Latest Development in the IRS Tax-Exempt-Bond Investigation

[Advogado]

I started this thread. It IS NOT about whether anybody hates the Developer or whether or not the Developer has given us a great place to live.

This thread IS about staying informed concerning the most important issue facing Villagers today-- one that COULD have a major impact on our lifestyle and investment. It is an issue that has been downplayed and distorted by the Developer-owned Daily Sun and by the Developer's subsidized organization-- the Villages Homeowners' Association. Unless one wants to live in a fantasy world, to suggest that the IRS investigation not be discussed in the forum is absurd.

Incidentally, in case you missed it, the latest development is reported in the last Property Owners' Association Bulletin.

[eweissenbach]

I started this thread. It IS NOT about whether anybody hates the Developer or whether or not the Developer has given us a great place to live.

This thread IS about staying informed concerning the most important issue facing Villagers today-- one that COULD have a major impact on our lifestyle and investment. It is an issue that has been downplayed and distorted by the Developer-owned Daily Sun and by the Developer's subsidized organization-- the Villages Homeowners' Association. Unless one wants to live in a fantasy world, to suggest that the IRS investigation not be discussed in the forum is absurd.

Incidentally, in case you missed it, the latest development is reported in the last Property Owners' Association Bulletin.

Thanks Advogado; If any of you want to catch up on all the IRS issues go to the POA website; http://poa4us.org/index.html
Go to the left nav "current issues" - IRS Issues

[Bill-n-Brillo]

.......Incidentally, in case you missed it, the latest development is reported in the last Property Owners' Association Bulletin.

Here's the link to the latest POA Bulletin:

http://www.poa4us.org/bulletins_files/bulletin201201.pdf

Bill :)

[kentucky blue]

[QUOTE=The Village Girl;438256]Someone asked a question about a law suit. Gracie was commenting on the "haters" on the developers who gave us this wonderful place to live. You know the people who want to live here but don't appreciate the developers who gave us all of this because the have more money then they do?

I do not think the developer "Gave Us" anything. They built a very nice community that we paid for and will pay for, until we move or die !

When i first came on this board,i had both guns blazing and took numerous hits.I needed to know everything about TV, and many posters felt i was just a troublemaker("a hater").It just seemed to good to be true, i wanted to know everything about TV and the IRS issue.While i still have concerns about the future settlement with the IRS,the postives of TV far outweigh the negatives.There is NO place in this entire country that offers the lifestyle opportunities we have in TV, and believe me i've checked. TV is...........A Criuse Ship On Land;)

[Indydealmaker]

[quote=2 Oldcrabs;438638]

When i first came on this board,i had both guns blazing and took numerous hits.I needed to know everything about TV, and many posters felt i was just a troublemaker("a hater").It just seemed to good to be true, i wanted to know everything about TV and the IRS issue.While i still have concerns about the future settlement with the IRS,the postives of TV far outweigh the negatives.There is NO place in this entire country that offers the lifestyle opportunities we have in TV, and believe me i've checked. TV is...........A Criuse Ship On Land;)

:agree:

[eweissenbach]

When i first came on this board,i had both guns blazing and took numerous hits.I needed to know everything about TV, and many posters felt i was just a troublemaker("a hater").It just seemed to good to be true, i wanted to know everything about TV and the IRS issue.While i still have concerns about the future settlement with the IRS,the postives of TV far outweigh the negatives.There is NO place in this entire country that offers the lifestyle opportunities we have in TV, and believe me i've checked. TV is...........A Criuse Ship On Land;)

I don't see these views as mutually exclusive. I love TV and admire what the Morses and Schwartz have done here. I will spend Feb and Mar. in TV and plan to buy there sometime this year. I agree it is a cruise ship on land. At the same time I am interested in the IRS issue, and see some possible flaws in the developers' ethics. I am most certainly not a "hater", but I recognize that for all the good works the Morses have done, they may not be saints.

[2 Oldcrabs]

The IRS position is that that developer charged the CDD (which he controlled) way too much money for some of the amenities. The CDD then sold Tax Free bonds to pay for them. Some people say the developer can charge as much money as he wants, "That's the American Way". The IRS argues not at the exspense of the US tax payer. If a contractor charges the Military $2,000 for a "toilet seat" is that obscene profits or "The American Way" If Bank of America charges an extra $5/month, is that morally wrong or the "The American Way" The bad thing is, the CDD has spend $200k defending the developer. Since we pay for the CDD, we are paying again. I just hope our "BENEFACTOR" does the right thing and puts this rest, so I can live 20 years in this beautiful place he gave us. Now I will have a glass of KOOL-AID!

[billdawn]

My wife and I are considering The Villages after a visit last year but I must admit that the IRS thing is an issue. What is most confusing is the lack of specificity on the potential impact to homeowners. I noted some $ amounts in earlier proposed settlements - $344 mil to repurchase the outstanding bonds and a $16 mil fine I think. Those figure can be used to assess costs to the the districts and determine the impact on homeowners. I bet it's been done already and it's not a pretty picture. Also, will homeowners have the right to sue the developer for damages if there is an unfavorable decision?

[eweissenbach]

My wife and I are considering The Villages after a visit last year but I must admit that the IRS thing is an issue. What is most confusing is the lack of specificity on the potential impact to homeowners. I noted some $ amounts in earlier proposed settlements - $344 mil to repurchase the outstanding bonds and a $16 mil fine I think. Those figure can be used to assess costs to the the districts and determine the impact on homeowners. I bet it's been done already and it's not a pretty picture. Also, will homeowners have the right to sue the developer for damages if there is an unfavorable decision?

The POA Property Owners Association (not affiliated with or approved by the developer), sued the developer several years ago on behalf of the residents and won. I would presume they would take a stand in the event of an adverse decision, and sue. FWIW, $360 million, spread over 50,000 households would be $7,200 per household.

[ilovetv]

I'm going to re-post this question I asked in post #219 quite awhile ago. I don't think my question has been answered by anyone.....

I hope that you are right about it being unlikely that the IRS's not prevailing, but, unfortunately, I don't think that we have any basis for that belief. ........
There is an analysis in the September 2009 edition: http://poa4us.org/bulletins_files/bulletin200909.pdf See later editions for subsequent developments, but that edition basically describes what is still at stake.

From this link above (Sept. 2009 edition of POA bulletin), how does this part affect homeowners?

"These two Center Districts are The Villages Center Community Development District (VCCDD) and The Sumter Landing Community Development District (SLCDD). They encompass, respectively, the Spanish Springs and Lake Sumter Landing town centers. The Center Districts have only commercial properties, and are not the “numbered districts” in which our homes are located."

I understood (maybe wrongly) from prior posts that our amenities fees go for our residential district, not these commercial properties that have commercial, leased property occupants paying for them. Can someone clarify?

[Joaniesmom]

My very first post on this site was asking about this very IRS/developer situation. I was treated so badly that I left the site for several months. But in that time I managed to grow a very tough hide and decided to return because there is a lot to be learned here.

Some people post here with backgrounds that enable them to intelligently help us understand what's going on with the IRS. The real trick is identifying them from among the others who enjoy posting their opinions with no real facts to back them up.

But as the chat goes on, it will become more and more obvious who is who. Or is that "whom?" I do love a good discussion, but let's try to be respectful to everyone's opinion. I know we can have a better, more intelligent discussion than our current presidential candidates! (both of them!)

Best wishes to all.

[Bogie Shooter]

You will no find any facts on TOTV unless someone is quoting from one of these sources. Those are the facts.
Village Community Development Districts (http://www.districtgov.org/IRSupdate.aspx)
All POA monthly bulletins. http://www.poa4us.org/
All HOA monthly bulletins. http://www.thevha.net/

------------------------------------
Any following posts will be a rehashing from the other 250+ posts.
Enjoy!

[Russ_Boston]

Some people post here with backgrounds that enable them to intelligently help us understand what's going on with the IRS. The real trick is identifying them from among the others who enjoy posting their opinions with no real facts to back them up.

Anyone here, anyone, who thinks they have the answer is wrong. They are just guessing. No one on TOTV is going to know since the IRS themselves don't know so how the heck can we know. All I know is that I didn't worry about it when I purchased two years ago and I'm not going to worry about it now. Life's too short.

[eweissenbach]

Anyone here, anyone, who thinks they have the answer is wrong. They are just guessing. No one on TOTV is going to know since the IRS themselves don't know so how the heck can we know. All I know is that I didn't worry about it when I purchased two years ago and I'm not going to worry about it now. Life's too short.

We have a winner!

[Bogie Shooter]

We have a winner!

He has said that before! It is time to listen. Yes, Russ is a winner.

[ilovetv]

My very first post on this site was asking about this very IRS/developer situation. I was treated so badly that I left the site for several months. But in that time I managed to grow a very tough hide and decided to return because there is a lot to be learned here.

Some people post here with backgrounds that enable them to intelligently help us understand what's going on with the IRS. The real trick is identifying them from among the others who enjoy posting their opinions with no real facts to back them up.

But as the chat goes on, it will become more and more obvious who is who. Or is that "whom?" I do love a good discussion, but let's try to be respectful to everyone's opinion. I know we can have a better, more intelligent discussion than our current presidential candidates! (both of them!)

Best wishes to all.

If you want to have a "better, more intelligent discussion", it's advisable to leave out comparisons of political candidates.

[nitehawk]

If you want to have a "better, more intelligent discussion", it's advisable to leave out comparisons of political candidates.[/quote]

:agree:

[2BNTV]

Anyone here, anyone, who thinks they have the answer is wrong. They are just guessing. No one on TOTV is going to know since the IRS themselves don't know so how the heck can we know. All I know is that I didn't worry about it when I purchased two years ago and I'm not going to worry about it now. Life's too short.

:agree: Thoughful an intelligent post.

[aljetmet]

My wife and I are considering The Villages after a visit last year but I must admit that the IRS thing is an issue. What is most confusing is the lack of specificity on the potential impact to homeowners. I noted some $ amounts in earlier proposed settlements - $344 mil to repurchase the outstanding bonds and a $16 mil fine I think. Those figure can be used to assess costs to the the districts and determine the impact on homeowners. I bet it's been done already and it's not a pretty picture. Also, will homeowners have the right to sue the developer for damages if there is an unfavorable decision?

Wouldn't the district turnaround the $344 mil and issue taxable bonds?

[rubicon]

What we do know is that the IRS filed a Notice in January 2009 making inquiry concerning tax free bonds issued March 31, 2003 to Village Center Community Development District to make purchases of facilities and streams of income from the Villages Lake/Sumter, Inc (Developer) challenging both the status of said bonds as qualified for tax free status and also questioning the matter and methods of appraisal of said products and the stream of income. What we do know is that both the VCCDD and the Developer have denied such allegations and have been in an ongoing battle with the IRS from said filing date. What we do know is that all income from the district emanates from its residents and hence there is great concern/interest in this dispute as to its outcome. What we do know is that the IRS has been adamant and determined in its pursuit of this matter. What we do know is that information is provided by the VHA or POA .

However what we do not know is that if the information provided by the VHA or the POA is in total an accounting of what is actually taking place as is received by them. In otherwords are they getting the full story? Also how much of a lag of time exists from negotiations until results are reported to the residents?

What we don't fully know is why the IRS continues in its pursuit of this March 31, 2003 transaction nor the consequences if the IRS prevails?

Personally, a brow furrows when a resident dismisses this issue out of hand. Certainly cooler heads prevail but this is one issue where it behooves us all to have our heads in the game.

I opine others can decide.

[graciegirl]

What we do know is that the IRS filed a Notice in January 2009 making inquiry concerning tax free bonds issued March 31, 2003 to Village Center Community Development District to make purchases of facilities and streams of income from the Villages Lake/Sumter, Inc (Developer) challenging both the status of said bonds as qualified for tax free status and also questioning the matter and methods of appraisal of said products and the stream of income. What we do know is that both the VCCDD and the Developer have denied such allegations and have been in an ongoing battle with the IRS from said filing date. What we do know is that all income from the district emanates from its residents and hence there is great concern/interest in this dispute as to its outcome. What we do know is that the IRS has been adamant and determined in its pursuit of this matter. What we do know is that information is provided by the VHA or POA .

However what we do not know is that if the information provided by the VHA or the POA is in total an accounting of what is actually taking place as is received by them. In otherwords are they getting the full story? Also how much of a lag of time exists from negotiations until results are reported to the residents?

What we don't fully know is why the IRS continues in its pursuit of this March 31, 2003 transaction nor the consequences if the IRS prevails?

Personally, a brow furrows when a resident dismisses this issue out of hand. Certainly cooler heads prevail but this is one issue where it behooves us all to have our heads in the game.

I opine others can decide.

Rubicon. Excellent post.

We will probably be moving to The Village of Heavenly before this is resolved.

I agree with Russ.

[ilovetv]

It's good to be informed and aware of this ongoing matter that seems to have produced nothing conclusive so far.

However, scaring away newcomers and buyers with talk that is pure conjecture is not good for all of us homeowners' position here, either.

[Bogie Shooter]

No new information. Just another opinion.

[rubicon]

There goes that furrowed brow again. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[buggyone]

Rubicon, my old buddy, I am sure everyone realizes that the Morse family has many lawyers (highly paid for their skills) on their side. The IRS has lawyers that are adequately paid in terms of government pay (area of $115,000) per year but not skilled enough to be in high demand by big corporations.

No matter which side prevails, the other side will appeal and it will keep being appealed until we are playing golf among the clouds.

[iaudit]

Rubicon, my old buddy, I am sure everyone realizes that the Morse family has many lawyers (highly paid for their skills) on their side. The IRS has lawyers that are adequately paid in terms of government pay (area of $115,000) per year but not skilled enough to be in high demand by big corporations.

No matter which side prevails, the other side will appeal and it will keep being appealed until we are playing golf among the clouds.

Unfortunately, Morse is not paying for the lawyers. It is being funded by the central districts which get there money from our amenity fees.

[The Shadow]

About the appeals going on forever, could happen but it looks to me like a settlement happens before an appeal is make.

District Court and Court of
Federal Claims
If your claim is for a refund of any type of tax,
you may take your case to your United States
District Court or to the United States Court of
Federal Claims. Certain types of cases, such as
those involving some employment tax issues or
manufacturers’ excise taxes, can be heard only
by these courts.
Generally, your District Court and the Court of
Federal Claims hear tax cases only after you have
paid the tax and filed a claim for refund with the
IRS. You can get information about procedures
for filing suit in either court by contacting the
Clerk of your District Court or the Clerk of the
Court of Federal Claims.
If you file a formal refund claim with the IRS, and
we haven’t responded to you on your claim within
6 months from the date you filed it, you may file
suit for a refund immediately in your District Court
or the Court of Federal Claims. If we send you a
letter that proposes disallowing or disallows your
claim, you may request Appeals review of the
disallowance. If you wish to file a refund suit,
you must file your suit no later than 2 years
from the date of our notice of claim disallowance
letter.
Note: Appeals review of a disallowed claim
doesn’t extend the 2 year period for filing
suit. However, it may be extended by
mutual agreement.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p5.pdf

[Advogado]

Unfortunately, Morse is not paying for the lawyers. It is being funded by the central districts which get there money from our amenity fees.
You are correct. Do you know what the total amount of the attorney fees, to date, is?

[EdV]

....We will probably be moving to The Village of Heavenly before this is resolved.

I agree with Russ.

Actually, GG I believe you’re right. When this whole thing started a couple of years ago, the IRS agent proposed a settlement option, but it was rejected outright by Morse & company. This was even in the face of the agent saying that if his settlement option wasn’t accepted, other bonds in question would be brought into the fray, which they in fact were.

So it’s clear to me that Morse is ready to ride this out to the end and neither side will budge. With the amount of money involved so large, it will have to go all the way to the US tax court to be settled by legions of tax accountants and attorneys from both sides of fracas, which usually takes years.

And I agree with you and Russ that it’s just not worth worrying about. TV is clearly too successful for that.

[eweissenbach]

Actually, GG I believe you’re right. When this whole thing started a couple of years ago, the IRS agent proposed a settlement option, but it was rejected outright by Morse & company. This was even in the face of the agent saying that if his settlement option wasn’t accepted, other bonds in question would be brought into the fray, which they in fact were.

So it’s clear to me that Morse is ready to ride this out to the end and neither side will budge. With the amount of money involved so large, it will have to go all the way to the US tax court to be settled by legions of tax accountants and attorneys from both sides of fracas, which usually takes years.

And I agree with you and Russ that it’s just not worth worrying about. TV is clearly too successful for that.

Especially if you are viewing it from Stonecrest! :pepper2:

[EdV]

[...Especially if you are viewing it from Stonecrest! :pepper2:

I was directing my comments to my many friends in TV.

[eweissenbach]

I was directing my comments to my many friends in TV.

Just joking around with you Ed :icon_wink:

[EdV]

Just joking around with you Ed :icon_wink:

Good to know Coach, because it’s been getting a little antagonistic around here lately for a next door neighbor who just wants to help with anything that happens around and about The Villages.