Significant financial distress

[ROCKETMAN]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

[vintageogauge]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

In my opinion any corporation that files bankruptcy should be made to use their personal finances to pay off as much debt as possible before stiffing their creditors, there should be no such thing as Corporate Veil, it's simply a legal way to steal from creditors most of which, in most cases, are small privately owned companies or individuals. The bankruptcy laws should be gone over and re-written to protect creditors not just debtors.

[opinionist]

Overbilling seems like a criminal operation to me.
Bankruptcy would allow them to escape civil liabilities.
Criminal liabilities are not so easy to avoid.

[Bill14564]

In my opinion any corporation that files bankruptcy should be made to use their personal finances to pay off as much debt as possible before stiffing their creditors, there should be no such thing as Corporate Veil, it's simply a legal way to steal from creditors most of which, in most cases, are small privately owned companies or individuals. The bankruptcy laws should be gone over and re-written to protect creditors not just debtors.

Since some/much/all the money received paid employees , does this mean you believe every employee should have to help pay off the debt?

[Aces4]

Since some/much/all the money received paid employees , does this mean you believe every employee should have to help pay off the debt?

That's ridiculous, the overpayment was not specifically tagged for the wages of employees. Think PROFIT and how that profit was spent!:ohdear:

[spinner1001]

In my opinion any corporation that files bankruptcy should be made to use their personal finances to pay off as much debt as possible before stiffing their creditors, there should be no such thing as Corporate Veil, it's simply a legal way to steal from creditors most of which, in most cases, are small privately owned companies or individuals. The bankruptcy laws should be gone over and re-written to protect creditors not just debtors.

Wants to go back to the days of debtor’s prisons for civil debts

Debtors' prison - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison)

[spinner1001]

That's ridiculous, the overpayment was not specifically tagged for the wages of employees. Think PROFIT and how that profit was spent!:ohdear:

What did the bankruptcy filing specifically tag as paying?

[Bill14564]

That's ridiculous, the overpayment was not specifically tagged for the wages of employees. Think PROFIT and how that profit was spent!:ohdear:

The overpayment was specifically tagged? As what?

Profit is income less expenses. The overpayment went to creditors and employees first and whatever was leftover went to profit. But where did profit go? Is there a door somewhere labeled “profit” with a pile of cash behind it? No.

I think I might understand what the poster was getting at but any attempt to claw back (that’s the term these days, right?) the money out of anyone’s wallet is going to get messy.

[ROCKETMAN]

The person in charge, Neil Luria, is concerned that with 60,000 patients, didn’t know it was that big, with Oct. coming up when you can change plans, how many will stay with the villages. I doubt this will be settled by then. With Humana scheduled to take over, some people are not huge Humana fans.

[tophcfa]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

Dam, they must have already blown through the $39 million in DIP financing approved by the bankruptcy judge just over two weeks ago? Not surprising, but also not good. TVH stated in the latest court filing that more money is needed to sustain operations, and further stated that the only way to realistically avoid a shutdown is for the court to immediately allow TVH to proceed with the proposed sale to Humana’s Centerwell. This obviously cries of a desperate and dire situation and clearly highlights the bigger picture of available Health Care Service for the future of the rapidly growing senior population in the entire area. TVH is trying everything possible to rapidly fight their way out of a hornets nest filled with financial risk, liabilities, and the associated public relations disaster. There doesn’t appear to be any way this is going to turn out positive for Homeowners who have invested a significant chunk of their retirement portfolio in the Villages, ouch!

[LuvtheVillages]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

I expect that Villages Health received most, maybe all, of the $351 million. That also means that Medicare has stopped sending monthly payments to Villages Health, and applying the monthly funds towards the debt. So, Villages Health has almost no income. That's why they need the loan to sustain operations.

[vintageogauge]

Since some/much/all the money received paid employees , does this mean you believe every employee should have to help pay off the debt?

No what I mean is that the owners of the corporation should use their personal assets to payoff debts of their corporation.

[golfing eagles]

Overbilling seems like a criminal operation to me.
Bankruptcy would allow them to escape civil liabilities.
Criminal liabilities are not so easy to avoid.

Overbilling is a "criminal operation"????

There have been posts that indicate a complete lack of understanding of the situation, but this one has taken over first place.

[golfing eagles]

No what I mean is that the owners of the corporation should use their personal assets to payoff debts of their corporation.

Equally ridiculous. I own stock in General Motors. As a part owner, if GM goes bankrupt, I should be forced to use my retirement funds to pay off their debts??? That idea would go over like a lead balloon.

[jimhoward]

In my opinion any corporation that files bankruptcy should be made to use their personal finances to pay off as much debt as possible before stiffing their creditors, there should be no such thing as Corporate Veil, it's simply a legal way to steal from creditors most of which, in most cases, are small privately owned companies or individuals. The bankruptcy laws should be gone over and re-written to protect creditors not just debtors.

Who are "they"? The stockholders? For publicly traded corporations that is you and I. I assume you don't want that. So then I guess we just wont allow privately held corporations any more. Quite a few drawbacks to that.

[Rainger99]

This year's open enrollment period will be interesting. Do you want to sign up for a plan in which you really don't know what is happening to the doctors in the plan?

It would be nice if they had an open forum to explain what is going on and to reassure patients that TVH will be there in 2026. But I doubt they will start being open and transparent now.

[Topspinmo]

The person in charge, Neil Luria, is concerned that with 60,000 patients, didn’t know it was that big, with Oct. coming up when you can change plans, how many will stay with the villages. I doubt this will be settled by then. With Humana scheduled to take over, some people are not huge Humana fans.

And some are not Hugh UHC fans either.

[Babubhat]

More useless undefined terms. File bankruptcy and move on. It happens thousands of times a day

[vintageogauge]

Wants to go back to the days of debtor’s prisons for civil debts

Debtors' prison - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison)

Your reply makes no sense at all.

[vintageogauge]

Equally ridiculous. I own stock in General Motors. As a part owner, if GM goes bankrupt, I should be forced to use my retirement funds to pay off their debts??? That idea would go over like a lead balloon.

Excuse me, add the words "privately held corporations"

[vintageogauge]

Who are "they"? The stockholders? For publicly traded corporations that is you and I. I assume you don't want that. So then I guess we just wont allow privately held corporations any more. Quite a few drawbacks to that.

I'm referring to privately held corporations that file and end up coming out smelling like a rose while all of their creditors suffer.

[VAtoFLA]

Excuse me, add the words "privately held corporations"

Still silly. What you are suggesting then is an uneven playing field between corporations traded on public stock exchanges vs those not traded on those exchanges. Mega corporations don't need any additional advantages.

[retiredguy123]

No what I mean is that the owners of the corporation should use their personal assets to payoff debts of their corporation.
There are no owners of a corporation. A corporation is a separate and distinct taxable entity. That is why people form a corporation in the first place. If you eliminate the corporate veil, no one would ever form a corporation.

[golfing eagles]

Excuse me, add the words "privately held corporations"

Still ridiculous. Under those terms, all venture capitalism would come to a grinding halt---no new factories, no new construction, no new ideas---just unlimited liability for anyone still willing to invest.

[jimhoward]

Excuse me, add the words "privately held corporations"

Most privately held corporations are small businesses (less the 500 employees). There are some exceptions, Mars, Publix, and Cargill come to mind, but most are small. Often times the personal assets of the owners in those small companies are pledged against corporate debt.

In the case of Villages Health, its not even a corporation it an LLC. Now if you want to talk LLCs I think there is a argument to be made concerning assets of owners. There the owners are getting the benefit of liability protection, but without incurring the cost of double taxation, and with lower cost of administration. That seems like too good a deal.

[vintageogauge]

There are no owners of a corporation. A corporation is a separate and distinct taxable entity. That is why people form a corporation in the first place. If you eliminate the corporate veil, no one would ever form a corporation.

Of course they would as there are tax advantages in having a corporation.

[Aces4]

The overpayment was specifically tagged? As what?

Profit is income less expenses. The overpayment went to creditors and employees first and whatever was leftover went to profit. But where did profit go? Is there a door somewhere labeled “profit” with a pile of cash behind it? No.

I think I might understand what the poster was getting at but any attempt to claw back (that’s the term these days, right?) the money out of anyone’s wallet is going to get messy.

Yeah, everyone knows what profit is on the ledger. Money leftover after the basic, Medicare/Insurance earned income has been applied to pay expenses, including salaries. Any profit snagged over the actual costs and payments would be utilized in other capacities. That door labeled profit would be determined in a hurry with a decent audit and total review of how money was spent after the basic cost of doing business was determined.

[Angelhug52]

So, do we all start looking for new doctors?

[drducat]

To make matters worse United Healthcare has filed an objections over the sale. They feel their contracture obligation should have put them first on the list to buy..plus they believe they are the largest creditor.

So yes it is time to look for alternative health care

[G.R.I.T.S.]

I’m not very bright but I could not navigate the medicare/insurance business with all the constant changes every year. I’m surprised there are not more instances like the VHC all over the country.

[Worldseries27]

overbilling is a "criminal operation"????

There have been posts that indicate a complete lack of understanding of the situation, but this one has taken over first place.
i agree. Too many hanging judges in the world. Mistakes are not crimes. If it can be saved, do so, if not, replace with better options. Let the courts decide the merits later. Patients need help not turmoil

[bmcgowan13]

Equally ridiculous. I own stock in General Motors. As a part owner, if GM goes bankrupt, I should be forced to use my retirement funds to pay off their debts??? That idea would go over like a lead balloon.

But didn't you kind of already use your own retirement funds to pay off their debits? If you bought 100 shares of stock at $300--and the stock craters to $2 per share....They used $29,800 of *your* money to pay off their debts.

I understand publicly traded companies may be a bit different-stockholders enjoy the profits and suffer the losses. A private company the owner (be it one person or a family trust) enjoys *all* the profits.

If the Suleiman family (a private company) decides to experiment and go "outside the bubble" and they purchase land beyond Eastport--build (and finance) a new restaurant--and the restaurant goes bust because of their unlucky decision; should we still expect the family to make good on payments to builder, bank, suppliers, contractors, and employees?

Or can they just say "Sorry-soft opening. We are declaring bankruptcy for *that* restaurant." Our would we expect them to step up and do the right thing and use family money to pay off their debt?

It would be opportune to borrow money and keep just the profits but declare bankruptcy anytime you have losses.

I wish Vegas casinos operated like that...LOL

[golfing eagles]

But didn't you kind of already use your own retirement funds to pay off their debits? If you bought 100 shares of stock at $300--and the stock craters to $2 per share....They used $29,800 of *your* money to pay off their debts.

I understand publicly traded companies may be a bit different-stockholders enjoy the profits and suffer the losses. A private company the owner (be it one person or a family trust) enjoys *all* the profits.

If the Suleiman family (a private company) decides to experiment and go "outside the bubble" and they purchase land beyond Eastport--build (and finance) a new restaurant--and the restaurant goes bust because of their unlucky decision; should we still expect the family to make good on payments to builder, bank, suppliers, contractors, and employees?

Or can they just say "Sorry-soft opening. We are declaring bankruptcy for *that* restaurant." Our would we expect them to step up and do the right thing and use family money to pay off their debt?

It would be opportune to borrow money and keep just the profits but declare bankruptcy anytime you have losses.

I wish Vegas casinos operated like that...LOL

Totally depends on whether they started a separate corporation for their new restaurant. I am, however, at a loss to understand how putting up personal assets for a business venture is "doing the right thing". If it worked that way, no one would ever open a new restaurant or other business. Would you??????

[BillyGrown]

An independent audit of the corporation needs to be done and those receiving income through IRS filings need to be tagged for paying off the bills of this bankruptcy filing.

We know for sure Humana is doing an audit before spending their money and closing. They will identify the leaks and any misspent funds.

[eeroger]

This year's open enrollment period will be interesting. Do you want to sign up for a plan in which you really don't know what is happening to the doctors in the plan?

It would be nice if they had an open forum to explain what is going on and to reassure patients that TVH will be there in 2026. But I doubt they will start being open and transparent now.
What will happen to those who were grandfathered into TVH without signing up for an advantage plan. My husband was over 65 when TVH switched to the advantage plan, so he was allowed to stay in the system with std Medicare and Tricare.

[Altavia]

I’m not very bright but I could not navigate the medicare/insurance business with all the constant changes every year. I’m surprised there are not more instances like the VHC all over the country.

Given the complexity and ambiguities coding a patient, is it likely most any medical facility would have similar audit results under the same level of scrutiny?

[oldtimes]

All I know is that my doctor has already “retired “

[Pat2015]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.
They were overpaid that money based on claims that they submitted. It will be interesting to see if this was up coding, services not rendered, falsification of medical conditions for higher payments, etc. United Healthcare seems to be holding the sale which is definitely an issue. Not sure as to who is lending them $24 million dollars, as how can that be repaid? Also, are they even getting money from Medicare at this point given the huge overpayment; what’s going to happen when vendors who haven’t been paid stop servicing them; and what happens when they ultimately go through the $24 million? Is there a chance that the clinics will end up having to shutdown for some period of time?

[Haggar]

There are no owners of a corporation. A corporation is a separate and distinct taxable entity. That is why people form a corporation in the first place. If you eliminate the corporate veil, no one would ever form a corporation.

Please explain why you say there are no owners of a corporation. Who are the shareholders if not the owners?

[Rainger99]

Is there a chance that the clinics will end up having to shutdown for some period of time?

Great question.

It would be nice if the owner gave us some answers.

[Haggar]

Most privately held corporations are small businesses (less the 500 employees). There are some exceptions, Mars, Publix, and Cargill come to mind, but most are small. Often times the personal assets of the owners in those small companies are pledged against corporate debt.

In the case of Villages Health, its not even a corporation it an LLC. Now if you want to talk LLCs I think there is a argument to be made concerning assets of owners. There the owners are getting the benefit of liability protection, but without incurring the cost of double taxation, and with lower cost of administration. That seems like too good a deal.

There is no federal income tax return.

Single member LLC's can be disregarded for tax purposes and the income or the loss reported on their personal return. Multiple member LLC's are reported as either partnerships or corporations. If they have less than 100 members they can elect to taxes as a S Corp avoiding double taxation. Most large LLC's are taxed as C Corporations..

Most small business are able to avoid double taxation. Most large businesses don't.

There is no lower administrative cost because they are a LLC.

The concept of not being able to pierce the corporate veil is what protects investors and allows them to be able to invest in small businesses which may grow larger. Remove the corporate veil and you can say goodbye to many corporate startups and the economy

[retiredguy123]

Please explain why you say there are no owners of a corporation. Who are the shareholders if not the owners?
It may be mostly semantics, but according to LegalZoom:

"A corporation is a legal entity that exists independently of its owners. This corporate structure protects shareholders from being held personally liable for business debts. Corporate status also means that the company can, on its own behalf, enter into and enforce contracts, buy and sell property and own assets, and make political contributions."

[Joecooool]

To make matters worse United Healthcare has filed an objections over the sale. They feel their contracture obligation should have put them first on the list to buy..plus they believe they are the largest creditor.

So yes it is time to look for alternative health careAwesome. They are also charged with overcharging Medicare.

UnitedHealth Doctored Medicare Records, Overbilled U.S. By $1 Billion, Feds Claim - KFF Health News (https://kffhealthnews.org/news/unitedhealth-doctored-medicare-records-overbilled-u-s-by-1-billion-feds-claim/)

[kingofbeer]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.
350 million. not billion!

[Stu from NYC]

Given the complexity and ambiguities coding a patient, is it likely most any medical facility would have similar audit results under the same level of scrutiny?

For a small sum can see that happening but when we are talking about hundreds of millions seems unlikely.

[Joecooool]

Mistakes are not crimes.


LOL, they sure can be. Have you never heard of "Ignorantia juris non excusat"?

This Latin phrase translates to "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". It means that individuals cannot escape legal responsibility just because they were unaware of the law. Whether intentional or not, violations of laws can still lead to consequences, especially in highly regulated sectors like healthcare.

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat)

In order to run a Medicare Advantage plan, strict compliance with federal regulations is required, especially in areas like coding and billing. The government mandates that professionals employed in these roles are properly trained and certified by recognized, independent agencies. Certifications like the Certified Professional Coder (CPC), awarded by the American Academy of Professional Coders (AAPC), or the Certified Coding Specialist (CCS) offered by the American Health Information Management Association (AHIMA), are crucial for ensuring compliance with Medicare's complex rules.

Individuals working in healthcare billing and compliance must also hold certifications like Certified in Healthcare Compliance (CHC) from the Compliance Certification Board. These certifications ensure accuracy and legitimacy in billing processes, specifically to mitigate the risk of errors that could lead to legal or financial penalties.

This is not just a matter of following protocol, it's a legal requirement. The Medicare program is under constant oversight by agencies like CMS (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services), and any failure to comply with the established rules, even if accidental, can result in significant repercussions. Mistakes in coding, billing, or compliance, even if unintentional, can lead to fraud charges, fines, and even criminal liability.

So mistakes can be criminal if they lead to fraudulent claims, improper reimbursements, or violations of federal standards.

[Snowbirdtobe]

In my post Villages Health where did all the money go back on July 12 I said.
"I noticed that the rent was paid to TV. The rent looks to be 1,135,000 per month, but no rent is forecast for October, Nov, or Dec in the pro-forma DIP budget."
I''ll bet most companies stiff the landlord as part of the effort to conserve cash especially when the landlord is part of the "family". I'll bet there are other issues that an audit will show up.
Sucking money out of a bankrupt company before filing might be an issue.
Many people in the past have said they were experts and I didn't know about healthcare or Medicare.
here is what I posted on July 14.
"If the money was spent on making the Brownwood facility a wonderful place or burned in the parking lot that should have no effect on the ability for the new owner of serve the patients."
Follow the money.

[vintageogauge]

So, do we all start looking for new doctors?

Most of their doctors already retired once and are/were working part time. The PA's are the ones that will get hurt the most from this.

[Snowbirdtobe]

The patients, in my opinion, will be hurt the most. If you have incorrect medical information in your file it may STOP you from transferring to a Medicare Supplement Plan.
For example BCBS said if you take more than 50 units a day of insulin a day they will not take you.
Transfer to a MA plan is possible despite your health history.

[Tobys Dad]

[QUOTE=Worldseries27;2449307]i agree. Too many hanging judges in the world. Mistakes are not crimes. If it can be saved, do so, if not, replace with better options. Let the courts decide the merits later. Patients need help not turmoil[/QUOT
You say ‘’mistakes”, possible, but outright theft may be more appropriate. IMHO:shrug:

[Ruger2506]

The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

I think it’s safe to say The Villages healthcare was stealing government monies. Not sure how it was laundered or whatever but I’m pretty sure it was stolen. They knew exactly what they were doing.

[ROCKETMAN]

Unfortunately we won’t have any source other than villages news to know what is going on. Daily sun had one article and I doubt until situation resolved, won’t see any more. If we didn’t have village news we wouldn’t know that Mr. Luria is getting $150,000 a month to oversee the bankruptcy and possible Humana takeover. Don’t think united health care will let this go without a fight.

[golfing eagles]

I think it’s safe to say The Villages healthcare was stealing government monies. Not sure how it was laundered or whatever but I’m pretty sure it was stolen. They knew exactly what they were doing.

"Safe" to say that???? "Stole monies"???? "Laundered it"????

Well, in sporting competitions it is best to be confident

So, I suppose that degree of confidence is advantageous in the "TOTV jump to conclusions even though I have no idea what I'm talking about" Olympics.

[Stu from NYC]

"Safe" to say that???? "Stole monies"???? "Laundered it"????

Well, in sporting competitions it is best to be confident

So, I suppose that degree of confidence is advantageous in the "TOTV jump to conclusions even though I have no idea what I'm talking about" Olympics.

Time will tell but would think that these large medical practices will benchmark their results with other practices and notice their profit margins are much higher and wonder why.

[golfing eagles]

Time will tell but would think that these large medical practices will benchmark their results with other practices and notice their profit margins are much higher and wonder why.

The "why" will probably be economy of scale, but time will tell.