So you think the USA is ready for EV's ?

[BrianL99]

We often hear the naysayers claim the USA Electric Grid can't support a major conversion to EV's.

& many think that's a load of baloney.

We're converting a 200 Room Hotel, with 20,000 sq ft of event space, to a 300 unit Condominium. It's locate on a major US Interstate, in a sophisticated, wealthy suburb of Boston, less than 20 miles outside the city.

The electric grid/distribution system can't supply sufficient electricity to the site, without a infrastructure upgrade to the property line. They sent us the cost estimate on Friday.

$21,129,000. $70,000/unit. Total cost to provide electrical service, so each unit can run some lights & a toaster, is over $100,000.

[CFrance]

How much would you have to price each unit at to make a profit and cover these costs?

[Bill14564]

Without the details it's difficult to know what work is being done but in general, infrastructure is expensive.

What would have been the cost to run a larger water line or larger sewer line to the property? What about a larger access road to handle the additional traffic? You chose electricity but expansion of any of those would have come with a cost too.

Is the USA ready for EVs? One estimate said there are 10 million on the road today. Either the USA is ready for 10M EVs or there are 10M customers with very heavy, immovable statues in their garages.

Is the US infrastructure robust enough today to support thousands more EV charging stations? Probably not. Will it ever be? Yes, but when that will be and what it will look like is unknown. Who knows how many EVs can the US support with its current infrastructure? We may find out soon.

[New Englander]

We often hear the naysayers claim the USA Electric Grid can't support a major conversion to EV's.

& many think that's a load of baloney.

We're converting a 200 Room Hotel, with 20,000 sq ft of event space, to a 300 unit Condominium. It's locate on a major US Interstate, in a sophisticated, wealthy suburb of Boston, less than 20 miles outside the city.

NationalGrid 's distribution system can't supply sufficient electricity to the site, without a infrastructure upgrade to the property line. They sent us the cost estimate on Friday.

$21,129,000. $70,000/unit. Total cost to provide electrical service, so each unit can run some lights & a toaster, is over $100,000.

I'm from Boston. Just curious what town this Condo project will be located?

[Aces4]

Without the details it's difficult to know what work is being done but in general, infrastructure is expensive.

What would have been the cost to run a larger water line or larger sewer line to the property? What about a larger access road to handle the additional traffic? You chose electricity but expansion of any of those would have come with a cost too.

Is the USA ready for EVs? One estimate said there are 10 million on the road today. Either the USA is ready for 10M EVs or there are 10M customers with very heavy, immovable statues in their garages.

Is the US infrastructure robust enough today to support thousands more EV charging stations? Probably not. Will it ever be? Yes, but when that will be and what it will look like is unknown. Who knows how many EVs can the US support with its current infrastructure? We may find out soon.

I don't know that the US will ever have the electricity or infrastructure such as charging stations, enough for the nation. I also don't think that level is necessary and believe a blend of both type vehicles would be best. We strictly drive gas powered vehicles at this point but wouldn't rule out one electric vehicle and one ice vehicle for our household in our younger days. Given our ages, it probably will be more of a decision for the next generations to make since we need reliability. I'm totally against mandating electrical vehicles for everyone since they bring their own bucket of problems and aren't green energy clean either.

[BrianL99]

How much would you have to price each unit at to make a profit and cover these costs?

The condos are projected to be in the $500,000 range. We're estimating that our "contribution" to the electrical infrastructure will be in the $5M range or about $20,000/unit.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I changed out my 20 year old AC and cut my bill in summertime in half.
All my neighbors still have their original units.
Think of the pressure it will take off the "grid" when everyone has ultra efficient units.
Plenty of room for cars

[BrianL99]

I changed out my 20 year old AC and cut my bill in summertime in half.
All my neighbors still have their original units.
Think of the pressure it will take off the "grid" when everyone has ultra efficient units.
Plenty of room for cars

I think saving the world, one Air Conditioner at a time, is a great start. Try to get your neighbors on the program, in case someone in the neighborhood buys an EV. I think the ratio is about 3 AC's to 1 EV.

[Caymus]

I changed out my 20 year old AC and cut my bill in summertime in half.
All my neighbors still have their original units.
Think of the pressure it will take off the "grid" when everyone has ultra efficient units.
Plenty of room for cars

Electrical demand is actually increasing after being stagnant for a decade. AI data centers are a big factor. Changing AC's won't help much.

[jbartle1]

Ahhh but, the immigrants cleaning those rooms is in short supply!

[Michael G.]

Whatever comes for EV's in the future I can't predict.
What surprises me is people paying $80.000 + for their EV and thinking their saving the planet.

[Bill14564]

I don't know that the US will ever have the electricity or infrastructure such as charging stations, enough for the nation. I also don't think that level is necessary and believe a blend of both type vehicles would be best. We strictly drive gas powered vehicles at this point but wouldn't rule out one electric vehicle and one ice vehicle for our household in our younger days. Given our ages, it probably will be more of a decision for the next generations to make since we need reliability. I'm totally against mandating electrical vehicles for everyone since they bring their own bucket of problems and aren't green energy clean either.

Most EVs are cleaner than most ICE vehicles. Whether that matters is a personal decision.

I wish an EV had been a valid option when I was commuting to workplaces, it would have saved me a lot of money. As it was, we really benefited from the Prius hybrid. Today, we take long driving trips that would be difficult in an EV.

Long distance power transmission over fixed infrastructure is what hurts us today. In order to move more power the infrastructure needs to be improved and that becomes prohibitively expensive. We would have the same problem if we had to move gasoline to the stations via pipelines; it would greatly limit when and where we could build new stations, new cities, and new roads.

What we don’t have today is a means of delivering power any other way, either it’s on a wire from an existing power plant or it doesn’t happen. What we’ll need is a more efficient delivery system or more local power plants. Then we can start building EV charging stations as easily as we build ICE fueling stations. I’ve not kept up with any advances in those areas.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Electrical demand is actually increasing after being stagnant for a decade. AI data centers are a big factor. Changing AC's won't help much.
Well then, I guess EV's aren't the problem

[Aces4]

Most EVs are cleaner than most ICE vehicles. Whether that matters is a personal decision.

I wish an EV had been a valid option when I was commuting to workplaces, it would have saved me a lot of money. As it was, we really benefited from the Prius hybrid. Today, we take long driving trips that would be difficult in an EV.

Long distance power transmission over fixed infrastructure is what hurts us today. In order to move more power the infrastructure needs to be improved and that becomes prohibitively expensive. We would have the same problem if we had to move gasoline to the stations via pipelines; it would greatly limit when and where we could build new stations, new cities, and new roads.

What we don’t have today is a means of delivering power any other way, either it’s on a wire from an existing power plant or it doesn’t happen. What we’ll need is a more efficient delivery system or more local power plants. Then we can start building EV charging stations as easily as we build UVE fueling stations. I’ve not kept up with any advances in those areas.

And none of this even begins to address the process of producing electricity. We all don't live next to Hoover Dam. We can't cover all vacant ground with solar panels which may be damaged in storms not to mention the cost of charging stations. There is a much larger picture that has never been addressed as to how, where and when will such massive electricity be available.

[Topspinmo]

Really too early to tell. If you google “ are EV’s cleaner than ICE vehicles” plenty of theory’s in long run it may or may not be better? IMO it really doesn’t matter to us over 70 we will be long gone before electric vehicles will be norm. Or something else comes along better?

[Topspinmo]

And none of this even begins to address the process of producing electricity. We all don't live next to Hoover Dam. We can't cover all vacant ground with solar panels which may be damaged in storms not to mention the cost of charging stations. There is a much larger picture that has never been addressed as to how, where and when will such massive electricity be available.

But, but, I got outlet and it magically produced electricity? So far……

[CarlR33]

Not sure what this had to do with EV’s but you might create a bond for the condo’s and pass it on, just saying.

[Stu from NYC]

Whatever comes for EV's in the future I can't predict.
What surprises me is people paying $80.000 + for their EV and thinking their saving the planet.

Still have that darn rare earth problem.

[BrianL99]

And none of this even begins to address the process of producing electricity. We all don't live next to Hoover Dam. We can't cover all vacant ground with solar panels which may be damaged in storms not to mention the cost of charging stations. There is a much larger picture that has never been addressed as to how, where and when will such massive electricity be available.

The frustrating part for me, the road to the production of inexpensive electricity has been available for many years .... nuclear. France generates 70% of their electricity, using nuclear power.

[BrianL99]

Not sure what this had to do with EV’s but you might create a bond for the condo’s and pass it on, just saying.

Most of the world doesn't operate like The Villages.

[Stu from NYC]

The frustrating part for me, the road to the production of inexpensive electricity has been available for many years .... nuclear. France generates 70% of their electricity, using nuclear power.

We should be doing much more nuclear power generation

[fdpaq0580]

Solar, wind electricity generators for every structure (homes, businesses, government facilities) would take most of the load off the "grid" and could possibly even eliminate a need for centralized generation facilities. Would virtually eliminate effective terrorist attacks on centralized generators and distribution systems. Of course those who control power would fight it.
As for personal transportation an advanced hybrid system, which uses a gas or diesel/electric system where the ev powers the vehicle, and the gas or diesel engine keeps the electricity storage topped up as it is used. Also, other types of engines are being developed as we discuss gas vs electric. Changes are coming faster all the time. Time for converting H2O in your tank into hydrogen to power your vehicle, and oxygen to add to the air around you. It already exists.
Electric vehicles have been around for decades, just like gas. Just needed better batteries. Debating ice vs ev is debating the better option of old technology. Time to look forward to a better, cheaper, safer, more practical technologies, many which are currently available, and others already in testing.

[biker1]

I’ve seen some calculations on this. Essentially, if all autos in the US were replaced with EVs right now, then we would be shy about 1000 TWhs (per year). This is about 25% of the current US electricity production, which has been flat for about a decade. Since the process of replacing ICE autos with EVs will take many decades, we have that long to ramp up production and distribution of electricity by 25% over today’s levels. Smart charging strategies, such as incenting people to charge at night when demand is low, may modify this figure. There are only about 2.4 million EVs in the US out of almost 300 million autos.


We often hear the naysayers claim the USA Electric Grid can't support a major conversion to EV's.

& many think that's a load of baloney.

We're converting a 200 Room Hotel, with 20,000 sq ft of event space, to a 300 unit Condominium. It's locate on a major US Interstate, in a sophisticated, wealthy suburb of Boston, less than 20 miles outside the city.

The electric grid/distribution system can't supply sufficient electricity to the site, without a infrastructure upgrade to the property line. They sent us the cost estimate on Friday.

$21,129,000. $70,000/unit. Total cost to provide electrical service, so each unit can run some lights & a toaster, is over $100,000.

[Berwin]

I worked in the office that managed the .GOV Internet domain back in the mid-to-late nineties. Common knowledge back then was there wasn't enough bandwidth to handle the load of PKI authentication for websites and probably never would be. Today, there are orders of magnitude more websites and 99% of them use PKI for secure connections, including this one (see the https:\\ when you click in the address bar?).

[Rocksnap]

Never mind the electrical grid to charge cars, which it can’t do now, but imagine just one companies fleet of semi trucks. Power companies and municipalities are laughing at them.
Next, consider the environmental impact of just what it takes to manufacture a car/truck battery. That alone is another huge environmental problem.
Now we haven’t even got to the infrastructure yet. Roads, bridges, parking garages are NOT designed for all the added weight.
So yeah, you THINK you are doing well driving ev. But it’s just the opposite when you look at the big picture.
You have been snookered by something we can’t mentioned on here, lest we get kicked off.
Green it is not.

[Harold.wiser]

California regularly has rolling blackouts yet they want everyone in electric cars. The grid cannot handle the load. It makes no sense.

[Sdmillar]

The condos are projected to be in the $500,000 range. We're estimating that our "contribution" to the electrical infrastructure will be in the $5M range or about $20,000/unit.

Hopefully their estimate of time and money for your electrical infrastructure upgrade is closer than the famous Big Dig.

[J1ceasar]

Monopoly pricing

[Byte1]

"..ready for EVs?" .............NO!

Not for a primary means of transportation. Urban use, okay. EVs have been around since the 1800's but have never developed into a viable means of primary transportation. On the other hand, subway systems are EV and golf carts work fine for golf courses.
In my opinion, there are other alternatives that might be more suitable replacements for gasoline, such as hydrogen for example.

[Ptmcbriz]

Unfortunately, the US is falling behind year after year in modernization in technology. We are still doing things like the 1970’s when we could have built up our infrastructure. You travel to other countries that have kept up in modern infrastructure, like Dubai, and it’s shocking how behind we really are because our government doesn’t want to modernize. I sometimes wonder if that’s due to the average age of congress members. Older ways of thinking wanting to take us back to “good ole days” instead of moving forward.

Yes, I own an EV and love it. I didn’t buy it “to save the planet”. I bought it because I like the lifestyle…no more oil changes/maintenance, no more needing to always go gas up, better technology. The first time my new EV needs to go to the dealership for maintenance is in its 3rd year and it’s just to run diagnostics. I like that. I also like that BMW has batteries that have individual cells, so if at any time in the future there are battery issues, you don’t replace an entire battery but only those cells that are faulty (80 cells). Much lower cost replacing individual cells. The US will be prepared when our government decides it wants to join countries with advanced infrastructure instead of old technologies. I’m sure young people will be pushing us into the future with many kicking and screaming.

Duke Energy encourages EV’s. They just started a new program that they will reimburse you (by a check) for up to $850 to install your 220 plug in the garage for charging your EV. My total bill for install was $875, so Duke paid all but $25. Obviously, with that perk they are encouraging EV’s.

[bopat]

Tesla has the solution with their solar roof, power wall, and the best selling EV on the planet. Of course, you can do part or all of that.

[Chickx729]

In case you didnt know the California EV mandates are gone. This means Americans can decide if they are ready to buy one. One thing that no one talks about:the level of emf radiation that the cabin of an ev puts out. This would be the first thing I would ask if I was considering buying one.


Without the details it's difficult to know what work is being done but in general, infrastructure is expensive.

What would have been the cost to run a larger water line or larger sewer line to the property? What about a larger access road to handle the additional traffic? You chose electricity but expansion of any of those would have come with a cost too.

Is the USA ready for EVs? One estimate said there are 10 million on the road today. Either the USA is ready for 10M EVs or there are 10M customers with very heavy, immovable statues in their garages.

Is the US infrastructure robust enough today to support thousands more EV charging stations? Probably not. Will it ever be? Yes, but when that will be and what it will look like is unknown. Who knows how many EVs can the US support with its current infrastructure? We may find out soon.

[twoplanekid]

I purchased my 2024 Tesla M3 for $34,000 last Oct and have yet to use a super charger. I enjoy using FSD and need to charge at home about once a week. We also have a Honda CRV hybrid that my wife drives:smiley:

[Cliff Fr]

We often hear the naysayers claim the USA Electric Grid can't support a major conversion to EV's.

& many think that's a load of baloney.

We're converting a 200 Room Hotel, with 20,000 sq ft of event space, to a 300 unit Condominium. It's locate on a major US Interstate, in a sophisticated, wealthy suburb of Boston, less than 20 miles outside the city.

The electric grid/distribution system can't supply sufficient electricity to the site, without a infrastructure upgrade to the property line. They sent us the cost estimate on Friday.

$21,129,000. $70,000/unit. Total cost to provide electrical service, so each unit can run some lights & a toaster, is over $100,000.

The marketplace is the best decision maker for EV demand. I don't agree with government mandates or subsidies. For some people EVs work, for others they don't. I am a concerned thar EVs will be much harder to dispose of when they are worn out.

[Cuervo]

There will be more than enough power for EVs, as long as there is a profit motivation anything can be done. I'm sure most people thought gas power cars were impracticable how could you have enough gas to supply a nation full of those tin box's and who needs it anyway we have horses.
My first computer was an Atari, I was impressed I could write programs and make it do things, now I look back and I think what a joke.
Look once the infrastructure is put into place and some improvements are made to the cars themselves people will start switching over. Less expensive to maintain and operate, convenient you can wake up in the morning and the EV will be full charged and when on the highway you won't have to pull off there will be charging unit along the way.
Just look around today and look back 50 years ago and all the things you probably did not believe would have existed.

[CybrSage]

What we don’t have today is a means of delivering power any other way, either it’s on a wire from an existing power plant or it doesn’t happen. What we’ll need is a more efficient delivery system or more local power plants. Then we can start building EV charging stations as easily as we build UVE fueling stations. I’ve not kept up with any advances in those areas.

DARPA has created wireless power transmission. It should just be a few years and it will arrive.

DARPA smashes wireless power record, beaming energy more than 5 miles away — and uses it to make popcorn | Live Science (https://www.livescience.com/technology/darpa-smashes-wireless-power-record-beaming-energy-more-than-5-miles-away-and-uses-it-to-make-popcorn)

[CybrSage]

you can wake up in the morning and the EV will be full charged.

How do people without garages or driveways charge their cars overnight? Think apartments, condos , street parking, etc.

[Fastskiguy]

We often hear the naysayers claim the USA Electric Grid can't support a major conversion to EV's.

& many think that's a load of baloney.

We're converting a 200 Room Hotel, with 20,000 sq ft of event space, to a 300 unit Condominium. It's locate on a major US Interstate, in a sophisticated, wealthy suburb of Boston, less than 20 miles outside the city.

The electric grid/distribution system can't supply sufficient electricity to the site, without a infrastructure upgrade to the property line. They sent us the cost estimate on Friday.

$21,129,000. $70,000/unit. Total cost to provide electrical service, so each unit can run some lights & a toaster, is over $100,000.

It looks like this person is buying (or bought?)a hotel in a particularly tricky location. Presumably the building is getting power now (?) but they want more. Which definitely means EV's are a hard NO forever and ever. It's obvious logic.

Joe

[Indydealmaker]

I changed out my 20 year old AC and cut my bill in summertime in half.
All my neighbors still have their original units.
Think of the pressure it will take off the "grid" when everyone has ultra efficient units.
Plenty of room for cars

Elon Musk doesn't agree with your assessment. We are 30 years away from accommodating even a 40 % conversion to EVs.

[CybrSage]

Time for converting H2O in your tank into hydrogen to power your vehicle, and oxygen to add to the air around you. It already exists.

We had an oxygen genorator on my submarine. It split pure water into hydrogen and oxygen. We affectionately called it "the bomb" because of how dangerous it is to have oxygen and hydrogen together by an electrical source. If something goes wrong, it will explode.

A lot of work will be needed to make such a thing safe during a traffic accident.

The other issue is the increased in oxygen would cause insects to grow larger and larger. Many have size limitations due to their method of obtaining oxygen. In the Earths past, when Oxygen levels were much higher, some dragonflies grew to be 17" long with. 28" wingspan. Now, that was with a 50% oxygen level. But what would it be if a billion people (about 10%of the world's population), produced excess oxygen?

Wildfires would burn hotter, but people would find all activities easier, helping many.

The vehicles would need to burn off the excess oxygen or do something to prevent its release into the air.

The other issue is getting pure water for the cars. Pure water has to be made, it does not exist in nature. Even rainwater captures impurities from the air, dust and whatnot.

[CybrSage]

Unfortunately, the US is falling behind year after year in modernization in technology. We are still doing things like the 1970’s when we could have built up our infrastructure. You travel to other countries that have kept up in modern infrastructure, like Dubai, and it’s shocking how behind we really are because our government doesn’t want to modernize.

Population density is the key factor. Dubai has 2,630 people per square mile while the US has only 97 people per square mile, using 2023 estimates.

The cost of creating infrastructure in a city is far, far less than in the country. This is why there is a Universal Access Charge for phone service, everyone helps subsidize phone service in the middle of nowhere.

[Bill14564]

We had an oxygen genorator on my submarine. It split pure water into hydrogen and oxygen.
....

The vehicles would need to burn off the excess oxygen or do something to prevent its release into the air.

The other issue is getting pure water for the cars. Pure water has to be made, it does not exist in nature. Even rainwater captures impurities from the air, dust and whatnot.

I have a feeling the laws of physics would get in the way of that idea.

Pure water + energy -> hydrogen + oxygen -> fuel cell -> electricity + pure water + heat

The excess oxygen would be consumed by the reaction in the fuel cell to produce heat with pure water as the byproduct.

The electricity generated by the fuel cell could be used to drive a vehicle. The heat from the fuel cell could be used to separate the pure water from the fuel cell into hydrogen and oxygen. And if all that worked you would have a perpetual motion machine.

Instead of fighting the laws of physics, generate the hydrogen offsite, ideally with clean(ish) energy, then transport it to filling stations just as gasoline is produced offsite and transported to gas stations. A car equipped with a fuel cell would then be an EV with a hydrogen fuel cell rather than a lithium battery.

Hydrogen safety in transport and storage is a big problem but maybe solvable.

[Topspinmo]

There will be more than enough power for EVs, as long as there is a profit motivation anything can be done. I'm sure most people thought gas power cars were impracticable how could you have enough gas to supply a nation full of those tin box's and who needs it anyway we have horses.
My first computer was an Atari, I was impressed I could write programs and make it do things, now I look back and I think what a joke.
Look once the infrastructure is put into place and some improvements are made to the cars themselves people will start switching over. Less expensive to maintain and operate, convenient you can wake up in the morning and the EV will be full charged and when on the highway you won't have to pull off there will be charging unit along the way.
Just look around today and look back 50 years ago and all the things you probably did not believe would have existed.

Henry ford model T was designed to run on alcohol which could be made no need for gas stations, just make some moonshine :highfive: Standard oil came up with idea to use waste byproduct produced from kerosene for automobile’s.

[Birdrm]

Without the details it's difficult to know what work is being done but in general, infrastructure is expensive.

What would have been the cost to run a larger water line or larger sewer line to the property? What about a larger access road to handle the additional traffic? You chose electricity but expansion of any of those would have come with a cost too.

Is the USA ready for EVs? One estimate said there are 10 million on the road today. Either the USA is ready for 10M EVs or there are 10M customers with very heavy, immovable statues in their garages.

Is the US infrastructure robust enough today to support thousands more EV charging stations? Probably not. Will it ever be? Yes, but when that will be and what it will look like is unknown. Who knows how many EVs can the US support with its current infrastructure? We may find out soon.

The other issue is at what point is a charging station profitable, current gas stations are built because they expect to make a profit. Private business is not going to build charging stations for the good of the people and lose money. And it should not be up to the government to build charging stations on taxpayer money!

[goneil2024]

If a developer spent over $40 million for a 200 key, 5.3 acre site in a swanky suburb of Boston, (take for example Brookline), I would expect that their acquisition team would anticipated development costs, the projected DCF and CAP Expenses to deliver on a hurdle rate that offer viable returns to the investor. In that area for example 1BR Condos sell for $500k and more with 2BR at $800k or more x 300 = $240M overall, and as MA is very 'green' one would think that there are a number of incentives being offered to upgrade and convert the property, with energy/electric costs being simply one of them.

[Fastskiguy]

The other issue is at what point is a charging station profitable, current gas stations are built because they expect to make a profit. Private business is not going to build charging stations for the good of the people and lose money. And it should not be up to the government to build charging stations on taxpayer money!

Well if you want to seriously go into subsidies you might want to look into how effective the oil lobby has been.

All subsidies for energy should be discontinued and let it play out....but it's gotta be a level playing field so dealing with battery creating and recycling and your "occasional environmental disaster" cleanup (new horizons, leaded gas, etc, etc) needs to be accounted for.

Joe

[Bill14564]

The other issue is at what point is a charging station profitable, current gas stations are built because they expect to make a profit. Private business is not going to build charging stations for the good of the people and lose money. And it should not be up to the government to build charging stations on taxpayer money!

Current gas stations are built because they expect to make a profit and that is because there is a demand for their product. There is a growing demand for EV charging stations so why would you not expect businesses to make a profit off those as well?

Government spends tax money on things that benefit groups of taxpayers all the time. Think schools, sports stadiums, mass transit, airports, even early highways. Spending taxpayer money to help build (I don't think the govt is building themselves) the infrastructure to support EVs benefits the growing number of taxpayers driving EVs. They benefit, I don't, just like some benefit from spending tax money on schools while I don't.

[BrianL99]

It looks like this person is buying (or bought?)a hotel in a particularly tricky location. Presumably the building is getting power now (?) but they want more. Which definitely means EV's are a hard NO forever and ever. It's obvious logic.

Joe


Yeah, very tricky.

Located ON a major Interstate highway, with frontage on another state highway. In a business district, in the 9th richest SMSA in the United States.

[BrianL99]

If a developer spent over $40 million for a 200 key, 5.3 acre site in a swanky suburb of Boston, (take for example Brookline), I would expect that their acquisition team would anticipated development costs, the projected DCF and CAP Expenses to deliver on a hurdle rate that offer viable returns to the investor. In that area for example 1BR Condos sell for $500k and more with 2BR at $800k or more x 300 = $240M overall, and as MA is very 'green' one would think that there are a number of incentives being offered to upgrade and convert the property, with energy/electric costs being simply one of them.

Your numbers and assumptions aren't close.

[rsmurano]

We are decades away from having our infrastructure ready for EV’s as well as we are decades away from having EV’s equal to he convenience of internal combustion engines.
When I can fill up an EV in the same time as filling up a normal car, have as many charging stations as gas stations, the true miles an EV can go on 1 charge compared to a full tank of gas, and no wait lines at charging stations.

We should stop subsidizing the purchase of an EV at the same time have a tax on each EV based on the miles they drive to help pay for roads. Gas cars pay tax at the pump for road maintenance while the EV pays not road tax, we need to change that

[merrymini]

I just bought an S and love it but I think Toyota is right when it says that hybrids are the way to go. I have owned three Prius cars and would have bought another if I could get my hands on one. A Prius is getting 55 miles to the gallon. I settled for a Camry, hybrid getting 44 miles to the gallon and very happy with it. EV’s will find their place in the market when the market says it wants them. When they speak, people will listen and accommodate them with charging stations. I think battery innovation will eventually break the ice on that.

[Pennyt]

SECO already offers an incentive to charge your EV between midnight and 6am. As far as the grid is concerned, people were talking about over accessing the electrical grid when people first started putting in central air conditioning. The grid power was increased over time and no one lost power to their homes or businesses. We have an EV and love it. We charge it in our garage and don't have to worry about gas prices. Our car makes hardly any noise and there is no smelly exhaust.

[BrianL99]

I think Toyota is right when it says that hybrids are the way to go.

If anyone doubts the Toyota is the premier automobile manufacturer in the world, they haven't been paying attention.

Toyota has been saying for years, they won't jump on the EV bandwagon, because Hybrids are the logical evolution in automobiles.

Toyota has been kicking the butts of every other auto manufacturer for 30+ years and the trend continues.

You'd think the other manufacturers would have figured it out by now, but other than trying to copy Toyota/Lexus move to "big fat front grills", they seem content to allow Toyota to kick their butt.

[biker1]

Not exactly. Most of the states have an EV registration fee to cover the lost gas tax revenue. I’m sure all of the states will have one in the not too distant future. Many of your other assertions are not valid. For example, regarding the number of charging stations in the US, every garage is a recharging station. Third party recharging stations, such as Tesla, Electrify America, etc. are being built out as EV numbers increase.

We are decades away from having our infrastructure ready for EV’s as well as we are decades away from having EV’s equal to he convenience of internal combustion engines.
When I can fill up an EV in the same time as filling up a normal car, have as many charging stations as gas stations, the true miles an EV can go on 1 charge compared to a full tank of gas, and no wait lines at charging stations.

We should stop subsidizing the purchase of an EV at the same time have a tax on each EV based on the miles they drive to help pay for roads. Gas cars pay tax at the pump for road maintenance while the EV pays not road tax, we need to change that

[biker1]

As far as I can tell, SECO hasn’t gone to varying rates based on time. Can you provide a link to the incentives?

SECO already offers an incentive to charge your EV between midnight and 6am. As far as the grid is concerned, people were talking about over accessing the electrical grid when people first started putting in central air conditioning. The grid power was increased over time and no one lost power to their homes or businesses. We have an EV and love it. We charge it in our garage and don't have to worry about gas prices. Our car makes hardly any noise and there is no smelly exhaust.

[Fastskiguy]

You get 7 bucks a month by charging midnight to 6am. So that’s how much they are worried about when you charge your ev.

[Fastskiguy]

We are decades away from having our infrastructure ready for EV’s as well as we are decades away from having EV’s equal to he convenience of internal combustion engines.
When I can fill up an EV in the same time as filling up a normal car, have as many charging stations as gas stations, the true miles an EV can go on 1 charge compared to a full tank of gas, and no wait lines at charging stations.

We should stop subsidizing the purchase of an EV at the same time have a tax on each EV based on the miles they drive to help pay for roads. Gas cars pay tax at the pump for road maintenance while the EV pays not road tax, we need to change that

I literally spend no time charging my car ever. Now I’m lucky and have a garage. If you are parking on the street then it’s a little different.

Joe

[jimjamuser]

There are many reasons why electrical vehicles will begin replacing Internal Combustion Engines. 1) Judging by today's news, we can see oil and gasoline prices going UP. 2) The US gets a lot of electricity from river dams, wind generators, and solar panels. 3) Nuclear Energy power plants are getting smaller and safer. Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) can produce from 5 to 400 Mega Watts of electricity. They are factory produced and can be transported to any area. They have INCREASED SAFETY FEATURES. Their small size alone helps make they safe. Right now their only disadvantage is the public's fear of nuclear energy. In the future they will keep getting smaller to the point that each home may have their own unit. 4) Battery technology is improving with things like solid state batteries and better safety and more range. 5) The EV has fewer parts than an ICE vehicle and eventually will cost less and be more reliable. 6) Electric vehicles use will improve the air quality and restore ocean reefs. More fish protein will be available for future generations. 7) Oil can be used for pharmacy products which could bring down prescription costs. 8) The US will be less dependent on Middle East oil, which is a dangerous part of the world.

[Topspinmo]

Unfortunately, the US is falling behind year after year in modernization in technology. We are still doing things like the 1970’s when we could have built up our infrastructure. You travel to other countries that have kept up in modern infrastructure, like Dubai, and it’s shocking how behind we really are because our government doesn’t want to modernize. I sometimes wonder if that’s due to the average age of congress members. Older ways of thinking wanting to take us back to “good ole days” instead of moving forward.

Yes, I own an EV and love it. I didn’t buy it “to save the planet”. I bought it because I like the lifestyle…no more oil changes/maintenance, no more needing to always go gas up, better technology. The first time my new EV needs to go to the dealership for maintenance is in its 3rd year and it’s just to run diagnostics. I like that. I also like that BMW has batteries that have individual cells, so if at any time in the future there are battery issues, you don’t replace an entire battery but only those cells that are faulty (80 cells). Much lower cost replacing individual cells. The US will be prepared when our government decides it wants to join countries with advanced infrastructure instead of old technologies. I’m sure young people will be pushing us into the future with many kicking and screaming.

‘like Dubai‘ LOL about size of New Jersey half population and filthy rich with oil money which they are investing in rich play grounds when oil runs out. No way compare them to USA.

[BrianL99]

. More fish protein will be available for future generations.


It's about time someone considered the Fish Protein issue.

Somehow, I suspected who it would be 😂

[Bill14564]

As far as I can tell, SECO hasn’t gone to varying rates based on time. Can you provide a link to the incentives?

You get 7 bucks a month by charging midnight to 6am. So that’s how much they are worried about when you charge your ev.

That appears to be a Duke Energy program. I cannot find anything similar for SECO.

SECO does have a time of use rate chart but there is no information on their website about how to request it. My back of the envelope calculations seemed to show that it wouldn't save me anything but it might be beneficial to someone with an EV charger.

[Fastskiguy]

That appears to be a Duke Energy program. I cannot find anything similar for SECO.

SECO does have a time of use rate chart but there is no information on their website about how to request it. My back of the envelope calculations seemed to show that it wouldn't save me anything but it might be beneficial to someone with an EV charger.

Whoops, yep, you’re right. I’ll just go a little more off topic and mention that 1/2 of the time we just use the 110v plug to charge 12am-6am because it’s just a bit closer to the car than the big level 2 charger We have 30,000 miles on the car in almost exactly 2 years so it’s getting decent use.

Joe

[Topspinmo]

There are many reasons why electrical vehicles will begin replacing Internal Combustion Engines. 1) Judging by today's news, we can see oil and gasoline prices going UP. 2) The US gets a lot of electricity from river dams, wind generators, and solar panels. 3) Nuclear Energy power plants are getting smaller and safer. Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) can produce from 5 to 400 Mega Watts of electricity. They are factory produced and can be transported to any area. They have INCREASED SAFETY FEATURES. Their small size alone helps make they safe. Right now their only disadvantage is the public's fear of nuclear energy. In the future they will keep getting smaller to the point that each home may have their own unit. 4) Battery technology is improving with things like solid state batteries and better safety and more range. 5) The EV has fewer parts than an ICE vehicle and eventually will cost less and be more reliable. 6) Electric vehicles use will improve the air quality and restore ocean reefs. More fish protein will be available for future generations. 7) Oil can be used for pharmacy products which could bring down prescription costs. 8) The US will be less dependent on Middle East oil, which is a dangerous part of the world.

Here another opinion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sytWLB4-W-M

[Laraine]

I think saving the world, one Air Conditioner at a time, is a great start. Try to get your neighbors on the program, in case someone in the neighborhood buys an EV. I think the ratio is about 3 AC's to 1 EV.

On top of the EVs, don't forget to add in the expected 50-100% increase in the power grid needed for all the planned AI/computer cloud data centers. Not to mention the current grid needs plenty of updating for reliability. Something has to give.

[jimjamuser]

Never mind the electrical grid to charge cars, which it can’t do now, but imagine just one companies fleet of semi trucks. Power companies and municipalities are laughing at them.
Next, consider the environmental impact of just what it takes to manufacture a car/truck battery. That alone is another huge environmental problem.
Now we haven’t even got to the infrastructure yet. Roads, bridges, parking garages are NOT designed for all the added weight.
So yeah, you THINK you are doing well driving ev. But it’s just the opposite when you look at the big picture.
You have been snookered by something we can’t mentioned on here, lest we get kicked off.
Green it is not.
In the future, batteries will be smaller, lighter, cheaper, and easy to recycle. They will also last longer than current batteries. Also, when you consider how many ICE 18 wheel trucks there are on the roads today, I doubt that additional EV cars and trucks in the future would wear out roads faster. The US would probably move freight faster if they made more RAILROAD lines. It would also produce LESS pollution than the diesel big rigs. Less pollution would lead to better upper air quality, which would lead to smaller hurricanes, which is important to Floridians.

[jimjamuser]

Unfortunately, the US is falling behind year after year in modernization in technology. We are still doing things like the 1970’s when we could have built up our infrastructure. You travel to other countries that have kept up in modern infrastructure, like Dubai, and it’s shocking how behind we really are because our government doesn’t want to modernize. I sometimes wonder if that’s due to the average age of congress members. Older ways of thinking wanting to take us back to “good ole days” instead of moving forward.

Yes, I own an EV and love it. I didn’t buy it “to save the planet”. I bought it because I like the lifestyle…no more oil changes/maintenance, no more needing to always go gas up, better technology. The first time my new EV needs to go to the dealership for maintenance is in its 3rd year and it’s just to run diagnostics. I like that. I also like that BMW has batteries that have individual cells, so if at any time in the future there are battery issues, you don’t replace an entire battery but only those cells that are faulty (80 cells). Much lower cost replacing individual cells. The US will be prepared when our government decides it wants to join countries with advanced infrastructure instead of old technologies. I’m sure young people will be pushing us into the future with many kicking and screaming.
I agree with all of your post and I think that Congress people should have a 2 term maximum.

[jimjamuser]

It's about time someone considered the Fish Protein issue.

Somehow, I suspected who it would be 😂
Coral reefs are VERY important to SCUBA divers and professional and amateur salt water fishermen. It is important to the Florida tourist trade. Coral reefs are indications of environmental degradation. In 100 years Midwest farm production will be only 40% of what it is today. Look it up and ask ,"do we want to do that to our future generations" just to make oil executives rich? The choice to buy an electric vehicle versus a gas vehicle, has many ramifications for the whole Earth's future.

[biker1]

Remind us of which EV you drive.


Coral reefs are VERY important to SCUBA divers and professional and amateur salt water fishermen. It is important to the Florida tourist trade. Coral reefs are indications of environmental degradation. In 100 years Midwest farm production will be only 40% of what it is today. Look it up and ask ,"do we want to do that to our future generations" just to make oil executives rich? The choice to buy an electric vehicle versus a gas vehicle, has many ramifications for the whole Earth's future.

[jimjamuser]

Remind us of which EV you drive.
Does that really matter? I am wheelchair bound and I get everything delivered by Amazon (which has many ELECTRIC vehicles).

[biker1]

Then stop lecturing people on what you think they should do. Nobody cares but it is a real annoyance to keep seeing your posts.


Does that really matter? I am wheelchair bound and I get everything delivered by Amazon (which has many ELECTRIC vehicles).

[Battlebasset]

Have no idea. I just know that I'm not ready for one as my only car. I think most people are in the same boat as me.

[Topspinmo]

Then stop lecturing people on what you think they should do. Nobody cares but it is a real annoyance to keep seeing your posts.

He sound like her :pepper2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGa_4vp3rNE

[Topspinmo]

I agree with all of your post and I think that Congress people should have a 2 term maximum.

It’s not representative it’s the districts that keeps voting them in time after time.

[bopat]

How do people without garages or driveways charge their cars overnight? Think apartments, condos , street parking, etc.

They'd ride public transit

[ElDiabloJoe]

Then stop lecturing people on what you think they should do. Nobody cares but it is a real annoyance to keep seeing your posts.
^ Concur 100%

[bopat]

Not only is the grid going to crash, the ice age is coming down from canada, the oceans are going to rise and wipe everyone out, global warming will kill you, cow farts will force us all to eat crickets, there will be a shortage of fresh water, hackers will steal everything you have, and what's left you won't own, and the world is going to be nuked.

Now I'm heading off to play some golf.

[Cuervo]

How do people without garages or driveways charge their cars overnight? Think apartments, condos , street parking, etc.

Europe has charges on the streets and her there are complexes that are installing them in their garages. I had my driveway redone last year, I have an Ioniq 6, I could not get my car into the garage for over a week, I drove to Costco they had a number of Electrify America charges, when you buy an EV from Hyundai, they have a deal with this company, you get 2 years of free charging.

[Cuervo]

Henry ford model T was designed to run on alcohol which could be made no need for gas stations, just make some moonshine :highfive: Standard oil came up with idea to use waste byproduct produced from kerosene for automobile’s.

I was unaware of that, but if it ran on alcohol or toothpaste the infrastructure was not in place to compete with a horse, yet here we are today, bumper to bumper. EVs will go through the same type of evolution, except we have the knowledge and the capability to get electric where we need it.

[Michael G.]

California regularly has rolling blackouts yet they want everyone in electric cars. The grid cannot handle the load. It makes no sense.

When I lived in the Midwest I offend wondered what would happen in winter when a cold
front took the temps down near zero, and a power grid was wiped out for a week or so how many houses would have frozen pipes.

And with all the new builds, are we keeping up the demand?

[keepsake]

Your neighbors will be laughing when your new fangled coolant, catches on fire.

[Pugchief]

How do people without garages or driveways charge their cars overnight? Think apartments, condos , street parking, etc.

Europe has charges on the streets and her there are complexes that are installing them in their garages. I had my driveway redone last year, I have an Ioniq 6, I could not get my car into the garage for over a week, I drove to Costco they had a number of Electrify America charges, when you buy an EV from Hyundai, they have a deal with this company, you get 2 years of free charging.

Your hot water heater goes out, and you have to take cold showers for 2 days until they can install a new one. Annoying but tolerable. Now how about you have to take cold showers ALWAYS bc you don't HAVE a water heater? Translation: You didn't mind using public charging ONCE as a minor inconvenience, but imagine living in an apartment and having to go charge at Costco or Walgreens or wherever EVERY 2 days and sit there for AN HOUR, assuming you could even get an open charging bay. I doubt too many people would be willing to do that.

If you have a garage you can charge in overnight (suburbs, TV, rural) and you drive shorter distances, EVs are great. If you live in the city, or most apartments, they are not practical. This may change in the future, but it's reality now.

[BrianL99]

Europe has charges on the streets and her there are complexes that are installing them in their garages. I had my driveway redone last year, I have an Ioniq 6, I could not get my car into the garage for over a week, I drove to Costco they had a number of Electrify America charges, when you buy an EV from Hyundai, they have a deal with this company, you get 2 years of free charging.


Right now, if you can't "charge at home", the economic model changes drastically. There's no free lunch.

[Topspinmo]

I was unaware of that, but if it ran on alcohol or toothpaste the infrastructure was not in place to compete with a horse, yet here we are today, bumper to bumper. EVs will go through the same type of evolution, except we have the knowledge and the capability to get electric where we need it.


No infrastructure needs for corn gas, it was home made until Rockefeller got his hooks in Henry ford. By time EVs take over we will long dead and buried.

[Topspinmo]

When I lived in the Midwest I offend wondered what would happen in winter when a cold
front took the temps down near zero, and a power grid was wiped out for a week or so how many houses would have frozen pipes.

And with all the new builds, are we keeping up the demand?

Only in suburbs. People living in Country knew how to survive without depending on cities grid or Uncle Sam.

[Caymus]

Right now, if you can't "charge at home", the economic model changes drastically. There's no free lunch.

Do you know if the rates include state/federal gas taxes?

[BrianL99]

Do you know if the rates include state/federal gas taxes?

From ChatGPT:

"" EV-specific taxes:
• Some states have begun charging annual EV fees to replace lost gas tax revenue (e.g., $100–$200/year), but these are not included in the per-kWh rate.

✅ So yes — most quoted EV charging rates include electricity taxes and fees, but not long-term vehicle fees.

⸻

⛽ Gasoline Prices: Do Include Taxes
• The price per gallon already includes federal and state fuel taxes:
• Federal gas tax: ~18.4¢/gallon
• State gas tax: varies, up to ~60¢/gallon (e.g., California, Illinois)
• Combined, taxes can make up 10–20% of the price at the pump.

✅ Gas prices at the pump always include taxes.

⸻

🧮 Bottom Line (Adjusted View):
• EV charging cost per mile includes most usage-based taxes.
• Gasoline cost per mile includes all per-gallon fuel taxes.
• Annual EV fees (in some states) slightly offset the savings — worth factoring in for long-term cost comparisons."

[Rocksnap]

Most EVs are cleaner than most ICE vehicles. Whether that matters is a personal decision.

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.

[Bill14564]

Right now, if you can't "charge at home", the economic model changes drastically. There's no free lunch.

Since prices vary around the country, AAA has a nice Fuel Price page (https://gasprices.aaa.com) that gives the average price of gas and EV charging in each state. Use EV efficiency at 3-4 miles/kWh to compare cost/mile. Some states are more expensive than others but overall this matches the chatGPT traffic.

Not owning an EV myself, I had no idea that electricity from public chargers cost three to four times what we pay at home.

[Bill14564]

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.

Most (all?) those studies seem to envision a single EV being born in a mine and growing to adulthood through shipping materials around the world while an ICE vehicle simply springs into existence on a dealer's showroom floor. Realistically, ICE vehicles also begin in mines and require a lot of resources to machine the parts for the engine. I've not seen a realistic, apples-to-apples comparison.

I'm particularly interested in the fuel. The coal-fired plant is often mentioned but since only about 15% of electricity is generated from coal today, it is five times more likely that your electricity came from something other than coal. Regardless, it's the cost that interests me. From both the chatGPT table and what we actually pay, the gas to move a vehicle a given distance costs three times as much as the electricity used. Yes, there are gas taxes but there are also electricity fees and someone soon will point out the losses incurred in transporting electricity over a long distance. When everything is figured in, the difference must come down to the price of fuel used. So either electrical generation uses a very inexpensive fuel compared to gasoline or a power plant is much more fuel efficient than a car engine. My bet is the latter, that power plants are much more fuel efficient and therefore much cleaner than gasoline engines.

When ALL is added up, it isn't clear that EV and ICE engines have ever really been compared apples-to-apples and it sure isn't obvious that ICE vehicles have lower overall emissions.

[biker1]

There is a lot in here that is not true. Most obviously is electricity generation by coal. Coal represents about 16% of electricity generation in the US and has been dropping steadily, primarily because natural gas is a lower cost way to generate electricity, plus it is cleaner. This is hardly “by most likely a coal fired plant”. You can easily look this stuff up instead of posting nonsense to fit your bias. Buy an EV or don’t buy an EV; nobody cares.

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.

[rsmurano]

IMO, hybrids are a joke. You get 20+ miles on electric power? So you are paying a premium for a car that gets you a few miles per tank let alone the cost of maintaining a hybrid.
Somebody is wrong, gas prices are going lower, much lower. You can’t claim a blip for a day means much in gas prices. I’m paying < $3 a gallon and that includes all taxes which EVs will be starting to pay road taxes in the future and no subsidies.
Electrical grids: I worked at gas/electric utilities for over 32 years and the country gets very little power from hydro dams. 99% of the power our utility provided was from hydro but that is rare. Our utility started making new power generation plants using natural gas, wood chips, fuel cells, and nuclear. Currently, all talk and all investors putting big money into this country are for power plants to produce energy for our new AI server farms that are coming online, not EVs. Most of them will be nuclear or gas. Wind and solar generation is a joke, they are so inefficient, ugly, needs so much space to get so little power. Nuclear Fusion is the ultimate way to produce power but not there yet.
EV byproducts are hazardous to the environment. Their batteries require hazardous waste methods of storage that can pollute aquifers in the future.

[ROCKETMAN]

GM is moving production from Mexico investing 4 Billion in plants making SUV s and trucks, not EV. Their ceo said EV sales were over hyped.

[biker1]

I agree about hybrids; you are paying for a lot of complexity. Renewables are about 20% of electricity generation in the US with hydro at about 6%. Hydro is regional. Perhaps renewables will continue to creep up but they have issues providing a base level of power. I agree that nuclear has advantages over other sources. The 3 accidents, unfortunately, didn’t help the public impression. It is what it is. I doubt gas prices are going much lower. When the price of crude drops too low then production is reduced.

IMO, hybrids are a joke. You get 20+ miles on electric power? So you are paying a premium for a car that gets you a few miles per tank let alone the cost of maintaining a hybrid.
Somebody is wrong, gas prices are going lower, much lower. You can’t claim a blip for a day means much in gas prices. I’m paying < $3 a gallon and that includes all taxes which EVs will be starting to pay road taxes in the future and no subsidies.
Electrical grids: I worked at gas/electric utilities for over 32 years and the country gets very little power from hydro dams. 99% of the power our utility provided was from hydro but that is rare. Our utility started making new power generation plants using natural gas, wood chips, fuel cells, and nuclear. Currently, all talk and all investors putting big money into this country are for power plants to produce energy for our new AI server farms that are coming online, not EVs. Most of them will be nuclear or gas. Wind and solar generation is a joke, they are so inefficient, ugly, needs so much space to get so little power. Nuclear Fusion is the ultimate way to produce power but not there yet.
EV byproducts are hazardous to the environment. Their batteries require hazardous waste methods of storage that can pollute aquifers in the future.

[Topspinmo]

IMO, hybrids are a joke. You get 20+ miles on electric power? So you are paying a premium for a car that gets you a few miles per tank let alone the cost of maintaining a hybrid.
Somebody is wrong, gas prices are going lower, much lower. You can’t claim a blip for a day means much in gas prices. I’m paying < $3 a gallon and that includes all taxes which EVs will be starting to pay road taxes in the future and no subsidies.
Electrical grids: I worked at gas/electric utilities for over 32 years and the country gets very little power from hydro dams. 99% of the power our utility provided was from hydro but that is rare. Our utility started making new power generation plants using natural gas, wood chips, fuel cells, and nuclear. Currently, all talk and all investors putting big money into this country are for power plants to produce energy for our new AI server farms that are coming online, not EVs. Most of them will be nuclear or gas. Wind and solar generation is a joke, they are so inefficient, ugly, needs so much space to get so little power. Nuclear Fusion is the ultimate way to produce power but not there yet.
EV byproducts are hazardous to the environment. Their batteries require hazardous waste methods of storage that can pollute aquifers in the future.

IMO renewable E85 cost more per gallon than regular E10 to make and you get less energy which means less MPG. If government didn’t subsidize Ethanol it wouldn’t be cost effective to manufacture it. Plus drives up price corn which had down stream effects on food especially beef. One of many reasons this country 37 trillion in debt. :oops: now shall we talk about farm subsidies? Another pig in pork IMO of course..:shrug:

[Bill14564]

IMO, hybrids are a joke. You get 20+ miles on electric power? So you are paying a premium for a car that gets you a few miles per tank let alone the cost of maintaining a hybrid.

The PHEV electric-only range is more like 30 miles today (KBB.com (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/plug-in-hybrid-cars-range-chart/))

90% or more of my trips locally are less than 20 miles round trip or 100% electric. One gallon of gas lasts a very, very long time when you use none of it.

Many of my medium trips are down to Orlando (120mi RT) or Tampa (150mi RT). If I can only recharge at home, that still gives me 20% to 25% electric, a not insignificant savings.

The HEV (Toyota Prius, gas + electric) at about 50mpg is still considerably cheaper to operate than a non-hybrid at 25-30mpg.

The cost of maintaining a hybrid? LESS than the cost of maintaining an ICE. An oil change is an oil change but the (typically) smaller hybrid engines require less oil. Fewer miles on the gas engine of a PHEV means less frequent oil changes. Regenerative braking means you may never need to perform brake work on a hybrid. Smaller 12V batteries with less stress means you may never need to replace one. Nothing about a hybrid requires more maintenance and many items require less (or less expensive) maintenance.

Somebody is wrong, gas prices are going lower, much lower. You can’t claim a blip for a day means much in gas prices. I’m paying < $3 a gallon and that includes all taxes which EVs will be starting to pay road taxes in the future and no subsidies.
Yes, gas is available today at $2.95 or so but that is new and may or may not last long. "In the future" when EVs start to pay road taxes gas may be up to $4 and electric may be down to $0.06/kWh. How do I know? I don't but if we're simply speculating then....


EV byproducts are hazardous to the environment. Their batteries require hazardous waste methods of storage that can pollute aquifers in the future.

What is the byproduct of an EV, a whistling sound as it goes by? Certainly not the exhaust fumes of the ICE engines.

I don't know that recycling lithium batteries (those materials are in short supply after all) will pollute the aquifer more than disposing of the acid or lead from a 12V car battery. I do know that I've had to replace the 12V batteries in most of my vehicles (though not hybrids) but I have yet to hear someone say they needed to replace the lithium batteries in their EV or electric cart.

[opinionist]

Hydrogen-powered vehicles are likely the future of transportation fuel.
EVs are nothing but a fad supported by government subsidies.
Sooner or later, the free market will decide what is best.

[biker1]

Lead-acid batteries from autos are not “disposed of”. They are nearly 100% recycled; virtually everything is reclaimed.

The PHEV electric-only range is more like 30 miles today (KBB.com (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/plug-in-hybrid-cars-range-chart/))

90% or more of my trips locally are less than 20 miles round trip or 100% electric. One gallon of gas lasts a very, very long time when you use none of it.

Many of my medium trips are down to Orlando (120mi RT) or Tampa (150mi RT). If I can only recharge at home, that still gives me 20% to 25% electric, a not insignificant savings.

The HEV (Toyota Prius, gas + electric) at about 50mpg is still considerably cheaper to operate than a non-hybrid at 25-30mpg.

The cost of maintaining a hybrid? LESS than the cost of maintaining an ICE. An oil change is an oil change but the (typically) smaller hybrid engines require less oil. Fewer miles on the gas engine of a PHEV means less frequent oil changes. Regenerative braking means you may never need to perform brake work on a hybrid. Smaller 12V batteries with less stress means you may never need to replace one. Nothing about a hybrid requires more maintenance and many items require less (or less expensive) maintenance.


Yes, gas is available today at $2.95 or so but that is new and may or may not last long. "In the future" when EVs start to pay road taxes gas may be up to $4 and electric may be down to $0.06/kWh. How do I know? I don't but if we're simply speculating then....




What is the byproduct of an EV, a whistling sound as it goes by? Certainly not the exhaust fumes of the ICE engines.

I don't know that recycling lithium batteries (those materials are in short supply after all) will pollute the aquifer more than disposing of the acid or lead from a 12V car battery. I do know that I've had to replace the 12V batteries in most of my vehicles (though not hybrids) but I have yet to hear someone say they needed to replace the lithium batteries in their EV or electric cart.

[CybrSage]

I have a feeling the laws of physics would get in the way of that idea.

Pure water + energy -> hydrogen + oxygen -> fuel cell -> electricity + pure water + heat

The excess oxygen would be consumed by the reaction in the fuel cell to produce heat with pure water as the byproduct.

The electricity generated by the fuel cell could be used to drive a vehicle. The heat from the fuel cell could be used to separate the pure water from the fuel cell into hydrogen and oxygen. And if all that worked you would have a perpetual motion machine.

Instead of fighting the laws of physics, generate the hydrogen offsite, ideally with clean(ish) energy, then transport it to filling stations just as gasoline is produced offsite and transported to gas stations. A car equipped with a fuel cell would then be an EV with a hydrogen fuel cell rather than a lithium battery.

Hydrogen safety in transport and storage is a big problem but maybe solvable.

Agreed, putting a box on every car would be foolish. Bad enough storing what destroyed the Hindenburg...

[Ptmcbriz]

Duke Energy encourages EV’s. They just started a new program that they will reimburse you (by a check) for up to $850 to install your 220 plug in the garage for charging your EV. My total bill for install was $875, so Duke paid all but $25. Obviously, with that perk they are encouraging EV’s.

[CybrSage]

Same car, one ev and one ice, the ev costs about $10k more to buy.
If I save $1000 a year in fuel costs, it will take me 10 years to break even.
Then I have the EV hassles to deal with.

It is a losing proposition if being done for the money savings.

Many live the tech Eva come with and how quiet they are. Those age good reasons, money savings is not.

[Bill14564]

Same car, one ev and one ice, the ev costs about $10k more to buy.
If I save $1000 a year in fuel costs, it will take me 10 years to break even.
Then I have the EV hassles to deal with.

It is a losing proposition if being done for the money savings.

Many live the tech Eva come with and how quiet they are. Those age good reasons, money savings is not.

Which car comes in both an ICE and EV version?

But yeah, price matters. We looked at a particular Toyota that came in ICE, HEV, and PHEV. ICE and HEV are considerations for us but not the PHEV due to the added price. We calculated we don't make enough short trips to realize any savings from the plug-in feature. But, we'll have to see what it looks like in '26 or '27 when we're ready to buy.

[annecobb]

What air conditioner did you get and what was the ton?

[annecobb]

My apologies, I can't seem to align my questions to the intended response. But I am interested in the new AC unit which has a remarkable efficiency.

[Aces4]

Duke Energy encourages EV’s. They just started a new program that they will reimburse you (by a check) for up to $850 to install your 220 plug in the garage for charging your EV. My total bill for install was $875, so Duke paid all but $25. Obviously, with that perk they are encouraging EV’s.

You do realize that Duke is in the business of selling electricity for profit and encouraging consumers to use more of their product to increase their profits is the goal, right? EV chargers will nicely pad their bottom line and thus the encouragement and discount to install the 220 plugs will be recovered quickly.:rolleyes:

[Bill14564]

You do realize that Duke is in the business of selling electricity for profit and encouraging consumers to use more of their product to increase their profits is the goal, right? EV chargers will nicely pad their bottom line and thus the encouragement and discount to install the 220 plugs will be recovered quickly.:rolleyes:

Are you suggesting Duke is selling the charger and their business model is to make big bucks by netting $25/customer?

Otherwise, the charger will be installed one way or another whether there is a rebate or not and Duke is only eating into their profits by sending the customer an $800 check.

Plus, Duke also offers $7.50/month if the customer charges within certain hours.

But yeah, Duke is out to make money so there is something in it for them. Maybe a $1,000 credit from the Govt for providing an EV program where they pass 80% along to the customer and keep 20% for themselves.

[Aces4]

Are you suggesting Duke is selling the charger and their business model is to make big bucks by netting $25/customer?

Otherwise, the charger will be installed one way or another whether there is a rebate or not and Duke is only eating into their profits by sending the customer an $800 check.

Plus, Duke also offers $7.50/month if the customer charges within certain hours.

But yeah, Duke is out to make money so there is something in it for them. Maybe a $1,000 credit from the Govt for providing an EV program where they pass 80% along to the customer and keep 20% for themselves.

Yes, Duke is out to make money.

Lol, I do not believe Duke, a public stock traded company, is out of the goodness of their heart installing 220 chargers for $25. per customer to take a loss and a beating in their profits which they need to explain to the stockholders. I hope Duke also donates millions to Tunnels to Towers yearly if they are that benevolent.

[BrianL99]

Duke Energy encourages EV’s. They just started a new program that they will reimburse you (by a check) for up to $850 to install your 220 plug in the garage for charging your EV. My total bill for install was $875, so Duke paid all but $25. Obviously, with that perk they are encouraging EV’s.

You do realize that Duke is in the business of selling electricity for profit and encouraging consumers to use more of their product to increase their profits is the goal, right? EV chargers will nicely pad their bottom line and thus the encouragement and discount to install the 220 plugs will be recovered quickly.:rolleyes:

They're not encouraging EV's, they're encouraging consumption, while lowering production and delivery costs.

[Bwanajim]

We often hear the naysayers claim the USA Electric Grid can't support a major conversion to EV's.

& many think that's a load of baloney.

We're converting a 200 Room Hotel, with 20,000 sq ft of event space, to a 300 unit Condominium. It's locate on a major US Interstate, in a sophisticated, wealthy suburb of Boston, less than 20 miles outside the city.

The electric grid/distribution system can't supply sufficient electricity to the site, without a infrastructure upgrade to the property line. They sent us the cost estimate on Friday.

$21,129,000. $70,000/unit. Total cost to provide electrical service, so each unit can run some lights & a toaster, is over $100,000.

I read a lot about our current power grid could not support it. One example was only 4 homes on a block could have a charging station without overloading the system.
I'm sure that's probably older neighborhoods.

[bopat]

I would never buy a house next to a gas station.
Yet my house charges my EV every night.

[Topspinmo]

I would never buy a house next to a gas station.
Yet my house charges my EV every night.

I would never buy house next to utilities generation, yet I use electric in my in my house.

[Topspinmo]

Agreed, putting a box on every car would be foolish. Bad enough storing what destroyed the Hindenburg...

Let’s see tank of gas? 800 pounds plus batteries? Which will cause same damage it goes up like Roman candle 🧨. Nothing without risk no matter how low the percentage.

[jimjamuser]

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.
That analysis is the complete definition of a RATIONALIZATION. It starts with the desire to prove that ICE vehicles are better for the environment than Electric vehicles and then works backwards. The 1st problem with the analysis is that EVs need fewer parts and fewer moving parts so EVs will EVENTUALLY cost less than IC vehicles. Using less parts will mean that all the transportation costs will FAVOR the Electric vehicles. EV motors go in a circular motion while the gasoline engines going a reciprocating motion that must be transformed into circular motion. That means more frictional losses. Which means less efficiency for an internal combustion engine versus a EV. Also, the gasoline engine uses a radiator to make up for HEAT LOSS. The main point of EVs are that the cost of electricity will go down in the future while the cost gas and oil will go up. In general, people, especially the older ones, don't like CHANGE. Those people can EASE into the future with hybrid vehicles. IC engines are at their peak of design efficiency, but EV motors and batteries have a greater future for safety and efficiency.

[biker1]

Not enough details to take the example seriously. To start, how many amps will each house pull to recharge? If you are using 120V charging (Level 1) then it could be about 10 amps; not a big deal. If is it 240V (Level 2) it could be as high as 48 amps. Depending on how many miles you drive per day, Level 1 could be sufficient. A house with 200 amp service would probably not have an issue with Level 2 charging. A house with 100 amp service could have an issue. Details matter.

I read a lot about our current power grid could not support it. One example was only 4 homes on a block could have a charging station without overloading the system.
I'm sure that's probably older neighborhoods.

[jimjamuser]

If anyone doubts the Toyota is the premier automobile manufacturer in the world, they haven't been paying attention.

Toyota has been saying for years, they won't jump on the EV bandwagon, because Hybrids are the logical evolution in automobiles.

Toyota has been kicking the butts of every other auto manufacturer for 30+ years and the trend continues.

You'd think the other manufacturers would have figured it out by now, but other than trying to copy Toyota/Lexus move to "big fat front grills", they seem content to allow Toyota to kick their butt.
The Toyota BZ4X is their 1st ALL-ELECTRIC vehicle. It sells for $43K. Hint.....it may become a GREAT collector car as the US people begin buying more and more hybrid and all electric vehicles.

[Pugchief]

Not enough details to take the example seriously. To start, how many amps will each house pull to recharge? If you are using 120V charging (Level 1) then it could be about 10 amps; not a big detail. If is it 240V (Level 2) it could be as high as 48 amps. Depending on how many miles you drive per day, Level 1 could be sufficient. A house with 200 amp service would probably not have an issue with Level 2 charging. A house with 100 amp service could have an issue. Details matter.

Tesla M3 charging at L2 ~220v maxes out at 32 amps.

[biker1]

Did the installer put in a 40, 50, or 60 amp breaker? Did you put in a Tesla wall charger or a NEMA 14-50 outlet and use the Mobile charger? Any thoughts on whichever way you went? Thanks.

Tesla M3 charging at L2 ~220v maxes out at 32 amps.

[jimjamuser]

I would never buy a house next to a gas station.
Yet my house charges my EV every night.
Good point!

[Pugchief]

Did the installer put in a 40, 50, or 60 amp breaker? Did you put in a Tesla wall charger or a NEMA 14-50 outlet and use the Mobile charger? Any thoughts on whichever way you went? Thanks.

Those were all options. I went with the NEMA 14-50 outlet and a 50 amp breaker with 1" conduit vs standard 3/4".

Why? The charging kit that comes with a Tesla includes both a regular 110v standard plug and a NEMA 14-50 plug like you would have on an electric dryer. This installation was done UpNorth, where the conduit had to be run from the electrical panel in the basement on the other side of the house. In the event we ever had 2 EVs, the larger conduit would accommodate an additional circuit which the 3/4" would not. The additional expense of 1" was not much. Same with the larger breaker.

I didn't feel like spending $500 for the Tesla wall charger as it didn't really do much more than the 14-50 except look prettier.

When I'm in FL, I use a standard 110v outlet to charge overnight and I only have to do it maybe once a week. I just don't use much juice going to different rec centers and the grocery store.