, just trying to get a "feeling" for what is actually going on. I'm sure we've all noticed the ever shifting patterns, but, seems to me that a fair number of "younger" (55-65) people are also moving into homes in the villages near Spanish Springs, the renovation and remodeling businesses seem to be booming (and I can see why, the models used in the villages around Spanish Springs are awesome, have features the newest models lack), and though many businesses, especially restaurants, have closed, new ones have taken their place and seem to be doing well !

This is a great place to live but nothing in the world is perfect. Some people feel we have no right to complain about anything here.

[Bogie Shooter]

Did you really read the comments as a "dooms day" prediction ? I understand how you interpreted the remarks, but I read it twice and think they might have just been remarking on what they have observed for a distance, and possible a few personal visits ? I didn't take the remarks to mean they are second guessing their decision to occupy their Villages home full time, just trying to get a "feeling" for what is actually going on. I'm sure we've all noticed the ever shifting patterns, but, seems to me that a fair number of "younger" (55-65) people are also moving into homes in the villages near Spanish Springs, the renovation and remodeling businesses seem to be booming (and I can see why, the models used in the villages around Spanish Springs are awesome, have features the newest models lack), and though many businesses, especially restaurants, have closed, new ones have taken their place and seem to be doing well !

As you point out as well as many others, the other side of the coin. The reality things are nothing akin to what OP is so worried about. Maybe “dooms day” was a little too strong. I agree with your assessment.:wave:

[MrFlorida]

All I need is an Aldi,Walmart. And Home Depot. I can cook for myself, fix stuff myself, and don't need fancy boutiques...to each his own.

[shaw8700@outlook.com]

This place is not perfect but do not know of a better place for us.

Businesses come and go, another one will come to replace them.

And that’s the answer in a nutshell.

We don’t need any more people to make up false claims when they’re not even here. When I was looking for a different retirement place than the one I was in, I looked in several states and none of them had a tenth of what this place offers. And with the multimodal paths that all the way from north to south, l say it’s incredible.

People need other things to write about.

[Pairadocs]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

Been full time residents for many years. Built expanded designer in LSL area as soon as it opened. Have actually NOT seen the "struggling" you describe ??? It was a bit difficult during the "pandemic", but fortunately Florida had few, and very short lived, restrictions. But while there were businesses closed, and continue to close, it's never long before a new one moves in, including Spanish Springs (which was the first of all the "town squares"). As an example, in our immediate neighborhood (about 20 year's old) near LSL, this summer 2 couples in their 80's have sold out and moved into "condo like" senior residences. The homes were both sold in 3 months or less, and are now occupied full time by recent retirees (ages58 and 63). Relatives who live in Village of El Santiago report similar in their neighborhood. I would certainly not foresee this development becoming a seasonal community where businesses close down for the "season" as you put it. There is a HUGE difference in closing down "beach" businesses in beach towns of northern states (sandwich stands, equipment rentals, etc.) and shutting down country clubs, hotels, restaurants, and so on. I don't know how many NEW restaurants are under construction right now, but "A LOT". Another thing you might consider, Costco, Sam's and B.J.'s are in The Villages. If you know anything about those corporations, you know they would definitely NOT be building in some "seasonal in land beach" type community...LOL !

[tophcfa]

Interesting thread. The OP has visited the Villages several times and has been doing extensive due diligence about where he wants to spend a good chunk his hard earned retirement savings. He is very wise to consider both the positives and potential issues of wherever he chooses to make his new home. People are often criticized on this forum for not doing their due diligence and then complaining later about things they should have know about beforehand. Ironically, some are now questioning him for trying to make such a big decision eyes wide open. I applaud him for being so thorough before making such an important decision and considering both the good and potential bad.

I have a few random thoughts on the concerns raised by the OP.

- The Villages never ages significantly, there is constant housing turnover for many reasons, including death, moving to assisted living, wanting to be closer to family and friends, seeking better and more accessible health care, etc…. Since we moved into our neighborhood 9 years ago, about half the homes have turned over and there has been a significant infusion of youth (by Villages standards).

- Speciality boutique retail stores have been closing rapidly in mature areas nationwide. This is not a trend unique to SS and LSL. Online shopping has basically killed that line of business everywhere. To the contrary, the vast number of big box stores in the northern section (with Costco coming soon), is evidence of that area thriving.

- The restaurant business has consistently had the highest failure rate of any business. The establishments that recently closed were basically drinking places that served mediocre pub food and attracted a large younger clientele from outside the bubble. That food is not fit for seniors to be eating on a consistent basis and won’t be missed by many. Dinning places come and go, but the well run and healthy options have better staying power.

- What areas are considered “shiny” is in the eyes of the beholder. I know many people, especially avid golfers, who would never consider living south of the golf mecca between the northern most parts of the Villages and Hillsborough Trail. I know others who don’t golf, but love having walking and bike paths that don’t allow golf carts and wouldn’t consider living north of 44. Neither area is better than the other, just different.

I would advise the OP to consider other potential issues not mentioned as part of his post in this thread. Those would include the availability of quality health care, the effects of investor owned properties and short term rentals, ever increasing traffic and congestion, the relatively non diversified economy of an area dominated by the largest retirement community in the world, the almost daily lighting from around mid June until early October, and the ever increasing expense of both homeowners and auto insurance. All that being said, the Villages is an absolutely wonderful place with no equal. It’s highly unlikely my wife and I would have a home in Florida if the Villages didn’t exist. Florida isn’t our calling, it’s life inside the bubble. Hopefully someday I’ll be able to have a beer with the OP when he becomes a fellow Villager : )

[Jayhawk]

Somethin might be going on at the old Margarita Republic space in Spanish Springs. Drove by today and the lower windows are all covered with dark paper and the lights were on inside.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Somethin might be going on at the old Margarita Republic space in Spanish Springs. Drove by today and the lower windows are all covered with dark paper and the lights were on inside.

Yeah I've -heard- the rumor that Gator's Dockside only shut down temporarily and will be reopening in the Margaritaville property. That'd be great, if true. They really did make kickass steak and cheese subs even though their service was horrible.

[Topgun 1776]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?
Couldn't agree more!!!

[crash]

Doomsday? An observation about current events. My wife and I love TV's but there are problems developing that are worth discussing. Sorry you don't think so. Be Well!

What I see that worries me is the medical services are not being put in to service the aging population. They say they can’t get enough doctors to staff the current population what happens when it increases by 75%.

[rsmurano]

Another doomsdayer! The sky is falling! Things are falling apart! Businesses are leaving!

You are right, Spanish springs area is very outdated and old looking. Some people like that. I personally like the new and I like the improvements the developer has made while improving on the old: multi paths, house designs, walking paths in the south. 5 years from now, more improvements will be made, and that’s called evolution. I have friends that keep moving into the new areas every couple of years, nothing wrong with that

[dewilson58]

Another doomsdayer! The sky is falling! Things are falling apart! Businesses are leaving!

Ahhhhh yes.

Just before TV jumped South of 44, the thread was: The Family is selling the business. Some private equity firm will be running TV. Oh No!!

[Ellwoodrick]

Having been a Real Estate Appraiser for 38 years in western Pennsylvania I have observed many communities change over the years. Some in a positive way and some in a negative way. My wife and I purchased our 2nd home within a 20 minute golf cart drive to Spanish Springs. We like the northern part of the Villages. The older more mature neighborhoods were attractive to us. The ease of jumping out side the bubble to find whatever we need we think is great. The Restaurant business has always been a very competitive business. As an operator your business model better be geared around surviving on the slow times and not on the boom times when we snow birds flock in to survive. Your product must be better than average. Your help must be top notch. The rents of the spaces in Spanish Springs will eventually reach an equilibrium between what can be paid by an operator to make a profit and the developer to get the return on the investment for the site that is satisfactory to the Developer. The return to the Developer may come from a larger picture, the sale of new homes in the new communities opening up. Eventually the Developer will not subsidize the older built out neighborhoods and they will change. The Highest and Best Use of the properties will change. Being new to the Villages it will be interesting to see how the metamorphosis of the neighborhood evolves.

[GizmoWhiskers]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?
Same. Why move here? Also the new areas still rely on areas that are just now being developed like 466A. Pretty dumb post. Just need controversy posts to boost ads on a 3 day weekend. Most likely a fake post just about anyone could post like a dog poop post lol.

[RoseyRed]

A mobile business that takes the services to the resident's home, instead of the resident going to the business establishment.

[GizmoWhiskers]

Doomsday? An observation about current events. My wife and I love TV's but there are problems developing that are worth discussing. Sorry you don't think so. Be Well!
So you and your wife are coming next year... buy a house yet? Going to be snowbirds? Which side of T V is your destination?

[Rzepecki]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

Uninformed.

[Rzepecki]

Some time back I recall reading in another publication that such predictions of doom-and-gloom seem to be as regular as snowbird season and complaints about bad driving. There will always be those who see the glass as half-empty.

One of the things that fascinates me about them is the inevitable referral to "an aging population", as if that fact spells death for this-or-that area or business. Yeah--TV has an "aging population". But the result of aging is death. And as people die, they are replaced with younger folks. In our neighborhood we've had five families move in this year that I know of: two of them has one or both spouses still working remotely. the rest are younger retirees. The Village we live in came online in the late 1990s. My guess is that the average age of Villagers in our little corner of heaven is younger now than at any other time in the past ten years.

The other fallacy is "growth". As in mushrooms apparently. But the fact of the matter is that The Villages doesn't grow up. It grows OUT. Individual villages with their own individual character and architecture are pretty much constant. My guess is that, again using our Village as an example, if you went back in time to, say, Y2K and took a drive through it, virtually the ONLY difference you'd see between now and then is that the cars look somewhat different.

As to that "footprint" growing larger, in terms of space anyway, that is admittedly having an impact. But population outgrowing infrastructure, especially in a place growing as fast as TV (or Florida in general, for that matter) is natural. You won't see businesses being developed or medical services being implemented on merely the EXPECTATION of growth. The growth has to actually happen first. Infrastructure (services, roads, utilities, etc.) then is developed. But the settled, older neighborhoods aren't experiencing that. The last major infrastructure expansion here was the widening of 27/441. Businesses come and businesses go, but the restaurants closing in Spanish Springs are being replaced by restaurants that are significantly BETTER in most respects than the ones that have closed, and are doing commensurately better than the shuttered ones did. Don't confuse the results of healthy competition with "shrinkage" caused by whatever imagined reason.

TV is healthy. And as expansion continues and more and more opportunities and services are created, is getting healthier.

:clap2::clap2::clap2::ho::ho::ho:

[mikemalloy]

I think that the economy may pay at least a part in the problem. Inflation has reduced the spending power of many residents especially those on fixed incomes.

[opinionist]

You may be observing a country-wide recession. Florida remains a destination state, and TV remains a destination community within the state. You may not control the events around you, but you can control your reaction to them.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

One of the problems with annual COLA increases and inflation is that inflation happens all the time and the COLA happens in January to SS checks. So salaried people, including SS salaries, are always behind in purchasing power. The recent inflation effect has had quite a bit of an effect throughout the US on the regional / small retail chains everywhere. Likewise the continued decline of the middle class and its purchasing power also doesn't help small retail as well. Several clothing stores here in MA have gone under, and several supermarkets are closing around us this month.

Healthcare and an active retirement life has increased life longevity tremendously for villagers in 40 years, so the turnover is a bit slower than it used to be as people live longer! Yeah! I get to enjoy this life longer than the prior generations! Enjoy it and don't demonize it, as you want an active long retirement don't you?

So I wouldn't judge a retirement community in rural FL by its retail stores when you still have big box options and mail order. For men, this isn't an issue as we start prepping for our eventual move, i have many, many golf shirts, lots of underwear, and socks. . . So I just need occasional jeans and golf shorts replacement. As far as restaurants serving retirees with dietary restrictions and smaller daily requirements, the fewer the options the better for a constant flow of customers eating out 1-2 a week. Though I don't get the attraction of fast food drive throughs for a regular diet.

But the developer doesn't control who moves in the squares, either. Just the rent and revenue cut. Too high and higher turnover. I vote for more breakfast joints to offset the dining only choice. And if you notice that Sawgrass Grove is much smaller retail footprint, focusing more on food. So the developer is adapting to modern times from a 40 year old business model. Lots change in today's world in 40 years, but what's old becomes new again, and that also happens here in TV as well.

So, if you want retire here permanently, I recommend focusing on having the resources to be able to maintain your house / transportation / food purchases comfortably to be able to weather future bouts of inflation or some sort of SS cut or tax increases. Have a good financial conservative forecast to insure your assets are sufficient to support you under multiple scenarios of tax increases, SS cuts and stock market under performances. .

Then whatever happens in your community, you can still enjoy wherever you decide to live here.

Good luck, and if you need an excel 20 year forecast model of income and expenses, to see if you have sufficient assets, let me know and I will send you one. And then if you need help using it, we can zoom through it together.

former finance guy

[coconutmama]

One of the problems with annual COLA increases and inflation is that inflation happens all the time and the COLA happens in January to SS checks. So salaried people, including SS salaries, are always behind in purchasing power. The recent inflation effect has had quite a bit of an effect throughout the US on the regional / small retail chains everywhere. Likewise the continued decline of the middle class and its purchasing power also doesn't help small retail as well. Several clothing stores here in MA have gone under, and several supermarkets are closing around us this month.

Healthcare and an active retirement life has increased life longevity tremendously for villagers in 40 years, so the turnover is a bit slower than it used to be as people live longer! Yeah! I get to enjoy this life longer than the prior generations! Enjoy it and don't demonize it, as you want an active long retirement don't you?

So I wouldn't judge a retirement community in rural FL by its retail stores when you still have big box options and mail order. For men, this isn't an issue as we start prepping for our eventual move, i have many, many golf shirts, lots of underwear, and socks. . . So I just need occasional jeans and golf shorts replacement. As far as restaurants serving retirees with dietary restrictions and smaller daily requirements, the fewer the options the better for a constant flow of customers eating out 1-2 a week. Though I don't get the attraction of fast food drive throughs for a regular diet.

But the developer doesn't control who moves in the squares, either. Just the rent and revenue cut. Too high and higher turnover. I vote for more breakfast joints to offset the dining only choice. And if you notice that Sawgrass Grove is much smaller retail footprint, focusing more on food. So the developer is adapting to modern times from a 40 year old business model. Lots change in today's world in 40 years, but what's old becomes new again, and that also happens here in TV as well.

So, if you want retire here permanently, I recommend focusing on having the resources to be able to maintain your house / transportation / food purchases comfortably to be able to weather future bouts of inflation or some sort of SS cut or tax increases. Have a good financial conservative forecast to insure your assets are sufficient to support you under multiple scenarios of tax increases, SS cuts and stock market under performances. .

Then whatever happens in your community, you can still enjoy wherever you decide to live here.

Good luck, and if you need an excel 20 year forecast model of income and expenses, to see if you have sufficient assets, let me know and I will send you one. And then if you need help using it, we can zoom through it together.

former finance guy

Very nice post 👍.
Informative, realistic & kind

[airstreamingypsy]

I'm sorry your reasonable post was met with such anger. Some residents see TV through rose colored glasses and, as you can see, get all riled up if anyone even suggests it's not Nirvana. I suspect it's because if it isn't, they will feel like they've been hornswoggled. The more you read TOTV, you will see it's always the same ones who want to jump down peoples' throats.

[SHIBUMI]

IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.........PEOPLE FROM ALL AROUND WILL DRIVE FOR HOURS TO GET HERE...........IT IS AND CONTINUES TO BE THE FIELD OF DREAMS...IT WILL REMAIN THAT WAY UNTIL AN ANTI AGING PILL IS INVENTED...........Bless Us!:thumbup:


TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

[BostonTom]

Massachusetts is the most highly educated state in the country. Feel free to Google that. However we came here to escape the weather, high taxes and the far left political agenda. We love The Villages and you shouldn't paint everybody from Boston with a broad brush.

[NotGolfer]

Doncha just love the posts of folks who are either new or have visited who are "experts" on T.V.???? If one hasn't observed---since the plague hit everything has changed in our country, if not the world. First we all were told to stay home and not mingle with anyone, not even our family. Then gradually things opened up! I suspect businesses struggled immensely during that time. Stores I once loved to shop in are gone. Remember when you could purchase clothes but couldn't try them on????
As for medical---I think that whole issue is "maybe" true all over and not just here. That said, in case people didn't know T.V. isn't a world-class community that would bring in everything from "there" to "here". In our house-hold we can't complain about the health-care we've received. Believe me, we've had some major health issues and our care has been very good!!
The Developer has a long-range and most likely, short-range business plan. He has a lot of intelligent people who work for him. If any of the nay-sayers think they can do it better then maybe buy up some land somewhere and build a new community. Yes, I'm being sarcastic but it gets tiresome to read all the negativity on social media. I remember years back asking someone why they live here if it's so bad. The answer was...."because I like the life-style!" SMH!!! Now THAT makes total sense!

[sowtime444]

Spanish Springs has a revitalization plan to make it more like Brownwood. And the big Reina building is being turned into apartments. As long as there is re-investment in "older" areas I think The Villages will continue to do well. Of course sometimes it takes a lawsuit to spur that investment (First Responders Recreation Center, etc.).

Let's face it. We all like the *idea* of a cute little downtown with boutique shops to browse in, but as a tourist on vacation or a special occasion shopping trip, not somewhere where we shop on the regular. And restaurants in general have always been a tough business.

I also wonder what, if anything, will cause The Villages to lose its shine and favor in the top spot. Not maintaining and reinvesting in older areas is certainly one possibility, but I don't see that happening.

I think it will be larger shifts in the public consciousness. For example, home ownership. Right now lots of younger people prefer to rent things on a subscription than own them. A ZipCar membership is easier than maintaining your own car for example, if there is a ZipCar parking bay near where you live. These younger people will grow up and in 20 years might be thinking about retirement. Do they want to maintain their own house, hire the lawn service, pest service, fix stuff that breaks? Maybe The Villages will have to buy back some of their own homes that they built and manage them themselves as rentals. Or build more apartment buildings with communal ground-floors where people can gather and socialize with their neighbors indoors as well as out at the pool. Other trends besides home ownership might come into play, and The Villages may need to come up with much more varied models of neighborhoods. For example neighborhoods with community gardens, if that becomes more popular. Neighborhoods with native grasses and maintenance-free lawns instead of Florida grasses from hell. They might need to knock down some older houses to make way for such new developments. But I'm talking farther in the future. If they don't change and grow with the times, The Villages will become a less attractive place to be.

It is easy to look at The Villages and ponder what we would do differently if we started from scratch today. I have my own list:
- There are over 100 pools in The Villages but only two of them are zero-entry and only a dozen or so are of any decent size. There are also too few of them in the north. If I were a billionaire I would build an entire water park. Maybe even one of those inland beaches that they are building near Tampa. At least a lazy river!
- I would have made rec centers and the surrounding grounds a lot bigger, to accommodate all sorts of sports at each location. I know this is heathenistic but the amount of golf here takes up way too much real estate.
- I would have left a lot more trees in place. No shaded walking trails in the north is a big bummer.

Of course even with the resources, if I were to start to build the above, there wouldn't be enough people moving there right away to establish 3,000+ clubs that The Villages has. And that "first mover" advantage is huge.

If rising sea levels really start to claim the coasts, that will just force more Floridians into places like The Villages, so I think it's popularity will remain high even if adverse global weather starts to creep up, at least temporarily. Of course if Florida in its entirety is under water that is a different story.

[coleprice]

My wife and I moved to The Villages 4 years ago and decided to buy a 20 year old home because the area was beautiful, had extremely convenient shopping (Super Walmart, BJ's, Sams, Home Depot, Lowes, Aldi, plus dozens of other stores and restaurants) within 5 minutes of our home. Additionally, there are over 20 golf courses 2 Town Squares and 9 Rec Centers within a 20 minute golf cart ride (including 12 within a 10 minute golf cart ride) of our home. Most of the "older" neighbors have sold to younger (55 to 65) buyers. Since there are not many golf courses in "the new areas", I'd encourage golfers to check out the homes in the North and central areas of The Villages.

[ronda]

.......and one day the present newer areas will have the aging population.
Oldie pass on, and younger ones replace.
A bit like any city or town

Yes, it's the circle of life. I've seen it in our neighborhood. Houses are turning over. Original owners are "aging out" and new ones come in. I think some of the properties in SS are getting lone in the tooth and need restoration, which is happening. Definitely newer amenities down south. The developer says they are committed to keeping SS vibrant, and have made improvements, but they have also put in apartments in what used to be retail space. I never really thought retail stores would do well in the town squares. It's just not where people go to shop.

[blueash]

What I see that worries me is the medical services are not being put in to service the aging population. They say they can’t get enough doctors to staff the current population what happens when it increases by 75%.

I have always thought the Morses' model was that healthy retirees move here. They are active and enjoy and use the golf, tennis, clubs, ate and drank out, shopped etc. There were no retirement homes, there were no memory units. That is all new. The plan was that when you aged to the point you were no longer playing golf and tennis and spending money at the merchants, you moved back to your hometown. No need for much real medical care here. Still no second hospital and a low quality hospital only present.

So, to answer your question... if we don't have doctors, then we die sooner or move away, and the homes turn over which is where they make money and replace the ill with healthy people. Rinse and repeat.

[Laker14]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

I think you make some cogent observations, and you've been doing a lot of research as you approach a possible relocation.
My thoughts (since you asked): What you describe as a "struggle" I would characterize as an "evolving process". Consider that in its infancy, TV was a small "bubble", and the large retailers like Publix, Winn-Dixie, and larger retailers like Walmart, Sam's Club etc. didn't see enough of a market here to warrant investing in the area. Hence, in order to provide some level of service and entertainment, to attract the potential buyers for the homes, the developer chose to develop real estate space and did so by creating Spanish Springs, and eventually LSL. As those areas became developed and populated, it started to make sense for more development along 466 and 441, hence, Publix, Walmart, and chain restaurants like Olive Garden, etc.

Then, as more and more people came, more commercial development ensued, and the demand for the small commercial sites at the squares changed and evolve and continue to do so.
Fast Forward 20 years and TV is no longer "The Bubble", it is the driving economic force of the area. What was needed in the squares, and what worked in the squares when there was nothing outside of TV, is no longer needed and viable now.

Consider also, that since there is so much available near , but outside of TV, the developer no longer needs to create as much entertainment and services inside TV as was needed when the Spanish Springs and LSL squares were developed. So they build less of that into the system.

Whatever you see now, as you prepare to move here, will be different in 20 years. And your desires, abilities, and needs will change as well. It's only a "struggle" in the sense that all change requires adaptive response, which I guess could be viewed as a "struggle".

[dhdallas]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

[Glowing Horizon]

.......and one day the present newer areas will have the aging population.
Oldie pass on, and younger ones replace.
A bit like any city or town
Most towns are not so homogeneous & built at nearly the same time, by one over-arching developer’s plan. Like most things, it’s both good & bad. The decline of retail is probably more acute in the older areas like OBG/Spanish Springs for the reasons offered but also because our entire economy has shifted to more online ordering & less buying-by-wandering around. The new areas have younger, more mobile people who want to get out to meet others, want to experience all the things they bought into & who NEED things for their new home & their new lifestyle.

Sit-down full-service restaurants are suffering everywhere post-pandemic. IMO restaurants everywhere will need to evolve & develop more unique experiences. The days of identical unhealthy chain food have passed to a large extent. We need them to offer specialized foods & drinks which cater to today’s more health-oriented special diets & needs.What if ONE restaurant dared to offer a Christian breaking -of-the-daily-bread dinner complete with prayer & Bible study & fellowship along with a more basic Mediterranean-themed tapas-style diet? Or ONE restaurant which might offer unique LUNCH experiences complete with music or an educational speaker? Or ONE restaurant which would offer LADIES LUNCHES “let’s do lunch!” with finger sandwiches, tiny beautiful baby veggies & salads, miniature pastries & a lovely fragrance to greet you along with a pianist. Would you go? How about a “dude’s den” with a cigar lounge, beer-tasting flights, charcuterie boards of meats & cheeses, and a muted saxophone player interrupted by a speaker about uniquely male topics like today’s NFL hot topics or tech or golf tips. Do you see how they are failing because they are all competing at the same stale mediocrity?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

Caveat: I'm a cynic. I hate Florida. It would be with the passion of a thousand burning suns, but this is Florida, and only one sun is needed in this stinking, steaming cesspit of humidity. The Villages is beautiful, however, for all its warts and misfortune of being built in Florida.

I'm also from a suburb of New Haven, where I had easy access to NYC and Boston, while enjoying my sidewalks and wooded 3/4-acre fenced in lot with no HOAs or gates and could walk to the center of town after dusk without worry for my safety.

So I totally get that the squares feel like an outdated resort tourist shopping district. Like a line of stores you'd see on a cruise ship, where you can get your polyester-and-spandex cruise outfit in your choice of coral and white, turquoise and white, or coral AND turquoise and white. For $400 per outfit.

Fear not - us younger Boomers and GenX are starting to take over. Our interests are different than the older Boomers that are aging out, dying, being moved into nursing homes or assisted living. Our fashion sense is different, music interests are different. Our idea of "fun retro" products is also different. GenX brought us "foodies" and tons of innovation.

In other words, the demographics of the northern part of the Villages has been changing, and continues to change. What was here - was stuff that 60-year-olds wanted back in the 1970's and 1980's when it was first built. 40 years and a whole generation of people later, we 60-year-olds now - want different things. So those stores that have been around forever are slowly dying out. And hopefully all these GenXers who were so innovative and really understood how the world was turning, will start filling those vacancies with more affordable things that will keep us all interested until our generations are replaced by the next one.

So yes - Spanish Springs is feeling very - depressed these days, when there's no events going on. Even the Mercado is sadly underperforming. They really need to promote it better, and bring more vendors in. Even if it means lowering their spot prices. That might possibly just be a seasonal slump, we'll find out in November once all the snowbirders have been back for awhile.

I am really hoping some entrepreneurs with an understanding of GenX and even Millennials will open businesses in Spanish Springs. The Millennials are the children of the Late-Boomers and early GenXers afterall, and those are the people who residents will want to bring to the squares.

It's all marketing. I get the sense that the current iteration of the Developers' organization still hasn't caught up to the current demographics of the location they're trying to profit from. They are the children and grandchildren of the founders, and they've also lived here most of their lives. Perhaps they're not capable of seeing the width and scope of "who seniors ARE" these days.

[Jim1mack]

As long as there’s an ACE Hardware, a grocery store and golfing we're fine.

[Laker14]

I have always thought the Morses' model was that healthy retirees move here. They are active and enjoy and use the golf, tennis, clubs, ate and drank out, shopped etc. There were no retirement homes, there were no memory units. That is all new. The plan was that when you aged to the point you were no longer playing golf and tennis and spending money at the merchants, you moved back to your hometown. No need for much real medical care here. Still no second hospital and a low quality hospital only present.

So, to answer your question... if we don't have doctors, then we die sooner or move away, and the homes turn over which is where they make money and replace the ill with healthy people. Rinse and repeat.

I agree with you. When I decided to buy here (I'm not a full timer at this point, but I am a Florida resident spending 8-9 months here, and my medical care is all here now), I saw it as a place for my "active retirement years", but not necessarily where I will "age in place" if I live a lot of years after my activity level has been forced to slow down to the point I can't use enough of the amenities to make sense for me to continue to pay for them.

One would think that if a large percent of the people do wind up living here into their deep years of aging and infirmity, that the market for those services will drive development of the facilities and staff needed to provide them. It took time for the market to attract Walmart, Sam's Club and Costco, but it did eventually.

I don't see why it won't work that way for aging care unless there is just a shortage of caregivers, but that would likely be a national issue, and moving somewhere else would be unlikely to solve it.

[Glowing Horizon]

Doomsday? An observation about current events. My wife and I love TV's but there are problems developing that are worth discussing. Sorry you don't think so. Be Well!

Inconvenient truths are often very uncomfortable to grapple with. The easiest way for those who do not want to be uncomfortable to silence those who dare to observe the truth is to attack & attempt to silence the messenger because the message is so unwelcome. However, opportunities abound for those who dare to not only see reality but who also develop solutions. Think of Steve Jobs & his tenacious, rebellious, demanding pursuit of iPhones. So, you are not wrong. What do you propose as solutions for the future?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I agree with you. When I decided to buy here (I'm not a full timer at this point, but I am a Florida resident spending 8-9 months here, and my medical care is all here now), I saw it as a place for my "active retirement years", but not necessarily where I will "age in place" if I live a lot of years after my activity level has been forced to slow down to the point I can't use enough of the amenities to make sense for me to continue to pay for them.

One would think that if a large percent of the people do wind up living here into their deep years of aging and infirmity, that the market for those services will drive development of the facilities and staff needed to provide them. It took time for the market to attract Walmart, Sam's Club and Costco, but it did eventually.

I don't see why it won't work that way for aging care unless there is just a shortage of caregivers, but that would likely be a national issue, and moving somewhere else would be unlikely to solve it.

There is a shortage for sure, but in areas where there are a LOT of seniors - a shortage can be catastrophic. They need to market the area to attract more health care workers. And those will be people who actually live in the general area, and don't have to travel 40 miles one way just to get to their $15-20/hour jobs. Florida health care employees are notoriously underpaid. Nursing staff, physical therapy, radiologists - heck even janitorial services at hospitals and assisted living and memory care centers - are in bad shape here. Just look at how long those buildings across from the hospital have been for sale. They were part of a senior living center and they've been vacant and for sale for four years. No one wants to touch it, because they know there's no way they can staff it.

The property owners (go ahead and take a guess as to who that might be) need to be more reasonable about their expectations. Yes they absolutely deserve to profit from business rentals and property sales/leases. But their CUSTOMERS - people like Villages residents - also deserve to have the care we need within reasonable proximity, and not have to go halfway down or up the state, or move back north, just because we might need to spend our last years in a wheelchair and there aren't enough nurses to accommodate an aging population. That's something they should've thought about when they built the place.

[Laker14]

......

So I totally get that the squares feel like an outdated resort tourist shopping district. Like a line of stores you'd see on a cruise ship, where you can get your polyester-and-spandex cruise outfit in your choice of coral and white, turquoise and white, or coral AND turquoise and white. For $400 per outfit.

Fear not - us younger Boomers and GenX are starting to take over. Our interests are different than the older Boomers that are aging out, dying, being moved into nursing homes or assisted living. Our fashion sense is different, music interests are different. Our idea of "fun retro" products is also different. GenX brought us "foodies" and tons of innovation.

In other words, the demographics of the northern part of the Villages has been changing, and continues to change. What was here - was stuff that 60-year-olds wanted back in the 1970's and 1980's when it was first built. 40 years and a whole generation of people later, we 60-year-olds now - want different things. So those stores that have been around forever are slowly dying out. And hopefully all these GenXers who were so innovative and really understood how the world was turning, will start filling those vacancies with more affordable things that will keep us all interested until our generations are replaced by the next one.

So yes - Spanish Springs is feeling very - depressed these days, when there's no events going on. Even the Mercado is sadly underperforming. They really need to promote it better, and bring more vendors in. Even if it means lowering their spot prices. That might possibly just be a seasonal slump, we'll find out in November once all the snowbirders have been back for awhile.

I am really hoping some entrepreneurs with an understanding of GenX and even Millennials will open businesses in Spanish Springs. The Millennials are the children of the Late-Boomers and early GenXers afterall, and those are the people who residents will want to bring to the squares.

It's all marketing. I get the sense that the current iteration of the Developers' organization still hasn't caught up to the current demographics of the location they're trying to profit from. They are the children and grandchildren of the founders, and they've also lived here most of their lives. Perhaps they're not capable of seeing the width and scope of "who seniors ARE" these days.

Fair points, but I think you miss a couple of factors of importance: The Developer is pretty much out of "developing" in the Spanish Springs area. Not totally, I admit, as the new efforts at the old Hacienda CC demonstrate, however, they are no longer building and selling entire neighborhoods up there. As a consequence they are no longer economically driven to provide any kind of entertainment or services in the Square with the idea of helping to sell homes. So, whatever goes into the commercial fronts at the Square will have to sink or swim on their own merits. Other than collecting rents, the Developer is not highly motivated.

2nd point: unlike 30 years ago when SS was first opened, there is a lot to find outside of TV, and it's no longer the only game in town.

So, as things continue to evolve, the Developer will likely, if it hasn't already started to happen, be forced to reduce rents, and commercial interests will have to find niches that work for the existing population.

[BlueStarAirlines]

No kidding. Random posts now and again about the state of the Villages from a non resident. Either jump onboard or stop playing from afar? Even the wizard of oz had issues, LOL

Exactly! Read his post history. Has a history of posting contentious context disguised as a question under the veil of "moving to TV soon".

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Fair points, but I think you miss a couple of factors of importance: The Developer is pretty much out of "developing" in the Spanish Springs area. Not totally, I admit, as the new efforts at the old Hacienda CC demonstrate, however, they are no longer building and selling entire neighborhoods up there. As a consequence they are no longer economically driven to provide any kind of entertainment or services in the Square with the idea of helping to sell homes. So, whatever goes into the commercial fronts at the Square will have to sink or swim on their own merits. Other than collecting rents, the Developer is not highly motivated.

2nd point: unlike 30 years ago when SS was first opened, there is a lot to find outside of TV, and it's no longer the only game in town.

So, as things continue to evolve, the Developer will likely, if it hasn't already started to happen, be forced to reduce rents, and commercial interests will have to find niches that work for the existing population.

Many people who visit the squares during the day aren't Villagers at all. The land that all those stores is on, the buildings - they're all owned by the Villages LLC. And they NEED to profit, if they want to stay in business. They might not be interested in developing anymore, but they still own those properties and still have to profit from them. They won't profit if no one wants to lease their vacancies. They'll still have to pay property tax though, whether they have revenue or not.

In addition, all those people who -work- in the area - need a place to be. Spanish Springs is in a very unique position, immediately off 441 - and the opportunity for it to be a destination location rather than a conclave of shops for residents - is enormous. It's absolutely a missed opportunity.

I dunno. Maybe I've just worked in retail and in offices as an "employee" and "consumer" rather than a boss or corporate geek for too long, but my perspective is one of someone who used to serve people in "destination locations" or used to be a customer in those destination locations.

I can see it very easily as being a miniature version of downtown Mt. Dora, minus the boating lake and hills. Antiques and vintage clothing shop, tiny ethnic restaurants, boutique shops, knick-knack stores, small-batch beauty and skin shop, a "make your own ceramics" shop, an old fashioned but small retro-50's Five and Dime with a soda fountain counter... a location that no matter who you are, how old you are, what your budget is, or how often you come, you'll find SOMETHING in at least one store that you'll want to buy and can afford.

[Glowing Horizon]

I agree with you. When I decided to buy here (I'm not a full timer at this point, but I am a Florida resident spending 8-9 months here, and my medical care is all here now), I saw it as a place for my "active retirement years", but not necessarily where I will "age in place" if I live a lot of years after my activity level has been forced to slow down to the point I can't use enough of the amenities to make sense for me to continue to pay for them.

One would think that if a large percent of the people do wind up living here into their deep years of aging and infirmity, that the market for those services will drive development of the facilities and staff needed to provide them. It took time for the market to attract Walmart, Sam's Club and Costco, but it did eventually.

I don't see why it won't work that way for aging care unless there is just a shortage of caregivers, but that would likely be a national issue, and moving somewhere else would be unlikely to solve it.

IMO most people in TV are in a blissful state of denial. Almost no one wants to be faced with the reality of our guaranteed end. But if the goods & services in TV would be target-marketed to optimize the health & life one has left maybe that would cause a shift. Denial does not make the truth any less real. For instance, why aren’t there “sports medicine”
integrated practices in TV even though most of the active older people are MORE likely to need those types of services than young, fit, healthy people are. Why aren’t there holistic service providers who deal with changing dietary needs for aging bodies needing reduced inflammation & fats & blood sugars & yoga & massage & advice about alternative activities for those experiencing setbacks who may benefit from specialized assistive devices. Those are real NEEDS even before one becomes infirm.

I’ve even wondered why the squares have no dog services like a groomer, pet hotel (with hourly rates/doggy day care services) or downtown, nearby grassy dog parks? Villagers love taking their dogs in their golf carts so why not offer unique supportive services to them? Dogs already go to the squares so offering services & accommodations for them may enable everyone to share a more comfortable, enjoyable experience.

[Glowing Horizon]

Yes, it sucks here.
Houses are falling down, the squares are a ghosttown, no one is there.

This place has always had part time residents. You don’t think the business model is set up for that?

Seriously, stop believing what you read. You aren’t even here. TOTV represents probably 5% of the Villagers. The VLOGGERS, same thing, they need to complain to get views, no one will watch a YouTube video saying everything is great.
Your advice is to deny what can be seen with your own eyes. You are right about those who need to gin up fear & negativity to shore up the NEED for their “informative” services; however, denial means no improvements are sought because none is perceived as being necessary. That’s not good. The challenges in TV are unique. Most who move there would have no idea what a sinkhole is or what typically causes them, for instance. Denying their existence does not make them any less true. However, there is, as always, power in information. Anyone who tours TV & comes away with the impression that it is DECLINING is practicing excellence at denial probably because they envious since cannot afford to live there or they lack the bravery to take the plunge. TOTV is the opposite of The Daily Sun. Take an average of the two & you’ll have a clearer view of your probable Villages lifestyle.

[CODYCAT]

I grew up understanding that the economy’s success made the nation great. You take any business with lousy leadership and it with go out of business. Large and small businesses are folding up daily. It doesn’t take much to look around and see the problem. If people don’t change things this country is doomed. I’m glad I’m old so I don’t have to watch this all happen. I hope real America steps up to fix it.

[Craig Vernon]

Just wondering if you got what you were looking for?

Sure didn't!! I am someone who is evaluating where to buy and the issues developing around them. Those who already live in TV may think I am casting some negative vibe because posts do not show emotion or intent but only words. As far as the snide comments it is a bit disheartening when trying to find constructive thoughts on different points. Oh well have a great day one and all.

[sallyg]

Wonder exactly what you are looking for with this post?

[Craig Vernon]

Inconvenient truths are often very uncomfortable to grapple with. The easiest way for those who do not want to be uncomfortable to silence those who dare to observe the truth is to attack & attempt to silence the messenger because the message is so unwelcome. However, opportunities abound for those who dare to not only see reality but who also develop solutions. Think of Steve Jobs & his tenacious, rebellious, demanding pursuit of iPhones. So, you are not wrong. What do you propose as solutions for the future?

I believe that businesses inside the bubble should be more responsive to what folks are looking for rather than some niche one size fits all thinking. Example I have read some articles about food delivery services booming inside the bubble. Kroger has a grocery delivery that is expanding but they do not operate a store in TV. I wonder if there is a reason that current businesses do not cater more toward home shoppers or delivery services. Just one small example to answer your question. Thanks for the respectful response.

[Craig Vernon]

I think you make some cogent observations, and you've been doing a lot of research as you approach a possible relocation.
My thoughts (since you asked): What you describe as a "struggle" I would characterize as an "evolving process". Consider that in its infancy, TV was a small "bubble", and the large retailers like Publix, Winn-Dixie, and larger retailers like Walmart, Sam's Club etc. didn't see enough of a market here to warrant investing in the area. Hence, in order to provide some level of service and entertainment, to attract the potential buyers for the homes, the developer chose to develop real estate space and did so by creating Spanish Springs, and eventually LSL. As those areas became developed and populated, it started to make sense for more development along 466 and 441, hence, Publix, Walmart, and chain restaurants like Olive Garden, etc.

Then, as more and more people came, more commercial development ensued, and the demand for the small commercial sites at the squares changed and evolve and continue to do so.
Fast Forward 20 years and TV is no longer "The Bubble", it is the driving economic force of the area. What was needed in the squares, and what worked in the squares when there was nothing outside of TV, is no longer needed and viable now.

Consider also, that since there is so much available near , but outside of TV, the developer no longer needs to create as much entertainment and services inside TV as was needed when the Spanish Springs and LSL squares were developed. So they build less of that into the system.

Whatever you see now, as you prepare to move here, will be different in 20 years. And your desires, abilities, and needs will change as well. It's only a "struggle" in the sense that all change requires adaptive response, which I guess could be viewed as a "struggle".

Thank You!

[asianthree]

Sure didn't!! I am someone who is evaluating where to buy and the issues developing around them. Those who already live in TV may think I am casting some negative vibe because posts do not show emotion or intent but only words. As far as the snide comments it is a bit disheartening when trying to find constructive thoughts on different points. Oh well have a great day one and all.

If your original post was I am still trying to make decisions on where would I best fit in TV. Instead you chose words that didn’t put northern areas desirable. Think about it do you tell your parents wow I can’t believe you bought this house and where you moved What were you thinking? No, you have respect for other people and their choices.

I can definitely say that pretty much every resident that lives in TV thinks their Village is by far better than any other area. Why because it fits for them. When you doom and gloom a certain area, with closed restaurants, yet didn’t mention the new business replacements, or the new apartments, and retail. One will get less than constructive thoughts.

Regroup ask WHY do you love your area, you will find a much better view point. This is my needs do you have that available? I love the northern area with old trees,homes with architectural pride and their build, but not a fan of all the retail. We also don’t need a hospital or doctors in our back door.
That said we are on our Fourth home, and Village and I can say, we moved each time for larger garages, and more sf, a view, with safety in walking and biking. Plus less than 3 miles to turnpike for parks and Gainesville

[Glowing Horizon]

One of the problems with annual COLA increases and inflation is that inflation happens all the time and the COLA happens in January to SS checks. So salaried people, including SS salaries, are always behind in purchasing power. The recent inflation effect has had quite a bit of an effect throughout the US on the regional / small retail chains everywhere. Likewise the continued decline of the middle class and its purchasing power also doesn't help small retail as well. Several clothing stores here in MA have gone under, and several supermarkets are closing around us this month.

Healthcare and an active retirement life has increased life longevity tremendously for villagers in 40 years, so the turnover is a bit slower than it used to be as people live longer! Yeah! I get to enjoy this life longer than the prior generations! Enjoy it and don't demonize it, as you want an active long retirement don't you?

So I wouldn't judge a retirement community in rural FL by its retail stores when you still have big box options and mail order. For men, this isn't an issue as we start prepping for our eventual move, i have many, many golf shirts, lots of underwear, and socks. . . So I just need occasional jeans and golf shorts replacement. As far as restaurants serving retirees with dietary restrictions and smaller daily requirements, the fewer the options the better for a constant flow of customers eating out 1-2 a week. Though I don't get the attraction of fast food drive throughs for a regular diet.

But the developer doesn't control who moves in the squares, either. Just the rent and revenue cut. Too high and higher turnover. I vote for more breakfast joints to offset the dining only choice. And if you notice that Sawgrass Grove is much smaller retail footprint, focusing more on food. So the developer is adapting to modern times from a 40 year old business model. Lots change in today's world in 40 years, but what's old becomes new again, and that also happens here in TV as well.

So, if you want retire here permanently, I recommend focusing on having the resources to be able to maintain your house / transportation / food purchases comfortably to be able to weather future bouts of inflation or some sort of SS cut or tax increases. Have a good financial conservative forecast to insure your assets are sufficient to support you under multiple scenarios of tax increases, SS cuts and stock market under performances. .

Then whatever happens in your community, you can still enjoy wherever you decide to live here.

Good luck, and if you need an excel 20 year forecast model of income and expenses, to see if you have sufficient assets, let me know and I will send you one. And then if you need help using it, we can zoom through it together.

former finance guy
Wow! Your synopsis is accurate & complete with one caveat: men may not need a lot of new apparel but retired men definitely buy more toys & they are generally larger & higher-priced like sports cars, boats, tech equipment & fancy golf clubs. A newbie would be well-ahead by thinking about which toys he is most likely to need to house.

[Craig Vernon]

Interesting thread. The OP has visited the Villages several times and has been doing extensive due diligence about where he wants to spend a good chunk his hard earned retirement savings. He is very wise to consider both the positives and potential issues of wherever he chooses to make his new home. People are often criticized on this forum for not doing their due diligence and then complaining later about things they should have know about beforehand. Ironically, some are now questioning him for trying to make such a big decision eyes wide open. I applaud him for being so thorough before making such an important decision and considering both the good and potential bad.

I have a few random thoughts on the concerns raised by the OP.

- The Villages never ages significantly, there is constant housing turnover for many reasons, including death, moving to assisted living, wanting to be closer to family and friends, seeking better and more accessible health care, etc…. Since we moved into our neighborhood 9 years ago, about half the homes have turned over and there has been a significant infusion of youth (by Villages standards).

- Speciality boutique retail stores have been closing rapidly in mature areas nationwide. This is not a trend unique to SS and LSL. Online shopping has basically killed that line of business everywhere. To the contrary, the vast number of big box stores in the northern section (with Costco coming soon), is evidence of that area thriving.

- The restaurant business has consistently had the highest failure rate of any business. The establishments that recently closed were basically drinking places that served mediocre pub food and attracted a large younger clientele from outside the bubble. That food is not fit for seniors to be eating on a consistent basis and won’t be missed by many. Dinning places come and go, but the well run and healthy options have better staying power.

- What areas are considered “shiny” is in the eyes of the beholder. I know many people, especially avid golfers, who would never consider living south of the golf mecca between the northern most parts of the Villages and Hillsborough Trail. I know others who don’t golf, but love having walking and bike paths that don’t allow golf carts and wouldn’t consider living north of 44. Neither area is better than the other, just different.

I would advise the OP to consider other potential issues not mentioned as part of his post in this thread. Those would include the availability of quality health care, the effects of investor owned properties and short term rentals, ever increasing traffic and congestion, the relatively non diversified economy of an area dominated by the largest retirement community in the world, the almost daily lighting from around mid June until early October, and the ever increasing expense of both homeowners and auto insurance. All that being said, the Villages is an absolutely wonderful place with no equal. It’s highly unlikely my wife and I would have a home in Florida if the Villages didn’t exist. Florida isn’t our calling, it’s life inside the bubble. Hopefully someday I’ll be able to have a beer with the OP when he becomes a fellow Villager : )

Thank You. My wife and I are coming upon plunge time for retirement and are both committed to TV. New and shiny refers to how the marketing of the Eastport area. We prefer between the 6's. My posts are usually me just pondering current events in order to reason my best decision with a little anxiety mixed in about retirement and best use of a lifetime of savings. I appreciate your insights and would love to have that beer sometime. Thanks Again Craig...

[CybrSage]

I'm sorry your reasonable post was met with such anger.

I read it as a rant. He made statements of fact, while also saying he does not actually stay here all the time.
It is akin to me saying how horrible it is in Brussels, how the city is not sustainable, how the surrounding towns night save it, etc, when I am only there part time.
His support was business turnover that happens everywhere, all the time and people grow older like they do everywhere.

The fact the villages are still rapidly growing is proof his statements of fact are not correct. A failing business does not continue to expand every year for decades.

Now, had the inflation stayed at super high levels, sure. They did not

[Jackryan57]

We also left Massachusetts for the very reasons you said and we close on a house in TV at the end of the month. We are very excited.


QUOTE=BostonTom;2366428]Massachusetts is the most highly educated state in the country. Feel free to Google that. However we came here to escape the weather, high taxes and the far left political agenda. We love The Villages and you shouldn't paint everybody from Boston with a broad brush.[/QUOTE]

[Jim1mack]

As long there’s an ACE Hardware, a grocery store and golfing, we're fine.

[Pballer]

The Brownwood town square has become ridiculously overcrowded in the evening and it isn't even snowbird season. The developer keeps building houses south of 44 and the amenities have not kept up there. Does anybody know when they plan on opening the Eastport town square to take some of the pressure off?

[Bill14564]

I believe that businesses inside the bubble should be more responsive to what folks are looking for rather than some niche one size fits all thinking. Example I have read some articles about food delivery services booming inside the bubble. Kroger has a grocery delivery that is expanding but they do not operate a store in TV. I wonder if there is a reason that current businesses do not cater more toward home shoppers or delivery services. Just one small example to answer your question. Thanks for the respectful response.

How does that make sense? Why would a business pay a premium price for a footprint inside the bubble and then market to customers who will never step foot into their store? Kroger is an interesting example, they are delivering in the Villages and all of Florida without having a single store in the state.

[Glowing Horizon]

No kidding. Random posts now and again about the state of the Villages from a non resident. Either jump onboard or stop playing from afar? Even the wizard of oz had issues, LOL

As my wise Mama always said “you can catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Who thought what you sniped was funny? (LOL) kindness costs you nothing but can pay unlimited dividends. It’s sad if that’s how you were treated as a newbie but grumpy old entitled men are a major deterrent to newbies.

[Glowing Horizon]

How does that make sense? Why would a business pay a premium price for a footprint inside the bubble and then market to customers who will never step foot into their store? Kroger is an interesting example, they are delivering in the Villages and all of Florida without having a single store in the state.
Ever heard of Uber Eats? They deliver foods & goods from local brick & mortar restaurants & stores. Competing in the delivery business & e-commerce is a reality every business must face now. Kroger’s business model of delivery-only groceries is not one which every retailer or grocer can or should try to duplicate. As consumers change to eating fresher foods, perishable items will cause more waste & unhappy customers IMO

[Laker14]

Thank You. My wife and I are coming upon plunge time for retirement and are both committed to TV. New and shiny refers to how the marketing of the Eastport area. We prefer between the 6's. My posts are usually me just pondering current events in order to reason my best decision with a little anxiety mixed in about retirement and best use of a lifetime of savings. I appreciate your insights and would love to have that beer sometime. Thanks Again Craig...

I hope I never come across as trying to disparage other areas, new or old, nor as someone who believes that what works for me should work for you or anybody else, but we love it "between the sixes".
Good luck in your search and relocation.

[Glowing Horizon]

We also left Massachusetts for the very reasons you said and we close on a house in TV at the end of the month. We are very excited.


QUOTE=BostonTom;2366428]Massachusetts is the most highly educated state in the country. Feel free to Google that. However we came here to escape the weather, high taxes and the far left political agenda. We love The Villages and you shouldn't paint everybody from Boston with a broad brush.[/QUOTE]
My dear son has adopted Boston as his home & I still love him. 😊 He’s a very kind, well-educated, aspiring young man so his love of Boston carries a lot of water for me. Every place has some folks who are nice & others who are not-so-much. Our job is to stay focused on being the best we can be & hope they will follow along. Enjoy the Villages!

[Glowing Horizon]

The Brownwood town square has become ridiculously overcrowded in the evening and it isn't even snowbird season. The developer keeps building houses south of 44 and the amenities have not kept up there. Does anybody know when they plan on opening the Eastport town square to take some of the pressure off? I have never enjoyed crowds so I understand your complaint. Watching Brownwood be developed was instructive since the Developer moved very quickly when sales are strong & costs were lower, but slower when sales were slower or costs rose—like most businesses do. In other words, no one knows because no one has a crystal ball, including the Developer. The fact that they own & have platted the land means it will happen which is a lot more assurance than we usually get in life.

[mpstrang]

I live South of 44, and yes, many are younger and still working. However, they are many, such as me, who are in their 50s, retired, and live here on a full-time basis. Also, many work locally or via remote jobs so they are here on a FT basis as well. To me, it seems like more of the older people are snowbirds because they can't tolerate the heat, whereas the younger folks, don't mind it as much.

[Glowing Horizon]

You may be observing a country-wide recession. Florida remains a destination state, and TV remains a destination community within the state. You may not control the events around you, but you can control your reaction to them.
Where is the 👎🏻 button? Denial is a terrible state to live in.

[Glowing Horizon]

I visited my CT hometown in June. The HUGE mall constructed around 1980 was practically deserted at 5pm. All 4 anchor stores are out of business and have never gotten new tenants. A few food court restaurants and a few clothing stores. Pretty depressing!
Ripe for redevelopment. Fortunately land is a valuable finite resource so when the price is right, a new repurposed venue will come in. I know of one which became a high-density apartment complex catering to migrants :0

[Bogie Shooter]

As my wise Mama always said “you can catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Who thought what you sniped was funny? (LOL) kindness costs you nothing but can pay unlimited dividends. It’s sad if that’s how you were treated as a newbie but grumpy old entitled men are a major deterrent to newbies.

As well as those that post the doom and gloom with nothing to back it up!

[Glowing Horizon]

Yes, it's the circle of life. I've seen it in our neighborhood. Houses are turning over. Original owners are "aging out" and new ones come in. I think some of the properties in SS are getting lone in the tooth and need restoration, which is happening. Definitely newer amenities down south. The developer says they are committed to keeping SS vibrant, and have made improvements, but they have also put in apartments in what used to be retail space. I never really thought retail stores would do well in the town squares. It's just not where people go to shop.
Downtown retail stores can also serve for shipping & delivery services. Many retail stores ship to online buyers. I recently bought a birthday gift online which shipped from a retail store in Dallas TX to Denver CO for instance. When I bought it, I was unaware where it would ship from. No need to know.

[Two Bills]

Amusing to read how many find Brownwood so congested.
I remember the early years of complaints that Brownwood had no atmosphere, most of the business buildings were empty, and the Developer had overstretched expansion, etc etc.
TV is now passing Leesburg.
What a mug that Developer turned out to be!
Funny old world.

[SHIBUMI]

Your decision to get a place between the 466 and 466 A. is the right plan.....

So much is available in a short distance.........worth the premium..good luck!!!:wave:


QUOTE=Craig Vernon;2366113]TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day![/QUOTE]

[Retiring]

There are always growing pains as a "town" matures into a small city. More traffic, more accidents, more crime and infrastructure repairs will take more time. I've only been here 3 years, wanted to be here sooner but I hit a time when they took the 55 rule seriously. I've heard about the TV of 30 years ago, I'm afraid those days are gone forever but it doesn't mean we sit back and watch things slide. Be the type of neighbor that you expect next door to you, and we'll be fine.

[jimjamuser]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?
I agree. And I found it pretty humorous that when I got to the last line in the post that he was ONLY a part time resident that had yet to absorb a complete understanding of The Villages. Maybe they should have led with that fact. When they say that Spanish Springs are losing businesses, he may not be aware that the same thing has been going on for 10 or more years. The Villages has a habit of raising the RENT on various businesses until they give up and leave. The Villages is just a hard place to keep a business going. Lots of Villagers have the time and money to OFTEN go out to restaurants or bars. So, the various businesses have a BIG source of customers.
......Judging by traffic on 441 The whole Villages area is booming in the summer and even MORE in the winter. All of Florida has been increasing in population not decreasing. If things were so BAD in The Villages, then there would be FOR SALE signs on every block. Right now property values are HIGH.

[Glowing Horizon]

There is a shortage for sure, but in areas where there are a LOT of seniors - a shortage can be catastrophic. They need to market the area to attract more health care workers. And those will be people who actually live in the general area, and don't have to travel 40 miles one way just to get to their $15-20/hour jobs. Florida health care employees are notoriously underpaid. Nursing staff, physical therapy, radiologists - heck even janitorial services at hospitals and assisted living and memory care centers - are in bad shape here. Just look at how long those buildings across from the hospital have been for sale. They were part of a senior living center and they've been vacant and for sale for four years. No one wants to touch it, because they know there's no way they can staff it.

The property owners (go ahead and take a guess as to who that might be) need to be more reasonable about their expectations. Yes they absolutely deserve to profit from business rentals and property sales/leases. But their CUSTOMERS - people like Villages residents - also deserve to have the care we need within reasonable proximity, and not have to go halfway down or up the state, or move back north, just because we might need to spend our last years in a wheelchair and there aren't enough nurses to accommodate an aging population. That's something they should've thought about when they built the place.
Your comment about the inability to staff residential care facilities is valid & sparked another thought for me. Often marrying two needs can solve two big problems at the same time. Low-paid young people also cannot find affordable housing. An innovative solution might be to convert, for example, the 1st floor into low-cost (or free?) housing for workers while the upper floors of a residential care facility remained for only seniors. Electronic key cards can easily restrict movement. Win-win.

[Decadeofdave]

Typical cycle of life. If you bought new near LSL at 65 yo. In 2005, you are 80+. New buyers are 60 +or-.

[Glowing Horizon]

I agree. And I found it pretty humorous that when I got to the last line in the post that he was ONLY a part time resident that had yet to absorb a complete understanding of The Villages. Maybe they should have led with that fact. When they say that Spanish Springs are losing businesses, he may not be aware that the same thing has been going on for 10 or more years. The Villages has a habit of raising the RENT on various businesses until they give up and leave. The Villages is just a hard place to keep a business going. Lots of Villagers have the time and money to OFTEN go out to restaurants or bars. So, the various businesses have a BIG source of customers.
......Judging by traffic on 441 The whole Villages area is booming in the summer and even MORE in the winter. All of Florida has been increasing in population not decreasing. If things were so BAD in The Villages, then there would be FOR SALE signs on every block. Right now property values are HIGH.

In fact, listed homes are at historic highs in TV now. There are many reasons for that & to be fair, there are simply more homes now than in the past too. But do you actually assert there is no room for any improvement? Property values were high during Covid but values are declining due to many downward pressures including increasing fees & taxes and shifting demographics. The baby boomers are all over 65 now so new seniors will be fewer in years to come. Many seniors are still housing their GenXers because young folks cannot afford to buy their own home. Recent damage from unexpected &unprecedented flooding in Sarasota, to hurricane damage in Fort Myers & storm cleanup continuing in the panhandle have caused reasonable folks to push pause along with the stale national economy & high interest rates. Life in the bubble is still attractive but advocating for sticking your head in the sand is not helpful.

[jimjamuser]

Interesting thread. The OP has visited the Villages several times and has been doing extensive due diligence about where he wants to spend a good chunk his hard earned retirement savings. He is very wise to consider both the positives and potential issues of wherever he chooses to make his new home. People are often criticized on this forum for not doing their due diligence and then complaining later about things they should have know about beforehand. Ironically, some are now questioning him for trying to make such a big decision eyes wide open. I applaud him for being so thorough before making such an important decision and considering both the good and potential bad.

I have a few random thoughts on the concerns raised by the OP.

- The Villages never ages significantly, there is constant housing turnover for many reasons, including death, moving to assisted living, wanting to be closer to family and friends, seeking better and more accessible health care, etc…. Since we moved into our neighborhood 9 years ago, about half the homes have turned over and there has been a significant infusion of youth (by Villages standards).

- Speciality boutique retail stores have been closing rapidly in mature areas nationwide. This is not a trend unique to SS and LSL. Online shopping has basically killed that line of business everywhere. To the contrary, the vast number of big box stores in the northern section (with Costco coming soon), is evidence of that area thriving.

- The restaurant business has consistently had the highest failure rate of any business. The establishments that recently closed were basically drinking places that served mediocre pub food and attracted a large younger clientele from outside the bubble. That food is not fit for seniors to be eating on a consistent basis and won’t be missed by many. Dinning places come and go, but the well run and healthy options have better staying power.

- What areas are considered “shiny” is in the eyes of the beholder. I know many people, especially avid golfers, who would never consider living south of the golf mecca between the northern most parts of the Villages and Hillsborough Trail. I know others who don’t golf, but love having walking and bike paths that don’t allow golf carts and wouldn’t consider living north of 44. Neither area is better than the other, just different.

I would advise the OP to consider other potential issues not mentioned as part of his post in this thread. Those would include the availability of quality health care, the effects of investor owned properties and short term rentals, ever increasing traffic and congestion, the relatively non diversified economy of an area dominated by the largest retirement community in the world, the almost daily lighting from around mid June until early October, and the ever increasing expense of both homeowners and auto insurance. All that being said, the Villages is an absolutely wonderful place with no equal. It’s highly unlikely my wife and I would have a home in Florida if the Villages didn’t exist. Florida isn’t our calling, it’s life inside the bubble. Hopefully someday I’ll be able to have a beer with the OP when he becomes a fellow Villager : )
That was a VERY good point about the effect of on-line shopping on EVERY part of the US.

[Sandancer]

Love your thread, Topcfa.....I couldn't agree more! We are here 28 years {same house} and we couldn;t be happier!

[LianneMigiano]

Somethin might be going on at the old Margarita Republic space in Spanish Springs. Drove by today and the lower windows are all covered with dark paper and the lights were on inside.
Oh, darn! I was hoping that ALL of the emptied buildings would become more "senior housing" apartments all around the square. Then, change the nightly music to classical and instrumental only - where people could relax and sit peacefully in the square and near The Sharon, whenever the mood hit them. Pretty much every shopping need can be fulfilled within walking distance of the square - or within a very short ride (car or golf cart).
:bigbow:

[jimjamuser]

I visited my CT hometown in June. The HUGE mall constructed around 1980 was practically deserted at 5pm. All 4 anchor stores are out of business and have never gotten new tenants. A few food court restaurants and a few clothing stores. Pretty depressing!
I would say that it is caused by on-line stores and a decreasing of the US middle class.

[jimjamuser]

Spanish Springs has a revitalization plan to make it more like Brownwood. And the big Reina building is being turned into apartments. As long as there is re-investment in "older" areas I think The Villages will continue to do well. Of course sometimes it takes a lawsuit to spur that investment (First Responders Recreation Center, etc.).

Let's face it. We all like the *idea* of a cute little downtown with boutique shops to browse in, but as a tourist on vacation or a special occasion shopping trip, not somewhere where we shop on the regular. And restaurants in general have always been a tough business.

I also wonder what, if anything, will cause The Villages to lose its shine and favor in the top spot. Not maintaining and reinvesting in older areas is certainly one possibility, but I don't see that happening.

I think it will be larger shifts in the public consciousness. For example, home ownership. Right now lots of younger people prefer to rent things on a subscription than own them. A ZipCar membership is easier than maintaining your own car for example, if there is a ZipCar parking bay near where you live. These younger people will grow up and in 20 years might be thinking about retirement. Do they want to maintain their own house, hire the lawn service, pest service, fix stuff that breaks? Maybe The Villages will have to buy back some of their own homes that they built and manage them themselves as rentals. Or build more apartment buildings with communal ground-floors where people can gather and socialize with their neighbors indoors as well as out at the pool. Other trends besides home ownership might come into play, and The Villages may need to come up with much more varied models of neighborhoods. For example neighborhoods with community gardens, if that becomes more popular. Neighborhoods with native grasses and maintenance-free lawns instead of Florida grasses from hell. They might need to knock down some older houses to make way for such new developments. But I'm talking farther in the future. If they don't change and grow with the times, The Villages will become a less attractive place to be.

It is easy to look at The Villages and ponder what we would do differently if we started from scratch today. I have my own list:
- There are over 100 pools in The Villages but only two of them are zero-entry and only a dozen or so are of any decent size. There are also too few of them in the north. If I were a billionaire I would build an entire water park. Maybe even one of those inland beaches that they are building near Tampa. At least a lazy river!
- I would have made rec centers and the surrounding grounds a lot bigger, to accommodate all sorts of sports at each location. I know this is heathenistic but the amount of golf here takes up way too much real estate.
- I would have left a lot more trees in place. No shaded walking trails in the north is a big bummer.

Of course even with the resources, if I were to start to build the above, there wouldn't be enough people moving there right away to establish 3,000+ clubs that The Villages has. And that "first mover" advantage is huge.

If rising sea levels really start to claim the coasts, that will just force more Floridians into places like The Villages, so I think it's popularity will remain high even if adverse global weather starts to creep up, at least temporarily. Of course if Florida in its entirety is under water that is a different story.
I liked the "Florida grasses from HELL" comment. I think that a lot of young people would buy houses if they cost less. They just need to build up the supply of affordable homes. (Whatever happened to DOME houses?)

[jimjamuser]

I live South of 44, and yes, many are younger and still working. However, they are many, such as me, who are in their 50s, retired, and live here on a full-time basis. Also, many work locally or via remote jobs so they are here on a FT basis as well. To me, it seems like more of the older people are snowbirds because they can't tolerate the heat, whereas the younger folks, don't mind it as much.
Tolerance of heat is going to be very important to Florida residents.

[jimjamuser]

In fact, listed homes are at historic highs in TV now. There are many reasons for that & to be fair, there are simply more homes now than in the past too. But do you actually assert there is no room for any improvement? Property values were high during Covid but values are declining due to many downward pressures including increasing fees & taxes and shifting demographics. The baby boomers are all over 65 now so new seniors will be fewer in years to come. Many seniors are still housing their GenXers because young folks cannot afford to buy their own home. Recent damage from unexpected &unprecedented flooding in Sarasota, to hurricane damage in Fort Myers & storm cleanup continuing in the panhandle have caused reasonable folks to push pause along with the stale national economy & high interest rates. Life in the bubble is still attractive but advocating for sticking your head in the sand is not helpful.
I have written plenty of negative posts about Florida and questioning WHY there is such growth of population. IN this post I just wanted to STATE that Florida population was increasing. Just THAT FACT. I did NOT say whether I liked it or thought it is appropriate. which I do NOT. I have written posts where I suggest moving to North Carolina instead of Florida.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Your comment about the inability to staff residential care facilities is valid & sparked another thought for me. Often marrying two needs can solve two big problems at the same time. Low-paid young people also cannot find affordable housing. An innovative solution might be to convert, for example, the 1st floor into low-cost (or free?) housing for workers while the upper floors of a residential care facility remained for only seniors. Electronic key cards can easily restrict movement. Win-win.

I don't think anyone would want to live in the same residential home they work in. You'd be the first people they'd rely on to handle emergencies even on your day off. Your movements would be under constant scrutiny. Every minute of your life would be regulated. You'd basically be relegated to a 24/7 on-call dormitory assistant.

And what kind of people would you WANT having that kind of authority? I wouldn't want to give the responsibility to anyone who'd be interested in living in a residential care facility. I'd be too suspicious in wondering what was wrong with them.

On the other hand -

Perhaps if care facilities in cooperation with The Villages LLC built one of those kinds of Villages exclusive to medical employees, that'd be awesome. Maybe 20 family-only (minimum two adults with minimum 1 child any age) houses and a few apartment buildings with 8-10 units each, with studio, one bedroom, and 2 bedroom apartments and a covered parking area. The new medical village could be exclusive to all medical facility employees, giving a discount to nurses, aides, physical therapists, janitors, cafeteria workers. As long as they work full time in a medical facility in the area, they would qualify to live in one of these lower-rent, but quality homes or apartments. None of these homes would be for sale, they would all be rentals. That way if someone quits their medical employment job and starts selling Amway or decides to run an automotive repair shop instead, they could be kicked out and room made for another medical employee.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

...The baby boomers are all over 65 now so new seniors will be fewer in years to come. Many seniors are still housing their GenXers...

I just need to correct something here. The Baby Boom was from 1946-1964. I was born in 1961. I'm 63. I'm a Boomer. My sister is 60. She's also a Boomer. GenXers were born 1965-1980. That'd make them 44 years old to 59 years old. Most of them do NOT still live with their parents, and some are eligible to retire and live in 55+ housing.

Remember the youngest of us Boomers, aren't old enough to have given birth to any GenXers.

[nhkim]

Massachusetts is the most highly educated state in the country. Feel free to Google that. However we came here to escape the weather, high taxes and the far left political agenda. We love The Villages and you shouldn't paint everybody from Boston with a broad brush.

But New Hampshire is the most intelligent state. (From the 6/30/2024 edition of onfocus.news - TOTV wouldn't let me publish the link.)

Take that, Massachusetts!

[BrianL99]

But New Hampshire is the most intelligent state. (From the 6/30/2024 edition of onfocus.news - TOTV wouldn't let me publish the link.)

Take that, Massachusetts!

They must have done that analysis, without visiting NH.

I live in NH and calling it the "most intelligent" state is a colossal over-statement in my opinion.

I do believe it's the state with the highest % of population with a college degree. Although getting a degree from SNHU, is sort of like graduating from the 9th grade, when I went to high school.

[ChiTownJohnny]

Some time back I recall reading in another publication that such predictions of doom-and-gloom seem to be as regular as snowbird season and complaints about bad driving. There will always be those who see the glass as half-empty.

One of the things that fascinates me about them is the inevitable referral to "an aging population", as if that fact spells death for this-or-that area or business. Yeah--TV has an "aging population". But the result of aging is death. And as people die, they are replaced with younger folks. In our neighborhood we've had five families move in this year that I know of: two of them has one or both spouses still working remotely. the rest are younger retirees. The Village we live in came online in the late 1990s. My guess is that the average age of Villagers in our little corner of heaven is younger now than at any other time in the past ten years.

The other fallacy is "growth". As in mushrooms apparently. But the fact of the matter is that The Villages doesn't grow up. It grows OUT. Individual villages with their own individual character and architecture are pretty much constant. My guess is that, again using our Village as an example, if you went back in time to, say, Y2K and took a drive through it, virtually the ONLY difference you'd see between now and then is that the cars look somewhat different.

As to that "footprint" growing larger, in terms of space anyway, that is admittedly having an impact. But population outgrowing infrastructure, especially in a place growing as fast as TV (or Florida in general, for that matter) is natural. You won't see businesses being developed or medical services being implemented on merely the EXPECTATION of growth. The growth has to actually happen first. Infrastructure (services, roads, utilities, etc.) then is developed. But the settled, older neighborhoods aren't experiencing that. The last major infrastructure expansion here was the widening of 27/441. Businesses come and businesses go, but the restaurants closing in Spanish Springs are being replaced by restaurants that are significantly BETTER in most respects than the ones that have closed, and are doing commensurately better than the shuttered ones did. Don't confuse the results of healthy competition with "shrinkage" caused by whatever imagined reason.

TV is healthy. And as expansion continues and more and more opportunities and services are created, is getting healthier.
Well said.

[MorTech]

You have sites like Amazon dematerializing retail stores...You have older retirees who can't afford to eat out as often thanks to inflation. Retail and Eatery are becoming tough businesses.

[Laker14]

Many people who visit the squares during the day aren't Villagers at all. The land that all those stores is on, the buildings - they're all owned by the Villages LLC. And they NEED to profit, if they want to stay in business. They might not be interested in developing anymore, but they still own those properties and still have to profit from them. They won't profit if no one wants to lease their vacancies. They'll still have to pay property tax though, whether they have revenue or not.

In addition, all those people who -work- in the area - need a place to be. Spanish Springs is in a very unique position, immediately off 441 - and the opportunity for it to be a destination location rather than a conclave of shops for residents - is enormous. It's absolutely a missed opportunity.

I dunno. Maybe I've just worked in retail and in offices as an "employee" and "consumer" rather than a boss or corporate geek for too long, but my perspective is one of someone who used to serve people in "destination locations" or used to be a customer in those destination locations.

I can see it very easily as being a miniature version of downtown Mt. Dora, minus the boating lake and hills. Antiques and vintage clothing shop, tiny ethnic restaurants, boutique shops, knick-knack stores, small-batch beauty and skin shop, a "make your own ceramics" shop, an old fashioned but small retro-50's Five and Dime with a soda fountain counter... a location that no matter who you are, how old you are, what your budget is, or how often you come, you'll find SOMETHING in at least one store that you'll want to buy and can afford.

I think you and I are essentially in agreement here, in that we both see that what SS was initially designed to do, and to be, i.e. a place that would make buying a home in TV more attractive by offering music, entertainment, dining, in a cozy, golf cart accessible location, for residents of TV, is no longer working.
The developer that initially built it had a huge stake in making it exciting in order to sell neighborhoods. Now the motivation is simply to be a profitable entity in itself. As it does so, appealing more to a younger population that lives outside of TV will likely make it less appealing to the older folks living in TV.

With some encouragement from the salesforce, perhaps we Villagers have come to think of the squares as something of "ours", and they are not.
This is another aspect of how things change as TV grows. As the population outside of TV grows, the market that the commercial interests around the squares target will be less about residents of TV, and more about the "regular" population around TV. Basically it will depend upon who spends money there.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Wow! Lots of Massholes piping up here!

Massachusetts has some of the best schools in the country, mostly private, and some very good public ones.
It has very nice 4 seasons, and short drives to mountains for skiing, and beaches for swimming and oceans for fishing and boating.

Best place in the world to live with kids as parents. As retirees, not so much, however, they just raised the estate tax threshold to $2.0M, so that is a big help, but the cost of living is highly dependent upon the price of oil ->

heating with fuel oil
electricity is imported from Canada and natural gas generation plants have to have NG shipped in.
Agriculture is being slowly eliminated with housing expansion
Being one of the oldest areas in the country, land and housing costs are at a premium due to very little land left in urban areas
Most all fresh vegetables are trucked in, so varies with the price of oil

So the main reason for us to move to FL is the weather and the lower cost of heating and transportation should there be another oil crises like in the 70s. Winter can be tough in NE as one ages. . it was all COLA and weather, and very little about taxes, etc. the healthcare is all worth it.

As far as the OP observations, meh, friends who have purchased in Spanish Spring last year, are waiting on the P&S agreement after accepting an offer on their MA house, and will be moving down to FL by the end of October. And in the past year, several houses on their very small street have turned over with young buyers, so given enough time, what's old will be young again. Interesting, the more N houses may have better amenities as they were put in when the costs were very much lower, so there may be more available at various price points than new houses at the similar price points.. .

They are excited to move, and since our house purchase was an impulse purchase, bought a plot after 3 days haven't never heard of TV before someone said to try a lifestyle vest to play golf, one can certainly over analyze a purchase. . . they took 5 years to find the house which checked all their boxes. Great if you can wait 5 years, etc.

Analysis with paralysis comes to mind, but you can't go wrong with simple criteria:
Do you like the location? the street, the views and the distances to necessities
Do you like the house style / amenities which you desire?
Do you like the price?
Can you afford the life style for at least 20 more years?

Then all the boxes are checked, and put an offer in. .

good luck. .

[Glowing Horizon]

Spanish Springs has a revitalization plan to make it more like Brownwood. And the big Reina building is being turned into apartments. As long as there is re-investment in "older" areas I think The Villages will continue to do well. Of course sometimes it takes a lawsuit to spur that investment (First Responders Recreation Center, etc.).

Let's face it. We all like the *idea* of a cute little downtown with boutique shops to browse in, but as a tourist on vacation or a special occasion shopping trip, not somewhere where we shop on the regular. And restaurants in general have always been a tough business.

I also wonder what, if anything, will cause The Villages to lose its shine and favor in the top spot. Not maintaining and reinvesting in older areas is certainly one possibility, but I don't see that happening.

I think it will be larger shifts in the public consciousness. For example, home ownership. Right now lots of younger people prefer to rent things on a subscription than own them. A ZipCar membership is easier than maintaining your own car for example, if there is a ZipCar parking bay near where you live. These younger people will grow up and in 20 years might be thinking about retirement. Do they want to maintain their own house, hire the lawn service, pest service, fix stuff that breaks? Maybe The Villages will have to buy back some of their own homes that they built and manage them themselves as rentals. Or build more apartment buildings with communal ground-floors where people can gather and socialize with their neighbors indoors as well as out at the pool. Other trends besides home ownership might come into play, and The Villages may need to come up with much more varied models of neighborhoods. For example neighborhoods with community gardens, if that becomes more popular. Neighborhoods with native grasses and maintenance-free lawns instead of Florida grasses from hell. They might need to knock down some older houses to make way for such new developments. But I'm talking farther in the future. If they don't change and grow with the times, The Villages will become a less attractive place to be.

It is easy to look at The Villages and ponder what we would do differently if we started from scratch today. I have my own list:
- There are over 100 pools in The Villages but only two of them are zero-entry and only a dozen or so are of any decent size. There are also too few of them in the north. If I were a billionaire I would build an entire water park. Maybe even one of those inland beaches that they are building near Tampa. At least a lazy river!
- I would have made rec centers and the surrounding grounds a lot bigger, to accommodate all sorts of sports at each location. I know this is heathenistic but the amount of golf here takes up way too much real estate.
- I would have left a lot more trees in place. No shaded walking trails in the north is a big bummer.

Of course even with the resources, if I were to start to build the above, there wouldn't be enough people moving there right away to establish 3,000+ clubs that The Villages has. And that "first mover" advantage is huge.

If rising sea levels really start to claim the coasts, that will just force more Floridians into places like The Villages, so I think it's popularity will remain high even if adverse global weather starts to creep up, at least temporarily. Of course if Florida in its entirety is under water that is a different story.
central Florida nearly has more water UNDER it than its does around it so if water is your worry…

Me….I’m a water-lover. Looking at it, swimming in it, boating on it…bring it on!

My favorite things about Florida are its water, its sunshine and its people. I enjoy its ecology, its history & its growth. If it weren’t for being allergic to most seafood, I’d also love the food. Villagers are some of the luckiest people on the planet IMO. It’s not perfect but it’s pretty close.

[Glowing Horizon]

Fair points, but I think you miss a couple of factors of importance: The Developer is pretty much out of "developing" in the Spanish Springs area. Not totally, I admit, as the new efforts at the old Hacienda CC demonstrate, however, they are no longer building and selling entire neighborhoods up there. As a consequence they are no longer economically driven to provide any kind of entertainment or services in the Square with the idea of helping to sell homes. So, whatever goes into the commercial fronts at the Square will have to sink or swim on their own merits. Other than collecting rents, the Developer is not highly motivated.

2nd point: unlike 30 years ago when SS was first opened, there is a lot to find outside of TV, and it's no longer the only game in town.

So, as things continue to evolve, the Developer will likely, if it hasn't already started to happen, be forced to reduce rents, and commercial interests will have to find niches that work for the existing population.

Agree with most of your points but not about OBG & Spanish Springs. If the Developers were not continuing to build vast numbers of new homes & commercial, THEN their economic incentives toward OBG & SS would definitely decline. But they intend to sell to new people who would be very disincentivized if they were to see OBG or SS decline. Further, the Sharon is named after their family matron. Grandpa’s statue is in SS square. Nothing could be clearer. Retail & restaurants will need to evolve in TV just like they will in the rest of America. Since the demographic glut of baby boomers are all over 65 now, things will need to change. I’ve looked at several other places like OTOTW, Dell Webbs & Margaritavilles Ranch & others. TV remains hard to beat. Controlling taxes & fees will be critical IMO. Seniors need to be frugal & have controllable costs to have security & peace of mind TV has done a stellar job compared to others IMO.

[tophcfa]

Massachusetts is the most highly educated state in the country. Feel free to Google that.

The below cartoon meme could easily represent the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Throughout my career, I was required to work with many actuaries and investment professionals who were considered math geniuses, some with MIT degrees. There is a huge difference between being book smart and the ability to excel at taking difficult exams, and having street smarts and common sense. We always joked that the so called genius actuaries wore loafers because they couldn’t figure out how to tie their shoes. Full disclosure, I have both an undergraduate and masters degree from the University of Massachusetts, which was rather accurately nicknamed Zoo Mass back in those days.

[Glowing Horizon]

I think that the economy may pay at least a part in the problem. Inflation has reduced the spending power of many residents especially those on fixed incomes.
A major contributor among my friends is the lack of home affordability for younger people—their kids. Adult kids keep moving back in their parents’ home & those adult kids are mostly not married & don't have children of their own. Some move back with spouse & kids! Maybe the bubble is distorting reality. My friends have said things like “there is no revolving door on the front of M&D’s house!” These are the same kids who did not care about getting a drivers license or their first car! Things have definitely changed. I could not wait to get my license & my first car. Living at my parents’ house would have been unthinkable.

To those who defend older homes: take solace. Young adults seem to prefer older homes. They like the character & mature trees, established lawns, better build quality, etc.

[Laker14]

Agree with most of your points but not about OBG & Spanish Springs. If the Developers were not continuing to build vast numbers of new homes & commercial, THEN their economic incentives toward OBG & SS would definitely decline. But they intend to sell to new people who would be very disincentivized if they were to see OBG or SS decline. Further, the Sharon is named after their family matron. Grandpa’s statue is in SS square. Nothing could be clearer. Retail & restaurants will need to evolve in TV just like they will in the rest of America. Since the demographic glut of baby boomers are all over 65 now, things will need to change. I’ve looked at several other places like OTOTW, Dell Webbs & Margaritavilles Ranch & others. TV remains hard to beat. Controlling taxes & fees will be critical IMO. Seniors need to be frugal & have controllable costs to have security & peace of mind TV has done a stellar job compared to others IMO.

What is OBG? ( I know I'm going to be embarrassed after you explain it to me), but anyway I see your point.
My point, which I didn't express very well, is that what we see going on in SS is change, but not necessarily "struggle".
Certainly, it would not bode well for the developer, as they build new areas down south to have older areas appearing decayed and neglected. What I was meaning to convey was that what the vision was in 1994 is not what is needed now, and that is partly due to the fact that they aren't selling neighborhoods in the near vicinity, and that a lot of what was available there in the 90s was not competing with what is now available on 441 and 466.

[Jayhawk]

basically it will depend upon who spends money there.

105607

[Glowing Horizon]

If your original post was I am still trying to make decisions on where would I best fit in TV. Instead you chose words that didn’t put northern areas desirable. Think about it do you tell your parents wow I can’t believe you bought this house and where you moved What were you thinking? No, you have respect for other people and their choices.

I can definitely say that pretty much every resident that lives in TV thinks their Village is by far better than any other area. Why because it fits for them. When you doom and gloom a certain area, with closed restaurants, yet didn’t mention the new business replacements, or the new apartments, and retail. One will get less than constructive thoughts.

Regroup ask WHY do you love your area, you will find a much better view point. This is my needs do you have that available? I love the northern area with old trees,homes with architectural pride and their build, but not a fan of all the retail. We also don’t need a hospital or doctors in our back door.
That said we are on our Fourth home, and Village and I can say, we moved each time for larger garages, and more sf, a view, with safety in walking and biking. Plus less than 3 miles to turnpike for parks and Gainesville

Great info. Not everyone would move for those reasons but one can’t help but wonder why so many do. The fact that you chose to stay in TV speaks volumes about the variety of homes available & that they all offer a similarly wonderful lifestyle that you still prefer.

[Glowing Horizon]

What is OBG? ( I know I'm going to be embarrassed after you explain it to me), but anyway I see your point.
My point, which I didn't express very well, is that what we see going on in SS is change, but not necessarily "struggle".
Certainly, it would not bode well for the developer, as they build new areas down south to have older areas appearing decayed and neglected. What I was meaning to convey was that what the vision was in 1994 is not what is needed now, and that is partly due to the fact that they aren't selling neighborhoods in the near vicinity, and that a lot of what was available there in the 90s was not competing with what is now available on 441 and 466.
Sorry. By OBG I meant Orange Blossom Gardens. The beginning of it all.

What you said about Spanish Springs is valid but the area is beautiful & lush landscaping with mature trees & a laid-back vibe that the newer areas simply cannot compete with. Many of the homes have features which would be cost-prohibitive to add now, if you could. Being close to commerce, the hospital, doctors, LSL, many golf courses & country clubs as well as major thoroughfares is also hard to beat. In lots of ways, it’s still the heart of TV. The square at SS seems like an opportunity that’s waiting to be fulfilled to me.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Couple of things:
OBG, Orange Blossom Gardens, is what The Villages was before they renamed it The Villages. It's now known as the Historic Area, the three villages on the other side of 441: Orange Blossom Garden, Country Club Hills, and Silver Lake. It's up across from Spanish Springs Town Square.

Also, there are new homes being built near Spanish Springs by the developer. Memories are short around here but there was a huge to-do, major lawsuits, fights between the town and the Developer and residents, with regards to the former Hacienda Country Club property. The new pool and walking trails and some other parts of the recreation area are already up, and they're working on the rest of it. In addition, the apartments in the building that used to be Katie Bell's aren't rented yet. It would be in the Developer's best interest to maintain or improve the current vacancy situation in the Square.

I'm not overly concerned about modernization, bringing in a "younger" set of stores. In fact I'd look forward to it. Spanish Springs has been marketed to people who were 60 in the 1980's. Any of those people who are still alive, likely don't go shopping in the the squares anymore. They need to update their retail offerings to appeal to people my age or younger (late Boomers to early GenXers), or they will completely lose touch with their revenue stream.

[Papa_lecki]

The developer that initially built it had a huge stake in making it exciting in order to sell neighborhoods. Now the motivation is simply to be a profitable entity in itself.

Sorry, but the squares were always commercial real estate, and the goal of commercial real estate is to make money.

Just as the goal of the golf courses isn’t golf, it’s water management (civil engineering).

They just both were shown to you through the eyes of marketing.

[Pairadocs]

[QUOTE=Papa_lecki;2366133]

Yes, it sucks here.
Houses are falling down, the squares are a ghosttown, no one is there.

This place has always had part time residents. You don’t think the business model is set up for that?

Yes, agree.... seems to be in it's last months doesn't it....LOL ! But seriously, do you think the person (?) posting such comments (seemingly from visiting a few times and able to describe it as a "ghost-town" ? ? ) is actually a person considering the Villages ? Personally, I think this might be a "person" much more interested in one of the many other developments that while very nice, are certainly not consistently named the top active life style community in the USA...me thinks this might just have some ulterior motive ?

[Craig Vernon]

Too many points to hit them all so here are a few. I am not a real person. I am trying to create a conspiracy on a site about a retirement location. Yes, I stated some opinions to ask other thoughts to create a discussion. My evil plan was indeed to say how horrible TV are vailed in a question. I am just another expert on TV talking to a bunch of other experts with better opinions than mine. My post sucked with more views and comments than any other one. My plot ends here until I make another random attack on so many of you. Sorry I can't figure out how to make an evil laugh to end here. So have a Great day.

[kkingston57]

Yes, it sucks here.
Houses are falling down, the squares are a ghosttown, no one is there.

This place has always had part time residents. You don’t think the business model is set up for that?

Seriously, stop believing what you read. You aren’t even here. TOTV represents probably 5% of the Villagers. The VLOGGERS, same thing, they need to complain to get views, no one will watch a YouTube video saying everything is great.

He politely gave current information. Change is always occurring.

[kkingston57]

For me..... I don't care for the many boutique shops that are offered within the squares, and so I don't shop there. Women's clothing is very junior league/preppy and much too expensive for my taste. Trendy home decor also expensive.

I couldn't resist a fall outfit at Brownwood (Evelyn & Arthur) for an upcoming trip. I bit the bullet and paid way too much for stretch pants ($80) and long-sleeve sweater ($146). It is quality material that fit well and I looked great in it :D, but never again will I pay that much... :jester:

My Villages lifestyle clothing is more Bealls, Kohl's, etc. Looking forward to having a Target closer to home. Would be nice when shops are vacated that they bring in reasonably priced shopping options.

Small retail problems are not just in TV. Amazon and the better run department stores have taken over,

[Laker14]

Sorry. By OBG I meant Orange Blossom Gardens. The beginning of it all.

What you said about Spanish Springs is valid but the area is beautiful & lush landscaping with mature trees & a laid-back vibe that the newer areas simply cannot compete with. Many of the homes have features which would be cost-prohibitive to add now, if you could. Being close to commerce, the hospital, doctors, LSL, many golf courses & country clubs as well as major thoroughfares is also hard to beat. In lots of ways, it’s still the heart of TV. The square at SS seems like an opportunity that’s waiting to be fulfilled to me.

Our place is in Poinciana, and when I travel up to Lopez or Hacienda, or SS I see exactly what you describe. It's much more to my liking than what I see when I cart it on down to Southern Oaks.

[Laker14]

As the population outside of TV grows, the market that the commercial interests around the squares target will be less about residents of TV, and more about the "regular" population around TV. Basically it will depend upon who spends money there.

105607

Indeed. From some of the posts I've read on TOTV, I get the impression that many residents of TV seem to think that the squares are an amenity of TV. Something that we pay for and therefore should be aimed to appeal to an older generation who basically see it as free, or at least "already paid for" entertainment. I've read posts complaining and fretting about seeing "young people obviously up to no good" around the squares at night.

What I envision for the future of the squares is more stuff appealing to the non-TV'ers, who live nearby. That population is also growing, and IMO, more likely to spend money than us old geezers who want to listen to free music (preferably 40 or 50 year old music), while we bring our own booze from home.

[Jayhawk]

Too many points to hit them all so here are a few. I am not a real person. I am trying to create a conspiracy on a site about a retirement location. Yes, I stated some opinions to ask other thoughts to create a discussion. My evil plan was indeed to say how horrible TV are vailed in a question. I am just another expert on TV talking to a bunch of other experts with better opinions than mine. My post sucked with more views and comments than any other one. My plot ends here until I make another random attack on so many of you. Sorry I can't figure out how to make an evil laugh to end here. So have a Great day.

Don't fall for the complaints and negativity of so few. With 150,000 + reisdents, there are bound to be some Richard Craniums, and unfortunatly many have found their way to this site.

Learn to ignore them and love your life when you get here.

:gc:

[Aces4]

Too many points to hit them all so here are a few. I am not a real person. I am trying to create a conspiracy on a site about a retirement location. Yes, I stated some opinions to ask other thoughts to create a discussion. My evil plan was indeed to say how horrible TV are vailed in a question. I am just another expert on TV talking to a bunch of other experts with better opinions than mine. My post sucked with more views and comments than any other one. My plot ends here until I make another random attack on so many of you. Sorry I can't figure out how to make an evil laugh to end here. So have a Great day.

You'll learn not to kick the beast, no thought provoking comments are appreciated unless they are about the stock market. :loco:

The issues you questioned are excellent thought for fodder and no apologies are needed. (You may notice there is also a certain lack of reading comprehension for some.) Keep posting and don't be deterred by the lock-steppers.

[Packer Fan]

TV's are continuing to struggle internally as residents age and the footprint gets larger. The oldest areas seem to be losing businesses as the shiny new areas develop. It seems to me that it would be very difficult to maintain a business with so many part time residents and an aging population that has less need, desire or ability to leave their homes to support them. Spanish Springs and Sumter landing are losing staple businesses, and there do not seem to be people knocking the doors down to fill any of them. Outside and nearby things are booming with construction and development. Perhaps the apartments, family areas and cheaper housing around TV will save the day. Perhaps the bubble will turn into a landlocked beach town where certain businesses close during off season periods. Your thoughts and opinions welcome. See you as a full-time neighbor coming early next year. Have a Great day!

I am going to reply without reading 9 pages of back and forth so this is what I see. Having been here for 2 months this summer, we have had a lot of time to drive around and shop and it is easy to compare what things were like 10 years ago when we bought our first home in Hillsborough. Spanish springs may be struggling just a bit, but with Blondies in now, it has been hopping.
Lake Sumter Landing and Brownwood are BOOMING. LSL is as busy as we have ever seen, and that is in AUGUST. We have been there during the day and in the evening. There are new restaurants and several new businesses (although we lost one we really liked). Overall, if I was collecting rent I would be VERY happy.
Shopping "up north" in the strip malls and "outside the villages" - they can't build stuff fast enough. They are building new stuff up on 466 with a new Hobby Lobby and a lot of other stuff. They are building like crazy on 466A, Wildwood, Fruitland park. Heck, they are opening a new home goods store up by Spanish springs, and BJs is up there now too.....
Brownwood is a constant Jam packed city.

I have to say Craig, I could not disagree more..... Not what we are observing anyway.

PS- Drive by Key St when you are here, you won't recognize it.... we have done a ton of upgrades.

Ed

[Laker14]

I am going to reply without reading 9 pages of back and forth so this is what I see. Having been here for 2 months this summer, we have had a lot of time to drive around and shop and it is easy to compare what things were like 10 years ago when we bought our first home in Hillsborough. Spanish springs may be struggling just a bit, but with Blondies in now, it has been hopping.
Lake Sumter Landing and Brownwood are BOOMING. LSL is as busy as we have ever seen, and that is in AUGUST. We have been there during the day and in the evening. There are new restaurants and several new businesses (although we lost one we really liked). Overall, if I was collecting rent I would be VERY happy.
Shopping "up north" in the strip malls and "outside the villages" - they can't build stuff fast enough. They are building new stuff up on 466 with a new Hobby Lobby and a lot of other stuff. They are building like crazy on 466A, Wildwood, Fruitland park. Heck, they are opening a new home goods store up by Spanish springs, and BJs is up there now too.....
Brownwood is a constant Jam packed city.

I have to say Craig, I could not disagree more..... Not what we are observing anyway.

PS- Drive by Key St when you are here, you won't recognize it.... we have done a ton of upgrades.

Ed

which restaurant closed up?

[Happydaz]

Too many points to hit them all so here are a few. I am not a real person. I am trying to create a conspiracy on a site about a retirement location. Yes, I stated some opinions to ask other thoughts to create a discussion. My evil plan was indeed to say how horrible TV are vailed in a question. I am just another expert on TV talking to a bunch of other experts with better opinions than mine. My post sucked with more views and comments than any other one. My plot ends here until I make another random attack on so many of you. Sorry I can't figure out how to make an evil laugh to end here. So have a Great day.

Your response is right on. You posted an inflammatory “TV concept struggling as it grows and ages” and sat back and pretended to be looking for information and constructive comments. The homes all over the Villages are well landscaped and well cared for. Like all neighborhoods they will be sold and resold many times over the years and the area will continue to be a popular. Winterpark and Mt Dora, Florida are examples of beautiful communities where retirees from the north originally settled. The older homes there are eagerly snapped up when they go on sale. Middle minded Americans decrying the end of the Villages is a silly, vapid exercise in mendacity.

[Papa_lecki]

Lake Sumter Landing and Brownwood are BOOMING.

We walked around Brownwood Friday night, it was as crowded on the last Friday in August as it was on any night in February or March.

[Aces4]

Your response is right on. You posted an inflammatory “TV concept struggling as it grows and ages” and sat back and pretended to be looking for information and constructive comments. The homes all over the Villages are well landscaped and well cared for. Like all neighborhoods they will be sold and resold many times over the years and the area will continue to be a popular. Winterpark and Mt Dora, Florida are examples of beautiful communities where retirees from the north originally settled. The older homes there are eagerly snapped up when they go on sale. Middle minded Americans decrying the end of the Villages is a silly, vapid exercise in mendacity.

I wonder if the old people replying so toxically realize that a younger person has more concerns about stability, development and future trends of The Villages than someone with 10 years left on their life, if they're lucky. Posing questions about the future of The Villages is NOT inflammatory, I do think many protest too much... do they fear something? chilout

[Happydaz]

I wonder if the old people replying so toxically realize that a younger person has more concerns about stability, development and future trends of The Villages than someone with 10 years left on their life, if they're lucky. Posing questions about the future of The Villages is NOT inflammatory, I do think many protest too much... do they fear something? chilout

It is one thing to “pose questions about the future of the Villages” and a completely different tone in stating that the “TV concept struggling as it grows and ages.” One states a general question of interest the second quote is inflammatory and insulting to Villagers. Who says the concept is struggling? Some person who doesn’t even live here yet? What does age have to do with accuracy. Maybe people here awhile know how well this place is run and how beautiful all the different Villages are.

[graciegirl]

Wondering why you want to become full time, with such doomsday forecasting?

I so agree with Bogie Shooter. The population does age and they move on to the village of Heavenly and new and younger people buy their homes. Many businesses have died nationally and globally due to the pandemic....like Movie Theaters and many, many, restaurants cannot get reliable help that shows up and/or knows how to cook....due to the payment of non workers AND many restaurants cannot keep their "budget" status due to the raise of minimum pay. Fast Food is no longer cheap and Villagers do usually have a "fixed" budget or watch what they spend carefully. The problems you see here are everywhere and not a problem with The Villlages. It still is very desired and homes sell quickly for good reason.

[margaretmattson]

Doomsday? An observation about current events. My wife and I love TV's but there are problems developing that are worth discussing. Sorry you don't think so. Be Well!Many commercial outlets have closed their doors throughout the USA. There is nothing unique happening in the older section of TV. Middleton and Eastport will have a difficult time filling ALL the spaces available.

I read Spanish Springs is getting a new restaurant called the Patio. A neighbor told me City Fire has interest in the World of Beer Location. Things have been changing in Spanish Springs for many many years. When it was first built thirty years ago, there was a vegetable market, bakery, Katie Belles, a church, and a unique home decor store. ALL GONE! Starbucks came and went, as well as several restaurants. Lake Sumter has seen businesses come and go. Brownwood has seen a few turnovers.There is nothing different or alarming happening now. Same ol' same ol'.

[Aces4]

It is one thing to “pose questions about the future of the Villages” and a completely different tone in stating that the “TV concept struggling as it grows and ages.” One states a general question of interest the second quote is inflammatory and insulting to Villagers. Who says the concept is struggling? Some person who doesn’t even live here yet? What does age have to do with accuracy. Maybe people here awhile know how well this place is run and how beautiful all the different Villages are.

Age has much to do with planning. If one is an old lady or old man living here over 5 years, blinders work beautifully. If one is a younger person in their 50's or early 60's, they want to move here with eyes wide open.

And, yes, The Villages concept has struggled with the closing of Katie Belle's, apartments where businesses earlier, closing of the country club by Mira Mesa golf course area and probably more changes to come.

You are invested here, it's understandable to attack to protect the image but open eyes are necessary for those considering where to spend their money and retirement.

[MrChip72]

The fact that they don't go overboard about enforcing BYOB makes me very willing to buy a draft beer or two while I'm there. The beer price is fair if you're only buying a couple.

[Bilyclub]

It was very nice last night not dealing with the usual masses when the Holligans are in town. Looks like they won't be back until New Years Eve.