N.H. Bill to Make T.S.A. Pat-Downs and Naked Scans a Felony!!

[RichieLion]

New Hampshire State Representative George Lambert has co-sponsered a bill to make it a felony to view or touch someone's private parts without probable cause. The bill would classify the enhanced pat-down and the viewing of passengers with an x-ray as a sexual assault.

It a first step in the direction to stop this de-humanizing practice which amounts to the equivalent of a state sponsored sexual assault.

Kudos to these representatives for the state of New Hampshire.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=TSA+screening%3A+Bill+would+ make+touching%2C+viewing+sexual+assault&articleId=001317f2-a54b-4abb-b3fe-498b569ab8ac

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/02/dont-touch-my-junk-bill_n_830342.html

[Redtail]

New Hampshire State Representative George Lambert has co-sponsered a bill to make it a felony to view or touch someone's private parts without probable cause. The bill would classify the enhanced pat-down and the viewing of passengers with an x-ray as a sexual assault.

It a first step in the direction to stop this de-humanizing practice which amounts to the equivalent of a state sponsored sexual assault.

Kudos to these representatives for the state of New Hampshire.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=TSA+screening%3A+Bill+would+ make+touching%2C+viewing+sexual+assault&articleId=001317f2-a54b-4abb-b3fe-498b569ab8ac

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/02/dont-touch-my-junk-bill_n_830342.html
hogwash......airline safety must evolve with the times to keep us safe. if you have trouble with it then you should seek other means of tranportation!

[Xavier]

New Hampshire State Representative George Lambert has co-sponsered a bill to make it a felony to view or touch someone's private parts without probable cause. The bill would classify the enhanced pat-down and the viewing of passengers with an x-ray as a sexual assault.

It a first step in the direction to stop this de-humanizing practice which amounts to the equivalent of a state sponsored sexual assault.

Kudos to these representatives for the state of New Hampshire.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=TSA+screening%3A+Bill+would+ make+touching%2C+viewing+sexual+assault&articleId=001317f2-a54b-4abb-b3fe-498b569ab8ac

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/02/dont-touch-my-junk-bill_n_830342.html

Didn't you like the interaction you got the last time you brought this topic up? A little hung up on this I'd say.

My prescription: It's gorgeous outside, turn off your computer and get some fresh air. Enjoy the day that the good lord has given you.

X-hilarated

[RichieLion]

hogwash......airline safety must evolve with the times to keep us safe. if you have trouble with it then you should seek other means of tranportation!

I don't have to submit to de-humanizing actions in silence. If you're willing to give up your personal freedoms for a false sense of security, by all means spread 'em and put your hands up. I have no problem with you doing that. It's your body and if you have no problem with a stranger feeling and groping your most intimate parts, then by all means do so.

Other's, who cherish personal freedoms and abhor this grab at power over other person's bodies, that has as much to do with enlarging the number of public union employees, have a right to speak out and to demand that the government give good reason and probable cause to commit what in any other venue would be sexual assault.

It's a wretched system and there are better systems, such as in Israel, that do not treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent.

People have a right to speak out and to protest this issue. It's also our constitutional right to try and change the law to prevent this.

I actually don't fly anymore as I have medical implants and I am going to have to submit to personal indignities every time I fly. I am getting a little tired of the 18 hour drive to N.J. to see my family which I do just to avoid the humiliation at the hands of government agents.

[RichieLion]

Didn't you like the interaction you got the last time you brought this topic up? A little hung up on this I'd say.

My prescription: It's gorgeous outside, turn off your computer and get some fresh air. Enjoy the day that the good lord has given you.

X-hilarated

I talking about an issue. Why are you so condescending? Why do you need to confront me personally?

If the issue doesn't concern you, fine, don't respond to it.

The lawmakers in New Hampshire are making this news, not me. You need to stop obsessing on what I post. It's getting a bit dreary.

[Tbugs]

I flew out of Orlando International in December - no scans or pat downs!

I flew out of Portland, Maine in December - no scans or pat downs!

I flew out of Orlando International in January - no scans or pat downs!

I flew out of San Jose, Costa Rica in January - no scans or pat downs!

There was just the usual walking through the airport metal detector and having the carry-on bags x-rayed. Yes, we did have to remove shoes. No big deal.

I have talked with lots of Villagers who have travelled out of Orlando, New York, Washington and none had to have the scans or pat downs! This is entirely overblown as to how many travellers have this done.

Yet, I went to Disney a few days ago, and we had to have backpacks handsearched by Disney rent-a-cops.

How many Villagers actually have had full body pat downs at airports and how many have had the full body "naked" scanner at airports?

[skyguy79]

hogwash......airline safety must evolve with the times to keep us safe. if you have trouble with it then you should seek other means of tranportation!:agree:
In the State of New York and most if not all other states, you are assumed under law to be giving permission, when you get behind the wheel of an automobile to be tested for blood content when suspected of driving under the influence. If you refuse you will immediately have your drivers license suspended then later revoked for a minimum of six months. You rarely hear any outrage about this because it is an important safety issue.

Why then should there be any difference in standards from the highway to the airport when you purchase an airline ticket and enter into the security check point? They're both equally significant issues of safety! The only real difference is that with the check point at the airport, you do at least have the right to refuse, turn around and and walk away! You don't have that choice with a drivers sobriety test.

Now one may say "But, I have to fly!" Fooey that! Flying is a priviledge and not a right, just as it is with driving an automobile. No one HAS to fly; it's a choice. If it's because you're employer makes you do it, then it's an issue with your employer and not the thousands that depend on those safety measures every day. I haven't flown since the mid '70 and did love doing it, but for reasons other than safety I had to stop and I've yet to have missed it or have a breakdown or implode from lack of flying!

Our rights under the constitution are very important and it's equally important that they are not undermined by either circumstances or shameless acts of our government's leadership, but IMHO, our rights not to be incenerated or have our body parts scattered all over the ocean or countryside trumps the momentary discomfort of receiving a quick pat-down or incidental "junk" encounters at the airport, nor will it lead to undermining the foundations of our constitution.

[Challenger]

Israeli costs of airline secutity =approx $80.00 per passenger flown, USA =less than $6.00. Israeli passenger traffic approx 11,000,000 annually. San Francisco 10,000,000 annually. Added costs for Israeli model at San Francisco= 3/4 Billion$ times ???
Go online and check the facts, then we can have a rational discussion. Has the TSA made some mistakes, of course. Can procedures be improved, always.

[OpusX1]

While I agree that the current system is bad I would point out that most air travel is interstate/international and as such federal law will trump state law, unless you wll be flying within NH this law will pretty much be moot.

[Tbugs]

The link on Richie's post says that the bill introduced would have a government security agent (not just TSA) classified as a sexual offender if he/she touches or views genitalia or breasts. How about a jailer doing a strip search of a prisoner? How about an off-duty police officer (male or female) visiting a strip club, bachelor or bachelorette party? Too many variables here.

This bill will never make it out of committee. It is just some puffering by a state legislator who wants to be on a newspaper.

As I stated earlier, I do not know anyone personally who has gone through the enhanced pat down or "naked" scans. How many people do you know who have done this, Richie? No, I am not attacking you for this post. Inquiring minds just want to know.

[Challenger]

My wife gets the treatment on every flight and we fly often. She is 72 and has had a knee replacement. Sets off the alarm . She has always been treated with reasonable respect. I have never been patted down.

[Bogie Shooter]

Would the threat of water boarding on the offenders work??

[jackz]

"It's a wretched system and there are better systems, such as in Israel, that do not treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent."

Challenger has already mentioned the prohibitive costs of employing the system utilized in Israel considering the volume of passengers in the USA.

In addition in my view, partially obtained from managing a Federal Air Marshal Office for 5 years, the Israeli system basically views all passengers as possible threats and eliminates them via their extensive use of behavioral assesment tools and lengthy interviews. Are you aware that El Al Airlines require a check in of 4 hours ahead of their departures to be able to complete their screening processes? I don't believe the American flying public would appreciate a check in time of 4 hours prior to flight.

At the end of the day, flying is not a constitutional right but a privilege much the same as driving. I will jump through whatever hoops are necessary to keep me and my fellow passengers safe in flight.

[Challenger]

:agree:

[RichieLion]

The link on Richie's post says that the bill introduced would have a government security agent (not just TSA) classified as a sexual offender if he/she touches or views genitalia or breasts. How about a jailer doing a strip search of a prisoner? How about an off-duty police officer (male or female) visiting a strip club, bachelor or bachelorette party? Too many variables here.

This bill will never make it out of committee. It is just some puffering by a state legislator who wants to be on a newspaper.

As I stated earlier, I do not know anyone personally who has gone through the enhanced pat down or "naked" scans. How many people do you know who have done this, Richie? No, I am not attacking you for this post. Inquiring minds just want to know.


The key phrase you've ignored in the bill is "probable cause", and this makes your whole post moot.

[RichieLion]

"It's a wretched system and there are better systems, such as in Israel, that do not treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent."


Challenger has already mentioned the prohibitive costs of employing the system utilized in Israel considering the volume of passengers in the USA.

In addition in my view, partially obtained from managing a Federal Air Marshal Office for 5 years, the Israeli system basically views all passengers as possible threats and eliminates them via their extensive use of behavioral assesment tools and lengthy interviews. Are you aware that El Al Airlines require a check in of 4 hours ahead of their departures to be able to complete their screening processes? I don't believe the American flying public would appreciate a check in time of 4 hours prior to flight.

At the end of the day, flying is not a constitutional right but a privilege much the same as driving. I will jump through whatever hoops are necessary to keep me and my fellow passengers safe in flight.

First, I refuse to consider the cost of personal liberty.

As to your willingness to hoop jump, that's fine with me; jump through all the hoops laid before you. The facts available are that the terrorists have already devised methods to beat the TSA's scans and invasive gropings with surgically implanted and body cavity hidden weapons.

The next hoop may be body cavity searches in order to fly or you cannot be assured of a weapons free flight. I assume that hoop you will also jump through. Of course that will not find surgically implanted weapons. So believe you're safe when you give up your own rights to privacy, if you will, but it's a fallacy. The TSA claims it will never do cavity searches, so their assurances of weapons free flights are nonsense.

I'm just pointing out what legislators representing the state of New Hampshire are doing in the interest of rights to privacy in relation to control of your own body. I'm hoping the actions of these public servants will bring this issue to greater national attention and shine more light on the private national police force which is the TSA.

[jackz]

[QUOTE=RichieLion;335231]First, I refuse to consider the cost of personal liberty.

" The facts available are that the terrorists have already devised methods to beat the TSA's scans and invasive gropings with surgically implanted and body cavity hidden weapons. "

Just out of curiosity, How does one access a surgically implanted Weapon in Flight?

At this point, I'm done, let's agree to disagree and as you mentioned you are not flying anymore so enjoy The Villages.

[RichieLion]

[QUOTE=RichieLion;335231]First, I refuse to consider the cost of personal liberty.

" The facts available are that the terrorists have already devised methods to beat the TSA's scans and invasive gropings with surgically implanted and body cavity hidden weapons. "

Just out of curiosity, How does one access a surgically implanted Weapon in Flight?

At this point, I'm done, let's agree to disagree and as you mentioned you are not flying anymore so enjoy The Villages.

How can you be done when you asked a question?

Surgery has been devised which will implant explosive material in a women's breast implant. The chemical explosive would be detonated with a chemical reaction by a hypodermic needle. The hypodermic needle will be brought on board by the woman or an accomplice who would be, or pretending to be, diabetic. The woman would inject the chemical detonator into her breast and the deed is done.

The other method is explosive materiel hidden in a body cavity which is detonated with an electric device disguised as a common cell phone or iPod.

[Challenger]

ouch!

[Larry Wilson]

Why is this posted under discussion of The Villages, Florida??

[RichieLion]

Why is this posted under discussion of The Villages, Florida??

You're right!! I really meant for it to be in non-Villages Discussion. I guess we need Tony to fix my mistake. Sorry Tony!!

[Tbugs]

What is the probable cause mentioned having to do with an off-duty government security agent (police officer) going to a topless bar with friends for a bachelor or bachelorette party? Would they be charged as a sexual offender?

As I stated before, Richie, this bill will never make it out of committee. It is just puffery to get attention.

You did not answer if you personally know people who have been subjected to this treatment.

It was a great day for golf, wasn't it?

[RichieLion]

What is the probable cause mentioned having to do with an off-duty government security agent (police officer) going to a topless bar with friends for a bachelor or bachelorette party? Would they be charged as a sexual offender?

As I stated before, Richie, this bill will never make it out of committee. It is just puffery to get attention.

You did not answer if you personally know people who have been subjected to this treatment.

It was a great day for golf, wasn't it?

Come on, really? A bachelor party, a topless bar? A place, despicable or not, where a woman is paid for her services? Come on, really?

Probable cause to permit a gov't official to search someone is something I'm sure you understand, so I won't insult you by defining it.

You may be right about the outcome of this bill, but I'm just glad for the attempt. If only the liberal media would report on it, so the uniformed populace who only listen to the liberal media would be informed on this issue. Maybe it'll become a story that cannot be ignored; we'll see.

[skyguy79]

I actually don't fly anymore as I have medical implants and I am going to have to submit to personal indignities every time I fly. I am getting a little tired of the 18 hour drive to N.J. to see my family which I do just to avoid the humiliation at the hands of government agents.Richie, if you're getting tired of the 18 hour drive to N.J., why do you continue doing it when it's not necessary? You don't need to do the drive or fly as you have a third choice... Amtrak's Auto Train!

If you had reservations and left TV this morning you would only have to take a relatively short drive to Sanford FL where they would board your vehicle onto one of their car carriers and you board either into a sleeping room or electively a coach seat. This afternoon you would have been on your way north and arrive tomorrow morning in Lorton VA, just south of the Washington Beltway.

From Lorton you would then drive to the destination of your relatives in NJ and be enjoying their company later that evening. You would have cut off about 800+ miles of driving and not have undergone the 18 hour drive.

If you decide to try going that route sometime in the future you should note that they have what's called a bucket system of determining rates. This means that the earler you get your reservations in, the better the rates can be. You can make reservations up to 11 months in advance.

We'll actually be doing the Auto Train thing for the fourth time in less than 3 weeks, making our way back to our primary home in Upstate NY.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8b/AmtrakLogo.png/50px-AmtrakLogo.png http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Route_C&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241245666320

[diskman]

New Hampshire State Representative George Lambert has co-sponsered a bill to make it a felony to view or touch someone's private parts without probable cause. The bill would classify the enhanced pat-down and the viewing of passengers with an x-ray as a sexual assault.

It a first step in the direction to stop this de-humanizing practice which amounts to the equivalent of a state sponsored sexual assault.

Kudos to these representatives for the state of New Hampshire.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=TSA+screening%3A+Bill+would+ make+touching%2C+viewing+sexual+assault&articleId=001317f2-a54b-4abb-b3fe-498b569ab8ac

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/02/dont-touch-my-junk-bill_n_830342.html

I guess they will close the airport and sell it to developers hahaha dumbest story I have read here ever:spoken::22yikes:

[Xavier]

I talking about an issue. Why are you so condescending? Why do you need to confront me personally?

If the issue doesn't concern you, fine, don't respond to it.

The lawmakers in New Hampshire are making this news, not me. You need to stop obsessing on what I post. It's getting a bit dreary.

I'm just saying that if you keep bringing up the same topic in the general discussion pages of TOTV and then the vast majority knock the snot out of your viewpoints and concerns, why would you continue to keep doing the same thing? Do you really, really think that you are going to change anything? Run for office and make a change happen from within the system instead of just talking about it and letting people poke holes in your argument. Take a stand, don't just talk a stand.

X-asperated

[RichieLion]

I'm just saying that if you keep bringing up the same topic in the general discussion pages of TOTV and then the vast majority knock the snot out of your viewpoints and concerns, why would you continue to keep doing the same thing? Do you really, really think that you are going to change anything? Run for office and make a change happen from within the system instead of just talking about it and letting people poke holes in your argument. Take a stand, don't just talk a stand.

X-asperated

You got to stop obsessing about me. It's getting creepy.

[RichieLion]

Richie, if you're getting tired of the 18 hour drive to N.J., why do you continue doing it when it's not necessary? You don't need to do the drive or fly as you have a third choice... Amtrak's Auto Train!

If you had reservations and left TV this morning you would only have to take a relatively short drive to Sanford FL where they would board your vehicle onto one of their car carriers and you board either into a sleeping room or electively a coach seat. This afternoon you would have been on your way north and arrive tomorrow morning in Lorton VA, just south of the Washington Beltway.

From Lorton you would then drive to the destination of your relatives in NJ and be enjoying their company later that evening. You would have cut off about 800+ miles of driving and not have undergone the 18 hour drive.

If you decide to try going that route sometime in the future you should note that they have what's called a bucket system of determining rates. This means that the earler you get your reservations in, the better the rates can be. You can make reservations up to 11 months in advance.

We'll actually be doing the Auto Train thing for the fourth time in less than 3 weeks, making our way back to our primary home in Upstate NY.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8b/AmtrakLogo.png/50px-AmtrakLogo.png http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Route_C&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241245666320


Thanks Skyguy. I'll check it again the next time I need to go up north. It was a bit expensive the last time I checked, but with the price of fuel, I'll reevaluate it.

[katezbox]

OK - aside from JoJo - I am most likely the "travelingist" poster on TOTV. I fly regularly from Orlando to Atlanta, DC, Charlotte, Philly, Toronto, Lauderdale and infrequently to a lot more.

I have been patted down and scanned. The only time the pat down was ever invasive was before TSA - when the rentacops were doing it. That pat down was by a man, who also seemed to take inordinate pleasure in pawing through my underwear in my luggage.

The scanner looks a bit like the "Beam me up Scotty" device from Star Trek. And no, there are no naughty photos of my private parts on display. The TSA folks (and their Canadian counterparts) are completely professional.

My husband has been patted down every time he flies because of his artificial hip. He much prefers the scanner. It is much quicker.

What I really don't understand here, is why this has suddenly become an issue. Why now are they such an invasion of privacy when a few years back they were considered paramount to our safety?

[K9-Lovers]

:icon_bored:

[graciegirl]

Assuredly Kate knows of which she speaks.

So do all the rest who have traveled by air recently.

There really isn't a problem that I can perceive.

I would do anything to make air travel safer. I have no problem with whatever it takes to keep people from getting on airplanes carrying dangerous items.

Sometimes people who are not related to you have to touch your body; Doctors, nurses, technicians,hair dressers, people who fit prostheses, people in airports. You would know if someone is feeling you up. Not everyone is sex crazed. Although my overweight, older, wrinkled body is probably a huge temptation.

[RichieLion]

Assuredly Kate knows of which she speaks.

So do all the rest who have traveled by air recently.

There really isn't a problem that I can perceive.

I would do anything to make air travel safer. I have no problem with whatever it takes to keep people from getting on airplanes carrying dangerous items.

Sometimes people who are not related to you have to touch your body; Doctors, nurses, technicians,hair dressers, people who fit prostheses, people in airports. You would know if someone is feeling you up. Not everyone is sex crazed. Although my overweight, older, wrinkled body is probably a huge temptation.

OK; I guess all the pro TSA'ers are completely ignoring the evidence that it's all a sham anyway and it's not making you safer, as you can find out if you would do any investigating whatsoever.

I would prefer real safety protocols instead of all the feel good theatre that the pro TSA'ers have swallowed whole.

In the meantime we'll see what, if anything, comes out of the Bill before the New Hampshire Assembly that, you may be surprised, was not written by me, but by elected lawmakers by the voters of New Hampshire.

Really, all I did was report the story.

[kandj]

OK; I guess all the pro TSA'ers are completely ignoring the evidence that it's all a sham anyway and it's not making you safer, as you can find out if you would do any investigating whatsoever.

I would prefer real safety protocols instead of all the feel good theatre that the pro TSA'ers have swallowed whole.

In the meantime we'll see what, if anything, comes out of the Bill before the New Hampshire Assembly that, you may be surprised, was not written by me, but by elected lawmakers by the voters of New Hampshire.

Really, all I did was report the story.

:agree: There needs to be some REAL safety protocals implemented. The removal and scanning of shoes was a "knee-jerk" answer to the shoe bomber. Do I feel safer having to have my crocs sent through a scanner while I limp through the line with no support to my arches? NO!

My biggest concern with these invasive scans/pat downs is that there are plans to extend these measures, in the near future, to rail service. At that point, are all the folks that say "oh, but flying is a choice...blah, blah, blah..." going to say once again that using the rail system is a choice? Where does the invasion into our rights to be "innocent until proven guilty" end?

[graciegirl]

:agree: There needs to be some REAL safety protocals implemented. The removal and scanning of shoes was a "knee-jerk" answer to the shoe bomber. Do I feel safer having to have my crocs sent through a scanner while I limp through the line with no support to my arches? NO!

My biggest concern with these invasive scans/pat downs is that there are plans to extend these measures, in the near future, to rail service. At that point, are all the folks that say "oh, but flying is a choice...blah, blah, blah..." going to say once again that using the rail system is a choice? Where does the invasion into our rights to be "innocent until proven guilty" end?

Probably when there are no more terrorists trying to blow up trains and planes.

[Tbugs]

From what I have read on these posts, is that no one personally has had "invasive" pat downs with groping of private areas - as described on Fox News (I had to put that in for Richie). A couple have had the full body scans and have no problem with it. This seems to be a total non-issue here.

Once again, just a politician puffering to make a point and contributing to the greenhouse gas problem when they open their mouth.

[skyguy79]

My biggest concern with these invasive scans/pat downs is that there are plans to extend these measures, in the near future, to rail service. At that point, are all the folks that say "oh, but flying is a choice...blah, blah, blah..." going to say once again that using the rail system is a choice?Is rail system a choice? Now let me think about this a minute.....http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/images/smilies/JC-thinking.gif....YES, YES, MOST DEFINITELY YES!

Flying is a choice, rail is a choice, even driving is a choice. All these modes of travel are definitely a choice!!! I don't know about you, but I've yet to see anyone being forced at gun point or by any other means to use those first two modes of transportation! The only real non-choice that is apparant here is our RIGHT to remain DEAD once killed by a terrorist getting by inadequate security, blah, blah, blah...!

Heaven knows that there's plenty of room for security proceedures to be improved in this country, but until our current government leaders wakes up and improves those proceedures, I'll opt to put my junk out there at non-violent risk instead of my life at REAL risk! And if those leaders don't wake up... then let's replace them with leaders who will!

[Xavier]

Is rail system a choice? Now let me think about this a minute.....http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/images/smilies/JC-thinking.gif....YES, YES, MOST DEFINITELY YES!

Flying is a choice, rail is a choice, even driving is a choice. All these modes of travel are definitely a choice!!! I don't know about you, but I've yet to see anyone being forced at gun point or by any other means to use those first two modes of transportation! The only real non-choice that is apparant here is our RIGHT to remain DEAD once killed by a terrorist getting by inadequate security, blah, blah, blah...!

Heaven knows that there's plenty of room for security proceedures to be improved in this country, but until our current government leaders wakes up and improves those proceedures, I'll opt to put my junk out there at non-violent risk instead of my life at REAL risk! And if those leaders don't wake up... then let's replace them with leaders who will!

:bowdown::agree::a040:

X-cellent!

[RichieLion]

I'll only leave you with my TOTV signature which one of the most insightful of our founding fathers articulated in his usual brilliant way. He had a true American spirit.

[Challenger]

Mr Franklins words are still wise. Context is important. Living in the Villages we have agreed to give up discharging firearms in our yard, speeding on public roads, driving an auto without insurance and much much more. We need to vigorously test every relinqueshment of rights against it effectiveness in protecting our physical existence. Obviously we will differ in opinion on many issues. Democracy is messy but should produce the greatest good for the largest number of persons without undue disadvantage to the minority. As for the TSA issues, we the public do not know many of the circumstances that have caused implication of what seem to be silly procedures. So, the debate goes on..:rant-rave:

[katezbox]

Richie - I love your quote.... But many also used this in reference to the Patriot Act.

I agree we need to stay ahead of the bad guys... and that small amounts of liquid or shoes may be knee jerk reactions.... But wouldn't we all fee stupid if another shoe bomber was allowed to board wearing shoes with explosives because we didn't check? Well, not all of us, of course.... as some would feel nothing at all - they would be those that died. Flying as often as I do, I'm thankful that we are using technology to keep the air safe.

And just, in terms of full disclosure, no products or services that I sell are used in any airport scanning devices.

[RichieLion]

Now Texas joins the fight with a Bill co-sponsered by Rep. David Simpson with a bipartisan group of 18 Texas lawmakers. The Bill would make it a civil penalty for anyone installing or operating whole body imaging machines in airports. The penalty could be $1000 a day.

The bill is supported by the Travis County Republican Party, the Travis County Libertarian Party and, surprisingly to me, the liberal ACLU chapter in Texas. Also on board is the Texans for Accountable Government which campaigned for a resolution against the scanners in the city of Austin

If it becomes law Texas joins New Hampshire and N.J. with bills challenging these measures.

http://www.lonestarreport.org/Blog/tabid/65/EntryId/1022/Simpson-files-anti-body-scanner-bill.aspx

[katezbox]

and, surprisingly to me, the liberal ACLU chapter in Texas.

Not surprising to me at all... the ACLU has opposed these measures from day 1. The administrations (both Dem and Rep) have said that we need to up our security game - even if some freedoms are lost.

[Tbugs]

Political Puffery

[Russ_Boston]

Political Puffery


Agree - wake me up when they become law. Until then - "assume the position":)

[RichieLion]

Agree - wake me up when they become law. Until then - "assume the position":)

Not everyone is as willing to give up their God given and Constitutionally protected freedoms in hopes of an elusive sense of security without at least a fight.

[Xavier]

Not everyone is as willing to give up their God given and Constitutionally protected freedoms in hopes of an elusive sense of security without at least a fight.

God given? Really? Give me a link for that one.

You stand guard, we'll be right behind you. You may not see us, but we're there. Sigh... :sigh:

X-cruciatingly tedious

[RichieLion]

God given? Really? Give me a link for that one.

You stand guard, we'll be right behind you. You may not see us, but we're there. Sigh... :sigh:

X-cruciatingly tedious

You might not believe in a God given right to privacy of your own body, and you might be willing to have your body manhandled at the whim of the government. There are plenty of freedom loving and free thinking Americans who would heartily disagree with you.

[Russ_Boston]

Not everyone is as willing to give up their God given and Constitutionally protected freedoms in hopes of an elusive sense of security without at least a fight.


Just feel that my time can be use more wisely. Honestly, it doesn't even crack my top 10 on things I'm concerned about.

[RichieLion]

Just feel that my time can be use more wisely. Honestly, it doesn't even crack my top 10 on things I'm concerned about.

You keep reading and commenting though Russ. I'm just saying.

It's interesting when people take on the powers that be. We're the new Anti-Establishment. We're fighting Big Brother (actually, Big Sis).

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves."
~ Henry David Thoreau

[Tbugs]

Okay, Richie. Drink your warm milk now.

[RichieLion]

Okay, Richie. Drink your warm milk now.

"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." Saul Alinsky

You must have read these words comrade.

[Russ_Boston]

You keep reading and commenting though Russ. I'm just saying.

It's interesting when people take on the powers that be. We're the new Anti-Establishment. We're fighting Big Brother (actually, Big Sis).

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves."
~ Henry David Thoreau

I'm interested but just not really concerned one way or the other. But do keep us up to date so I know how much time it will take at the security line.

[katezbox]

Richie,

Were you as opposed to having our library borrowing habits looked into by the government?

I am continually astounded (why I don't know) by the hypocrisy of our politicians... Ho hum...

[RichieLion]

Richie,

Were you as opposed to having our library borrowing habits looked into by the government?

I am continually astounded (why I don't know) by the hypocrisy of our politicians... Ho hum...

Was that ever done? Is Obama's team with the same and even greater powers doing it now? I've seen and find no stories to suggest it.

I concerned about the rights to my own body and am in deviance of attempts at search and seizure with no probable cause.

As a woman, I would think you'd be concerned about these rights also.

[katezbox]

Was that ever done? Is Obama's team with the same and even greater powers doing it now? I've seen and find no stories to suggest it.

I concerned about the rights to my own body and am in deviance of attempts at search and seizure with no probable cause.

As a woman, I would think you'd be concerned about these rights also.

Richie,

Go re-read the Patriot Act.

And as a woman traveler, if you read my prior post, the ONLY time I have even had an inappropriate pat down was before the TSA came into being. The rentacop came very close to putting his wand (no I don't mean this a double entendre, really!) into a very private place.

Since TSA began (I am guessing about 9 years ago), I have probably flown 600+ times domestically. No inappropriate pat downs, none. They have not always been friendly and smiling; they have not always been efficient. But they have never been inappropriate.

By the way, this equipment was first deployed in the US in 2007 - yep - 2007. This is why I agree with several of the previous posters that all of this uproar is politically motivated.

[K9-Lovers]

I'm interested but just not really concerned one way or the other. But do keep us up to date so I know how much time it will take at the security line.

Agree. :icon_bored:

[skyguy79]

I concerned about the rights to my own body and am in deviance of attempts at search and seizure with no probable cause.OMG, THEIR GONNA SEIZE OUR JUNK NOW? http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/wonder/m1817.gif

[Tbugs]

Just kind of curious here - Can anyone enlighten me as to why what used to be called "The Family Jewels" is now referred to as "Junk"?

[skyguy79]

Just kind of curious here - Can anyone enlighten me as to why what used to be called "The Family Jewels" is now referred to as "Junk"?I was actually going to use both terms Jewels and Junk! Anyway, this video shows what started the Junk term being used:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJC-FuOSZ4

[eweissenbach]

You might not believe in a God given right to privacy of your own body, and you might be willing to have your body manhandled at the whim of the government. There are plenty of freedom loving and free thinking Americans who would heartily disagree with you.

Well Richie, when the TSA insists on scanning you and you invoke your God given right to privacy of your own body, I hope to be in line to watch that show. In case I am not let me know how that worked for you!

[Xavier]

Well Richie, when the TSA insists on scanning you and you invoke your God given right to privacy of your own body, I hope to be in line to watch that show. In case I am not let me know how that worked for you!

:police: :1rotfl:

X-tra funny!

[quill]

For those of you that think the current TSA situation is acceptable, I ask what will it take to be unacceptable? The current is nothing but theater and bad theater at that. Do you really believe that TSA is stopping anything? The situation is they are just giving you a warm fussy while the rest of the airport security is a big sieve.

Take for example that the TSA employees, because they demanded and got metal police looking badges, do not go through the security that we go through. They just walk right through security. Random checks. A recent account was of a TSA person trying to carry a gun to work in a back pack.
That flight line crews, maintenance and aircraft cleaners go in through the back door at most airport through gates with swipe cards and no security.
That most airports have off airport catering, meaning that a truck delivers the aircraft food service carts to the aircraft after being filled off airport. No body checks the carts when they arrive.
That cargo in the aircraft hold is not checked, passenger bags maybe but not cargo.
That TSA puts pilots through the same crap that we go through, including taking their liquids and making them get pat downs. How much sense does that make? If a pilot wants to crash an aircraft do they need to bring anything with them? A pilot was arrested and fired after he had had enough of TSA abuse. After he was requested to take off shoes and belt he commented that he could get naked and still crash an aircraft.
So if you are willing to put up with this, it is sad. This is like a experiment by the government to see how far they can push. If you have no problem giving up your rights and freedoms then I suggest you check out a third world dictatorial country. Plenty of security there, no freedom. And please do not tell me I should just drive. If TSA really wants to make us secure then fix all the holes, do not just mess with me and try make me believe I am safe. When we as US citizens incrementally give up our rights we will find ourselves without any rights.

[skyguy79]

I can't help but wonder if there were two types of flights, A) where pat-downs were required and B) where no pat-downs were required, how many would chose A over B and visa-verse? Maybe we aught to have a poll and see what TV'ers would choose!
http://yoursmiles.org/csmile/question/c0314.gif

[graciegirl]

For those of you that think the current TSA situation is acceptable, I ask what will it take to be unacceptable? The current is nothing but theater and bad theater at that. Do you really believe that TSA is stopping anything? The situation is they are just giving you a warm fussy while the rest of the airport security is a big sieve.

Take for example that the TSA employees, because they demanded and got metal police looking badges, do not go through the security that we go through. They just walk right through security. Random checks. A recent account was of a TSA person trying to carry a gun to work in a back pack.
That flight line crews, maintenance and aircraft cleaners go in through the back door at most airport through gates with swipe cards and no security.
That most airports have off airport catering, meaning that a truck delivers the aircraft food service carts to the aircraft after being filled off airport. No body checks the carts when they arrive.
That cargo in the aircraft hold is not checked, passenger bags maybe but not cargo.
That TSA puts pilots through the same crap that we go through, including taking their liquids and making them get pat downs. How much sense does that make? If a pilot wants to crash an aircraft do they need to bring anything with them? A pilot was arrested and fired after he had had enough of TSA abuse. After he was requested to take off shoes and belt he commented that he could get naked and still crash an aircraft.
So if you are willing to put up with this, it is sad. This is like a experiment by the government to see how far they can push. If you have no problem giving up your rights and freedoms then I suggest you check out a third world dictatorial country. Plenty of security there, no freedom. And please do not tell me I should just drive. If TSA really wants to make us secure then fix all the holes, do not just mess with me and try make me believe I am safe. When we as US citizens incrementally give up our rights we will find ourselves without any rights.

Willing to "put up with" security measures that will not only protect me, but everyone in my family and my friends and people I don't know from death by a terrorist act???

This inordinate fear of having your body touched is way more than I can understand.

Do you really believe that every single person employed in security are sexual perverts? I find your fears outside the perimeter of what I consider ordinary fear. The ONLY reason I will fly is because of these measures. Do I think that every single person is above reproach who is employed by the TSA? No, but I imagine that most of them are decent people...the way that most people are decent people.

[K9-Lovers]

If Quill has accurately described the security situation at our airports, then it seems to me that we should be working towards fixing the gaps and making those security standards higher -- instead of trying to lower the security standards for passengers.

A lot of energy is being wasted creating controversy over the wrong issues.

[quill]

It has nothing to do with being touched and everything about the process and what the government is doing. Gracie you believe that for the most part that TSA agent are good people and I agree, but I also think that 99.9999 percent of all people traveling on aircraft are good people. But we are all treated as guilty until we are scanned and patted down. If only one in a hundred TSA are bad why are you not concerned that they are not checked like we are to catch that one? My real beef is with the machines. I have been patted for years but not groped. Metal detectors are one thing but when the government starts X-raying me that is when I draw the line. We are told it is safe. How many times in everyone's memory has the government said something is ok only later to say sorry we were wrong. Even if it is safe, that assumes that the machine is set correctly, maintained and used correctly. You do not have X-ray tech running these like in hospitals. I have been told to minimize the amount of radiation I get. Difficult to do with these new machines. As for improving other areas I agree, but doubt it will come to pass. There is big money in these new machines and people are building empires off of security, but I never feel any safer when I go through security, just put upon.
Another note 40 years ago in the work I was in I got briefings on terrorism. The summation of which was that we should be aware and do our best to avoid being a victim, but if the terrorist really wanted to get us they would. And that when ever we change our lives because of something they have done then the terrorist have won by default. This issue with TSA is a prime example of them winning in my opinion.

[RichieLion]

It has nothing to do with being touched and everything about the process and what the government is doing. Gracie you believe that for the most part that TSA agent are good people and I agree, but I also think that 99.9999 percent of all people traveling on aircraft are good people. But we are all treated as guilty until we are scanned and patted down. If only one in a hundred TSA are bad why are you not concerned that they are not checked like we are to catch that one? My real beef is with the machines. I have been patted for years but not groped. Metal detectors are one thing but when the government starts X-raying me that is when I draw the line. We are told it is safe. How many times in everyone's memory has the government said something is ok only later to say sorry we were wrong. Even if it is safe, that assumes that the machine is set correctly, maintained and used correctly. You do not have X-ray tech running these like in hospitals. I have been told to minimize the amount of radiation I get. Difficult to do with these new machines. As for improving other areas I agree, but doubt it will come to pass. There is big money in these new machines and people are building empires off of security, but I never feel any safer when I go through security, just put upon.
Another note 40 years ago in the work I was in I got briefings on terrorism. The summation of which was that we should be aware and do our best to avoid being a victim, but if the terrorist really wanted to get us they would. And that when ever we change our lives because of something they have done then the terrorist have won by default. This issue with TSA is a prime example of them winning in my opinion.

Almost nobody on this forum cares or even reads or investigates the truth behind TSA procedures. You can show them and even link proof of the fallacy of believing that the theatre they are witnessing at the airports is somehow keeping them safe.

They will come back with opinions that basically say "As long as it keeps me safe, I have no problem with the government doing whatever they want to my body or to my children's body"; like you never linked the story that should encourage them to, at least, rethink the conviction they have.

I still can't believe the passion with which people would give up the sanctity to their own bodies, and worse, their children's bodies to a government agent who has no excuse or cause to molest them.

Benjamin Franklin's warning to his fellow Americans was never more relevant than now, but I will still be the one mostly ridiculed by others for trying to maintain my basic freedoms. I really cannot believe it.

[graciegirl]

Almost nobody on this forum cares or even reads or investigates the truth behind TSA procedures. You can show them and even link proof of the fallacy of believing that the theatre they are witnessing at the airports is somehow keeping them safe.

They will come back with opinions that basically say "As long as it keeps me safe, I have no problem with the government doing whatever they want to my body or to my children's body"; like you never linked the story that should encourage them to, at least, rethink the conviction they have.

I still can't believe the passion with which people would give up the sanctity to their own bodies, and worse, their children's bodies to a government agent who has no excuse or cause to molest them.

Benjamin Franklin's warning to his fellow Americans was never more relevant than now, but I will still be the one mostly ridiculed by others for trying to maintain my basic freedoms. I really cannot believe it.

I think.....

This sanctity thing (not forgetting that the Church says that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit) is when someone is trying to have sex with you and you don't want them to.

Kate has to fly for her work. Kate is not only intelligent and hard working but she is fair in her assessments. I know her, I have been in her home. She is a reasonable person. She has that wonderful and very rare commodity called common sense.

People who are in and out of airports all of the time have more familiarity with the processes than people who haven't flown ever or never or rarely.

I agree with frequent scans being dangerous.

Benjamin Franklin was one heck of a sage and a wonderful person but he didn't fly.

If we can deter one terrorist from blowing up one person than all of the stuff is working at least to the family of the person who is not dead.

I am afraid of a lot of things. Some more than others. I am courageous about some things, some more than others. I am just like most people. I choose what I want to do and I don't embrace huge ideas that have some faults in them. I pick and choose my philosophies. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong but the world changes. We have to change with the world.

Not even the smartest people or the best people or the most dedicated people or the bravest people can keep bad things from happening. But they can reasonably try. It is just that the conception of bad is different each day....even though the morality of good people is still against evil.

Richie Lion, I think you want to protect me and others with your sincere idea on this and I want to protect me and others with mine.

Only God knows who is rightest.

[Xavier]

I think.....

This sanctity thing (not forgetting that the Church says that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit) is when someone is trying to have sex with you and you don't want them to.

Kate has to fly for her work. Kate is not only intelligent and hard working but she is fair in her assessments. I know her, I have been in her home. She is a reasonable person. She has that wonderful and very rare commodity called common sense.

People who are in and out of airports all of the time have more familiarity with the processes than people who haven't flown ever or never or rarely.

I agree with frequent scans being dangerous.

Benjamin Franklin was one heck of a sage and a wonderful person but he didn't fly.

If we can deter one terrorist from blowing up one person than all of the stuff is working at least to the family of the person who is not dead.

I am afraid of a lot of things. Some more than others. I am courageous about some things, some more than others. I am just like most people. I choose what I want to do and I don't embrace huge ideas that have some faults in them. I pick and choose my philosophies. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong but the world changes. We have to change with the world.

Not even the smartest people or the best people or the most dedicated people or the bravest people can keep bad things from happening. But they can reasonably try. It is just that the conception of bad is different each day....even though the morality of good people is still against evil.

Richie Lion, I think you want to protect me and others with your sincere idea on this and I want to protect me and others with mine.

Only God knows who is rightest.

...again a voice of common sense and practicality. No HIGH horse for her. Ya gotta love this woman.

Xavier

[katezbox]

...again a voice of common sense and practicality. No HIGH horse for her. Ya gotta love this woman.

Xavier

Yes we do!

I can't tell you if any airline TSA or service employees get in through the "back door." I DO know - having seen it happen - that immediately after 9/11 that they did. I sent a letter to the NSA (no Homeland Security then) about the risks this represented. Many other travelers around that time (approx 9/21/2001) also sent letters.... After about 6 months, I have never seen the BudLight guy entering from anywhere but through security... same goes for employees and crew. BTW, employees, TSA and crew do get to "go to the head of the line", but their stuff does get scanned, as do they.

Richie, I do believe you are passionate about this. But, the bad guys are looking for ways to get through each and every day. The scans are highly effective at spotting weapons being carried.

Both you and Quill have sidestepped the "political" side of this issue: namely, that this was never questioned when these scanners were initiated (with a Republican in the White House). Oh, also, I think that TSA being part of a "government agency" (oops - GWB started that one too), is also a reason that states are initiating these measures. And, just to get it out there - no. I am not a Democrat or a Liberal - just a moderate who has already flown four times this month and would like dialogue, not words of mass destruction.

[quill]

We all make decisions on a daily basis about what we will and will not do. Some of those are based on fear. I have made the decision to get on an aircraft hundreds of times in my life. I have always thought the threat to me was minimum. In fact I will as far as to say that if the airport security were to be rolled back to pre 911 that you would still be safer on an aircraft statistically than you are in a car driving to the airport. 911 was horrible and I am not trying to downplay it in any way, it was however only one day of 3 events. A paradigm shift occurred that day with the flying public on aircraft and is to long winded to go on about here, but I believe things have changed to a degree that an aircraft will not be taken again as it was on 911, because passengers will rise up and prevent the aircraft from being taken. According to google there have been approx 100 worldwide hijackings since the 1950s out of all the millions upon millions of flights that have occurred. So how high is the threat? Like I said I think that riding in a car is worse. So if a car is more dangerous and drunk drivers are the threat on the road, then we should all agree that every vehicle will have a breathalyzer installed that one has to breath into prior to engine start. If everyone agrees this is acceptable then what is the next step in taking away our rights. Because what we are saying with the breathalyzer is that you are guilty until you prove you are innocent and are allowed to drive. If you do not believe that the breathalyzer is a good idea, because it is an invasion of privacy and against the basic law of the land, then why is what the TSA is doing acceptable. We are having to prove we are not guilty by being searched. The 4th Amendment protects us against these types of searches. Please do not start about what actions in our daily lives are rights vs privileges etc. To say I should not fly because the government wants to perpetuate an illusion is wrong. Where do we as a populace draw the line?

[Tbugs]

Your rights are NOT being infinged upon by airport screeners and scanners. It is a safety issue and nothing more.

Are your 2nd Amendment rights being infringed upon when you cannot step out on the golf course and shoot at the white ibis? No, this is a safety issue, too.

Richie is just kind of obsessed about body scanners and screeners - yet he admits he does not fly nor does he know anyone who personally has been "violated" by a screener.

Richie, I think we should sit down and get to know each other over a beer someday.

Quill just seems to be trying to make it a "my rights are beng taken away" issue.

Hey, guys, it is a safety issue. If you do not want to fly and you think your children are being sexually molested by screeners, drive or stay home. Rules are rules.

Your rights are NOT being denied - you just have to obey the rules - rules that were made for your well-being.

Yes, your Ben Franklin quotes are cute but remember, he lived in a time when there were no AK-47's, no semi-automatic pistols with high capacity magazines, no cars that could go 120 mph, and Franklin thought the Bald Eagle was a cowardly bird and that the turkey should be the national symbol of America.

[quill]

Tbugs I do not believe you read any of my posts very closely. If you really believe it is just as simple as a safety issue then I ask why are you not more concerned about all the security holes in an airport access. The only people really affected by this theater are the passengers and aircrew. Somebody said earlier that they and others had fixed the holes after 911 by writing letters, well then why within the last year was a pilot that filmed the card swipe gate I was talking about and other areas of access, being threaten by TSA for disclosing the info. He was just showing what most people do not know or care to understand. And if everyone is so concerned about security what sense does it make to put pilot through this theater. It just makes the lines longer at security. As I said they do not need to have anything to do damage. I keep asking what the line is that everyone is willing to draw over which they will not put up with this anymore? Should we start x-raying everyone that goes to school, the mall, church, etc. etc. etc.? I think Richie is correct most of you do not want to really consider this in the bigger context that it should be seen in. If I really thought I was safer because of this theater I would be willing to go along.

[Xavier]

Tbugs I do not believe you read any of my posts very closely. If you really believe it is just as simple as a safety issue then I ask why are you not more concerned about all the security holes in an airport access. The only people really affected by this theater are the passengers and aircrew. Somebody said earlier that they and others had fixed the holes after 911 by writing letters, well then why within the last year was a pilot that filmed the card swipe gate I was talking about and other areas of access, being threaten by TSA for disclosing the info. He was just showing what most people do not know or care to understand. And if everyone is so concerned about security what sense does it make to put pilot through this theater. It just makes the lines longer at security. As I said they do not need to have anything to do damage. I keep asking what the line is that everyone is willing to draw over which they will not put up with this anymore? Should we start x-raying everyone that goes to school, the mall, church, etc. etc. etc.? I think Richie is correct most of you do not want to really consider this in the bigger context that it should be seen in. If I really thought I was safer because of this theater I would be willing to go along.

You are obviously very concerned about this and maybe we all should be. I guess that is something for all of us to contemplate. Since I personally haven't jumped on that bandwagon yet, what is it that YOU and Richie are going to do about it besides educate the rest of us and not fly?

Xavier

[Tbugs]

Actually, Quill, there are metal detectors in court houses and, yes, even schools. Students do bring handguns and knives to school.

You state that if this "theater" would actually make it safer to fly, you would go along with it. Well, if you go to the airport and refuse the screeners and/or scanners, you will not fly. You have no choice except to go along with it.

As I said in my previous posts, no one in this forum has personally been subjected to the "groping of private areas" nor has been bothered with the scanning. This is a non-issue.

The bill in New Hampshire will never make it to a vote and is just political puffery.

Let's move on to a new topic.

[waterman1952]

Since this is my first post I hope I don't offend anyone but I think it's called "junk" because we are old and it doesn't work so well anymore, sort of like an old Dodge K-car!

[Don H]

Quill: I agree with you. Also...the tsa dog and pony show adds one more factor to the equation. It provides an even better target for terrorists by bunching hundreds of people at a time into constricted areas at airport checkpoints. For me, that is the scariest part of the trip. And..the tsa suffers from mission creep. They are now taking on some boarding checkpoints on trains.

[Chi-Town]

You got to stop obsessing about me. It's getting creepy.
Creepy is fixating on groping and scanning. Need to spend more time on the uninformed populace and that infernal liberal media.

[RichieLion]

Tbugs I do not believe you read any of my posts very closely. If you really believe it is just as simple as a safety issue then I ask why are you not more concerned about all the security holes in an airport access. The only people really affected by this theater are the passengers and aircrew. Somebody said earlier that they and others had fixed the holes after 911 by writing letters, well then why within the last year was a pilot that filmed the card swipe gate I was talking about and other areas of access, being threaten by TSA for disclosing the info. He was just showing what most people do not know or care to understand. And if everyone is so concerned about security what sense does it make to put pilot through this theater. It just makes the lines longer at security. As I said they do not need to have anything to do damage. I keep asking what the line is that everyone is willing to draw over which they will not put up with this anymore? Should we start x-raying everyone that goes to school, the mall, church, etc. etc. etc.? I think Richie is correct most of you do not want to really consider this in the bigger context that it should be seen in. If I really thought I was safer because of this theater I would be willing to go along.

Believe me Quill, it doesn't seem too many care. They might be a little concerned by my pointing out that their views validating the non-existence of personal privacy extends to their children who are also subject to being virtually strip searched and/or molested at the airport, because they haven't addressed it, but that's about it.

Never the less. We have champions of American Freedom in a few states and as more examples of the belligerent tactics of the national private police force known as the TSA become more widely known, we will have more. I have faith that the American ideal of personal freedom will prevail in the end.

Just in case anybody want to read a professional's opinion on the state of security at our nation's airports and Israel's security protocols, I'll leave a link.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2010/04/tsa-argues-body-scanners-are-worth-it-israel-provides-helpful-insights/

[RichieLion]

Creepy is fixating on groping and scanning. Need to spend more time on the uninformed populace and that infernal liberal media.

Not meant for you Chi-Town. Meant for someone with seemingly little ability for intelligent debate and lots of time to personal deride.

I'm fixated on personal freedom Chi-town. Why lower yourself with your comment. Investigate and see what's happened to some of your fellow citizens at the airports and how many lies have been told to us. Expand your field of reference.

[Chi-Town]

Not meant for you Chi-Town. Meant for someone with seemingly little ability for intelligent debate and lots of time to personal deride.

I'm fixated on personal freedom Chi-town. Why lower yourself with your comment. Investigate and see what's happened to some of your fellow citizens at the airports and how many lies have been told to us. Expand your field of reference.
Okay. Thanks.

[RichieLion]

How about this story? Riker's Islands inmates were awarded $35 Million Dollars for illegal strip searches after they were arrested for various crimes. It's a bit more invasive than the subject matter here, as they were physically stripped and airline passengers are virtually stripped, but it's still worthy of some thought.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/frisk_reward_for_cons_3HKxKohISVrWs1fozUXhFJ

[K9-Lovers]

Quill and RichieLion,

Instead of downgrading passenger security, why not focus on upgrading the rest of airport security where the alleged "gaps" exist? If you focus your energy in that direction, it seems you would be accomplishing a greater good.

And, yes Quill, I would love to see breathalizers in all vehicles to eliminate drunks being able to turn on the car ignition.

[RichieLion]

Quill and RichieLion,

Instead of downgrading passenger security, why not focus on upgrading the rest of airport security where the alleged "gaps" exist? If you focus your energy in that direction, it seems you would be accomplishing a greater good.

And, yes Quill, I would love to see breathalizers in all vehicles to eliminate drunks being able to turn on the car ignition.

Sorry, I don't agree. System needs complete overhaul and transformation into something very close to Israeli model.

[EdV]

You seem to have overlooked the fact that we are at war with these terrorists. Remember that these religious fanatics are quite willing to blow themselves up along with as many innocent victims as possible in order to spend eternity with Allah surrounded by a hundred virgins.

If you don’t like the way our government defends itself and its citizens against these terrorists, then don’t place your private parts onto our public transportation. Want to fly with little or no TSA intervention, charter a private plane. But just because you aren’t wealthy enough to afford that, don’t ask us to completely drop our guard and lean into the punch for you.

These security measures will not guaranty our safety on public transportation but are merely one of many defenses that are necessary in order to win the war against terrorism.

And remember too that we have temporarily given up certain rights in the past during times of war. During WWII my father was an engineer working for a defense contractor and was not allowed to change jobs without government approval.

[katezbox]

You seem to have overlooked the fact that we are at war with these terrorists. Remember that these religious fanatics are quite willing to blow themselves up along with as many innocent victims as possible in order to spend eternity with Allah surrounded by a hundred virgins.

If you don’t like the way our government defends itself and its citizens against these terrorists, then don’t place your private parts onto our public transportation. Want to fly with little or no TSA intervention, charter a private plane. But just because you aren’t wealthy enough to afford that, don’t ask us to completely drop our guard and lean into the punch for you.

These security measures will not guaranty our safety on public transportation but are merely one of many defenses that are necessary in order to win the war against terrorism.

And remember too that we have temporarily given up certain rights in the past during times of war. During WWII my father was an engineer working for a defense contractor and was not allowed to change jobs without government approval.

Well said, Ed...

But my guess is the response will be that what TSA is doing is NOT protecting us; I disagree. Also there will be a link to airport security in Israel. If you think our freedoms are at risk - you should read up on theirs! They stop all people entering an airport for a check of the entire vehicle. If they think you look nervous or suspicious, you are pulled over and the entire car is searched. You then pass through the lines with people judging if you look suspicious. Then there are electronic scanners. If you have an Arab-sounding name you are subjected to a full body search - which may include cavity searches....

[graciegirl]

Well said, Ed...

But my guess is the response will be that what TSA is doing is NOT protecting us; I disagree. Also there will be a link to airport security in Israel. If you think our freedoms are at risk - you should read up on theirs! They stop all people entering an airport for a check of the entire vehicle. If they think you look nervous or suspicious, you are pulled over and the entire car is searched. You then pass through the lines with people judging if you look suspicious. Then there are electronic scanners. If you have an Arab-sounding name you are subjected to a full body search - which may include cavity searches....

ooooch.

Cavity searches.:yuck::sad::undecided:

[Challenger]

Isreali air security cost= approx $80 per passenger , US = less than $7.

Isreal= approx 11,000,000 passenengers per year, international and domestic.

US Passengers 2010=809,000,000x $70+/- = $56,000,000,000.

Isreal has two international and 6-8 domestic airports with scheduled passenger service. The US has 376 airports with schedules pass. service

Although there may be elements of the Israeli system that could be used, does anyone believe their system is practical here?

[RichieLion]

Isreali air security cost= approx $80 per passenger , US = less than $7.

Isreal= approx 11,000,000 passenengers per year, international and domestic.

US Passengers 2010=809,000,000x $70+/- = $56,000,000,000.

Isreal has two international and 6-8 domestic airports with scheduled passenger service. The US has 376 airports with schedules pass. service

Although there may be elements of the Israeli system that could be used, does anyone believe their system is practical here?

I don't see any links to back up your figures, but again, I put no price on American liberty.

Yes, it is correct that I believe, with much evidence on my side, that the TSA is blowing smoke up your butt with their security theatre as they take away your freedom and dignity as free Americans.

The vast majority of Israeli passengers are whisked through through airports with no lines. Certain passengers who fit certain behavioral profiles are singled out for scrutiny with amazing success. If you are not one of those deemed to be checked you whiz through the line, with anything you're carrying. Israelis know more about freedom than Americans now.

I linked a good site before outlining Israeli Security protocols. How about reading it. You might learn something and that's not a bad thing.

[Challenger]

Rich--My figures come from research today on various internet sites and I welcome correction if someone can produce better info. I post them only because I hear so often that we should adopt the Israeli system without any reference to the costs. I believe that is what the past several national administrations have done with such devestating consequences for our children and grandchildren. I am concerned about the relinquishment of freedoms, but I also believe that freedom from violence is a worthy objective that may in some cases trump others. BTW my son is an international airline pilot; my daughter a retired flight attendant; my daughter in law , a retired flight attendant; my son in law, a retired marine pilot and I am a private pilot. They have described to me many times procedures and shortcomings in secutiry well beyond those that you have mentioned here.

Pilots and crew go through essentially the same security checks as passengers( as if it matters, remember the Egyptian Pilot sucicide crash off LI) and a wrong comment to a TSA inspector can result in severe disciplinary procedures against them.Clearly there are some procedures that need revisitation and I am hopeful that discussions and debates such as ours will result in a better process. Do you think that they are listening?

[katezbox]

Where would the funds come from to enlarge airports to allow passengers to be studied? to enlarge roadways to avoid tie ups outside the airports? to hire the additional screeners to make all this work? and how will you ever sell the traveling public on the need to get to the airport 4-5 hours before their flights? Also, many flights within the US have connections - many in Israel do not.. how do you handle the vast number of travelers going from one airport to another and then to a third...

Our system is far from perfect - but all this talk of naked scans and inappropriate search and seizure is political posturing. Fox never brought this up during the Bush presidency, why now?

[RichieLion]

Rich--My figures come from research today on various internet sites and I welcome correction if someone can produce better info. I post them only because I hear so often that we should adopt the Israeli system without any reference to the costs. I believe that is what the past several national administrations have done with such devestating consequences for our children and grandchildren. I am concerned about the relinquishment of freedoms, but I also believe that freedom from violence is a worthy objective that may in some cases trump others. BTW my son is an international airline pilot; my daughter a retired flight attendant; my daughter in law , a retired flight attendant; my son in law, a retired marine pilot and I am a private pilot. They have described to me many times procedures and shortcomings in secutiry well beyond those that you have mentioned here.

Pilots and crew go through essentially the same security checks as passengers( as if it matters, remember the Egyptian Pilot sucicide crash off LI) and a wrong comment to a TSA inspector can result in severe disciplinary procedures against them.Clearly there are some procedures that need revisitation and I am hopeful that discussions and debates such as ours will result in a better process. Do you think that they are listening?

To start from the beginning; Lawmakers in New Hampshire have written a bill to outlaw the procedures, a bi-partisan group of 18 lawmakers from Texas, backed by the liberal ALCU, have written a bill to ban the procedures and N.J. also has or had a bill written by lawmakers to ban these procedures which many feel is contrary to the intent of the 4th Amendment.

So, yes, some are listening.

Having as much practical experience as you have you know that what I'm saying in this thread is not nonsense. There are ways to beat our reactionary system and if we know it, so do the terrorists. So the sense of security many on this forum feel is illusionary, and they gave up their rights and liberty for that false sense of security.

A good friend of mine who is related to an airline pilot told me this story. The pilot was going through security the morning of a flight. Because of stay-overs he carries silverware that the airline provides 1st class passengers with him for convenience. The TSA agent said he couldn't take the dull knife with a few ridges on board. The pilot explained that this is the knife that is already on the plane and given to passengers in 1st class. Needless to say it fell on deaf ears and the silverware in question was confiscated.

I feel so much safer now.

This is the same pilot that will be piloting this huge aircraft laden with fuel and who has a gun in the cockpit.

[EdV]

Richie, looking at your avatar/picture, if I were you I wouldn’t be pushing too hard for Israeli style racial profiling.

[RichieLion]

Richie, looking at your avatar/picture, if I were you I wouldn’t be pushing too hard for Israeli style racial profiling.

?????? Me, a nice boy of Italian descent with my big blue eyes, and my Buddy, Rusty?

I'll assume you're in a humorous mood and I'll remain in kind, but really, I don't get it.

[EdV]

...Me, a nice boy of Italian descent with my big blue eyes.....

Well that would certainly help, but just to be on the safe side, don't get into the security line with a towel over your head.

:wave:

[RichieLion]

Well that would certainly help, but just to be on the safe side, don't get into the security line with a towel over your head.

:wave:

Still not funny, but OK. Also, you really don't understand the Israeli security procedures. Your take seems very shallow, but then, I'll assume you're still struggling for humor.

[skyguy79]

Our system is far from perfect - but all this talk of naked scans and inappropriate search and seizure is political posturing. Fox never brought this up during the Bush presidency, why now?There is a good reason Fox as well as MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC never brought this up during the Bush presidency. It's because Bush was no longer president when the current contraversial security measures began. The full body scanners didn't begin being installed in airports until 2008 and the more aggressive attention getting body pat downs only began last year. I'm sure though that you just forgot all that and that the undeserved dig at Fox was unintentional!

[K9-Lovers]

There is a good reason Fox as well as MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC never brought this up during the Bush presidency. It's because Bush was no longer president when the current contraversial security measures began. The full body scanners didn't begin being installed in airports until 2008 and the more aggressive attention getting body pat downs only began last year. I'm sure though that you just forgot all that and that the undeserved dig at Fox was unintentional!

:clap2:

[katezbox]

:clap2:

Applaud all u want - but the first scanners went into service in 2007.

Even if they did begin in 2008, as you claim, do you think this was something that had no development time?

[skyguy79]

Applaud all u want - but the first scanners went into service in 2007.

Even if they did begin in 2008, as you claim, do you think this was something that had no development time?You are right about 2007 and I was wrong about 2008 regarding scanners.

The first scanner was installed on 5/15/07... in the NETHERLANDS. However, in the U.S. the scanners weren't installed in 2008... or 2007. According to the USA Today article at the following link, the U.S. installations began in 2010: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-02-23-full-body-scanners-Boston_N.htm

Time sure flies when you're having fun!

K-9, resume your:clap2:!

[K9-Lovers]

K-9, resume your:clap2:!

:BigApplause:

[katezbox]

You are right about 2007 and I was wrong about 2008 regarding scanners.

The first scanner was installed on 5/15/07... in the NETHERLANDS. However, in the U.S. the scanners weren't installed in 2008... or 2007. According to the USA Today article at the following link, the U.S. installations began in 2010: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-02-23-full-body-scanners-Boston_N.htm

Time sure flies when you're having fun!

K-9, resume your:clap2:!


Sky Guy - thanks for the update. TSA's website says 2007. I should have checked an alternate source. However, read the last paragraph of your linked article. At the time the first 150 scanners purchased with the stimulus $, there were already 40 in place at 19 airports.

And the main opposers were the ACLU...I stand by politically motivated.

By the way - off to catch a flight in a couple of hours - I'll let you know if the pat down was good for me....

[skyguy79]

Sky Guy - thanks for the update. TSA's website says 2007. I should have checked an alternate source. However, read the last paragraph of your linked article. At the time the first 150 scanners purchased with the stimulus $, there were already 40 in place at 19 airports.

And the main opposers were the ACLU...I stand by politically motivated.

By the way - off to catch a flight in a couple of hours - I'll let you know if the pat down was good for me....You're welcome, and I can't disagree about "politically motivated" nor can I disagree with anything you stated prior to that statement! However, you did point out something that helps prove that my original point was correct, that being that Fox was wrongfully singled out. But that's not really a big deal since we should be used to that kind of thing happening to Fox by now.

The point that you made was the mentioning of the scanners being purchased with stimulus $. In addition, the middle of the USA Today article also supported my point by stating, "The new scanners have not been available since the Obama administration announced last February it would provide $1 billion for airport screening as part of its stimulus plan."

Perhaps the TSA information was correct but just presented in a manner that was a tad misleading. Gosh, as a government agency, the TSA wouldn't intentionally try and mislead us... would they? Would they? {silence} http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCsOuGwuxIUPCWOCtETuybcCSiPLrET mahnDexF3---98AYQkF&t=1

[katezbox]

You're welcome, and I can't disagree about "politically motivated" nor can I disagree with anything you stated prior to that statement! However, you did point out something that helps prove that my original point was correct, that being that Fox was wrongfully singled out. But that's not really a big deal since we should be used to that kind of thing happening to Fox by now.

The point that you made was the mentioning of the scanners being purchased with stimulus $. In addition, the middle of the USA Today article also supported my point by stating, "The new scanners have not been available since the Obama administration announced last February it would provide $1 billion for airport screening as part of its stimulus plan."

Perhaps the TSA information was correct but just presented in a manner that was a tad misleading. Gosh, as a government agency, the TSA wouldn't intentionally try and mislead us... would they? Would they? {silence} http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCsOuGwuxIUPCWOCtETuybcCSiPLrET mahnDexF3---98AYQkF&t=1

You sure have gotten that right! :pepper2:

[skyguy79]

You sure have gotten that right! :pepper2:BTW, have a safe trip and a memorable pat down!:p

[K9-Lovers]

Yes, Have a safe trip Katezbox. Bet you'll be thinking about us as you go through security. :D

[RichieLion]

Pennsylvania has joined the fight against assault by the TSA with House Bill 852 filed recently.

http://www.mygov365.com/legislation/view/id/4d6ca9a249e51b42569c0300/tab/versions/

[RichieLion]

Testimony on the Hill by GOP leaders call TSA measures "totally useless". We are being heard and more and more legislators are paying attention. Little by little, one step at a time.

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/tsa/150053-after-appearance-drama-gop-calls-tsa-scanners-thoroughly-useless

[Tbugs]

Richie,
I know you are very honest in your viewpoints on TSA technology. You have all kinds of articles that are against the scanners and pat-downs. Precisely, what do you recommend as the best form of detecting weapons or explosives from being taken onto planes? We are currently supposed to arrive at airports 2 hours before a flight, I believe. How early would passengers have to arrive for some of these plans?

Airlines must understand that certain types of passengers are "red flags". These are cash-paying at the last minute passengers; I am all for profiling for racial or nationality types based on appearance, dress, or demeanor; and denying flight to these people. Not politically correct by any means but my viewpoint. Please respect my opinion.

[RichieLion]

Richie,
I know you are very honest in your viewpoints on TSA technology. You have all kinds of articles that are against the scanners and pat-downs. Precisely, what do you recommend as the best form of detecting weapons or explosives from being taken onto planes? We are currently supposed to arrive at airports 2 hours before a flight, I believe. How early would passengers have to arrive for some of these plans?

Airlines must understand that certain types of passengers are "red flags". These are cash-paying at the last minute passengers; I am all for profiling for racial or nationality types based on appearance, dress, or demeanor; and denying flight to these people. Not politically correct by any means but my viewpoint. Please respect my opinion.

I don't have all the answers Tbugs. I just know that the intrusion on American citizens personal privacy without probable cause is against everything we stand for in this country, and it kills me how many people are willing to let the government to anything to them, and especially to their children, all in the name of a false sense of security.

I'm a God fearing retired truck driver. I'm not a security expert. I just think I know what is wrong when I see it. From what I've read though, it seems the Israelis have a good system that doesn't degrade their people the way our system degrades us. Some people say it'll cost too much. Well, I'd like to see it discussed in the halls of Congress. Lobbyists are making a fortune selling these machines and they're pouring money into the pockets of politicians to force this down our throats (or should I say down our pants?)

For now, I don't fly. My wife is going to fly up to celebrate our granddaughter's 1st birthday soon and I'm not going as I can't face the 18 hour drive up there again so soon, and with my medical implants, I won't face the gestapo at the airport. I don't need the stress.

Did you see where the x-ray machines were emitting 10X the radiation they told us? We're being used, abused and lied to.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/tsa-radiation-test-bungling/

[misfortune13]

nice thread
http://freeimagestocks.com/content/20/grey.png

[Russ_Boston]

My wife is going to fly up to celebrate our granddaughter's 1st birthday soon and I'm not going as I can't face the 18 hour drive up there again so soon, and with my medical implants, I won't face the gestapo at the airport. I don't need the stress.

Wow, I can certainly say that you are committed to your cause. You could submit to a pat down (and thus avoid the radiation) and fly with your wife for your granddaughter's 1st birthday but your convictions won't allow. I wouldn't make the same choice but I can respect yours.

[rubicon]

If she is a "3" or below its sexual harassement, 4 to 7 an inconvenience, 8 or above a necessity and if a male a direct violation to my Constitutional Rights meaning if you touch me I will sue:BigApplause: