Amenities Owned by the Developer

[batman911]

Read this article in todays newspaper. Gives an insight into what can go wrong when the property owners/residents do not own the ammenities in their community. Could TV golf courses be opened to the public after build out? How about pools and recreation centers? Just looking for discussion on the subject.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110227_Condo_dispute_boils_over_common_areas.htm l

[ricthemic]

Read this article in todays newspaper. Gives an insight into what can go wrong when the property owners/residents do not own the ammenities in their community. Could TV golf courses be opened to the public after build out? How about pools and recreation centers? Just looking for discussion on the subject.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110227_Condo_dispute_boils_over_common_areas.htm l

I believe all the executive courses (thirty, +/-) are owned by the residents and I think the pools and rec centers are too.
All the championship courses (nine or ten?) are owned by the developer and have always been open to the public. So not sure how that would change when and if they are sold. Maybe some would become private or semi- private.
Could be wrong, so please someone enlighten me.
Also your link happened in Hawaii... maybe the state laws are different there.

[Mikeod]

I think the executive courses south of 466 are still owned by the developer. You're right that the championship courses are also owned by the developer. Eventually, all the executive courses will be owned by the residents. I, too, wonder about the future of the championship courses after build-out. Right now, they are priced to be self-sustaining, but if turned over to a management company who wants to make a profit (or larger profit) the fees may go up significantly. The only good thing is that there are a lot of courses nearby that have fees that are similar (and, in some cases, significantly lower) to ours. That may prevent any huge increase in fees at the championship courses.

[actor]

I think the executive courses south of 466 are still owned by the developer. You're right that the championship courses are also owned by the developer. Eventually, all the executive courses will be owned by the residents. I, too, wonder about the future of the championship courses after build-out. Right now, they are priced to be self-sustaining, but if turned over to a management company who wants to make a profit (or larger profit) the fees may go up significantly. The only good thing is that there are a lot of courses nearby that have fees that are similar (and, in some cases, significantly lower) to ours. That may prevent any huge increase in fees at the championship courses.

courses were ever raised substantially, I think that many would stop playing them. These courses aren't nice enough that people would pay a lot of money to play.

[scroll]

People not the golf courses make TV great and a wonderful place to be each and every day.

[EdV]

Per the Covenants and Restrictions that you signed when you purchased your home in TV:

(g) Purchasers of Homesites further agree, by the acceptance of their deeds and the payment of the purchase price therefore, acknowledge that the purchase price was solely for the purchase of their Homesite or Homesites, and that the owners, their heirs, successors and assigns, do not have any right, title or claim or interest in and to the recreational areas, security facilities, dedicated or reserved areas or facilities contained therein or appurtenant thereto, by reason of the purchase of their respective Homesites, it being specifically agreed that, (1) the Developer, its successors and assigns, is the sole and exclusive owner of the areas and facilities, and (2) the Contractual Amenities Fee is a fee for services and is in no way adjusted according to the cost of providing those services.

The developer set up two special districts (the VCCDD and SLCDD) which he has total control over. He has sold some of the executive golf cources to thos CDD’s and pocketed the cash, but he still maintain total control over those two CDDs.

In short, the residents of TV do not and never will own any of the rec centers, pools , executive courses, etc. etc. etc.

[UpNorth]

For many years, The Villages has advertised "Play Free Golf For Life". Of course, we know this is a bit of a stretch, since the monthly amentity fees cover the cost of maintaining the executive courses. However, this "Free Golf" pitch hasn't been used for several years now. This leads me to believe that greens fees for the executive courses is in our future.

[batman911]

I agree that the outside golf course fees will dictate what TV golf courses charge. I'm sure that those that have purchased golf couse front lots (as we plan to do) are concerned that the golf courses remain profitable to protect their home lot investment. The worst thing that could happen is to have the golf courses go under and have the landowner build more homes or businesses on the property. Does anyone know if the zoning would allow that?

[iaudit]

For many years, The Villages has advertised "Play Free Golf For Life". Of course, we know this is a bit of a stretch, since the monthly amentity fees cover the cost of maintaining the executive courses. However, this "Free Golf" pitch hasn't been used for several years now. This leads me to believe that greens fees for the executive courses is in our future.

Per the Covenants and Restrictions that you signed when you purchased your home in TV:

(a) The Developer or its designee shall perpetually provide the recreational facilities.

[Chi-Town]

Up north I have seen many cases of golf courses being changed from 27 or 18 holes to 18 and 9 holes. Sometimes no holes. High density housing usually replaced the open land even though single family houses were on the courses originally. I hope this will not be the case in TV as I live on one of the Palmer nines.

[The Great Fumar]

Many years ago in a board meeting I was told " John, if your going to eavesdrop, pay attention " and I might pass on this piece of advice to some of these posters.

We here north of 466 already own the our executive courses , our rec centers , swimming pools and tennis courts and as for the "FREE FOR LIFE ADD ON TV" I heard it again just 3 days ago on national TV......So lets try to keep our criticisms accurate about the neatest retirement spot known to man.........I say again ,
.... IF YOUR GOING TO EAVESDROP , PAY ATTENTION......

Golf front owner ....fumar...:plane:

[iaudit]

Many years ago in a board meeting I was told " John, if your going to eavesdrop, pay attention " and I might pass on this piece of advice to some of these posters.

We here north of 466 already own the our executive courses , our rec centers , swimming pools and tennis courts and as for the "FREE FOR LIFE ADD ON TV" I heard it again just 3 days ago on national TV......So lets try to keep our criticisms accurate about the neatest retirement spot known to man.........I say again ,
.... IF YOUR GOING TO EAVESDROP , PAY ATTENTION......

Golf front owner ....fumar...:plane:

Sorry, Fumar, the executive courses and other recreational facilities north of 466 are owned by the Village Center Community Development District (VCCDD), managed by Janet Tutt, who reports to Board of Supervisors that are elected/appointed by the property owners in the Village Center, who are none other than (drum roll), the Morse Family. The transaction that sold these facilities to the VCCDD is the one that is being looked at by the IRS because the purchase was done with tax free bonds. You do own the nice flower beds along the roadside and at the traffic circles, you also own the new cart paths. Hope that makes you feel better.

[The Great Fumar]

Sorry, Fumar, the executive courses and other recreational facilities north of 466 are owned by the Village Center Community Development District (VCCDD), managed by Janet Tutt, who reports to Board of Supervisors that are elected/appointed by the property owners in the Village Center, who are none other than (drum roll), the Morse Family. The transaction that sold these facilities to the VCCDD is the one that is being looked at by the IRS because the purchase was done with tax free bonds. You do own the nice flower beds along the roadside and at the traffic circles, you also own the new cart paths. Hope that makes you feel better.

Sorry iaudit .....You may want reread my post and then read yours
'property owners own the courses and rec centers , the developer doesn't.....
The tax matter will fade in the sunset just as it has the last two times........as you already know the agent has been reassigned and it was not a promotion ...

[iaudit]

Sorry iaudit .....You may want reread my post and then read yours
'property owners own the courses and rec centers , the developer doesn't.....
The tax matter will fade in the sunset just as it has the last two times........as you already know the agent has been reassigned and it was not a promotion ...

Sorry, Fumar, follow this link:
http://www.districtgov.org/yourdistrict/front.aspx?district=vc

It tells you all about the VCCDD. In particular, it says:

The District is comprised of commercial properties owned by The Villages of Lake-Sumter, Incorporated, and various other commercial entities.(Morse Family)

Inasmuch as there are no residential properties contained within the boundaries of the Village Center Community Development District, members of the Board of Supervisors will continue to be elected by the landowners of property within the boundaries of the District (Morse Family)

Among the services provided by Village Center Community Development District to residential properties within The Villages are security, fire and emergency medical first response (non-transport) services, recreational facilities and services, stormwater collection and distribution and treated effluent distribution, and executive golf.

[Advogado]

Many years ago in a board meeting I was told " John, if your going to eavesdrop, pay attention " and I might pass on this piece of advice to some of these posters.

We here north of 466 already own the our executive courses , our rec centers , swimming pools and tennis courts and as for the "FREE FOR LIFE ADD ON TV" I heard it again just 3 days ago on national TV......So lets try to keep our criticisms accurate about the neatest retirement spot known to man.........I say again ,
.... IF YOUR GOING TO EAVESDROP , PAY ATTENTION......

Golf front owner ....fumar...:plane:
I'm afraid that you are mistaken, and I cannot imagine where you got your information.

You own NONE of the above amenities, and, as earlier posters have pointed out, you never will. What you have is a contractual right to receive access to them, in exchange for your monthly amenities fees. You can get a basic, but spinned, explanation of the basic system by attending one of the community development orientation programs put on by the district government.

The amenities north of 466 are, in fact, owned by the Villages Center Community Development District, which is basically the district that encompasses Spanish Springs. Virtually all the property in that District is owned by the Developer. Therefore, the District's board members are all designated by the Developer.

Some aspects of the system glossed over in the orientation program: (1) pending IRS investigation of the tax-exempt bonds used to finance the whole system; and (2) class-action law suit (settled for $40 million) against the Developer and the VCCDD when the VCCDD failed to maintain the amenities. Both the investigation and the law suit are based on the Developer's alleged overpricing of the the amenities (and amenities' contracts) sold by the Developer to the VCCDD.

It's complicated, but you can go to the Property Owners' Association website and check back issues of the Bulletin for details. www.poa4us.org Or, check the Lauren Ritchie's Orlando Sentinel articles on the subject (a little inflammatory, I admit).

You are spot on about two things, however: (1) This is a neat retirement spot; and (2) It is good to pay attention as to what is going on. We shouldn't get caught up in the neatness of this place, turn off our brains, and not look at what is going on underneath the surface-- if we want this place to remain a neat retirement spot.

[EdV]

'property owners own the courses and rec centers , the developer doesn't....

Fumar, have you been forgetting to wash your vegetables again?

[Taj44]

We shouldn't get caught up in the neatness of this place, turn off our brains, and not look at what is going on underneath the surface-- if we want this place to remain a neat retirement spot.

Great advice. :coolsmiley:

[The Great Fumar]

Fumar, have you been forgetting to wash your vegetables again?

You really should get out more , Stonecrest is clouding your comprehension..........:girlneener:

[UpNorth]

Many years ago in a board meeting I was told " John, if your going to eavesdrop, pay attention " and I might pass on this piece of advice to some of these posters.

We here north of 466 already own the our executive courses , our rec centers , swimming pools and tennis courts and as for the "FREE FOR LIFE ADD ON TV" I heard it again just 3 days ago on national TV......So lets try to keep our criticisms accurate about the neatest retirement spot known to man.........I say again ,
.... IF YOUR GOING TO EAVESDROP , PAY ATTENTION......

Golf front owner ....fumar...:plane:

Yes, they will probably honor the "Free Golf For Life" in the future, once they add another $50 to the monthly anemnity fee...

[stjames]

Yes, EdVnMass has it right with a direct quote from the covenants and restrictions all buyers sign. The amenities will never be owned by our CDDs.
They are owned by the VCCDD or what is the Morse family.
The clubhouses and pools are maintained very well, there is Free 9 hole golf and the use of these facilities is certainly worth the amenity fee ea. month.
But don't forget that the amenity fee goes up ea. yr. based on the CPI index and the likelyhood of 6-10% inflation within 2-3 yrs. is very high. Don't forget that the percentage of increase is based on the previous year's fees. Therefore, a compounding effect occurs which will drive amenity fees up much faster than many realize.

Moreover, the biggest concern is really about the level of maintenance
in the future. It's great now.

(1) But what leverage, legal or otherwise do the residents have to demand that a high level of maintenance continues.

(2) What if VCCDD decides to close some of the clubhouses because they
say that the amenity fees will not support all the amenities?

(3) What reaction would Village residents have if the facilities were opened to the public for a fee?

If any or all of these situations developed many resiedents would want
to stop paying their amenity fees however don't forget that part of the purchase agreement all residents signed that states that the VCCDD, the
corporation/Morse family (at least one of these entities) have a
"FIRST LEIN" on your home. Thank you very much for your home!!!!!!

If any of these situations developed above I would think that the great
majority of owners would end up still paying their amenity fee despite
the downward trend of ambience of The Villages.

Also, keep in mind that Morse is being investigated by the IRS for an
abuse, at least, of the sale of muni-bonds to build the amenities. The regional office of the IRS has instructed Morse to sell the munis, pay back taxes of at least 15million and to acquire new bonds to pay for the amenities
and to not float any more munis. Morse has appealed this finding and as
many know this stand-off has been going on for one and half years.
However, if the IRS wins with its original ruling, stated above, where would
Morse find the money to acquire new bonds, much less would the sale
of the existing munis be at a low price, given the muni-market current
difficulties.

Many that read this post will just say: "Speculation! Speculation!"
But these are really serious questions about the future of The Villages.
So I leave you with two questions that I hope will draw some responses.
I don't know the answers to these two questions, so I'm hoping to hear
if there is any recourse The Village residents would have or is the
answer simply: "NONE" - OUT OF LUCK!. I know that there are some former
lawyers that live in The Villages and others with some expertise in these
areas. Hopefully, they will respond also. Please ask others to read this
post. "The wisdom of many is always superior to the wisdom of a few"

(1) What legal or other methods of leverage do The Village residents have
available to them currently to force a high level of maintenance if
that maintenance level declines?

(2) What legal or other methods of leverage do The Village residents have
to prevent one or more clubhouses/pools from being closed if the VCCDD
runs into financial difficulty?

Thanks for reading this post and would greatly
appreciate any replies.

[graciegirl]

Yes, EdVnMass has it right with a direct quote from the covenants and restrictions all buyers sign. The amenities will never be owned by our CDDs.
They are owned by the VCCDD or what is the Morse family.
The clubhouses and pools are maintained very well, there is Free 9 hole golf and the use of these facilities is certainly worth the amenity fee ea. month.
But don't forget that the amenity fee goes up ea. yr. based on the CPI index and the likelyhood of 6-10% inflation within 2-3 yrs. is very high. Don't forget that the percentage of increase is based on the previous year's fees. Therefore, a compounding effect occurs which will drive amenity fees up much faster than many realize.

Moreover, the biggest concern is really about the level of maintenance
in the future. It's great now.

(1) But what leverage, legal or otherwise do the residents have to demand that a high level of maintenance continues.

(2) What if VCCDD decides to close some of the clubhouses because they
say that the amenity fees will not support all the amenities?

(3) What reaction would Village residents have if the facilities were opened to the public for a fee?

If any or all of these situations developed many resiedents would want
to stop paying their amenity fees however don't forget that part of the purchase agreement all residents signed that states that the VCCDD, the
corporation/Morse family (at least one of these entities) have a
"FIRST LEIN" on your home. Thank you very much for your home!!!!!!

If any of these situations developed above I would think that the great
majority of owners would end up still paying their amenity fee despite
the downward trend of ambience of The Villages.

Also, keep in mind that Morse is being investigated by the IRS for an
abuse, at least, of the sale of muni-bonds to build the amenities. The regional office of the IRS has instructed Morse to sell the munis, pay back taxes of at least 15million and to acquire new bonds to pay for the amenities
and to not float any more munis. Morse has appealed this finding and as
many know this stand-off has been going on for one and half years.
However, if the IRS wins with its original ruling, stated above, where would
Morse find the money to acquire new bonds, much less would the sale
of the existing munis be at a low price, given the muni-market current
difficulties.

Many that read this post will just say: "Speculation! Speculation!"
But these are really serious questions about the future of The Villages.
So I leave you with two questions that I hope will draw some responses.
I don't know the answers to these two questions, so I'm hoping to hear
if there is any recourse The Village residents would have or is the
answer simply: "NONE" - OUT OF LUCK!. I know that there are some former
lawyers that live in The Villages and others with some expertise in these
areas. Hopefully, they will respond also. Please ask others to read this
post. "The wisdom of many is always superior to the wisdom of a few"

(1) What legal or other methods of leverage do The Village residents have
available to them currently to force a high level of maintenance if
that maintenance level declines?

(2) What legal or other methods of leverage do The Village residents have
to prevent one or more clubhouses/pools from being closed if the VCCDD
runs into financial difficulty?

Thanks for reading this post and would greatly
appreciate any replies.

WELL...in about 20 years I would guess that at least half of the people getting their knickers in a hitch aren't going to be playing golf here, maybe they'll be teeing it up in the village of Heavenly.

Life is way....way....way too short for this angst.

Gracie, head cheerfully in sand but not dumb.

[swrinfla]

Gracie said: "Life is way....way....way too short for this angst."

Oh my, how much :agree: :agree: :agree:

I understand that many of our newer residents are still youngsters - that is, barely 65 - and so they are, perhaps looking further into the future than those of us who are on the down-hill side of 70! Still, your "youth" does not justify the anger!

SWR
:beer3:

[Advogado]

Yes, EdVnMass has it right with a direct quote from the covenants and restrictions all buyers sign. The amenities will never be owned by our CDDs.
They are owned by the VCCDD or what is the Morse family.
The clubhouses and pools are maintained very well, there is Free 9 hole golf and the use of these facilities is certainly worth the amenity fee ea. month.
But don't forget that the amenity fee goes up ea. yr. based on the CPI index and the likelyhood of 6-10% inflation within 2-3 yrs. is very high. Don't forget that the percentage of increase is based on the previous year's fees. Therefore, a compounding effect occurs which will drive amenity fees up much faster than many realize.

Moreover, the biggest concern is really about the level of maintenance
in the future. It's great now.

(1) But what leverage, legal or otherwise do the residents have to demand that a high level of maintenance continues.

(2) What if VCCDD decides to close some of the clubhouses because they
say that the amenity fees will not support all the amenities?

(3) What reaction would Village residents have if the facilities were opened to the public for a fee?

If any or all of these situations developed many resiedents would want
to stop paying their amenity fees however don't forget that part of the purchase agreement all residents signed that states that the VCCDD, the
corporation/Morse family (at least one of these entities) have a
"FIRST LEIN" on your home. Thank you very much for your home!!!!!!

If any of these situations developed above I would think that the great
majority of owners would end up still paying their amenity fee despite
the downward trend of ambience of The Villages.

Also, keep in mind that Morse is being investigated by the IRS for an
abuse, at least, of the sale of muni-bonds to build the amenities. The regional office of the IRS has instructed Morse to sell the munis, pay back taxes of at least 15million and to acquire new bonds to pay for the amenities
and to not float any more munis. Morse has appealed this finding and as
many know this stand-off has been going on for one and half years.
However, if the IRS wins with its original ruling, stated above, where would
Morse find the money to acquire new bonds, much less would the sale
of the existing munis be at a low price, given the muni-market current
difficulties.

Many that read this post will just say: "Speculation! Speculation!"
But these are really serious questions about the future of The Villages.
So I leave you with two questions that I hope will draw some responses.
I don't know the answers to these two questions, so I'm hoping to hear
if there is any recourse The Village residents would have or is the
answer simply: "NONE" - OUT OF LUCK!. I know that there are some former
lawyers that live in The Villages and others with some expertise in these
areas. Hopefully, they will respond also. Please ask others to read this
post. "The wisdom of many is always superior to the wisdom of a few"

(1) What legal or other methods of leverage do The Village residents have
available to them currently to force a high level of maintenance if
that maintenance level declines?

(2) What legal or other methods of leverage do The Village residents have
to prevent one or more clubhouses/pools from being closed if the VCCDD
runs into financial difficulty?

Thanks for reading this post and would greatly
appreciate any replies.

Your concerns about the IRS investigation are legitimate, but, at this stage, we apparently will have to await its outcome to determine if we have a problem and, if so, its magnitude. However, your $15 million figure is a gross understatement of the potential financial magnitude of the issue. While it sounds like a lot of money, if that were all we were talking about, I wouldn't be particularly concerned. Where did your $15-million figure come from? Here is a brief summary of the situation and dollar amounts involved: http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/118_142/-305665-1.html


By alerting the IRS to the potential impact of an adverse decision on Villagers, I think that the POA has done all that can be done on behalf of the residents-- for the time being.

Basic answers to your questions about the possible adverse effects of the IRS investigation on residents can be found in the current POA Bulletin. Refer to page 9 in the "Editor's Response" section and to page 12, item #4.

Also consider that IF action against the Developer again becomes necessary to protect our rights because of the IRS investigation or for any other reason, as happened at the time of the class-action lawsuit, the POA is the ONLY organization that we have to represent us and to protect our interests. (The VHA, as you probably realize, is essentially a front for the Developer.) For that reason, the POA deserves both our time and our financial support in order to try to ensure that it is here and healthy if we need it.

In addition, since we have no local newspaper, the Talk of the Villages forum will be invaluable, if something bad happens vis-a-vis the Developer, as a means of communicating among ourselves and developing a concerted plan of action. For that reason, I hope that the TOV also continues to thrive.

[graciegirl]

Your concerns about the IRS investigation are legitimate, but, at this stage, we apparently will have to await its outcome to determine if we have a problem and, if so, its magnitude. However, your $15 million figure is a gross understatement of the potential financial magnitude of the issue. While it sounds like a lot of money, if that were all we were talking about, I wouldn't be particularly concerned. Where did your $15-million figure come from? Here is a brief summary of the situation and dollar amounts involved: http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/118_142/-305665-1.html


By alerting the IRS to the potential impact of an adverse decision on Villagers, I think that the POA has done all that can be done on behalf of the residents-- for the time being.

Basic answers to your questions about the possible adverse effects of the IRS investigation on residents can be found in the current POA Bulletin. Refer to page 9 in the "Editor's Response" section and to page 12, item #4.

Also consider that IF action against the Developer again becomes necessary to protect our rights because of the IRS investigation or for any other reason, as happened at the time of the class-action lawsuit, the POA is the ONLY organization that we have to represent us and to protect our interests. (The VHA, as you probably realize, is essentially a front for the Developer.) For that reason, the POA deserves both our time and our financial support in order to try to ensure that it is here and healthy if we need it.

In addition, since we have no local newspaper, the Talk of the Villages forum will be invaluable, if something bad happens vis-a-vis the Developer, as a means of communicating among ourselves and developing a concerted plan of action. For that reason, I hope that the TOV also continues to thrive.

My dear. Haven't you EVER heard that the only things that you absolutely can count on are death and taxes?

Not even the POA is gonna change any outcomes there.

I still say...the sky isn't falling.

but if you want to worry about it...go ahead.

[Taj44]

Advogado & StJames - you are both spot on in my opinion. Those are legitimate questions and issues to ponder. There will always be people who llike to bury their heads in the sand, but I believe in being as educated as possible about things that will affect me (and my lifestyle here in The Villages), and being able to be proactive when possible and if necessary. If people hadn't been honest with themselves and filed that $40 million lawsuit, we wouldn't be enjoying the fruits of that action today.

[graciegirl]

Advogado & StJames - you are both spot on in my opinion. Those are legitimate questions and issues to ponder. There will always be people who llike to bury their heads in the sand, but I believe in being as educated as possible about things that will affect me (and my lifestyle here in The Villages), and being able to be proactive when possible and if necessary. If people hadn't been honest with themselves and filed that $40 million lawsuit, we wouldn't be enjoying the fruits of that action today.

Gosh. I bet you mean me...sand head.