Shane Lowry Penalized 2 Strokes

[Rainger99]

Should it have been a penalty?

And should it be two strokes?

One for causing it to move?
And one for not replacing it?

If you don’t see it move, how can you replace it?

And not every shot of every player is shown close up on camera. Players should be treated equally.


British Open: Shane Lowry penalized 2 shots in golf rules conundrum - Yahoo Sports (https://sports.yahoo.com/golf/article/british-open-shane-lowry-penalized-2-shots-in-golf-rules-conundrum-181437389.html)

[retiredguy123]

The rule is the rule. Personally, I agree with the ruling. The video is very clear that the player caused the ball to move. It's a game with rules.

[BrianL99]

Should it have been a penalty?

And should it be two strokes?

One for causing it to move?
And one for not replacing it?

If you don’t see it move, how can you replace it?

And not every shot of every player is shown close up on camera. Players should be treated equally.


British Open: Shane Lowry penalized 2 shots in golf rules conundrum - Yahoo Sports (https://sports.yahoo.com/golf/article/british-open-shane-lowry-penalized-2-shots-in-golf-rules-conundrum-181437389.html)

The rule is perfectly clear.

See USGA (& adopted by the R&A) Decision 33-7/4.5 adopted April 2011 & Decision 18/4 adopted effective 1/1/14.

The ball moved.

Also see definition of "moved" USGA Rules [Definitions]

Moved

"When your ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so).

This applies whether your ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.

If your ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, your ball has not moved."

[Taltarzac725]

His practice swing was too close.

[Rainger99]

He said that he didn't see it move. If not for the camera, there would not have been a penalty. If every player has a camera focused on every shot and every practice swing, it would be a fair ruling. The vast majority of players do not have a camera focused on every shot or practice swing. He shouldn't be penalized if he is in a marquee group.

[retiredguy123]

He said that he didn't see it move. If not for the camera, there would not have been a penalty. If every player has a camera focused on every shot and every practice swing, it would be a fair ruling. The vast majority of players do not have a camera focused on every shot or practice swing. He shouldn't be penalized if he is in a marquee group.
There shouldn't be marquee groups. Every player should be treated equally. You even said so in your original post.

[Rainger99]

There shouldn't be marquee groups. Every player should be treated equally. You even said so in your original post.

But there are marquee groups. The issue is should they be treated differently and held to a higher standard than the rest of the field.

Does anyone know who reported it?

[retiredguy123]

But there are marquee groups. The issue is should they be treated differently and held to a higher standard than the rest of the field.

Does anyone know who reported it?
The answer is to get rid of marquee groups. The pairings should be selected randomly. That is how you treat all players equally.

But the player caused the ball to move. What difference does it make how it was reported?

[Tvflguy]

I know - rules are rules. But if I was Golf King I'd allow a bit of flex in this one. A ball rotates 1degree and a closeup camera catches it. Or a bunker back swing hits a grain of sand.... then it takes 10+minutes for a rule official to judge. Yikes enough already. Was the touch intentional? Did it affect play or benefit the player in ANY way? I'm all for some flex on this.

Don't' hate me - just MO.

[BrianL99]

He said that he didn't see it move. If not for the camera, there would not have been a penalty. If every player has a camera focused on every shot and every practice swing, it would be a fair ruling. The vast majority of players do not have a camera focused on every shot or practice swing. He shouldn't be penalized if he is in a marquee group.

But there are marquee groups. The issue is should they be treated differently and held to a higher standard than the rest of the field.

Does anyone know who reported it?

I know - rules are rules. But if I was Golf King I'd allow a bit of flex in this one. A ball rotates 1degree and a closeup camera catches it. Or a bunker back swing hits a grain of sand.... then it takes 10+minutes for a rule official to judge. Yikes enough already. Was the touch intentional? Did it affect play or benefit the player in ANY way? I'm all for some flex on this.

Don't' hate me - just MO.

The Rules specifically address all of the above and have for many years.

Lowry made a mistake. He never should have made a practice swing, anywhere near that golf ball.

[golfing eagles]

The Rules specifically address all of the above and have for many years.

Lowry made a mistake. He never should have made a practice swing, anywhere near that golf ball.

Exactly. Sometimes the rules are harsh----Dustin Johnston in the "bunker" on 18 at whistling straights costing him a major, Lexi with the infamous 4 shot penalty. Other times the players use the rules to great advantage---Robert McIntyre's so called sprinkler head at last year's Scottish open, Tiger having 20 people move a boulder.

Golf sometimes is inherently unfair---think about who had significantly better weather this week---obviously the late-early group. Given the way Scotties ball was skidding after great shots, I think he would have been 2-3 shots better without the rain--but that's the random element.

So those that are looking for fairness in TV coverage, keep in mind that coverage is a show, and people do not want to see 18 holes of James Hong. They want to see Scottie and Rory, Xander and JT---hence "marquis groups". Yes, the cameras may catch something that they wouldn't on the first group out, but those players also make tens of millions.

[retiredguy123]

///

[dewilson58]

At the end of every round, I assess myself a two stroke penalty just in case I missed something.

[SHIBUMI]

A rule is a rule, once it is known to be broken, it is broken

Patrick Reed in bunker, if not seen would have never called on self

Once a crime is committed any evidence will create a penalty.

Golf Coverage and announcers are unimpressive, uninspiring, too bad, but thats a rule of life, things change, hate the marquee groups want to see shots not someone eating a banana or health food drink. Cover the good shots.



Should it have been a penalty?

And should it be two strokes?

One for causing it to move?
And one for not replacing it?

If you don’t see it move, how can you replace it?

And not every shot of every player is shown close up on camera. Players should be treated equally.


British Open: Shane Lowry penalized 2 shots in golf rules conundrum - Yahoo Sports (https://sports.yahoo.com/golf/article/british-open-shane-lowry-penalized-2-shots-in-golf-rules-conundrum-181437389.html)

[txfan]

Yes, I agree with the penalty. The only problem with it is he wasn't stopped from hitting the shot quickly enough to incur only a one-shot penalty.

These guys get a lot of benefits that we wouldn't get:
If they hit it into the grandstands, free drop with no penalty. Us? No grandstands. Play it down.
If they hit behind the grandstands, free drop with no penalty. Us? What grandstands? Play it down.
When they hit it off course in the deep weeds, etc., there are spotters who mark the location, so the player doesn't lose his/her ball. Us? Good luck finding any ball we hit into that stuff without knowing how far downrange it went, or how far off course it went.

Especially on a Links course, there are plenty of visual cues for the pros, like grandstands, camera towers, crowds, that help in sight lines. Us? An empty field with what may look like a sliver of mown area to hit toward.

They have caddies. Us? Maybe sometimes.

Golf is the one sport with a unique honor system to call penalties on oneself. The scrutiny of the camera angles is the only way to protect the integrity of the game. If he'd been granted immunity from that penalty, the rest of the field would've questioned the ruling relative to their own positions on the leaderboard.

Did the ball movement make a difference in his shot? No. Was the integrity of the game of Golf protected, yes.

[Rainger99]

I understand that a rule was broken. But golf continually changes and updates the rules.

What was the purpose of the rule? Was it intentional? Did Lowry gain any advantage from breaking the rule?

Rules are changed.

About five years ago golf changed the rule for replacing a ball that moves on the putting green.

If the committee finds that it wasn’t intentional and that there was no advantage, should this rule be changed?

And finally, are rulings like this good for the game and do they grow the game?

[BrianL99]

I understand that a rule was broken. But golf continually changes and updates the rules.

What was the purpose of the rule? Was it intentional? Did Lowry gain any advantage from breaking the rule?

Rules are changed.

About five years ago golf changed the rule for replacing a ball that moves on the putting green.

If the committee finds that it wasn’t intentional and that there was no advantage, should this rule be changed?

And finally, are rulings like this good for the game and do they grow the game?

Here you go.

Rules for beginners & those who don't like the real rules.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

I have played/ fun and competed against professionals and they all know the rules, they all know the grey areas, and most play to the dark edge of the grey area, for the psychological perceived advantage. Some go over the dark edge, most don't.

But sports requires rules and officials because the game is played with humans. . .

The problem is that there are many ways to cheat, The problem i have with the golf rules is even when I am being honest, not trying to cheat, and I don't see something / i don't feel something, someone else tells me it happened and i get penalized, it appears to me to be just a different point of view. . . remember, its not cheating if you truly believe it didn't happen. . .

John Cook related when a course official came up to him and assessed him a penalty for double hit out of a bunker. Cookie just said, "I never felt it, but whatever you say" Sometimes it just comes down to a different viewing angle to interpret the infraction. again, humans interpreting the rules from a different point of view. sometimes one angle of view can see it and another can't see it.

Golf rules were created when there was no TV cameras, no officials, and just two to four golfers together. . . so the origin of rules makes sense. How they are held over today / with cameras etc, may mean adjusting a few . .

but either way, penalty or no penalty, the golfer still must make the shot. . .

[BrianL99]

Golf rules were created when there was no TV cameras, no officials, and just two to four golfers together. . . so the origin of rules makes sense. How they are held over today / with cameras etc, may mean adjusting a few . .


They are constantly adjusted and were twice adjusted specifically to address your points above. Once in 2011 and again in 2014.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

They are constantly adjusted and were twice adjusted specifically to address your points above. Once in 2011 and again in 2014.

not disagreeing, just my opinion is that there will still be more changes, not that the prior two are the only two/last two

[BrianL99]

not disagreeing, just my opinion is that there will still be more changes, not that the prior two are the only two/last two

You're right. It keeps getting more and more complicated. The 18 Rules have Golf have now been modified to 1000's of pages of interpretations and decisions.

Here's an example of crazy rules.

Par 4 over a hill. Landing zone is over the hill and blind to the Tee Box. Water hazard over the hill, towards the right side.

Player A crushes it over the hill and says, "****, probably reached the water".

Player B hits it over the hill, closer to the center of the fairway.

Both players walk to their respective landing areas.

Player A announces that he's found his ball, safe. Player B is still looking for his.

Player A hits his approach shot onto the Green.

Player B can't find his ball. No evidence it went into the hazard, so he goes back to the Tee and hits Shot #3.

Player B hits his approach onto the Green, closer than Player A.

Player A goes to make his putt and announces he hit the wrong ball in the fairway and the ball he hit to the Green, is actually Player B's ball.

Sort it out for scoring purposes :loco::loco:

[USN-Retired]

At the end of every round, I assess myself a two stroke penalty just in case I missed something.
So you’re padding your handicap?🤔🤔

[SHIBUMI]

Match Play.... B wins the hole, Player A gone minute he hit b's ball even if found out later


You're right. It keeps getting more and more complicated. The 18 Rules have Golf have now been modified to 1000's of pages of interpretations and decisions.

Here's an example of crazy rules.

Par 4 over a hill. Landing zone is over the hill and blind to the Tee Box. Water hazard over the hill, towards the right side.

Player A crushes it over the hill and says, "****, probably reached the water".

Player B hits it over the hill, closer to the center of the fairway.

Both players walk to their respective landing areas.

Player A announces that he's found his ball, safe. Player B is still looking for his.

Player A hits his approach shot onto the Green.

Player B can't find his ball. No evidence it went into the hazard, so he goes back to the Tee and hits Shot #3.

Player B hits his approach onto the Green, closer than Player A.

Player A goes to make his putt and announces he hit the wrong ball in the fairway and the ball he hit to the Green, is actually Player B's ball.

Sort it out for scoring purposes :loco::loco:

[fgsJr]

"Golf is the closest game
to the game we call life. You get bad breaks from good shots; you get good breaks from bad shots— but you have to play
the ball where it lies."
…Bobby Jones

Interacting with Mother Nature is what makes golf such a rewarding experience, oftentimes disconcerting but always challenging… and entertaining!

[BrianL99]

Sort it out for scoring purposes :loco::loco:

Match Play.... B wins the hole, Player A gone minute he hit b's ball even if found out later

There's no "scoring" in Match Play ... it's Win, Loss, Halve.

Besides, it's too easy of question if it was Match Play.

[SHIBUMI]

A scores 8. assumes hits green in 2 and two putts

B scores 4. assumes hit green in 2 and 2 putts

B plays from spot that A hit his ball, hits green in 2 and 2 putts

A goes back to tee, hitting 3 fourth shot on green and 2 putts equals 6 with 2 stroke penalty for 8

its called equity, A's ball is lost, can't assume its in the water not enough evidence..... B deserves to play where his original ball was

neither teed up from the next tee so can correct the situation...boom





There's no "scoring" in Match Play ... it's Win, Loss, Halve.

Besides, it's too easy of question if it was Match Play.

[BrianL99]

A scores 8. assumes hits green in 2 and two putts

B scores 4. assumes hit green in 2 and 2 putts

B plays from spot that A hit his ball, hits green in 2 and 2 putts

A goes back to tee, hitting 3 fourth shot on green and 2 putts equals 6 with 2 stroke penalty for 8

its called equity, A's ball is lost, can't assume its in the water not enough evidence..... B deserves to play where his original ball was

neither teed up from the next tee so can correct the situation...boom

I agree with your reasoning, but the Decision (which I can't find), came down differently.

Once you put a 2nd ball into play, there's no option to return to your original ball, regardless of circumstances. A player's obligation is to identify his ball. The fact that a fellow competitor hit his ball, doesn't relieve him of the responsibility.

The USGA hardly ever "rules in equity", as their position has always been, golf is an unfair game.

(To be fair, there may not even be an actual decision on this one. I read the scenario many years ago, on a Rules Forum. I was with your opinion for Player A and was laughed at. If I remember correctly, it was submitted to the USGA as a hypothetical)

[Dilligas]

At the end of every round, I assess myself a two stroke penalty just in case I missed something.
Ohhh, a sandbagger?

[SHIBUMI]

A proceeded correctly once realized wrong ball, Back to the tee, with a 2 stroke penalty, plus stroke and distance, hits green in 4, 2 putts for 6, 2 stroke penalty is 8

B however, must take stroke and distance penalty for not finding ball in three minutes, regardless of circumstance, hits green in 4 with 2 putts gives him a 6.

If A doesn't make the correction before hitting his next tee ball he is disqualified.

If B makes the correction and hits a ball from the original spot, he has hit his 5th shot, as his procedure was correct because ball not found in 3 minutes, so he is on the green in
5 with 2putts for a 7 and a 2 stroke penalty for hitting a wrong ball makes him a 9

He can go to the next tee either way and not be disqualified

Now once this wrong ball has been found out, B, in a court of law could justify assault on A,
with any club he chooses, as he believes A did it on purpose, and has thusly lost his mind.

Ah the pressure of golf:ho:



I agree with your reasoning, but the Decision (which I can't find), came down differently.

Once you put a 2nd ball into play, there's no option to return to your original ball, regardless of circumstances. A player's obligation is to identify his ball. The fact that a fellow competitor hit his ball, doesn't relieve him of the responsibility.

The USGA hardly ever "rules in equity", as their position has always been, golf is an unfair game.

(To be fair, there may not even be an actual decision on this one. I read the scenario many years ago, on a Rules Forum. I was with your opinion for Player A and was laughed at. If I remember correctly, it was submitted to the USGA as a hypothetical)

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Shane Lowry's ball movement was very much less egregious than Windham Clarke addressing his ball, and tamping down the grass next to the ball with his club.

After controversy, Wyndham Clark calls for simpler rules (https://golf.com/news/controversy-wyndham-clark-calls-simpler-rules/)

Should have Clarke been assessed a penalty for improving his swing path? or does improving one's lie only include moving the ball or remarking a ball in any other location than the original? One cannot improve swing paths with branches or other natural impediments, except tamping down grasses??

These are the inconsistencies in the human judging which are blamed on the rules, and yet, it's the appearance of inconsistent application of rules by humans which is the cause of the confusion/blame?

definitely a first world problem for us, nonetheless. .

[BrianL99]

Shane Lowry's ball movement was very much less egregious than Windham Clarke addressing his ball, and tamping down the grass next to the ball with his club.

After controversy, Wyndham Clark calls for simpler rules (https://golf.com/news/controversy-wyndham-clark-calls-simpler-rules/)

.

Wyndham Clark is well known as a POS.

5 days ago, Oakmont banned him from the golf course, based on his destruction in their locker room, during the US Open. Wyndham still hadn't apologized to the club, nor offered to pay for the damage.

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2025/07/16/wyndham-clark-banned-oakmont-country-club-us-open/85234322007/)

Curiously, Kevin Kisner mentioned the situation during BO coverage this weekend and is getting pummeled for his stupid comment.

Access Denied (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/british-open-2025-kevin-kisner-wyndham-clark-oakmont-situation)

[golfing eagles]

Wyndham Clark is well known as a POS.

5 days ago, Oakmont banned him from the golf course, based on his destruction in their locker room, during the US Open. Wyndham still hadn't apologized to the club, nor offered to pay for the damage.

Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2025/07/16/wyndham-clark-banned-oakmont-country-club-us-open/85234322007/)

Curiously, Kevin Kisner mentioned the situation during BO coverage this weekend and is getting pummeled for his stupid comment.

Access Denied (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/british-open-2025-kevin-kisner-wyndham-clark-oakmont-situation)

I do however agree with the previous post. It seems more and more common for players to bring 2 clubs over to their ball and then place (or press one down) behind the ball, and then the other, sometimes 2 or 3 times. I can only imagine that it improves their swing path, if only slightly. Maybe not as much as Reed in that waste area at the Hero, but to some degree. (Unless they are using that new memory turf grass :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:)

[BrianL99]

I do however agree with the previous post. It seems more and more common for players to bring 2 clubs over to their ball and then place (or press one down) behind the ball, and then the other, sometimes 2 or 3 times. I can only imagine that it improves their swing path, if only slightly. Maybe not as much as Reed in that waste area at the Hero, but to some degree. (Unless they are using that new memory turf grass :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:)


Gary Player was the KING of improved lies, throughout his career. He was would set up behind a ball in the rough with a fairway wood ... tamp it down a bit, then switch to an iron. If you recall, Tom Watson called Player out at one of the old Skins Games, for cheating. There's also the story (& likely true) of how he won the 1974 US Open. Golf: The paradox that is Gary Player | The Independent | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/golf-the-paradox-that-is-gary-player-1329010.html)

Reed has always been cheat, going back to his days at Georgia, when he was thrown off the Golf Team.

I spend a few minutes with Reed and he's great with golf fans, at least in my experience ... but he is a cheater.

[Rainger99]

Shane Lowry's ball movement was very much less egregious than Windham Clarke addressing his ball, and tamping down the grass next to the ball with his club.

After controversy, Wyndham Clark calls for simpler rules (https://golf.com/news/controversy-wyndham-clark-calls-simpler-rules/)

Should have Clarke been assessed a penalty for improving his swing path? or does improving one's lie only include moving the ball or remarking a ball in any other location than the original? One cannot improve swing paths with branches or other natural impediments, except tamping down grasses??

These are the inconsistencies in the human judging which are blamed on the rules, and yet, it's the appearance of inconsistent application of rules by humans which is the cause of the confusion/blame?

definitely a first world problem for us, nonetheless. .

The infraction??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErJjYZqGswA

[justjim]

At the end of every round, I assess myself a two stroke penalty just in case I missed something.

I get it. Great satire!

[Badger 2006]

The rule is the rule. Personally, I agree with the ruling. The video is very clear that the player caused the ball to move. It's a game with rules.

Not if all of the field does not have cameras watching their every move. You can’t “protect the field” if camera scrutiny is selective.

[Badger 2006]

The answer is to get rid of marquee groups. The pairings should be selected randomly. That is how you treat all players equally.

But the player caused the ball to move. What difference does it make how it was reported?

The players and officials should be the only ones to call infractions. The camera coverage is selective and in golf terms does not “protect the field”, which it must.

[retiredguy123]

The players and officials should be the only ones to call infractions. The camera coverage is selective and in golf terms does not “protect the field”, which it must.
Please clarify.

The officials did call the infraction. But, without a video, the officials would never see an infraction.

When you say players should call an infraction, are you just referring to the player who hits the shot, other players in the group, or players who are not in the group?

Are you saying that, if the camera clearly shows an infraction, it should be completely ignored? I don't think that approach would go over well with the spectators and television viewers.

[Old Traveller]

In match play, hitting your opponent's ball results in a loss of hole penalty. Player A loses the hole.

In medal or stroke play, Player A takes a two stroke penalty for hitting the wrong ball. Player A then takes another penalty for hitting his first ball in the water. If they deem Player A's ball as lost than stroke and distance in addition to the 2 stroke penalty. Player B then drops his ball as close as possible to where Player A had hit the wrong ball.

[Old Traveller]

I was under the impression that a camera view was no longer admissible evidence. I also thought that either the player, his caddy, opponent, opponent's caddy or an on the course rules official had to witness the infraction, otherwise no penalty. Maybe the R & A has a different rule.

[JGVillages]

Please clarify.

The officials did call the infraction. But, without a video, the officials would never see an infraction.

When you say players should call an infraction, are you just referring to the player who hits the shot, other players in the group, or players who are not in the group?

Are you saying that, if the camera clearly shows an infraction, it should be completely ignored? I don't think that approach would go over well with the spectators and television viewers.

So you’re wanting to “unoprotect the field to keep spectators happy. In the NFL if every “non call” that was caught on camera had to be reviewed to satisfy the spectators you’d play the first half one day and the second half the next day.

[BrianL99]

I was under the impression that a camera view was no longer admissible evidence. I also thought that either the player, his caddy, opponent, opponent's caddy or an on the course rules official had to witness the infraction, otherwise no penalty. Maybe the R & A has a different rule.

See rule attached

[retiredguy123]

So you’re wanting to “unoprotect the field to keep spectators happy. In the NFL if every “non call” that was caught on camera had to be reviewed to satisfy the spectators you’d play the first half one day and the second half the next day.
Apple and oranges. In golf, players are responsible for enforcing the rules and assessing a penalty on themselves. In football, the players are not responsible for enforcing any rules. The officials are charged with watching the game and enforcing the rules.

[retiredguy123]

I was under the impression that a camera view was no longer admissible evidence. I also thought that either the player, his caddy, opponent, opponent's caddy or an on the course rules official had to witness the infraction, otherwise no penalty. Maybe the R & A has a different rule.
Then why was there a penalty? Apparently, the video is the only evidence.

[Old Traveller]

Shane Lowry agreed to assess himself the penalty so as not to ever be called a cheat. I'll bet in his heart he knows he didn't do anything wrong.

[retiredguy123]

Shane Lowry agreed to assess himself the penalty so as not to ever be called a cheat. I'll bet in his heart he knows he didn't do anything wrong.
Really? If the video is not admissible evidence, then why was it shown to the officials?

The new rule limits the use of a video, but they do not prohibit it:

"New Decision 34-3/10 implements two standards for Rules committees to limit the use of video: 1) when video reveals evidence that could not reasonably be seen with the “naked eye,” and 2) when players use their “reasonable judgment” to determine a specific location when applying the Rules."

I think the the first exception would apply to this situation because the player could not see the ball when taking a practice swing. My opinion.