AI on university campuses

[JohnN]

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

[Velvet]

If one uses AI to teach them, as a personalized tutor, then they should become a better student. If the student simply presents AI’s work as their own then they are in fact, learning nothing. The value of AI is in how one uses it. This should be taught in classes.

[tophcfa]

The new Pope has identified AI as one of the most critical challenges facing humanity.

[Rainger99]

From what I have seen, AI does a lot of things better than many humans. One of them is writing.

Would you rather have a lawyer write the closing argument or have AI write it?

Would you rather have your minister draft the sermon or have AI draft it?

I read that the average pastor reported spending 11 hours and 30 minutes in sermon preparation per week.

Unless the minister is a phenomenal writer (very few are) I think that the 11.5 hours could be better used doing something more useful. He could be counseling people, visiting the sick, etc.

I would prefer quality - whether it is written by a man or by AI.

[thelegges]

From what I have seen, AI does a lot of things better than many humans. One of them is writing.

Would you rather have a lawyer write the closing argument or have AI write it?

Would you rather have your minister draft the sermon or have AI draft it?

I read that the average pastor reported spending 11 hours and 30 minutes in sermon preparation per week.

Unless the minister is a phenomenal writer (very few are) I think that the 11.5 hours could be better used doing something more useful. He could be counseling people, visiting the sick, etc.

I would prefer quality - whether it is written by a man or by AI.

My spouse’s family has three Pastors.As young children (6-8yo) each would give sermons weekly to all the cousins gathered on the porch steps. All three after 40+ years have retired but continue to guest speak. After spending years visiting in their homes, a topic is picked for all three services.
Their sermons come together from visits with congregations, elderly, ill, and sometimes death. Not sitting for any amount of hours thinking up a sermon. All have said their words come from the spirit within, their notes guide them, not written speeches, but experiences. Each waking hour their sermons evolve with personal everyday life, slightly tweeting in their mind to reach as many of their flock. Inspiring it’s better to give then receive. Then thankful that God guided them to inspire and comfort those in need

Quoting “Sometimes I have that great topic I prayed on for Wednesday or Sunday Morning or Evening” then an hour before service an event happens and God tells me I need to prepare something more inspirational. More than once at a last minute have needed to step in for emergency sermon. With a few written notes, and guidance from sermons within.
For any family wedding there are no notes, just words from their heart, for guidance into their new life, and a slight hint of as a family we protect our own.

Personally knowing all three they listen to a higher calling for their inspiration, not facts and figures from AI.
Hopefully you can speak with your pastor to voice your concerns on the quality you think they should focus on. I am sure they will listen to your concerns, and take into account your thoughts on how they could improve with AI, instead of their heart.

I don’t see many clergymen thinking AI will inspire over God, but maybe you could convince them you read they wasted 11 hours, that should be put to prepare better quality, instead of inspirational

[opinionist]

AI is a great power assist.
Letting AI do all the work is lazy.

[Rainger99]

My spouse’s family has three Pastors.As young children (6-8yo) each would give sermons weekly to all the cousins gathered on the porch steps. All three after 40+ years have retired but continue to guest speak. After spending years visiting in their homes, a topic is picked for all three services.
Their sermons come together from visits with congregations, elderly, ill, and sometimes death. Not sitting for any amount of hours thinking up a sermon. All have said their words come from the spirit within, their notes guide them, not written speeches, but experiences. Each waking hour their sermons evolve with personal everyday life, slightly tweeting in their mind to reach as many of their flock. Inspiring it’s better to give then receive. Then thankful that God guided them to inspire and comfort those in need

Quoting “Sometimes I have that great topic I prayed on for Wednesday or Sunday Morning or Evening” then an hour before service an event happens and God tells me I need to prepare something more inspirational. More than once at a last minute have needed to step in for emergency sermon. With a few written notes, and guidance from sermons within.
For any family wedding there are no notes, just words from their heart, for guidance into their new life, and a slight hint of as a family we protect our own.

Personally knowing all three they listen to a higher calling for their inspiration, not facts and figures from AI.
Hopefully you can speak with your pastor to voice your concerns on the quality you think they should focus on. I am sure they will listen to your concerns, and take into account your thoughts on how they could improve with AI, instead of their heart.

I don’t see many clergymen thinking AI will inspire over God, but maybe you could convince them you read they wasted 11 hours, that should be put to prepare better quality, instead of inspirational

You say that the three pastors in your family give great sermons. Do you find that to be the case with other pastors or are any of them boring?

And you avoided the question about a lawyer using AI. Would you rather have a poorly written closing argument written by an attorney or a great closing argument written by AI?

How about teachers? I have to say that the vast majority of my high school or college teachers were not that great and many were pretty bad. If AI could do a better job would you go with AI or take the boring lecturer?

[Velvet]

I don’t see any problem with using AI as a tool, a tool for writing, a tool for information, even suggestions for creativity possibly etc and as a tool we need to learn to use to help us - it’s just new and some people seem worried about anything new or different. I’m not sure why the Pope is concerned, certainly not because AI will guide people away from the faith, it can’t do that. Perhaps because it could replace jobs computers can do and then people will be unemployed? Or that people can mistake a machine for a person because it seems to respond intelligently?

[Rainger99]

In my experience, about 90% of people think that they are in the top 10%. Therefore, they think that the other 90% might benefit from using AI but they would never use it because they are smarter than AI.

Years ago, I remember watching Ken Jennings play Watson in a jeopardy match. Before the match, Jennings said “I was pretty confident that I was going to win.”

Watson destroyed Jennings.

The final score was
Watson $77,147
Jennings $24,000

[spinner1001]

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment.

Writing is an act of thinking. Using AI for writing assignments is avoiding thinking, one of the hardest parts of learning. This professor gave these 11 students a second chance at the assignment without failing them and another opportunity to develop their ability of thinking. Good for her. (They did get a penalty for cheating.) And maybe these students learned from their experience of cheating on the professor's requirements.

In general, USA students are not taught how to think critically now. It starts in schools before university. Most schools largely teach students to take and pass exams.

But there is hope for giving students a real education. There is a small but growing movement trying to push students, parents, and schools back to giving students an education for critical thinking. It looks like a classical education that has been around for centuries but mostly fallen out of favor in the USA for multiple reasons.

For example:

Classic Learning Test (CLT) - Assessments for Grades 3-12 (https://www.cltexam.com) and

CLT in Florida | CLT (https://www.cltexam.com/clt-florida/)

[Remembergoldenrule]

I retired two years ago as an elementary teacher. My third and fourth grade students were using AI to write papers. The computer on the teacher side can actually tell you the percentage of the paper that is plagiarized and actually link the sources. Of course very easy to tell plagiarism in most cases as your daughter said because doesn’t match everyday interactions and the student can’t explain what they wrote means. I dread in 20 years trying to find a doctor or mechanic that can truly think through a problem.

[ronjon309]

Our daughter is also a university professor. We just talked about the same issue. She expressed frustration that 4 of her students would us AI when expressly told them they would receive a failing grade. When confronted 2 confessed. The other 2 tried to talk around it but eventually did confess.
How dumb can you be!

[RoadToad]

I would not expect the use of AI to, of it'self, to be cheating.
It's a tool. To not draw from it would be ignorant.
But to copy/paste for an assignment would be an outright fail.

[GpaVader]

AI is a great power assist.
Letting AI do all the work is lazy.

Not disagreeing, but they said the same thing about calculators...

[thelegges]

Both PHD Nephew and Niece have only taught at Private Universities. So far AI isn’t an issue.

That may be due to in depth knowledge prior in applying, one AI and you are expelled with no return.

[ehendersonjr]

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

The need for artificial intelligence is inversely proportional to the availability of natural intelligence.

[Indydealmaker]

AI has to be taught. The devil is in the details...who was the teacher and what checks and balances were used during the teaching process.

[Nell57]

Writing is an act of thinking. Using AI for writing assignments is avoiding thinking, one of the hardest parts of learning. This professor gave these 11 students a second chance at the assignment without failing them and another opportunity to develop their ability of thinking. Good for her. (They did get a penalty for cheating.) And maybe these students learned from their experience of cheating on the professor's requirements.

In general, USA students are not taught how to think critically now. It starts in schools before university. Most schools largely teach students to take and pass exams.




But there is hope for giving students a real education. There is a small but growing movement trying to push students, parents, and schools back to giving students an education for critical thinking. It looks like a classical education that has been around for centuries but mostly fallen out of favor in the USA for multiple reasons.

For example:

Classic Learning Test (CLT) - Assessments for Grades 3-12 (https://www.cltexam.com) and

CLT in Florida | CLT (https://www.cltexam.com/clt-florida/)

Here is another perspective.
I retired from teaching 2nd grade in ‘08.
Since 2000 we had been teaching critical thinking skills to our students.
We had a lecturer instruct us that…”these students will have 10 jobs in their lives. Five of them haven’t been invented yet.” The only teaching that mattered was inductive and deductive reasoning and technology.
I also had to teach these 7 year olds the three R’s. Reading Riting and Rithmatic.
So we did multilevel teaching, just as the kids learned on many levels.
AI is a great tool to have in the toolbelt. . Teachers and students will both learn how to best use it.
And I’m sure these students will also go on to have 10 jobs, five of which haven’t been invented yet.

[SHIBUMI]

Did you know the Pope gets 33,000$ a month in pay and has no expenses and no taxes. What would Jesus say?


The new Pope has identified AI as one of the most critical challenges facing humanity.

[SHIBUMI]

AI is no different than an open book test................as long as student is reading the material they are getting educated. There is no room for creativity but they still get knowledge and thats the bottom line.

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

[TeresaE]

From what I have seen, AI does a lot of things better than many humans. One of them is writing.

Would you rather have a lawyer write the closing argument or have AI write it?

Would you rather have your minister draft the sermon or have AI draft it?

I read that the average pastor reported spending 11 hours and 30 minutes in sermon preparation per week.

Unless the minister is a phenomenal writer (very few are) I think that the 11.5 hours could be better used doing something more useful. He could be counseling people, visiting the sick, etc.

I would prefer quality - whether it is written by a man or by AI.

That’s like saying it’s okay for students to just use a calculator for simple math, but that doesn’t teach them what the numbers actually mean. I want people who think and understand, not just regurgitate.

[Velvet]

Yes, but I used the calculator to teach my children in grade 3 multiplication. They made their calculation and then checked to see if they got it right. A calculator can be used just like a book, you can use it to learn and my students knew their multiplication (and as a result their division) tables orally up to 12 X 12 before they entered grade 4. Today I would teach them how to use AI.

Part of the motivation was teaching them the love of learning and the pride of achievement, not just to score on a test. Just like, I suppose a robot could be made which we could program to hit perfect hole in ones every time on the golf course - but it would not be as much fun as when we do it ourselves.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Here is another perspective.
I retired from teaching 2nd grade in ‘08.
Since 2000 we had been teaching critical thinking skills to our students.
We had a lecturer instruct us that…”these students will have 10 jobs in their lives. Five of them haven’t been invented yet.” The only teaching that mattered was inductive and deductive reasoning and technology.
I also had to teach these 7 year olds the three R’s. Reading Riting and Rithmatic.
So we did multilevel teaching, just as the kids learned on many levels.
AI is a great tool to have in the toolbelt. . Teachers and students will both learn how to best use it.
And I’m sure these students will also go on to have 10 jobs, five of which haven’t been invented yet.

An example of how AI is being abused by kids who are clever AND lazy enough to do so. Teacher gives students an assignment. "Read Act IV and Act V of Hamlet, and write two pages, single-spaced, analyzing the dynamic between Horatio and Claudius."

Kid types into the google AI buffer: "Give me two pages, single space, analyzing the dynamic between Horatio and Claudius in Hamlet's Act 4 and 5."

Presses the enter key.
3.5 seconds later, student gets exactly that, perfectly typed, spell- and grammar- checked.

Prints it out, hands it in, gets an A.

Never learns anything about Hamlet. But who cares? The assignment was to submit an analysis, and the teacher got an analysis.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes, but I used the calculator to teach my children in grade 3 multiplication. They made their calculation and then checked to see if they got it right. A calculator can be used just like a book, you can use it to learn and my students knew their multiplication (and as a result their division) tables orally up to 12 X 12 before they entered grade 4. Today I would teach them how to use AI.

We didn't have calculators. We had to learn the actual math. My mom wasn't good at math. My dad was VERY good at it. He's the one who taught me how to understand it. No calculator, none needed. I learned to add and subtract on an abacus, and with coin and paper currency as my tools.

Dad taught me the "trick" to memorizing the 9 table. 9 18 27 36 45 54 63 72 81 90 99 108 117 126 135 144 The right-most digits go 0 through 9, the digit next to them will go 9 through 0, the digit next to that one will go zero through nine, and so on into infinity. - and when you add each digit of the multiple up, and keep adding until there's only one digit, the answer is always 9. That's how you can check your math to see if you're correct. Example - 9*4782=43,038. 4+3+0+3+8=18, 1+8=9.

[Velvet]

We didn't have calculators. We had to learn the actual math.

Yes, we used slide rulers in engineering because calculators were not invented yet. And I remember a visiting student from India who had the sin and cosine tables in his head and could finish the equations before anyone else. We challenged each other, and had fun. The poor students who just tried to get by on tests etc never enjoyed learning and probably never enjoyed their work later either. I bet Sam Altman, and Elon Musk loved what they were doing, not just trying to get an A.

OBB, you sound like you had a brilliant father. I learned my love of math from my dad too.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes, we used slide rulers in engineering because calculators were not invented yet. And I remember a visiting student from India who had the sin and cosine tables in his head and could finish the equations before anyone else. We challenged each other, and had fun. The poor students who just tried to get by on tests etc never enjoyed learning and probably never enjoyed their work later either. I bet Sam Altman, and Elon Musk loved what they were doing, not just trying to get an A.

I never did well on tests, and never got past Algebra 1, even when we DID have calculators (they showed up when I got into High School). When we got those calculators, my dad would quiz me on the understanding of the math, to make sure I was actually learning the algebraic rules. I didn't learn them. I could plug the info into the calculator and it'd spit out the answer, but I never did learn HOW it worked. I could never apply it.
UNTIL I learned to code. It wasn't until then, that it finally made sense. And that was all done using physical templates, like this one: Univac Remington Rand Flowcharting Template | National Museum of American History (https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_690228)

The visual application of algorithmic expression was the only way I was able to learn it. A calculator spitting out the answer taught me nothing, ever.

[Sandabern]

No offense to your daughter, but the actual number was probably closer to 46… And that’s a low estimate… Kids use AI like they drink water…
I don’t know whether it’s good or bad, but it’s a little similar to when math teachers let us (or didn’t let us) use calculators…

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

[Velvet]

Yes, because of how you, OBB, used it. I taught my students how to calculate the answer and the only thing the calculator was used for was to check if their answer was correct. In grades one and two, addition and subtraction can be taught the same way (with beautiful large kindergarten calculators). However, I have to admit that in later grades I never memorized, say the logarithmic tables.

I think what you say is interesting. I taught many children successfully, but I could not get my own daughter to learn. She was simply not interested. In grades 10 she was still working at grade 3 math level. But, then, she got a job later where she needed to apply higher math skills. She loved her work and was determined to do it. She hired her own private tutor and went through each year of math she missed so that she could do her job. Finally, she had the motivation.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes, because of how you, OBB, used it. I taught my students how to calculate the answer and the only thing the calculator was used for was to check if their answer was correct. In grades one and two, addition and subtraction can be taught the same way (with beautiful large kindergarten calculators). However, I have to admit that in later grades I never memorized, say the logarithmic tables.

I think what you say is interesting. I taught many children successfully, but I could not get my own daughter to learn. She was simply not interested. In grades 10 she was still working at grade 3 math level. But, then, she got a job later where she needed to apply higher math skills. She loved her work and was determined to do it. She hired her own private tutor and went through each year of math she missed so that she could do her job. Finally, she had the motivation.

It's a matter of brain wiring. Some people (such as myself) are visual and verbal thinkers. Numeric concepts don't really mean anything to us. We need to see those concepts applied to something tangible, or it goes right over our heads. Now, years later thanks to my dad and my computer programming class, I can spit out percentages without really thinking about them much at all. You give me a bunch of numbers, and I can figure out an approximate average within a few seconds, no calculator, pen or paper needed. I won't always be spot-on but I'll be pretty close to correct. I can now do it in my head. It is a visual process in my head. I imagine the numbers, I imagine writing it on paper, I imagine doing the "long math" and "long division." But it happens instantly. Because I learned the MEANING of the numbers, how they fit into the universe and their significance.

It's why, to me, kids who can't count change back should sue their teachers and their parents for not teaching them. If the total at check-out is $14.29 and you pull out a $20 bill and they plug in $20 on their cash register and open the drawer - then you say "oh wait I have four pennies!" they have no idea what they're supposed to do with that information. Their cash register has already instructed them to give them $5.71, and they've already pulled out the change (yes, I did that in my head too). You tell them you wanted quarters, not dimes. And that confuses them even more. So you have to tell them:

Subtract 4 from $14.29, since I just gave you the 4 pennies. That makes it $14.25. I give you a $20. Give me 3 quarters to make $15, and then another $5 to make $20. I mean HOW HARD IS THIS?

It's hard for them because they were never taught how to COUNT. Simple math, simple addition and subtraction. They have absolutely no idea how to do it. You can thank calculators for that.

[Velvet]

It's a matter of brain wiring.

It's hard for them because they were never taught how to COUNT. Simple math, simple addition and subtraction. They have absolutely no idea how to do it. You can thank calculators for that.

Yes, they were taught to use the calculator as a crutch not as a reference item. My young students could do that too, but there was no pride or fun in doing it. Many games, chess, poker etc are built on math. People enjoy using their skills if you encourage it. And that is what I tried to do.

When it came to money, I asked the parents to give a small allowance to each one of my grade one child, so they could go to the store and buy gum, ice cream whatever. The students learned how much they could afford, to budget and to make change. We practiced with play money in the class.

[Dilligas]

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms
"Our generation would not even think to do this".....my wife as a major university professor and dean (1970-2012) found students plagiarizing every year. When the computers and internet became of use the faculty had programs that would find plagiarism.....so this is not new, only easier to do.

[rsmurano]

A lot of people took a tangent on this. It doesn’t matter if a pastor or an employee uses ai, no student should use ai to do anything but to help them learn. If you let ai write a paper, 100% of the students won’t learn squat. Once the student actually learns their trade in school, then if they use AI in their job, they can proof read what ai wrote to see if it makes sense to pass it out. All ai output should be evaluated before using it.

Nowadays, all the colleges are dumbing down their criteria so everybody advances, which produces not so bright graduates. Some schools/states have made it a rule not to give students tests because they don’t want anybody to fail.

[Pixelpups]

Remember when we transitioned from landlines to cell phones. At first there were dropped calls, then improved performance… but I can tell you that cell phones still cannot match the reliability of landlines. AI is here to help, but it too has screw ups; programmers are calling them “dreams.”

Doctors are using it to write their notes on patient exams. They can see more patients in a day because of it. Yet, I think a connection to the patient is lost - I always remember better when I have to write/type the information down. I’ve even changed my thinking, in the process of writing it down.

AI is a tool and used properly - an aid and used improperly - a potential accident. (Scammers, of course, use it as a weapon. Phishing emails are getting really hard to spot by bad spelling and grammar!)

[Velvet]

A lot of people took a tangent on this. It doesn’t matter if a pastor or an employee uses ai, no student should use ai to do anything but to help them learn. If you let ai write a paper, 100% of the students won’t learn squat. Once the student actually learns their trade in school, then if they use AI in their job, they can proof read what ai wrote to see if it makes sense to pass it out. All ai output should be evaluated before using it.

Nowadays, all the colleges are dumbing down their criteria so everybody advances, which produces not so bright graduates. Some schools/states have made it a rule not to give students tests because they don’t want anybody to fail.

Yes this is when “education” becomes meaningless. When anyone can pass…at my university the engineers passed a horse to get his degree. They write every test for him over the years and brought him on stage to accept his certificate. After that you had to id yourself to write an exam. This was way before AI, before computers, before calculators.

When higher education becomes an institution where 50% of the population can pass to get a degree, why bother? Just buy the certificate on line. Cheaper for everyone involved and just as valuable.

[SoCalGal]

Did you know the Pope gets 33,000$ a month in pay and has no expenses and no taxes. What would Jesus say?

I don't know what Jesus would say but GrokAI said:

False. The claim that the Pope receives $33,000 a month in pay with no expenses and no taxes is not accurate, based on available information. Here’s a breakdown:

Salary: Historically, popes do not receive a traditional salary. Pope Francis, for instance, explicitly declined any personal salary, and his expenses were covered by the Vatican. However, some sources suggest that Pope Leo XIV, the first American pope, may receive a monthly stipend of approximately $33,800 (or €2,500–€3,000 in some reports). This figure is not universally confirmed, and previous popes, like Francis, often donated such funds to charity or declined them entirely. The claim of a fixed $33,000 monthly salary is therefore uncertain and likely overstated for most popes.

Expenses: The Vatican covers the pope’s living expenses, including housing, food, travel, and security. This means the pope does not personally pay for these necessities, which aligns with the claim of “no expenses.” However, the pope may have personal expenses (e.g., charitable donations or minor personal items) that could come from a stipend, if accepted.

Taxes: The claim of “no taxes” is more complex. Vatican City does not impose income taxes on its employees, including the pope, so any stipend received would be tax-free in the Vatican. However, for Pope Leo XIV, a U.S. citizen, U.S. tax law requires citizens living abroad to file tax returns, potentially taxing income earned from working for a foreign government (like the Vatican). While certain exemptions (e.g., foreign earned income exclusion) or the unique nature of the pope’s role might reduce or eliminate tax liability, it’s not accurate to flatly state “no taxes” without considering U.S. obligations. The IRS may issue specific guidance for Leo XIV’s unprecedented situation.

In summary, the statement is false because:

The $33,000 monthly salary is not consistently verified across sources and does not apply to all popes (e.g., Francis declined it).

While the Vatican covers most expenses, personal expenses may still exist.

The “no taxes” claim overlooks potential U.S. tax obligations for an American pope like Leo XIV.

The situation is nuanced, and definitive claims about salary and taxes depend on the specific pope and their citizenship. Always cross-check such claims, as media reports can sensationalize or misrepresent Vatican finances.

[SoCalGal]

We didn't have calculators. We had to learn the actual math.

Geez, how old are you? <teasing>

[Rainger99]

Did you know the Pope gets 33,000$ a month in pay and has no expenses and no taxes. What would Jesus say?

Please provide some documentation for the statement. It does not appear to be true!

[Rainger99]

Did you know the Pope gets 33,000$ a month in pay and has no expenses and no taxes. What would Jesus say?

You are confusing the Pope with the President.

The US President receives a monthly salary of $33,333.33 (based on the $400,000 annual salary)

[spinner1001]

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

Imagine paying $100,000 per year and cheating your way through.

[Velvet]

Imagine paying $100,000 per year and cheating your way through.

This is why term papers are a good idea - at least the student has an idea what the assignment is - but all test for marks should be oral, just like they used to be.

[Rainger99]

but all test for marks should be oral, just like they used to be.

Where did you go to school? I think every test I took from kindergarten through college was written with the possibility of a few extra points for class participation.

[Velvet]

Where did you go to school? I think every test I took from kindergarten through college was written with the possibility of a few extra points for class participation.

Not the way it was done in my parent’s time. In European schools most significant tests and examinations were oral. Time to consider that here. Hard to pretend to know something when you actually don’t in front of the examiner. My PhD defense was oral here.

My impression is that we don’t need to use schools as babysitters for high school and college aged students who don’t want to learn anything. Who resort to cheating in order to pass.They could be out working and beginning a life for themselves. It really starts with grade one, when the education policy is to place every child into grade two next year, they have not passed grade one, they have just gotten a year older. And there is no reason for it to be called “grade two” when all it is - is a collection of 7 year olds - just like in the playground.

[Rainger99]

Not the way it was done in my parent’s time.

That would be very time consuming. Some of my college classes had more than 100 students in them.

[Velvet]

That would be very time consuming. Some of my college classes had more than 100 students in them.

Yes, and educational. First of all, we don’t need so many incompetent and uninterested students in classes. It is everybody’s waste of time and money.

There seems to be way too many students these days in classes who can’t do the work and of course they resort to cheating to pass (using AI, plagiarizing, stealing exams etc) - they have to. The problem is that they should not be there in the first place. It’s like asking a blind person to become a skeet shooter. So, yes, these students have a lot of mental anxiety, depression, mental health problems - more is expected of them than what they are able to do. The stress must be very high. If they are just lazy and uninterested they should not be there either. Some people’s answer is to dumb down the curriculum until it is meaningless, my answer is only the capable and interested students should be there.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes, and educational. First of all, we don’t need so many incompetent and uninterested students in classes. It is everybody’s waste of time and money.

There seems to be way too many students these days in classes who can’t do the work and of course they resort to cheating to pass (using AI, plagiarizing, stealing exams etc) - they have to. The problem is that they should not be there in the first place. It’s like asking a blind person to become a skeet shooter. So, yes, these students have a lot of mental anxiety, depression, mental health problems - more is expected of them than what they are able to do. The stress must be very high. If they are just lazy and uninterested they should not be there either. Some people’s answer is to dumb down the curriculum until it is meaningless, my answer is only the capable and interested students should be there.

Not everyone is interested in every subject, but most people are good in the thing they're most interested in. I was horrible with mathematics and history. Memorizing numbers has always been difficult for me, and that includes dates. But I wanted to be a journalist; a writer. I was able to squeeze by with my math and history requirements to get into college and excelled at "all things verbal."

You are suggesting that I shouldn't have been allowed to go to college at all because it was a waste of time, I was lazy and uninterested, or that I must of course have been cheating, or that I suffered a mental illness.

None of the above is true. I just suck at math. There's no shame in that. But I was required to take a math class in college if I wanted to get my degree. So I took probability/statistics, since I never took Algebra II, Calculus, or Trigonohowever it's spelled, and learning the odds of a dice game seemed infinitely more interesting than signing and co-signing with numbers instead of your signature (that's a joke, but that's seriously the extent of my knowledge of anything beyond basic algebra).

I also loathed memorizing dates and matching them with events. I'm not good at it. But I was required to take Western Civilization if I wanted my degree. So I took it. I barely passed. It was a huge class with around 300 students at 8 in the morning for 3 hours twice a week. I usually taped it and napped with the tape recorder on my lap, and fast-forwarded to the interesting parts the week before exams. I didn't cheat, because I didn't care enough about the grade. As long as I got a C- or better I was happy.

I aced every single English, writing, grammar, and literature class I've taken ever since 4th grade. That's my forte, and that's what I got my double-major in. With honors. Without AI.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/15/grok-white-genocide-elon-musk.html)

not surprising how AI can be abused and used for manipulation. .

generally i don't use it, unless looking for programming code, as code is pretty standard to check if it works or not. .
everything else,

nah!

[Velvet]

Yes, I don’t believe in force feeding students past high school education. However, for example, if you need math, eg. statistics, for psychology and you are really interested in say, becoming a clinical psychologist, as a student you either bite the bullet and learn the math so that you can do the lab analysis required in psych courses, or find a different major to study. If the student is interested enough they will work on all the courses necessary to get their qualification.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes, I don’t believe in force feeding students past high school education. However, for example, if you need math, eg. statistics, for psychology and you are really interested in say, becoming a clinical psychologist, as a student you either bite the bullet and learn the math so that you can do the lab analysis required in psych courses, or find a different major to study. If the student is interested enough they will work on all the courses necessary to get their qualification.

I don't know how it is now, but when I went to college in the late 1970's-early 1980's there was a thing called "all-college requirements." If you wanted a 4-year degree in anything at all, you were required to take and pass certain courses. English 101 was a minimum (I had to petition the Dean to be placed in advanced English. The E101 professor was upset that I corrected her correction of my very first paper for the class. She criticized the content instead of the quality, and the assignment was to write about my topic of choice.) I was required to take at least one math class and one civics/sociology class, and I was required to take a history course and Senior Seminar. For civics/sociology I took a class on deciphering state general statutes. Pre-law stuff.

Almost all of the rest of my four years consisted of creative writing, prose and poetry, oration, classic literature, Chaucer and advanced Shakespeare, and a ton of journalism classes including court reporting (fascinating, final paper covered a homicide case). Everything else was electives so I filled them up with things like ASL and psychology.

Another requirement was that I had at least one full year of a foreign language in High School, or that I take at least one semester of it in college. I'd taken a couple years of Spanish in high school so I was exempt from having to take it in college.

I didn't have to do well in any of these "all-college requirement" except English because that was my major. But I did have to pass them all, and not be on academic probation more than one semester out of the four years.

[Velvet]

At this time different universities, up to a point, have different requirements towards degrees. Also to get credit at an ivy university you have to get an A or above in an accepted equivalent course at another university. Transfer credits are difficult. I believe there is a plan to re-examine them now. Husband was registrar at an ivy.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

At this time different universities up to a point, have different requirements towards degrees. Also to get credit at an ivy university you have to get an A or above in an accepted equivalent course at another university. Transfer credits are difficult. I believe there is a plan to re-examine them now. Husband was registrar at an ivy.

This wasn't toward any specific degree. It didn't matter what degree you were persuing. If you wanted that B.S. on your graduation certificate, you had to take a minimum of 1 math, 1 civics/sociology, 1 history, and Senior Seminar, plus the foreign language requirement which could be fulfilled if you'd taken a year or more in high school.

If your degree was in phys ed, you had to take those above minimum courses. If your degree was English Literature, you had to take those above minimum courses. These minimums didn't have to have anything at all to do with your major or minor. You had to take them anyway, and pass them.

[Velvet]

Sounds like classic liberal education.

[spinner1001]

Now students complaining about professors using AI.

[Rainger99]

Now students complaining about professors using AI.


I read The NY Times article.

The professors said they used A.I. as a tool to provide a better education.

They claimed that chatbots
1. saved time,
2. helped them with overwhelming workloads and
3. served as automated teaching assistants.

I think the first two would also apply to students.

[spinner1001]

I read The NY Times article.

The professors said they used A.I. as a tool to provide a better education.

They claimed that chatbots
1. saved time,
2. helped them with overwhelming workloads and
3. served as automated teaching assistants.

I think the first two would also apply to students.

In general, university students are not prohibited from using AI—-just for certain assignments a professor specifies, which is part of the learning process. Universities are places of learning.

Too many people have misinterpreted all of this as universities are preventing students from using AI for anything. They are not.

[BigSteph]

In general, university students are not prohibited from using AI—-just for certain assignments a professor specifies, which is part of the learning process. Universities are places of learning.

Too many people have misinterpreted all of this as universities are preventing students from using AI for anything. They are not.


I am an Adjunct Professor at a local college. I can tell that many of my students use AI.

I have each student write about themselves and what they expect to learn in my classes during the first week of classes.

I teach online, so I never meet them face to face, but I do read their first assignments and I find that they write several levels above their initial writing during assignments.

I can often see that it is not in their voice or with their given vocabulary.

The issue is, how do you prove any of it.

There is a new paradigm being consider with AI. It is not unlike the use of a calculator in a math class when we were younger. Does the calculator act as a cheat or an enhancer.

For non-mathematical and non-science students, there has been argument that calculators provide marginal students a way to navigate mathematical exercises and produce an acceptable result.

I don’t have an opinion, yet, on the use of AI. Is it the modern calculator or is it just a quick cheat? Like I said, I’m still evaluating….

[Topspinmo]

Similar to using book someone wrote on subject, easier and quicker getting off web than going to library finding the book then reading it? then, using words from book? Either way if about memorization.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Sounds like classic liberal education.

It was a liberal arts school, yes. Emerson College, founded by Charles W. Emerson as a school of oratory for boys in Back Bay, Boston. Went through a few different incarnations, as a girl's school for a short period, and eventually ended up co-ed. Communications Studies and dramatic and multi-media arts are its main components.

Norman Lear, Jennifer Coolidge, Henry Winkler were all students there. Denis Leary graduated the year before I did and taught one of my creative writing classes for one semester before he headed off to become famous. Mario Cantone (the guy who played Anthony Mariantino in Sex and the City) and I were "wall buddies." We hung out together at "the Wall" between classes. It was literally a 3-foot wall in front of 96-98 Beacon Street, the school's headquarters.

And we all had to learn the same "all-college" requirements if we wanted to graduate. We didn't have AI, there were no TI-83 or TI-84 calculators or any other graphing calculators at the time, they hadn't been invented yet. Neither were laptops, tablets, public internet, or smartphones. If we needed to look something up we'd go to the library and use the dewey decimal system file wall to find a book we thought would help us. Or we'd look for something on the microfiche.

We were taught critical thinking skills. How to ask the right questions, to understand what we were dealing with from one moment to the next. We were taught spacial awareness. You couldn't go to Store24 at 3 in the morning during midterm week by yourself, without having an acute sense of spacial awareness (and a kubotan, and memorizing a Shakespeare sililoquy and not being afraid to recite it LOUDLY to make your assailant think you were insane and leave you alone).

[Rainger99]

I was at a museum in Europe the other day.

The vast majority of the descriptions of the exhibits were in Spanish. As I was leaving I told the receptionist that the museum was interesting but that it would be much better if the descriptions were also in English. She said that they were working on it but that they didn’t have the staff.

With AI, a person could take a photo of the Spanish description and the exhibit would be instantly translated to English - saving time and money.

Should the museum use AI and save money or should they hire someone to translate manually?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I was at a museum in Europe the other day.

The vast majority of the descriptions of the exhibits were in Spanish. As I was leaving I told the receptionist that the museum was interesting but that it would be much better if the descriptions were also in English. She said that they were working on it but that they didn’t have the staff.

With AI, a person could take a photo of the Spanish description and the exhibit would be instantly translated to English - saving time and money.

Should the museum use AI and save money or should they hire someone to translate manually?

You don't need AI for that. You just need Lens, if you have an android phone, I'm sure there's one for apples. Or, next time you go to a country where Spanish is the primary language spoken, make sure you've learned at least a passing conversational Spanish before you pack your bags for the trip.

[Topspinmo]

Just enroll in online college and do all the AI you want. Who’s going to know and who’s checking? All care about the money. :22yikes:

[Velvet]

You had an education in more than one sense then, OBB. I hope you had a good time - it sounds like you enjoyed it. But you could have still cheated if you wanted to. We did. First year engineering at my university was a culling process. There were classes, including labs, from 9:00 to 5:00 every day. One hour for lunch. Then homework assignments in physics, electricity, chemistry, applied math, drafting etc every day, each subject taking a good 2 hours or more to complete. To be taken up the next day. In order to complete them all you either had to be a genius or “cheat”.

Three or four of us would get together after classes and one would do the physics assignment and we’d copy it with slight differences, one would do the drafting, that was harder to copy etc. This was the only way we could possibly complete all the assigned work in time. And the professors had to know it.

[Velvet]

Nice article in today’s WSJ:

“AI has exposed a decline in higher education that has been under way for decades. Colleges increasingly focus on job training and credentials rather than intellectual growth for its own sake. Choose-your-own curricula, runaway grade inflation, and the popular notion of the four-year party are symptoms of the same problem. Students have no qualms about cheating, because as far as many of them can tell, college isn’t about learning anyway.

Education is meant to liberate us from bias and ignorance. By hindering the development of students’ critical faculties, AI is setting up future generations for the opposite. Technology has its place in higher education, but not at the expense of learning. Real students deserve a real education.”

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Nice article in today’s WSJ:

“AI has exposed a decline in higher education that has been under way for decades. Colleges increasingly focus on job training and credentials rather than intellectual growth for its own sake. Choose-your-own curricula, runaway grade inflation, and the popular notion of the four-year party are symptoms of the same problem. Students have no qualms about cheating, because as far as many of them can tell, college isn’t about learning anyway.

Education is meant to liberate us from bias and ignorance. By hindering the development of students’ critical faculties, AI is setting up future generations for the opposite. Technology has its place in higher education, but not at the expense of learning. Real students deserve a real education.”

Real students would demand a real education.

Do you want someone performing an open-heart surgery on you, if you knew that their degree was courtesy of AI and they really didn't understand anatomy/physiology?

[Rainger99]

Real students would demand a real education.

Do you want someone performing an open-heart surgery on you, if you knew that their degree was courtesy of AI and they really didn't understand anatomy/physiology?

AI robots are performing surgery today.

AI-powered robots can autonomously tie sutures and knots, a task that requires precision and dexterity, according to The American College of Surgeons.