"How Tariffs Work and Why They're Shaking the Market" & "Zero Stocks"

[Boomer]

No matter how we are perceiving our current economic times, we might be starting to feel like we are on information-overload.

But here's more: I listen to podcasts, while I am doing other things, like chores, around the house. In the past few days, I ran across two financial interviews that I found particularly interesting. Here we go.....

April 4: On WealthTrack, Consuelo Mack interviewed Robert Kessler who has been in the world of finance for a long time. The title of this week's interview is "Zero Stocks."

While all around us, we are hearing things like, "Stay the course," and "The market goes up and the market goes down. This is normal," it is interesting to hear a different point of view on that. Kessler is all out. He refers to Warren Buffett now sitting on $325 Billion in sideline cash, waiting to buy value.

Consuelo brings up the standard routine about market timing, but Kessler does not really agree. At the end of the interview, my takeaway is that Kessler is retirement age and he simply does not think we retirees have time to wait for all this dust to settle.......

If you want to hear everything Kessler has to say, go to wealthtrack.com and find "Zero Stocks" -- the recent interview.

April 10: The other podcast I heard this week was on Taylor Schulte's Stay Wealthy Retirement Show. That was the one titled "How Tariffs Actually Work." Schulte interviewed yet another expert, Cullen Roche. Unlike some other financial podcasts, this one is well done. (Too many financial podcasters or television people can get downright annoying because they try to do comedy routines or are way too into banter or talk over top of the person they are talking to.)

This interview though was professionally done and informative and did not try to be esoteric. If that sounds good to you, just give the title a google and you will find it.

(This "living in interesting times" sure is getting old -- but so are we. :ohdear:)

Boomer

[golfing eagles]

No matter how we are perceiving our current economic times, we might be starting to feel like we are on information-overload.

But here's more: I listen to podcasts, while I am doing other things, like chores, around the house. In the past few days, I ran across two financial interviews that I found particularly interesting. Here we go.....

April 4: On WealthTrack, Consuelo Mack interviewed Robert Kessler who has been in the world of finance for a long time. The title of this week's interview is "Zero Stocks."

While all around us, we are hearing things like, "Stay the course," and "The market goes up and the market goes down. This is normal," it is interesting to hear a different point of view on that. Kessler is all out. He refers to Warren Buffett now sitting on $325 Billion in sideline cash, waiting to buy value.

Consuelo brings up the standard routine about market timing, but Kessler does not really agree. At the end of the interview, my takeaway is that Kessler is retirement age and he simply does not think we retirees have time to wait for all this dust to settle.......

If you want to hear everything Kessler has to say, go to wealthtrack.com and find "Zero Stocks" -- the recent interview.

April 10: The other podcast I heard this week was on Taylor Schulte's Stay Wealthy Retirement Show. That was the one titled "How Tariffs Actually Work." Schulte interviewed yet another expert, Cullen Roche. Unlike some other financial podcasts, this one is well done. (Too many financial podcasters or television people can get downright annoying because they try to do comedy routines or are way too into banter or talk over top of the person they are talking to.)

This interview though was professionally done and informative and did not try to be esoteric. If that sounds good to you, just give the title a google and you will find it.

(This "living in interesting times" sure is getting old -- but so are we. :ohdear:)

Boomer

That's all well and fine, but my tendency is to listen to my senior VP of wealth management at Merrill Lynch and not the "talking heads" on TV and the internet

[Normal]

The intent of all these tariffs were to give governments advantages in trade. The Chinese crack of televisions, phones and chips seemed to be painless at first, but now we all will have to go through the withdrawals caused by those worms and parasites that really feasted on all of us for years. Thankfully we have the guts to know we need to go through withdrawal pains from the crack of other countries and get it done before going too far where it wouldn’t be survivable. A no tariff solution is the only solution.

If you want investment advice, buy American made stocks, nothing else is going to be happening’

PS. Not to freak anyone out, but your Alexa, televisions and iPhones were all made in China. Hmm….I know they all listen…I wonder what information they hear, store etc all while made in China? Is it possible someone inserted a little tweak, collecting data and saving it for future use? Nah

[Pballer]

Reciprocal tariffs have just been removed from computers, smartphones and other electronic devices such as flat panel TVs. I guess big business lobbying and pay to play has been highly successful.

[manaboutown]

I handle my own investment management. No complaints. Life is good.

Wealthtrack is a good show which I DVR but have not viewed for a while. At least some of the interviewees such as Charles Royce and Bill Miller are with outfits that sponsor the show. If I recall correctly some time ago Bill got into bitcoin. Wonder how that worked out? The interviews with Charles Ellis and Christine Benz were outstanding.

BITCOIN BECAME 50% OF BILL MILLER’S NET WORTH LARGELY THROUGH GAINS FROM EARLY PURCHASES. NOW WHAT? – WealthTrack (https://wealthtrack.com/bitcoin-became-50-of-bill-millers-net-worth-largely-through-gains-from-early-purchases-now-what/)

Anybody recall Louis Rukeyser and "Wall Street Week" and the not-so-good predictions of his Elves?

Wall Street Week - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Week)

[HappyTraveler]

PS. Not to freak anyone out, but your Alexa, televisions and iPhones were all made in China. Hmm….I know they all listen…I wonder what information they hear, store etc all while made in China? Is it possible someone inserted a little tweak, collecting data and saving it for future use? Nah
Of course, they audio record what is happening in your home. And, no, not just what questions have been asked of it. They're on all the time. Those crazy Alexa and Siri, etc. machines were likely developed for that purpose.

Even worse, most (or all) Smart TVs have cameras and are video recording the room they are in. They probably audio record too - not sure on that. My understanding is that you can disable the camera but, it has to be done at initial set-up when you buy it. If anyone knows more about that, please post details.

[jimjamuser]

The intent of all these tariffs were to give governments advantages in trade. The Chinese crack of televisions, phones and chips seemed to be painless at first, but now we all will have to go through the withdrawals caused by those worms and parasites that really feasted on all of us for years. Thankfully we have the guts to know we need to go through withdrawal pains from the crack of other countries and get it done before going too far where it wouldn’t be survivable. A no tariff solution is the only solution.

If you want investment advice, buy American made stocks, nothing else is going to be happening’

PS. Not to freak anyone out, but your Alexa, televisions and iPhones were all made in China. Hmm….I know they all listen…I wonder what information they hear, store etc all while made in China? Is it possible someone inserted a little tweak, collecting data and saving it for future use? Nah
Yes, that is a bad situation when the US's 3rd largest trading partner - China - is also your 1st or 2nd military foe.

[Whatnext]

The intent of all these tariffs were to give governments advantages in trade. The Chinese crack of televisions, phones and chips seemed to be painless at first, but now we all will have to go through the withdrawals caused by those worms and parasites that really feasted on all of us for years. Thankfully we have the guts to know we need to go through withdrawal pains from the crack of other countries and get it done before going too far where it wouldn’t be survivable. A no tariff solution is the only solution.

If you want investment advice, buy American made stocks, nothing else is going to be happening’

PS. Not to freak anyone out, but your Alexa, televisions and iPhones were all made in China. Hmm….I know they all listen…I wonder what information they hear, store etc all while made in China? Is it possible someone inserted a little tweak, collecting data and saving it for future use? Nah

No worms or parasites feasted on the US.
US corporations gave away its technology and manufacturing to other countries in pursuit of cheaper costs, high returns, and great dividends for stock holders, and the country feasted on all the cheap goods.
US lost the workforce to manufacture those goods, and even if companies bring home their industries, it will take billions of $$$ and years to start up and produce.
All the now perceived problems were self induced by Corporate America.
At least many technology items are now tariff free, as the price hit was going to cost votes, and sales.
Someone seems to be blinking quite rapidly!

[Normal]

No worms or parasites feasted on the US.
US corporations gave away its technology and manufacturing to other countries in pursuit of cheaper costs, high returns, and great dividends for stock holders, and the country feasted on all the cheap goods.
US lost the workforce to manufacture those goods, and even if companies bring home their industries, it will take billions of $$$ and years to start up and produce.
All the now perceived problems were self induced by Corporate America.
At least many technology items are now tariff free, as the price hit was going to cost votes, and sales.
Someone seems to be blinking quite rapidly!

I believe you are right about the cause, but the problems still exists. The cheap labor goods are crack, and we are going to go through painful withdrawals just like any addict would. It has to be done though, our deficit spending and debt need to be turned around now, otherwise the future is much shorter and we all die like the overdose victim.

[manaboutown]

OK, I just watched Consuelo Mack's interview with Robert Kessler. I agree with his viewpoint while bearing in mind he is a bond guy. Although he did not mention The Shiller Index he did refer to P/E ratios being very, very high. The Shiller Index closed Friday at 33.15, still about double its median and mean. He also mentioned that when stocks dive it usually is about 50%. It could be even more under present valuations IMHO. His offhand remarks about financials advisors caused me to chuckle as they were right on the mark.

Looks like he is about my age and enormously wealthy. Repo Man Robert Kessler used the repo market to help his clients earn 24% returns last year on Treasury bonds. What does he know that others don't? - September 15, 2003 (https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/09/15/349154/)

[rustyp]

newsflash - the US induced tariffs on chinese smart phones, computers, and other electronic devices have been lifted

[Boomer]

OK, I just watched Consuelo Mack's interview with Robert Kessler. I agree with his viewpoint while bearing in mind he is a bond guy. Although he did not mention The Shiller Index he did refer to P/E ratios being very, very high. The Shiller Index closed Friday at 33.15, still about double its median and mean. He also mentioned that when stocks dive it usually is about 50%. It could be even more under present valuations IMHO. His offhand remarks about financials advisors caused me to chuckle as they were right on the mark.

Looks like he is about my age and enormously wealthy. Repo Man Robert Kessler used the repo market to help his clients earn 24% returns last year on Treasury bonds. What does he know that others don't? - September 15, 2003 (https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/09/15/349154/)


Hey, manaboutown, thanks for watching that interview, for the conversation at-hand. I also got a laugh out of Kessler's remark about financial advisors.

Ironically, the first response to my original post was in favor of taking advice from only those truly in-the-know -- ya know, like a VP of ML??? HAH! BOA acquired ML, now known as just plain Merrill, because the giant bank wanted an advisory. BOA gets a piece of the Merrill action. BOA's first loyalty is to the stockholders and the Big Wheels.

When thinking about sources of information, it is always a good idea to read between the lines, look for the agenda. Those Merrill advisors are getting paid whether you do or not -- just not getting paid quite as much, but the money still rolls in from AUM, etc. And soooo, the stockholders still get paid, too. But if others feel like a huge bank is looking out for them, well, alrighty then. I am just not a fan of huge banks and their underling advisors.

Btw, I was trying to figure out how old Kessler is, but I was in a hurry this morning when I threw this conversation onto TOTV and did not have time to track down his age. His main point was about his age and how long it will take for these fevered promises to ever come true. We know somebody like Kessler is not going to go broke, but I thought his reasoning for abandoning the market was interesting.....

But, for some people, there will always be the thrill of the chase and/or there can never be enough money. A friend of mine grew up in her father's funeral business. She said her dad used to say, "There are no saddlebags on coffins." Kessler was basically saying to take the profit and run, once you reach an age where if things go really bad, you might not ever recover.

I liked the second interview for reasons I included in my original post.

Boomer

[bopat]

A tariff is a tax. That's it.

Buy low, sell high.

[manaboutown]

Kessler was 61 at the time according the 2003 article and worth hundreds of millions so I am guessing he is my age, 83, give or take. He looks ten years younger to me. He got into the bond business in 1966 or 1967 and commented during the interview on the Dow being 1,000 in I think 1969 and then again in I think 1981. I had a boss during the 1970s who was a stock market genius and I am not kidding. He kept encouraging me to get into the market which was very cheap during those years but I was fixated on investing in commercial real estate which worked out well. Nevertheless I put a few bucks in a couple of his recommendations and doubled that money within a very short time. He referred me to a discount broker, Olde Discount, too. He was about ten years older than me and starting with nothing he was already worth several million dollars at that time. He had gone to Stanford on a 100% scholarship, majored in chemistry.

[golfing eagles]

Hey, manaboutown, thanks for watching that interview, for the conversation at-hand. I also got a laugh out of Kessler's remark about financial advisors.

Ironically, the first response to my original post was in favor of taking advice from only those truly in-the-know -- ya know, like a VP of ML??? HAH! BOA acquired ML, now known as just plain Merrill, because the giant bank wanted an advisory. BOA gets a piece of the Merrill action. BOA's first loyalty is to the stockholders and the Big Wheels.

When thinking about sources of information, it is always a good idea to read between the lines, look for the agenda. Those Merrill advisors are getting paid whether you do or not -- just not getting paid quite as much, but the money still rolls in from AUM, etc. And soooo, the stockholders still get paid, too. But if others feel like a huge bank is looking out for them, well, alrighty then. I am just not a fan of huge banks and their underling advisors.

Btw, I was trying to figure out how old Kessler is, but I was in a hurry this morning when I threw this conversation onto TOTV and did not have time to track down his age. His main point was about his age and how long it will take for these fevered promises to ever come true. We know somebody like Kessler is not going to go broke, but I thought his reasoning for abandoning the market was interesting.....

But, for some people, there will always be the thrill of the chase and/or there can never be enough money. A friend of mine grew up in her father's funeral business. She said her dad used to say, "There are no saddlebags on coffins." Kessler was basically saying to take the profit and run, once you reach an age where if things go really bad, you might not ever recover.

I liked the second interview for reasons I included in my original post.

Boomer

EXCEPT——When that advisor is also a long time personal friend and pretty much does the same with his own money as he does with mine

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Investing boils down to:

There are many ways to invest money, each has its advantages/disadvantages
The primary point is risk, which is about how easy it is to lose money
Risk is unique to each individual, and to each investment approach it changes over time and is difficult to quantity
Investing is counter intuitive:
selling high involves taxes unless in an IRA, and the relinquishment of the hope of more gains after gains (greed)
buying low involves waiting for sales prices, when everyone else is losing their money and minds
buying low requires overcoming hard wired human fear of more losses

The future is always uncertain, sometimes more uncertain than at other times.
There is always, always event risk, because humans are unpredictable and emotional.
The event may be one of company, industry, systemic banking, technological, political, geopolitical or natural
but these can seldom be predicted or prepared for in time, and will happen to everyone at some point in time given a long enough time.
And these event risks can happen to you as well, they are not limited to the market.

So you pay your entrance fee and take your chances, and if it doesn't work out, cut your losses quickly, if there is a fire, you want to panic early and be out first to avoid being trampled.

Simple concepts, most difficult game to play and maybe win ever invented.

[phylt]

That's all well and fine, but my tendency is to listen to my senior VP of wealth management at Merrill Lynch and not the "talking heads" on TV and the internet

Best advice I've seen on TOTV in a long time, despite all the "Experts" here....

[Velvet]

Of course, they audio record what is happening in your home. And, no, not just what questions have been asked of it. They're on all the time. Those crazy Alexa and Siri, etc. machines were likely developed for that purpose.

Even worse, most (or all) Smart TVs have cameras and are video recording the room they are in. They probably audio record too - not sure on that. My understanding is that you can disable the camera but, it has to be done at initial set-up when you buy it. If anyone knows more about that, please post details.

Most people have a hard time listening even during a conversation. The “kitchen language” which takes place in most homes must be absolutely boring to an outsider.

[MorTech]

The sole purpose of the USA tariff threat is to raise the USA tariff from a nominal 3% to 10% and force every other country to lower their tariffs to 20% maximum without penalties. They also want to stop currency manipulation but that will be difficult. From the tariff revenue (10% sales tax on USA citizens when purchasing foreign stuff) and reduced fraud/waste/government spending, they will be able to have a 15% flat income tax with a large standard deduction and get rid of tax "write-offs" that encourage political corruption.

This offshoring was forced deliberately starting 40 years (before NAFTA) to make the rest of the world wealthier and more peaceful...It worked great. Now is the time to stop the forced offshoring which is what is going on now with the tariff threats.

[rsmurano]

I listen to the vp at Merrill for my advice! Good luck with that. So I’m guessing he has you sitting pretty with no moves while your portfolio is down 20+%, and it’s still going down. But while you are losing wealth, the vp is still making his money, right?

Unless your vp told you to sell when your holdings were high, then he is no better than a kid on the street making a statement. Does your vp have the same credentials as Buffet? If he does, you would have a lot of cash on hand to make new stock purchases in the near future. I even know this, I sold everything last December and waiting to get back in.

If the vp told you to stay the course, in a couple of years you will be back to what you had at the start of 2025 unless you have to sell shares to live on during this downturn, then it will take longer to recover.

Market risk? IMO, you are at risk if you don’t know what you are doing financially and depend on a broker and assume you will make money in the long run. I have helped so many friends that were paying somebody to handle their investments that were not making them money, or very little money.

I sell high all the time, I can’t remember ever having a loss, maybe back in 2000, but until recently I never sold a share in a downturn until the end of 2021 and last December. Take the emotions out of selling, put a trailing stop loss on your stocks. I would happily pay a couple % in taxes if I’m making hundreds of thousands in gains, better than getting a $3000 write off every year on your taxes for losing money when selling.

Another risk is being too cautious in your investments that you never make money or very little after inflation. For example, I will never buy bonds, never have, you can’t make any money on them unless they are high risk. Annuities will never make you money in the long run and with their high fees, you’ve already lost money. There are hundreds of index funds that have very low risk, high returns, with decent dividends all with around .02-.05% fees. There were many stocks in 2023 and in 2024 that had multiple 100’s % gains and history will repeat itself in the coming months.

[Aviator1211]

No worms or parasites feasted on the US.
US corporations gave away its technology and manufacturing to other countries in pursuit of cheaper costs, high returns, and great dividends for stock holders, and the country feasted on all the cheap goods.
US lost the workforce to manufacture those goods, and even if companies bring home their industries, it will take billions of $$$ and years to start up and produce.
All the now perceived problems were self induced by Corporate America.
At least many technology items are now tariff free, as the price hit was going to cost votes, and sales.
Someone seems to be blinking quite rapidly!

If you have a 401k or a pension, you are the evil corporation. Regulating foreign trade is a government responsibility. As usual, the mess we are currently trying to fix is a result of 50 years of terrible government trade and fiscal policy. The liberal accedemics who kept telling us trade deficits were a good thing are equally at fault. The question is, does America have the stomach to complete the reforms necessary to correct these 50 years of terrible government policy? With half the population in denial or brainwashed by propoganda, I doubt it.

[rsmurano]

Corporations are not evil! People aren’t evil if they have 401ks or pensions. If it wasn’t for corporations, we would not have the technology we have today. We all would be using pen and paper, mailing Kodak pics to relatives, and have horses and buggies.
People with pensions and especially 401ks, these people have the brains to invest and the brains to choose jobs that provide benefits, instead of someone that has to accept any job at a low wage with no benefits because they didn’t learn anything in school.

As for tariffs, it’s about time somebody did something about it. Just like countries not paying their fair share in nato. We are tired of supporting every other country but ours.

[opinionist]

Tariffs have worked to bring trillions of dollars in investment for reindustrialization.
The rapid shifts in tariff levels represent deals being made.
Anyone looking for a safe haven should buy physical gold/silver.
Everything else has counterparty risk.

[Rsb23]

If you have a 401k or a pension, you are the evil corporation. Regulating foreign trade is a government responsibility. As usual, the mess we are currently trying to fix is a result of 50 years of terrible government trade and fiscal policy. The liberal accedemics who kept telling us trade deficits were a good thing are equally at fault. The question is, does America have the stomach to complete the reforms necessary to correct these 50 years of terrible government policy? With half the population in denial or brainwashed by propoganda, I doubt it.


The American consumer put us in our current position by picking the cheapest price item over American made items. Levi Jean is a prime example… in the 80s the price of Levi’s was about 40 a pair, while imports were about 10. Consumer picked the cheapest price..
The US can’t compete with countries that pay their workers at 2 or 3 dollars an hour…. Americans will not work for these wages. These businesses are not coming back OR if they do the American consumer will have to pay much, much higher prices that more Americans can’t afford….
This it a World economic and to think we can just change things that is plan Stupid…. It will not happen… without pain for us and our families for many, many years….

We need to accept the World economy as it is…. The U S was and still is the strongest nation why rock the boat now…

[phylt]

If you have a 401k or a pension, you are the evil corporation. Regulating foreign trade is a government responsibility. As usual, the mess we are currently trying to fix is a result of 50 years of terrible government trade and fiscal policy. The liberal accedemics who kept telling us trade deficits were a good thing are equally at fault. The question is, does America have the stomach to complete the reforms necessary to correct these 50 years of terrible government policy? With half the population in denial or brainwashed by propoganda, I doubt it.

++++ Just love those folks striking out at the serious work being done to rid out federal waste, fraud, abuse of OUR TAX DOLLARS. Yes - brainwashed, and paid to protest by the folks who despise our country. And the idiotic striking out at a major company and its customers.
Same with the serious work being done to FINALLY correct the USA trade policies worldwide.

This takes GUTS and strength and willingness to take short term heat. 95% of the countries are standing in line to make DEALS, all for the betterment of the USA and a good deal for both. China will be standing alone soon, odd man out. Just where we want them. I have tremendous faith that leveling the Trade playing field and hitting China economically.

As you said, the 'denial or brainwashed' folks will not/cannot see the facts. EVERYTHING being done, for the betterment of the USA and 95% world, is constantly berated.

[Joe C.]

You can disable the camera on the smart TV anytime you want by a small bit of electrician's tape.

[Ptmcbriz]

American consumers have enjoyed the cheap prices of manufactured consumer goods for decades. They aren’t going to buy a $45 doll when they are use to buying the same doll from China for $19. There is no incentive for corporate America to move their plants back to the US. Americans won’t buy the $45 doll if they return, because we can’t compete in cheap raw materials and labor. Never will. US companies based in China, Thailand and elsewhere will continue to sell their $19 dolls through out the world where there are no tariffs. The US consumer will do without or pay the higher tariff price…or wait for a different President to be elected once consumers want prices to go down again and tariffs eliminated.

[Aces4]

The American consumer put us in our current position by picking the cheapest price item over American made items. Levi Jean is a prime example… in the 80s the price of Levi’s was about 40 a pair, while imports were about 10. Consumer picked the cheapest price..
The US can’t compete with countries that pay their workers at 2 or 3 dollars an hour…. Americans will not work for these wages. These businesses are not coming back OR if they do the American consumer will have to pay much, much higher prices that more Americans can’t afford….
This it a World economic and to think we can just change things that is plan Stupid…. It will not happen… without pain for us and our families for many, many years….

We need to accept the World economy as it is…. The U S was and still is the strongest nation why rock the boat now…

With a slight of hand, businesses figured out how to put a large portion of the debit side of their ledgers on the backs of US citizens and then convinced us we were getting a great deal with cheaper foreign products. Few noticed how the jobless affected our budgets at home with the jobs shipped overseas. As we pay out of our pockets for all the programs that support the loss of employment, subsidized housing/rent, Medicaid, food stamps, health insurance and all the social programs for the jobless not to mention the lack of dignity and loss of self esteem for those affected. We also lost the very important ability to care for ourselves in the event of world disagreements or worse. Yeah, we sure came out ahead, ahem.:loco:

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Yes, large cracks are starting to appear in this stupid, ill-thought-out policy.
Computers and smartphones are just the beginning.


remember when in school you were a good student, and then a subject came up which you didn't quite understand as quickly as others? homework was good, but tests didn't always get the same results? You felt confident and then the results didn't happen as expected?

Starting to happen alot these days . .

In this case in poker it's called a bluff, a large bet, and the opponent doesn't get intimidated, and you start to second guess the situation. . and then realize you miscalculated, and you have to fold. .

Folding happened with Russia, the outcome didn't match the expected test results
Folding in tariffs would appear more slowly. . and with lots more spin. .

ITs called folding after a bluff. . . because a view of the world isn't a winning view of how the world works for your position. . .

[SoCalGal]

Reciprocal tariffs have just been removed from computers, smartphones and other electronic devices such as flat panel TVs. I guess big business lobbying and pay to play has been highly successful.

When you post a claim like this, including a link to a story about this would be helpful.

[Pballer]

When you post a claim like this, including a link to a story about this would be helpful.

reuters.com (https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-excludes-smartphones-computers-reciprocal-tariffs-2025-04-12/)

Get ready for massive corruption as companies grovel for tariff exemptions.

[jimjamuser]

I believe you are right about the cause, but the problems still exists. The cheap labor goods are crack, and we are going to go through painful withdrawals just like any addict would. It has to be done though, our deficit spending and debt need to be turned around now, otherwise the future is much shorter and we all die like the overdose victim.
yes, debt needs to be turned around, but it will be made worse by the upcoming new tax percentages. The upper 1% will pay LESS and the middle and lower classes will pay MORE. It will also be easier for them to cheat now that there are fewer IRS agents. So. less money coming into the Government.

[jimjamuser]

The sole purpose of the USA tariff threat is to raise the USA tariff from a nominal 3% to 10% and force every other country to lower their tariffs to 20% maximum without penalties. They also want to stop currency manipulation but that will be difficult. From the tariff revenue (10% sales tax on USA citizens when purchasing foreign stuff) and reduced fraud/waste/government spending, they will be able to have a 15% flat income tax with a large standard deduction and get rid of tax "write-offs" that encourage political corruption.

This offshoring was forced deliberately starting 40 years (before NAFTA) to make the rest of the world wealthier and more peaceful...It worked great. Now is the time to stop the forced offshoring which is what is going on now with the tariff threats.
The way I see it - offshoring was done to get rid of US unions. This was accomplished. The unions that are left are small and weak. Mission accomplished - Make America Weak, Poor, and Without Unions. Tariff threats are causing the WORLD to view the US as UNSTABLE. Tariff threats are causing counties like Japan to take their MONEY out of US bonds and look to other counties as more RELIABLE TRADING partners. ........A Flat Income tax like flat sales taxes hurt the lowest end of the financial spectrum the MOST, as will tariffs which drive up prices for the consumer.

[jimjamuser]

I listen to the vp at Merrill for my advice! Good luck with that. So I’m guessing he has you sitting pretty with no moves while your portfolio is down 20+%, and it’s still going down. But while you are losing wealth, the vp is still making his money, right?

Unless your vp told you to sell when your holdings were high, then he is no better than a kid on the street making a statement. Does your vp have the same credentials as Buffet? If he does, you would have a lot of cash on hand to make new stock purchases in the near future. I even know this, I sold everything last December and waiting to get back in.

If the vp told you to stay the course, in a couple of years you will be back to what you had at the start of 2025 unless you have to sell shares to live on during this downturn, then it will take longer to recover.

Market risk? IMO, you are at risk if you don’t know what you are doing financially and depend on a broker and assume you will make money in the long run. I have helped so many friends that were paying somebody to handle their investments that were not making them money, or very little money.

I sell high all the time, I can’t remember ever having a loss, maybe back in 2000, but until recently I never sold a share in a downturn until the end of 2021 and last December. Take the emotions out of selling, put a trailing stop loss on your stocks. I would happily pay a couple % in taxes if I’m making hundreds of thousands in gains, better than getting a $3000 write off every year on your taxes for losing money when selling.

Another risk is being too cautious in your investments that you never make money or very little after inflation. For example, I will never buy bonds, never have, you can’t make any money on them unless they are high risk. Annuities will never make you money in the long run and with their high fees, you’ve already lost money. There are hundreds of index funds that have very low risk, high returns, with decent dividends all with around .02-.05% fees. There were many stocks in 2023 and in 2024 that had multiple 100’s % gains and history will repeat itself in the coming months.
There is some GREAT advice in this post. I agree.....I NEVER buy bonds.

[jimjamuser]

Corporations are not evil! People aren’t evil if they have 401ks or pensions. If it wasn’t for corporations, we would not have the technology we have today. We all would be using pen and paper, mailing Kodak pics to relatives, and have horses and buggies.
People with pensions and especially 401ks, these people have the brains to invest and the brains to choose jobs that provide benefits, instead of someone that has to accept any job at a low wage with no benefits because they didn’t learn anything in school.

As for tariffs, it’s about time somebody did something about it. Just like countries not paying their fair share in nato. We are tired of supporting every other country but ours.
Right now, I think that the US is effectively out of NATO because right now I doubt that we would HONOR OUR commitment to fight for a NATO country that got attacked. And Europe and the UK now know that THEY have to provide their OWN security. Also, those counties and Australia and Japan will be VERY unwilling to share sensitive spy information with the US. We are becoming the THREAT to the rest of the world.

[fdpaq0580]

The way I see it - offshoring was done to get rid of US unions. This was accomplished. The unions that are left are small and weak. Mission accomplished - Make America Weak, Poor, and Without Unions. Tariff threats are causing the WORLD to view the US as UNSTABLE. Tariff threats are causing counties like Japan to take their MONEY out of US bonds and look to other counties as more RELIABLE TRADING partners. ........A Flat Income tax like flat sales taxes hurt the lowest end of the financial spectrum the MOST, as will tariffs which drive up prices for the consumer.

The way you "see if" is correct.
Tariffs will make America grovel again as the world trading lines are cut with both friends and enemies.
Forget "recession". Depression? Time will tell.
Have a nice day! 🙂

[jimjamuser]

The American consumer put us in American made items. Levi Jean is a prime example… in the 80s the price of Levi’s was about 40 a pair, while imports our current position by picking the cheapest price item over were about 10. Consumer picked the cheapest price..
The US can’t compete with countries that pay their workers at 2 or 3 dollars an hour…. Americans will not work for these wages. These businesses are not coming back OR if they do the American consumer will have to pay much, much higher prices that more Americans can’t afford….
This it a World economic and to think we can just change things that is plan Stupid…. It will not happen… without pain for us and our families for many, many years….

We need to accept the World economy as it is…. The U S was and still is the strongest nation why rock the boat now…
The American consumer was tricked by large American companies that moved off shore to avoid paying Americans and to avoid UNIONS that kept wages high. We made China STRONG and now a MONSTER which competes against the US militarily. And WHY ------to make a FEW, already rich American top 1% types richer that showed no loyalty or patriotism to America. .........If America had spent money to build US factories that used AI and robotics to manufacture products that would be cheaper than off shored products -----then we would NOT be in this MESS.

[fdpaq0580]

Right now, I think that the US is effectively out of NATO because right now I doubt that we would HONOR OUR commitment to fight for a NATO country that got attacked. And Europe and the UK now know that THEY have to provide their OWN security. Also, those counties and Australia and Japan will be VERY unwilling to share sensitive spy information with the US. We are becoming the THREAT to the rest of the world.

Any similarities to Germany pre-WWII? Asking for a friend.

[jimjamuser]

++++ Just love those folks striking out at the serious work being done to rid out federal waste, fraud, abuse of OUR TAX DOLLARS. Yes - brainwashed, and paid to protest by the folks who despise our country. And the idiotic striking out at a major company and its customers.
Same with the serious work being done to FINALLY correct the USA trade policies worldwide.

This takes GUTS and strength and willingness to take short term heat. 95% of the countries are standing in line to make DEALS, all for the betterment of the USA and a good deal for both. China will be standing alone soon, odd man out. Just where we want them. I have tremendous faith that leveling the Trade playing field and hitting China economically.

As you said, the 'denial or brainwashed' folks will not/cannot see the facts. EVERYTHING being done, for the betterment of the USA and 95% world, is constantly berated.
Sorry, but I see the world completely differently.

[jimjamuser]

With a slight of hand, businesses figured out how to put a large portion of the debit side of their ledgers on the backs of US citizens and then convinced us we were getting a great deal with cheaper foreign products. Few noticed how the jobless affected our budgets at home with the jobs shipped overseas. As we pay out of our pockets for all the programs that support the loss of employment, subsidized housing/rent, Medicaid, food stamps, health insurance and all the social programs for the jobless not to mention the lack of dignity and loss of self esteem for those affected. We also lost the very important ability to care for ourselves in the event of world disagreements or worse. Yeah, we sure came out ahead, ahem.:loco:
Actually, I can agree with that. I would add that it is OBVIOUS that NOT 100% of all Americans are meant to be Silicon Valley millionaires or Wall St. stock brokers. 80% of Americans would be better off working in a blue collar situation with labor UNION protections. Germany works well where management and UNION workers do NOT fight each other, but work together for the benefit of their company and COUNTRY. The US problem goes back to the elimination of high school VOCATIONAL training. That was ELIMINATED to keep property taxes LOW for the rich people with large properties.........Blue collar work SHOULD BE respected.

[Pugchief]

yes, debt needs to be turned around, but it will be made worse by the upcoming new tax percentages. The upper 1% will pay LESS and the middle and lower classes will pay MORE.

Do you have a source with facts to back up this fantasy?

[jimjamuser]

remember when in school you were a good student, and then a subject came up which you didn't quite understand as quickly as others? homework was good, but tests didn't always get the same results? You felt confident and then the results didn't happen as expected?

Starting to happen alot these days . .

In this case in poker it's called a bluff, a large bet, and the opponent doesn't get intimidated, and you start to second guess the situation. . and then realize you miscalculated, and you have to fold. .

Folding happened with Russia, the outcome didn't match the expected test results
Folding in tariffs would appear more slowly. . and with lots more spin. .

ITs called folding after a bluff. . . because a view of the world isn't a winning view of how the world works for your position. . .
Sorry, I tried hard, twice to understand where that was going. I tried, but I could not?

[Aces4]

The American consumer was tricked by large American companies that moved off shore to avoid paying Americans and to avoid UNIONS that kept wages high. We made China STRONG and now a MONSTER which competes against the US militarily. And WHY ------to make a FEW, already rich American top 1% types richer that showed no loyalty or patriotism to America. .........If America had spent money to build US factories that used AI and robotics to manufacture products that would be cheaper than off shored products -----then we would NOT be in this MESS.

Unions were the bane of America at the point businesses started leaving. It's one thing to stand up for fair wages, safe working conditions and benefits, it's another to feed the bloated union heads and insist on ridiculous wages and trying make everyone working in a plant instant millionaires.

When you're working the line and union co-workers tell you to slow down, we don't work that fast.. that is a problem since you were dragging home healthy wages and benefits. More for less became the motto.

[MorTech]

I listen to the vp at Merrill for my advice! Good luck with that. So I’m guessing he has you sitting pretty with no moves while your portfolio is down 20+%, and it’s still going down. But while you are losing wealth, the vp is still making his money, right?

Unless your vp told you to sell when your holdings were high, then he is no better than a kid on the street making a statement. Does your vp have the same credentials as Buffet? If he does, you would have a lot of cash on hand to make new stock purchases in the near future. I even know this, I sold everything last December and waiting to get back in.

If the vp told you to stay the course, in a couple of years you will be back to what you had at the start of 2025 unless you have to sell shares to live on during this downturn, then it will take longer to recover.

Market risk? IMO, you are at risk if you don’t know what you are doing financially and depend on a broker and assume you will make money in the long run. I have helped so many friends that were paying somebody to handle their investments that were not making them money, or very little money.

I sell high all the time, I can’t remember ever having a loss, maybe back in 2000, but until recently I never sold a share in a downturn until the end of 2021 and last December. Take the emotions out of selling, put a trailing stop loss on your stocks. I would happily pay a couple % in taxes if I’m making hundreds of thousands in gains, better than getting a $3000 write off every year on your taxes for losing money when selling.

Another risk is being too cautious in your investments that you never make money or very little after inflation. For example, I will never buy bonds, never have, you can’t make any money on them unless they are high risk. Annuities will never make you money in the long run and with their high fees, you’ve already lost money. There are hundreds of index funds that have very low risk, high returns, with decent dividends all with around .02-.05% fees. There were many stocks in 2023 and in 2024 that had multiple 100’s % gains and history will repeat itself in the coming months.

Word!

It is laughable that people take financial advice from these "2 and 20" maggots who claim to be professional financial experts. Brokers make you broker in this racket. Even Buffett claims they are just fraudsters and thieves.

[Aces4]

Actually, I can agree with that. I would add that it is OBVIOUS that NOT 100% of all Americans are meant to be Silicon Valley millionaires or Wall St. stock brokers. 80% of Americans would be better off working in a blue collar situation with labor UNION protections. Germany works well where management and UNION workers do NOT fight each other, but work together for the benefit of their company and COUNTRY. The US problem goes back to the elimination of high school VOCATIONAL training. That was ELIMINATED to keep property taxes LOW for the rich people with large properties.........Blue collar work SHOULD BE respected.

I think you have a tendency to use cyclop's vision for most matters. Vocational training was eliminated due to the drop in interest because college had become the "thing" and is being restored in many school districts at this point. To proclaim it was eliminated for the benefit of the rich has no merit. It is much easier for the wealthy to pay property taxes than the middle income or poor population.

[jimjamuser]

Any similarities to Germany pre-WWII? Asking for a friend.
Probably a lot. One that comes to mind Is that Germany threatened countries close around it. And the US has recently been salivating about Greenland.

[jimjamuser]

Do you have a source with facts to back up this fantasy?
That is either common knowledge or it should be common knowledge. Tax policy really means everything and it is NOT talked about enough.

[Aces4]

Probably a lot. One that comes to mind Is that Germany threatened countries close around it. And the US has recently been salivating about Greenland.

Time for some to take a nap, the conversation has turned ludicrous.

[jimjamuser]

Unions were the bane of America at the point businesses started leaving. It's one thing to stand up for fair wages, safe working conditions and benefits, it's another to feed the bloated union heads and insist on ridiculous wages and trying make everyone working in a plant instant millionaires.

When you're working the line and union co-workers tell you to slow down, we don't work that fast.. that is a problem since you were dragging home healthy wages and benefits. More for less became the motto.
True that Unions are not perfect. Nothing is. But, they work well in Germany, but not in America. Harley Davidson went broke and was purchased by UNION WORKERS. A person can make a case for unions (I do). And a case can be made against them. In general Americans talked about their NEXT GENERATION getting better from WW2 until about 1970. When Unions started losing members and power then each newer generation has succeeded LESS than the generation before it. Until today when we are on the brink of total rule by the top 10 %.That is not a world like I grew up in.

[dewilson58]

I loved the TV comedy show "According to Jim" with Jim Belushi & Courtney Thorn-Smith.


:clap2::clap2::clap2:

[jimjamuser]

I think you have a tendency to use cyclop's vision for most matters. Vocational training was eliminated due to the drop in interest because college had become the "thing" and is being restored in many school districts at this point. To proclaim it was eliminated for the benefit of the rich has no merit. It is much easier for the wealthy to pay property taxes than the middle income or poor population.
Normal thinking would agree that it would/should be easy for the wealthy to pay school property taxes, but don't forget , they are greedy for MORE money. To them money is GOD. VOCATIONAL education was NOT eliminated from LACK of INTEREST. It cost MORE than just pens, pencils and textbooks. VOCATIONAL requires equipment. In my home town (back in time) we had 2 high school, college prep and vocational 50% of 8th graders went to Vocational. Girls went to hair dressing classes and food prep classes. Boys went into car repair, car body work, and even accounting assistants. That is a short history on the disappearance of Vocational schools in the US. I am sure that books have been written about it. Also, it could be googled. Believe me, I am NOT lying. I LIVED it.

[jimjamuser]

Time for some to take a nap, the conversation has turned ludicrous.
Actually, the Greenlanders are worried and so are MANY CANADIANS.

[MorTech]

I wonder where the humanity-hating parasites find all these "protesters"...At insane asylums is my guess :)

[MorTech]

Actually, the Greenlanders are worried and so are MANY CANADIANS.

Are they worried about being liberated from the colonizing parasites in the City of London and Brussels? I would like to be the first to welcome Alberta as our 51st state :)

It is a moral imperative that we dust off the Monroe Doctrine :)

It is probably too late...We are too far gone.

[J1ceasar]

If you're not going to buy your TV or stereo or an import car in the next 5 years tariffs really do very little to be worried about.
By the way do you know that the US sells 40 billion of food to China or China only sells $4 billion dollars of food to us.
Just as important as as tariffs are the incremental barriers that governments place on imports of products such as overly cautious inspections for foodstuffs or chemicals, just one example is that the FDA took 6 months or a year longer to approve coated stents, while they were approved in Europe. I know this because I had them when I had my heart attack many years ago and my heart doctor was surprised I had them.

You're not going to be flying on a chinese-made plane in a long time either because the FAA has not decided to allow the China aeronautic to fly in the US.

I'm just quoting some of the things that governments do. Has another example the other foot is that Australian is not allowed American chopped meat into their country while they sell 20 billion of meat to the US.
By the way I've been in importer from China for about 40 years so I think I know a little bit of what I speak.

This is probably also going to kill at least a few hundred billion of business for wholesalers and employers as well as make it a lot more expensive for the average person when they go shopping in Walmart. Everyday item is that average people buy such a sneakers or green beans may go up things like jeans t-shirts etc it's going to take one or two years for factories to relocate to places like Vietnam and Malaysia the other decided to only give 0% import tariffs to the US.
Just my two cents

[J1ceasar]

Avocados are mostly grown in Mexico blueberries and strawberries and other fruits of grown in Venezuela and South America, all those items will either be in short supply or vastly overpriced compared to this year.
thankfully we grow beef,chickens and eggs, most feel is from Australia sorry guys you can't get your real parmesan anymore reasonable

[Pugchief]

I loved the TV comedy show "According to Jim" with Jim Belushi & Courtney Thorn-Smith.


:) :)

[Aces4]

Normal thinking would agree that it would/should be easy for the wealthy to pay school property taxes, but don't forget , they are greedy for MORE money. To them money is GOD. VOCATIONAL education was NOT eliminated from LACK of INTEREST. It cost MORE than just pens, pencils and textbooks. VOCATIONAL requires equipment. In my home town (back in time) we had 2 high school, college prep and vocational 50% of 8th graders went to Vocational. Girls went to hair dressing classes and food prep classes. Boys went into car repair, car body work, and even accounting assistants. That is a short history on the disappearance of Vocational schools in the US. I am sure that books have been written about it. Also, it could be googled. Believe me, I am NOT lying. I LIVED it.

Could this possibly be your impression of money projected on the rich? Seriously, the wealthy people of whom I am aware are full steam ahead for education and often gifts are awarded to schools through them.

The people you are profiling for wealth sound as though they are scrambling to make ends meet and taxes make them sweat.

[Aces4]

Avocados are mostly grown in Mexico blueberries and strawberries and other fruits of grown in Venezuela and South America, all those items will either be in short supply or vastly overpriced compared to this year.
thankfully we grow beef,chickens and eggs, most feel is from Australia sorry guys you can't get your real parmesan anymore reasonable

Avocados can be grown in Hawaii, California and Florida.

Blueberries can be grown in Washington, Oregon, Georgia, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, California, and Florida.

Strawberries can be grown in fresh strawberries are primarily grown in California (roughly 90 percent annually) and Florida (about 8 percent), followed by New York, North Carolina, Oregon, and Washington and many other states seasonally.

[daniel200]

reuters.com (https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-excludes-smartphones-computers-reciprocal-tariffs-2025-04-12/)

Get ready for massive corruption as companies grovel for tariff exemptions.

And now 24 hours later, it seems the exemption is being walked back. Another course reversal/flip-flop.

[daniel200]

Avocados can be grown in Hawaii, California and Florida.

Blueberries can be grown in Washington, Oregon, Georgia, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, California, and Florida.

Strawberries can be grown in fresh strawberries are primarily grown in California (roughly 90 percent annually) and Florida (about 8 percent), followed by New York, North Carolina, Oregon, and Washington and many other states seasonally.

True, they can be grown in the states and then rot on the vine as the fruit pickers leave the USA. It is similar with eggs. All the large corporate “egg factories” in the USA depend on immigrant labor. Same with the beef and pork processing plants.

[jimjamuser]

Could this possibly be your impression of money projected on the rich? Seriously, the wealthy people of whom I am aware are full steam ahead for education and often gifts are awarded to schools through them.

The people you are profiling for wealth sound as though they are scrambling to make ends meet and taxes make them sweat.
The upper 10 % do NOT do things for money per se, but mostly for POWER and bragging rights. Some keep working because they like the challenge. Warren Buffet could have quit long ago.

[jimjamuser]

Could this possibly be your impression of money projected on the rich? Seriously, the wealthy people of whom I am aware are full steam ahead for education and often gifts are awarded to schools through them.

The people you are profiling for wealth sound as though they are scrambling to make ends meet and taxes make them sweat.
If wealthy people are so interested in education, then why do they put people on school boards purposely to keep the school property tax DOWN. It is that way in DeSoto County, Fl. "taxes make them sweat" ? They don't because they have CONTROLLED the tax brackets to be very low for themselves.

[jimjamuser]

True, they can be grown in the states and then rot on the vine as the fruit pickers leave the USA. It is similar with eggs. All the large corporate “egg factories” in the USA depend on immigrant labor. Same with the beef and pork processing plants.
That is true, but is it RIGHT to bring in illegals to RUIN a country just for the GREED of few owners. There should be ZERO jobs for ILLEGALS. Pay US workers enough for them to work, let them be unionized to protect their HEALTH. If employers need to have slave- laborers, that is their problem. They should get into another business. Their children go to schools and clog up already overcrowded classrooms and they have no health records or immunizations. It is just a bad disgusting system that brings down America. And all for GREED.

[MorTech]

What if Latvia triggers a NATO Article 5 event...What are YOU going to do?
USA has no obligation to NATO....NONE!
It ain't 1990 anymore.

[Pballer]

That is true, but is it RIGHT to bring in illegals to RUIN a country just for the GREED of few owners. There should be ZERO jobs for ILLEGALS. Pay US workers enough for them to work, let them be unionized to protect their HEALTH. If employers need to have slave- laborers, that is their problem. They should get into another business. Their children go to schools and clog up already overcrowded classrooms and they have no health records or immunizations. It is just a bad disgusting system that brings down America. And all for GREED.

Or do what Florida wants to do - let teenagers work as much as they want on school days for crappy wages to make up for the expulsion of illegal workers; if they are too tired to get an education no big deal, this is Florida after all.

[MorTech]

I worked at a UAW shop first job out of college. I will never knowingly buy anything made in a USA Union shop. I will pay the tariff. There are plenty of other productive competitors in Southeast Asia coming alive now to displace China. They were first to want to negotiate a low tariff deal.

[MorTech]

Again...China and Russia are NOT our enemies - They're our rivals...The City of London/Brussels/Ottawa are the enemy. This was made obvious for all to see with these tariff threats. The China tariff retaliation was more about saving face and Xi's political survival at home. People are so gaslit by the manipulating parasites on television that they can't think rationally.

Pax Americana is the ultimate goal...And it is GOOD! The individual is sovereign over the government. Eliminate worldwide Fascist National Mercantilism and create one global free market with one language (English) and one common medium of exchange (USD) and Bitcoin. Global wealth and peace will flourish. This has been the dream of The Illuminati...1776 was a great year for human individual freedom! :) The Illuminati/Deceleration of Independence/Wealth of Nations all in 1776.

[Aces4]

The upper 10 % do NOT do things for money per se, but mostly for POWER and bragging rights. Some keep working because they like the challenge. Warren Buffet could have quit long ago.

If one is sure "the rich", whatever amount of money that means to one, are so vile why does one stay?

It appears to be very important to some to level everything to nothing and live a programmed life. There are countries available in this world to where they can move and life their perfect life. I suggest they should pack and move on, they will never be happy with the American lifestyle. They need suppression in their life and everything squat level. Easy peasy solution and good for their health perhaps if they don't have to worry about their prejudices all the time.:crap2:

[Boomer]

That's all well and fine, but my tendency is to listen to my senior VP of wealth management at Merrill Lynch and not the "talking heads" on TV and the internet

EXCEPT——When that advisor is also a long time personal friend and pretty much does the same with his own money as he does with mine

Hey, ge,

All I did was suggest a couple of general listens. No need for you to take umbrage. So a big bank’s advisor is your friend. Whatever makes you happy with your investments is certainly no concern of mine. But why be condescending?

Full disclosure from me:

I admit that I do not have a soft spot for your friend’s firm. As previously stated somewhere in this meandering thread, I am not a fan of big banks — and BAC acquired that firm for their advisory. Are BAC and its stockholders in line to be paid from advisors’ sales?

Yes, I said, “sales,” but that does not always mean what we usually think of as sales commissions on annuities or other insurance policies. I am referring to expense ratios on funds.

Expense ratios along with AUM fees go on even when the investor is not making money. (said Boomer, stating the obvious)

All financial advisors are in sales. Successful salespeople tend their relationships. I will resist asking if your friend was your friend before you were courted by his firm.

My other bias when It comes to advisors, in general, is that I would prefer an arms-length, professional relationship. That way, if breaking up becomes necessary, it is not hard to do.

A friend of mine has his money with his nephew. The friend was always bragging about his nephew’s lifestyle. When QCDs first became an ongoing thing in tax law, his nephew told him he could put his money in a DAF and not have to include it in his AGI.

In a string of emails, my friend kept insisting his “brilliant” rich nephew was right. Finally, I got an email that said, “Thank you for being so persistent.”

Yeah, I saved him from a big tax mistake. It took him a while to listen to me though. I have no doubt it was because I am a woman. Women talking about investments seems to bother certain types of guys.

Boomer

[jimjamuser]

What if Latvia triggers a NATO Article 5 event...What are YOU going to do?
USA has no obligation to NATO....NONE!
It ain't 1990 anymore.
Yes the US IS still a member of NATO and is therefore BOUND by Article 5 which states that an attack on ONE member is considered an attack on all. Note - there are currently 30 member countries of NATO.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Yeah, I saved him from a big tax mistake. It took him a while to listen to me though. I have no doubt it was because I am a woman. Women talking about investments seems to bother certain types of guys.

Boomer

maybe being a woman, maybe not. maybe other factors like professional bias, education bias, expert bias, success bias, maybe not.

Our financial advisor at Fidelity is a woman, and she and I can sit there and talk for hours about markets. She and I grew up very similarly as far as education, athletics and interests. Never knew her until three years ago, but she went to a nearby school which we occasionally competed against, same with our kids. . I disagreed with her about the fidelity outlook for the rest of the year. . we will see who is right, so far I am , but there is a long way to go before the end of the year. .

Most financial plans work, until they don't. . . same with most every plan conceived. .

good luck all, most of us will need it. .

[jimjamuser]

If one is sure "the rich", whatever amount of money that means to one, are so vile why does one stay?

It appears to be very important to some to level everything to nothing and live a programmed life. There are countries available in this world to where they can move and life their perfect life. I suggest they should pack and move on, they will never be happy with the American lifestyle. They need suppression in their life and everything squat level. Easy peasy solution and good for their health perhaps if they don't have to worry about their prejudices all the time.:crap2:
I would define "the rich"as the upper 30% in the US. I had trouble understanding the last paragraph in that post?

[jimjamuser]

Hey, ge,

All I did was suggest a couple of general listens. No need for you to take umbrage. So a big bank’s advisor is your friend. Whatever makes you happy with your investments is certainly no concern of mine. But why be condescending?

Full disclosure from me:

I admit that I do not have a soft spot for your friend’s firm. As previously stated somewhere in this meandering thread, I am not a fan of big banks — and BAC acquired that firm for their advisory. Are BAC and its stockholders in line to be paid from advisors’ sales?

Yes, I said, “sales,” but that does not always mean what we usually think of as sales commissions on annuities or other insurance policies. I am referring to expense ratios on funds.

Expense ratios along with AUM fees go on even when the investor is not making money. (said Boomer, stating the obvious)

All financial advisors are in sales. Successful salespeople tend their relationships. I will resist asking if your friend was your friend before you were courted by his firm.

My other bias when It comes to advisors, in general, is that I would prefer an arms-length, professional relationship. That way, if breaking up becomes necessary, it is not hard to do.

A friend of mine has his money with his nephew. The friend was always bragging about his nephew’s lifestyle. When QCDs first became an ongoing thing in tax law, his nephew told him he could put his money in a DAF and not have to include it in his AGI.

In a string of emails, my friend kept insisting his “brilliant” rich nephew was right. Finally, I got an email that said, “Thank you for being so persistent.”

Yeah, I saved him from a big tax mistake. It took him a while to listen to me though. I have no doubt it was because I am a woman. Women talking about investments seems to bother certain types of guys.

Boomer
You go........WOMAN. But I have one small extraneous question-----who is Pogo and why are they right?

[fdpaq0580]

Yes the US IS still a member of NATO and is therefore BOUND by Article 5 which states that an attack on ONE member is considered an attack on all. Note - there are currently 30 member countries of NATO.

Tes, assuming that the "leadership" is honorable, honest, law abiding, ethical, truthful, willing to serve and due their duty under said agreement.
Currently, I'm not so sure that is the case. Sadly!

[Pugchief]

Or do what Florida wants to do - let teenagers work as much as they want on school days for crappy wages to make up for the expulsion of illegal workers; if they are too tired to get an education no big deal, this is Florida after all.

So many fallacies:
1. If more teenagers were working, less would be getting into trouble. Not instead of school, in addition. Maybe make part time jobs mandatory!
2. "Crappy wages" are paid to unskilled, somewhat unreliable teens because that's what the free market will bear. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, but most would for some pocket money. My first job in 1975 at a fried chicken chain paid $1.65/hour, well less than minimum wage and I was thrilled to get the job.
3. Illegal workers are ILLEGAL, and shouldn't be here in the first place. Even if working, the freebies cost taxpayers a fortune.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

By the way I've been in importer from China for about 40 years so I think I know a little bit of what I speak.

This is probably also going to kill at least a few hundred billion of business for wholesalers and employers as well as make it a lot more expensive for the average person when they go shopping in Walmart. Everyday item is that average people buy such a sneakers or green beans may go up things like jeans t-shirts etc it's going to take one or two years for factories to relocate to places like Vietnam and Malaysia the other decided to only give 0% import tariffs to the US.
Just my two cents

From experience, I appreciate the viewpoint.

But I also think that once many small companies are finished with their current inventory cycle, delivered prior to the tariffs, that post tariffs, many will not have the financial power to pay the import tariff, and pass all of it on to the customer, and will therefore go bankrupt.

Small businesses already have barriers to entry with oligopolies, of which most large national corporations have created with mergers and acquisitions.

The current economy is not the same as 10, 20 and definitely 40 years ago.

And for the oligopolies, they will pass on as much as they can, it will be inflationary, true, and plateau, which is how inflation works most times, jump conditions, then hold steady. . and the jump happens between everyone's pay raises and merit increases. . so we are always behind inflation, feature not a bug

[Pballer]

So many fallacies:
1. If more teenagers were working, less would be getting into trouble. Not instead of school, in addition. Maybe make part time jobs mandatory!
2. "Crappy wages" are paid to unskilled, somewhat unreliable teens because that's what the free market will bear. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, but most would for some pocket money. My first job in 1975 at a fried chicken chain paid $1.65/hour, well less than minimum wage and I was thrilled to get the job.
3. Illegal workers are ILLEGAL, and shouldn't be here in the first place. Even if working, the freebies cost taxpayers a fortune.

Florida wants to allow teenagers to work unlimited hours and overnight shifts on school nights. Think about that.

Illegals pay taxes and do useful work that Americans don't want to do. It would be good if they would all be thrown out of the country though. Then perhaps the hatred of immigrants would be tempered when you can't find anyone to fix your roof, do your landscaping, or the price of food skyrockets.

[Pballer]

And now 24 hours later, it seems the exemption is being walked back. Another course reversal/flip-flop.

We shall see if the exemption is actually walked back. They are supposed to come up with a new tariff plan for computers, smartphones and electronics. Maybe they will, or maybe it will be one of those plans that they say they will issue in 2 weeks that ends up being never issued.

[jimjamuser]

Or do what Florida wants to do - let teenagers work as much as they want on school days for crappy wages to make up for the expulsion of illegal workers; if they are too tired to get an education no big deal, this is Florida after all.
Bad as that would be. I think that it would be better than using ILLEGAL workers. Maybe a compromise would be to PAY high school seniors to work a 8 hour daytime shift for good wages and limit it to 3 days per week. Also have good working conditions. And find ways to use machines and robotics.

[Pugchief]

Florida wants to allow teenagers to work unlimited hours and overnight shifts on school nights. Think about that.

That's obviously not ideal, but why would a parent let their minor child work like that? Think about that.



Illegals pay taxes

Not always. Many get paid 'under the table'.

and do useful work that Americans don't want to do.

And yet every time a factory has a bunch of openings bc the illegals leave, there are always seem to be people who want those jobs.

It would be good if they would all be thrown out of the country though.

Yes, it would. Come legally and work. Come illegally and get deported.

the hatred of immigrants...

I can't speak for others, but I like immigrants, as long as they come legally and support themselves instead of expecting handouts. My parents were immigrants who came legally, and never took a dime of welfare. I can respect that. Can you?

[jimjamuser]

So many fallacies:
1. If more teenagers were working, less would be getting into trouble. Not instead of school, in addition. Maybe make part time jobs mandatory!
2. "Crappy wages" are paid to unskilled, somewhat unreliable teens because that's what the free market will bear. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, but most would for some pocket money. My first job in 1975 at a fried chicken chain paid $1.65/hour, well less than minimum wage and I was thrilled to get the job.
3. Illegal workers are ILLEGAL, and shouldn't be here in the first place. Even if working, the freebies cost taxpayers a fortune.
I agree especially with # 3.

[MorTech]

Other people's earnings don't belong to you. It is immoral to even think that you own other people.
Working crappy jobs motivates people to acquire higher marketable skills. You don't get to steal from those who do.
Almost all illegals live off the taxpayers...If you earn your living then I don't really care if you're here illegally.

[Pballer]

That's obviously not ideal, but why would a parent let their minor child work like that? Think about that.

Maybe the family needs money. A lot of Florida is poor with crappy schools; probably not The Villages Charter School area though.

[jimjamuser]

Florida wants to allow teenagers to work unlimited hours and overnight shifts on school nights. Think about that.

Illegals pay taxes and do useful work that Americans don't want to do. It would be good if they would all be thrown out of the country though. Then perhaps the hatred of immigrants would be tempered when you can't find anyone to fix your roof, do your landscaping, or the price of food skyrockets.
For me, it is NOT a HATRED of individual ILLEGAL aliens. I just see the road traffic and the bridges falling apart and I don't want anymore population in the US. The school classes are overcrowded as it is. The ILLEGALS take jobs away from citizens that have been born here and have ZERO patriotic allegiance to the US. I don't HATE the ILLEGALS. I hate the US systems that allowed them to enter the US in the first place. We don't know anything about their CRIMINAL RECORDS and we don't know if they are bringing any diseases into the US and if they have ANY shot records. We have a measles outbreak in Texas which may have come from illegal aliens. Plus, obviously, US citizens NOT getting shots, which is a whole other kind of mess.

[jimjamuser]

Other people's earnings don't belong to you. It is immoral to even think that you own other people.
Working crappy jobs motivates people to acquire higher marketable skills. You don't get to steal from those who do.
Almost all illegals live off the taxpayers...If you earn your living then I don't really care if you're here illegally.
I care if someone is here illegally.

[Dr.Butler]

So many fallacies:
1. If more teenagers were working, less would be getting into trouble. Not instead of school, in addition. Maybe make part time jobs mandatory!
2. "Crappy wages" are paid to unskilled, somewhat unreliable teens because that's what the free market will bear. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, but most would for some pocket money. My first job in 1975 at a fried chicken chain paid $1.65/hour, well less than minimum wage and I was thrilled to get the job.
3. Illegal workers are ILLEGAL, and shouldn't be here in the first place. Even if working, the freebies cost taxpayers a fortune.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. You’ve brought up some points that are definitely worth exploring. Let me respond to each:

1. Teen Jobs and Responsibility: It’s true that part-time jobs can instill responsibility, time management, and work ethic in teens—many studies support this. However, making jobs mandatory could introduce complications, especially for students involved in demanding academic programs, caregiving roles at home, or extracurriculars that are essential for scholarships or college prep. A better approach might be expanding access to optional youth employment programs that offer both flexibility and mentorship.

2. Teen Wages and Market Forces: You're right that entry-level wages often reflect market demand and perceived skill levels. But it's important to recognize that the labor landscape has changed dramatically since 1975. When you earned $1.65/hour, the cost of living—especially for essentials like housing, healthcare, and education was significantly lower. Today, even "pocket money" jobs can be essential for some teens who contribute to family income. Advocating for fair compensation and basic worker protections doesn’t mean disregarding market dynamics it means ensuring dignity and opportunity for all workers, including teens. (BTW, didnt you say in you first point that they would be mandatory? Now your saying no one is forcing them to do the jobs. Do you know the definition for mandatory?)

3. Undocumented Workers and Tax Contributions: While it's true that undocumented immigration presents legal and policy challenges, it's also important to recognize that undocumented workers contribute significantly to the U.S. economy including through taxes. The Social Security Administration estimates they contribute $6–$13 billion annually into Social Security alone, despite being ineligible to collect those benefits. Many also pay federal and state income taxes using ITINs, and like everyone else, they pay sales tax on purchases and property tax (directly or indirectly through rent). Yet they cannot access many public benefits such as Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, or federal relief programs. So while there are legitimate debates to be had around immigration enforcement, it's inaccurate to suggest undocumented individuals are simply a financial burden. They often pay into systems that they cannot benefit from. As an additional example, undocumented workers can file tax returns using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), and some do receive refunds if they overpaid taxes. However, they cannot claim many major benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) or Social Security refunds, even if they paid into those systems. So while refunds are possible, they're generally limited compared to what citizens or legal residents can receive.

[Dr.Butler]

For me, it is NOT a HATRED of individual ILLEGAL aliens. I just see the road traffic and the bridges falling apart and I don't want anymore population in the US. The school classes are overcrowded as it is. The ILLEGALS take jobs away from citizens that have been born here and have ZERO patriotic allegiance to the US. I don't HATE the ILLEGALS. I hate the US systems that allowed them to enter the US in the first place. We don't know anything about their CRIMINAL RECORDS and we don't know if they are bringing any diseases into the US and if they have ANY shot records. We have a measles outbreak in Texas which may have come from illegal aliens. Plus, obviously, US citizens NOT getting shots, which is a whole other kind of mess.

Wow. So you think that more people leads to infrastructure decay? Not that state governments do nothing to maintain them. You think that classroom size is due to more people. Not that we do not pay enough for more teachers to enter the profession. You think that a person is "illegal" because the committed a civil misdemeanor (Like speeding which is basically the norm in this state, or driving without a seat belt) makes someone to be treated the same as a felon? Also its interesting that you think that Americans are ready to do the jobs that are being done by immigrants. Here is a thought, they are NOT doing those jobs now. Ask farmers how many Americans are coming in to do them. And you think that a measles outbreak is caused by "illegal aliens", knowing that not getting vaccinated is what leads to the outbreak, while wholly excluding people that travel from ALL OVER THE WORLD, legally, on vacation. We literally had measles beaten in this country until people stopped taking the vaccines. Then they cry when they become infected or lose loved ones.

[Dr.Butler]

Other people's earnings don't belong to you. It is immoral to even think that you own other people.
Working crappy jobs motivates people to acquire higher marketable skills. You don't get to steal from those who do.
Almost all illegals live off the taxpayers...If you earn your living then I don't really care if you're here illegally.

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers? Do they get SS? Medical in this country is paid for, not free, so we know they are not getting that for free. Food? We are ALL paying more for that. Please, enlighten me, WITH evidence, what they get from taxpayers. And I would seriously check your source before you use it.

[Dr.Butler]

True, they can be grown in the states and then rot on the vine as the fruit pickers leave the USA. It is similar with eggs. All the large corporate “egg factories” in the USA depend on immigrant labor. Same with the beef and pork processing plants.

This. And as proof, Trump is now saying that those that work on farms and hotels (His industry) can stay. That is, in of itself an admission that he may realize he made a mistake.

[Dr.Butler]

What if Latvia triggers a NATO Article 5 event...What are YOU going to do?
USA has no obligation to NATO....NONE!
It ain't 1990 anymore.

I would expect the US to do exactly what NATO did during 9/11. If you don't know what NATO did to help and support us, then I suggest you learn. The basic premise of NATO, you attack one, you attack all. Its literally the ultimate deterrent. You attack one of us, you know the rest of us are coming for you. As an American you should at least know united we stand divided we .....

[jimjamuser]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. You’ve brought up some points that are definitely worth exploring. Let me respond to each:

1. Teen Jobs and Responsibility: It’s true that part-time jobs can instill responsibility, time management, and work ethic in teens—many studies support this. However, making jobs mandatory could introduce complications, especially for students involved in demanding academic programs, caregiving roles at home, or extracurriculars that are essential for scholarships or college prep. A better approach might be expanding access to optional youth employment programs that offer both flexibility and mentorship.

2. Teen Wages and Market Forces: You're right that entry-level wages often reflect market demand and perceived skill levels. But it's important to recognize that the labor landscape has changed dramatically since 1975. When you earned $1.65/hour, the cost of living—especially for essentials like housing, healthcare, and education was significantly lower. Today, even "pocket money" jobs can be essential for some teens who contribute to family income. Advocating for fair compensation and basic worker protections doesn’t mean disregarding market dynamics it means ensuring dignity and opportunity for all workers, including teens. (BTW, didnt you say in you first point that they would be mandatory? Now your saying no one is forcing them to do the jobs. Do you know the definition for mandatory?)

3. Undocumented Workers and Tax Contributions: While it's true that undocumented immigration presents legal and policy challenges, it's also important to recognize that undocumented workers contribute significantly to the U.S. economy including through taxes. The Social Security Administration estimates they contribute $6–$13 billion annually into Social Security alone, despite being ineligible to collect those benefits. Many also pay federal and state income taxes using ITINs, and like everyone else, they pay sales tax on purchases and property tax (directly or indirectly through rent). Yet they cannot access many public benefits such as Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, or federal relief programs. So while there are legitimate debates to be had around immigration enforcement, it's inaccurate to suggest undocumented individuals are simply a financial burden. They often pay into systems that they cannot benefit from. As an additional example, undocumented workers can file tax returns using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), and some do receive refunds if they overpaid taxes. However, they cannot claim many major benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) or Social Security refunds, even if they paid into those systems. So while refunds are possible, they're generally limited compared to what citizens or legal residents can receive.
A good post. Good analysis.

[Pugchief]

Maybe the family needs money. A lot of Florida is poor with crappy schools; probably not The Villages Charter School area though.

Parents' first responsibility is to parent. That means making sure your child is in school and doing homework, etc.

[Pugchief]

For me, it is NOT a HATRED of individual ILLEGAL aliens. I just see the road traffic and the bridges falling apart and I don't want anymore population in the US. The school classes are overcrowded as it is. The ILLEGALS take jobs away from citizens that have been born here and have ZERO patriotic allegiance to the US. I don't HATE the ILLEGALS. I hate the US systems that allowed them to enter the US in the first place. We don't know anything about their CRIMINAL RECORDS and we don't know if they are bringing any diseases into the US and if they have ANY shot records. We have a measles outbreak in Texas which may have come from illegal aliens. Plus, obviously, US citizens NOT getting shots, which is a whole other kind of mess.

OMG. We have agreed twice in one thread. There is hope for the world. :)

[Pugchief]

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers?

Seriously? Look at NYC and Chicago. Free hotel rooms. Free food. Free schools. Free health care. Free phones. All at the expense of the taxpayers. Good grief.

[jimjamuser]

Wow. So you think that more people leads to infrastructure decay? Not that state governments do nothing to maintain them. You think that classroom size is due to more people. Not that we do not pay enough for more teachers to enter the profession. You think that a person is "illegal" because the committed a civil misdemeanor (Like speeding which is basically the norm in this state, or driving without a seat belt) makes someone to be treated the same as a felon? Also its interesting that you think that Americans are ready to do the jobs that are being done by immigrants. Here is a thought, they are NOT doing those jobs now. Ask farmers how many Americans are coming in to do them. And you think that a measles outbreak is caused by "illegal aliens", knowing that not getting vaccinated is what leads to the outbreak, while wholly excluding people that travel from ALL OVER THE WORLD, legally, on vacation. We literally had measles beaten in this country until people stopped taking the vaccines. Then they cry when they become infected or lose loved ones.
American citizens would and will do those jobs when they are PAID properly. And, obviously, from the FARMERS point of view, they are going to "say" that they can't get Americans to do those jobs. The FARMERS, which are really mega -corporate FARMERS, are lying. The could get TONS of US LEGAL workers if they paid they them enough. I am NOT talking from the farmers viewpoint, but from what is best for US society as a whole. State governments could (???) maintain existing roads and even add more lanes IF THEY WANTED TO.) They don't. State taxes would have to increase. Florida roads have ALWAYS been behind the rapid population growth.

[jimjamuser]

Classroom size depends on several variables. One would be rapid population growth. Another would be having MORE teachers by paying them more. Another would be keeping the teachers SAFE in the classroom, which would be a whole topic unto itself. And I think that a person is "ILLEGAL" if they meet the definition of an illegal aliens.

[Aces4]

True, they can be grown in the states and then rot on the vine as the fruit pickers leave the USA. It is similar with eggs. All the large corporate “egg factories” in the USA depend on immigrant labor. Same with the beef and pork processing plants.

It is amazing that we citizens of the USA are just too important, better said as lazy, to do any physical work. But so many live in gyms and spas for their workouts. We have a pretentious and plastic society now. You are probably right and we the people should just get ready for what the lack of ambition will wreak down the road shortly.

[Aces4]

I would define "the rich"as the upper 30% in the US. I had trouble understanding the last paragraph in that post?

I think you understand the last paragraph just fine, IMHO.

[jimjamuser]

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers? Do they get SS? Medical in this country is paid for, not free, so we know they are not getting that for free. Food? We are ALL paying more for that. Please, enlighten me, WITH evidence, what they get from taxpayers. And I would seriously check your source before you use it.
They send their children to public schools. They use public roads and other facilities.They may NOT be vaccinated. They drive cars without a US drivers license. Basically they should NOT be here. Illegal means illegal. I can't breech the border in Canada and EXPECT that their police would handle me with kid gloves and thank me for breaking their law. Try sneaking into Canada and see how much they like it.

[jimjamuser]

OMG. We have agreed twice in one thread. There is hope for the world. :)
See I am NOT a Communist, never have been one. Grew up in a working class neighborhood. When to church. Liked public school. Played sports. Went to college. Joined the Military. Went back to college. Played more sports. Drove a Chevy and a Jeep. Just a small - town, all - American kind of guy.

[jimjamuser]

Seriously? Look at NYC and Chicago. Free hotel rooms. Free food. Free schools. Free health care. Free phones. All at the expense of the taxpayers. Good grief.
I agree.

[Boomer]

You go........WOMAN. But I have one small extraneous question-----who is Pogo and why are they right?

Pogo was a character in an old cartoon strip by Walt Kelly. What Pogo said was, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

I agree with Pogo. He very definitely was right.

Actually, the quote about the enemy being us, although often attributed to Pogo, actually goes back further than that, to somebody in the War of 1812. The quote was also used on an Earth Day poster in 1970. But I think it applies to America now, in a lot of ways

Boomer

PS: While we are on the subject of who said what, I am finding myself recently wondering who said,"The light at the end of the tunnel just might be a train."

[JMintzer]

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers? Do they get SS? Medical in this country is paid for, not free, so we know they are not getting that for free. Food? We are ALL paying more for that. Please, enlighten me, WITH evidence, what they get from taxpayers. And I would seriously check your source before you use it.

Many border hospitals have closed their doors due to being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants using the Emergency Rooms and their primary care facilities (by law, they cannot be denied service), and Obstetric services despite having ZERO pre-natal care.

I saw the Maternity department shuttered at my Catholic Charities hospital in DC, once they illegal immigrant population found out they could show up (often from well over 100 miles away), 9 months pregnant and have a baby at no charge. The malpractice insurance rates crippled the Obstetricians giving care. The hospital then hired them, since SOMEONE had to handle the massive influx of deliveries.

After a few lawsuits, with massive settlements (due to the complete lack of pre-natal care), they simply gave up and closed the department...

[Dr.Butler]

Seriously? Look at NYC and Chicago. Free hotel rooms. Free food. Free schools. Free health care. Free phones. All at the expense of the taxpayers. Good grief.

I get the frustration; the situation in cities like NYC and Chicago is certainly complex, but some of these claims need clarification.

Yes, there have been cases where cities have provided temporary shelter (including hotel rooms) and basic necessities to migrants, especially during recent surges. But these are emergency measures, often coordinated with nonprofits or funded partially through state or federal aid, not blanket “free perks.”

Free schools? That’s been the law since the 1982 Plyler v. Doe Supreme Court ruling — all children, regardless of immigration status, have the right to public education.

Health care? Undocumented immigrants can’t access Medicare, Medicaid, or ACA plans in most cases. They can only get emergency treatment, which hospitals are legally required to provide.

Free phones? That’s a misunderstanding. Phones are sometimes issued to asylum seekers as part of a tracking system — not for personal use, but to ensure they attend court hearings.

Free food? Some food assistance comes from local charities or short-term programs, not long-term taxpayer-funded benefits like SNAP, which undocumented immigrants don’t qualify for.

Also worth noting: undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes every year through sales tax, property tax (even when renting), and even payroll tax if they’re working under borrowed or fake SSNs. Yet they can’t claim most public benefits.

There’s room for debate on how best to manage immigration, but we need to be clear on the facts if we’re going to have an honest conversation.

[Dr.Butler]

Many border hospitals have closed their doors due to being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants using the Emergency Rooms and their primary care facilities (by law, they cannot be denied service), and Obstetric services despite having ZERO pre-natal care.

I saw the Maternity department shuttered at my Catholic Charities hospital in DC, once they illegal immigrant population found out they could show up (often from well over 100 miles away), 9 months pregnant and have a baby at no charge. The malpractice insurance rates crippled the Obstetricians giving care. The hospital then hired them, since SOMEONE had to handle the massive influx of deliveries.

After a few lawsuits, with massive settlements (due to the complete lack of pre-natal care), they simply gave up and closed the department...

Are you referring to the maternity units at Providence Hospital and United Medical Center (UMC) in Washington, D.C., in 2017?

Providence Hospital:

Closed its obstetrics unit in October 2017, delivering between 1,500 and 2,000 babies annually.

Accepted patients regardless of legal status or ability to pay, offering affordable rates and charity care packages.

The closure was part of a cost-saving measure by Ascension Health, the hospital's parent organization.

United Medical Center (UMC):

Ordered to shut down its obstetrics unit in August 2017 after a series of dangerous mistakes, including a patient death under questionable circumstances.

The closure left the District without an obstetrics ward east of the Anacostia River, affecting the city's poorest ward.

The hospital faced criticism for poor patient care and management issues.

These closures were primarily due to financial challenges, management decisions, and regulatory actions, rather than being directly attributed to undocumented immigrants. While hospitals like Providence did serve patients regardless of legal status, there is no evidence that supports the claim that undocumented immigrants were the primary cause of these closures.

[Dr.Butler]

Classroom size depends on several variables. One would be rapid population growth. Another would be having MORE teachers by paying them more. Another would be keeping the teachers SAFE in the classroom, which would be a whole topic unto itself. And I think that a person is "ILLEGAL" if they meet the definition of an illegal aliens.

And is that definition? As an aside, why are we (America) treating legal immigrants as if THEY are illegal?

[Lottoguy]

For 50 years the USA has had a trade deficit. In that same time period our economy has increased 350%. The entire world trade is now vastly different then it was when steel and coal was king.

[Pugchief]

I get the frustration; the situation in cities like NYC and Chicago is certainly complex, but some of these claims need clarification.

Yes, there have been cases where cities have provided temporary shelter (including hotel rooms) and basic necessities to migrants, especially during recent surges. But these are emergency measures, often coordinated with nonprofits or funded partially through state or federal aid, not blanket “free perks.”

Emergency measures? LOL, they were put up in those hotels for months.

Free schools? That’s been the law since the 1982 Plyler v. Doe Supreme Court ruling — all children, regardless of immigration status, have the right to public education.
So what? It's still the taxpayers supporting it and is a huge burden on the teachers, the system and the other students,

Health care? Undocumented immigrants can’t access Medicare, Medicaid, or ACA plans in most cases. They can only get emergency treatment, which hospitals are legally required to provide.
See JMintzer's post.

Free phones? That’s a misunderstanding. Phones are sometimes issued to asylum seekers as part of a tracking system — not for personal use, but to ensure they attend court hearings.
False. Phones provided to all. If you have proof otherwise, please provide it.

Free food? Some food assistance comes from local charities or short-term programs, not long-term taxpayer-funded benefits like SNAP, which undocumented immigrants don’t qualify for.
Not sure about this one, also please provide data. I assume the city is paying for it unless I see otherwise. NYC and Chicago have spent billions. Money is going somewhere (besides just cronies' pockets).

Also worth noting: undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes every year through sales tax, property tax (even when renting), and even payroll tax if they’re working under borrowed or fake SSNs. Yet they can’t claim most public benefits.
Payroll: Not if they're being paid under the table. Property: They don't rent, they get free housing. Sales: Yes, you are correct on that one.

There’s room for debate on how best to manage immigration, but we need to be clear on the facts if we’re going to have an honest conversation.
Not really, they are here ILLEGALLY, which is a crime. Come by legal channels and we can debate.

[jimjamuser]

I get the frustration; the situation in cities like NYC and Chicago is certainly complex, but some of these claims need clarification.

Yes, there have been cases where cities have provided temporary shelter (including hotel rooms) and basic necessities to migrants, especially during recent surges. But these are emergency measures, often coordinated with nonprofits or funded partially through state or federal aid, not blanket “free perks.”

Free schools? That’s been the law since the 1982 Plyler v. Doe Supreme Court ruling — all children, regardless of immigration status, have the right to public education.

Health care? Undocumented immigrants can’t access Medicare, Medicaid, or ACA plans in most cases. They can only get emergency treatment, which hospitals are legally required to provide.

Free phones? That’s a misunderstanding. Phones are sometimes issued to asylum seekers as part of a tracking system — not for personal use, but to ensure they attend court hearings.

Free food? Some food assistance comes from local charities or short-term programs, not long-term taxpayer-funded benefits like SNAP, which undocumented immigrants don’t qualify for.

Also worth noting: undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes every year through sales tax, property tax (even when renting), and even payroll tax if they’re working under borrowed or fake SSNs. Yet they can’t claim most public benefits.

There’s room for debate on how best to manage immigration, but we need to be clear on the facts if we’re going to have an honest conversation.
Last paragraph...."how best to manage immigration?" Actually, it is ILLEGAL immigration that I am opposed to. I see on TV huge line of ILLEGALS crossing our border into our country. Our country that I served in the military for. Those people have NOT served the US - our country. They are here to freeload on America's success. They bring diseases due to being un-vaccinated and we don't know their CRIMINAL RECORDS. There are unskilled men and women and they bring children that they expect America to educate. Basically, we don't either NEED or WANT them here. They just cause problems and then there is the add-on problem that some of them cause crime - over and above their INITIAL crime of transgressing our borders.

[jimjamuser]

And is that definition? As an aside, why are we (America) treating legal immigrants as if THEY are illegal?
I agree with the last sentence. That definitely is a problem. Another problem is that every 4 or 8 years there may be a large change in emphasis on legal and ILLEGAL immigration. The US can't seem to make up its mind. personally I think that a country should do an A.I. analysis to determine what its OPTIMAL population should be and then determine what its LEGAL immigration should be, IF ANY.

[JMintzer]

Are you referring to the maternity units at Providence Hospital and United Medical Center (UMC) in Washington, D.C., in 2017?

Providence Hospital:

Closed its obstetrics unit in October 2017, delivering between 1,500 and 2,000 babies annually.

Accepted patients regardless of legal status or ability to pay, offering affordable rates and charity care packages.

The closure was part of a cost-saving measure by Ascension Health, the hospital's parent organization.

United Medical Center (UMC):

Ordered to shut down its obstetrics unit in August 2017 after a series of dangerous mistakes, including a patient death under questionable circumstances.

The closure left the District without an obstetrics ward east of the Anacostia River, affecting the city's poorest ward.

The hospital faced criticism for poor patient care and management issues.

These closures were primarily due to financial challenges, management decisions, and regulatory actions, rather than being directly attributed to undocumented immigrants. While hospitals like Providence did serve patients regardless of legal status, there is no evidence that supports the claim that undocumented immigrants were the primary cause of these closures.

Except I was on the Credentials Committee and I was privy to all medical malpractice claims. I was also friends with several of the OB-GYNs who were initially in Private Practice, then became Hospital Employees and who finally left due to the problems they were facing.

Just because YOU couldn't find evidence of the hospital being overwhelmed doesn't mean it didn't happen...

[MorTech]

How to handle immigration? Provide sponsored work visas with a path to citizenship. Simple as that.
Allowing floods of people in and giving them $2K / month auto-filling debt cards at taxpayer expense is criminal.

Deliberate policy of offshoring manufacturing over the last 45 years was designed to make the people of the world more prosperous and peaceful. Removing tariff barriers against the USA is now needed to re-balance production/consumption globally for an even more prosperous and peaceful world. Mercantilism (National Industrial Policy (aka, Fascism) of a high-tariff export economy) needs to end. Problems of immigration/emigration will end as the entire world becomes wealthier. The world is close to 1000 trillion USD in total global wealth now! ...And growing rapidly!.

[Dr.Butler]

Not really, they are here ILLEGALLY, which is a crime. Come by legal channels and we can debate.

I will likely come around to your other comments. But why are we going after those that are here legally? The did everything legally, went through the process was granted legal status and now, we send them out as if they are criminals. Explain.

[Dr.Butler]

Last paragraph...."how best to manage immigration?" Actually, it is ILLEGAL immigration that I am opposed to. I see on TV huge line of ILLEGALS crossing our border into our country. Our country that I served in the military for. Those people have NOT served the US - our country. They are here to freeload on America's success. They bring diseases due to being un-vaccinated and we don't know their CRIMINAL RECORDS. There are unskilled men and women and they bring children that they expect America to educate. Basically, we don't either NEED or WANT them here. They just cause problems and then there is the add-on problem that some of them cause crime - over and above their INITIAL crime of transgressing our borders.

So much to unload here. But ok, lets focus on the military aspect. There are people who imigrate to this country, and decide to serve in the military to gain citizenship, and when they finish serving, are still denied citizenship. Deported Veterans, Stranded Far from Home after Years of Military Service, Press Biden to Bring Them Back - Government Executive (https://www.govexec.com/defense/2021/03/deported-veterans-stranded-far-home-after-years-military-service-press-biden-bring-them-back/172294/#:~:text=But%20in%202017%20a,little%20guidance%20a bout%20how)

"But in 2017 a Trump administration policy restricted access to the expedited citizenship promised to veterans after 9/11. And, in general, immigrant veterans get very little guidance about how to complete the naturalization process from their military branches once they have served."

The rest of your comments are literal talking points, with little or no evidence to support. You see huge lines on TV (See fox news) that suddenly disappear after an election cycle is over.

Diseases. Really? Aside from the fact that Mexico and America being neighbors would at least share somewhat similar rates of vaccination for childhood diseases. Its interesting to note your concern over these so called diseases but if everyone in America would be vaccinated there wouldn't be an issue here would there? (See Measles).

America's success has literally been built on the backs of immigrants (Of which you and I are one likely descendants of unless you are native American).

This is just some examples of where I see problems in your thought process. There are more, but I am thinking that facts do not matter in this conversation. Its all about your perceived grievances.

I thank you for your service. As a fellow veteran, all I will say is as our benefits get cut (Yes this is a real possibility at this point) will you still be worried about what immigrants are doing or what this administration (See Bone Spurs) is doing to us?

[jimjamuser]

So much to unload here. But ok, lets focus on the military aspect. There are people who imigrate to this country, and decide to serve in the military to gain citizenship, and when they finish serving, are still denied citizenship. Deported Veterans, Stranded Far from Home after Years of Military Service, Press Biden to Bring Them Back - Government Executive (https://www.govexec.com/defense/2021/03/deported-veterans-stranded-far-home-after-years-military-service-press-biden-bring-them-back/172294/#:~:text=But%20in%202017%20a,little%20guidance%20a bout%20how)

"But in 2017 a Trump administration policy restricted access to the expedited citizenship promised to veterans after 9/11. And, in general, immigrant veterans get very little guidance about how to complete the naturalization process from their military branches once they have served."

The rest of your comments are literal talking points, with little or no evidence to support. You see huge lines on TV (See fox news) that suddenly disappear after an election cycle is over.

Diseases. Really? Aside from the fact that Mexico and America being neighbors would at least share somewhat similar rates of vaccination for childhood diseases. Its interesting to note your concern over these so called diseases but if everyone in America would be vaccinated there wouldn't be an issue here would there? (See Measles).

America's success has literally been built on the backs of immigrants (Of which you and I are one likely descendants of unless you are native American).

This is just some examples of where I see problems in your thought process. There are more, but I am thinking that facts do not matter in this conversation. Its all about your perceived grievances.

I thank you for your service. As a fellow veteran, all I will say is as our benefits get cut (Yes this is a real possibility at this point) will you still be worried about what immigrants are doing or what this administration (See Bone Spurs) is doing to us?
As to your last, summary sentence - I will be worried about BOTH- illegal immigration and an out of control government. I did NOT know that Military veterans did NOT get the citizenship that they were promised. Sincerely, that is too bad. Maybe immigrants before about 1970 (when US population was around 275 million people) were fine. We need an A.I. study of what is the IDEAL (not maximum) population that the US should be. And the work toward that IDEAL population. Note - I doubt that it is over 300 million people.

[Stu from NYC]

That's all well and fine, but my tendency is to listen to my senior VP of wealth management at Merrill Lynch and not the "talking heads" on TV and the internet

You should have been listening to the financial advisers of Village of Stu. They have called every single market turn except for the ones they missed.

[Stu from NYC]

Of course, they audio record what is happening in your home. And, no, not just what questions have been asked of it. They're on all the time. Those crazy Alexa and Siri, etc. machines were likely developed for that purpose.

Even worse, most (or all) Smart TVs have cameras and are video recording the room they are in. They probably audio record too - not sure on that. My understanding is that you can disable the camera but, it has to be done at initial set-up when you buy it. If anyone knows more about that, please post details.

Does this mean when I cannot sleep and get up in the middle of the night to read, I need to put more clothes on?

[Boomer]

You should have been listening to the financial advisers of Village of Stu. They have called every single market turn except for the ones they missed.


This has to be the most meandering thread I have ever seen. All I did was suggest a couple of calmly presented, podcast episodes that some people might find interesting, in light of these interesting times. YMMV

But:

Mere bumpkin though I may be, I do know that it is not smart to try to do surgery with a chainsaw.

Boomer

[Pugchief]

I will likely come around to your other comments. But why are we going after those that are here legally? The did everything legally, went through the process was granted legal status and now, we send them out as if they are criminals. Explain.

Who is "going after" those that are here legally? Unless you are referring to the mass asylum groups of the last 4 years. Legality of that is debatable.

[JMintzer]

I will likely come around to your other comments. But why are we going after those that are here legally? The did everything legally, went through the process was granted legal status and now, we send them out as if they are criminals. Explain.

Care to provide examples of your claim?

[Bill14564]

Care to provide examples of your claim?

Immigration crackdown now hitting green card holders (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2025/03/22/immigration-crackdown-now-hitting-green-card-holders/)
Trump Cracks Down on Deportation, Targets Palestinian Activist Mahmoud Khalil | Republic World (https://www.republicworld.com/videos/global/trump-deportation-target-palestinian-activist-mahmoud-khalil-video)
Mohsen Mahdawi: Detained activist suspected immigration interview was trap (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy9vn84w27vo)

[Stu from NYC]

This has to be the most meandering thread I have ever seen. All I did was suggest a couple of calmly presented, podcast episodes that some people might find interesting, in light of these interesting times. YMMV

But:

Mere bumpkin though I may be, I do know that it is not smart to try to do surgery with a chainsaw.

Boomer

Think there have been more meandering threads than this.

[Pugchief]

Immigration crackdown now hitting green card holders (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2025/03/22/immigration-crackdown-now-hitting-green-card-holders/)
Trump Cracks Down on Deportation, Targets Palestinian Activist Mahmoud Khalil | Republic World (https://www.republicworld.com/videos/global/trump-deportation-target-palestinian-activist-mahmoud-khalil-video)
Mohsen Mahdawi: Detained activist suspected immigration interview was trap (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy9vn84w27vo)

Props to you for at least trying to document.
The first link appears to be a one-off.
The other two are on visas and are troublemaking activists. They are at here at the pleasure of the State Dept which has the unilateral choice to remove them. You may think they should be allowed to stay, but I don't. Visas are a privilege, not a right.

[Bill14564]

Props to you for at least trying to document.
The first link appears to be a one-off.
The other two are on visas and are troublemaking activists. They are at here at the pleasure of the State Dept which has the unilateral choice to remove them. You may think they should be allowed to stay, but I don't. Visas are a privilege, not a right.

One off in what way?

Troublemaking activists? Can you provide examples of that "troublemaking" that is not protected by the Constitution?

I believe everyone in this country is protected by our laws. Period.
I believe everyone in this country legally has all the rights guaranteed by our Constitution. Period.
Should these three be allowed to stay? That is not the question at all. The question is, have they violated the agreement that granted them legal status to stay? That is something that is determined in a court, NOT the way it has played out so far.

[Aces4]

One off in what way?

Troublemaking activists? Can you provide examples of that "troublemaking" that is not protected by the Constitution?

I believe everyone in this country is protected by our laws. Period.
I believe everyone in this country legally has all the rights guaranteed by our Constitution. Period.
Should these three be allowed to stay? That is not the question at all. The question is, have they violated the agreement that granted them legal status to stay? That is something that is determined in a court, NOT the way it has played out so far.

I'd call them insurgents. Intimidations, threats and harassment of a certain group of students is no accident. The insurgent's rights end where others rights begin and deportation is the solution.

[Bill14564]

I'd call them insurgents. Intimidations, threats and harassment of a certain group of students is no accident. The insurgent's rights end where others rights begin and deportation is the solution.

Problem is - at least one problem - that didn’t happen. Notably, the administration didn’t even make that claim.

[Topspinmo]

I agree with the last sentence. That definitely is a problem. Another problem is that every 4 or 8 years there may be a large change in emphasis on legal and ILLEGAL immigration. The US can't seem to make up its mind. personally I think that a country should do an A.I. analysis to determine what its OPTIMAL population should be and then determine what its LEGAL immigration should be, IF ANY.

No, some tend to ignore laws when it conveniently helps their situation.

[JMintzer]

Immigration crackdown now hitting green card holders (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2025/03/22/immigration-crackdown-now-hitting-green-card-holders/)
Trump Cracks Down on Deportation, Targets Palestinian Activist Mahmoud Khalil | Republic World (https://www.republicworld.com/videos/global/trump-deportation-target-palestinian-activist-mahmoud-khalil-video)
Mohsen Mahdawi: Detained activist suspected immigration interview was trap (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy9vn84w27vo)

Green Cards can be revoked at any time, for criminal activity...

[Bill14564]

Green Cards can be revoked at any time, for criminal activity...

Yes, but…
1. The ask was to show where they were going after LEGAL immigrants. Green card holders are LEGAL
2. There has been NO evidence, or even a claim, of illegal activity

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Yes, but…
1. The ask was to show where they were going after LEGAL immigrants. Green card holders are LEGAL
2. There has been NO evidence, or even a claim, of illegal activity

One should be very concerned right now:

We have laws, but what if they are ignored?
We have due process, but what if you can't get it?
What if the govt ships you off to a foreign prison before you get due process?

What if there is no longer innocent before proven guilty?
What if there is no longer any judicial system willing to uphold the process?
What if there are no more elections because they are suspended for war powers or other self serving autocratic reason?

this is the European version of corrupting a democracy for lifelong political power.
Read your European history, might be our destiny as well, cause human behavior will never change, just the actors change about every 60-80 years, especially if you don't read and learn history. .

good luck all, we definitely need it.

[jimjamuser]

One should be very concerned right now:

We have laws, but what if they are ignored?
We have due process, but what if you can't get it?
What if the govt ships you off to a foreign prison before you get due process?

What if there is no longer innocent before proven guilty?
What if there is no longer any judicial system willing to uphold the process?
What if there are no more elections because they are suspended for war powers or other self serving autocratic reason?

this is the European version of corrupting a democracy for lifelong political power.
Read your European history, might be our destiny as well, cause human behavior will never change, just the actors change about every 60-80 years, especially if you don't read and learn history. .

good luck all, we definitely need it.
Thank you. A GOOD post.

[Aces4]

One should be very concerned right now:

We have laws, but what if they are ignored?
We have due process, but what if you can't get it?
What if the govt ships you off to a foreign prison before you get due process?

What if there is no longer innocent before proven guilty?
What if there is no longer any judicial system willing to uphold the process?
What if there are no more elections because they are suspended for war powers or other self serving autocratic reason?

this is the European version of corrupting a democracy for lifelong political power.
Read your European history, might be our destiny as well, cause human behavior will never change, just the actors change about every 60-80 years, especially if you don't read and learn history. .

good luck all, we definitely need it.

What if the sun falls out of the sky and injures the pet cat?
What if the bridge fails over 441/27 and falls on the highway below?
What if....

Fear mongering serves no purpose and I only wish I would have posted all my fears 2 years ago.

[Aces4]

Problem is - at least one problem - that didn’t happen. Notably, the administration didn’t even make that claim.

It has happened and I wouldn't want to be of a certain faith on college campuses if something doesn't change.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

What if the sun falls out of the sky and injures the pet cat?
What if the bridge fails over 441/27 and falls on the highway below?
What if....

Fear mongering serves no purpose and I only wish I would have posted all my fears 2 years ago.

your examples are physical happenings, almost impossible to happen. my post is about human behaviors, if you can't see the difference, i can't help you. . .
And yes, it's already happened, so you must not be paying attention. .
And yes, there are pushes for more of these to happen. .

good luck

[Aces4]

your examples are physical happenings, almost impossible to happen. my post is about human behaviors, if you can't see the difference, i can't help you. . .
And yes, it's already happened, so you must not be paying attention. .
And yes, there are pushes for more of these to happen. .

good luck

That's okay, if you can't see the difference between suppositions and fear mongering, we're at a stalemate and I can't help you. I've been paying very close attention for the past few years and I know how things are controlled and manipulated and exaggerations manufactured.

But we both are entitled to our opinions and I'm going to go have some fun while the sun shines and I hope you do also.:icon_wink:

[Normal]

That's okay, if you can't see the difference between suppositions and fear mongering, we're at a stalemate and I can't help you. I've been paying very close attention for the past few years and I know how things are controlled and manipulated and exaggerations manufactured.

But we both are entitled to our opinions and I'm going to go have some fun while the sun shines and I hope you do also.:icon_wink:

If an immigrant hasn’t made his or her court hearing, they can automatically be apprehended and deported without any hearing. As in the case of Kilmar Abrego García, he entered into the United States without ever reporting and certainly surpassed any legally applicable hearing date in the 9 years he has lived here. Records show his US citizen wife once filed a protective order against him. It is doubtful he would ever win a case for asylum or US citizenship. Pregnant wife beating is frowned upon here.