Update on Morse Felony Charges in Montana Poaching Case

[Taj44]

For those who are interested in the Morse poaching case (he has 2 felony poaching charges pending in Montana) here is a link to the latest:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_328311e7-6851-512b-9498-a57caadfa9b6.html

The Florida game warden who oversaw operations at Morse's and Rainey's ranch, has forfeited bond to resolve charges in the case. He is expected to be a key witness against Morse and his family and friends.

[Russ_Boston]

Even though I've been accused of being a Morse suck up I find these actions (if guilty) disgusting. I hope that they are not able to 'buy' their way out of penalties. But my guess is that money, once again, will rule the day.

Thanks for the update.

[Taltarzac]

Even though I've been accused of being a Morse suck up I find these actions (if guilty) disgusting. I hope that they are not able to 'buy' their way out of penalties. But my guess is that money, once again, will rule the day.

Thanks for the update.

Think it is more the $600 per hour gaggle of lawyers that the money can afford.

[Carla B]

Isn't it Mark Morse who is involved, not Gary Morse, his father?

[Taltarzac]

Isn't it Mark Morse who is involved, not Gary Morse, his father?

Right. He and some of his family and friends and/or employees.

[redwitch]

Russ, the odds are pretty good that the charges are real. Sadly, these practices (hunting out of season on your own property) are pretty common in big game states. People buy the ranches for the specific purpose of big game hunting. They think the laws don't apply to them because it is their own property. They know the licensing laws, they just don't think they apply to them.

Jail time is very, very rare. Fines are common. Now, if Morse, Rainey, et al. pay the fines and then do the same thing again, you can bet your bottom dollar that Montana will go after them big time and jail will be part of the final outcome. But for the first go-round, it is fines. The reality is that out-of-season hunting is a big money maker for big game states. The hunting licenses are $20K and up, the fines for hunting out of season are priced accordingly. The states don't want to pay for jail/prison time -- they make much more money with the fines.

What I don't understand is why Morse's penalities are so much higher than Rainey's. From everything I've read and from friends in Montana who know the case well, Rainey committed the more heinous offenses. He was the one who allegedly left the carcasses to rot; cut off the legs of an elk to get better pictures. Both hunted out of season. Not sure who was the one who had a couple of carcasses buried.

I do think what occurred is nauseating, but it is not uncommon. It shows a lack of character and, to me, a lack of morality, but it is done all the time. To many hunter/ranch owners, it ranks up there with speeding -- illegal and you pay your ticket if caught, but no big deal. To those who abide by the laws, they cheer when their neighbors are caught but would never dream of reporting them. For law-abiding hunters, these crimes should be punished and are definitely not okay. For non-hunters, these crimes are nauseating.

[Russ_Boston]

Sad to hear that Red - they know it goes on but just wait to catch them so they can collect big fines? I guess I'll never understand hunting for game sport.

[Kelsie52]

Russ I agree with you 100% --I have always thought that hunting would only be a sport if you gave the ANIMAL a gun also !!!

:confused:

[Tbugs]

Charges have been made but no trial has taken place (in a court room) outside of this forum.

If found guilty, there will probably be stiff fines. However, no one has been tried and been found guilty.

This really has no bearing on life in The Villages. Sure, you can say that the Morse family has no morals by shooting out of season on their own property. It does not concern me. Why does it concern you? Just keep any guns away from my pet Panda. He gets mean around hunters.

It is not like an elected official was caught in a sexual tryst. That is a betrayal of public trust - since they are elected by the people. We can all name a few of those - Gov. Spitzer, Mark Foley, David Vitter, and the governors of South Carolina and of New Jersey.

[SALYBOW]

Russ I agree with you 100% --I have always thought that hunting would only be a sport if you gave the ANIMAL a gun also !!!

:confused:

:agree::agree::agree::agree:

The dominion over animals, which the Bible states God gave humans, is often confused with domination. It was the intent that the supieror human species, which is supposed to be superior by virtual of its gift of the ability to reason, be the guardians of the less superior animal species. It never ceases to amaze me that this is so often comfused by the supierior species. That is why when the ARA uses the sport of hunting as a reason to not enforce gun control I find it an argument which is on a slippery slops.

[JimJoe]

Russ I agree with you 100% --I have always thought that hunting would only be a sport if you gave the ANIMAL a gun also !!!

:confused:

I think farms, livestock operations, and meat packing plants should be populated with gun toting animals too.
JJ

[katezbox]

I think farms, livestock operations, and meat packing plants should be populated with gun toting animals too.
JJ

Not to mention leather goods manufacturers...

I have never hunted, but sometimes it keeps a population of animals from starving over the winter. The deer population in many places this year must have had it very hard with all the snow.

If you hunt, eat what you kill and/or share it with others... Venison provides a healthy basis for meals in shelters and soup kitchens...

[Talk Host]

... It does not concern me. .

I'm curious why it doesn't concern you. The man who has been charged with these crimes is in control of your community and will be for a while. If any person is found guilty of any felony, would not all of their activities be suspect?
Maybe I'm wrong.


If a guilty verdict is returned, fines are the most likely outcome, but! One state official was quoted as saying, "this is the largest case of this kind in the history of the state." And, it was reported that there were undercover agents on this case for two years. I'm thinking that there is a possibility that the state is going to make this a real example to others. Perhaps telegraphing that regardless of how much money you have, you can't come to our state and do this, and that you can't buy your way out. If they are found guilty, the state will want to "punish" them. Even a $5,000,000 fine is not punishment to some.

Having said all of that. I hope it's all been a gigantic misunderstanding and the parties are not guilty. I don't want to think that the family that has been held in such high esteem would do anything like this.

JLK

[Russ_Boston]

Charges have been made but no trial has taken place (in a court room) outside of this forum.

If found guilty, there will probably be stiff fines. However, no one has been tried and been found guilty.



I think you need to re-read some of the posts. For example my post said "If guilty" and Red said 'odds are'. Didn't see anyone who said they were guilty without a trial.

I'm not against hunting in general. As Kate says it may be necessary in some cases or used as food in others. I just don't like the 'sport' of it.

[Kelsie52]

I think farms, livestock operations, and meat packing plants should be populated with gun toting animals too.
JJ

Jim --those operations are essential I am talking about the SPORT of hunting for pure pleasure of the kill as it appears Morse and company are accused . I understand population control and the feeding of the hungry.

I just wonder sometimes how many people would be shooting animals(for sport) if they could shoot back !!

Have a great day !! on my way out to the sport of shopping with my princess

[ajakk]

I'm curious why it doesn't concern you. The man who has been charged with these crimes is in control of your community and will be for a while. If any person is found guilty of any felony, would not all of their activities be suspect?


I could not agree with you MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To me this is the same as what Manson did in California.

[Russ_Boston]

I could not agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To me this is the same as what Manson did in California.

Do you mean Charles Manson? Who controlled the killing of human beings?

While this is bad (if guilty), don't see how it rises to the level of killing a person. And, obviously, the law doesn't agree with that either since the punishment is probably just money.

Is this what you meant to say? Or do you mean some other Manson?

[redwitch]

Charges have been made but no trial has taken place (in a court room) outside of this forum.

If found guilty, there will probably be stiff fines. However, no one has been tried and been found guilty.

This really has no bearing on life in The Villages. Sure, you can say that the Morse family has no morals by shooting out of season on their own property. It does not concern me. Why does it concern you? Just keep any guns away from my pet Panda. He gets mean around hunters.

It is not like an elected official was caught in a sexual tryst. That is a betrayal of public trust - since they are elected by the people. We can all name a few of those - Gov. Spitzer, Mark Foley, David Vitter, and the governors of South Carolina and of New Jersey.

Let me see if I have this straight -- it's okay to commit a felony as long as it doesn't affect you, but it's not okay for someone to have an affair, which is actually a very private matter. Granted, Mark Morse, et al. have not been tried and convicted, but if they are found guilty (and not ljust let off on a technicality), they have committed FELONIES, knowingly with intent. That's okay with you?

So, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, FDR,, Ike, JFK, Clinton, just to name a few public officials who have had known,, confirmed affairs, should be removed from office for betraying a public trust? What public trust? I may not like their choices and I certainly don't understand having sex with another when married, but it is a betrayal of a private trust with their wives and it truly isn't my business or yours or the general public's unless these sexual trysts truly affect the running of the city, state, country.

I honestly think your statements are a mix of apples and oranges and it saddens me that you can't see that Mark Morse's moral fibre is sorely lacking -- in the recent class action suit, the IRS mess, the Moffitt lies and this and a lot of small things as well.

[katezbox]

let me see if i have this straight -- it's okay to commit a felony as long as it doesn't affect you, but it's not okay for someone to have an affair, which is actually a very private matter. Granted, mark morse, et al. Have not been tried and convicted, but if they are found guilty (and not ljust let off on a technicality), they have committed felonies, knowingly with intent. That's okay with you?

So, george washington, thomas jefferson, fdr,, ike, jfk, clinton, just to name a few public officials who have had known,, confirmed affairs, should be removed from office for betraying a public trust? What public trust? I may not like their choices and i certainly don't understand having sex with another when married, but it is a betrayal of a private trust with their wives and it truly isn't my business or yours or the general public's unless these sexual trysts truly affect the running of the city, state, country.

I honestly think your statements are a mix of apples and oranges and it saddens me that you can't see that mark morse's moral fibre is sorely lacking -- in the recent class action suit, the irs mess, the moffitt lies and this and a lot of small things as well.

amen!

[JimJoe]

Jim --those operations are essential I am talking about the SPORT of hunting for pure pleasure of the kill as it appears Morse and company are accused . I understand population control and the feeding of the hungry.

I just wonder sometimes how many people would be shooting animals(for sport) if they could shoot back !!

Have a great day !! on my way out to the sport of shopping with my princess

Do the animals who are slaughtered for furs, leather, guitar strings, pickled pigs feet, etc etc.. get to shoot back too? I do not agree with killing for killing sake. Many people will tell you that meat is not essential, and is in fact not healthy to humans. I see your point but mine is who and where do we draw the line?
I completely agree with laws that say if you hunt, you must dress the meat for consumption. If you do not want it, make sure it gets to someone who needs it. Many hunters in this area dress and donate the meat to the needy and shelters. I wonder if they have a food distribution license. So many issues... so much need for more government.
OF course you can argue that the food chain needs the body too.
JJ

[redwitch]

JJ -- Montana has places to drop off the carcasses to be dressed and given to local shelters all for a whoipping $20 fee. The problem, of course, is that if you're hunting out of season or without a license you don't dare drop off the carcass since you then face a hefty fine and possible conviction for that dead animal.

I'm not going to get into pros and cons of hunting. My father was a hunter. So was my brother. As a kid, I happily joined them. I quit hunting when I gutshot a deer and had to chase it down to finish the job. I quit eating meat for several years after that but ultimately developed a severe case of anemia and had a choice -- eat red meat or die. I chose the red meat (which I honestly love, anyway). Back to the point, my father and brother loved the challenge of the hunt but never hunted unless they knew they could use every part of the animal. In Kentucky, that meant giving the meat to those less fortunate to enjoy during the winter. The hides were tanned and turned into clothing for those same families. The fat was rendered to make candles and soap. Even the bones were carved into utensils. We never had a head on the wall except my father's when mom was mad at him or a skin on the floor. That would have been a waste and an obscenity in our household. However, trophy hunting is beyond obscene and downright inexcusable. I can think of no reason for it except ego and it is the ego of a person I personally don't ever want to know.

[duffysmom]

Red, I'm thinking that you need to write a book. Your life has taken so many interesting twists and turns. I find you and the way you express yourself fascinating. We're lucky to have you on this forum and as a neighbor. :super::clap2:

Back to the topic, I'm happy that we have the POA to keep an eye on the developer, he needs to be watched. The charges in Montana are against Mark Morse not Gary Morse.

[Russ_Boston]

Back to the topic, I'm happy that we have the POA to keep an eye on the developer, he needs to be watched. The charges in Montana are against Mark Morse not Gary Morse.

The POA found this story? Didn't know that.

[John_W]

Russ I agree with you 100% --I have always thought that hunting would only be a sport if you gave the ANIMAL a gun also !!!

You're right, it shouldn't be called a sport unless both sides know they're playing. A better name would be 'Killing', hunting leads one to believe the animal is hiding. On many days I can look out my back window and see deer grazing, they aren't too hard to find.

[same]

The last time the POA kept an eye on something, they hired an attorney for over 6 Million Dollars for 12 months work and paid themselves $50,000 each.

[Pturner]

I'm inclined toward some sympathy for the daughter. In large measure, we learn our values from our parents.

If we are fortunate, our parents teach us, emulate and expect of us high standards of ethics and personal integrity. If we eschew those values, shame on us. If they teach us that we are privileged and above the laws and ethical standards-- or that our "worth" is defined by our wealth-- shame on them.

Yes, she is responsible for her own actions and should be accountable for them. I do not suggest otherwise. I guess I just hope that she learns the right lessons from the charges, regardless of her involvement, if any.

I hope they all do.

[Advogado]

The last time the POA kept an eye on something, they hired an attorney for over 6 Million Dollars for 12 months work and paid themselves $50,000 each.

Yes, and you, the other residents of The Villages, and I ended up as the beneficiaries of a class-action settlement in the amount of $40,000,000 that the Developer had cheated us out of. I would say we got a heck of a good deal. Too bad it took a lawsuit to get the Developer to do the right thing.

Once you have written a refund check to the Developer for your share (about $1,000), I will start to listen to your criticism of the plaintiffs (who devoted a tremendous amount of time and effort to the pursuing the matter), their attorneys, and the POA.

[paulandjean]

Let the Courts handle this mess. Whatever they do,is alright with me.

[ajakk]

Do you mean Charles Manson? Who controlled the killing of human beings?

While this is bad (if guilty), don't see how it rises to the level of killing a person. And, obviously, the law doesn't agree with that either since the punishment is probably just money.

Is this what you meant to say? Or do you mean some other Manson?

Russ nice to hear from you again. I not only left out the word MORE, in the first line but should have added kill for the love of killing in the second line. I just didn't figure killing living things for fun had degrees. Just my opinion.

[duffysmom]

The POA found this story? Didn't know that.

Russ, perhaps a reading comprehension class would help; read my note, I never said the POA found this story.:sigh:

[same]

I would like a receipt for my share of the Lawyers fee, so I can get a tax deduction of about $300. If you live north of 466, the $6,000,000 fee comes out to about $300 for every homeowner.

[Advogado]

I would like a receipt for my share of the Lawyers fee, so I can get a tax deduction of about $300. If you live north of 466, the $6,000,000 fee comes out to about $300 for every homeowner.

Bad news: I'm afraid that your math is no better than your than your understanding of the class-action settlement. Take a look at page 3 of the settlement agreement: http://www.thevillagesfl.us/classactionsettlement.htm

Plaintiff's attorneys' fees were paid by the Developer, in addition to the $40 million settlement. They cost you nothing. Thus, they did not cost every homeowner north of 466 $300. They cost each such homeowner: $0.

You, I, and everybody else in The Villages was being "had" by the Developer. While you, I, and everybody else did nothing to remedy the situation, the plaintiffs pushed the matter and got us $40 million. Most people in our situation would thank them. I have.

When I said your share of settlement was $1,000, I was postulating that all approximately 40,000 homes in The Villages benefited equally from the settlement. Since you want to assume that only homes north of 466 benefited (technically they were the only members of the class, but in reality we all use the facilities north of 466) and if you live north of 466, then you should write the Developer a refund check for $2,000, instead of only $1,000. As I said in my earlier post, if you don't want the class-action money from the Developer, give your share back to the Developer. (The family is apparently running up some big legal bills in Montana and could use your help.) Otherwise, stop carping about the plaintiffs and the POA.

Further bad news for you: Even with a receipt for $300, you don't get a tax deduction for the class-action plaintiffs' attorney fees that were paid by the Developer and not by you.

[Tbugs]

Avocado,

It sounds as you are very unhappy here as well as being a naysayer. You are probably a very nice person but you are coming across as a real naysayer. You might have a happier disposition and outlook on life if you enjoyed the many activities of The Villages instead of posting such negative postings.

By the way, this thread started off with a mis-statement. It was talking of Gary Morse felony investigation in Montana. It is not Gary in trouble but his son and family.

Now, Avocado, just enjoy life and the wonderful place you have here in The Villages.

I have seen enough on this thread so I am not going to read anymore postings on it. Any response to me, Avocado, would be a waste of electrons on your part. Bye-bye.

[ajakk]

The last time the POA kept an eye on something, they hired an attorney for over 6 Million Dollars for 12 months work and paid themselves $50,000 each.

But, the new cart paths are great and no cost to Villagers!!

[K9-Lovers]

Avocado,

It sounds as you are very unhappy here as well as being a naysayer. You are probably a very nice person but you are coming across as a real naysayer.

Just for the record Avagado, I don't get that impression of you. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the POA's involvement in that lawsuit and was explaining how it benefitted all of us by using mathematical examples.

[Larry Wilson]

Tbugs,
What you talking about??? I think Avocado sounds like one smart person!!

[Russ_Boston]

Russ, perhaps a reading comprehension class would help; read my note, I never said the POA found this story.:sigh:

Then why did you mention the POA in your response about this topic? Were they the first ones to publish it or something? Why else would you say "Back to the topic, I'm glad we have the POA to..." These are your words.

[katezbox]

Russ, perhaps a reading comprehension class would help; read my note, I never said the POA found this story.:sigh:

Duffysmom, this was your excerpted from your post...

"Back to the topic, I'm happy that we have the POA to keep an eye on the developer, he needs to be watched."

Since the title of the topic is Morse (albeit the wrong one named) and felony allegations, I think Russ might be forgiven in misunderstanding what you wrote.

[Russ_Boston]

Sorry Kate - must have posted the same time.

I'm not asking for forgiveness though. I really thought she meant the POA had some hand in the story. Why mention them otherwise. It was a question on my part as to what role the POA played in this. Just curious.

[katezbox]

Avocado,

It sounds as you are very unhappy here as well as being a naysayer. You are probably a very nice person but you are coming across as a real naysayer. You might have a happier disposition and outlook on life if you enjoyed the many activities of The Villages instead of posting such negative postings.

By the way, this thread started off with a mis-statement. It was talking of Gary Morse felony investigation in Montana. It is not Gary in trouble but his son and family.

Now, Avocado, just enjoy life and the wonderful place you have here in The Villages.

I have seen enough on this thread so I am not going to read anymore postings on it. Any response to me, Avocado, would be a waste of electrons on your part. Bye-bye.

Tbugs - just because someone is unhappy with the Morse family does not mean he is unhappy as a Villager. And to mistype his name is just plain rude. His "name" is "Advogato".. He and I don't always agree - but have a civil discourse.

I have frequently stated that the Morse's built a better mousetrap and that innovation in a free market deserves the rewards it generates. I just have an issue with greed... not my house, not the beauty of TV and not with most of the maintenance...

[katezbox]

Sorry Kate - must have posted the same time.

I'm not asking for forgiveness though. I really thought she meant the POA had some hand in the story. Why mention them otherwise. It was a question on my part as to what role the POA played in this. Just curious.

:a040:

[redwitch]

Russ, I think Duffysmom meant that she's grateful that POA watches over some of the things being done by the developer. The first I heard of the poaching was by the Orlando Sentinel. I haven't seen a thing about the poaching in the POA paper. I doubt I will -- it is not the type of thing that concerns the POA. It may concern some of us because of the moral, ethical issues, but it really doesn't affect TV residents and the POA is very much into what affects the residents.

[mrdarcy]

I bet Advogado knows what he's talking about. Advogado means "lawyer" in Portuguese. If his username equates to his profession, he's well educated. Indeed, he strikes me as learned as evidenced by the frequent cogency of his arguments, regardless whether one agrees with him or not. Critical thinking raises the quality of the debate. I appreciate Advogado's comments from that standpoint alone and thank him for offering his thoughts to the controversy.

[Russ_Boston]

I bet Advogado knows what he's talking about. Advogado means "lawyer" in Portuguese. If his username equates to his profession, he's well educated. Indeed, he strikes me as learned as evidenced by the frequent cogency of his arguments, regardless whether one agrees with him or not. Critical thinking raises the quality of the debate. I appreciate Advogado's comments from that standpoint alone and thank him for offering his thoughts to the controversy.

I think the implication was that use of the word Avocado was an intentional slap not a misprint. That was the rude part.

I'm quite sure Advogado got it.

[Taj44]

Tbugs - just because someone is unhappy with the Morse family does not mean he is unhappy as a Villager. And to mistype his name is just plain rude. His "name" is "Advogato".. He and I don't always agree - but have a civil discourse.

I have frequently stated that the Morse's built a better mousetrap and that innovation in a free market deserves the rewards it generates. I just have an issue with greed... not my house, not the beauty of TV and not with most of the maintenance...

Well said katezbox. It comes across as petty name calling just because someone doesn't agree with one's opinions.

[graciegirl]

Unfortunately, we readers are never sure who is who and what their agenda is when we read the posts .

More than once I have been said to be in the Morses pay by people who don't know me.

When we post with a lot of venom and not so many facts we devalue our own property. We really need to research our facts just to protect ourselves and our investment. The world is watching this forum. I think that honesty is key, but speculation, hearsay and gossip, not so much.

[Challenger]

Unfortunately, we readers are never sure who is who and what their agenda is when we read the posts .

More than once I have been said to be in the Morses pay by people who don't know me.

When we post with a lot of venom and not so many facts we devalue our own property. We really need to research our facts just to protect ourselves and our investment. The world is watching this forum. I think that honesty is key, but speculation, hearsay and gossip, not so much.

Right on.

[Talk Host]

Mark Twain said, "Facts are Pesky things?"

[Larry Wilson]

Yep, I knew that about fire ants!:beer3:
If you think the world reads TOTV, you need to get out more. !!! I mean like take a train or a plane. :laugh:

I'm leaving now.:pepper2:

[Talk Host]

If you think the world reads TOTV, you need to get out more. !!! I mean like take a train or a plane. :laugh:
:

Google Analytics for this weeks traffic on Talk of The Villages

1. United States 101,349
2. Canada 1,033
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4. Luxembourg 188
5. Italy 140
6. Russia 88
7. Germany 86
8. Australia 76
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10. Switzerland 63
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12. France 50
13. Philippines 44
14. Austria 31
15. Malaysia 31

[Larry Wilson]

:coolsmiley::icon_wink:
I must be running with the wrong crowd when I travel! Now Larry get off TOTV. Bye.;)

[graciegirl]

Unfortunately, we readers are never sure who is who and what their agenda is when we read the posts .

More than once I have been said to be in the Morses pay by people who don't know me.

When we post with a lot of venom and not so many facts we devalue our own property. We really need to research our facts just to protect ourselves and our investment. The world is watching this forum. I think that honesty is key, but speculation, hearsay and gossip, not so much.

I am bumping my own post because someone challenged that the world does indeed read TOTV and so do potential buyers that may want to buy your house if you dislike it here so much you want to leave.:spoken:

[cabo35]

Unfortunately, we readers are never sure who is who and what their agenda is when we read the posts .

More than once I have been said to be in the Morses pay by people who don't know me.

When we post with a lot of venom and not so many facts we devalue our own property. We really need to research our facts just to protect ourselves and our investment. The world is watching this forum. I think that honesty is key, but speculation, hearsay and gossip, not so much.

It is a pleasure to bump your thoughtful post again. I decided not to read the thread after I read the title...ok...I peaked and saw your post. IMHO...the use of the word "felony" was calculated to incite and slant the tone. It suggested much more than the update it purported to be. It was unnecessary (read the title without the word) and specious. Further, it voided any suggestion of objectivity by the OP. In that regard it is not honest. One can speculate it was not intended to inform.....it was intended to perpetuate an agenda. Words have meaning but do not always mean.....people mean.

Gossip is an interesting word. Lisa Kirk, the actress, defined it quite accurately. "A gossip is someone who talks to you about others, a bore is someone who talks to you about himself, and a brilliant conversationalist is one who talks to you about yourself".

So.....how have you been?

Have a good day.

[skyguy79]

Google Analytics for this weeks traffic on Talk of The Villages

1. United States 101,349
2. Canada 1,033
3. United Kingdom 380
4. Luxembourg 188
5. Italy 140
6. Russia 88
7. Germany 86
8. Australia 76
9. India 67
10. Switzerland 63
11. Costa Rica 52
12. France 50
13. Philippines 44
14. Austria 31
15. Malaysia 31Very interesting, but one could only imagine just how many of those hits are bots* going around harvesting information for spamming or whatever else and not humans browsing!

* bot (bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/obreve.gift) n. Short for robot. A software program that imitates the behavior of a human, as by querying search engines or participating in chatroom or IRC discussions.

[Talk Host]

Very interesting, but one could only imagine just how many of those hits are bots* going around harvesting information for spamming or whatever else and not humans browsing!

* bot (bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/obreve.gift) n. Short for robot. A software program that imitates the behavior of a human, as by querying search engines or participating in chatroom or IRC discussions.

I'm sure you are probably right, but we would also like to think that those are real people. There is always a way to throw cold water on ones enthusiasm.

[Taj44]

Mark Twain said, "Facts are Pesky things?"
:coolsmiley:

[logdog]

More than once I have been said to be in the Morses pay by people who don't know me.


So Gracie... is your freezer full of venison? Want to share?

Okay, okay... sorry. That wasn't very nice

So what was this post all about again???

[graciegirl]

So Gracie... is your freezer full of venison? Want to share?

Okay, okay... sorry. That wasn't very nice

So what was this post all about again???

Oh nothing....

We don't eat venison, or squirrel or dog...Do you have me mixed up with Fumar????

Thank heavens I consider you my friend logdog....or the girls and I would be calling on you.........:pepper2:

[redwitch]

But, but, Gracie ... I LOVE deer liver. Won't you please share? Pretty please?

[Goes and stands the corner.]

[graciegirl]

But, but, Gracie ... I LOVE deer liver. Won't you please share? Pretty please?

[Goes and stands the corner.]

Red. You ain't right.

YOU are one of the girls.

[redwitch]

I know -- that's why I'm standing in the corner (but I still want some deer livier).

[Barefoot]

I bet Advogado knows what he's talking about. Advogado means "lawyer" in Portuguese. If his username equates to his profession, he's well educated. Indeed, he strikes me as learned as evidenced by the frequent cogency of his arguments, regardless whether one agrees with him or not. Critical thinking raises the quality of the debate. I appreciate Advogado's comments from that standpoint alone and thank him for offering his thoughts to the controversy.

:agree: We need posters like Advogado. I hope he continues to participate.

[K9-Lovers]

:agree: We need posters like Advogado. I hope he continues to participate.

:agree: Forward On Advogado!

[Taj44]

Three cheers for Advogado!

[katezbox]

Three cheers for Advogado!

We don't always agree - but his arguments are thought out and well-reasoned...

[duffysmom]

We don't always agree - but his arguments are thought out and well-reasoned...

:agree::agree:

[Advogado]

I think the implication was that use of the word Avocado was an intentional slap not a misprint. That was the rude part.

I'm quite sure Advogado got it.

I got it, but I thought it was kind of silly.

[Advogado]

I think the implication was that use of the word Avocado was an intentional slap not a misprint. That was the rude part.

I'm quite sure Advogado got it.

I got it, but I thought it was kind of silly.

[Advogado]

I bet Advogado knows what he's talking about. Advogado means "lawyer" in Portuguese. If his username equates to his profession, he's well educated. Indeed, he strikes me as learned as evidenced by the frequent cogency of his arguments, regardless whether one agrees with him or not. Critical thinking raises the quality of the debate. I appreciate Advogado's comments from that standpoint alone and thank him for offering his thoughts to the controversy.

First, thanks to you and others who have come to my defense. I doubt that I am more "learned" than any other contributors, but I have spent a fair amount of time studying and thinking about how The Villages and Developer operate.

I have noticed that some posters, when confronted with facts or opinions that reflect unfavorably on the Developer, tend to ignore the substance of the facts or opinion and launch an []ad hominium[/I] attack on the presenter of the facts or opinion. If this forum is to have any value, I think that we should all try to avoid that tactic. If my facts are wrong or if you think my opinion is nonsense, I would ask that you say so vigorously and give the reasons that you think so. It is not productive, and frankly a little silly, to simply call me a "naysayer" or tell me to sell my house and move if I don't like it here.

By the way, I do like the lifestyle here, but the great lifestyle is irrelevant to most of the controversies involving the Developer. We should remember that the Italians justified Mussolini because he made the trains run on time. I guess we know how that turned out for Italy.

When we buy a house here, we are making an investment. It is my view that it behooves us to watch over that investment and to do what we can to protect that investment from actions by the Developer that could imperil it. Some the Developer's actions clearly have done so-- witness the facts underlying the class-action lawsuit and the multiple charges made in the IRS investigation.

Now, to return to the subject of this thread, i.e., the Morse-poaching charges. An earlier post said that the poaching charges really don't affect TV residents. That was my first reaction too. However, upon further reflection, I thought about the list of criteria I use when deciding whether or not to invest in a stock, and I think I've changed my mind about the charges not affecting TV residents. Right up at top of my list of investment criteria list is management integrity.

The reason for this is not just ethical standards on my part but is also the realization that unethical management generally causes bad things to happen to the operations of a company. In the past few years, we have seen numerous examples of this. If I were thinking of investing in a company and one of its top executives and his close associates were facing multiple felony charges, and, even worse, if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company.

[chuckinca]

(sp)


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hominem


.

[Advogado]

(sp)


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hominem


.

Thanks for the correction.

Like, I said in my post, if my facts (including spelling) are wrong, just tell me. Hopefully, I will not be asked to sell my house and move to Sun City.

[Jhooman]

First, thanks to you and others who have come to my defense. I doubt that I am more "learned" than any other contributors, but I have spent a fair amount of time studying and thinking about how The Villages and Developer operate.

I have noticed that some posters, when confronted with facts or opinions that reflect unfavorably on the Developer, tend to ignore the substance of the facts or opinion and launch an []ad hominium[/I] attack on the presenter of the facts or opinion. If this forum is to have any value, I think that we should all try to avoid that tactic. If my facts are wrong or if you think my opinion is nonsense, I would ask that you say so vigorously and give the reasons that you think so. It is not productive, and frankly a little silly, to simply call me a "naysayer" or tell me to sell my house and move if I don't like it here.

By the way, I do like the lifestyle here, but the great lifestyle is irrelevant to most of the controversies involving the Developer. We should remember that the Italians justified Mussolini because he made the trains run on time. I guess we know how that turned out for Italy.

When we buy a house here, we are making an investment. It is my view that it behooves us to watch over that investment and to do what we can to protect that investment from actions by the Developer that could imperil it. Some the Developer's actions clearly have done so-- witness the facts underlying the class-action lawsuit and the multiple charges made in the IRS investigation.

Now, to return to the subject of this thread, i.e., the Morse-poaching charges. An earlier post said that the poaching charges really don't affect TV residents. That was my first reaction too. However, upon further reflection, I thought about the list of criteria I use when deciding whether or not to invest in a stock, and I think I've changed my mind about the charges not affecting TV residents. Right up at top of my list of investment criteria list is management integrity.

The reason for this is not just ethical standards on my part but is also the realization that unethical management generally causes bad things to happen to the operations of a company. In the past few years, we have seen numerous examples of this. If I were thinking of investing in a company and one of its top executives and his close associates were facing multiple felony charges, and, even worse, if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company.
Thank you for your post. I agree 100%.

We have purchased a lot in Buttonwood and will begin building as soon as our home sales here in California.

I believe it's my responsibility to know what is happening in my life and the lives of those I invest in.

So many people claim, I didn't know and thus become victims of having their heads in the sand.

Once again your post is excellent

[Larry Wilson]

First, thanks to you and others who have come to my defense. I doubt that I am more "learned" than any other contributors, but I have spent a fair amount of time studying and thinking about how The Villages and Developer operate.

I have noticed that some posters, when confronted with facts or opinions that reflect unfavorably on the Developer, tend to ignore the substance of the facts or opinion and launch an []ad hominium[/I] attack on the presenter of the facts or opinion. If this forum is to have any value, I think that we should all try to avoid that tactic. If my facts are wrong or if you think my opinion is nonsense, I would ask that you say so vigorously and give the reasons that you think so. It is not productive, and frankly a little silly, to simply call me a "naysayer" or tell me to sell my house and move if I don't like it here.

By the way, I do like the lifestyle here, but the great lifestyle is irrelevant to most of the controversies involving the Developer. We should remember that the Italians justified Mussolini because he made the trains run on time. I guess we know how that turned out for Italy.

When we buy a house here, we are making an investment. It is my view that it behooves us to watch over that investment and to do what we can to protect that investment from actions by the Developer that could imperil it. Some the Developer's actions clearly have done so-- witness the facts underlying the class-action lawsuit and the multiple charges made in the IRS investigation.

Now, to return to the subject of this thread, i.e., the Morse-poaching charges. An earlier post said that the poaching charges really don't affect TV residents. That was my first reaction too. However, upon further reflection, I thought about the list of criteria I use when deciding whether or not to invest in a stock, and I think I've changed my mind about the charges not affecting TV residents. Right up at top of my list of investment criteria list is management integrity.

The reason for this is not just ethical standards on my part but is also the realization that unethical management generally causes bad things to happen to the operations of a company. In the past few years, we have seen numerous examples of this. If I were thinking of investing in a company and one of its top executives and his close associates were facing multiple felony charges, and, even worse, if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company.
I also agree completely. Thanks for putting it into words. On this thread you can see someone telling me to move. Well, I just don't take posters like that seriously.

[Tbugs]

Even though I said I was through with this thread, I am not. Please bear with me a little more.

The Morse family-in this thread- have been compared to Charlie Manson, Adloph Hitler, and Mousilini. Kind of harsh, if you ask me.

There were comments made about needing integrity at the top of a corporation. Do we have integrity in all of our elected officials? We would like it but it doesn't happen. We need corporate leadership who will look out for the best interests of The Villages. I do not agree with the Morse ultra-conservative politics by any means and I get a big laugh out of the Daily Sun columns and letters to the editor.

I am not a hunter nor a supporter of the NRA at all. I used to hunt but after getting out of the Army in 1969, I got rid of my rifle and have not picked one up since.

There were comments about my saying that nothing is holding you in The Villages and if the integrity of the corporation management is beyond your liking, you can move. I am not telling anyone to move. It is the same thing with donations to the Moffit Center. Donate to it if you want or don't. I want to live in harmony. We all worked hard for our slice of Heaven. Let's enjoy it to the fullest.:beer3:

Hopefully, this has cleared the air and we can all get along.

[katezbox]

I also agree completely. Thanks for putting it into words. On this thread you can see someone telling me to move. Well, I just don't take posters like that seriously.

I agree as well. One of the reasons I absented myself from this forum for over a year is that the discourse had turned into petty name calling. It is something I truly despise (and a reason I rarely listen to the talking heads on radio or TV on either side). One tiny fact is buried in a pound of drivel and the yelling commences. I feel that this has become accepted in our society. I also believe that manners and respect - even for those you disagree with - are a reflection of who we are.

Sorry for the hijack - off my soap box for now...

[paulandjean]

I think we should all mind our own business. Enough said.

[graciegirl]

I agree as well. One of the reasons I absented myself from this forum for over a year is that the discourse had turned into petty name calling. It is something I truly despise (and a reason I rarely listen to the talking heads on radio or TV on either side). One tiny fact is buried in a pound of drivel and the yelling commences. I feel that this has become accepted in our society. I also believe that manners and respect - even for those you disagree with - are a reflection of who we are.

Sorry for the hijack - off my soap box for now...

Well said dear Kate. I agree with a lot of people on here, in full, in part, sometimes, always....a little.

I have a VERY hard time getting into an open minded and agreeable feeling when some posters post who never, NEVER have ANYTHING positive to say about ANYTHING. Right away I feel like my girdle is too tight, and I don't even wear a girdle, anymore. I should maybe.

[Russ_Boston]

I think we should all mind our own business. Enough said.

I hear what you are saying but doesn't that go against the whole idea of public forums like TOTV? The idea here is to express your opinion on the questions that have raised. You don't have to agree with any or all of them. But each person's opinion should be respected and given consideration.

I would think public forums are not your thing if you don't want to express your opinion.

[samhass]

Tbugs,
What you talking about??? I think Avocado sounds like one smart person!!

:agree:

[bigalibaba]

For those who are interested in the Morse poaching case (he has 2 felony poaching charges pending in Montana) here is a link to the latest:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_328311e7-6851-512b-9498-a57caadfa9b6.html

The Florida game warden who oversaw operations at Morse's and Rainey's ranch, has forfeited bond to resolve charges in the case. He is expected to be a key witness against Morse and his family and friends.

I've been reading this stuff for quite a while now and only have one question for the last 50 or so posters; does anyone remember that the subject of this Thread is "Update on Morse Felony Charges in Montana Poaching Case"? Can't remember the last post that had to do with killing Trophy Elk without a license, or the status of the criminal charges against the leader of the pack.

[mermaid72]

How disgraceful of the CEO of the Villages, (have I got that correct?) to be involved in murdering animals for the fun of it. That shows what low morals and a total disrespect for life he has.

Have any of the residents protested this to the powers that be?

[graciegirl]

How disgraceful of the CEO of the Villages, (have I got that correct?) to be involved in murdering animals for the fun of it. That shows what low morals and a total disrespect for life he has.

Have any of the residents protested this to the powers that be?

I ...um..think Mark Morse is...pretty much that around here. This is not run as a democracy. Most of us knew that going in.

I am not sure how I feel about hunting, we have no hunters in the family so I really don't know the rules on that. Apparently he screwed up big time. Hunters would probably not use the term "murdering" animals.

[cabo35]

Advogado Fact check: You gently admonish us by stating, "We should remember that the Italians justified Mussolini because he made the trains run on time. I guess we know how that turned out for Italy." My recollection of history, suggests more than a little divergence from your own. Italy after WWI was suffering from a poor economy, unrest, strikes and riots. It set the stage for Mussolini and his Fascist party's rise to power. To suggest his rise was attributable to getting the trains to run on time is a stretch. To suggest a parallel with The Villages and the Morse family is much more than a stretch. Are we now to add Mussolini to the Hitler, et al, characterizations of the developer. What happened to your advise to avoid argumentum ad hominem? Are you not fallaciously by innuendo comparing Morse with Mussolini?

You clearly cite the IRS case as an example of the developer imperiling our investment in The Villages. I would state it differently with less bias. In an earlier post I listed "what ifs" for optimists. Accordingly, in part they are:
.
what if someone realizes that The Villages is de facto, a municipality with legal sub-divisions called by a different name as a result of court and legislatively authorized government experimentation in-progress and accordingly, qualifies for the bond status in issue

what if someone applies common sense and realizes that TV and other Florida communities as well as similar new out of state developments are sanctioned experiments that need to go through a metamorphosis to reach their potential in serving the needs of people looking for something progressive and different in the way we are governed.

what if somebody realizes we are not a cult compound but a legally authorized form of government

The form of governance in Disney World and the Villages is unique. To a large extent, it is a bold experiment that has been adopted by copious jurisdictions in Florida and other states. From what I have read, issues have arisen that have no clearly defined precedent in state law or IRS regulations. They reside in the grey twilight of unsettled precedent. If the laws that generally regulate traditional government are without precedent in our form of governance, I would suggest in the matter you cite, the IRS is navigating uncharted waters. Ergo, the implications of The Villages IRS decision will set precedent for many others. In any case, what has Morse been charged with or convicted of that threatens your investment? How does perpetuating the worst case help our investments? Are you rooting against Morse? If so, aren't you rooting for a decision that will negatively impact your own interest and the interest of your friends and neighbors? I could be wrong, and I apologize accordingly, but it sounds like you are rooting for the IRS.

The Poaching Case. Regarding the topic at hand. The first point I would comment on is your rather persistent use of the term felony. You have clearly demonstrated that you are intelligent and have a command of the King's English. You also are clever enough to know that crimes are classified differently from state to state. You also know that true crimes are generally classified as crimes against the person and crimes against property. There is another classification that are labeled "offense" because they are not against property or people. Poaching is a statutory offense. It not against the person or property. It may be against moral principles and personal ethics. They are statutory offenses because they are regulatory in nature and defined by statute. Examples might be: a speeding ticket, failure to secure a building permit, littering, fishing without a license, hunting without a license, etc., etc. Crimes can also be classified as misdemeanors, high misdemeanor, felonies, disorderly person offenses. Each state is unique. In some states, misdemeanor is a felony and indictable and in some states its not. In Montana, poaching may or may not be a felony. Hunting elk without a license may be a crime, even a felony in Montana. To my knowledge withstanding possible correction, it is not in New Jersey. Further complicating the issue is the fact that law enforcement routinely overcharges with the highest classification and works for a plea to a lesser offense in the interest of saving time, money and resources. A disturbing question I have is the publicized fact that the investigation started 5 years ago. I imagine a good defense attorney can work with that fact. In conclusion, while being a devil's advocate of sorts, don't take that literally, I am disturbed by the conduct, if true, whatever it is classified. I do not understand why some resurrect and post 5 day old articles and call them updates if not to cast disparity on the character of the unconvicted and his family. But, that's just me.

You rather strongly make the case with your management integrity criteria analogy, that you would not invest with someone like Morse. You said, "If I were thinking of investing in a company and one of its top executives and his close associates were facing multiple felony charges, and, even worse, if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company."

How do your thoughtful, articulate representations impact those who read this forum and are on the fence about investing here? How does it impact someone who is thinking about investing in a small business here? How many homeowners and investors have you discouraged from investing? Could your observations be viewed as working against self interest, my interest and Villagers interest? By the way, the Villages Sun did carry the Montana story. Some research in the TOTV archives will produce its reference. It provided essential facts and shaded the article in the developer's interest. Your assertion that, "if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company." seems to be vicariously disingenuous. If Mr. Morse engaged someone to keep the news from the people as you suggest, he should dismiss them for incompetence.

You seemed to have tried and convicted Morse and his family on several broad based assumptions before the courts and the IRS have done their work. I respect your right to do so.

I have no connection whatsoever to the Morse family. I have been a critic of Mr. Morse on multiple occasions.

Thanks for the challenge.

[Advogado]

How disgraceful of the CEO of the Villages, (have I got that correct?) to be involved in murdering animals for the fun of it. That shows what low morals and a total disrespect for life he has.

Have any of the residents protested this to the powers that be?

To answer your question about Mark Gary Morse's exact title in The Villages: The news reports have been inconsistent on that point. However, I guess his exact title depends on which entity you mean when you use the term, "The Villages". See http://www.corporationwiki.com/graphs/roamer.aspx?id=14993004 Technically, "The Villages" is a fictitious name that is registered to four different related companies, but there are variations of the name registered to other companies. See http://sunbiz.org/scripts/ficregl.exe?action=REGRET&docnum=G06206900129

Let us know when you get it all figured out.

[barb1191]

To answer your question about Mark Gary Morse's exact title in The Villages: The news reports have been inconsistent on that point. However, I guess his exact title depends on which entity you mean when you use the term, "The Villages". See http://www.corporationwiki.com/graphs/roamer.aspx?id=14993004 Technically, "The Villages" is a fictitious name that is registered to four different related companies, but there are variations of the name registered to other companies. See http://sunbiz.org/scripts/ficregl.exe?action=REGRET&docnum=G06206900129

Let us know when you get it all figured out.

"Mark Gary Morse" is not one individual. There is Gary Morse and son Mark Morse. FYI

[graciegirl]

"Mark Gary Morse" is not one individual. There is Gary Morse and son Mark Morse. FYI

And...one is the king and one is the prince.

We didn't vote them in, unless buying a house here counts as a vote.

Your turn.

[barb1191]

And...one is the king and one is the prince.

We didn't vote them in, unless buying a house here counts as a vote.

Your turn.

Hmmm....".....king........the prince." Hmmmm Well you can label them any way you choose. Those two names would not be my choice. How about "yardstick" and "ruler"? Or maybe...."jump" and "how high."
"Penn" and "Teller" ????? "Edgar Bergin" & "Charlie McCarthy"?

Back atcha...

[graciegirl]

Hmmm....".....king........the prince." Hmmmm Well you can label them any way you choose. Those two names would not be my choice. How about "yardstick" and "ruler"? Or maybe...."jump" and "how high."
"Penn" and "Teller" ????? "Edgar Bergin" & "Charlie McCarthy"?

Back atcha...

There is nothing we can do to have a say in the government of TV. Nothing.

Doesn't that make the developers the rulers?

That is the form of goverment we bought into when we moved here. We may not like them but the day to day life is perfect..

We could have chosen Dell Webb if we wanted to vote on things.

[barb1191]

There is nothing we can do to have a say in the government of TV. Nothing.

Doesn't that make the developers the rulers?

That is the form of goverment we bought into when we moved here. We may not like them but the day to day life is perfect..

We could have chosen Dell Webb if we wanted to vote on things.

King and Prince are royalty and I can't seem to place the "powers-that-be" of TV in such high esteem, Gracie. I do believe that royalty does not necessarily make a ruler; take England, for example.

I love living in TV and "bubba & son" have done a fine job so that we could make them very very rich, which is fine with me. HOWEVER, they have been more than remiss in the important lack of ethics and best interests for the homeowners that made them so rich, so much that my respect is dwindling at each downturn that shows the true colors of these two moguls. They have not "given" residents anything; we paid for what we get and need not put them on a pedestal for give-aways, favors, or donations to the residents; nonexistent. They have so many holdings, that we are constantly paying them dearly for their many business ventures.

When lies, cheating, and greed sets in to this empire, that's when one must diligently consider the reality of it all and stand united as residents to protect our investments. Fortunately, we have the POA to support the residents.

[Tbugs]

Cabo,

You definitely took your time in writing your last post. Congratulations on the best thread posting.

Personally, I believe this whole thing is ridiculous. The hunting was on the Morse private land in Montana. They have some system of lottery to obtain a deer or elk license that is needed to hunt on your own land if you are a nonresident. However, the outfitter can have a package license for all in the hunting party and that is what is in question in this case. Chances are that Montana sees multimillionare nonresidents as a cash cow for the state.

Once again, Cabo, great work for that posting.

[English Ivy]

"bubba & son"

"Bubba & Son" ... that is priceless!:clap2:

Actually, I think their names are Mark G(ary) Morse and H(arold) Gary Morse.

[Pturner]

Actually, I think their names are Mark G(ary) Morse and H(arold) Gary Morse.

Yes, I believe Mark Morse's full name is Mark Gary Morse. So Mark Gary Morse is one person.

But who's counting?

[Pturner]

Advogado Fact check: You gently admonish us by stating, "We should remember that the Italians justified Mussolini because he made the trains run on time. I guess we know how that turned out for Italy." My recollection of history, suggests more than a little divergence from your own. Italy after WWI was suffering from a poor economy, unrest, strikes and riots. It set the stage for Mussolini and his Fascist party's rise to power. To suggest his rise was attributable to getting the trains to run on time is a stretch. To suggest a parallel with The Villages and the Morse family is much more than a stretch. Are we now to add Mussolini to the Hitler, et al, characterizations of the developer. What happened to your advise to avoid argumentum ad hominem? Are you not fallaciously by innuendo comparing Morse with Mussolini?

You clearly cite the IRS case as an example of the developer imperiling our investment in The Villages. I would state it differently with less bias. In an earlier post I listed "what ifs" for optimists. Accordingly, in part they are:
.
what if someone realizes that The Villages is de facto, a municipality with legal sub-divisions called by a different name as a result of court and legislatively authorized government experimentation in-progress and accordingly, qualifies for the bond status in issue

what if someone applies common sense and realizes that TV and other Florida communities as well as similar new out of state developments are sanctioned experiments that need to go through a metamorphosis to reach their potential in serving the needs of people looking for something progressive and different in the way we are governed.

what if somebody realizes we are not a cult compound but a legally authorized form of government

The form of governance in Disney World and the Villages is unique. To a large extent, it is a bold experiment that has been adopted by copious jurisdictions in Florida and other states. From what I have read, issues have arisen that have no clearly defined precedent in state law or IRS regulations. They reside in the grey twilight of unsettled precedent. If the laws that generally regulate traditional government are without precedent in our form of governance, I would suggest in the matter you cite, the IRS is navigating uncharted waters. Ergo, the implications of The Villages IRS decision will set precedent for many others. In any case, what has Morse been charged with or convicted of that threatens your investment? How does perpetuating the worst case help our investments? Are you rooting against Morse? If so, aren't you rooting for a decision that will negatively impact your own interest and the interest of your friends and neighbors? I could be wrong, and I apologize accordingly, but it sounds like you are rooting for the IRS.

The Poaching Case. Regarding the topic at hand. The first point I would comment on is your rather persistent use of the term felony. You have clearly demonstrated that you are intelligent and have a command of the King's English. You also are clever enough to know that crimes are classified differently from state to state. You also know that true crimes are generally classified as crimes against the person and crimes against property. There is another classification that are labeled "offense" because they are not against property or people. Poaching is a statutory offense. It not against the person or property. It may be against moral principles and personal ethics. They are statutory offenses because they are regulatory in nature and defined by statute. Examples might be: a speeding ticket, failure to secure a building permit, littering, fishing without a license, hunting without a license, etc., etc. Crimes can also be classified as misdemeanors, high misdemeanor, felonies, disorderly person offenses. Each state is unique. In some states, misdemeanor is a felony and indictable and in some states its not. In Montana, poaching may or may not be a felony. Hunting elk without a license may be a crime, even a felony in Montana. To my knowledge withstanding possible correction, it is not in New Jersey. Further complicating the issue is the fact that law enforcement routinely overcharges with the highest classification and works for a plea to a lesser offense in the interest of saving time, money and resources. A disturbing question I have is the publicized fact that the investigation started 5 years ago. I imagine a good defense attorney can work with that fact. In conclusion, while being a devil's advocate of sorts, don't take that literally, I am disturbed by the conduct, if true, whatever it is classified. I do not understand why some resurrect and post 5 day old articles and call them updates if not to cast disparity on the character of the unconvicted and his family. But, that's just me.

You rather strongly make the case with your management integrity criteria analogy, that you would not invest with someone like Morse. You said, "If I were thinking of investing in a company and one of its top executives and his close associates were facing multiple felony charges, and, even worse, if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company."

How do your thoughtful, articulate representations impact those who read this forum and are on the fence about investing here? How does it impact someone who is thinking about investing in a small business here? How many homeowners and investors have you discouraged from investing? Could your observations be viewed as working against self interest, my interest and Villagers interest? By the way, the Villages Sun did carry the Montana story. Some research in the TOTV archives will produce its reference. It provided essential facts and shaded the article in the developer's interest. Your assertion that, "if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company." seems to be vicariously disingenuous. If Mr. Morse engaged someone to keep the news from the people as you suggest, he should dismiss them for incompetence.

You seemed to have tried and convicted Morse and his family on several broad based assumptions before the courts and the IRS have done their work. I respect your right to do so.

I have no connection whatsoever to the Morse family. I have been a critic of Mr. Morse on multiple occasions.

Thanks for the challenge.

Excellent points about the form of government.

Also, the Morses may be flawed, but it's certainly easier for me to justify the Morses than Mussolini! Good grief.

[Advogado]

Advogado Fact check: You gently admonish us by stating, "We should remember that the Italians justified Mussolini because he made the trains run on time. I guess we know how that turned out for Italy." My recollection of history, suggests more than a little divergence from your own. Italy after WWI was suffering from a poor economy, unrest, strikes and riots. It set the stage for Mussolini and his Fascist party's rise to power. To suggest his rise was attributable to getting the trains to run on time is a stretch. To suggest a parallel with The Villages and the Morse family is much more than a stretch. Are we now to add Mussolini to the Hitler, et al, characterizations of the developer. What happened to your advise to avoid argumentum ad hominem? Are you not fallaciously by innuendo comparing Morse with Mussolini?

You clearly cite the IRS case as an example of the developer imperiling our investment in The Villages. I would state it differently with less bias. In an earlier post I listed "what ifs" for optimists. Accordingly, in part they are:
.
what if someone realizes that The Villages is de facto, a municipality with legal sub-divisions called by a different name as a result of court and legislatively authorized government experimentation in-progress and accordingly, qualifies for the bond status in issue

what if someone applies common sense and realizes that TV and other Florida communities as well as similar new out of state developments are sanctioned experiments that need to go through a metamorphosis to reach their potential in serving the needs of people looking for something progressive and different in the way we are governed.

what if somebody realizes we are not a cult compound but a legally authorized form of government

The form of governance in Disney World and the Villages is unique. To a large extent, it is a bold experiment that has been adopted by copious jurisdictions in Florida and other states. From what I have read, issues have arisen that have no clearly defined precedent in state law or IRS regulations. They reside in the grey twilight of unsettled precedent. If the laws that generally regulate traditional government are without precedent in our form of governance, I would suggest in the matter you cite, the IRS is navigating uncharted waters. Ergo, the implications of The Villages IRS decision will set precedent for many others. In any case, what has Morse been charged with or convicted of that threatens your investment? How does perpetuating the worst case help our investments? Are you rooting against Morse? If so, aren't you rooting for a decision that will negatively impact your own interest and the interest of your friends and neighbors? I could be wrong, and I apologize accordingly, but it sounds like you are rooting for the IRS.

The Poaching Case. Regarding the topic at hand. The first point I would comment on is your rather persistent use of the term felony. You have clearly demonstrated that you are intelligent and have a command of the King's English. You also are clever enough to know that crimes are classified differently from state to state. You also know that true crimes are generally classified as crimes against the person and crimes against property. There is another classification that are labeled "offense" because they are not against property or people. Poaching is a statutory offense. It not against the person or property. It may be against moral principles and personal ethics. They are statutory offenses because they are regulatory in nature and defined by statute. Examples might be: a speeding ticket, failure to secure a building permit, littering, fishing without a license, hunting without a license, etc., etc. Crimes can also be classified as misdemeanors, high misdemeanor, felonies, disorderly person offenses. Each state is unique. In some states, misdemeanor is a felony and indictable and in some states its not. In Montana, poaching may or may not be a felony. Hunting elk without a license may be a crime, even a felony in Montana. To my knowledge withstanding possible correction, it is not in New Jersey. Further complicating the issue is the fact that law enforcement routinely overcharges with the highest classification and works for a plea to a lesser offense in the interest of saving time, money and resources. A disturbing question I have is the publicized fact that the investigation started 5 years ago. I imagine a good defense attorney can work with that fact. In conclusion, while being a devil's advocate of sorts, don't take that literally, I am disturbed by the conduct, if true, whatever it is classified. I do not understand why some resurrect and post 5 day old articles and call them updates if not to cast disparity on the character of the unconvicted and his family. But, that's just me.

You rather strongly make the case with your management integrity criteria analogy, that you would not invest with someone like Morse. You said, "If I were thinking of investing in a company and one of its top executives and his close associates were facing multiple felony charges, and, even worse, if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company."

How do your thoughtful, articulate representations impact those who read this forum and are on the fence about investing here? How does it impact someone who is thinking about investing in a small business here? How many homeowners and investors have you discouraged from investing? Could your observations be viewed as working against self interest, my interest and Villagers interest? By the way, the Villages Sun did carry the Montana story. Some research in the TOTV archives will produce its reference. It provided essential facts and shaded the article in the developer's interest. Your assertion that, "if that company, through its wholly owned newspaper, attempted to keep the news from the people with the most-legitimate interest in it, I would have serious misgivings about investing in that company." seems to be vicariously disingenuous. If Mr. Morse engaged someone to keep the news from the people as you suggest, he should dismiss them for incompetence.

You seemed to have tried and convicted Morse and his family on several broad based assumptions before the courts and the IRS have done their work. I respect your right to do so.

I have no connection whatsoever to the Morse family. I have been a critic of Mr. Morse on multiple occasions.

Thanks for the challenge.

Cabo35,
Thanks for your response. You make very vigorous and well-reasoned points and criticisms, and I respect them. They are the kind of arguments that can make this Forum a worthwhile place to exchange views.

In fact, I was going to leave the subject alone, thinking that I had said what I wanted to say. But I will return to it to vigorously explain why I disagree with just about everything you say.

The Mussolini analogy. I never meant to equate the Morses, with Mussolini. Mussolini killed people. The Morses allegedly only kill deer and elk out of season, without a license, and then leave their carcasses to rot in the field. I actually doubt if many readers interpreted my remarks to mean that l thought the two types of crimes are morally equivalent.

Yes, I know that the defendants have not been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers, but let's be realistic. At this stage of the judicial process, several governmental officials and organs (including, from news reports, a grand jury) have concluded that they probably are guilty. In any event, my analogy to Mussolini and the people of Italy was meant to indicate that just because a leader does a good job of running an orderly society, one should not overlook their bad deeds since an unethical leader can cause some very bad things to happen to his society. Poaching, in my view, can hardly be considered an activity that an ethical person would engage in. Whether or not it is a felony in New Jersey is irrelevant. It is a felony in Montana.

With respect to your statement that the Daily Sun did carry the poaching story, you have to be kidding. Only after the news appeared in papers throughout the country and virtually everybody here already knew about it, did the Sun finally report it. The report appeared on about page 9, with the title (in small print) to the effect of "Floridians charged in alleged game-law violation in Montana". The scanty references in the Sun to the IRS investigation have been similar and belated. I can cite other examples. This censorship doesn't bother you at all? It bothers the hell out of me. A lot of newspaper owners would tell their editors, "Report all the facts, and let the chips fall where they may."

The IRS Investigation I am very well aware that there are numerous other Community Development Districts in Florida that have also sold tax-exempt bonds and that those CDDs may be adversely affected by the outcome of the IRS investigation. I suppose that this may work to the benefit of The Villages Center Districts. I don't feel qualified to express my personal views on the merits of the IRS's claims; however, the potential costs of the IRS's sustaining its position are fairly easy to calculate.

While other CDDs have issued tax-exempt bonds, to the best of my knowledge, none of the other CDD developers have set up the equivalent of our center districts, where all the property is owned by the developer and all the board members are appointed by him. The IRS (and the class-action lawsuit) allege that this structure enables the developer to essentially sell the amenities and other property to himself at an artificially high price and pay the price with tax-exempt bonds. The IRS complains that the result is an over-issuance of tax exempt bonds, at the expense of the US Government. The class-action lawsuit complained that another result was such high debt-service costs that the Villages Center Development District was not financially able to fulfill its obligations with respect to furnishing amenities to The Villagers.

Am I rooting for the IRS to prevail, as you claim? Of course not, because if the IRS does prevail and if the resulting costs are not passed on to the Developer by the Center Districts, then you, I, and every other Villager will have a big problem to resolve. In trying to do so, we will have no homeowners' association to represent us (other than the POA, which has no dues-assessing power and which, thanks to the Developer's subsidizing the competing VHA, has a relatively small membership). In any event, nothing that you or I say here is going to affect the outcome of the IRS investigation.

Effect on Potential BuyersAs to your concern that posts like mine are scaring off potential buyers, the facts that I cite are a matter of public record and can be discovered by any potential buyer with access to the internet. Are you really saying that these facts, and they are facts, should be hidden from prospective buyers? Certainly, they do represent negative factors to be considered in deciding whether or not to buy here, but in making any investment, there are always positives and negatives. A prospective buyer is certainly entitled to know what the negatives ones are.

So, let's put the above negatives in perspective. There are offsetting positives. IF you want a place in Florida and you buy a house here instead of along the coast: you are much safer from hurricanes, crime, and traffic congestion, plus you will have access to a great life-style. My basic point is, let's be honest with each other, and let's not drink the Developer's Kool Aid without checking what's in it. All positives and negatives considered, I'm staying here, and Cabo35, I'm glad that you are apparently staying too.

[cabo35]

Advogado - Touche ......good post. I suspect there is more agreement than conflict in our assessments. Perhaps are viewpoints are somewhat at odds but I believe we both want to see this community succeed and continue to be the standard by which others are measured for quality of life. Your comments on the IRS investigation make a complex subject easier to read and digest than many other attempts to explain it....including the Orlando paper. I'm sure TOTV members will agree.

Have a good day in The Villages.

[barb1191]

Advogado - Touche ......good post. I suspect there is more agreement than conflict in our assessments. Perhaps are viewpoints are somewhat at odds but I believe we both want to see this community succeed and continue to be the standard by which others are measured for quality of life. Your comments on the IRS investigation make a complex subject easier to read and digest than many other attempts to explain it....including the Orlando paper. I'm sure TOTV members will agree.

Have a good day in The Villages.

:agree::agree:

[katezbox]

Cabo, Advogado,

Thank you for your well-reasoned arguments. They definitely made for good reading - and thinking!

[eweissenbach]

Effect on Potential BuyersAs to your concern that posts like mine are scaring off potential buyers, the facts that I cite are a matter of public record and can be discovered by any potential buyer with access to the internet. Are you really saying that these facts, and they are facts, should be hidden from prospective buyers? Certainly, they do represent negative factors to be considered in deciding whether or not to buy here, but in making any investment, there are always positives and negatives. A prospective buyer is certainly entitled to know what the negatives ones are.

So, let's put the above negatives in perspective. There are offsetting positives. IF you want a place in Florida and you buy a house here instead of along the coast: you are much safer from hurricanes, crime, and traffic congestion, plus you will have access to a great life-style. My basic point is, let's be honest with each other, and let's not drink the Developer's Kool Aid without checking what's in it. All positives and negatives considered, I'm staying here, and Cabo35, I'm glad that you are apparently staying too.

Absolutely agree - I am a prospective Villager, and NONE of the negative news about the developers gives me one moments doubt of my desire to live there. In fact a prevailing opinion that the developers are infallible, and that news negative to them should not be brought to light, would give me more pause than knowing that many of my neighbors were interested in the truth no matter where it falls. And since I was the one who brought up Hitler, and stated that I was in no way comparing the Morse's to him, I will say again that the analogy was used as an extreme example of people turning their heads to moral depravity because their lives are generally improved. The Villages concept is a fabulous and successful one which will likely outlive the developers and survive any personal missteps they continue to make.

[mermaid72]

"Absolutely agree - I am a prospective Villager, and NONE of the negative news about the developers gives me one moments doubt of my desire to live there. In fact a prevailing opinion that the developers are infallible, and that news negative to them should not be brought to light, would give me more pause than knowing that many of my neighbors were interested in the truth no matter where it falls. And since I was the one who brought up Hitler, and stated that I was in no way comparing the Morse's to him, I will say again that the analogy was used as an extreme example of people turning their heads to moral depravity because their lives are generally improved. The Villages concept is a fabulous and successful one which will likely outlive the developers and survive any personal missteps they continue to make." -- Oldcoach Ed

From my view, I disagree. I too have considered looking at the Villages as a place to retire. A developer who has such a lack of respect for life certainly makes me think twice about giving him any part of my hard-earned money. I consider a person who poaches or mistreats animals, on the same moral level as someone like the dogfighter football player -- (someone or another) Vic.
I certainly would never turn my head to that sort of behavior just because the Villages is such a nice place to live.
And...I really thank the original poster here for bringing this to my attention, it should be brought to light.

[eweissenbach]

From my view, I disagree. I too have considered looking at the Villages as a place to retire. A developer who has such a lack of respect for life certainly makes me think twice about giving him any part of my hard-earned money. I consider a person who poaches or mistreats animals, on the same moral level as someone like the dogfighter football player -- (someone or another) Vic.
I certainly would never turn my head to that sort of behavior just because the Villages is such a nice place to live.
And...I really thank the original poster here for bringing this to my attention, it should be brought to light.

With all due respect, if you live your life avoiding any of your money going to line the pockets of morally or ethically challenged people you will have little to spend your money on. In fact you will be forced to avoid paying taxes!

I too thank the original poster for bringing this up and beleive in truth and justice being vigorously pursued. I intend to buy a previously owned property so relatively little of my home purchase dollars will find their way to the developer. What money of mine does end up in the developers pocket will be well deserved, as it will be a reward to them for providing a great community in which to live.

[Tbugs]

Mermaid,

You now are not going to consider living in The Villages because one of the Developer's sons is charged (not yet found guilty) of poaching game (hunting on his own property without a personal hunting license)? You equate this to running a dog fighting ring like Michael Vick?

Did that sirloin steak you had for dinner come from a cow that committed suicide? Did that lobster do a swan-dive into the pot of boiling water thinking he was competing for Lobster Olympics? If you are a total vegan, you are in a class by yourself. If you eat eggs, think about the chickens in the little cages; if you drink milk, think about the dairy farms. There is animal cruelty in all of those things so do not get on a high horse (no pun intended) about hunting showing a lack of morality. I do not hunt but that is my personal choice and I do not condemn others for doing it.

Wait for a verdict before condemning anyone.

[mermaid72]

Poaching on his own land? Oh, that makes it ok, sort of like doing a crime is fine if you are in your own space! LOL
Now I have a couple of potential questions about the Villages, and am very interested to know about a place before I would move there. Who wouldn't? I'm sure you & everyone else who moved down checked the place out first. I want to live in a place where I am comfortable with, for lack of a better word, the ambiance. This extends to the developer as well.
Unfortunately, I have read, on these boards, many comments about liberals & their politics; about ethnicity, and generalities about those less fortunate than the middle class. This last episode concerning a creep (developer) who thought nothing about cutting off the legs of an animal so he could get a better ego photo op was really disturbing. All this gives me a lot to think about. However, I was pleased that most of the comments here showed that the residents were very upset about his actions.
I really appreciate the information that I glean from here, and enjoy reading all the comments.
As for my eating habits, we live out in the country, neighbor farmers here supply the food we don't grow ourselves, I know how it is raised. I have a pretty clear conscience. My dietary habits have nothing to do with some bubba poacher who has too much money & no sense of what is right or wrong. We do not hunt either, but as long as it is done legally, and humanely and with the intent to eat, it is acceptable.

[Bogie Shooter]

Poaching on his own land? Oh, that makes it ok, sort of like doing a crime is fine if you are in your own space! LOL
Now I have a couple of potential questions about the Villages, and am very interested to know about a place before I would move there. Who wouldn't? I'm sure you & everyone else who moved down checked the place out first. I want to live in a place where I am comfortable with, for lack of a better word, the ambiance. This extends to the developer as well.
Unfortunately, I have read, on these boards, many comments about liberals & their politics; about ethnicity, and generalities about those less fortunate than the middle class. This last episode concerning a creep (developer) who thought nothing about cutting off the legs of an animal so he could get a better ego photo op was really disturbing. All this gives me a lot to think about. However, I was pleased that most of the comments here showed that the residents were very upset about his actions.
I really appreciate the information that I glean from here, and enjoy reading all the comments.
As for my eating habits, we live out in the country, neighbor farmers here supply the food we don't grow ourselves, I know how it is raised. I have a pretty clear conscience. My dietary habits have nothing to do with some bubba poacher who has too much money & no sense of what is right or wrong. We do not hunt either, but as long as it is done legally, and humanely and with the intent to eat, it is acceptable.

You will probably not be happy in The Villages.

[redwitch]

Mermaid, I totally disagree with Bogie. Do I like the developer and the conservative nature of many Villagers? Of course not! Do I live happily having an ultra-right neighbor? You betchya (and I even enjoy sharing a meal with them). Do I resent not being able to listen to any non-Republican politician on TV property? Yes. Do I think the Daily Sun is a joke as a newspaper? Yuppers, but it serves its purpose -- to let us know what is going on in TV and to sell TV to visitors.

The developer is not The Villages. The people who live here are. You will not find a more generous group of people anywhere on this planet than you will find here. You drop your wallet and the odds are it will be returned completely intact (other than trying to find out how to contact you). You broke your leg? Be prepared for everyone on your street trying to help take care of you. Your house burned down? Don't be surprised if complete strangers offer their home to you.

Since the Morses want to sell homes and make money, they do an excellent job of maintaining the common properties. Thanks to volunteers, there are lots of clubs to join, things to do. The golf courses are pretty well-maintained. The rec centers are well-decorated, always clean, have almost anything you need for any game or sport.

TV is not perfect -- not even for a conservative -- but it is a pretty dang good place to live and enjoy. Don't judge it on its political leanings nor by the developers. They've done a good job of building TV. They're human; they use bad judgment at times. They can be as arrogant and self-centered as any human, especially a human with money. But they're not The Villages!

BTW -- It was not a Morse who cut the legs off the elk for the photo op -- it was Rainey.

[Tbugs]

Mermaid,
Redwitch is absolutely right about The Villages being a slice of Heaven with wonderful people all around. I am thankful every day that my wife and I moved here.

You will not be able to grow your own food here except for a few tomato plants, etc. Definitely, do look into the meat and fishing industry to see what kind of cruelty goes on there and you will see a hunter not being such a bad character.

Hunting on your own 50,000 acres should not be a crime - and isn't a crime in Montana - unless you are a non-resident owner. The outfitter's license was supposed to suffice for all the persons hunting but actually was a sting operation. A well paid lawyer will get them off.

[Talk Host]

The outfitter's license was supposed to suffice for all the persons hunting but actually was a sting operation. A well paid lawyer will get them off.


I believe the outfitter has also been charged in this case. I'm really, really, really curious where you got this information.

[graciegirl]

Poaching on his own land? Oh, that makes it ok, sort of like doing a crime is fine if you are in your own space! LOL
Now I have a couple of potential questions about the Villages, and am very interested to know about a place before I would move there. Who wouldn't? I'm sure you & everyone else who moved down checked the place out first. I want to live in a place where I am comfortable with, for lack of a better word, the ambiance. This extends to the developer as well.
Unfortunately, I have read, on these boards, many comments about liberals & their politics; about ethnicity, and generalities about those less fortunate than the middle class. This last episode concerning a creep (developer) who thought nothing about cutting off the legs of an animal so he could get a better ego photo op was really disturbing. All this gives me a lot to think about. However, I was pleased that most of the comments here showed that the residents were very upset about his actions.
I really appreciate the information that I glean from here, and enjoy reading all the comments.
As for my eating habits, we live out in the country, neighbor farmers here supply the food we don't grow ourselves, I know how it is raised. I have a pretty clear conscience. My dietary habits have nothing to do with some bubba poacher who has too much money & no sense of what is right or wrong. We do not hunt either, but as long as it is done legally, and humanely and with the intent to eat, it is acceptable.

Mermaid. It is important for you to know that the government here is a CDD so that people moving here are not able to change how things are run. There is no voting on whether we have a club house here or a golf course there are what goes on anywhere here. I am very happy with how things are run but some people have issues with yard ornaments not being allowed without permission, that you cannot fence in your yard and that there are no indoor pools and about dogs being allowed to go to the squares and about dogs pooping at the mail drops and other such things. AND you cannot vote to change any of those things.

You also need to know that well over half of people that live here are Republican and the paper has Republican editorials. The people invited to speak at the square and who come for book signings are mostly conservative Republicans. Democrats are not invited to do so.

There are many here who are very comfortable financially and are wonderful folks. There are those who haven't as much money and those people are wonderful folks. There are millionares living in villas and people having difficulty making ends meet living in Premiers. We have saints and sinners, famous people and ordinary people like me.

If that is an ambiance that doesn't seem comfy to you than I ask you to think and think again.

There are a good many people here who enjoy this place and don't share the politics but I sense that the unhappiness of some who post on here is because they do not like the politics of the developer and of the majority of residents.

Politics aren't something that guide me in my friendships and associations but a lot of people of a certain age seem to be more apt to choose friends because of political leanings.

That is my take.

I personally think it is the happiest, most wonderful and friendliest place I have ever lived.

[K9-Lovers]

Did that sirloin steak you had for dinner come from a cow that committed suicide? Did that lobster do a swan-dive into the pot of boiling water thinking he was competing for Lobster Olympics? If you are a total vegan, you are in a class by yourself. If you eat eggs, think about the chickens in the little cages; if you drink milk, think about the dairy farms. There is animal cruelty in all of those things so do not get on a high horse (no pun intended) about hunting showing a lack of morality. I do not hunt but that is my personal choice and I do not condemn others for doing it.
Wait for a verdict before condemning anyone.

:mademyday::clap2:

[K9-Lovers]

[QUOTE=Tbugs;333321]
Definitely, do look into the meat and fishing industry to see what kind of cruelty goes on there.. .. ..QUOTE]

:BigApplause:

[cabo35]

Unfortunately, I have read, on these boards, many comments about liberals & their politics; about ethnicity, and generalities about those less fortunate than the middle class.

2008 Presidential election - Sumter County

John McCain 30,866 or 63.16%

Barack Obama 17,655 or 36.13%

I am not sure I understand the context of your "liberals and their politics" remark, but election results in Sumter county where the greatest part of the electorate are Villagers, shows a significant predisposition to Republican and somewhat conservative majorities. If that would make you uncomfortable, perhaps a more urban Liberal Democratic venue would be better. Personally, like Gracie, I wouldn't let the political orientation of a venue be a factor in the decision making process to move there.

Have a good evening.

[Xavier]

"Absolutely agree - I am a prospective Villager, and NONE of the negative news about the developers gives me one moments doubt of my desire to live there. In fact a prevailing opinion that the developers are infallible, and that news negative to them should not be brought to light, would give me more pause than knowing that many of my neighbors were interested in the truth no matter where it falls. And since I was the one who brought up Hitler, and stated that I was in no way comparing the Morse's to him, I will say again that the analogy was used as an extreme example of people turning their heads to moral depravity because their lives are generally improved. The Villages concept is a fabulous and successful one which will likely outlive the developers and survive any personal missteps they continue to make." -- Oldcoach Ed

From my view, I disagree. I too have considered looking at the Villages as a place to retire. A developer who has such a lack of respect for life certainly makes me think twice about giving him any part of my hard-earned money. I consider a person who poaches or mistreats animals, on the same moral level as someone like the dogfighter football player -- (someone or another) Vic.
I certainly would never turn my head to that sort of behavior just because the Villages is such a nice place to live.
And...I really thank the original poster here for bringing this to my attention, it should be brought to light.

When one is making a life changing decision such as picking out just the right place to fullfil your dream of an active, relaxing retirement, you really need to look at all of your options. Paying special attention to the people who will become your neighbors and future friends is most important. Fortunately you have come to the right place. In these pages you will find a retirement community that just may be perfect for your sunshine years. Since you have some serious concerns about the character of the Developer of The Villages and his family, may I suggest that there is a whole forum thread here that will provide you with an alternative and it's close by too. The thread will give you all of the information you will need to make a rational decision. I'm sure it would benefit you to look into Lake Weir Living. They are advertisers on TOTV! Just :click: (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=164) to start your adventure. Good luck in your search for the perfect place.

[Xavier]

2008 Presidential election - Sumter County

John McCain 30,866 or 63.16%

Barack Obama 17,655 or 36.13%

I am not sure I understand the context of your "liberals and their politics" remark, but election results in Sumter county where the greatest part of the electorate are Villagers, shows a significant predisposition to Republican and somewhat conservative majorities. If that would make you uncomfortable, perhaps a more urban Liberal Democratic venue would be better. Personally, like Gracie, I wouldn't let the political orientation of a venue be a factor in the decision making process to move there.

Have a good evening.

Cabo35 GET READY:

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:

Xavier

[Russ_Boston]

2008 Presidential election - Sumter County

John McCain 30,866 or 63.16%

Barack Obama 17,655 or 36.13%


With these results it makes perfect sense why Democrats wouldn't waste a dime of their campaign money here.

[Pturner]

Why did this thread turn to politics?

[SALYBOW]

You know what? I have never met the Morses, the Raineys or the Parrs. I only meet the wonderful folks called Villagers. It does appear that the developers have a very solid slant toward a particular party, but it really doesn't effect me at all. I rarely even hear politics discussed around here.
Forget about all of these things when making your decision. Just observe the ambience. It is great!!!:spoken:

[K9-Lovers]

Sallybow is right, again!

[Russ_Boston]

Yep, sorry.

[zcaveman]

You know what? I have never met the Morses, the Raineys or the Parrs. I only meet the wonderful folks called Villagers. It does appear that the developers have a very solid slant toward a particular party, but it really doesn't effect me at all. I rarely even hear politics discussed around here.
Forget about all of these things when making your decision. Just observe the ambience. It is great!!!:spoken:

:agree:

[Pturner]

You know what? I have never met the Morses, the Raineys or the Parrs. I only meet the wonderful folks called Villagers. It does appear that the developers have a very solid slant toward a particular party, but it really doesn't effect me at all. I rarely even hear politics discussed around here.
Forget about all of these things when making your decision. Just observe the ambience. It is great!!!:spoken:

You have spoken well!

[Taj44]

In November 2008 prior to the elections the numbers from election supervisors from Lake, Marion and Sumter counties in the 26 precincts that make up The Villages showed registered Republicans account for 25,958 voters -- or 52 percent of the electorate , which doing the math, puts Democrats and Independents at 48%. So there are slightly more registered Republicans, so what. With retirees coming in every day from liberal states such as New York, I wouldn't be suprised if those demographics change over time.

Mermaid, please ignore the remarks you referred to. Some of the people posting here are regulars in the Political forum and, to say it nicely, just don't know how to play well with others. And, the people posting on TOTV are not necessarly representative of the people you'll meet in the Villages. In fact, many of the posters don't even live in The Villages. Most Villagers we have met are wonderful people, out to enjoy retirement. Its been easy to find people of a liberal persuasion to socialize with, and I have many friends who are not liberals. We just know enough not to discuss politics.

[mermaid72]

I hope that most people here are upset with the poaching charge, and it sounds like the majority are, and that pleases me to no end.

Cruelty to animals or any other living thing really gets me going, and I lose it, big time. So when I read the article about the Morse poaching incident, that was the last straw.
My partner & I were (maybe still are) coming to Fl in the spring for a look-see of possible retirement places, and I have been reading your most interesting boards to get an idea of what the place is like.
In the past, I made the mistake of answering a posted question, politically orientated, and was called some pretty harsh names, especially by one poster. That plus some other recent comments (not to me) about the habits of those less fortunate, make me really wonder if I would fit in here. No nasty cracks please! LOL
I strongly believe that we all have the right to express our opinions, but not insult each other while doing so. That's what America is all about.

Thanks to all of you who have been positive in your remarks, to the others....... what you put out, you always get back. I hope to continue to post here & maybe even visit your place in the sun!

I will be more than interested to know the legal outcome of the poaching charge.

[graciegirl]

Dear Mermaid.

No place and no group of people are perfect. There is a little bit of bad in the best of us and a little bit of good in the worst of us.

We cannot expect to see eye to eye on every issue. We cannot have the same values and we cannot agree which values are the right ones to have.

This place is such a happy place for me. I see more smiles and more sunshine and hear more wise statements here than in any place I have ever lived.

As my grandmother said when cleaning her house, "If you are looking for dirt, you will find it".

What you see here is a place like any other. Only in my opinion it is better.

Come down and see.

Hugs,
GG

[2BNTV]

Dear Mermaid.

No place and no group of people are perfect. There is a little bit of bad in the best of us and a little bit of good in the worst of us.

We cannot expect to see eye to eye on every issue. We cannot have the same values and we cannot agree which values are the right ones to have.

This place is such a happy place for me. I see more smiles and more sunshine and hear more wise statements here than in any place I have ever lived.

As my grandmother said when cleaning her house, "If you are looking for dirt, you will find it".

What you see here is a place like any other. Only in my opinion it is better.


Come down and see.

Hugs,
GG

:agree:

A visit will allow to see how beautiful TV is and you might be blown away in that it might be right for you.

With members of my family, I say, "for those who want to get together and have a good time, lets make plans. For those who want to make things miserable for others, stay hame to enjoy your misery".

[redwitch]

Mermaid, I think you need to understand that poaching is illegal, not necessarily cruel to animals, unless you of the opinion that hunting is inherently cruel. Mark Morse, his family and friends hunted on their lands without the proper hunting licenses. There is NO charge of animal abuse. Waste of carcasses, yes. Cruelty to animals, no.

I can understand wanting to wait and see the outcome of the IRS issues. I can understand someone being hesitant to move here because of the past acts of the developer and the recent settlement of a major lawsuit because of those past acts, but to say the poaching charges would make a difference makes little sense to me.

To judge TV by TOTV also makes little sense. The anonomity makes it easy to say things you would never say to a person's face. Sadly, some people just can't stop themselves or really don't realize how hateful and hurtful their words are.

I have said repeatedly that the best thing about TV is its residents. There is a generosity here that I've seen nowhere else on this earth (and I've seen a lot of this beautiful planet). I don't agree with the majority of conservatives in TV and that's okay. I love 'em, anyway, bless their misguided little hearts.

I don't care where you end up living, you'll never find a place that is 100% to your liking. No one (not even Gracie) does. You won't like every neighbor, you won't like every restaurant or golf course or ..... Just isn't in human nature to like everything. So, if you're going to judge TV because of TOTV or the poaching incidents, then I'd say TV really isn't right for you. Those two things seem to have soured you to our little slice of paradise and that attitude is pretty hard to overcome.

[Tbugs]

Redwitch is 110% right in her post.

Mermaid had better do some checking on the meatpacking and poultry packing plants as well as dairy farms and egg farms in the US. Look at them and you will see all types of animal cruelty. Chickens are de-beaked and live their lives in tiny cages to produce eggs - and killed for stew chicken or cat food when egg producing stops. Dairy cows are made pregnant every 2 years so they produce milk - and the newborn calves are made into veal. The cows are then slaughtered at about age 6 or 7 for stew meat or dog food when milk production slows down.

The charge against the Morse family is hunting without proper licenses on their own land. This is NOT animal cruelty. It is punishable by a fine - IF found guilty.

Redwitch says it perfectly it is foolish to judge The Villages or any community on the basis of a talk forum. However, if you do that and think the thinking is not to your liking, you probably would not be happy here. There are a lot of other communities in the US. Make your own choice and do not rely on a talk forum to do it for you.

[Bogie Shooter]

I hope that most people here are upset with the poaching charge, and it sounds like the majority are, and that pleases me to no end.

Cruelty to animals or any other living thing really gets me going, and I lose it, big time. So when I read the article about the Morse poaching incident, that was the last straw.
My partner & I were (maybe still are) coming to Fl in the spring for a look-see of possible retirement places, and I have been reading your most interesting boards to get an idea of what the place is like.
In the past, I made the mistake of answering a posted question, politically orientated, and was called some pretty harsh names, especially by one poster. That plus some other recent comments (not to me) about the habits of those less fortunate, make me really wonder if I would fit in here. No nasty cracks please! LOL
I strongly believe that we all have the right to express our opinions, but not insult each other while doing so. That's what America is all about.

Thanks to all of you who have been positive in your remarks, to the others....... what you put out, you always get back. I hope to continue to post here & maybe even visit your place in the sun!

I will be more than interested to know the legal outcome of the poaching charge.

There are more/or less 80,000 people in TV. Have you read 80,000 negative posts?? I would wait until you have visited before passing judgement.....based on TOTV postings.