What the GOP must do

[Guest]

I think the government is too big butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop calling Government workers parasites on the tax dollars.

I would never support abortion butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop calling Pro-choice people baby killers.

I believe in our higher power butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop stop asking GOD to fix the problems and come up with solutions that will benefit enough Americans to get elected.

What the GOP needs to do to get elected is find a candidate that speaks for Americans and not just a hand full of special interest groups. When we support the likes of Perry, Palin, Bachmann, we are wasting our vote and fragmenting the party into oblivion. But at least the Liberals love it, so some good comes out of it.

[Guest]

All of the above is good, but all that WE THE PEOPLE need to do, is actually make the government follow the Constitution.

[Guest]

I think the government is too big butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop calling Government workers parasites on the tax dollars.

I would never support abortion butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop calling Pro-choice people baby killers.

I believe in our higher power butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop stop asking GOD to fix the problems and come up with solutions that will benefit enough Americans to get elected.

What the GOP needs to do to get elected is find a candidate that speaks for Americans and not just a hand full of special interest groups. When we support the likes of Perry, Palin, Bachmann, we are wasting our vote and fragmenting the party into oblivion. But at least the Liberals love it, so some good comes out of it.

Finally!!!! Someone from the right that makes sense. :icon_wink:

[Guest]

Imagine if God answered some of those - might He say "I sent Jesus and he showed you what to do but you have no charity for the meek!"

[Guest]

Imagine if God answered some of those - might He say "I sent Jesus and he showed you what to do but you have no charity for the meek!"

I am heading for the golf course right now, but will take this thought with me for afternoon posting.

[Guest]

Great posting, Villager II.

[Guest]

Imagine if God answered some of those - might He say "I sent Jesus and he showed you what to do but you have no charity for the meek!"

Just curious to what Jesus would think about aborting babies?:mad:

[Guest]

Just curious to what Jesus would think about aborting babies?:mad:
:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear::ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:

[Guest]

Just curious to what Jesus would think about aborting babies?:mad:

We'll never know.

[Guest]

We'll never know.

Really?; you can't figure this theological question, in keeping with Christianity, out? C'mon, you know the answer.

Well, I'll say it. No one who believes in Jesus as Lord can, in keeping with their faith, be pro-abortion. End of story.

[Guest]

Really?; you can't figure this theological question, in keeping with Christianity, out? C'mon, you know the answer.

Well, I'll say it. No one who believes in Jesus as Lord can, in keeping with their faith, be pro-abortion. End of story.

I have worked with many families who felt like you just stated until their young daughters got pregnant.....and NO I had nothing to do with abortion clinics or Family Planning.

[Guest]

I have worked with many families who felt like you just stated until their young daughters got pregnant.....and NO I had nothing to do with abortion clinics or Family Planning.

I know what you're saying. I have a family member who is an every Sunday going to church lady, and lives a normal Christian life. Yet; she's pro-abortion (she would say pro-choice; but it means the same thing), for all the reason's people have. It does not jive with any serious teaching or practice of a devout Christian to believe in the aborting of a human life.

I don't want to get into a whole social consciousness discussion here; I'm just speaking as to the practice of Christianity.

My departure from strict Christian teaching is in the prevention of conception, as in "birth control". I think the Church needs to rethink that. I don't think Jesus would have much to say to that, either. Pre-conception is not life, in my way of thinking and the Church should step back on that teaching.

[Guest]

I know what you're saying. I have a family member who is an every Sunday going to church lady, and lives a normal Christian life. Yet; she's pro-abortion (she would say pro-choice; but it means the same thing), for all the reason's people have. It does not jive with any serious teaching or practice of a devout Christian to believe in the aborting of a human life.

I don't want to get into a whole social consciousness discussion here; I'm just speaking as to the practice of Christianity.

My departure from strict Christian teaching is in the prevention of conception, as in "birth control". I think the Church needs to rethink that. I don't think Jesus would have much to say to that, either. Pre-conception is not life, in my way of thinking and the Church should step back on that teaching.

Not in my opinion. I am firmly against anyone having an abortion, however, I would vote pro-choice over and over. I say it is far to serious of a decision for one person to make for another. And I especially have a problem with men telling women they are wrong. The law of the United States deems it legal, so abide by the law or change the law, but stay out other peoples business.

[Guest]

I know what you're saying. I have a family member who is an every Sunday going to church lady, and lives a normal Christian life. Yet; she's pro-abortion (she would say pro-choice; but it means the same thing), for all the reason's people have. It does not jive with any serious teaching or practice of a devout Christian to believe in the aborting of a human life.
Pro-choice and pro-abortion are two entirely different beliefs. I am a Christian and I am a citizen of the United States. Our laws respect both the rights of the mother and the rights of the infant. As an American, I must respect these laws providing liberty to others just as I respect those laws that provide freedom of speech.

Christ was very clear when he said, "Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's and render unto God that which is God's." I do not favor abortion, but I also do not have the right to impose my views on others.

[Guest]

I know what you're saying. I have a family member who is an every Sunday going to church lady, and lives a normal Christian life. Yet; she's pro-abortion (she would say pro-choice; but it means the same thing), for all the reason's people have. It does not jive with any serious teaching or practice of a devout Christian to believe in the aborting of a human life.

I don't want to get into a whole social consciousness discussion here; I'm just speaking as to the practice of Christianity.

My departure from strict Christian teaching is in the prevention of conception, as in "birth control". I think the Church needs to rethink that. I don't think Jesus would have much to say to that, either. Pre-conception is not life, in my way of thinking and the Church should step back on that teaching.

I agree with you, but the Church has it's stand on the issue, so it is a sin whether you agree with it or not. I am always fascinated by people's religious beliefs versus what they tell themselves to make the things that they do, which do not jive with the their religions teachings, to make it OK. I think most people do this, regardless of their religion. I do it; you do it and I think most everyone does. For heaven's sake, how many folks break the no premartial sex tenet?
I went to Loyola University and got to know so many priests and nuns and was "shocked" at their private beliefs versus the "party line." I was young and foolish then...LOL. Nothing much shocks me now.

[Guest]

not in my opinion. I am firmly against anyone having an abortion, however, i would vote pro-choice over and over. I say it is far to serious of a decision for one person to make for another. And i especially have a problem with men telling women they are wrong. The law of the united states deems it legal, so abide by the law or change the law, but stay out other peoples business.

amen

[Guest]

Really?; you can't figure this theological question, in keeping with Christianity, out? C'mon, you know the answer.

Well, I'll say it. No one who believes in Jesus as Lord can, in keeping with their faith, be pro-abortion. End of story.

Agree, and anybody who says pro-choice is different then pro-abortion is only fooling themselves. Your either for abortion or against it.

[Guest]

:confused:I hear alot of you saying that you are against abortion and yet you support pro-choice. I am curious to know why you are against abortion...eh? :confused:

[Guest]

:confused:I hear alot of you saying that you are against abortion and yet you support pro-choice. I am curious to know why you are against abortion...eh? :confused:

I am against abortion because I personally would be to weak to handle the mental part after the procedure was completed. Also, I love the process of pregnancy, birth and child rearing through adulthood. I guess that means (for me) that abortion is just wrong. Thats me, but I do not have the right to raise the flag of condemnation on someone else for doing what they believe to be the right thing. We have far too much state and federal government interference in our personal lives right now.

[Guest]

Also, I love the process of pregnancy, birth and child rearing through adulthood. Me too:laugh:


I am against abortion because I personally would be to weak to handle the mental part after the procedure was completed.
You, a mature grown man, close to retirement age, are too weak to handle the mental part after the procedure was completed! I can thoroughly respect that...Me too! I just wonder how much stronger is a young lady who has no idea that there is even going to be a mental part after the procedure is completed. It is not a requirement in most states to inform the woman of these post abortion difficulties. See the Virginia Abortion Law thread, where I recently posted the "after procedure" data as researched by federal agencies. The statistics aren't pretty. Shouldn't we at least pursue legislation to protect them and give them that information as part of their choice?

[Guest]

here ya go...information taken from this link-http://afterabortion.org/post-abortion-review-index/



Over 90 percent are done in freestanding abortion centers. With almost no exceptions, these abortion mills have no supervision, are not state inspected and are not required to have emergency resuscitation equipment. They have inadequate ambulance facilities, often have no RN’s on duty and, most importantly, no qualified surgeon to do the work.

The only requirement to do abortions in almost every state is an MD or a DO degree. You can be a dermatologist and open an abortion facility. You can be a hack, denied surgical or even admitting privileges in any hospital, and still do abortions.

In fact, many abortionists are these kinds of incompetent doctors ~

When confounding factors are eliminated, a picture has emerged of a broad spectrum of problems resulting from abortion. Let us list some:


Maternal Deaths: Compared to childbirth, women who have abortions have an elevated risk of death later from all causes. This persists for at least 8 years. A higher risk of death from suicide and accidents are most prominent. Projected on the national population, this effect may contribute to 2000-5000 additional deaths among women each year.1


Psychiatric Hospitalization: A review of the medical records of 56,741 Medicaid patients revealed that the women who had had abortions were 160 percent more likely to be hospitalized for psychiatric treatment in the first 90 days following abortions, as compared to those who delivered. Rates of such treatment remain significantly higher for at least 4 years.


Clinical Depression: Compared to women who carry their first unintended pregnancy to term, women who abort their first pregnancy are at a significantly higher risk of clinical depression, as measured in an average of 8 years after their first pregnancy.3


Substance Abuse: Compared to women who carry to term, women who abort are 5 times more likely to subsequently abuse drugs or alcohol.4
Outpatient Psychiatric Care: Analysts of California Medicaid records show that women who have abortions will subsequently require significantly more treatment for psychiatric illness through outpatient care.5


Effect on Children: The children of women who have abortions, have less supportive home environments and more behavioral problems than the children of women without a history of abortion. This finding supports the view that abortion may negatively effect bonding with subsequent children and disturb mothering skills. It may not only have such negative effects upon the children, but in very significant ways impact women’s psychological stability.6


Substance Abuse During Subsequent Pregnancies: Compared to women delivering their first pregnancy, women with a history of abortion are five times more likely to use illicit drugs and two times more likely to use alcohol during their next pregnancies. Besides the negative effects on the women, these substances place their unborn children at risk of birth defects, low birth weight and death.7


Long Term Clinical Depression: Analysis of a federally funded longitude study of American women revealed that women who aborted were 65 percent more likely to be at risk of long-term clinical depression, after controlling for age, race, education, marital status, history of divorce, income and prior psychiatric state.8


Placenta Previa: After abortion there’s a 7 to 15-fold increase in placenta previa in subsequent pregnancies. This abnormal development of the placenta is due to damage to the lining of the womb from the abortion. It can be fatal for the women. It also increases the risk of birth defects, stillbirth and excessive bleeding during labor.


Premature Birth: Premature birth is a well-documented after-effect of induced abortion. This is due to damage to the cervix, which results in an increased incident of premature births. Preemies die more often than full term babies and have more frequent disabilities resulting from the premature birth. Such problems obviously have continuing negative emotional impact on the women.


Ectopic Pregnancy: Women have an increased risk of subsequent tubal (ectopic) pregnancies. These can be life threatening; they also reduce future fertility.


Other Post-Abortion Problems: Thirty to fifty percent of such women report experiencing sexual dysfunction such as promiscuity, loss of pleasure from intercourse, increased pain and aversion to sex and men. Women with a history of abortion are significantly more likely to subsequently have shorter relationships and divorce more often.

Women with a prior abortion are four times more likely to have a repeat abortion in the future than those who have no abortion history. Note: 45 to 47 percent of all abortions are now repeat abortions.

The significant increase in breast cancer among women who have had abortions is well known. With a higher rate of Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) infections, they also have a higher risk of cervical cancer. Since smoking is sharply increased among post-abortion women, one could anticipate a possible greater incident of lung cancer.

And finally, one cannot overlook the fact that 10 percent of women suffer immediate complications. These include infection, hemorrhage, cervical injury, blood clots, anesthesia complications, chronic abdominal pain, Rh sensitization, gastro-intestinal disturbances, vomiting, fever and occasionally, endotoxic shock.

Note that while many of the above complications fall under the sequelae included under “Post-Abortion Syndrome,” there is much, much more guilt, distress and heartbreak not directly reflected in the above.

Conclusion
We now have enough definitive studies about women who’ve had abortions to totally refute any attempt by pro-abortion zealots to claim that abortion is safer than childbirth. The above complications are an incomplete list, but space prevents further elaboration.

Our thanks go to Dr. David Reardon, Director of the Elliot Institute, who is the author of most of the studies quoted above. To contact the Elliot Institute for more documentation, visit www.afterabortion.org.

1 Southern Medical Journal 2002
2 Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987 - 1994, M. Gissler At All Acta Obstet. Gynecal. Scandi 76, 1997, p. 651-657, graphs from Elliot Institute.
3 British Medical Journal 2002
4 American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse 2000
5 American Journal of Ortho Psychiatry 2002
6 Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 2002
7 American Journal of Ob-Gyn 2002
8 Medical Science Monitor 2003
[By J.C. Willke, MD, Life Issues Connector, April 2006]

[Guest]

Not in my opinion. I am firmly against anyone having an abortion, however, I would vote pro-choice over and over. I say it is far to serious of a decision for one person to make for another. And I especially have a problem with men telling women they are wrong. The law of the United States deems it legal, so abide by the law or change the law, but stay out other peoples business.

I'm not arguing about that. I know what the law is, but that don't make it Christian. If you want to hedge on your faith and approve the practice of abortion, that's between you and God.

What I'm saying is for a Christian to approve of abortion is hypocritical and against the teachings of your religion. That's just a fact.

If you can face Jesus and tell him "I've supported the right to abort human life"; that's is your prerogative.

[Guest]

Information from this link in reference to Christian Bible-The Word of God http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=211....In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!

In Jeremiah God said to the prophet Jeremiah, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother's womb God gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the "fetal tissue" she aborted would have been a real person named Jeremiah; a mighty prophet of God and the gift of God's voice to the nations, though she would never have known.

The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14

[Guest]

Bravo Katzpajamas.... Your response was very detailed and well reasoned out. I am against abortion because it lends itself for allowing people to avoid their responsibility. I also believe it is wrong because if forces taking power prfer pragmatism over ethical application of our laws they will have no problem making a logical progression from abortion to claiming they can alleviate the suffering of people with diabilities and continue on to undesirables, etc. It is simply a dangerous mind set. I believe we should spend our effort and our resources on working for more civil and human oriented solutions such as adoption.

I do not wish to get political but look closley at what % of the women who have abortions have more than one and who they are.

I believe pro choice should mean that a woman has the choice of getting pregnant or not getting pregnant

[Guest]

Bravo Katzpajamas.... Your response was very detailed and well reasoned out. I am against abortion because it lends itself for allowing people to avoid their responsibility. I also believe it is wrong because if forces taking power prfer pragmatism over ethical application of our laws they will have no problem making a logical progression from abortion to claiming they can alleviate the suffering of people with diabilities and continue on to undesirables, etc. It is simply a dangerous mind set. I believe we should spend our effort and our resources on working for more civil and human oriented solutions such as adoption.

I do not wish to get political but look closley at what % of the women who have abortions have more than one and who they are.

I believe pro choice should mean that a woman has the choice of getting pregnant or not getting pregnant

:agree::agree::agree:
WOW rubicon. You are SPOT ON! I recently read "The Pivot of Civilization" by Margaret Sanger (founder of Planned Parenthood) She strongly advocated the sterilization of the less desireable "feeble minded" and ethnic cleansing to perfect our society. It's pretty gruesome stuff that she wrote about and I personally equate most of it with the views of Hitler. Link to eBook-The Pivot of Civilization by Margaret Sanger http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1689/1689-h/1689-h.htm#2HCH0009

[Guest]

Really?; you can't figure this theological question, in keeping with Christianity, out? C'mon, you know the answer.

Well, I'll say it. No one who believes in Jesus as Lord can, in keeping with their faith, be pro-abortion. End of story.

Thus sayeth Richie. :cus:

[Guest]

Thus sayeth Richie. :cus:

What does that mean? Is this some form of Flaming? Cannot you write a complete sentence that has some form of meaning? All you do is write remarks and never contribute anything coherent. You must be proud.:ohdear:
Are you on that train that VillageII talks about all the time?

[Guest]

Thus sayeth Richie. :cus:

Witty comeback.

Do you take issue with what I've said. Feel free to dispute what I said and we can discuss it.

Or continue to post nonsense. It only demeans one person, and that isn't me.

[Guest]

What does that mean? Is this some form of Flaming? Cannot you write a complete sentence that has some form of meaning? All you do is write remarks and never contribute anything coherent. You must be proud.:ohdear:
Are you on that train that VillageII talks about all the time?

The midnight train follows the rain....we all wear our own thorny crown. :cus:

[Guest]

I have not seen any statements from the pro-life posters here about abortion in the case of rape or incest. Should that woman (or even a young girl) be forced to give birth to a child spawned by rape or incest? Before jumping on that answer, how would you react personally if the rape or incest victim was your wife, daughter, or grand-daughter?

[Guest]

The midnight train follows the rain....we all wear our own thorny crown. :cus:

Wow, what a mind. You must have a book of quotes by your side.

[Guest]

I have not seen any statements from the pro-life posters here about abortion in the case of rape or incest. Should that woman (or even a young girl) be forced to give birth to a child spawned by rape or incest? Before jumping on that answer, how would you react personally if the rape or incest victim was your wife, daughter, or grand-daughter?

Again let me try to explain Buggy. We're talking Christian theology. We're discussing Christian teachings, their faith and their covenants with God.

Do you believe in the teachings, the word of Jesus Christ or not? If not, what makes you Christian?

[Guest]

Really?; you can't figure this theological question, in keeping with Christianity, out? C'mon, you know the answer.

Well, I'll say it. No one who believes in Jesus as Lord can, in keeping with their faith, be pro-abortion. End of story.

I am stating no opinion here on abortion. I personally do not like abortion but I can see where someone might consider it necessary.

However, what would Jesus do? Jesus was a Jew. He grew up as a Jew. If he was a Talmud thumping Jew, he probably would have called for the death of the abortionist be it a midwife or the mother. Who ever caused the death of the fetus. An eye for an eye.

Would this justify running around killing abortion practitioners? The women who request abortions? It is God's law perhaps we should let God enforce it.

I firmly believe that we should discourage abortion. But in the end I think anyone who has an abortion will have to stand before their God in final judgment.

Just a thought

[Guest]

I am stating no opinion here on abortion. I personally do not like abortion but I can see where someone might consider it necessary.

However, what would Jesus do? Jesus was a Jew. He grew up as a Jew. If he was a Talmud thumping Jew, he probably would have called for the death of the abortionist be it a midwife or the mother. Who ever caused the death of the fetus. An eye for an eye.

Would this justify running around killing abortion practitioners? The women who request abortions? It is God's law perhaps we should let God enforce it.

I firmly believe that we should discourage abortion. But in the end I think anyone who has an abortion will have to stand before their God in final judgment.Just a thought


Superior factual posts by Katzpajamma. I can surely respect the post by Richielion showing devout spiritual loyalty and faith. Now I would love to see what Katz has to say about this post since I fall into this type of thinking. If I am wrong, put me on the right path. CMANN has pitted Old Testament against New Testament and hits my way of thinking right in the bullseye. If I am wrong in my thinking, I believe the answer is in this very post, I just can't break it down. Please give a response to CMANN Katz.

[Guest]

Wow, what a mind. You must have a book of quotes by your side. I bet you think that we are impressed by your quotations. You would probably lose.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. :cus:

[Guest]

Rape and Incest-In the case of rape, I am assuming that the rapist would not be sticking around to raise the child nor care for the needs of the mother. Jesus had this to say ...James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. It is our responsibility to speak for and protect these little living souls per the directive of our Savior.

Killing of the abortionist?-Jesus, who we Christians believe to be God in the flesh, said in Exodus 20:13 "You shall nor murder." I think that we already have laws in this country addressing the crime of murder. Life begins at conception as I have addessed in previous threads, the Virginia abortion law thread comes to mind. In Ohio if you take a life, you quite possible could find yourself on death row. It is a matter that must be handled by enforcers of our laws.

[Guest]

If I understand Katz, she says that a 12 year girl rape victim and gets pregnant - should be forced to give birth. Quoting some scripture does not do that 12 year old girl any good, Katz. Shouldn't it be up to each person to do as they feel right?

Richie did not answer my question but tried turning the table by asking me my religious viewpoint. Sorry, Richie, that did not work. Will you answer my question or just decline - which is your right to do, of course.

[Guest]

If I understand Katz, she says that a 12 year girl rape victim and gets pregnant - should be forced to give birth. Quoting some scripture does not do that 12 year old girl any good, Katz. Shouldn't it be up to each person to do as they feel right?

Richie did not answer my question but tried turning the table by asking me my religious viewpoint. Sorry, Richie, that did not work. Will you answer my question or just decline - which is your right to do, of course.

I think you meant to quote (or misquote) the words of Jesus not Katz...

[Guest]

The forgotten victims of rape are also children....http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nforgotten.htm

[Guest]

Bravo Katzpajamas.... Your response was very detailed and well reasoned out. I am against abortion because it lends itself for allowing people to avoid their responsibility. I also believe it is wrong because if forces taking power prfer pragmatism over ethical application of our laws they will have no problem making a logical progression from abortion to claiming they can alleviate the suffering of people with diabilities and continue on to undesirables, etc. It is simply a dangerous mind set. I believe we should spend our effort and our resources on working for more civil and human oriented solutions such as adoption.

I do not wish to get political but look closley at what % of the women who have abortions have more than one and who they are.

I believe pro choice should mean that a woman has the choice of getting pregnant or not getting pregnant

Tell that to the victims of rape...like they had a choice.

[Guest]

ladydoc ~ What choice do the unborn children who are the result of rape or incest? Is any of it their fault either? In what venue do two wrongs make a right? The forgotten victims of rape are also children....http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nforgotten.htm

[Guest]

I have been fascinated reading some of your answers. All of us are entitled to our opinions. We each have to answer to our god....we each need to make our own decisions BUT I have NO right to make a decision about a woman's right to choice. Neither do you, in my opinion...the one I have a right to have.

Here is my basic confusion in all of this. Given the demographics of TV, I am going to assume that the majority of responders are republicans. If this is not a valid assumption, then I apologize. Actually I have two questions...1) why does it seem that your interest in having these unwanted children born ENDS when they are born and 2) are you willing to pony up with increased taxes and social programs to care for all of these children? Will you adopt one?

I think not; not given all that I have read in other posts. A family that can not care for another baby is not going to magically have the resources once the child is born. The other children in the family will have to do with even less. Every child deserves basic things...like food and a clean place to live. Maybe parents who care about their development and education. Personally I feel that if you are not willing to help with the child after its birth then you have no right to insist it be born.

I don't like the idea of abortion; no one likes the IDEA, but reality is reality. I will not insist that a 12 year old incest victim have a baby....

[Guest]

If I understand Katz, she says that a 12 year girl rape victim and gets pregnant - should be forced to give birth. Quoting some scripture does not do that 12 year old girl any good, Katz. Shouldn't it be up to each person to do as they feel right?

Richie did not answer my question but tried turning the table by asking me my religious viewpoint. Sorry, Richie, that did not work. Will you answer my question or just decline - which is your right to do, of course.

It's not a hard question and I believe I made myself clear. By law the hypothetical 12 year old girl has the right to abort the baby forced on her by extreme violence of body and spirit. If such a decision was made, every true Christian would pray for that girl and the destroyed new life.

But your are at odds with your faith in Christ, if in your heart you support the termination of that innocent life. It's a terrible thing that happened to that hypothetical 12 year old girl, but for a Christian of faith, is it any more terrible that the death of the innocent life?

But as the vast majority of abortions (maybe 96% of them are performed for birth control reasons according to the World Health Organization) we have more than the "12 year old" to ponder when it comes to abortion.

[Guest]

Actually I have two questions...1) why does it seem that your interest in having these unwanted children born ENDS when they are born and 2) are you willing to pony up with increased taxes and social programs to care for all of these children? Will you adopt one?

I think not; not given all that I have read in other posts. A family that can not care for another baby is not going to magically have the resources once the child is born. The other children in the family will have to do with even less. Every child deserves basic things...like food and a clean place to live. Maybe parents who care about their development and education. Personally I feel that if you are not willing to help with the child after its birth then you have no right to insist it be born.

I don't like the idea of abortion; no one likes the IDEA, but reality is reality. I will not insist that a 12 year old incest victim have a baby....

1-You assume that my interest ENDS when the "unwanted" child is born- WRONG

2-I not only pony up the tax money, but I support numerous groups that assist unwed mothers, victims of rape and incest, pregnancy centers in my area. AND I have an adopted child, and I support others who are desperate to have a child thru adoption since they cannot concieve and those who just love children with their giant sized hearts.

and I will add a number 3-reality is reality...It is always easier to remove a problem than to dig deep into your heart and resolve it in a loving miraculous way. I choose LOVE. Love conquers all!

Therefore, when you say "I think not", you thought wrong.

[Guest]

Ladydoc has an excellent post.

[Guest]

1-You assume that my interest ENDS when the "unwanted" child is born- WRONG

2-I not only pony up the tax money, but I support numerous groups that assist unwed mothers, victims of rape and incest, pregnancy centers in my area. AND I have an adopted child, and I support others who are desperate to have a child thru adoption since they cannot concieve and those who just love children with their giant sized hearts.

and I will add a number 3-reality is reality...It is always easier to remove a problem than to dig deep into your heart and resolve it in a loving miraculous way. I choose LOVE. Love conquers all!

Therefore, when you say "I think not", you thought wrong.

You are a wonderful example of how it should be, but you KNOW you are the exception. Unfortunately love does not conquer all....never has. I wish it did. If it did, most of my family would not have died in the ovens in Germany.

[Guest]

It's not a hard question and I believe I made myself clear. By law the hypothetical 12 year old girl has the right to abort the baby forced on her by extreme violence of body and spirit. If such a decision was made, every true Christian would pray for that girl and the destroyed new life.

But your are at odds with your faith in Christ, if in your heart you support the termination of that innocent life. It's a terrible thing that happened to that hypothetical 12 year old girl, but for a Christian of faith, is it any more terrible that the death of the innocent life?

But as the vast majority of abortions (maybe 96% of them are performed for birth control reasons according to the World Health Organization) we have more than the "12 year old" to ponder when it comes to abortion.

I guess this boils down to at what point you believe a cluster of cells has a soul....

[Guest]

You are a wonderful example of how it should be, but you KNOW you are the exception. Unfortunately love does not conquer all....never has. I wish it did. If it did, most of my family would not have died in the ovens in Germany.


I am truly sorry for what Nazi Germany did to your family and many others.
I do not KNOW myself to be the exception- there is a gigantic silent majority of which you apparently know anything about.
And YES, LOVE does conquer all. Hundreds of Christians died at the hands of the Nazi's because they chose to love and show love to their Jewish neighbors and friends. One of the results of which were getting many Jewish people, especially children smuggled to safe countries.
ALSO Millions of young men gave their lives as the ultimate sacrifice in WWII to stop the advance of the Third Reich. The same Third Reich that had at it's very beginnings legal and often forced abortion.

[Guest]

I guess this boils down to at what point you believe a cluster of cells has a soul....

A cluster of cells that are alive and growing at a phenomenal rate...
We protect the endangered species of plants and animals that are around us. They are alive, but do they have souls?

[Guest]

I am truly sorry for what Nazi Germany did to your family and many others.
I do not KNOW myself to be the exception- there is a gigantic silent majority of which you apparently know anything about.
And YES, LOVE does conquer all. Hundreds of Christians died at the hands of the Nazi's because they chose to love and show love to their Jewish neighbors and friends. One of the results of which were getting many Jewish people, especially children smuggled to safe countries.
ALSO Millions of young men gave their lives as the ultimate sacrifice in WWII to stop the advance of the Third Reich. The same Third Reich that had at it's very beginnings legal and often forced abortion.

You sound like a very nice lady (?); we just happen to be poles apart in our beliefs. Thank god we are in America, where this is OK and we can both say what we believe.

[Guest]

I am truly sorry for what Nazi Germany did to your family and many others.
I do not KNOW myself to be the exception- there is a gigantic silent majority of which you apparently know anything about.
And YES, LOVE does conquer all. Hundreds of Christians died at the hands of the Nazi's because they chose to love and show love to their Jewish neighbors and friends. One of the results of which were getting many Jewish people, especially children smuggled to safe countries.
ALSO Millions of young men gave their lives as the ultimate sacrifice in WWII to stop the advance of the Third Reich. The same Third Reich that had at it's very beginnings legal and often forced abortion.


:mademyday:

[Guest]

You sound like a very nice lady (?); we just happen to be poles apart in our beliefs. Thank god we are in America, where this is OK and we can both say what we believe.
Thank You, and I also thank God we are in America where WE can say what we believe. It will be even more free when the unborn babies are protected enough to be able to someday say what they believe too:icon_wink:

[Guest]

:mademyday:

I am glad! By the way, did you or anyone else also hear that swishing sound as once again the subject being discussed gets swept under the rug?

[Guest]

I am glad! By the way, did you or anyone else also hear that swishing sound as once again the subject being discussed gets swept under the rug?

I am not sweeping it under the rug...I am acknowledging that neither of us can say anything to influence what the other believes. So why prolong the discussion? I know your position. You know mine.

[Guest]

I am not sweeping it under the rug...I am acknowledging that neither of us can say anything to influence what the other believes. So why prolong the discussion? I know your position. You know mine.
There you go, assuming again. If the discussion ends we will never know if either of us can influence what the other believes. Closed dialogs are often the last thing that happens before war breaks out.

[Guest]

There you go, assuming again. If the discussion ends we will never know if either of us can influence what the other believes. Closed dialogs are often the last thing that happens before war breaks out.

Yea, and closed discussions is when someone puts another on the ignore list.:jester:

[Guest]

There you go, assuming again. If the discussion ends we will never know if either of us can influence what the other believes. Closed dialogs are often the last thing that happens before war breaks out.

I know nothing you can say will change my mind and you really believe there is anything I could say to change yours? Come on...be honest. I think you want me to change my position. Not going to happen. I have heard it all for more then 30 years. Beliefs based in religion are very very difficult to change. I also learned a long time ago not to try to discuss such things with these folks. Maybe I did not learn it well enough since I engaged in a discussion with you. War breaking out? I am not going to war with you....lol.

Did you also happen to notice that you were the ONLY one to address the issue I brought up, which is what are you going to do to support these unwanted babies?

[Guest]

I know nothing you can say will change my mind and you really believe there is anything I could say to change yours? Come on...be honest. I think you want me to change my position. Not going to happen. I have heard it all for more then 30 years. Beliefs based in religion are very very difficult to change. I also learned a long time ago not to try to discuss such things with these folks. Maybe I did not learn it well enough since I engaged in a discussion with you. War breaking out? I am not going to war with you....lol.

Did you also happen to notice that you were the ONLY one to address the issue I brought up, which is what are you going to do to support these unwanted babies?

OH, so we haven't even gotten to the scientific evidence!...Pretty busy with some family things today, but will definitely try to address that asap! :laugh:

[Guest]

~http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/f...velopment.html


~(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology)-life-"the state or quality that distinguishes living beings or organisms from dead ones and from inorganic matter, characterized chiefly by metabolism, growth, and the ability to reproduce and respond to stimuli." You might also consider one of the simple definitions in Webster's-life:c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction .
(Pretty sure that an unborn baby has us both beat on its rate of growth alone.)

~Abortion doctor faces 8 counts of murder...http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...nts-of-murder/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...701801_pf.html
http://afterabortion.org/2005/womens...ion-new-study/

Mom bleeds to death after abortion perforates her uterus...http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2009/...-abortion.html

It remains, that two wrongs do not make one right.


~Link to the documented scientific data of the horrific after effects on the woman who has chosen abortion...http://afterabortion.org/post-abortion-review-index/

[Guest]

Ladydoc,

It is no use to argue with Katz - as you can see. I tried telling her one time that I was not going to change my mind as a Pro-Choice person and I knew she would not change her mind and that should end it. Katz did not want to let it go and as you can see, she will just keep on going even though she should know our minds will not change from being Pro-Choice.

[Guest]

I am so happy that my mother was anti-abortion.:spoken:

[Guest]

I guess this boils down to at what point you believe a cluster of cells has a soul....

Dehumanizing life at it's beginnings is very convenient. If you are Christian, you have no question as to when life begins.

[Guest]

Ok, I've read most (though nto *all*) of this.. I might as well chime in here.

1) Saying that pro-choice = pro-abortion by fiat declaration borders on silly. It's an attempt to control the narrative. What *some* fail to understand is that pro-choice, by it's most common definition means allowing the woman the CHOICE - whether it's birth, adoption or abortion. My thoughts on the subject is that abortion is the symptom, not the disease. Unwanted pregnancies are the disease. Stop the pregnancies in the first place and you've virtually solved the abortion problem - with VERY few exceptions.

2) The whole "Jesus" thing and how He'd feel about abortions.

I apologize in advance for the tone I'm about to be taking.

How *bleeping* convenient it is for some cherry-picking Christians to rail against abortions and then turn around and vote for the same GOP/Tea Party conservatives who's first course of action for ANYTHING is to cut spending on the poor while protecting tax breaks for corporations!

I was raised a Catholic and, believe you me, they were very against abortions - but they were also out there constantly making efforts for the poor. Soup kitchens, food pantries, relief centers - you name it. Heck, if it hadn't been for their disgusting responses to the pedophile priest scandals I might still be supportive of them.

Ok, got that bit of a rant out of my system for now.

I say this from the point of view of someone who WAS adopted. I also have two daughters. In addition I was there for both a miscarriage and an abortion. I was NOT happy with that latter decision but when you combine birth control failure with not being able to afford another kid, you have a rough time coming. Now, on top of that, add the fact that you both just went in for full body x-rays (started chiropractic theraphy and had no idea that my wife was just days pregnant) and what the doctors told us was NOT good.

I've said it before, and I'll be saying it again - get rid of unwanted pregnancies and you get rid of abortion.

[Guest]

Ladydoc,

It is no use to argue with Katz - as you can see. I tried telling her one time that I was not going to change my mind as a Pro-Choice person and I knew she would not change her mind and that should end it. Katz did not want to let it go and as you can see, she will just keep on going even though she should know our minds will not change from being Pro-Choice.

I know this was directed at Katz, but I'm not trying to change your mind, per se; as much as I'm trying to get you to access your belief in it's relation to your own faith if you call yourself Christian.

You can debate me all you want. I want you to picture yourself debating this issue with Jesus Christ. If you call yourself Christian, you should be able to do this.

(All the "you's" above are collective "you's; I'm not picking on you Buggy; just the subject matter at hand)

[Guest]

I guess this boils down to at what point you believe a cluster of cells has a soul....

If we are to beleive: The soul exists prior to conception and after death.

Refrencing the soul is a strawman argument. IMHO

[Guest]

Ok, I've read most (though nto *all*) of this.. I might as well chime in here.

1) Saying that pro-choice = pro-abortion by fiat declaration borders on silly. It's an attempt to control the narrative. What *some* fail to understand is that pro-choice, by it's most common definition means allowing the woman the CHOICE - whether it's birth, adoption or abortion. My thoughts on the subject is that abortion is the symptom, not the disease. Unwanted pregnancies are the disease. Stop the pregnancies in the first place and you've virtually solved the abortion problem - with VERY few exceptions.

2) The whole "Jesus" thing and how He'd feel about abortions.

I apologize in advance for the tone I'm about to be taking.

How *bleeping* convenient it is for some cherry-picking Christians to rail against abortions and then turn around and vote for the same GOP/Tea Party conservatives who's first course of action for ANYTHING is to cut spending on the poor while protecting tax breaks for corporations!

I was raised a Catholic and, believe you me, they were very against abortions - but they were also out there constantly making efforts for the poor. Soup kitchens, food pantries, relief centers - you name it. Heck, if it hadn't been for their disgusting responses to the pedophile priest scandals I might still be supportive of them.

Ok, got that bit of a rant out of my system for now.

I say this from the point of view of someone who WAS adopted. I also have two daughters. In addition I was there for both a miscarriage and an abortion. I was NOT happy with that latter decision but when you combine birth control failure with not being able to afford another kid, you have a rough time coming. Now, on top of that, add the fact that you both just went in for full body x-rays (started chiropractic theraphy and had no idea that my wife was just days pregnant) and what the doctors told us was NOT good.

I've said it before, and I'll be saying it again - get rid of unwanted pregnancies and you get rid of abortion.

You said this better then I did. Thank you! My first comment was about being against abortions but not being willing to pony up to the plate with funding, etc. You did word it better then I did...

[Guest]

Ok, I've read most (though nto *all*) of this.. I might as well chime in here.

1) Saying that pro-choice = pro-abortion by fiat declaration borders on silly. It's an attempt to control the narrative. What *some* fail to understand is that pro-choice, by it's most common definition means allowing the woman the CHOICE - whether it's birth, adoption or abortion. My thoughts on the subject is that abortion is the symptom, not the disease. Unwanted pregnancies are the disease. Stop the pregnancies in the first place and you've virtually solved the abortion problem - with VERY few exceptions.

2) The whole "Jesus" thing and how He'd feel about abortions.

I apologize in advance for the tone I'm about to be taking.

How *bleeping* convenient it is for some cherry-picking Christians to rail against abortions and then turn around and vote for the same GOP/Tea Party conservatives who's first course of action for ANYTHING is to cut spending on the poor while protecting tax breaks for corporations!

I was raised a Catholic and, believe you me, they were very against abortions - but they were also out there constantly making efforts for the poor. Soup kitchens, food pantries, relief centers - you name it. Heck, if it hadn't been for their disgusting responses to the pedophile priest scandals I might still be supportive of them.

Ok, got that bit of a rant out of my system for now.

I say this from the point of view of someone who WAS adopted. I also have two daughters. In addition I was there for both a miscarriage and an abortion. I was NOT happy with that latter decision but when you combine birth control failure with not being able to afford another kid, you have a rough time coming. Now, on top of that, add the fact that you both just went in for full body x-rays (started chiropractic theraphy and had no idea that my wife was just days pregnant) and what the doctors told us was NOT good.

I've said it before, and I'll be saying it again - get rid of unwanted pregnancies and you get rid of abortion.

:bigbow:
Now theres a perfect answer, a question and solution all in one.
Thanks, great post.

[Guest]

... My thoughts on the subject is that abortion is the symptom, not the disease. Unwanted pregnancies are the disease. Stop the pregnancies in the first place and you've virtually solved the abortion problem - with VERY few exceptions.


I've said it before, and I'll be saying it again - get rid of unwanted pregnancies and you get rid of abortion.


I couldn't agree more djplong! I addressed teaching abstinence, if not in this thread, then another over this weekend. It was shot down by the arguement that they are going to have sex anyway so teach birth control and put condoms on bananas. I think that you have already expressed that birth control can fail and bring you to a rather difficult decision. I too can only say that half of my brood were "planned pregnancies", but I wouldn't change a thing!

[Guest]

Seems to me that to every argument there are two sides. In this case one side is for abortion and one side is against. If you pick up a clever slogan like pro-choice, that's just a cop-out. (wow been awhile since I heard that expression "cop-out")

Gives you the leeway to do whatever you want and the heck with the consequences. I was there before they came up with the Pro-Choice slogan.

It is either right or wrong to abort babies.

[Guest]

Richie,

As I have said more than a few times before, the posters on here that are no Pro-Choice have their beliefs and I, being a Pro-Choice advocate, have my beliefs. Neither will change the other's mind.

You say I can debate you all I want. I don't want to. My beliefs are mine. My religious views are mine. Can we just put this aside and agree that we disagree on this immovable issue for both of us. Thanks.

[Guest]

...oh...just checking to see if RichieLion got an answer yet...:laugh:

[Guest]

KatzPajamma: I love and respect your tenasity and golden heart on this issue.

RichieLion: I feel ya brother. You have added a third catagory (Christian Choice) to this issue.

Ladydoc: I have to say that you have great points and stated them very clear.

I believe personaly I would support KatzPajamma first. (PRO-Life)
I believe as a Methodist that Richielion is most accurate.(PRO-Christian)
I believe as a US Citizen, I must Vote Pro-Choice.

[Guest]

I know this was directed at Katz, but I'm not trying to change your mind, per se; as much as I'm trying to get you to access your belief in it's relation to your own faith if you call yourself Christian.

You can debate me all you want. I want you to picture yourself debating this issue with Jesus Christ. If you call yourself Christian, you should be able to do this.

(All the "you's" above are collective "you's; I'm not picking on you Buggy; just the subject matter at hand)

I was wondering why just about the only post of mine you have not responded to is the one where we were talking about following tenets of faith and you said you believed birth control was ok and implied you used it. I pointed out that although I agree with you, the Church says that is a no-no. My point was that a sin is a sin. Just because you don't like it and don't follow it does not give you a pass. So what are you going to say to Jesus about that one? That it is not as big a sin as abortion, so it's no big deal?
You are under no obligation to respond to anything I say, just wondering why THIS one was unanswered. Don't really need to answer it if you don't want to. But I just have to parrot you for a second REJECTED!!

[Guest]

I was wondering why just about the only post of mine you have not responded to is the one where we were talking about following tenets of faith and you said you believed birth control was ok and implied you used it. I pointed out that although I agree with you, the Church says that is a no-no. My point was that a sin is a sin. Just because you don't like it and don't follow it does not give you a pass. So what are you going to say to Jesus about that one? That it is not as big a sin as abortion, so it's no big deal?
You are under no obligation to respond to anything I say, just wondering why THIS one was unanswered. Don't really need to answer it if you don't want to. But I just have to parrot you for a second REJECTED!!

Read every version of every bible you can find and send me a verse where Jesus Christ rejected birth control. It doesn't exist Ladydoc. Birth control mandates were set in place by fallible human beings, not the son of God.

The words of Jesus Christ plainly reveal his view of the unborn child, though. We need no one to interpret those words.

There's no need to get in my face during this discussion. I was not uncivil to anyone in the thread.

I can see by your reference that you read my posts in other threads, so thanks for holding onto my words. I appreciate it.

[Guest]

Read every version of every bible you can find and send me a verse where Jesus Christ rejected birth control. It doesn't exist Ladydoc. Birth control mandates were set in place by fallible human beings, not the son of God.

The words of Jesus Christ plainly reveal his view of the unborn child, though. We need no one to interpret those words.

There's no need to get in my face during this discussion. I was not uncivil to anyone in the thread.

I can see by your reference that you read my posts in other threads, so thanks for holding onto my words. I appreciate it.

She got into my face with a PM and when I responded, she put me on her ignore list. Go figure, huh?

To quote Al Gore (I love to quote Al Gore):
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.":laugh:

[Guest]

Read every version of every bible you can find and send me a verse where Jesus Christ rejected birth control. It doesn't exist Ladydoc. Birth control mandates were set in place by fallible human beings, not the son of God.

The words of Jesus Christ plainly reveal his view of the unborn child, though. We need no one to interpret those words.

There's no need to get in my face during this discussion. I was not uncivil to anyone in the thread.

I can see by your reference that you read my posts in other threads, so thanks for holding onto my words. I appreciate it.

No, you were never uncivil. So, you are not accepting of the Church's position on birth control. Based on what did the church come up with that "ruling" then. The papacy's interpretation is wrong? Interesting. I went to Loyola University and had many priests and nuns as friends. As I said in an earlier post, their private positions on many issues were not according to party line...they were much more humanistic!

I do read your posts. I agree with very little that you say, but you do state your beliefs clearly and say what they are based on. You are not rabid or hateful in your posts. Sometimes a little sarcastic, but never mean. That is a plus.

[Guest]

No, you were never uncivil. So, you are not accepting of the Church's position on birth control. Based on what did the church come up with that "ruling" then. The papacy's interpretation is wrong? Interesting. I went to Loyola University and had many priests and nuns as friends. As I said in an earlier post, their private positions on many issues were not according to party line...they were much more humanistic!

I do read your posts. I agree with very little that you say, but you do state your beliefs clearly and say what they are based on. You are not rabid or hateful in your posts. Sometimes a little sarcastic, but never mean. That is a plus.

Thank you for your candor. I'm not trying to change the world with my posts on this thread. I'm really just attempting to get those who believe themselves to be devout Christians to examine this belief, and consider that they are at perilous odds to their faith if they support the practice of abortion.

It's merely a question I'm asking you to ponder for yourself. I have my own transgressions to contemplate.

[Guest]

Remember Richie, liberals are wary of people who put God before government.

Here's another Al Gore Quote. ( I love to quote AlGore)

"Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

[Guest]

Remember Richie, liberals are wary of people who put God before government.

Here's another Al Gore Quote. ( I love to quote AlGore)

"Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

The government IS like God to some people.

OK, I'll join in the Al Gore quotes. here's one I like.....

"We are ready for an unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

[Guest]

Since Village Golfer and RichieLion opened the door on dumb quotes, here is one, also:

"But obviously, we've got to stand with our North Korean allies." --Sarah Palin, after being asked how she would handle the current hostilities between the two Koreas, interview on Glenn Beck's radio show, Nov. 24, 2010

We could go on all night with gaffes from all sides. Why bother? Someone will bring up 57 states, someone will bring up being physically close to Russia, death panels, swine flu, and it just goes on to no end. Let's quit.

I am sure Village Golfer will want to get one last one in - like he always does.

[Guest]

Since Village Golfer and RichieLion opened the door on dumb quotes, here is one, also:

"But obviously, we've got to stand with our North Korean allies." --Sarah Palin, after being asked how she would handle the current hostilities between the two Koreas, interview on Glenn Beck's radio show, Nov. 24, 2010

We could go on all night with gaffes from all sides. Why bother? Someone will bring up 57 states, someone will bring up being physically close to Russia, death panels, swine flu, and it just goes on to no end. Let's quit.

I am sure Village Golfer will want to get one last one in - like he always does.

It's the humor in Al's quotes. Sarah had a brain fart, OK...I get it. But Al's is a mangling of the language that is just priceless funny. In a funny kind of Yogi Berra way. You're getting very bitter lately, my friend. Where's that sense of humor?

[Guest]

Dairy Farm Expert in a Day
Milwaukee, WI - "I'm very familiar with the importance of dairy farming in Wisconsin. I've spent the night on a dairy farm here in Wisconsin. If I'm entrusted with the presidency, you'll have someone who is very familiar with what the Wisconsin dairy industry is all about."


I wonder if there is another joke in there about the Farmer's Daughter? LOL

[Guest]

"The future will be better tomorrow." -- Vice President Al Gore

[Guest]

During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Vice President AlGore.

[Guest]

Villager 2...My, I have to agree with everything you said and if the Republicans came up with a middle of the road candidate they would win this election hands down..Unfortunately the tea party has hijacked it temporarily so guess what you get?..Abortion, Deeply personal and has no role in politics..separation of church and state..Who are we to tell a person how or what they can do to their own bodies..Talk about loss of freedoms...Hi guys...I see the same three on this forum too..They certainly are opinionated and outspoken,aren't they?

[Guest]

it seems the repubs get elected promising jobs(where are they?) and just always go back to their tried and true nonsense abortion,guns,welfare,and add the tea party to it so add small gov't,attacks on social security,medicare and medicaid and its no wonder they can't get Americans working.

[Guest]

it seems the repubs get elected promising jobs(where are they?) and just always go back to their tried and true nonsense abortion,guns,welfare,and add the tea party to it so add small gov't,attacks on social security,medicare and medicaid and its no wonder they can't get Americans working.


Liberals over reliance on mockery rather than logical argument?

Liberals are almost always more aggressive then conservatives here, as liberals insist on the last word, insist on continuing debate long after it has become tiresome, and repeat complaints after they have been rejected. That could represent an attempt to waste an opponent's time or a refusal to recognize that there are legitimate reasons to reject viewpoints.

[Guest]

Villager 2...My, I have to agree with everything you said and if the Republicans came up with a middle of the road candidate they would win this election hands down..Unfortunately the tea party has hijacked it temporarily so guess what you get?..Abortion, Deeply personal and has no role in politics..separation of church and state..Who are we to tell a person how or what they can do to their own bodies..Talk about loss of freedoms...Hi guys...I see the same three on this forum too..They certainly are opinionated and outspoken,aren't they?

???????????????????

[Guest]

Villager 2...My, I have to agree with everything you said and if the Republicans came up with a middle of the road candidate they would win this election hands down..Unfortunately the tea party has hijacked it temporarily so guess what you get?..Abortion, Deeply personal and has no role in politics..separation of church and state..Who are we to tell a person how or what they can do to their own bodies..Talk about loss of freedoms...Hi guys...I see the same three on this forum too..They certainly are opinionated and outspoken,aren't they?

Please, I beg of you. It is not a weakness to seek help. We Villagers pride ourselves in giving aid where it is needed. Help is just a phone call away. I am a war veteran, I know about PTSD.

In the meantime, just relax, and take a few deep breaths and say, "Obama must go" "Obama must go" "Obama must go"

Feel better now?:a040::a040:

[Guest]

Village Golfer, I see you continue with personal attacks, not once adding a rebuttal to any questions brought forward...Stick to the tea party talking points..."Obama Must GO, No matter how much damage we have to do to the country in the process"...How's that 401 k doiin since Walsh and his corrupt buddies started that debt ceiling fiasco?...The man won't even pay the money to feed his own kids and he stands for what's "right" in America..Give me a break..

[Guest]

Village Golfer, I see you continue with personal attacks, not once adding a rebuttal to any questions brought forward...Stick to the tea party talking points..."Obama Must GO, No matter how much damage we have to do to the country in the process"...How's that 401 k doiin since Walsh and his corrupt buddies started that debt ceiling fiasco?...The man won't even pay the money to feed his own kids and he stands for what's "right" in America..Give me a break..

It's not too late. Obama has done his damage. We can set us on the right path if we vote him out in 2012.

[Guest]

Not with the opposition the republicans are putting out there now..How will that straighten out the tea party farrrrr right wingers? the only thing that will help them is to be put out to pasture...All incumbents out!!!

[Guest]

Not with the opposition the republicans are putting out there now..How will that straighten out the tea party farrrrr right wingers? the only thing that will help them is to be put out to pasture...All incumbents out!!!

Why do you call my friends and neighbors farrrr right wingers? Are you one of those left-wing moonbats that I have been hearing about?

PLease tell us more about the Tea Partiers.

[Guest]

Village Golfer,I call you that because it's soooo true...Refusal to hear any opinion other than Obama out at any cost.....My friends and I are not liberals,nor are all of them Democrats..We are conservative but not willing to go back to the stone age...I believe in welfare reform, fair taxation, no corporate loopholes, strict enforcement of immigration laws, mandatory prison for any elected official convicted of any criminal violation of trust, the death penalty (love texas for that),a woman's right to choose, cut back on foreign aid and help feed our poor, leave Afganistan, cut military waste (everyone knows it exists), no tax break for any corporation that refuses to hire and develop american workers,freedom of religion, no gun control. I think it's just a little right of center and the biggest difference is that I'm open to opposing opinions...That little tea party stunt just pulled darn near threw us into a recession again,and we are nowhere near out of the previous one..It was uncalled for and just plain hateful with no real purpose...

There you go..Thanks for your interest

[Guest]

Village Golfer,I call you that because it's soooo true...Refusal to hear any opinion other than Obama out at any cost.....My friends and I are not liberals,nor are all of them Democrats..We are conservative but not willing to go back to the stone age...I believe in welfare reform, fair taxation, no corporate loopholes, strict enforcement of immigration laws, mandatory prison for any elected official convicted of any criminal violation of trust, the death penalty (love texas for that),a woman's right to choose, cut back on foreign aid and help feed our poor, leave Afganistan, cut military waste (everyone knows it exists), no tax break for any corporation that refuses to hire and develop american workers,freedom of religion, no gun control. I think it's just a little right of center and the biggest difference is that I'm open to opposing opinions...That little tea party stunt just pulled darn near threw us into a recession again,and we are nowhere near out of the previous one..It was uncalled for and just plain hateful with no real purpose...

There you go..Thanks for your interest

did somebody hijacked your name?

[Guest]

I think the government is too big butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop calling Government workers parasites on the tax dollars.

I would never support abortion butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop calling Pro-choice people baby killers.

I believe in our higher power butWhat the GOP needs to do is stop stop asking GOD to fix the problems and come up with solutions that will benefit enough Americans to get elected.

What the GOP needs to do to get elected is find a candidate that speaks for Americans and not just a hand full of special interest groups. When we support the likes of Perry, Palin, Bachmann, we are wasting our vote and fragmenting the party into oblivion. But at least the Liberals love it, so some good comes out of it.

As you see above, this thread started out as a very simple ONE MANS OPINION ON 2012. :shrug:

[Guest]

VG,
Wow,I'm looking through your posts and it's hard to find one that you didn't call someone a name...."Moonbats"...Whatever that is?

[Guest]

Village Golfer,I call you that because it's soooo true...Refusal to hear any opinion other than Obama out at any cost.....My friends and I are not liberals,nor are all of them Democrats..We are conservative but not willing to go back to the stone age...I believe in welfare reform, fair taxation, no corporate loopholes, strict enforcement of immigration laws, mandatory prison for any elected official convicted of any criminal violation of trust, the death penalty (love texas for that),a woman's right to choose, cut back on foreign aid and help feed our poor, leave Afganistan, cut military waste (everyone knows it exists), no tax break for any corporation that refuses to hire and develop american workers,freedom of religion, no gun control. I think it's just a little right of center and the biggest difference is that I'm open to opposing opinions...That little tea party stunt just pulled darn near threw us into a recession again,and we are nowhere near out of the previous one..It was uncalled for and just plain hateful with no real purpose...

There you go..Thanks for your interest

"Conservatives?" for Obama? No offense, but that sounds like you must be able to have meetings in a phone booth.

What hateful Tea Party stunt threw us into a recession? I gotta hear that one.

[Guest]

Hrpo1 does sound like he has good values and beliefs. I go along with all of them except for the "no gun control" but that is the only one I disagree with.

Richie, the Tea Party stunt that was referred to means the no compromise by the Tea Party on the debt ceiling lifting. That should have never been in doubt. The Tea Party and their children type attitudes were not good examples for other countries in the world to see us in. The Tea Party has to learn that actions in the US have a global effect.

I enjoyed the good conversation last night with everyone - as well as the Yeunglings.

[Guest]

Buggy one,Thanks...
I guess it's the old military training and the fact my children are working in law enforcement that the gun control is something that I don't really believe in..I do believe there ought to be a better tracking/screening system for these,especiall assault weapons,though for the life of me, they really play no roll in a peaceful situation....Ritchie,pls understand that everything we do or say as a nation is very closely monitored by both friends and foes alike..they are searching for weakness, in any area and will strike.It's no secret tha Bin Laden had a goal of wreaking havoc on our economic situation..

The "stunt" your tea party cronies pulled was to hold the debt ceiling hostage to get cuts in spending..Two entirely separate issues as the debt ceiling was for money already owed and previously approved by congress.That tantrum has caused the market to decline almost 20 percent since it was played out because there was a real fear that we would not pay our bills..If you look at a class clown like Walsh, a spokesperson for the tea party caucus in congress, and listen to this fool, you will see how the anger can be created.This guy had to be sued for back child support and now he is a spokesperson for "what's right"..Pulease!.All of this was needless and extremely painful to us and the nation along with our economy and reputation..Look at congressional approval ratings...the worst in history...Not that Obasma's is any better..I'm a believer in "all incumbents out".very radical approach, but a clear message..I just wish the Republicans had a more middle of the road candidate and I won't vote for most of these guys.Just my 2cents.

[Guest]

Hrpo1 does sound like he has good values and beliefs. I go along with all of them except for the "no gun control" but that is the only one I disagree with.

Richie, the Tea Party stunt that was referred to means the no compromise by the Tea Party on the debt ceiling lifting. That should have never been in doubt. The Tea Party and their children type attitudes were not good examples for other countries in the world to see us in. The Tea Party has to learn that actions in the US have a global effect.

I enjoyed the good conversation last night with everyone - as well as the Yeunglings.

Do you mean the Republican's? Because the last time I looked there were two sides of the aisle and it was Democrats on one side and Republicans on the other.

You guys seem to have no idea what the Tea Party movement is. You seem to think they are a political party. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but no, they aren't.

Even with your misconceptions, the objection to raising the debt ceiling while cutting spending is only a disaster in your minds. I reject your analysis and so do many. Stunt?......ha!!

[Guest]

Ritchie,you are right...Only without the tea party caucus the republicans would lose the majority and they had Boehner over a barrel..There was no comprimise..Remember when Mc Cain called the tea party "hobbits"...They were angry because the tea party held up the whole process needlessly..

[Guest]

Ritchie,you are right...Only without the tea party caucus the republicans would lose the majority and they had Boehner over a barrel..There was no comprimise..Remember when Mc Cain called the tea party "hobbits"...They were angry because the tea party held up the whole process needlessly..

John McCain is old line "hand in each other's pockets" Republican. The fact he doesn't like the Tea Party only adds to it's appeal to most Republicans.

The Tea Party movement is dragging the Republican Party back to respectability. The process needed holding up and in the end the Republicans caved and some may pay in the coming primaries. The Democrats strategically delayed until the 11th hour and then got everyone's panties in a twist screaming "oh no, we gonna default, we gonna default", when it was they who delayed the budget by not negotiating for months.

People won't forget and true patriots like Marco Rubio won't let them.

[Guest]

Rubio is an absolute joke...He has the foreign vote that's for sure...

[Guest]

The tea party movement is turning out to be a threat to the business as usual in Washington.

And who said the tea party movement was only relegated to the republican party? I guess the faithful and the media only play it that way.

Perhaps it is unfortunate the movement toward not electing incumbents and changing business as usual in Washington was labeled tea party and then polarized.

There are American voters across the board who are fed up with the way Washington works or does not work. There is no need to constantly be trying to force every single outcome into either an R or a D.

Once upon a time such a general displeasure with an activity or organization or individual, etc was called a groundswell....no partisan assignation required.

The sooner we get back to discussing what is good for America and give up on the destructive need to paint everything R or D... the better. Just think of what we all do every single day that does not involve an R or D need.....just about everything we do....now why is that? Because there are some things that politicians and the media know....and that is ultimately you cannot make Americans do what they don't want to do or don't like.

And the majority of us do not like what is going on in Washington and the majority of us do not like the way Obama and congress is doing it. No R or D required to present what America feels. (I do recognize what a major discomfort that presents for those who only know partisan positioning only...what a shame for them).

btk

[Guest]

The tea party movement is turning out to be a threat to the business as usual in Washington.

And who said the tea party movement was only relegated to the republican party? I guess the faithful and the media only play it that way.

Perhaps it is unfortunate the movement toward not electing incumbents and changing business as usual in Washington was labeled tea party and then polarized.

There are American voters across the board who are fed up with the way Washington works or does not work. There is no need to constantly be trying to force every single outcome into either an R or a D.

Once upon a time such a general displeasure with an activity or organization or individual, etc was called a groundswell....no partisan assignation required.

The sooner we get back to discussing what is good for America and give up on the destructive need to paint everything R or D... the better. Just think of what we all do every single day that does not involve an R or D need.....just about everything we do....now why is that? Because there are some things that politicians and the media know....and that is ultimately you cannot make Americans do what they don't want to do or don't like.

And the majority of us do not like what is going on in Washington and the majority of us do not like the way Obama and congress is doing it. No R or D required to present what America feels. (I do recognize what a major discomfort that presents for those who only know partisan positioning only...what a shame for them).

btk

Your are right. I remember our first Tea Party rally and there were no partisan signs and nobody asked each other what party they were affiliated with. I haven't thought of that rally in a long time. It was a real good feeling just talking to people who had the same concerns as mine. I remember talking to a single mother of two who had to hire a babysitter to come to the rally. It was unbelievable. Thousands of people riding by us and tooting their horns. We did it at rush hour when we knew traffic would be heavy.

[Guest]

Rubio is an absolute joke...He has the foreign vote that's for sure...

:1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

[Guest]

Ritchie,I'm glad to hear, and sure the GOP folks here are very happy that they have the TEA PARTY to help make them respectful again. At least according to You..

[Guest]

BTK..I agree with about 80 percent of what you said..I don't believe the "all incumbents out" is really a tea party idea though..I'd like to get rid of them(tea party) too..The fact is, in order to accomplish anything we must not become a disorganized system, composed of splinter groups, each with an idealogy encased in stone..This will require comprimise by all parties...ON all sides..that's where my problem with the tea party comes in,their unwillingness to work with the "majority",their unwillingness to listen to any other side,their unwillingness to understand we are a modern society and with that it will require certain humanitarian gestures that will, yes, cost us money, and their willingness to completely disrupt the system in order to acccomplish their stringent agenda. They behave like spoiled children..

[Guest]

Last year I stopped by the Tri-County Tea Party information booth at the Spanish Springs Chili Cook-Off Contest so I could get some actual information on what the Tea Party is really about. They gave me some pamphlets to read.

I was talking to one of their volunteers giving out the information and found out she was from the same general area in the Washington DC area as me. She was going on and on about how many black people there are up there and so happy that there are so few in The Villages. She was very angry that a black man was now in the White House.

Even though this was just one person in the Tea Party and I am sure does not represent the entire Tea Party, I was so turned off by this idiot lady and that the Tri-County Tea Party would let such a bigot represent them at an information booth - I will have no further contact with the Tea Party. First impressions - in person - are everything.

[Guest]

Buggy one...At least SHE was honest in admitting the tea party is inundated with bigotry...Can't have "those kind of folks" in office can we?..Good to hear another first hand experience in dealing with their reps...Mine were just ordinary tea party members and weren't in any official capacity,but certainly left me with those exact feelings.

[Guest]

This is going to come across bad, but it was a white man that died to free the slaves (Lincoln) and it is a black man trying to destroy this country (Obama) I give every man a fair shake but I'm just pointing out a fact .

[Guest]

I have met and talked to hundreds of Tea Party people and never heard any of them talk about black people in any disrespectful way. People can try to tarnish the Tea Party if they want, but you will see more changes in the 2012 election, including a big one in the White House. Most people see through the propaganda against the Tea Party and take it for what it is, nonsense.

[Guest]

I am actually happy to see someone that has had these positive experiences,especially when these are FIRST HAND,and not from someone that has never even attended a meeting ...No matter what the party affiliation..We are all entitled to our opinions, and as long as they are thought driven and not ideology driven then they must be given merit..That is what I wish everyone would do, that is to ask the question "why" every time they see or hear something they are in disagreement with..Then we will understand where folks are coming from and intelligently debate the issues...

[Guest]

DDoug - ?????????????

[Guest]

From now on I'm going to have to just ignore all the manure brokers that feel that the only way to win an argument is to slander and libel the Tea Party wholesale as rabid racists. It's idiotic, and you purveyors of this travesty are desperate and cowardly.

From now on you know what you can do with those opinions. If you need to be shown, call me.

[Guest]

Really..

"Trying to destroy this country"?

At what point did "believes in policies I don't agree with" turn into "trying to destroy this country"?

Exactly what policy was the tipping point? What was the news item or the announcement where you said "this is more than just something I disagree with - this is something just as bad as flying planes into towers or bombing a naval base in Hawaii".

Do you understand that when you use rhetoric like that, people who are "on the fence" - the very people who's opinion you might be able to influence are going to be turned off by that absolutism?

[Guest]

From now on I'm going to have to just ignore all the manure brokers that feel that the only way to win an argument is to slander and libel the Tea Party wholesale as rabid racists. It's idiotic, and you purveyors of this travesty are desperate and cowardly.

From now on you know what you can do with those opinions. If you need to be shown, call me.

Now Now, you know that is not going to happen. Without your sparing and sarcasm this site would turn into a high school debate session. We would be better off if that happened, but I for one look forward to what you will come up with next. Richie, keep on keeping on. With you, sensitive people like me need the occasional Zanax, but without you, folks like the duffer would be bored to tears also, so don't disappoint your fans.

[Guest]

Now Now, you know that is not going to happen. Without your sparing and sarcasm this site would turn into a high school debate session. We would be better off if that happened, but I for one look forward to what you will come up with next. Richie, keep on keeping on. With you, sensitive people like me need the occasional Zanax, but without you, folks like the duffer would be bored to tears also, so don't disappoint your fans.

Nobody likes a good political debate more than I, but if the responses are either lies and/or observational idiocy; or maybe just the result of some sort of mental or emotional deficiency, it ruins the continuity of the discussion and gets extremely frustrating.

[Guest]

Really..

"Trying to destroy this country"?

At what point did "believes in policies I don't agree with" turn into "trying to destroy this country"?

Exactly what policy was the tipping point? What was the news item or the announcement where you said "this is more than just something I disagree with - this is something just as bad as flying planes into towers or bombing a naval base in Hawaii".

Do you understand that when you use rhetoric like that, people who are "on the fence" - the very people who's opinion you might be able to influence are going to be turned off by that absolutism?

A pilot who flies a plane into a building is just plain stupid.

A president whose policies are counter-productive and darn right diastrous but who repeatedly continues down the same diastrous path is other stupid or an obsessive idealogue who doesn't seem to care what effect his policies have on a country he is entrusted to protect. so how should we characterize his actions? You ask what policy was the tipping point and I reply that just about everything this guy has done or wants to do has serious consequences that cover the economy, foreign policy, ObamaCare,etc

What you refer to as abolutism is the reality of our current situation because of this guys inabilities and or obsessions

[Guest]

Ahhh Ritchie...the enforcer...more attempts at intimidation I see..You crack me up..Never been to a meeting or participated but You did Google it...I'll bet you can see alaska from your driveway...

[Guest]

Ahhh Ritchie...the enforcer...more attempts at intimidation I see..You crack me up..Never been to a meeting or participated but You did Google it...I'll bet you can see alaska from your driveway...

I'm sure I can Google the number for a good mental health professional whenever you feel you're finally ready to get help. They can help you dispel the demons and get you healthy.

[Guest]

Now Now, you know that is not going to happen. Without your sparing and sarcasm this site would turn into a high school debate session. We would be better off if that happened, but I for one look forward to what you will come up with next. Richie, keep on keeping on. With you, sensitive people like me need the occasional Zanax, but without you, folks like the duffer would be bored to tears also, so don't disappoint your fans.

I guess some people did not heed the moderator's warning to stay on subject and not address other posters.

[Guest]

A pilot who flies a plane into a building is just plain stupid.

A president whose policies are counter-productive and darn right diastrous but who repeatedly continues down the same diastrous path is other stupid or an obsessive idealogue who doesn't seem to care what effect his policies have on a country he is entrusted to protect. so how should we characterize his actions? You ask what policy was the tipping point and I reply that just about everything this guy has done or wants to do has serious consequences that cover the economy, foreign policy, ObamaCare,etcWhat you refer to as abolutism is the reality of our current situation because of this guys inabilities and or obsessions

:agree::agree::agree:

[Guest]

Downright amazing how these G'Nopers just don't get it. The G'Nope party just wants to say "Nope" to absolutely everything even before it comes to debate on the House or Senate floor.

Speaker of the House Bohner has told his fellow G'Nopers to vote "Nope" on any Jobs bill that is put forth by the Democrats. No matter what is contains, their job as G'Nopers is to put it down and vote "Nope". No compromise, just vote "Nope" and blame President Obama for not creating jobs with a swirl of the finger.

American voters see through the G'Nopers and again will take the only appropriate action at the voting booth and will return President Obama for another term.

If you do not want that to happen, contact your G'Nope congressman and tell them to listen and to compromise so something good can be done for American people. That is why they are in Congress - not for their own ego.

[Guest]

Downright amazing how these G'Nopers just don't get it. The G'Nope party just wants to say "Nope" to absolutely everything even before it comes to debate on the House or Senate floor.

Speaker of the House Bohner has told his fellow G'Nopers to vote "Nope" on any Jobs bill that is put forth by the Democrats. No matter what is contains, their job as G'Nopers is to put it down and vote "Nope". No compromise, just vote "Nope" and blame President Obama for not creating jobs with a swirl of the finger.

American voters see through the G'Nopers and again will take the only appropriate action at the voting booth and will return President Obama for another term.

If you do not want that to happen, contact your G'Nope congressman and tell them to listen and to compromise so something good can be done for American people. That is why they are in Congress - not for their own ego.

I think a little less partisan talking, on your part, and a little more listening to the opponents of another stimulus plan, also on your part, would go a long way to you maybe understanding the situation.

Knee jerk Obamanism is not helping you.

[Guest]

Just got my response from rubio and nugent..Of course they waited till boehner circled the wagons..They are against anything that does not subsidize buisness.....And they have no alternative plan, just nope and "Obama out at any cost"..That's their msg...

[Guest]

Left wing moonbats will follow Obama over the cliff. Can't they see that he is a loser, an empty suit?:0000000000luvmyhors

[Guest]

VG...and your idea is????.....Oh,,,just say no and give more money to the corporate benefactors...they'll always take good care of us...praise exon...praise exon...praise exon...BTW..what the heck is a "moonbat"?

[Guest]

VG...and your idea is????.....Oh,,,just say no and give more money to the corporate benefactors...they'll always take good care of us...praise exon...praise exon...praise exon...BTW..what the heck is a "moonbat"?

A moonbat is a left wing progressive extremist. They are to the very far left of center. My idea is to vote for Tea Party candidates no matter the party affiliate.

[Guest]

Left wing moonbats will follow Obama over the cliff. Can't they see that he is a loser, an empty suit?:0000000000luvmyhors

Even normally rabid lefty Democrat Advisor "Snakehead" James Carville says that what the President needs to do "right now" is PANIC.

He advises the President to "fire everybody and indict people" and show the American people he's changing it up, because his plan of "more of the same" is not a winning one. Carville points to the last two big races which were lost, and last November when the Democrats were destroyed in record numbers, and still Obama stays the course.

(just to head off some dopiness: Carvilles wife, Mary Matlin, affectionately always calls him "snakehead")

http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/16/carville-doubles-down-obama-not-going-to-win-re-election-on-the-course-hes-on-right-now/

[Guest]

Ritchie.the machine was not up and running during the mid terms..I don't think that mistake will happen again..It's gonna be interesting that's for sure...Just wish there was a good moderate somewhere....It's gonna be lesser of two evils ...once again..

[Guest]

Ritchie.the machine was not up and running during the mid terms..I don't think that mistake will happen again..It's gonna be interesting that's for sure...Just wish there was a good moderate somewhere....It's gonna be lesser of two evils ...once again..

Beg your pardon. The democrat machine never takes a rest. There is going to be a bloodbath at the polls in November 2012. The dems are in for a shock of their miserable lives.

[Guest]

Beg your pardon. The democrat machine never takes a rest. There is going to be a bloodbath at the polls in November 2012. The dems are in for a shock of their miserable lives.

Are you saying that there will be murder committed on those that disagree with you? Please clarify what you mean by bloodbath.

[Guest]

Just an expression, but you knew that. I really think that the Republicans have a great chance to take the Senate back and gain more seats in the House.

[Guest]

Just an expression, but you knew that. I really think that the Republicans have a great chance to take the Senate back and gain more seats in the House.

I hope so. Anything would have to be better than the system as it is.

[Guest]

VG..I'm wonderin' again...Are we "miserable" because we are democrats? Are we miserable because we are unhappy with congress? Are we miserable because the tea party is beyond help?

I don't know but I get the distict impression you don't like us..Now I'm really heartbroken over that but I do know a lot of good republicans and they are not "miserable', maybe a little misguided, but all in all , good folks...

And yes you are gonna get your butt kicked in the next election as the heat is turned up..the dems sat out the last one and we'll be out there even more than 08'..I can hear the nuts grinding as ACORN warms up...lol

Go oh beloved Exon...Go oh beloved Exon...Pray to the gods of commerce,the uber rich,and hope they will give a pittance back from the money they have stolen from us through phony tax breaks and government subsidies...That will be the tea party mantra...Oh and "get him out at any cost no matter what it does to our country of course..."

[Guest]

Did you know that most people under 40 years of age voted for Obama? That is the same age bracket that has been hitting the unemployment lines the last three years. When Jimmy Carter was voted out, it wasn't that he was inept (he was) or that he was ridiculed around the world (he was), it was because of the economy and the jobless rate.

Even Bill Clinton knew that. He ran on the slogan "It's the economy, stupid." Clinton moved away from the social issues and teamed up with the Republican Congress and The Contract with America. Clinton moved to the right.

Obama wasted 3 years fighting social causes and neglected the economy. Betcha a few 40 year olds are not going to make the same mistake twice.;)

[Guest]

vg,
you are absolutely right...Clinton did however,raise the taxes on the uber rich and that's what the current fight really is all about..If bush had not given the tax breaks he did this mess wouldn't be here..I just fell into the trap of passing blame and that is wrong too,as too many of us are just looking to blame and not to heal the problems we are all facing.

I've said it again and again, Obama is NOT a leader,and sadly I worked for his campaign...All politicians are out of touch with the average Joe...That is why I've said many times over, if the republicans run a moderate,one who can work both sides of the isle,they will win wiithout any effort at all...However the current batch running is nowhere near moderate and they definitely are not willing to work with anyone..

I have to vote for the one that I feel will work for my interests as close as possible,all politicians have their own agendas, and the dems are closest to the middle class(or what's left of it) imho...

I think corporate greed, along with the military/industrial complex, and handouts to pacify poor, or lazy people are the downfall of this country and I firmly believe that corporate America is holding the economy hostage right now to get even more..