Two things I just dont understand....

[Guest]

and there are many things I dont understand HOWEVER....

1. The Wisconsin Democrats have left town instead of needing to debate and vote on a bill that is anti union, knowing the Republicans would win a vote or so it appears.

2. Now the Indiana Democrats have left town for the same reason !

3. The President of the United States has entered the fray, albeit at this point only with rhetoric.

IF the Republicans or any other party left town in any state over an issue they could not win, AND a Republican President (lets say Bush) got involved in the fray, from my point of view there would be h... to pay !!!

Can anyone explain how this is becoming to be accepted as normal and acceptable behavior ???? I dont understand !

[Guest]

Wasn't the same thing done by Texas Dems about two years ago?

[Guest]

The liberal media, collectively and in one voice, would humiliate and belittle the Republican's in a similar situation. In this situation, with cowardice and dereliction of duty being shown by Democrats, the liberal media is supportive of the "dedication to principle" being shown by these disgraceful public servants fleeing their own state to avoid doing their elected duties.

I have to admit that I think the governor of Wisconsin has gone too far in trying to take away from the unions their hard fought for collective bargaining rights. I agree that the unions need to make major concessions, but I don't think they should be made to vote to destroy their own union.

[Guest]

I saw an interview with the governor where he was asked if a possible compromise would be the union giving in on the wage/benefit demands and Walker giving up on revoking the right to collectively bargain. Walker literally said 'no way'.

I'm no fan of unions, but.. It's one thing to ask for concessions. It's another to ask for concessions and refuse to allow the workers to ever ask for anything again.

[Guest]

I saw an interview with the governor where he was asked if a possible compromise would be the union giving in on the wage/benefit demands and Walker giving up on revoking the right to collectively bargain. Walker literally said 'no way'.

I'm no fan of unions, but.. It's one thing to ask for concessions. It's another to ask for concessions and refuse to allow the workers to ever ask for anything again.

Does this mean that you endorse the Democrats in two states simply hiding out to avoid a lost vote ?

Would you endorse that action if they were Republicans on another issue ?

Do you think the President should become involved, even if only orally, with state budget process ?

Reason for these questions and the reason for the thread is that a number of threads are discussing the issue itself...a lot of networks also, but I am struck by the silence on the Dems simply hiding out and recall the other party being called a lot of names for simply trying to filibuster...amazing to me the different outlook...is this the new political game....we will lose so we just wont come to work !!!

[Guest]

Franklin Roosevelt, the darling of the democrat party said,

"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service."

"I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place" in the public sector. "A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2675825/posts

The teachers should be fired. The democrats who fled town should be removed from office and the doctors writing the fraudulent medical excuses should loose their licenses. But that's just me.

[Guest]

Remember, FDR said that when "union bargaining" usually involved a strike.

I can EASILY see making strikes illegal for government workers for a variety of reasons. But to take away the right to bargain as a unit? THAT, I have a problem with.

Without striking, unionized workers can have perfectly legal "job actions" - like refusing overtime, etc.

I was completely in agreement with Reagan firing the air traffic controllers.

[Guest]

But to take away the right to bargain as a unit? THAT, I have a problem with.

We're talking about public employees here. Their paychecks come from our pay checks.

We're paying the bills for people who on average make sometimes double what private sector employees make. All at a time when the private sector were loosing jobs, people loosing their homes, etc, etc, etc. During that time Obama added yet another 200,000 more public jobs... again paid for by our tax dollars.

They shouldn't have the right to bargain at ALL when they live off other peoples money. They should be grateful.

[Guest]

Initially unions raised the standard of living for the average guy and created better working conditions. However somewhere along the way they begain competing against thremselves to justify their existence. Along this same path via lawsuits, employment laws, legislature ,etc employees gained emplolyment rights and protection. So the questions now are what should the unions role be? Do unions benefit their industries ( auto, service, teacher, etc) ? Can American corporations compete globally?
Are unions obsolete?

[Guest]

The Texas Dems left back in 2003 over redistricting.

[Guest]

If people wish to join a union, the shriners, a local charity, a church and support it with their time, effort and money, that should be their right. If a person chooses not to join any of these organizations, no-one should be able to compel them to do so, and no-one nor any organization should be able to claim a right to their time, person or property.

Doctors do not have to join the AMA in order to practice medicine; lawyers do not have to join the ABA in order to practice law - then why should a teacher be required to pay dues to a union in order to teach?

[Guest]

"They shouldn't have the right to bargain at all when they live off other peoples money. They should be thankful." So you are saying that teachers,firefighters and police should not have the right to negotiate a fair contract? I think you should be thankful that we have people who are willing to do these jobs. Maybe we all should be thankful and none of us should be able to negotiate. Lets let all these high paid execs determine our salaries.

[Guest]

I assume from reading this thread that everyone thinks it is just fine for a minority party to leave their job and the state and hide out because they dont want to lose a vote !!!

Does not matter the issue or the party to me....that upsets me but obviously not others

[Guest]

dk: Where does YOUR paycheck come from?

And, for the record, I could be making more money in the private sector. Never once have I been a member of a union, nor will I ever join one. Why am I where I am? I'm basically giving up some in the paycheck department in exchange for more security and a couple of other personal reasons.

I have a particular loathing for the Postal unions - again, personal reasons. I wouldn't mind seeing them decertified and to be shown for the criminals that they (in the leadership) are. Doesn't mean that I think it's wrong to organize.

I have a problem going further than clauses that prevent public employees from going on strike. I agreed with firing the air-traffic controllers.

[Guest]

The country is .................BROKE! Doesnt anyone get it!!!!

DK I agree with you:agree:

[Guest]

represent the people anything like voting "present" instead of yes or no?

Per Bucco's statement they are avoiding the inevitable and since most are lawyers they know exactly to what extent they can use, abuse or hide behind the law to accomplish their objective...not voting....what kind of representation is that.

btk

[Guest]

I'm surprised by the several posts that have distain for Unions in this country.

My husband attended Berkeley in the early 70's, received a degree in education and could not get a job, the economy was bad. His Father a member of the ILWU helped him get a part time job taking cargo on and off ships in the port of Los Angeles and Long Beach, California. My husband continued working at the ports for 40 years as a crane man and foreman until his retirement this month. His Union fought for their benefits, salaries and Freedom. If they had not, the shippers would continue their greed at the expense of the workers.

I love being an American and I'm grateful we can have a union voice. Sometimes the little people get lost and as a group we can be heard.

Thank you:a040:

[Guest]

I just checked my last pay stub for year 2010. I see where I payed almost $3000 union dues that went indirectly in the pockets of the Democratic party. I tried to opt out of the union about 15 years ago as I saw it as being a very corrupt organization. Well to my surprise even though I opt out I still pay my union dues. My union USWA spends way too much effort fighting to keep the trouble makers employed and is a puppet for the Democratic party.

[Guest]

You'll get no argument from me about the corruption in so many unions. Heck, I have a picture taken inside a Postal facility that shows the union violating federal privacy laws but they've never been taken to task for it. (They targeted my now-ex-wife and others - calling them 'scabs' for not being union members, telling the membership to "let them know how you feel" - which was a code word for vandalism)

[Guest]

I just checked my last pay stub for year 2010. I see where I payed almost $3000 union dues that went indirectly in the pockets of the Democratic party. I tried to opt out of the union about 15 years ago as I saw it as being a very corrupt organization. Well to my surprise even though I opt out I still pay my union dues. My union USWA spends way too much effort fighting to keep the trouble makers employed and is a puppet for the Democratic party.

$3000???? That would be $250.00 a month!! Dues are typically 2.5 times the hourly wage rate per month. By your figure, that would be a $100.00 an hour job. Is Is your job still open? I may come out of retirement for that one.

I also, did not appreciate my local unions electioneering efforts that I didn't agree with; but on the other hand they usually were trying to help candidates who purported to be sympathetic to the concerns of the union worker. It's was just my feelings about the remainder of that candidate's liberal positions that would cause me grief.

[Guest]

$3000???? That would be $250.00 a month!! Dues are typically 2.5 times the hourly wage rate per month. By your figure, that would be a $100.00 an hour job. Is Is your job still open? I may come out of retirement for that one.

I also, did not appreciate my local unions electioneering efforts that I didn't agree with; but on the other hand they usually were trying to help candidates who purported to be sympathetic to the concerns of the union worker. It's was just my feelings about the remainder of that candidate's liberal positions that would cause me grief.

RichieLion. Yes I have a very good job and I put in very long hours. I average about 70 hours a week. My choice and not forced OT.
What upsets me is I do go to a union meeting and ask for funds or to have a Republican come and talk at our meetings I am always denied. Yet two or three times a year a Liberal congressman who was under Federal Watch list with Murtha comes and we give him big bucks. They don't want to talk to anyone who doesn't toe the line.
I am thinking it was close to 10 years ago there was an unofficial poll and the membership was about 65% Liberal and 35% Conservative. I do wish our donations to the parties was split that way as well.
My company is 40% foreign owned and if I have a problem I go to our foreign partner and the problem is solved without using our union.

[Guest]

Appliance Park Louisville, KY employment 1965...10,000

1975...20,000

2005...6,000

2010...3,000

btk

[Guest]

I read a lot of anti-union posts here. However what I do not see is an alternative. Please do not tell me that management will negotiate. Why do some of you see the common worker who is a union member as the enemy and let corporate big wigs do anything they want. I happen to believe that they with their inflated salaries and benefits are the real threat. Even when they fail they are given million dollar buyouts but nothing is said about them.

[Guest]

RichieLion. Yes I have a very good job and I put in very long hours. I average about 70 hours a week. My choice and not forced OT.
What upsets me is I do go to a union meeting and ask for funds or to have a Republican come and talk at our meetings I am always denied. Yet two or three times a year a Liberal congressman who was under Federal Watch list with Murtha comes and we give him big bucks. They don't want to talk to anyone who doesn't toe the line.
I am thinking it was close to 10 years ago there was an unofficial poll and the membership was about 65% Liberal and 35% Conservative. I do wish our donations to the parties was split that way as well.
My company is 40% foreign owned and if I have a problem I go to our foreign partner and the problem is solved without using our union.

Unions, understandably are not going to help or promote a political candidate that doesn't plan on helping the union with it's mission. The union needs easier organizing rules in the arena of the private job sector and legislators who advocate that non-union companies comply with the job safety regulations that the union demands of the unionized employer. In the private sector the union has to strive for a level playing field.

Of course, this doesn't really apply in the public sector. The public employee usually makes no commodity of financial value and his employer will not go out of business if it spends more than it produces. Virtually every public employee is "overhead". Therefore this worker doesn't live in the normal world of "supply and demand" and will not easily be coerced into giving back any portion of their compensation to balance a budget.

All the improvements in the private sector workers life, (such as the 8 hr. day, the 40 hr. week, paid vacation, overtime pay etc., etc.) which were hard won by worker unions are now regarded as entitlements and part of the fabric of life. People think they'll never go away and the day of the need for unions are long past. I guess we'll see, because the unions are in decline and soon employers will have little need to boost compensation so that their employees don't take the risk of organizing. Will the future of the worker be better because of this? We shall see.

[Guest]

I read a lot of anti-union posts here. However what I do not see is an alternative. Please do not tell me that management will negotiate. Why do some of you see the common worker who is a union member as the enemy and let corporate big wigs do anything they want. I happen to believe that they with their inflated salaries and benefits are the real threat. Even when they fail they are given million dollar buyouts but nothing is said about them.

Thank you :pepper2:

[Guest]

I read a lot of anti-union posts here. However what I do not see is an alternative. Please do not tell me that management will negotiate. Why do some of you see the common worker who is a union member as the enemy and let corporate big wigs do anything they want. I happen to believe that they with their inflated salaries and benefits are the real threat. Even when they fail they are given million dollar buyouts but nothing is said about them.

I also want to, because it's unusual for me, to AGREE WITH EVERY WORD YOU SAID!!

I am and will always be UNION PROUD.:MOJE_whot:

[Guest]

that are no longer her in the USA as a result of inefficient, over compensated organized labor. Has nothing to do with liberal, conservative, party, color religion or what ever floats ones boat...the jobs are gone due to excessive costs of doing business like in Appliance Park Louisville, KY.

The union was presented the opportunity to keep the jobs in KY. They were not asked to meet the offshore pricing, but some percentage less than the current rates. The unions position was all or nothing...they got it...nothing.
Turned down one dollar per hour less VS losing the work. The jobs are gone....nuff said regardless ones bent!!

btk