Lets' be careful----toss up question

[Talk Host]

Almost every time there is a discussion about police enforcing automobile or golf cart speed in The Villages, there is a flurry of comment that the police apparently have nothing better to do. It's posted that they are doing it to raise money for the county coffers. The comments read like a "us versus them" story.

Here's my question (questions). At what amount of speed over the limit should tickets be given? 10, 20, 30 over, or what? Or, should no tickets be given in The Villages.

If unregistered golf carts are permitted to travel a maximum of 19.5 miles per hour, at what speed should they be ticketed? 21, 33, 43 or what? Or should police mind their own business and leave all golf carts alone?

I am interested in replies from those who have complained about the police enforcing the speed laws. :popcorn:

[F16 1UB]

Don't feel that law enforcement needs to issue citations. I saw 1 guy last summer come out of the bank using a blind persons cane. Then he gets in his golf cart and drives away. Now I REALLY don't feel as though he should be ticketed if he exceeds the non-posted golf cart speed limit. Come on - he probably couldn't see it anyway. True Story.

[Russ_Boston]

I know some cops and they usually say that they will give leeway to a highway speed of 9 mph over (in our area that would be 74 max). But they are more strict on smaller side roads.

In TV I would give golf carts leeway up to 23 mph.

I'd like them to concentrate more on reckless actions and maybe more education on round-a-bouts. What I mean is, if they see a bad roundabout move, pull the person over and explain what they did and how dangerous it is. Give them a warning (into the system so they can look it up if they stop them again). I personally think the round-a-bout moves are more dangerous than speeding down the straight away.

[Taltarzac]

Don't feel that law enforcement needs to issue citations. I saw 1 guy last summer come out of the bank using a blind persons cane. Then he gets in his golf cart and drives away. Now I REALLY don't feel as though he should be ticketed if he exceeds the non-posted golf cart speed limit. Come on - he probably couldn't see it anyway. True Story.

Have you been taking lessons from Fumar, F16 1UB? I suppose he would only want tickets if there were dogs in the golf carts?

It depends on the circumstances to me about when cops should give tickets. Definitely in the school zones at the proper times BUT it also seems like there are areas in the Villages-- like on Belvedere in front of the high school-- where almost all the cars trucks and golf carts are doing better than the 20 m.p.h. speed limit for the school zone. It is a different story on CR466 where I see them pulling over speeders in their vehicles quite often in the school zones.

If a golf cart is zooming down a stretch that is barren of any other kind of traffic the driver should have some leeway. Now if he/she is speeding around in the crowded squares, nail the person.

[dpingram]

As a teacher, my second grade students most recent writing example had to be an explanation. I gave them this topic.... Why we have rules at school....
Think about it!

[NJblue]

I agree completely with Russ. The purpose of all traffic laws and their enforcement is public safety. Police need to prioritize what laws they are to enforce and how strictly they are to be enforced based on how much of a danger the violation puts the public in. Quite frankly, I don't see a golf cart going 23 mph versus 20 mph as very much of a danger at all. I would MUCH rather have the officer spend his/her time making sure that the cars going through the roundabouts follow the rules. This represents a much bigger threat to my safety than a golf cart passing me.

I have never come close to having my safety feel threatened by a speeding golf cart. On the other hand I have had far too many close calls on roundabouts with people thinking that they can use the outer loop regardless of where they want to go.

I feel that sometimes the police are just lazy in their law enforcement philosophy. Since the technology exists to make a black and white citation of speeding (with radar guns), they choose to put all of the emphasis on that versus having to observe violations such as traffic circle scofflaws where the citation and potential follow-up legal court appearance is more difficult.

[vj1213]

I agree with Russ. The laws are there for a reason....we all know the rules, so follow them and there won't be a problem. If you break them, be willing to pay the price. And yes, I do believe people should be ticketed, this applies to golf carts and cars alike. Am I saying that I am the perfect driver, absolutely not...sometimes I have a heavy foot....I got a ticket my second week of living here, but I paid it without complaining because I was in the wrong.

[Regor]

A guy goes in a store with a gun robs it and only gets $3, should he be let off because he only got $3? The law is the law! If you you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime!

[l2ridehd]

I would allow about 10% before giving a ticket. So 22 mph on golf carts, 55 in a 50 zone, 77 in a 70 etc. A concept some folks have a hard time understanding is the law is the law. Going 55 in a 50 mph zone you could pass most cops without a problem. (except in Waldo and Starky) There 51 in a 50 gets you a ticket. But 120 in a 50 will get you handcuffed and jail time.

So yes there are degrees of breaking the law. Getting only $3 in a robbery is not the question. It could be $3 or $300,000. It is doing the robbery with a gun vs a baseball bat. One gets you probation, the other gets you jail time. Unless of course you use either weapon. Then the degree of the crime changes.

[NJblue]

I've seen this concept of percentages used before. The problem with it is that it is not consistent with the danger that results. Taking into account reaction time, breaking distances and resulting damages based on the size of the vehicle, a 2 ton vehicle going 77 versus 70 is FAR more lethal than a golf cart going 22 versus 20. To treat them both as equal threats to public safety does not make any sense.

[RichieLion]

Police, I'm told and have seen myself, usually will pull over the driver who is driving aggressively or erratically on the road even though others are also exceeding the speed limit, but otherwise driving smoothly.

If I was a cop and I saw a cart going a bit over the limit but otherwise driving safely I would probably give him a pass, but if I saw him swerving around legal carts going the limit or failing to slow around recreational participants, I would nab him.

[chuckinca]

I vote for 23 mph - our cart will do 22.5 mph. I don't normally drive with the pedal to the metal but could if the boss said to get a move on.


.

[Shimpy]

Anytime there is a discussion on speed, there is goody two shoes who drives 5 mph under the limit in the passing lane and won't let traffic by and will rant and rave about people shouldn't be in a hurry. I agree with I2ridehd that 10% plus is reasonable in good weather conditions. Two or three mph + or - can be contributed to police radar or laser error, speedometer error, or a combination of both. If you have a cart that will go exactly 19.9 mph and think anything over at all should be given a ticket, then you will get one when you have a 15 to 20 mph tail wind. I have a speedometer on mine that reads to .1 mph and can see the difference heading into the wind and away from the wind, not to mention up or down hill.

[Mikeod]

This discussion brings back the memory of my high school driving instructor, Mr. Torpey. He once asked us a question that I have not forgotten. He asked what he should do if the traffic on the road outside our school was traveling at 45 mph when the limit was 40 mph. Because we were all trying to make sure we got our licenses, we answered 40. Nope, he replied. To go 40 would create more problems than doing 45 and keeping with the flow of traffic.

I think law enforcement personnel keep that in mind when determining whether to ticket someone or not. I think if you're traveling with the flow of traffic and not aggressively or unsafely, they will let you slide with a few mph over the limit. (Except in a school zone!!!!)

[ajbrown]

I agree with most of the posts here regarding golf cart speed. I personally see no safety issue caused by a cart that goes 21-23MPH. (Yes, yes, yes I know it is no longer a golf cart). I personally did not soup up my cart so I could pass other villagers. The cart is a 02 Club Car. It topped out at 20 MPH as it should by design on flats. The issue with this cart was that if it was into the wind or up a slight grade the speed would drop to 17-18 MPH, how about 15 MPH through the mountains of Mallory. This always would bug me as I felt like I was holding up carts that can go 19-20 MPH all the time.

What I discovered is there no easy or inexpensive solution to this. I did as others who wish to resolve this do and put in a high speed motor ($400) which gets the cart up hills of Mallory at 18 MPH and it can maintain 20 on minor grades. The problem with that is it solution is now the cart goes 23-24 on flats. I have a speed ohmmeter and I keep it less that 21 when I am travelling on a road, e.g., Morse north of 466 to avoid speed traps. I also have a personal rule that I will never pass a cart going the speed limit (about 20 MPH) even if I can. Pulling me over for going 22MPH and giving me a ticket does not raise safety on the cart paths in TV one bit IMO.

With that said, I think a safety issue is how the carts that go 24-25 MPH are driven. Some drivers run up on your tail even as as you are going 20 dodging in and out looking to pass every cart they can. Have you ever witnessed a cart passing 3 to 5 carts all the way up Beuna Vista through the Palmer stretch. very scary, makes my blood boil I must admit.

If the police wish to crack down on golf cart speeding/safety, buy 4 unmarked carts that go 19.9MPH. Drive them up and down Morse and BV by Palmer pulling over everyone who passes passes them.....

[Redtail]

I agree with most of the posts here regarding golf cart speed. I personally see no safety issue caused by a cart that goes 21-23MPH. (Yes, yes, yes I know it is no longer a golf cart). I personally did not soup up my cart so I could pass other villagers. The cart is a 02 Club Car. It topped out at 20 MPH as it should by design on flats. The issue with this cart was that if it was into the wind or up a slight grade the speed would drop to 17-18 MPH, how about 15 MPH through the mountains of Mallory. This always would bug me as I felt like I was holding up carts that can go 19-20 MPH all the time.

What I discovered is there no easy or inexpensive solution to this. I did as others who wish to resolve this do and put in a high speed motor ($400) which gets the cart up hills of Mallory at 18 MPH and it can maintain 20 on minor grades. The problem with that is it solution is now the cart goes 23-24 on flats. I have a speed ohmmeter and I keep it less that 21 when I am travelling on a road, e.g., Morse north of 466 to avoid speed traps. I also have a personal rule that I will never pass a cart going the speed limit (about 20 MPH) even if I can. Pulling me over for going 22MPH and giving me a ticket does not raise safety on the cart paths in TV one bit IMO.

With that said, I think a safety issue is how the carts that go 24-25 MPH are driven. Some drivers run up on your tail even as as you are going 20 dodging in and out looking to pass every cart they can. Have you ever witnessed a cart passing 3 to 5 carts all the way up Beuna Vista through the Palmer stretch. very scary, makes my blood boil I must admit.

If the police wish to crack down on golf cart speeding/safety, buy 4 unmarked carts that go 19.9MPH. Drive them up and down Morse and BV by Palmer pulling over everyone who passes passes them.....

i drive a lsv and i was passed 3 times today by golf carts on rio grande. some of these carts are really out of control.

[Pturner]

I know some cops and they usually say that they will give leeway to a highway speed of 9 mph over (in our area that would be 74 max). But they are more strict on smaller side roads.

In TV I would give golf carts leeway up to 23 mph.

I'd like them to concentrate more on reckless actions and maybe more education on round-a-bouts. What I mean is, if they see a bad roundabout move, pull the person over and explain what they did and how dangerous it is. Give them a warning (into the system so they can look it up if they stop them again). I personally think the round-a-bout moves are more dangerous than speeding down the straight away.

Makes sense to me.

[Pturner]

As a teacher, my second grade students most recent writing example had to be an explanation.

As a teacher, you shouldn't have written that sentence. :sad:

[downeaster]

It is my understanding a golf cart going 25MPH in a 25MPH zone it is not ticketed for speeding. After all, it is not exceeding the limit. It is ticketed for not being properly registered, insured or equipped. This is more serious than a speeding ticket and requires the offender to appear in court.

A golf cart capable of exceeding 20MPH is in violation at any speed. Capable is the key word and it is clearly spelled out in Florida Statutes. If such a cart is involved in an accident, regardless of speed or fault, the police and the insurance adjuster will check it throughly.

BTW, there are some cart repair firms that will no longer make any adjustments that will enable the cart to exceed 20MPH.

[skyguy79]

It is my understanding a golf cart going 25MPH in a 25MPH zone it is not ticketed for speeding. After all, it is not exceeding the limit. It is ticketed for not being properly registered, insured or equipped. This is more serious than a speeding ticket and requires the offender to appear in court.

A golf cart capable of exceeding 20MPH is in violation at any speed. Capable is the key word and it is clearly spelled out in Florida Statutes. If such a cart is involved in an accident, regardless of speed or fault, the police and the insurance adjuster will check it throughly.

In line with what you stated above, I thought you and others would be interested in the following article:

http://www.tampastpetersburginjurylawyer.com/2009/06/the-villages-florida-residents.html

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/cursormania/files/9/4826.gif

[JUREK]

I agree with Russ and Ritchie. Cut them a break. They should have better things to do.:thumbup::thumbup:

[cybermuda]

Why the rush?

[Bogie Shooter]

Why the rush?
Its a macho thing.

[Talk Host]

I agree with Russ and Ritchie. Cut them a break. They should have better things to do.:thumbup::thumbup:

How about the question. At what speed do you not cut them a break? How much over the limit?.

[NJblue]

How about the question. At what speed do you not cut them a break? How much over the limit?.

If the police have everyone going through the roundabouts in full compliance then they can start to ticket golf carts going 25 since 5 mph over seems to be a generally recognized margin that is given to autos.

[Bosoxfan]

A golf cart capable of exceeding 20MPH is in violation at any speed. Capable is the key word and it is clearly spelled out in Florida Statutes. If such a cart is involved in an accident, regardless of speed or fault, the police and the insurance adjuster will check it throughly.

.

I have a 2010 EZ Go that I bought new! I've never done anything to it to speed it up but it goes 23 (actually 22.9) mph.What are my options?

[Bryan]

I think a lot has to do with the training of law enforcement officers and how much discretion they have in issuing citations. The law is the law so anything over the posted speed limit makes you 'fair game' to be stopped. I support stopping people (cars and golf carts) breaking the law. One problem is that there are so many, which one does the officer stop? That's where their judgment come in. The aggressive, reckless, belligerent, freely giving out one finger salutes, etc., driver(s) get stopped over the polite, careful but 'fast' driver. Once someone is stopped, whether a verbal warning, written warning, or ticket is given depends (not in any order of importance) on the degree of violation (3 miles over limit vs 10 miles over limit), attitude, cooperation, demeanor, other observed driving behaviors and/or violations, and (of course) their past record. This requires a fairly sophisticated degree of judgment and discretion on the part of the officer involved. Most are trained and ready for that but a few are not. As far as traffic circle law enforcement goes, a few more dash cams and 'red light cameras' will take care of problems caused by 'citizens' wanting to fight those tickets in court.

[ajdeck]

Almost every time there is a discussion about police enforcing automobile or golf cart speed in The Villages, there is a flurry of comment that the police apparently have nothing better to do. It's posted that they are doing it to raise money for the county coffers. The comments read like a "us versus them" story.

Here's my question (questions). At what amount of speed over the limit should tickets be given? 10, 20, 30 over, or what? Or, should no tickets be given in The Villages.

If unregistered golf carts are permitted to travel a maximum of 19.5 miles per hour, at what speed should they be ticketed? 21, 33, 43 or what? Or should police mind their own business and leave all golf carts alone?

I am interested in replies from those who have complained about the police enforcing the speed laws. :popcorn:


Maybe, just maybe, a golf cart path should be used for a true golf cart. If anyone wants a road legal then they should be restricted to 'THE ROADS'. That way the people who are trying to enjoy their retirement at a peaceful pace (and who came here for that reason) can enjoy and the fast pace ones can just go as fast as they want on the roads without holding anyone up.
aj

[skip0358]

Just some info I was given at diner the other night. A lady went over to pay her ticket. She was told it would take a while for her fine to be posted.Reason being PD has found a cash cow in TV. They're at least a week behind because of the number of tickets being handed out in TV. Tickets equal a LOT of money. This doesn't mean they're all from TV residents. That's why they target Morse and BuenaVista so much. I think the golf cart situation has calmed a lot. But the problem is once a GC goes over the GC legal limit it's not a golf cart. Therefore the fine is more MONEY then the speeding ticket would be. Question for those in the know. If you get a ticket for unregister motor vehicle on your GC what does the insurance company do? And does it go on your liscence since you don't need a liscence to drive a GC. But if your going over 19.9 it not considered a GC ? So then you need a liscense.

[memason]

I just don't get it.... I've driven all over TV, in my golf cart and just don't see the issues that are discussed on this forum. Driving a golf cart is no different than driving a car. People do boneheaded things in carts; they do boneheaded things in cars... including me! Doesn't matter if I'm going 19.92543 or 29.93465 in my cart. When I do something stupid, I wave and say "sorry". I normally get a return wave and a smile.

TV is the safest place I have ever lived, in every respect!

So, to answer the question, at what speed should the police ticket golf carts? I don't care about speed, if the cart is driven reasonably; with the flow and not recklessly... the police should have more important issues to address.

Just my opinion and I know it'll be unpopular on here... But, here's my :wave:and "sorry".

[Sonny39]

:agree:

[laryb]

I just don't get it.... I've driven all over TV, in my golf cart and just don't see the issues that are discussed on this forum. Driving a golf cart is no different than driving a car. People do boneheaded things in carts; they do boneheaded things in cars... including me! Doesn't matter if I'm going 19.92543 or 29.93465 in my cart. When I do something stupid, I wave and say "sorry". I normally get a return wave and a smile.

TV is the safest place I have ever lived, in every respect!

So, to answer the question, at what speed should the police ticket golf carts? I don't care about speed, if the cart is driven reasonably; with the flow and not recklessly... the police should have more important issues to address.

Just my opinion and I know it'll be unpopular on here... But, here's my :wave:and "sorry".

I agree. After spending last weekend in TV, I've changed my mind on the speeding cart issue. On 4 separate occasions I was cutoff on roundabouts by speeders, one of which being a younger person in a souped up vehicle. I am not the slowest driver and tend to have a bit of a lead foot, but I always think about what I'm doing before entering the roundabout. I would rather have the police put more of their attention on the roads than on carts. I do recognize a need to control cart speed to a degree, and 23 / 24mph seems reasonable to me. While I think a police presence is a good thing that makes us all feel safer, there is also a limit. I want to relax and enjoy TV, not wonder if someone is watching at every corner. and waiting to punish me for every mistake I may make. I may be wrong, but that's just the way I feel.

[NJblue]

I agree memason - I just don't get the reaction against golf carts or LSVs going faster than 20 mph as long as they are being driven non-aggresively. What is it about someone passing you that makes you resent the other driver? When I am passed it makes me feel good that I am no longer holding the other person up and I am now free to slow down if there is something that attracts my attention.

To the people wanting LSVs banned from cart paths - be careful for what you wish. Do you really want a parade of LSVs cruising up Buena Vista at 25 mph with a line of cars and trucks behind them jockeying for position to get by? I suspect that when you are one of the ones caught in the parade that you would wish that the LSVs were back on the cart paths.

[Talk Host]

A traffic enforcement area becomes a "cash cow" only when there is an abundance of motorists violating the law. The violations come before the cash.

If the IRS found a group of people in a specific area who were evading their taxes and fined them, would that be a cash cow or enforcement of tax laws.

Again, I think it's important to remember that police officers do only what they are told to do by their superiors who are told what to do by the officials that you elect. Can you imaging an office saying to the captain, "No sir I don't agree with giving tickets in The Villages, so I won't be doing that today."

YOU ELECT THE SHERIFF. THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES THAT THE TOP LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IN A COUNTY IS SUBJECT TO THE VOTERS. THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

[NJblue]

A traffic enforcement area becomes a "cash cow" only when there is an abundance of motorists violating the law. The violations come before the cash.

If the IRS found a group of people in a specific area who were evading their taxes and fined them, would that be a cash cow or enforcement of tax laws.

Again, I think it's important to remember that police officers do only what they are told to do by their superiors who are told what to do by the officials that you elect. Can you imaging an office saying to the captain, "No sir I don't agree with giving tickets in The Villages, so I won't be doing that today."

YOU ELECT THE SHERIFF. THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES THAT THE TOP LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IN A COUNTY IS SUBJECT TO THE VOTERS. THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

What you say in the second part of your post does not refute the notion that fining golf cart owners may be a cash cow. In fact, it makes it more likely. Certainly the police officer has no direct motivation for increasing cash flow into the treasury, but the official who is at the top of the command chain may.

As to the notion that the violations come before the cash, the correct order of thinking should be public safety comes before violation enforcement which comes before cash. When looked at in that order, priority should be given to the violations that most endanger public safety. It would be hard to convince a reasonable thinking person that golf carts whizzing by another golf cart at a speed delta of 3 mph constitutes as much of a threat to public safety as what happens in the roundabouts on a regular basis.

[pooh]

All this discussion about "cash cows" forgets one thing. The law, in Florida, states that golf carts must only have a max speed of under 20mph. It's the law. If it's annoying, then maybe getting the law changed is in order. Honestly, as others have said, if there weren't people speeding, and most probably, lots of them, the law enforcement officials wouldn't have any opportunity to ticket. Slow down, enjoy the scenery. Drive safely, follow the rules of the road, in your cart and in your car. Just the other day, there was a golf cart, not street legal, cruising in the auto lane on Stillwater Trail. We have lots of visitors here at this time of the year, some new residents, some on LSP's, others guests and they might not be aware of some of the "rules of the road" around here. Be alert and stay safe.....and if you have your grandkids with you, please, obey speed and traffic laws, you're setting the example.

[Talk Host]

As to the notion that the violations come before the cash, the correct order of thinking should be public safety comes before violation enforcement which comes before cash. .

Who's job is it to decide if the public safety is in jeopardy, the motorist or law enforcement? The laws being made by elected officials who are entrusted with looking after public safety.

In the four years that I was a deputy sheriff, I had about 2 million law breakers tell me they were doing nothing wrong. I'm wondering if I should have said, "Oh, I'm sorry to have bothered you, please be on your way and I'll be more careful the next time."

jlk

[cybermuda]

The point that a lot of slow drivers are missing is that fast drivers clearly have above-average vehicle-handling skills. Sure, it’s foggy out there, the roads are slick, my tires are bald and I have macular degeneration, but none of this should stop me speeding as I am a superior driver.

Similarly, I am an above-average shopper, so I can shop-lift with impunity. I just explain this to the store-detective and he lets me take my loaded cart straight from the shelves to the car park, avoiding that pesky checkout line.

Where’s the harm? Okay, so shoplifting forces stores to put up prices to cover the losses, but that only affects those who pay for their groceries, not me. Likewise, when I write-off my car and have to spend six months in intensive care, that puts up motor and health insurance. But for everyone, not just me.

My souped-up Mustang can do 140 mph – it would be a crime to go down Buena Vista at anything less than 120.

So drive every day as if it is your last – with people like me on the roads, it may well be.

[NJblue]

Who's job is it to decide if the public safety is in jeopardy, the motorist or law enforcement? The laws being made by elected officials who are entrusted with looking after public safety.

Perhaps my driving situation is unique, but in the last year the number of close calls that I've had resulting from a golf cart speeding and putting me in danger is zero. I haven't even had a situation that remotely threatened my safety. On the other hand, I can't even begin to count the number of times I have had close calls in the roundabouts. So, in my opinion, if it is the police's job to put enforcement where the most risk is, they are failing in their job miserably.

Also, note that this is not a matter of disputing whether laws are broken - it is a matter of using police enforcement to maximize public safety.

[Russ_Boston]

Perhaps my driving situation is unique, but in the last year the number of close calls that I've had resulting from a golf cart speeding and putting me in danger is zero. I haven't even had a situation that remotely threatened my safety. On the other hand, I can't even begin to count the number of times I have had close calls in the roundabouts. So, in my opinion, if it is the police's job to put enforcement where the most risk is, they are failing in their job miserably.

Also, note that this is not a matter of disputing whether laws are broken - it is a matter of using police enforcement to maximize public safety.

In my short time in TV that has been my experience exactly NJ. I've only seen about 3-4 accident sites but they have all been roundabout crashes. Nothing serious fortunately.

I think reasonableness is the key.

[pooh]

A couple of things.....first we just passed by a car, truck bang-up... in a circle. It happened just before we arrived on scene, on our way to the grocery store and as we headed home, the Sumter County Sheriff was now at the scene. It appeared that there was an auto in the right lane, a truck in the left lane and the auto decided it was going to continue around the circle and got hit by the truck that was going to proceed out of the circle, correctly. The auto continuing around the circle, incorrectly was driven by an older adult, and the driver of the truck, considerably younger, was taking care of her. Neither appeared hurt, but one car door is going to need repair or replacement.

We've had golf carts riding along in the golf cart lane on O'Dell, suddenly decide they were going to make a left turn, and proceeded to drive across our lane and the lane going in the other direction, to make that left turn. Why we didn't hit them with our car was a miracle....and why I didn't have a heart attack is also one. I now have additional gray hair, which I don't need, thank you very much, but we all survived. Honestly, if I had been out of the car I would have slapped that cart driver right up side the head.

I'm paying attention to my driving and my surroundings, all others should be doing the same and not leave me responsible for the safety of all other residents and drivers here in TV...too much work for one person.

[graciegirl]

A couple of things.....first we just passed by a car, truck bang-up... in a circle. It happened just before we arrived on our way to the grocery store and as we headed home, the Sumter County Sheriff was now at the scene. It appeared that there was an auto in the right lane, a truck in the left lane and the auto decided it was going to continue around the circle and got hit by the truck that was going to proceed out of the circle, correctly. The auto continuing around the circle, incorrectly was driven by an older adult, and the driver of the truck, considerably younger, was taking care of her. Neither appeared hurt, but one car door is going to need repair or replacement.

We've had golf carts riding along in the golf cart lane on O'Dell, suddenly decide they were going to make a left turn, and proceeded to drive across our lane and the lane going in the other direction, to make that left turn. Why we didn't hit them with our car was a miracle....and why I didn't have a heart attack is also one. I now have additional gray hair, which I don't need, thank you very much, but we all survived. Honestly, if I had been out of the car I would have slapped that cart driver right up side the head.

I'm paying attention to my driving and my surroundings, all others should be doing the same and not leave me responsible for the safety of all other residents and drivers here in TV...too much work for one person.

Well said.

And another thing to worry about is all of the brand new drivers driving golf carts that have never before driven a car.

[ajakk]

There is another issue about golf carts being able to *STOP*. LSVs and NEVs are required to have hydraulic brakes or better. Most golf cart brakes do not have the ability to stop in time to avoid a problem at excessive speeds. I know my cart wants to slide rather than stop so I take this into consideration when operating my cart regardless of the speed. Most near-misses I have had on the cart paths were due to inattentive drivers, not speed. Speaking from experience, drivers cited without radar usually do something to bring attention to themselves. Personally, I see no reason for me to follow a slower golf cart if it can be passed safely and I will continue to do so

[Mikeod]

Almost got hit today at Publix at Colony. I was not in a car or cart. I was pushing my shopping cart to my car when people in their car just put it in reverse and backed out. I had to jump out of the way or they would have hit me. I think they probably looked to their left to see if anyone was driving down the lane, but never considered that someone was walking from the other direction. Got to look both ways, people! :22yikes:

[Talk Host]

On the other hand, I can't even begin to count the number of times I have had close calls in the roundabouts. So, in my opinion, if it is the police's job to put enforcement where the most risk is, they are failing in their job miserably.

What laws are being broken by the people who use the round-a-bouts improperly? (Who determines the right and wrong way to use a round-about) There is no law that says one MUST stay in the right lane in order to exit at the first or second exit. Those guidelines are simply advise, and not the law from what I understand.

Police would be hard pressed to convince a judge that somebody did something illegally in a round-a-bout when the judge probably doesn't know how to use them either.

I have a personal observation about using the villages rotaries. So many people use them wrong that when one tries to use them correctly, they are putting them selves in the line of fire. It's sometimes easier to go with the flow, improper that it might be, than to try to do it right. Doing it the right way can cause an accident.

[laryb]

Let's say that you're at a multi-lane intersection and you pull into one of the 2 left lanes that are marked with arrows for left turns. the lights go green and you decide to turn right. If that's not against the law, it should be. I believe that's what pretty much is what's happening when that person exits the inside lane and cuts in front of you to turn off the roundabout. I don't think that there is any excuse for this. If you miss your turn, go around again until you get into the outer lane.

[pooh]

Let's say that you're at a multi-lane intersection and you pull into one of the 2 left lanes that are marked with arrows for left turns. the lights go green and you decide to turn right. If that's not against the law, it should be. I believe that's what pretty much is what's happening when that person exits the inside lane and cuts in front of you to turn off the roundabout. I don't think that there is any excuse for this. If you miss your turn, go around again until you get into the outer lane.
I thought I'd posted something, but can't seem to find it now. Guess I only Previewed the post. You're right as far as I'm concerned, Lary. Sheriff Wolfe did a presentation at one of our Social Club meetings and brought along a brochure on the Round Abouts. Here in TV they are marked with arrows....right lane can proceed straight ahead or to the right, left lane can proceed straight ahead or continue around the circle. It's not that difficult. The accident I saw today appeared to be one that most likely will happen. The car was in the right lane and wanted to continue around the circle where someone was preparing to go straight ahead and exit the circle in the left lane. Cripes if I can figure it out, anyone can. One can run into a problem when they are in the left lane and must then get into the right to enter a gate. That's when we have to be alert, recite the mantra, "Please don't kill me, please don't kill me," and pray like crazy... ;)

[Mikeod]

I thought I'd posted something, but can't seem to find it now. Guess I only Previewed the post. You're right as far as I'm concerned, Lary. Sheriff Wolfe did a presentation at one of our Social Club meetings and brought along a brochure on the Round Abouts. Here in TV they are marked with arrows....right lane can proceed straight ahead or to the right, left lane can proceed straight ahead or continue around the circle. It's not that difficult. The accident I saw today appeared to be one that most likely will happen. The car was in the right lane and wanted to continue around the circle where someone was preparing to go straight ahead and exit the circle in the left lane. Cripes if I can figure it out, anyone can. One can run into a problem when they are in the left lane and must then get into the right to enter a gate. That's when we have to be alert, recite the mantra, "Please don't kill me, please don't kill me," and pray like crazy... ;)
And use your signals to indicate where you intend to go.

[downeaster]

What laws are being broken by the people who use the round-a-bouts improperly? (Who determines the right and wrong way to use a round-about) There is no law that says one MUST stay in the right lane in order to exit at the first or second exit. Those guidelines are simply advise, and not the law from what I understand.

Police would be hard pressed to convince a judge that somebody did something illegally in a round-a-bout when the judge probably doesn't know how to use them either.

I have a personal observation about using the villages rotaries. So many people use them wrong that when one tries to use them correctly, they are putting them selves in the line of fire. It's sometimes easier to go with the flow, improper that it might be, than to try to do it right. Doing it the right way can cause an accident.

Therein lies the problem.

[Russ_Boston]

There is no law that says one MUST stay in the right lane in order to exit at the first or second exit. Those guidelines are simply advise, and not the law from what I understand.


You're probably correct and just another example of hypocrisy. These roundabouts cause more accidents than speeding yet the goodie two-shoes (not referring to you explicitly TH) of the world say "lock em up if they speed"!

Screw around and not follow 'best practices' in the roundabouts? Oh, that's just advice!

For a refresher: http://www.districtgov.org/PdfView/PdfView.aspx?path=%27/PdfUpload/RoundaboutBrochure%20-%20FINAL070908.pdf%27&ql=standard

It continues to completely baffle me how anyone can't remember the roundabout 'rules'. It should become second nature to any TV resident after one week! It's not any form of rocket science!

[golfnut]

Who's job is it to decide if the public safety is in jeopardy, the motorist or law enforcement? The laws being made by elected officials who are entrusted with looking after public safety.

In the four years that I was a deputy sheriff, I had about 2 million law breakers tell me they were doing nothing wrong. I'm wondering if I should have said, "Oh, I'm sorry to have bothered you, please be on your way and I'll be more careful the next time."

jlk

TH, do the math, if you were on the force for 4 years how many law breakers could you have pulled over that said they were doing nothing wrong, I suspect the number is considerably less than 2 million....gn

[Regor]

I have a 2010 EZ Go that I bought new! I've never done anything to it to speed it up but it goes 23 (actually 22.9) mph.What are my options?

Your car probably will go 100 mph. Now what do you do to slow it down?

[Talk Host]

TH, do the math, if you were on the force for 4 years how many law breakers could you have pulled over that said they were doing nothing wrong, I suspect the number is considerably less than 2 million....gn


I think most everybody else knew that I was being facetious with that number. But thanks anyway for trying to point out a weakness in my story.

You know, It's amusing. As I was writing that, I knew you were going to jump in here and say something about it.

[Talk Host]

These roundabouts cause more accidents than speeding yet the goodie two-shoes of the world say "lock em up if they speed"!


"goodie two-shoes" I'm wondering why it's necessary to assign a demeaning name to people who support enforcement of the law.

[bimmertl]

Are they actually issuing tickets for "speeding" or are the tickets being issued for not registering an LSV since the cart exceeds the non LSV limits? I don't think there are any enforceable speed limits on the cart paths and I can't recall posts alleging tickets were issued for some sort of speed violation.

If so, there is no "leeway" involved, you get a ticket for non registered LSV which would be appropriate.

[Peggy D]

I know some cops and they usually say that they will give leeway to a highway speed of 9 mph over (in our area that would be 74 max). But they are more strict on smaller side roads.

In TV I would give golf carts leeway up to 23 mph.

I'd like them to concentrate more on reckless actions and maybe more education on round-a-bouts. What I mean is, if they see a bad roundabout move, pull the person over and explain what they did and how dangerous it is. Give them a warning (into the system so they can look it up if they stop them again). I personally think the round-a-bout moves are more dangerous than speeding down the straight away.

Couldn't agree more.

[memason]

If I had to guess, I would say the folks complaining about speeding golf carts are driving electric carts...maybe not 100%, but I'd think greater than 75%.

Am I wrong ????

[Bill-n-Brillo]

If I had to guess, I would say the folks complaining about speeding golf carts are driving electric carts...maybe not 100%, but I'd think greater than 75%.

Am I wrong ????

Uh-oh............here we go!!! :popcorn:

Bill :)

[memason]

Uh-oh............here we go!!! :popcorn:

Bill :)

Yeah....maybe I better change my avatar! :)

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Yeah....maybe I better change my avatar! :)

I laughed out loud...... :)

Maybe tell people you just sold your new place and moved out of TV or something, too! :throwtomatoes:

Bill

[iandwk]

It continues to completely baffle me how anyone can't remember the roundabout 'rules'. It should become second nature to any TV resident after one week! It's not any form of rocket science!
I saw a Smart car in the traffic circle near Savannah Center two or three weeks ago that was going the wrong way in the circle. He had stopped on the inside lane, and police were there trying to untangle the mess he made of the traffic. Smart car, but that doesn't mean the driver was smart. I still can't understand how someone can enter a traffic circle the wrong way, but there he was. I was glad to be in my golf cart that day, going 19.9 mph or thereabouts, btw.

[memason]

I saw a Smart car in the traffic circle near Savannah Center two or three weeks ago that was going the wrong way in the circle. He had stopped on the inside lane, and police were there trying to untangle the mess he made of the traffic. Smart car, but that doesn't mean the driver was smart. I still can't understand how someone can enter a traffic circle the wrong way, but there he was. I was glad to be in my golf cart that day, going 19.9 mph or thereabouts, btw.

Maybe they were from the UK .... It's easy to do, especially when you are accustomed to going around the other direction...

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Yeah....maybe I better change my avatar! :)

A speedometer for your new avatar............falling out of my chair laughing! :wave:

Bill

[Russ_Boston]

"goodie two-shoes" I'm wondering why it's necessary to assign a demeaning name to people who support enforcement of the law.

I don't think that's demeaning at all. Some people go by the letter of the law and I go by what makes common sense. I'm not a goodie two-shoes, I go by intent. If you think situations like Waldo speed traps are law enforcement then you can call yourself whatever you like. I think that's outright OVER enforcement. Stopping someone for going 40 in 35 on a straight away while driving safely with no one else around while people make stupid moves in round-abouts with impunity makes absolutely no sense. But some people still say "then they shouldn't speed".

But I apologize to anyone who has two good shoes. Let's change that to 'letter of the law' people.

[NJblue]

I wonder if the letter-of-the-law people dutifully walk to the crosswalk every time they are in one of the town squares if they want to quickly go into a shop across the street. After all, J-walking is also against the law. Perhaps we should have several deputies patrolling the squares and cracking down on the J-walking miscreants. Since we seem to have sufficient police to crack down on golf carts going a couple of miles over the limit, we probably also have enough to keep our streets safe from J-walkers. Book'em Dano!

[graciegirl]

I don't know personally of anyone who received a ticket for fast cart driving.

The first of January they were out in force, parked everywhere, (the fuzz) maybe because of the snowbirds returning?

I think they are watching the real bad guys now.

Or...maybe I just haven't seen them.

Has anyone seen any over-policing LATELY?

AND the link to the correct way to drive a roundabout should be printed and given to anyone new, as a kindness. Thank you for it, Russ.

Here it is again.

http://www.districtgov.org/PdfView/P...27&ql=standard

[Talk Host]

I wonder if the letter-of-the-law people dutifully walk to the crosswalk every time they are in one of the town squares if they want to quickly go into a shop across the street. After all, J-walking is also against the law. Perhaps we should have several deputies patrolling the squares and cracking down on the J-walking miscreants. Since we seem to have sufficient police to crack down on golf carts going a couple of miles over the limit, we probably also have enough to keep our streets safe from J-walkers. Book'em Dano!

Demonizing people who believe that citizens should obey the laws doesn't further your argument. Traffic laws are established for the safety of the public. If it was left up to the public to decide what the limits are, there would be no limits.

[cybermuda]

People who complain about speeding tickets are often those who have been caught speeding.

Rather than accept personal responsibility, they try to lay the blame at everyone else's door.

So to all policemen out there - keep up the good work

and to all law-abiding citizens - you should be proud of yourselves.

[F16 1UB]

The saying "If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk" holds credence. Saw a gentleman yesterday morning around 8:40 driving on the sidewalk :oops: near the road @ Colony Rec Center. He had a MI plate.

Go Bucks

[Bill-n-Brillo]

...........AND the link to the correct way to drive a roundabout should be printed and given to anyone new, as a kindness. Thank you for it, Russ.

Here it is again.

http://www.districtgov.org/PdfView/P...27&ql=standard

gg - That link was incomplete. Try this one:

http://www.districtgov.org/PdfView/PdfView.aspx?path=%27/PdfUpload/RoundaboutBrochure%20-%20FINAL070908.pdf%27&ql=standard

Bill :)

[Larry Wilson]

Didn't take the time to read everbody's post but "Thank God" for police. They try to keep us safe. Where would we be without police and laws??:shrug:

[EdV]

.....It continues to completely baffle me how anyone can't remember the roundabout 'rules'. It should become second nature to any TV resident after one week! It's not any form of rocket science!

The one essential rule that makes a roundabout work is to not enter the roundabout until both lanes are clear. If everyone followed that rule, you would never have a situation where a vehicle in the left lane crosses the path of one in the right lane.

The problem is that this rule is counterintuitive to what people are used to. When you merge onto a multilane highway and have a yield sign, do you wait for all lanes to be clear or just the right lane. For most people it would be the latter I’ll bet.

The only real solution is to rebuild the roundabouts to a single lane with a right lane for right turns only. I know this can be done in a way that would not impede tractor trailers either. Unfortunately, since these are county roads, that probably won’t happen.

[NJblue]

Demonizing people who believe that citizens should obey the laws doesn't further your argument. Traffic laws are established for the safety of the public. If it was left up to the public to decide what the limits are, there would be no limits.

I didn't realize that pointing out hypocrisy was a form of demonization, but I guess it's consistent with the general theme of this thread: people have different views of things such as what constitutes dangerous behavior that requires enforcement or what is "demonization" versus pointing out an inconsistency.

Aren't J-walking laws established for the safety of the general public? Why are you selectively highlighting the issue of cracking down on one issue of public safety and not another?

[Talk Host]

Aren't J-walking laws established for the safety of the general public? Why are you selectively highlighting the issue of cracking down on one issue of public safety and not another?

There is no attempt at being selective. I think maybe you confused your thinking with mine. If they are guilty of Jay Walking then they should be charged accordingly.

[NJblue]

There is no attempt at being selective. I think maybe you confused your thinking with mine. If they are guilty of Jay Walking then they should be charged accordingly.

I guess this is the crux of our differing opinions: I believe that laws are essential for the maximization of public safety. As such and since enforcement of all laws equally in all situations would inevitably lead to some of the more serious situations with less enforcement while the police are spending time on the more benign situations.

I would hope that the police would use judgement as opposed to responding like robots - and in the case of J-walking they do, since if they really were cracking down on this illegal activity with equal force, they would have to have a trailer to hold the summons books for all the J-walking that regularly occurs at the town squares. But, since this activity really doesn't pose as great a threat to public safety, the police look the other way ... thankfully.

My view that is shared by others here is that stopping golf carts going a few miles over their designated maximum speed is akin to having a police presence to stop J-walking in the squares - there are far more serious threats to our public safety that this level of enforcement could be better used.

Others hold the opposite view, saying a law is a law and if it is violated it should be punished. My question to them is: would you really want the police writing tickets to people coming out of Ambrosia with their ice cream cones and walking across the street to the square without going up to the crosswalk?

[cybermuda]

To be fair, NJblue, the whole jay-walking argument has been introduced into this thread as a straw man, to be knocked down in the hope of trying to prove that ticketing speeders is a waste of police time.

Most people who have argued here that speeding should be discouraged have expressed no opinion on jay-walking, so it is incorrect to make the assumption that they are also in favor of police spending time ticketing jay-walkers.

I personally am in favor of discouraging speeding, but do not care whether or not people jay-walk. Why? Because if I get hit by a jay-walker coming out of Ambrosia I may get some ice cream on me – annoying but hardly serious. If I get hit by a speeding vehicle…

The initial question in this thread basically asked at what level above the speed limit do you think action should be taken by the police.

Remember that the energy of a collision is a product of the square of the speed. So a vehicle travelling at 40 mph would have an impact energy of 1,600 units; almost double the 900 units of a vehicle travelling at 30 mph. That could be the difference between a broken leg and being killed.

And, frankly, I’d rather have ice cream on me.

[Talk Host]

To be fair, NJblue, the whole jay-walking argument has been introduced into this thread as a straw man, to be knocked down in the hope of trying to prove that ticketing speeders is a waste of police time.

Most people who have argued here that speeding should be discouraged have expressed no opinion on jay-walking, so it is incorrect to make the assumption that they are also in favor of police spending time ticketing jay-walkers.

I personally am in favor of discouraging speeding, but do not care whether or not people jay-walk. Why? Because if I get hit by a jay-walker coming out of Ambrosia I may get some ice cream on me – annoying but hardly serious. If I get hit by a speeding vehicle…

The initial question in this thread basically asked at what level above the speed limit do you think action should be taken by the police.

Remember that the energy of a collision is a product of the square of the speed. So a vehicle travelling at 40 mph would have an impact energy of 1,600 units; almost double the 900 units of a vehicle travelling at 30 mph. That could be the difference between a broken leg and being killed.

And, frankly, I’d rather have ice cream on me.


What a great, well thought out, well phrased post. I wish I could think, talk and write that clearly and succinctly.