Peek into the future of Nationalized Healthcare (ObamaCare)

[Guest]

The U.K. has begun to ration surgeries in an attempt to cut costs and are denying applicants hip and knee replacements, cataract surgeries, tonsillectomies, varicose vein procedures, children's ear procedures. Next on the list of procedures to be strictly curtailed are operations in gastroenterology, gynecology, dermatology and orthopedics.

When the government is in control of our healthcare, and you couple that with their obsession to spend money in other areas for their own political benefit, it is patently predictable as to what programs our "representatives" will cut when they're looking for funding, and see your individual needs as "not serious enough" to warrant "new spending". They will, and are now in the U.K. showing us how the government will treat the needs of an individual in light of the other programs they wish to fund.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cataracts-hips-knees-and-tonsils-nhs-begins-rationing-operations-2327268.html

[Guest]

As far as I know, there has never been a centralized government that has ever been successful. Why do people keep trying the old proven failures over and over again. If mental illness is described as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, then liberalism is a mental disorder.

[Guest]

The U.K. has begun to ration surgeries in an attempt to cut costs and are denying applicants hip and knee replacements, cataract surgeries, tonsillectomies, varicose vein procedures, children's ear procedures. Next on the list of procedures to be strictly curtailed are operations in gastroenterology, gynecology, dermatology and orthopedics.

When the government is in control of our healthcare, and you couple that with their obsession to spend money in other areas for their own political benefit, it is patently predictable as to what programs our "representatives" will cut when they're looking for funding, and see your individual needs as "not serious enough" to warrant "new spending". They will, and are now in the U.K. showing us how the government will treat the needs of an individual in light of the other programs they wish to fund.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cataracts-hips-knees-and-tonsils-nhs-begins-rationing-operations-2327268.html

Your argument is a syllogism. Under Cameron, British National Health was bound to start rationing care. Why? He doesn't like it and doesn't want to pay for it.

Imagine the social safety net under President Rand Paul...now don't blink! If the social safety net had it's funding slashed and started to fail is that the fault of the safety net or the natural result of Mr. Paul's election? To blame it on the safety net is an incorrect inference.

The model of a successful single payer system is France. Check WHO statitics. It's cheaper than our system on a per capita basis, everyone is covered, it offers cutting edge technology (when needed), and the French love it (and the French rarely love anything but themselves or a girlfriend on the side).

Harbor

[Guest]

Just talk to me about NH, I have stories to make your hair curl - not in a good way, either. My aunt, having waited 3 years for a hip replacement, fell down the stairs and passed away. My father-in-law was hit by a car as he walked on the pedestrian crossing. He laid in the road for over 3 hours, before my relative arrived to take charge. When the attending police officer responded to her question as to "why has my 92 year old father lain in the road this long", the officer replied with a red face "the hospital dispatcher told me he is not priority due to his age".... That nightmare story continues. Another relative passed away in the doctor's waiting room, where she had been instructed to wait while a hot pack was obtained for her "jaw pain"... Of course, she suffered a fatal heart attack. Before I left the UK, I was fortunate enough to receive approval for a throat operation. When I arrived at one of the better hospitals in London, I was given a 2 year old child (patient) to "manage" prior to my surgery. I was single, had no knowledge of children, and yet I had to diaper, feed and clean another's child. I am just scraping the surface here, folks. Believe me, we do not need National Health Medical service. Whew, sorry for the rant, but I dread the day.....

[Guest]

Your argument is a syllogism. Under Cameron, British National Health was bound to start rationing care. Why? He doesn't like it and doesn't want to pay for it.

Imagine the social safety net under President Rand Paul...now don't blink! If the social safety net had it's funding slashed and started to fail is that the fault of the safety net or the natural result of Mr. Paul's election? To blame it on the safety net is an incorrect inference.

The model of a successful single payer system is France. Check WHO statitics. It's cheaper than our system on a per capita basis, everyone is covered, it offers cutting edge technology (when needed), and the French love it (and the French rarely love anything but themselves or a girlfriend on the side).

Harbor

Are you implying that you would trust U.S. bureaucrats to administrate the health care of you and those you love? Really? I know I don't. I cringe at the thought of the 15 non-accountable government appointees who would be deciding who got what health care and when and how and if.

We ain't France (thank God)

[Guest]

And the sky is falling....the sky is falling!:D

[Guest]

While the UK, France and Massachuetts give us some indications, I believe our own statistics speak louder.

In 1965 Medicare was projected to cost only $12 billion in the 1990's. It cost us $110 billion. Medicaid cost $4 billion in 1966, $41 billion in 1986,and $243 billion last year. Welfare (resdistribution programs) housing, food stamps ,etc
is spending $20,000 for every man woman and child in poverty. We have a $2.1 trillion on programs and now faced with the beginning of baby boomers taking retirement. The obvious point is that the governement has always, and I suspected intentionally, under estimated the costs associated with redistribution programs. Now Obama wants to add ObamaCare to the mix. If he wins we will have a single payer system and one that has shown in the past to be hopelessly inefficient and ineffective.

[Guest]

All this talk still doesn't tackle the subject of why we pay more (over 2x as much as #2 per capita) for less care and have a dramatically lower lifespan than the other industrialized nations.

The CIA's own statistics put us on par with *CUBA* when it comes to life expectency.

There's plenty of "but (other-county's-solution) will make it worse!" but nothing on what might actually solve the problem or even start slowing the financial hemmorage.

[Guest]

Are you implying that you would trust U.S. bureaucrats to administrate the health care of you and those you love? Really? I know I don't. I cringe at the thought of the 15 non-accountable government appointees who would be deciding who got what health care and when and how and if.

We ain't France (thank God)

We (you and I) trust the government to protect us from foreign threats - to monitor our food and water - to guide our airplanes in flight - as well as regulate our nuclear plants. The "government" is not a "they" - it is an "us."

Now, maybe you don't like yourself. I can understand that. Nevertheless, we live in one of the most wonderful countries on earth. Hopefully, we are all working together to keep it that way and even improve it. I guess as I age, I become more of a love it or leave it kinda guy. You don't like the government here - vote to change it - but, it you think that this grand experiment in democracy isn't up to your standards - I sure there are a bunch of other places where you might feel the love more.

You can't profess love for this country and hate the collective will of its people.

For too long, liberals have allowed themselves to be branded as anti-American. Nonsense! I love my country and I am willing to pay more in higher taxes and shared sacrifice to ensure my child will continue to enjoy the blessings of its dream.

Harbor

[Guest]

All this talk still doesn't tackle the subject of why we pay more (over 2x as much as #2 per capita) for less care and have a dramatically lower lifespan than the other industrialized nations.

The CIA's own statistics put us on par with *CUBA* when it comes to life expectency.

There's plenty of "but (other-county's-solution) will make it worse!" but nothing on what might actually solve the problem or even start slowing the financial hemmorage.

Cuba???? Have you fallen off the deep end???? LOL

[Guest]

We (you and I) trust the government to protect us from foreign threats - to monitor our food and water - to guide our airplanes in flight - as well as regulate our nuclear plants. The "government" is not a "they" - it is an "us."

Now, maybe you don't like yourself. I can understand that. Nevertheless, we live in one of the most wonderful countries on earth. Hopefully, we are all working together to keep it that way and even improve it. I guess as I age, I become more of a love it or leave it kinda guy. You don't like the government here - vote to change it - but, it you think that this grand experiment in democracy isn't up to your standards - I sure there are a bunch of other places where you might feel the love more.

You can't profess love for this country and hate the collective will of its people.

For too long, liberals have allowed themselves to be branded as anti-American. Nonsense! I love my country and I am willing to pay more in higher taxes and shared sacrifice to ensure my child will continue to enjoy the blessings of its dream.

Harbor

What is the collective will of the people? Tell us. Liberals do not love this country. Liberals want to chang this country into a mirror image of Europe. If liberals love europe so much, why don't they relocate? Liberals love America is a joke.

[Guest]

We (you and I) trust the government to protect us from foreign threats - to monitor our food and water - to guide our airplanes in flight - as well as regulate our nuclear plants. The "government" is not a "they" - it is an "us."

Now, maybe you don't like yourself. I can understand that. Nevertheless, we live in one of the most wonderful countries on earth. Hopefully, we are all working together to keep it that way and even improve it. I guess as I age, I become more of a love it or leave it kinda guy. You don't like the government here - vote to change it - but, it you think that this grand experiment in democracy isn't up to your standards - I sure there are a bunch of other places where you might feel the love more.

You can't profess love for this country and hate the collective will of its people.

For too long, liberals have allowed themselves to be branded as anti-American. Nonsense! I love my country and I am willing to pay more in higher taxes and shared sacrifice to ensure my child will continue to enjoy the blessings of its dream.

Harbor

COLLECTIVE WILL OF THE PEOPLE??? Are you kidding me? ObamaCare, the "will of the people". Now I've heard everything. Whatever you're smoking, I'd stop.

[Guest]

Just talk to me about NH, I have stories to make your hair curl - not in a good way, either. My aunt, having waited 3 years for a hip replacement, fell down the stairs and passed away. My father-in-law was hit by a car as he walked on the pedestrian crossing. He laid in the road for over 3 hours, before my relative arrived to take charge. When the attending police officer responded to her question as to "why has my 92 year old father lain in the road this long", the officer replied with a red face "the hospital dispatcher told me he is not priority due to his age".... That nightmare story continues. Another relative passed away in the doctor's waiting room, where she had been instructed to wait while a hot pack was obtained for her "jaw pain"... Of course, she suffered a fatal heart attack. Before I left the UK, I was fortunate enough to receive approval for a throat operation. When I arrived at one of the better hospitals in London, I was given a 2 year old child (patient) to "manage" prior to my surgery. I was single, had no knowledge of children, and yet I had to diaper, feed and clean another's child. I am just scraping the surface here, folks. Believe me, we do not need National Health Medical service. Whew, sorry for the rant, but I dread the day.....

Shrandell~Thank you so much for sharing these hideous facts. I am so sorry to hear about the unnecessary suffering that your relatives were put through. God help us when we live in a country that already treats our pets better than we treat the unwanted unborn, and similar happenings as you have described are around the corner. What is it that people don't understand? Or is it that the truth is two horrendous to accept? I think that is a main reason why Hitler got away with such atrocities because no one even wanted to believe and accept the facts. God help us and God help the countries of our world that are already experiencing the effects of governments that think they should control everything on the pretense of compassion and concern. My heart goes out to you and thank you again for sharing. I can only hope that more people will be courageous enough to speak out and make others aware of these facts. I can only pray that people will be able to actually listen and respond with authentic TLC.:cry:

[Guest]

I love my country and I am willing to pay more in higher taxes and shared sacrifice to ensure my child will continue to enjoy the blessings of its dream.

Harbor


Then go ahead and pay more and sacrifice more. Who is stopping you from sending more money to DC? That plan just doesn't happen to fit my definition of enjoying the blessing of my dreams. My dreams have been fulfilled by hard work and planned budget and personal accountability. When the government starts to operate with hard work, strict budget and accountability, then I will consider sending them extra dollars also. As far as ensuring blessings for my children, I spent every hard earned penny on excellent private education from preschool to grad school. I taught them the meaning of hard work and the satisfaction that can come from it. I taught the importance of fiscal responsibility. I ensured blessings for them the way I felt in my heart of hearts to be right. They are gifts from God and therefore my responsibility, not the responsibility of someone elses tax money, and not to be taken care of at the whim of some politican who decides the right food and the right courses to be taught to them. I will answer for how I raised them, no one else, I would never ask for that and I have never expected it. I have taught them that they will have what they work hard for and I have taught them not to take from others, but to help the less fortunate when they find them.

[Guest]

so let me get this right. Only conservatives love America and god only loves conservatives. That is just plain stupid and an insult to the American people.

[Guest]

so let me get this right. Only conservatives love America and god only loves conservatives. That is just plain stupid and an insult to the American people.

No, you are half-right. God probably loves misguided liberals.

[Guest]

What is the collective will of the people? Tell us. Liberals do not love this country. Liberals want to chang this country into a mirror image of Europe. If liberals love europe so much, why don't they relocate? Liberals love America is a joke.

You can criticize my politics all you want; deride my liberalism; discount my beliefs; even call me any names you want. BUT DON'T TELL ME I DON'T LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!!!!!! In the words of Keith Olbermann, you sir, are an idiot. :(

[Guest]

We (you and I) trust the government to protect us from foreign threats - to monitor our food and water - to guide our airplanes in flight - as well as regulate our nuclear plants. The "government" is not a "they" - it is an "us."

Now, maybe you don't like yourself. I can understand that. Nevertheless, we live in one of the most wonderful countries on earth. Hopefully, we are all working together to keep it that way and even improve it. I guess as I age, I become more of a love it or leave it kinda guy. You don't like the government here - vote to change it - but, it you think that this grand experiment in democracy isn't up to your standards - I sure there are a bunch of other places where you might feel the love more.

You can't profess love for this country and hate the collective will of its people.

For too long, liberals have allowed themselves to be branded as anti-American. Nonsense! I love my country and I am willing to pay more in higher taxes and shared sacrifice to ensure my child will continue to enjoy the blessings of its dream.

Harbor

I just have always loved that dichotomy "love it or leave it". People who offer it as a solution are obviously saying your wrong and I'm right, its my way or the highway and by the way don't even attempt to enter into a cogent discussion because it may disturb the world as I view it.

[Guest]

You can criticize my politics all you want; deride my liberalism; discount my beliefs; even call me any names you want. BUT DON'T TELL ME I DON'T LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!!!!!! In the words of Keith Olbermann, you sir, are an idiot. :(

No, you've got it backwards. We're not saying you don't love your country, we're saying you're "the idiot". Please try to keep up.

[Guest]

No, you've got it backwards. We're not saying you don't love your country, we're saying you're "the idiot". Please try to keep up.

Richie, I have watched you for years be like a playground bully that never misses the opportunity to hit someone in the back. What are you like face to face?

[Guest]

You can criticize my politics all you want; deride my liberalism; discount my beliefs; even call me any names you want. BUT DON'T TELL ME I DON'T LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!!!!!! In the words of Keith Olbermann, you sir, are an idiot. :(

Ah, ridicule. Alinsky would be proud. When you want to change the principles that make this country great and want to make it like a mirror of Europe, then yes, you don't really love this country. Get it??

[Guest]

Richie, I have watched you for years be like a playground bully that never misses the opportunity to hit someone in the back. What are you like face to face?

I bet Ritchie is the kind of guy I would enjoy playing golf with and having a few brewskies. I know where he stands and I know he will not try to change my way of thinking but he will not be afraid to give his opinion while he looks me straight in the eyes. I know that I can trust him and I know he will watch my back. I know he is a hard working guy who really loves his country and does not want to change it for the worse. I know he has deep roots in the meaning of conservatism and he is very wise.

I know all these things because I have lurked here a long time and I have never met the man.
I also know he is not an idiot.

[Guest]

I bet Ritchie is the kind of guy I would enjoy playing golf with and having a few brewskies. I know where he stands and I know he will not try to change my way of thinking but he will not be afraid to give his opinion while he looks me straight in the eyes. I know that I can trust him and I know he will watch my back. I know he is a hard working guy who really loves his country and does not want to change it for the worse. I know he has deep roots in the meaning of conservatism and he is very wise.

I know all these things because I have lurked here a long time and I have never met the man.
I also know he is not an idiot.

Sounds like the stuff loving relationships are made of. I do agree with what you say, but with him, he uses whatever it takes to make folks angry and not whatever it takes the get them to understand. Childish in my opinion. I am a conservative myself, but don't agree with the Glenn Beck approach to explain my position. Just a thought.
No offense meant.

[Guest]

No offense taken. I do know that he has alot of patience because he has been called alot of things and he tries to retaliate with wit and he usually don't call people names. I respect that.

[Guest]

Ah, ridicule. Alinsky would be proud. When you want to change the principles that make this country great and want to make it like a mirror of Europe, then yes, you don't really love this country. Get it??

And what are those principles? Protect the rich at the expense of the poor, disabled and disadvantaged? Work or we don't care if you die? If you can't afford health care...too bad? If you can't afford an education, wallow in ignorance? If you don't believe in what I believe in you don't love your country? It's either your way or the highway?

I was raised to believe that the measure of a society (country) was how they treated the least among them. Our beliefs are so far apart they will never reconcile. Frankly, I feel a bit sorry for you.

[Guest]

And what are those principles? Protect the rich at the expense of the poor, disabled and disadvantaged? Work or we don't care if you die? If you can't afford health care...too bad? If you can't afford an education, wallow in ignorance? If you don't believe in what I believe in you don't love your country? It's either your way or the highway?

I was raised to believe that the measure of a society (country) was how they treated the least among them. Our beliefs are so far apart they will never reconcile. Frankly, I feel a bit sorry for you.

America has many opportunities for people who really want to work for them. America still distributes a way too high percentage of freebies for the lazy and no-goods. Many people come here for the advantages that they do not have in their native country. People come here with nothing and make good fortune.
Education? Don't make me laugh. Any bright student who studies and applies himself will get scholarships. The problem is the more money we give public education, the worse it becomes.
You sir, are an idealist. A socialist who thinks everybody is equal. We are not equal. We have the right to pursue happiness and that is all. And I think that is a great right!!!

[Guest]

As far as I know, there has never been a centralized government that has ever been successful....Ummm, China isn't doing too badly.

They're doing well enough to finance their own dramatic economic growth and have enough left over to finance a big chunk of our government spending.

[Guest]

Richie, I have watched you for years be like a playground bully that never misses the opportunity to hit someone in the back. What are you like face to face?

He was the one who called someone an idiot and when I put it back to him, you call ME out? Are you kidding me?

Whenever you want to see me face to face, let me know.

[Guest]

Ummm, China isn't doing too badly.

They're doing well enough to finance their own dramatic economic growth and have enough left over to finance a big chunk of our government spending.

China's not doing too badly? How about asking the vast bulk of the Chinese people how they're doing. Start off with asking the child laborers.

Seriously VK, this has got to be the worst examples of a country to admire I've ever heard. I'm thinking maybe a number of years living as a Chinese peasant would change your opinion, and have you screaming on your way back to the U.S.

[Guest]

Ummm, China isn't doing too badly.

They're doing well enough to finance their own dramatic economic growth and have enough left over to finance a big chunk of our government spending.

When you say "China" are you talking about their average citizen or their government? Your a riot Mr. K.

[Guest]

I think that VK is referring to the fact that China has elevated more peasants into their middle class than one could possibly count. Of course, due to their unique circumstances, they still have several hundred million peasant farmers out there as a supply to fill the manufacturing jobs that they're needing for the new factories.

We saw Japan do this in the 1960s and 70s. We saw Korea do it in the 1980s. We're even seeing Vietnam do it now.

At least the people HERE are old enough to remember the complaints agains "cheap, shoddy imported Japanese goods". Until Toyota ate GM's lunch in the 1970s. I remember hearing the Japanese complain about the Koreans IN THE SAME LANGUAGE in the 1980s as South Korea became the new "Asian Tiger".

Eventually, there will be fewer peasants to elevate to the middle class in China and someone else will take that role (do I hear any "African Tiger" candidates?)