Michael Vick

[duffysmom]

"What goes around comes around." Just heard Michael Vick has a broken hand. Hopefully it's the hand that tortured and killed defenseless dogs.

[tkret]

"What goes around comes around." Just heard Michael Vick has a broken hand. Hopefully it's the hand that tortured and killed defenseless dogs.:popcorn:

I'm watching the game at this moment and Vick is still out. He's done his time, returned to the game with dignity, and deserves to move on with his life without folks crying out for more punishment.

[angiefox10]

http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national/more-karma-strikes-vick

[angiefox10]

I don't think Little Red is going to shed any tears over Mr. Vick either.

http://youtu.be/HiVboulBkqQ

[villagegolfer]

Some people like to beat a dead horse.

[duffysmom]

Some people like to beat a dead horse.

Actually I don't believe in beating any animal, dead or alive. :0000000000luvmyhors

[GeorgeT]

Here we go again!

[Tom Hannon]

Some people like to beat a dead horse.

Mike Vick likes to beat a live dog

[joannej]

I saw Vick at a news conference today studded out with huge diamond studs in both ears whining and crying about being "hit" and he doesn't understand why this is happening to him and on and on. I never heard Steeler's Rothesberger whining at a press conference after a game when he's been unfairly hit numerous times and not protected as well as he should have been. Sorry I don't like Vick's "I am entitled" personality. :spoken:

[Russ_Boston]

I'm watching the game at this moment and Vick is still out. He's done his time, returned to the game with dignity, and deserves to move on with his life without folks crying out for more punishment.

Ditto!

I know everyone here who loves animals feels awful about what he did but give it a break. He spent 1.5 years behind bars while some criminals who hurt people (and some manslaughter crimes) get less. Time to let it go.

I hope those of you that can't forgive never need forgiveness in your life or your family's life.

[ilovetv]

I don't want to wish bad things on him--those will happen or not on their own.

BUT, I think there is a difference between being "unforgiving" and having a right to say what we think is repugnant behavior by a "celebrity"--a person who is "celebrated" in the media, in front of our children and grandchildren.

ce·leb·ri·ty noun \sə-ˈle-brə-tē\

1: the state of being celebrated : fame
2: a famous or celebrated person

www.merriam.com

[The Great Fumar]

This is a nasty break for Michael,,,,,,,,,However there was some good news that came out of this .....While he's off on medical leave he has taken a job at a local kennel..........

:popcorn: fumar

[angiefox10]

for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

This is TOTV.... America's Friendliest Hometown??? Really???? Because I'm missing it!

[Oren L Miller]

It sad to see people so deperate for a hero that they worship a man that beats dogs for fun. This is just further proof that the legal system in the US is broken. Michael Vick should have gone to jail for a long long time. I agree with some of the posters on here. A lot of highly intelligent people think that the justice system didn't protect against the cruel treatment of animals that couldn't defend themselves. Obviously your mothers forgot to tell you something. IF you don't have something nice to say - just shut the hell up. :agree::agree::agree:

[The Great Fumar]

Word has it that Vick will be the Ambassador in the Rose Bowl parade next Jan. and will be on the national taxidermy float ,,,,,, should be quite a spectacle........I for one can't wait,,,,,,,:0000000000luvmyhors Now thats nice !!!!!

smell the roses fumar:a040::a040:

[Russ_Boston]

. Michael Vick should have gone to jail for a long long time. I agree with some of the posters on here. A lot of highly intelligent people think that the justice system didn't protect against the cruel treatment of animals that couldn't defend themselves. Obviously your mothers forgot to tell you something. IF you don't have something nice to say - just shut the hell up. :agree::agree::agree:

Not trying to start an argument but from what I remember about the case he was given almost the max sentence that ANYONE who commits this crime receives. But please don't say that those of us who think justice was served are either not animal lovers nor unintelligent. I am neither.
I couldn't care less if Vick ever plays again but not for the reasons you've stated.

It seems that when animals are involved the crowd gets very restless. I hope you have the same passion for all injustices.

[angiefox10]

Not trying to start an argument but from what I remember about the case he was given almost the max sentence that ANYONE who commits this crime receives. But please don't say that those of us who think justice was served are either not animal lovers nor unintelligent. I am neither.
I couldn't care less if Vick ever plays again but not for the reasons you've stated.

It seems that when animals are involved the crowd gets very restless. I hope you have the same passion for all injustices.


If he had done to a child what he did to these dogs.... Would you feel that he should go back to being a "hero"? Or do you know what he did to the dogs?

[elevatorman]

Not trying to start an argument but from what I remember about the case he was given almost the max sentence that ANYONE who commits this crime receives. But please don't say that those of us who think justice was served are either not animal lovers nor unintelligent. I am neither.
I couldn't care less if Vick ever plays again but not for the reasons you've stated.

It seems that when animals are involved the crowd gets very restless. I hope you have the same passion for all injustices.

Actually he could have gotten 6 years and a $350,000 fine.

[GeorgeT]

for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

This is TOTV.... America's Friendliest Hometown??? Really???? Because I'm missing it!

You assume too much. I'm also pretty tired of people throwing up the "America's Friendliest Hometown" slogan whenever someone disagrees with them.

What Vick did is over and done with. Let's talk about the treatment of greyhounds. That's something that's still going on.

[GeorgeT]

It sad to see people so deperate for a hero that they worship a man that beats dogs for fun. This is just further proof that the legal system in the US is broken. Michael Vick should have gone to jail for a long long time. I agree with some of the posters on here. A lot of highly intelligent people think that the justice system didn't protect against the cruel treatment of animals that couldn't defend themselves. Obviously your mothers forgot to tell you something. IF you don't have something nice to say - just shut the hell up. :agree::agree::agree:

Now that wasn't a very nice thing to say so maybe you should take your own advice. Furthermore, why are you bringing mothers into this?

[graciegirl]

Boy Howdy.

[paulandjean]

Think----Its time to end this.

[Russ_Boston]

Actually he could have gotten 6 years and a $350,000 fine.
True but standard sentencing guidelines were followed based on his previous record etc.

But he did a fair amount of time IMO.

[Russ_Boston]

If he had done to a child what he did to these dogs.... Would you feel that he should go back to being a "hero"? Or do you know what he did to the dogs?

Of course not. But he didn't. Like it or not animal cruelty is not on a par with human cruelty. Nor should it be. Yes I know a lot about the case. Including the fact that we seem to be ignoring. The fact that a lot of this is cultural. Dog fighting (and other animal fighting and subsequent cruel treatment) is still taking place in many parts of the southern U.S. Should it be stopped? Of course but the practice is part of many cultures.

And you'll never see me calling him a hero. In fact I don't think anyone here called him that did they?

Do we have to endure a new thread every time Vick does anything football related? Why was this thread started? Go read the first post. It had to do with one person taking joy from another person being injured. Sad, regardless of your personal thoughts about Vick.

[ilovetv]

Yes, it IS "cultural", and that is why it's being talked about here.

Our culture nurtures and throws its money at a lot of trashy behavior and crime.

If it's a money-making opportunity on a stage or field in the broadcasting world, the "dogs" licking their chops to make more money are right there salivating to make the deals.

"Falcons owner Arthur Blank did not want Vick on the Falcons, and after attempts to trade him failed, Vick was released. He signed with the Philadelphia Eagles and was reinstated in Week 3 of the 2009 season." (wikipedia)

[EdV]

The fact that Vic has served his sentence in the eyes of the law does not preclude animal lovers from despising him as an individual. I and no doubt others here on TOTV feel that in addition to his punishment by the law, the National Football League should have banned him from the game for life for his despicable abuse of ‘man’s best friend’.

Think about it. Pete Rose, arguable one of the greatest ball players of the 20th century was permanently banned from the Hall of Fame for simply betting on sports games. And when he bet on Reds games, he always bet for his team, not against it.

[Russ_Boston]

Think about it. Pete Rose, arguable one of the greatest ball players of the 20th century was permanently banned from the Hall of Fame for simply betting on sports games. And when he bet on Reds games, he always bet for his team, not against it.

True - but those were the rules that he (and the baseball union) agreed to when he started to play. (I think the NFL has such rules as well involving betting)

I have no issue if the NFL wants to implement rules for themselves involving felony convictions, but they currently don't. It would have to apply to all felonies. But the NFL just instituted a new 10 year agreement with the union so don't hold your breath.


BTW: I despise Vick as well but I believe in our system of justice even when things like this (or OJ or Casey Anthony) happen.

[ilovetv]

True - but those were the rules that he (and the baseball union) agreed to when he started to play. (I think the NFL has such rules as well involving betting)

I have no issue if the NFL wants to implement rules for themselves involving felony convictions, but they currently don't. It would have to apply to all felonies. But the NFL just instituted a new 10 year agreement with the union so don't hold your breath.


BTW: I despise Vick as well but I believe in our system of justice even when things like this (or OJ or Casey Anthony) happen.

I agree with the last statement above, but I think it's fairly obvious that our system of justice is being molded (slowly) to meet the demands of pop culture and what is constantly making "news" on the 24-hour "news" networks.

[villagegolfer]

It sad to see people so deperate for a hero that they worship a man that beats dogs for fun. This is just further proof that the legal system in the US is broken. Michael Vick should have gone to jail for a long long time. I agree with some of the posters on here. A lot of highly intelligent people think that the justice system didn't protect against the cruel treatment of animals that couldn't defend themselves. Obviously your mothers forgot to tell you something. IF you don't have something nice to say - just shut the hell up. :agree::agree::agree:

So you are telling people to shut up? :ohdear:

[villagegolfer]

You assume too much. I'm also pretty tired of people throwing up the "America's Friendliest Hometown" slogan whenever someone disagrees with them.

What Vick did is over and done with. Let's talk about the treatment of greyhounds. That's something that's still going on.

:bigbow:

[villagegolfer]

ditto!

I know everyone here who loves animals feels awful about what he did but give it a break. He spent 1.5 years behind bars while some criminals who hurt people (and some manslaughter crimes) get less. Time to let it go.

i hope those of you that can't forgive never need forgiveness in your life or your family's life.

amen

[PennBF]

Forgiveness if one thing..Being held accountable for your actions and facing the consequences is another. Of course a 1 1/2 years in confinement and
then going back to making millions is not really experiencing the consequences of your behavior which cost the lives and tourture of many
defenseless animals. If you are capable of that you obviously are without
some form of conscience. I guess the theory of some is that being a
sociopath is only if you kill people and that killing other forms of life is just
a misunderstood cultural thing. :spoken:

[tkret]

Why was this thread started? Go read the first post. It had to do with one person taking joy from another person being injured. Sad, regardless of your personal thoughts about Vick.

You hit the nail on the head Russ. Opps! I hope I haven't offended anyone in the Carpenter's Union with that statement.

[eweissenbach]

This thread looks too much like the political forum, and politics in general, for my taste. When did we lose the ability to disagree without being disagreeable?

[villagegolfer]

This thread looks too much like the political forum, and politics in general, for my taste. When did we lose the ability to disagree without being disagreeable?

What did you expect? Read the very first post again.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by russ_boston
ditto!

I know everyone here who loves animals feels awful about what he did but give it a break. He spent 1.5 years behind bars while some criminals who hurt people (and some manslaughter crimes) get less. Time to let it go.

i hope those of you that can't forgive never need forgiveness in your life or your family's life.

Forgiveness on our part (humans) generally involves: a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult>
b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt> ( merriam.com )

It does not mean that we should stop identifying actions that are morally wrong and criminal. Forgiveness does not mean we should never mention those misdeeds again nor speak out against it.

If the wrongs of Vick (not him as a person) were not condemned vocally and publicly, how would kids learn that such behaviors are NOT the road to success (except in Hollywood and pro sports)???

[quirky3]

This thread looks too much like the political forum, and politics in general, for my taste. When did we lose the ability to disagree without being disagreeable?

:clap2:I'm with you, eweissenbach! It would be great if we could disagree with an air of kindness and respect, at least outside of the political forum.

[billmar]

Forgiveness on our part (humans) generally involves: a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult>
b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt> ( merriam.com )

It does not mean that we should stop identifying actions that are morally wrong and criminal. Forgiveness does not mean we should never mention those misdeeds again nor speak out against it.

If the wrongs of Vick (not him as a person) were not condemned vocally and publicly, how would kids learn that such behaviors are NOT the road to success (except in Hollywood and pro sports)???

Well said!!!

[GeorgeT]

"What goes around comes around." Just heard Michael Vick has a broken hand. Hopefully it's the hand that tortured and killed defenseless dogs.

At the request of villagegolfer I decided to go back and read the first post of this thread.

He probably used both hands and, as Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that"

What about those poor greyhounds!

[GeorgeT]

Of course not. But he didn't. Like it or not animal cruelty is not on a par with human cruelty. Nor should it be. Yes I know a lot about the case. Including the fact that we seem to be ignoring. The fact that a lot of this is cultural. Dog fighting (and other animal fighting and subsequent cruel treatment) is still taking place in many parts of the southern U.S. Should it be stopped? Of course but the practice is part of many cultures.

And you'll never see me calling him a hero. In fact I don't think anyone here called him that did they?

Do we have to endure a new thread every time Vick does anything football related? Why was this thread started? Go read the first post. It had to do with one person taking joy from another person being injured. Sad, regardless of your personal thoughts about Vick.

Russ, this was a logical and to the heart of the matter response and I agree with all of your posts 100% on this topic.

[GeorgeT]

Forgiveness if one thing..Being held accountable for your actions and facing the consequences is another. Of course a 1 1/2 years in confinement and
then going back to making millions is not really experiencing the consequences of your behavior which cost the lives and tourture of many
defenseless animals. If you are capable of that you obviously are without
some form of conscience. I guess the theory of some is that being a
sociopath is only if you kill people and that killing other forms of life is just
a misunderstood cultural thing. :spoken:

So you're saying if he was an average Joe working as an auto mechanic making 75K/year he shouldn't be able to be an auto mechanic again and should earn less? To take it one step further do you think all convicted felons should not be able to go back to the status they had after the have done their time? There wouldn't be much incentive for rehabilitation if they didn't have a chance at leading a reasonable normal life. Isn't that what it's all about?

[villagegolfer]

So you're saying if he was an average Joe working as an auto mechanic making 75K/year he shouldn't be able to be an auto mechanic again and should earn less? To take it one step further do you think all convicted felons should not be able to go back to the status they had after the have done their time? There wouldn't be much incentive for rehabilitation if they didn't have a chance at leading a reasonable normal life. Isn't that what it's all about?

Good point GeorgeT. "stupid is as stupid does" (No particular meaning but I feel like I had to insert a Forrest Gump quote)
Read post 39.

[PennBF]

It would seem logical that if someone actually tourted and abused an
animal they should be identified, (e.g.sexual offenders, etc.). They have
deomonstrated a lack of a moral compass and it would be reasonable to
assume this lack would not be restricted to (a) animals and (b) stopped
as soon as they were released after a year and a half?
I don't think I would feel comfortable living next door to a person who
was so lacking in feelings and conscience as to easily watch animals be
abused and killed and in fact be a active participant in such a horrible
activity..:spoken:

[GeorgeT]

It would seem logical that if someone actually tourted and abused an
animal they should be identified, (e.g.sexual offenders, etc.). They have
deomonstrated a lack of a moral compass and it would be reasonable to
assume this lack would not be restricted to (a) animals and (b) stopped
as soon as they were released after a year and a half?
I don't think I would feel comfortable living next door to a person who
was so lacking in feelings and conscience as to easily watch animals be
abused and killed and in fact be a active participant in such a horrible
activity..:spoken:

In response to a) Yes, he did demonstrate a lack of moral compass and that's why he went to prison but to say just because he beat dogs that it would escalate to humans is ridiculous. That's like saying a guy who robs a candy store will rob a bank when he get's out.
In response to b) it stopped as soon as he was caught.

I get that you're passionate about this subject and I agree that what he did was wrong but some of your assumptions are out there.

And please stop with the :spoken: nonsense. It makes you sound as if you're the only one with an opinion that counts here and no one else's means anything.

[GeorgeT]

Good point GeorgeT. "stupid is as stupid does" (No particular meaning but I feel like I had to insert a Forrest Gump quote)
Read post 39.

Life really is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you'll get. (Unless it has one of those little maps on the top! Do chocolates come with those any more?

[njbchbum]

snip
I don't think I would feel comfortable living next door to a person who
was so lacking in feelings and conscience as to easily watch animals be
abused and killed and in fact be a active participant in such a horrible
activity..:spoken:

pennbf - how do you know who you are living next to now? do you run background checks on your neighbors? would you feel comfortable living next door to a rapist or a cat burglar or an embezzler? are their crimes not as distasteful? i think i'd be less comfortable living next to or even down the street from one of them rather than vick!

[EdV]

True - but those were the rules that he (and the baseball union) agreed to when he started to play. (I think the NFL has such rules as well involving betting)....

C'mon Russ, 1975 was 36 years ago, cut him some slack buddy.

[jojoin]

Just curious, why do some people feel compelled to defend Vick? :confused:

[GeorgeT]

Just curious, why do some people feel compelled to defend Vick? :confused:

Nobody is defending him. We all agree what he did was wrong. What we are defending is the United States justice system.

[jojoin]

Nobody is defending him. We all agree what he did was wrong. What we are defending is the United States justice system.

sounds more like you & some others just disagree with others expressing contempt of him.

[EdV]

Yes, Rose knew the rules but at the time he broke them, the penalty was not ineligibility for the Hall of Fame. In fact it wasn’t until two years after he agreed to ‘ineligibility to work in MLB' that the Hall of Fame made it ineligible for induction.

Pete Rose broke an MLB league rule, Michael Vic committed an inhumane felony.

[redwitch]

I was going to stay out of this. Honest, I was. But I just can't. I loathe what Michael Vicks did. Anyone who knows me knows that I adore animals and would rather cut off my right hand than deliberately hurt one. However, I was not raised in Vicks' culture. I was raised that animals were beloved pets, they were to be cherished and well-taken care of. I was taught that animals should not be used for entertainment (was even raised that circuses were not okay) I was most certainly not taught that an animal that failed to entertain should die.

Vicks was raised in that culture. He was taught that dog fighting was acceptable. He was taught that killing a dog who did not perform was acceptable. He was taught that an animal had no redeeming value and, thus, the manner of death of irrelevant.

He was punished for his actions. Maybe not as much as many would like. Maybe not as severely as many would like. But, even one day in prison is not easy. Imagine knowing that someone can make you strip, search your body cavities and you have no right to stop them. Imagine being told when to get up, when to go to bed, when to eat (and what to eat). Imagine sleeping in a cell with no privacy. That is not a life I would care to live -- not even for one day, let alone 15 months. Our legal system deemed that his punishment was sufficient. Honestly, I've heard of cases where the torture of an animal was much more severe and the criminal was given a minor fine and no jail time. I know of one instance where a 19 YO deliberately burned a cat alive. His punishment was $250 and one weekend cleaning up garbage. That, to me, is an obscenity and a travesty of justice. At least Vicks did some real time.

Whether we like it or not, the criminal justice system does not place a high value on animal cruelty. I was surprised he was sentenced to and served as much time as he did. I think the reality is that had it been anyone but Michael Vicks (or another celebrity), the punishment would have been far less.

To me, the bigger issue is: Did Michael Vicks learn anything? From what I have seen and read since he was released from prison, I think so. He has spoken at many schools, not just in Atlanta and Philadelphia, but while on the road. He speaks about the unspeakable acts he committed, his regret, his understanding of how horrific his acts were. He no longer has to do this, but still does. That, to me, speaks volumes.

He still contributes large sums to animal rights foundations, especially the ASPCA. Again, he has paid his fines. He does not have to contribute a single dime.

Is this all a publicity stunt to make him look good? Maybe. I don't care. I care that he is making a difference; that he is telling kids to not follow in his footsteps; that at least some of his money is going to right his wrongs.

If we don't like the sentence he was given, maybe it is time to work at changing the laws for animal cruelty, to make the penalties nearly as high as we do for harmed humans.

[GeorgeT]

I was going to stay out of this. Honest, I was. But I just can't. I loathe what Michael Vicks did. Anyone who knows me knows that I adore animals and would rather cut off my right hand than deliberately hurt one. However, I was not raised in Vicks' culture. I was raised that animals were beloved pets, they were to be cherished and well-taken care of. I was taught that animals should not be used for entertainment (was even raised that circuses were not okay) I was most certainly not taught that an animal that failed to entertain should die.

Vicks was raised in that culture. He was taught that dog fighting was acceptable. He was taught that killing a dog who did not perform was acceptable. He was taught that an animal had no redeeming value and, thus, the manner of death of irrelevant.

He was punished for his actions. Maybe not as much as many would like. Maybe not as severely as many would like. But, even one day in prison is not easy. Imagine knowing that someone can make you strip, search your body cavities and you have no right to stop them. Imagine being told when to get up, when to go to bed, when to eat (and what to eat). Imagine sleeping in a cell with no privacy. That is not a life I would care to live -- not even for one day, let alone 15 months. Our legal system deemed that his punishment was sufficient. Honestly, I've heard of cases where the torture of an animal was much more severe and the criminal was given a minor fine and no jail time. I know of one instance where a 19 YO deliberately burned a cat alive. His punishment was $250 and one weekend cleaning up garbage. That, to me, is an obscenity and a travesty of justice. At least Vicks did some real time.

Whether we like it or not, the criminal justice system does not place a high value on animal cruelty. I was surprised he was sentenced to and served as much time as he did. I think the reality is that had it been anyone but Michael Vicks (or another celebrity), the punishment would have been far less.

To me, the bigger issue is: Did Michael Vicks learn anything? From what I have seen and read since he was released from prison, I think so. He has spoken at many schools, not just in Atlanta and Philadelphia, but while on the road. He speaks about the unspeakable acts he committed, his regret, his understanding of how horrific his acts were. He no longer has to do this, but still does. That, to me, speaks volumes.

He still contributes large sums to animal rights foundations, especially the ASPCA. Again, he has paid his fines. He does not have to contribute a single dime.

Is this all a publicity stunt to make him look good? Maybe. I don't care. I care that he is making a difference; that he is telling kids to not follow in his footsteps; that at least some of his money is going to right his wrongs.

If we don't like the sentence he was given, maybe it is time to work at changing the laws for animal cruelty, to make the penalties nearly as high as we do for harmed humans.

I for one am glad you stepped in. That was a wonderful addition to this thread! :clap2:

[bimmertl]

Disappointing news for the person who started this thread. Vick's hand was not broken, just a bad bruise.

No doubt this casts a pall on this haters day. So be it.

[villagegolfer]

Just curious, why do some people feel compelled to defend Vick? :confused:

Just curious, why do some people feel compelled to crucify Vick weekly in this forum like they are so righteous.

[aln]

Just curious, why do some people feel compelled to crucify Vick weekly in this forum like they are so righteous.

It's media driven. . . why is Casey Anthony the most hated women in the world but Amanda Knox is being persecuted by Italian Justice.

Given the FACTS that WE KNOW I see little difference.

[LivingLarge]

Thanks for the great post Red - I think it was Russ who mentioned the cultural ties but you managed to say it so much more effectively.

[jojoin]

Just curious, why do some people feel compelled to crucify Vick weekly in this forum like they are so righteous.

They probably do it to get your 2 cents worth.

[villagegolfer]

They probably do it to get your 2 cents worth.

Thank-you. You are so nice. :ohdear:

[jojoin]

Thank-you. You are so nice. :ohdear:

yes, just as nice as you.:ohdear:

[Bill-n-Brillo]

:popcorn:

Bill :)

[villagegolfer]

yes, just as nice as you.:ohdear:

Gee, how original. I don't know why I bother saying this, but my last two dogs have been rescue dogs and I know the patience and understanding that these poor creatures need. I have never said it publicly about this because I do it for them and myself and I don't need any self congratulation BS. Get a life and leave Vick alone. I have never in my life seen so many self-rightious people who just love to condemn someone. He paid his dues.

I am not addressing anybody particular, but how many threads does this make? I know how explosive this subject can be to animal lovers, as I am one too. But rehashing it over and over again?

[redwitch]

Bill, share the popcorn.

[PennBF]

It is amazing how some feel the need to defend this guy. Regarding growing up in that kind of culture. It is similar to defending the killers who were
raised by a family of criminals and it is societies fault.
It would be well to read some books like "The Sociopath Next Door", or
"Definition of Borderline Personalities" and many so on.
After reading the nature of mental illness that is out there I honestly
believe some will change their minds. I don't believe these are innocent
behavior problems but rather more deep seeded disorders. :undecided:

[villagegolfer]

It is amazing how some feel the need to defend this guy. Regarding growing up in that kind of culture. It is similar to defending the killers who were
raised by a family of criminals and it is societies fault.
It would be well to read some books like "The Sociopath Next Door", or
"Definition of Borderline Personalities" and many so on.
After reading the nature of mental illness that is out there I honestly
believe some will change their minds. I don't believe these are innocent
behavior problems but rather more deep seeded disorders. :undecided:

Where have you read that someone on this thread defended him. To defend him you would have to say that it is normal to abuse animals. Nobody here said it was normal or OK to abuse animals. What people here are saying : at what point does the condemnation stop and the healing start?

[redwitch]

Society's fault that someone becomes a murderer? No. Possibly the fault of the family that raised that person, yes.

Vicks did something heinously wrong. He is the first to admit it today. According to the culture that raised him, his actions were acceptable. According to the majority of American society, his actions were abhorrent. I don't see Vicks as a sociopath or even a borderline personality, any more than I do a picador when he thrusts the lance into the bull's shoulders at a bull fight. To me, the picador's actions are torturing a bull for no reason other than to weaken it so another man can kill it. Sociopathic behavior? Technically, it could certainly be classified as such. However, it is, in reality, part of culture that I personally find obscene but is a sport loved by many.

I do see Vicks as having an extraordinary sense of entitlement -- many celebrities do. They really think they are above the law and the moral rules of our society. This was true in the 20s. This is true today. The sad thing is that they aren't entirely wrong. They do many things that we would condemn our neighbors for if our neighbors were to do the same things. The Simpsons and Vicks of this world have to cross many lines before they are vilified. Simpson is now in prison for a crime that would have normally been plead down to maybe a year or two in prison rather than a minimum of nine years and probably a life sentence of OJ. Vicks paid for his crime with a longer prison sentence than an ordinary citizen would have received for the same actions. Isn't it time to move on?

I'm not defending Vicks. I think what he did is obscene and there's no excuse for killing an innocent animal and I loathe dog fighting and those who participate in it. However, I do believe that everyone deserves a second chance if they've shown they've earned that chance. I do believe Vicks has done that.

As I said, if you don't like the laws or the way our justice system handles animal cruelty charges, then do something about it -- write your congressman, work with the SPCA and other organizations to force stiffer penalties, find out when a dog fight is going to occur and picket it.

(And please let me keep my fingers to myself the next time there's a Vicks thread.)

[villagegolfer]

:popcorn::popcorn:

[GeorgeT]

Let this thread be dead.............R.I.P.

[The Village Girl]

Animals do have a voice. If you ignore their suffering, I will remind you of it. If you don't understand them, I will translate. If you don't hear them, I will be their voice. You may silence them but you cannot silence me as long as I live.” ~ Anita Mahdessian

[villagegolfer]

Let this thread be dead.............R.I.P.

:agree:

[The Village Girl]

I didn't realize you and George ran the forum.

[GeorgeT]

I didn't realize you and George ran the forum.

That's understandable since this is only your second post and since I'm a forgiving person I'll forgive you too!:pray:

[PennBF]

A number of responses indicate that his 1 1/2 years in jail were sufficient to
pay society back. What is not considered is the underlying mental problem which may exist. Thus to truly understand this kind of anti
social behavior it is importand to educate ones self on the problems associaited with being a sociopath or/and borderline personality and the
prognosis for being a continuing good member of society. It is interesting that his profession remains in a violent world. This does not mean all foortball players, etc are sociopaths or borderline but if you have a history of cruelity then it may worth some thought. Let me add that I am not saying he is either a sociopath or borderline just that when you kill and tourture defenseless animals it is not a "normal" activity to the average person.
As I recall this is a behavior that is a serious concern if demonstrated by
children? :shrug:

[ilovetv]

That's understandable since this is only your second post and since I'm a forgiving person I'll forgive you too!:pray:

"Only your second post".......What does THAT have to do with being "eligible" to post an opinion here???

[paulandjean]

Michael Vick has a mental problem. Now everyone understands, lets feel a little sorry and move on.Who cares,lets say goodbye to this.

[villagegolfer]

I didn't realize you and George ran the forum.

Welcome to the forum. The moderators run the forum, but I suspect you knew that.

[duffysmom]

It's interesting to see that the two people calling for this thread to end are the same two who have kept the thread moving along by posting messages over a dozen times each. The only joy I've experienced in the Vick saga is seeing the good people who rescued and administered to the brutalized dogs. I also admire the prosecutors.:popcorn:

[duffysmom]

...duplicate

[villagegolfer]

It's interesting to see that the two people calling for this thread to end are the same two who have kept the thread moving along by posting messages over a dozen times each. :yuck: The only joy I've experienced in the Vick saga is seeing the good people who rescued and administered to the brutalized dogs. I also admire the prosecutors.

Well, at least I only do one copy of my posts:ohdear: The man paid his dues, why do these threads keep popping up?

[ladydoc]

A number of responses indicate that his 1 1/2 years in jail were sufficient to
pay society back. What is not considered is the underlying mental problem which may exist. Thus to truly understand this kind of anti
social behavior it is importand to educate ones self on the problems associaited with being a sociopath or/and borderline personality and the
prognosis for being a continuing good member of society. It is interesting that his profession remains in a violent world. This does not mean all foortball players, etc are sociopaths or borderline but if you have a history of cruelity then it may worth some thought. Let me add that I am not saying he is either a sociopath or borderline just that when you kill and tourture defenseless animals it is not a "normal" activity to the average person.
As I recall this is a behavior that is a serious concern if demonstrated by
children? :shrug:

The big three are bed wetting, torturing or killing animals and fascination with fire; that is a very bad combination.

[The Village Girl]

Well, at least I only do one copy of my posts:ohdear: The man paid his dues, why do these threads keep popping up?

Because YOU and George have to have the last word! :spoken:

[The Village Girl]

Welcome to the forum. The moderators run the forum, but I suspect you knew that.

Sometimes I get confused. I've been watching the forum for awhile and it appears that you seem to think you do. Wasn't sure. Thanks for straightening me out! It's what you do well I see. Straighten people out. Right?

[villagegolfer]

Sometimes I get confused. I've been watching the forum for awhile and it appears that you seem to think you do. Wasn't sure. Thanks for straightening me out! It's what you do well I see. Straighten people out. Right?

Okay, I give up. You sound like a recently suspended poster. 4 posts?

[The Village Girl]

Okay, I give up. You sound like a recently suspended poster. 4 posts?

Wrong again!

What?

Someone doesn't agree with you and you start calling names? As I said, I've seen you in action. If you can get away with the things you say, I don't have anything to worry about.

Now, let it go and the thread will stop.

[villagegolfer]

Wrong again!

What?

Someone doesn't agree with you and you start calling names? As I said, I've seen you in action. If you can get away with the things you say, I don't have anything to worry about.

Now, let it go and the thread will stop.

Wow, settle down. You seem angry. Nobody here called you a name. I just thought you sound like you have been here for awhile that's all.

[Trish Crocker]

I have nothing to say about Vick...he's trash. I live outside of Detroit and there are a lot of cases of dog fighting in the city. I think they should all go to jail or be put on an island somewhere together, without animals. What I have a problem with is the attitude of many sports figures. There are so many young men and women that would give anything to have the opportunity to play professional sports, talented, gifted young people that will never have the chance. It really angers me when someone makes it to the pros and then shows that they don't deserve to be there. Until 'fans' quit paying exorbitent prices to watch these morons pay, we will continue to support illegal and immoral actions.

[The Village Girl]

Wow, settle down. You seem angry. Nobody here called you a name. I just thought you sound like you have been here for awhile that's all.

No, not angry. Now, back away from the keyboard and no one gets hurt! :spoken:

[Bill-n-Brillo]

...... Now, back away from the keyboard and no one gets hurt! :spoken:

Now that's some funny stuff right there, Village Girl!!! :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

:popcorn:

Bill :)

[2BNTV]

I am staying on the sidelines on this thread.

Bill - You have popcorn to share?

Joe :popcorn:

[GeorgeT]

"Only your second post".......What does THAT have to do with being "eligible" to post an opinion here???

It was a JOKE.

[GeorgeT]

Because YOU and George have to have the last word! :spoken:

No I don't.:spoken::spoken::spoken::spoken::spoken::spo ken:

[The Village Girl]

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: And there is the other half of the tag team!!!

[GeorgeT]

No, not angry. Now, back away from the keyboard and no one gets hurt! :spoken:

See now that's the spirit, Welcome to the dark side. We're just having some fun. Ya gotta admit this is amusing.

[GeorgeT]

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: And there is the other half of the tag team!!!

Hmmmmmm? Village Girl & Village Golfer. Is there something weird going on here?????

[villagegolfer]

Hmmmmmm? Village Girl & Village Golfer. Is there something weird going on here?????

Probably, but it don't involve me.:loco:

[RichieLion]

For those who need still need revenge on Michael Vick for his past animal abuse, this link has a nicely done photoshopped photo of Vick in uniform getting his comeuppance from a couple of nasty pit-bulls.

FYI: It's graphic and bloody.

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/gallery/dogs-get-revenge/

[GeorgeT]

For those who need still need revenge on Michael Vick for his past animal abuse, this link has a nicely done photoshopped photo of Vick in uniform getting his comeuppance from a couple of nasty pit-bulls.

FYI: It's graphic and bloody.

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/gallery/dogs-get-revenge/

I liked some of the other photos of him too. The one of the German Shepard
humping him cracked me up!

[PennBF]

It is not that he has "served time" and should now be OK to pursue his
career. It is not that it was unfortunate and as some say, "get over it".
Some just don't understand this type of person who could sit and watch
animals be killed and tortured..You don't just turn off this kind of behavior.
Does he deserve to go back to the violent world of the NFL/AFL. NO.
May be a very sick anti social person with some underlying serious mental probllems. As they say, I can tell you what the problems are but I can't help you understand them.:undecided:

[villagegolfer]

Did Vick have these tendencies all his life or was it just an acquired habit? I know guys in war who mutilated dead bodies but went home and never acted on it. I am not being facetious here. I am serious.

[buckscounty]

Everybody deserves a second chance, Vick was brought up not knowing any better.

[GeorgeT]

It is not that he has "served time" and should now be OK to pursue his
career. It is not that it was unfortunate and as some say, "get over it".
Some just don't understand this type of person who could sit and watch
animals be killed and tortured..You don't just turn off this kind of behavior.
Does he deserve to go back to the violent world of the NFL/AFL. NO.
May be a very sick anti social person with some underlying serious mental probllems. As they say, I can tell you what the problems are but I can't help you understand them.:undecided:

So, I'd be interested to hear what you think he should do or what should happen to him?

[Bonny]

Here's kind of what I think !! LOL

[angiefox10]

Here's kind of what I think !! LOL


:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[billmar]

Here's kind of what I think !! LOL

Good One:BigApplause:

[Jim Straz]

Here's kind of what I think !! LOL
Outstanding! Going to have to meet you one day.

[captg]

:evil6: Fly Eagles Fly!:ohdear::ohdear:

[redwitch]

Shouldn't that be Laddie? Have a problem with Lassie hoisting one leg. But do love the cartoon.

[Rags123]

So, I'd be interested to hear what you think he should do or what should happen to him?

His crime was not a crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...it was not a crime because he was in the ghetto.....not a crime of making that mistake in one bad second in your life. Not a crime that he could not have walked away from at anytime had he wanted...not a crime where he was not aware of what he was doing over and over......not a crime where he was simply the money man (he DID participate in not just fighting but hard abuse)

He was then welcomed back into the NFL and became a multi millionaire !

Now I ask anyone....what do you think is inside someone that could swing a dog around over his head and then slam his head to the ground ? ACTUAL facts from the trial

Do you think he is "reformed" or do you think he just wants the money ?

[villagegolfer]

His crime was not a crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...it was not a crime because he was in the ghetto.....not a crime of making that mistake in one bad second in your life. Not a crime that he could not have walked away from at anytime had he wanted...not a crime where he was not aware of what he was doing over and over......not a crime where he was simply the money man (he DID participate in not just fighting but hard abuse)

He was then welcomed back into the NFL and became a multi millionaire !

Now I ask anyone....what do you think is inside someone that could swing a dog around over his head and then slam his head to the ground ? ACTUAL facts from the trial

Do you think he is "reformed" or do you think he just wants the money ?

I don't know. Do you think he is reformed? Does the courts think he is reformed? Do the shrinks think he is reformed? Who would not want the money?

[collie1228]

This whole argument is nasty and in some respects, Un-American. I hate what Vick did, and I'd never shake his hand or root for his team, or do him a single favor. But he was convicted under our justice system and paid the price the system demanded. Now some people think he has no right to resume his career and be paid for it? Sorry, that's not the way I want my country to operate. You can dislike him (as I do), but you have no right to deny him the rights we all have under our constitution. Boo him louldly when he plays, but you can't deny him his profession. Now let me quickly get out of the way of the spears that are now flying my way . . . .

[PennBF]

It is interesting that a sizable group don't really understand the point that I
think is important. An analogy would be what if he was a "pedophile" or fell
under the Sexual Predator' category? If the person served a short jail term and then released to society is he/she no longer of any concern? Of course not. Here you have a person who killed and tortured defenseless animals and after 1 1/2 years of confinement he is now healed and mentally stable and ready to reenter society without any future treatments. I think not. Serving 1 1/2 years for being abusive is paying a debt to society but not a license that means all of your mental problems are now gone. What drove the person to be so cruel and lack of conscience is a serious question and not easily answered or allegedly cured by a year and a half. I am not a therapist but just plain common sense would indicate this person has some potential deep rooted problems and maybe is very disturbed. As I understand it being raised in "the hood" does not necessarily give a person a free pass to have serious mental and/or behavior problems and to kill and abuse animals, etc.
Net: His conduct would indicate some form of lack of conscience and that is a very serious problem and may not be cured by some limited jail time. It would be interesting what a therapist would say with him returning to a violent world and continuing to claim he is now a "victim" of that world? As the noted Harvard psychiatrist wrote that not all people who claim they are victims have serious problems but is it an early warning sign for some. In the
press he has complained that he is not receiving a "roughing the quarterback" penality as are being called against other quarterback??? A victim ?:undecided:

[angiefox10]

I think you said that very well. Thank you.

[villagegolfer]

It is interesting that a sizable group don't really understand the point that I
think is important. An analogy would be what if he was a "pedophile" or fell
under the Sexual Predator' category? If the person served a short jail term and then released to society is he/she no longer of any concern? Of course not. Here you have a person who killed and tortured defenseless animals and after 1 1/2 years of confinement he is now healed and mentally stable and ready to reenter society without any future treatments. I think not. Serving 1 1/2 years for being abusive is paying a debt to society but not a license that means all of your mental problems are now gone. What drove the person to be so cruel and lack of conscience is a serious question and not easily answered or allegedly cured by a year and a half. I am not a therapist but just plain common sense would indicate this person has some potential deep rooted problems and maybe is very disturbed. As I understand it being raised in "the hood" does not necessarily give a person a free pass to have serious mental and/or behavior problems and to kill and abuse animals, etc.
Net: His conduct would indicate some form of lack of conscience and that is a very serious problem and may not be cured by some limited jail time. It would be interesting what a therapist would say with him returning to a violent world and continuing to claim he is now a "victim" of that world? As the noted Harvard psychiatrist wrote that not all people who claim they are victims have serious problems but is it an early warning sign for some. In the
press he has complained that he is not receiving a "roughing the quarterback" penality as are being called against other quarterback??? A victim ?:undecided:
Do you know for a fact that he is not in therapy? Is he on probation? Does he still talk to groups about the dangers of hurting animals? Do you know if he was classified as having a mental illness. Maybe he was just brought up like that. Maybe he was taught those things. Maybe it is like a wife beater who knows other way because his father did that?

[PennBF]

If you don't understand there is little I can do to help you..!!:spoken:

[Bonny]

:agree:

[villagegolfer]

If you don't understand there is little I can do to help you..!!:spoken:

I am not the one who needs help.:spoken:

[Russ_Boston]

If you don't understand there is little I can do to help you..!!:spoken:

I think VillageGolfer asked some legit questions and you answer by dismissive comments like these?

I'd like to know some of the answers as well.

You raised some good points but VillageGolfer also raised some good counter points. Debate it if you can.

[GeorgeT]

If you don't understand there is little I can do to help you..!!:spoken:

Villagegolfer asked some pointed, legitimate questions and this is your response? Once again, no one on this board is or has defended the terrible things Vick did. Why compare him to a pedophile? Isn't what he did bad enough? If you want a comparison why not the greyhound track owners or even the Morse family but a pedophile? Sorry, but I just don't get that.

[MrMark]

It is interesting that a sizable group don't really understand the point that I
think is important. An analogy would be what if he was a "pedophile" or fell
under the Sexual Predator' category? If the person served a short jail term and then released to society is he/she no longer of any concern? Of course not. Here you have a person who killed and tortured defenseless animals and after 1 1/2 years of confinement he is now healed and mentally stable and ready to reenter society without any future treatments. I think not. Serving 1 1/2 years for being abusive is paying a debt to society but not a license that means all of your mental problems are now gone. What drove the person to be so cruel and lack of conscience is a serious question and not easily answered or allegedly cured by a year and a half. I am not a therapist but just plain common sense would indicate this person has some potential deep rooted problems and maybe is very disturbed. As I understand it being raised in "the hood" does not necessarily give a person a free pass to have serious mental and/or behavior problems and to kill and abuse animals, etc.
Net: His conduct would indicate some form of lack of conscience and that is a very serious problem and may not be cured by some limited jail time. It would be interesting what a therapist would say with him returning to a violent world and continuing to claim he is now a "victim" of that world? As the noted Harvard psychiatrist wrote that not all people who claim they are victims have serious problems but is it an early warning sign for some. In the
press he has complained that he is not receiving a "roughing the quarterback" penality as are being called against other quarterback??? A victim ?:undecided:

You all really need to get a life. There are lots more pressing issues that influence all of our lives that you should be addressing. Why the continual obsession with Michael Vick. Get over it, it's history.

[angiefox10]

You all really need to get a life. There are lots more pressing issues that influence all of our lives that you should be addressing. Why the continual obsession with Michael Vick. Get over it, it's history.


You may say that about any topic in this forum. What one person is passionate about may not be another person's cup of tea. This clearly is not yours. There are a lot of things that are history. 9/11 is 10 years old and yet people are making a point of remembering. I will honor your feelings if you will honor ours. Some of us who are involved in rescue don't forget that easily.

Thank you Mr. Mark and have a good day.

And for anyone who wishes to challenge me. I will not come back to this topic again.

[PennBF]

Regarding the ones that feel there should be a debate on the issue. Since
reading the input I am convinced that some are not really interested in a sincere discussioin on the subject as their comments have no basis in fact. I believe I provided some direction as to research references regarding certain anti social behaviors. I would be more than willing to have an interchange of ideas where there is more than a just unfounded statement on the subject meant to just argue. This is not too cchallenging. To repeat some references that would be good reading and research, : "How to Spot a Borderline Personality", "The Psychopath Test:A Test a Journey Through..","The Sociopath Next Door", "Snakes in Suits", "Clues to Deceit, A Practical Lies". I guess the book to best start with is "The Sociopath Next Door". It was written by a Harvard Professor who I believe spent the better part of her career studying sociopath behavior, symptons, etc.etc.:popcorn:

[Annabelle]

I have been involved with the rescue and rehabilitation of abused animals for almost thirty years. It is both one of the most heart-wrenching and most gratifying volunteer activities I have ever had the honor to participate. I have also generously supported many no kill animal shelters for as long as I can remember.

At this very moment, I am caring for a beautiful female dog (Golden Retriever mix) that is approximately 4 or 5 years of age who has suffered greatly from neglect and physical abuse. She is very timid and especially afraid of men which is not uncommon with abused dogs, since so many abusers are men, but not all, of course.

Those of us who are intimately involved with animal welfare issues were not the least bit surprised to learn that Michael Vick had a long history of animal torture dating back to his childhood. Nor were we surprised when he received such a short incarceration for such heinous crimes.

This whole sordid issue with Michael Vick and his malicious treatment of dogs underscores the need for more public awareness of animal torture.

Many people are unaware of the strong connection between animal torture and other kinds of deviant behaviors such as rape, pedophilia, and spousal abuse. So, while some may wish to ignore animal cruelty, they are also ignoring the danger these psychopaths present to humans as well.

For those of you who feel that the NFL was justified in allowing Michael Vick to return to his “former life” as a football player, I would suggest you go to your nearest animal shelter and adopt a dog or cat that has been viciously tortured at the hand of a human being.

Only then will you understand just how evil Michael Vick really is and why he should still be behind bars.

Annabelle

PS
Please don’t ask me if I have the same concern for children as I do for animals.
I spent more than thirty years as an Educator and I am very proud to have made a worthy contribution in the education of each and every child I taught.

PSS PennBF I have enjoyed reading your posts as well as others who realize the seriousness of this whole issue of animal cruelty.

PSSS For anyone interested in reading how a real man treats his dog(s) please
pick up a copy of Mark Levin’s book “Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover’s Story of
Joy and Anguish”........ a great book.

[PennBF]

Annabelle..What a great note..It is gratifying to know there are people
like you who are willing to rescue these poor abused animals and hold
the people responsible for their acts of cruelty. !! :bigbow:

[Russ_Boston]

I'll make one final comment in this thread.

1. I think every response has indicated that they abhor what Vick did to those animals.

2. Everyone can respect those that care deeply for animals and especially those that take time out of their lives to serve as rescue owners.

3. The only debate is on the subject of the fairness of the criminal justice system and the goal of rehabilitation for the offender. Some feel that he should be given a chance to redeem himself and move on with his life after serving the time and others feel that he should not or that he is not capable of changing. No need to cloud the issue with long diatribes on subjects (1 and 2) that we already agree on.

[eweissenbach]

I'll make one final comment in this thread.

1. I think every response has indicated that they abhor what Vick did to those animals.

2. Everyone can respect those that care deeply for animals and especially those that take time out of their lives to serve as rescue owners.

3. The only debate is on the subject of the fairness of the criminal justice system and the goal of rehabilitation for the offender. Some feel that he should be given a chance to redeem himself and move on with his life after serving the time and others feel that he should not or that he is not capable of changing. No need to cloud the issue with long diatribes on subjects (1 and 2) that we already agree on.

Well said Russ. The fact is that Vick satisfied his debt to society as prescribed by the court, and whether or not that was sufficient is obviously a matter of debate. Vick is not a hero to me, but I beleive in redemption and hope that he has truly changed his heart and mind. As Redwitch said so eloquently, he is making an effort above and beyond his requirements to change the hearts and minds of young people about the treatment of animals and maybe that will ultimately outweigh his odorous past.

[PennBF]

Some just can't get it. I would be more than willing to discuss the subject of
"consequence's" once the person has educated themselves on the subject of
serious mental illness's and it's long term effects. This is not a traffic
violation, a petty crime of chance, etc. It is allegedly an indication of a very serious mental problem which is not correctable in a year and half of jail time.
I know this might blow the minds of some of the "give him a break" writers but there are certain mental illness's [Ref:Sociopath Next Door] (e.g. sociopaths, etc.) in which there is no known cure. Again, if someone can come back with facts which demonstrate that being an organizer and sponsor of watching animals fight and torture each other and kill each other and then go out for dinner as it is just a passing past time and the person still has a working normal conscience I would like to see these facts. I will save you the research as I seriously doubt they exist but I would be interested if you can find them..!!!:undecided:

[villagegolfer]

Some just can't get it. I would be more than willing to discuss the subject of
"consequence's" once the person has educated themselves on the subject of
serious mental illness's and it's long term effects. This is not a traffic
violation, a petty crime of chance, etc. It is allegedly an indication of a very serious mental problem which is not correctable in a year and half of jail time.
I know this might blow the minds of some of the "give him a break" writers but there are certain mental illness's [Ref:Sociopath Next Door] (e.g. sociopaths, etc.) in which there is no known cure. Again, if someone can come back with facts which demonstrate that being an organizer and sponsor of watching animals fight and torture each other and kill each other and then go out for dinner as it is just a passing past time and the person still has a working normal conscience I would like to see these facts. I will save you the research as I seriously doubt they exist but I would be interested if you can find them..!!!:undecided:

"When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudice, and motivated by pride and vanity”
Dale Carnegie

[Russ_Boston]

Some just can't get it. I would be more than willing to discuss the subject of
"consequence's" once the person has educated themselves on the subject of
serious mental illness's and it's long term effects. This is not a traffic
violation, a petty crime of chance, etc. It is allegedly an indication of a very serious mental problem which is not correctable in a year and half of jail time.
I know this might blow the minds of some of the "give him a break" writers but there are certain mental illness's [Ref:Sociopath Next Door] (e.g. sociopaths, etc.) in which there is no known cure. Again, if someone can come back with facts which demonstrate that being an organizer and sponsor of watching animals fight and torture each other and kill each other and then go out for dinner as it is just a passing past time and the person still has a working normal conscience I would like to see these facts. I will save you the research as I seriously doubt they exist but I would be interested if you can find them..!!!:undecided:

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)

[duffysmom]

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)[/QUOTE]

I'll take you up on that offer.:evil6:

[villagegolfer]

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)
Than you Russ for putting into words what I was thinking.:agree:

[PennBF]

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.
I understand?

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read.
I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist"..

You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved.
If you torture and kill anything for "sport" then it is a pretty safe assumption that some mental illness is involved. That is not rocket science.

To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement.

No, just those crimes that involve torture, killing, pedophiles, sexual deviants,sexual predators,...you can fill in the additional blanks. I guess the culture where drug usage and dealing is accepted makes drug dealing and selling to children just another expression of their culture.

I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.
How about identifying sexual predators? Is it not a law that they must register and tell the authorities where they are "FOR LIFE"..

I guess now I'm done.
If I gave you some curiosity to educate yourself on this subject then my time has been well spent. :undecided:

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site
__________________

[eweissenbach]

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.
I understand?
I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist"..[/COLOR]

_

"Snob" is the descriptor that comes closer to describing your stance than "elitist". Russ: don't leave, and I won't hit you in the head, your opinions and contributions are stellar.

[TOTV Team]

NOTICE: This is obviously a topic some are passionate about. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. We don't and won't all agree on this topic. We ask that the thread remains civil and respectful so it can remain open. Thank you in advance.

[graciegirl]

I was just thinking that this is a true debate between Pennf and Russ Boston.

Both have made very valid points and both have made me think.

I would hate, HATE, to lose either of them from this forum.

[Russ_Boston]

I was just thinking that this is a true debate between Pennf and Russ Boston.

Both have made very valid points and both have made me think.

I would hate, HATE, to lose either of them from this forum.

I very much appreciate PennF's last response. I think that was very civil and I understand the opinion of those that think jail time alone is no cure. What I don't know is what Vick has undertaken since his release to rehabilitate himself. I do know that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell does not take this lightly. Vick wasn't welcomed back to the NFL without major counseling & mentoring (do a Google search on Vick & Tony Dungy for example). The NFL has suspended many players who weren't even convicted of a crime (Ben Roethlisberger for example). Unlike some sports where money is tight the NFL has no such issues.

As far as the elitist comment goes: I would never use any explanation in a reply where my knowledge (i.e. medical) was put on display and then questioned without giving a full explanation in terms that someone not in the field would understand. To me it's not right to say something and then, when questioned, just say "go read a book". TOTV is an exchange of ideas and knowledge for our mutual benefit.

[PennBF]

Thanks Russ. I sort of stopped any further discussion on my part as some have called names and that really has no place in a debate. :popcorn:

[Annabelle]

[QUOTE=angiefox10;398847]for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

AngieFox,

Angie,
Great post!!!
And great to know there are so many animal lovers here on TOTV.

Annabelle

[Annabelle]

Thanks Russ. I sort of stopped any further discussion on my part as some have called names and that really has no place in a debate. :popcorn:


PennBF,
When one resorts to "name calling" then you know he has lost the debate.
Your posts have been nothing less than straight-forward, intelligent and very polite.

Annabelle

[Annabelle]

Russ Boston's reply to PennBF

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)[/quote]

Russ,
May I "smack you on the head" with a few facts regarding animal torture and mental illness? You may be interested in the following facts:

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children.

Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials: 
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING. 
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously.

FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

www.pet-abuse.com

[ladydoc]

Russ Boston's reply to PennBF

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)

Russ,
May I "smack you on the head" with a few facts regarding animal torture and mental illness? You may be interested in the following facts:

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children.

Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials: 
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING. 
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously.

FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

www.pet-abuse.com[/QUOTE]

What she is saying is correct. Abusing animals, bedwetting and fascination with fire (when they occur together) are the big 3 for predicting bad things to come. Will every person displaying these behaviors become violent? Probably not. Will a greater number show violence then those who do not have these behaviors? Probably so.

[villagegolfer]

[QUOTE=angiefox10;398847]for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

AngieFox,

Angie,
Great post!!!
And great to know there are so many animal lovers here on TOTV.

Annabelle

Who are these people you are accusing? I haven't seen them. I have rescued two dogs and have spent many days trying to gain their confidence and love. Just because some people say things that you do not agree to, is no reason to call them ignorant. :ohdear:

[Oren L Miller]

[quote=Annabelle;401197]

Who are these people you are accusing? I haven't seen them. I have rescued two dogs and have spent many days trying to gain their confidence and love. Just because some people say things that you do not agree to, is no reason to call them ignorant. :ohdear:

The definition of ingnorant is not knowing or not understanding. In my humble opinion the people who think he was punished enough didn't read the book "The Lost Dogs". I don't think they understand how bad the abuse really was. I don't think they understand the breadth or depth of the abuse. I think they just thought he was guilty of perpetrating dog fighting. I don't think they understand his role in the injustices that were perpetrated on the dogs. I would really like to have a conversation with you about this after you have read the book. It might give you a more informed basis to make your posts about.

[redwitch]

I don't think any of us said he was punished enough. We said he was punished according to the law and today's justice. I don't think the punishment fit the crime but, then, I've never thought that the sentences (usually just a hand slap and a fine) for animal abuse were enough. I worked on two campaigns in California to raise the penalties for animal abuse. One passed, one did not. Even so, it's still not enough.

I do stand behind the fact that Vicks has spoken against animal abuse and his actions since being released from prison. More importantly, he has done so long after the court-mandated community service was up and he continues to talk at schools to this day. It may be a publicity and public relations stunt to make him look good, but the talks do make a difference. They do get kids to see where dog fighting is evil. The SPCA and other animal rights groups have repeatedly said that the best spokesmen against animal abuse are former perpetrators. They do speak from knowledge and, strangely, from the heart when they speak of their past actions.

[Oren L Miller]

I don't think any of us said he was punished enough. We said he was punished according to the law and today's justice. I don't think the punishment fit the crime but, then, I've never thought that the sentences (usually just a hand slap and a fine) for animal abuse were enough. I worked on two campaigns in California to raise the penalties for animal abuse. One passed, one did not. Even so, it's still not enough.

I do stand behind the fact that Vicks has spoken against animal abuse and his actions since being released from prison. More importantly, he has done so long after the court-mandated community service was up and he continues to talk at schools to this day. It may be a publicity and public relations stunt to make him look good, but the talks do make a difference. They do get kids to see where dog fighting is evil. The SPCA and other animal rights groups have repeatedly said that the best spokesmen against animal abuse are former perpetrators. They do speak from knowledge and, strangely, from the heart when they speak of their past actions.

I have no faith in our legal system. We have laws for the poor and the middle income and the rich people. I was hoping animal lovers everywhere would band together and not watch or go to games he was playing in to provide a more fitting punishment.

[tkret]

Wow! I don't think there was this much "discussion" over the Casey Anthony decision.

[Doodlegirl]

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

[ilovetv]

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, .......
Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

Thank you for your post. I want to bawl my eyes out just reading it, much less seeing the scars in person.

As for this whole Vick matter, isn't the heart of it all the fact that our society idolizes Hollywood stars, politicians, and college/pro athletes, purposely disregarding their having no morals or common decency???

idol·ize verb \ˈī-də-ˌlīz\

Definition of IDOLIZE

transitive verb

: to worship as a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess

[Doodlegirl]

sometimes I worry that they are lost now.

[duffysmom]

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

I wept when I read about Gus and at the same time I feel anger for the perpetrators. Sometimes I feel that we are lost as a soceity and then I read about people like you and Annabelle and feel better knowing that there are people who put their beliefs into action. God bless you and Gus.

[Oren L Miller]

sometimes I worry that they are lost now.

Sitting here playing with our three dogs is the most sane part of my day. They understand we all need unconditional love. I'm a big guy but your post made me tear up. I would love to meet your baby some day if I wouldn't scare him. I want him to know there are people out there that do care and a lot of people that have not lost their moral compass. I'm sorry he met on that never did have one and never will. Rehabilitated my ass. :cus:

[RichieLion]

Wow! I don't think there was this much "discussion" over the Casey Anthony decision.

My favorite post on this thread, so far. Smack in the head clarity. Brilliant.

[Oren L Miller]

Thank you for your post. I want to bawl my eyes out just reading it, much less seeing the scars in person.

As for this whole Vick matter, isn't the heart of it all the fact that our society idolizes Hollywood stars, politicians, and college/pro athletes, purposely disregarding their having no morals or common decency???

idol·ize verb \ˈī-də-ˌlīz\

Definition of IDOLIZE

transitive verb

: to worship as a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess


:agree::agree::agree:

[Oren L Miller]

My favorite post on this thread, so far. Smack in the head clarity. Brilliant.

On Casey Anthony 99.9 percent of the people think she got away with murder. On Michael Vic an over whelming majority think he should be worshipped as a superstar. Sad day isn't it?

[Oren L Miller]

My favorite post on this thread, so far. Smack in the head clarity. Brilliant.

Casey Anthony is the most hated woman in the USA. Michael Vic is a superstar making millions of dollars and considered a model human being. Seriously?

[villagegolfer]

Casey Anthony is the most hated woman in the USA. Michael Vic is a superstar making millions of dollars and considered a model human being. Seriously?

I personally do not know one person who has told me that they hate Miss Anthony. On the other hand, I have been told by people that they admire Vicks for repenting and doing his talks about animal abuse. Seems like a swell guy to me.

[ladydoc]

"What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read."

"I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist".."
__________________________________________________ _______________
For those who asked what I meant by posts being anti-education, this is a good example. Yes, in fact, people who have studied subjects for years in school and then gathered more experiencial knowledge applying what they learned in the world, probably do, in fact, know more about those subjects. Why that makes one elitist or a snob (as someone said), I don't understand. It does makes you more knowledgable. You can decide to believe or not believe the facts; thats up to you; but stop attacking the messenger!

[Oren L Miller]

"What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read."

"I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist".."
__________________________________________________ _______________
For those who asked what I meant by posts being anti-education, this is a good example. Yes, in fact, people who have studied subjects for years in school and then gathered more experiencial knowledge applying what they learned in the world, probably do, in fact, know more about those subjects. Why that makes one elitist or a snob (as someone said), I don't understand. It does makes you more knowledgable. You can decide to believe or not believe the facts; thats up to you; but stop attacking the messenger!

You don't need to read the book. The facts are that he deliberately abused animals for money and personal pleasure. The emotions are that he is a hero and superstar. Myself - I go with the facts.

[eweissenbach]

__________________________________________________ _______________
For those who asked what I meant by posts being anti-education, this is a good example. Yes, in fact, people who have studied subjects for years in school and then gathered more experiencial knowledge applying what they learned in the world, probably do, in fact, know more about those subjects. Why that makes one elitist or a snob (as someone said), I don't understand. It does makes you more knowledgable. You can decide to believe or not believe the facts; thats up to you; but stop attacking the messenger!

As the one who used the snob word I would like to defend myself. I called the poster a snob because of the condescending attitude that was taken, and not the fact that they advocated reading and learning. As a long time educator myself, I beleive in education, but you can read all kinds of books that totally disagree about almost any subject and eventually you must accept or reject the various hypothesis based on your own feelings, biases, and prejudices as well as the theories put forth in the books. "Facts" that are irrefutable are a bit hard to come by, so I tend to be skeptical of anyone who puports to have all the "facts".

[RichieLion]

Casey Anthony is the most hated woman in the USA. Michael Vic is a superstar making millions of dollars and considered a model human being. Seriously?

Casey Anthony deserves to be the most hated woman in the USA. She's right up there with O.J.

I'm not all that sure Vick is seen as a model human being, but unlike Anthony, he seems honest in his repentance.

Although the mistreatment of the dogs was atrocious, and he should and did have to pay the piper, I view the mistreatment of human beings as a hugely more serious matter.

Do you people know the living conditions and treatment of the animals that are raised and caged and slaughtered for your dining pleasure? It's not very pretty.

[ladydoc]

As the one who used the snob word I would like to defend myself. I called the poster a snob because of the condescending attitude that was taken, and not the fact that they advocated reading and learning. As a long time educator myself, I beleive in education, but you can read all kinds of books that totally disagree about almost any subject and eventually you must accept or reject the various hypothesis based on your own feelings, biases, and prejudices as well as the theories put forth in the books. "Facts" that are irrefutable are a bit hard to come by, so I tend to be skeptical of anyone who puports to have all the "facts".

A fact is a fact is a fact. The earth is round whether you accept or reject the hypothesis and no matter what your personal feelings, biases and prejudices are. Again, you can believe what you want to believe... however, that does not change a fact. The truth is, some people know more about some things then others do. I know nothing about many many things, but I do know a lot about others. And I know the difference between the two. I know when to defer to the experts. I do not need to know everything or have others think I know everything. I am secure enough to not be threatened by that kind of nonsense.

[Oren L Miller]

A fact is a fact is a fact. The earth is round whether you accept or reject the hypothesis and no matter what your personal feelings, biases and prejudices are. Again, you can believe what you want to believe... however, that does not change a fact. The truth is, some people know more about some things then others do. I know nothing about many many things, but I do know a lot about others. And I know the difference between the two. I know when to defer to the experts. I do not need to know everything or have others think I know everything. I am secure enough to not be threatened by that kind of nonsense.

I agree 100%. I could not have said this any better. My wife and I rescued dogs for many years and I get very emotional about people abusing them. You are obviously a very learned person and you said this eloquently. :agree::agree:

[villagegolfer]

A fact is a fact is a fact. The earth is round whether you accept or reject the hypothesis and no matter what your personal feelings, biases and prejudices are. Again, you can believe what you want to believe... however, that does not change a fact. The truth is, some people know more about some things then others do. I know nothing about many many things, but I do know a lot about others. And I know the difference between the two. I know when to defer to the experts. I do not need to know everything or have others think I know everything. I am secure enough to not be threatened by that kind of nonsense.

Well, I have read many books and do not have a degree, so I guess I am dum.

Elitists make me laugh. They go to school and have to listen to pompous "professors" who have received their knowledge from their pompous professors .who have no real life experience. Most have lived in their Ivy towers and speak down to the unwashed masses like the pompous a**** that they are.

[bkcunningham1]

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

I saw an episode of The Dog Whisperer where he greatly helped a dog which had a similar fear of people and had been abused like the dog you wrote about.

Who had debarked your dog?

[PennBF]

Below are some thoughts when being critical of books and education. I am
surprised that some would think that education and reading implies an
elist or snobish person as opposed to an informed individual.

“I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education."
Thomas Jefferson
“A room without books is like a life without meaning.”
Thomas Jefferson
"Bear in mind that the wonderful things you learn in your schools are the work of many generations, produced by enthusiastic effort and infinite labor in every country of the world. All this is put into your hands as your inheritance in order that you may receive it, honor it, add to it, and one day faithfully hand it to your children. Thus do we mortals achieve immortality in the permanent things which we create in common."
Albert Einstein
"It is not so very important for a person to learn facts. For that he does not really need a college. He can learn them from books. The value of an education in a liberal arts college is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think something that cannot be learned from textbooks."
Albert Einstein
“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education”
Thomas Jefferson
:popcorn:

[ilovetv]

So, what books should Michael Vick read?

[Pturner]

Do you know for a fact that he is not in therapy? Is he on probation? Does he still talk to groups about the dangers of hurting animals? Do you know if he was classified as having a mental illness. Maybe he was just brought up like that. Maybe he was taught those things. Maybe it is like a wife beater who knows other way because his father did that?

A bit off-topic, but in response to this post...

So, do you do believe that assaulting a wife is no worse than assaulting a dog? And that both are understandable if that's how a person was raised?

It seems to me that both wife and animal abusers do know right from wrong, regardless of what they were taught. Do you agree? Both deny their crimes to authorities when confronted, for example.

No matter what one was taught, do you agree that their criminal behavior, whether assaulting wife or dog, is a choice?

Villagegolfer, it sounds from your post that perhaps you see this differently. Thanks for any clarification.

[Doodlegirl]

The same man who mercilessly abused him. By hand, in the backyard of his home, reached in and yanked his vocal cords with a fork. Four years ago I found a Veterinary Surgeon who specializes in these repairs (seems it is an old school way of debarking a dog) and knew the story through a website for which I am e-agent, and as a gift for my work in rescue of this specific breed of dog, he performed corrective surgery as best as was possible. Gus can now "woof", but seldom does.

[villagegolfer]

A bit off-topic, but in response to this post...

So, do you do believe that assaulting a wife is no worse than assaulting a dog? And that both are understandable if that's how a person was raised?

It seems to me that both wife and animal abusers do know right from wrong, regardless of what they were taught. Do you agree? Both deny their crimes to authorities when confronted, for example.

No matter what one was taught, do you agree that their criminal behavior, whether assaulting wife or dog, is a choice?

Villagegolfer, it sounds from your post that perhaps you see this differently. Thanks for any clarification.
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I merely stated that certain behaviors are learned. Certain cultures are learned. In certain cultures women have no rights, what so ever. Women are possessions to do as the man says. I believe in certain places where we have troops on the ground now?
I myself have never abused a women or animal and I have had two rescue dogs and I resent your implications strongly.

[collie1228]

villagegolfer, I don't see where Pturner put any words in your mouth. She asked a few reasonable questions, a couple of which came to my mind as well when I read your post. No need to get angry show your impatience. I'd love to read your answers.

[villagegolfer]

villagegolfer, I don't see where Pturner put any words in your mouth. She asked a few reasonable questions, a couple of which came to my mind as well when I read your post. No need to get angry show your impatience. I'd love to read your answers.

So, do you do believe that assaulting a wife is no worse than assaulting a dog?

I find that question offensive. That's all. I have no patience for questions like that. Assaulting a wife or dog is against the law. I approve of neither. I find the question as a form of baiting.

[gatherer47]

To me Vick is a thug pure and simple!

[LivingLarge]

To get back on track:

Even though what Vick did was torture (and against the law etc.) it was not what I think of as child behavour that indicates mental illness like randomly murdering cats, setting fires etc. The torture was done, as sick as it sounds, in the name of the sport. Is this any different than cock fighting and the torture of those animals? Some cultures think of these as sports and don't see why they are illegal or immoral.

But I'm no expert.

[bkcunningham1]

To get back on track:

Even though what Vick did was torture (and against the law etc.) it was not what I think of as child behavour that indicates mental illness like randomly murdering cats, setting fires etc. The torture was done, as sick as it sounds, in the name of the sport. Is this any different than cock fighting and the torture of those animals? Some cultures think of these as sports and don't see why they are illegal or immoral.

But I'm no expert.


Just to add to the discussion and your points, you can include bullfighting, dog racing, horse racing...If you get down to the nitty-gritty, breeding of pure bred dogs can be included in the list. I'm no expert either.

[LivingLarge]

Just to add to the discussion and your points, you can include bullfighting, dog racing, horse racing...If you get down to the nitty-gritty, breeding of pure bred dogs can be included in the list. I'm no expert either.

After reading my post I want to also reiterate that YES I know what Vick did was beyond just dog fighting. My point was that it wasn't just a "let's torture the dogs for the heck of it" thing. Wrong of course.

[billethkid]

Vick's destiny was preordained by the NFL and his fans before he went to prison to serve his tokenism punishment.
Like other celebrities who have gotten away with murder and politicians who have done wrong with no impact on their professional lives, Vick to is above the law. And to say it was not as though he intended torture of the animals implies some concern for the animals well being which there was none. Killing, burying the dogs and raising them with no more intent than to win $$$$ and killing the maimed and or losers is just more tolerance for a dastardly, immoral, inhumane deed than the reality of how terrible the deeds were.

The deed was smoothed over to get a hand slap with a preordained return to the NFL;;;;a joke....permissive pacifism at it's worst...$$$$ talks a lot more than morality for the NFL and the fans who accept what was done.....for the sake of the game......BS!!!!!!!!!

btk

[LivingLarge]

BTK - Respectfully have to disagree.

Looks like Vick was sentenced to a normal sentence ( maybe rather harshly when considering he had a previous clean record with some alligations but no convictions). You (and I) may want more but the justice system has spoken.

[duffysmom]

Vick's destiny was preordained by the NFL and his fans before he went to prison to serve his tokenism punishment.
Like other celebrities who have gotten away with murder and politicians who have done wrong with no impact on their professional lives, Vick to is above the law. And to say it was not as though he intended torture of the animals implies some concern for the animals well being which there was none. Killing, burying the dogs and raising them with no more intent than to win $$$$ and killing the maimed and or losers is just more tolerance for a dastardly, immoral, inhumane deed than the reality of how terrible the deeds were.

The deed was smoothed over to get a hand slap with a preordained return to the NFL;;;;a joke....permissive pacifism at it's worst...$$$$ talks a lot more than morality for the NFL and the fans who accept what was done.....for the sake of the game......BS!!!!!!!!!

btk

Well said.

[villagegolfer]

BTK - Respectfully have to disagree.

Looks like Vick was sentenced to a normal sentence ( maybe rather harshly when considering he had a previous clean record with some alligations but no convictions). You (and I) may want more but the justice system has spoken.

Well said.

[Pturner]

To get back on track:

Even though what Vick did was torture (and against the law etc.) it was not what I think of as child behavour that indicates mental illness like randomly murdering cats, setting fires etc. The torture was done, as sick as it sounds, in the name of the sport. Is this any different than cock fighting and the torture of those animals? Some cultures think of these as sports and don't see why they are illegal or immoral.

But I'm no expert.

Just to add to the discussion and your points, you can include bullfighting, dog racing, horse racing...If you get down to the nitty-gritty, breeding of pure bred dogs can be included in the list. I'm no expert either.

Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.

[MrMark]

Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.

And just where might it stand relative to: Bull Fighting; Deer Hunting; Child Abuse; Murder; Spousal abuse; etc., etc., etc.

Move on to something else. Vick has been punished enough or don't you know that the Eagles have lost 3 games in a row.

[mulligan]

I think the most important aspect of this issue begs one question. Is this the kind of "sports hero " you want your kids to look up to?

[bkcunningham1]

Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.

I watched the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I realized as I watched that it was part truth and part propaganda; but I wanted to know more. I've read information, talked to people on both sides of the issue and it really opened my eyes. Look into it yourself, P, and see what you think. Here's a couple of places to start:



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/dogs-that-changed-the-world/selective-breeding-problems/1281/


http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

[PennBF]

I remember a comment once made to me by a very bright and respected
person who spent their time as an inventor, etc. He was in my mind a
great person with a terrific mind.
His comment regarding killing of anything was "tell me where you stop?
With what living thing?"Taking it a step further. If you would kill a fly, would you also kill a bird, would you then kill a cat, then a dog then horse,..etc.etc.
At what point does your conscience or internal moral code kick in?
What is the real difference if you kill any one of these? You have
taken a life and have no idea why it was created for earth.
Only a person with little or no conscience would assume the arrogrant
role of the right to kill something.
I know there will be a lot of, "flies should be killed, ants should be killed,
they have no right to live...I don't propose to argue these points just
raise this as something to think about.:popcorn:

[ilovetv]

I think the most important aspect of this issue begs one question. Is this the kind of "sports hero " you want your kids to look up to?

That really is the crux of the matter.

[Pturner]

I watched the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I realized as I watched that it was part truth and part propaganda; but I wanted to know more. I've read information, talked to people on both sides of the issue and it really opened my eyes. Look into yourself, P, and see what you think. Here's a couple of places to start:



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/dogs-that-changed-the-world/selective-breeding-problems/1281/


http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

Hi BK, thank you for the links. The info is disheartening. No doubt there are more irresponsible dog breeders than we care to realize. A distinction I would make is that there are responsible and irresponsible, even reprehensible, dog breeders. There are no respectable animal torturers.

[villagegolfer]

I remember a comment once made to me by a very bright and respected
person who spent their time as an inventor, etc. He was in my mind a
great person with a terrific mind.
His comment regarding killing of anything was "tell me where you stop?
With what living thing?"Taking it a step further. If you would kill a fly, would you also kill a bird, would you then kill a cat, then a dog then horse,..etc.etc.
At what point does your conscience or internal moral code kick in?
What is the real difference if you kill any one of these? You have
taken a life and have no idea why it was created for earth.
Only a person with little or no conscience would assume the arrogrant
role of the right to kill something.
I know there will be a lot of, "flies should be killed, ants should be killed,
they have no right to live...I don't propose to argue these points just
raise this as something to think about.:popcorn:

Would you kill a terrorist knowing that he/she was willing and ready to kill thousands of people?

[PennBF]

I am disappointed that some feel the need to try to be "cute" or demonstrate
they have some form of deep "philosophical" abilities when in reality they fall far short and actually embarass themselves.
To clarify...There is a big difference in killing something that is apart of nature and someone who kills because they are a sociopath.
I would hope the average person could separate one from the other. It is sad to even respond and further embarass the writer?:shrug:

[villagegolfer]

I am disappointed that some feel the need to try to be "cute" or demonstrate
they have some form of deep "philosophical" abilities when in reality they fall far short and actually embarass themselves.
To clarify...There is a big difference in killing something that is apart of nature and someone who kills because they are a sociopath.
I would hope the average person could separate one from the other. It is sad to even respond and further embarass the writer?:shrug:

Don't worry, it will take greater minds to embarrass me. Someone here has philosophized this subject to no avail.
Also, the ADMIN frowns on personal attacks.

[ilovetv]

I think that when a person gets pleasure and entertainment out of torturing, maiming and killing an animal, it's deeply sick in the mind, and not just an isolated behavior "learned in the culture" that can be reversed by being jailed for a year or two.

I think this is why many here are disgusted with the "light" sentence Vick completed, and that he is allowed to continue as an entertainer making tens of millions of dollars from applauding, adoring fans who are teaching kids it's okay to overlook such heroes' behavior when not on stage.

[villagegolfer]

I think that when a person gets pleasure and entertainment out of torturing, maiming and killing an animal, it's deeply sick in the mind, and not just an isolated behavior "learned in the culture" that can be reversed by being jailed for a year or two.

I think this is why many here are disgusted with the "light" sentence Vick completed, and that he is allowed to continue as and entertainer making tens of millions of dollars from applauding, adoring fans.

I was accused of seeing things in black and white and not seeing the gray. That person said there were nuances. Is every abuse case a black and white?

[graciegirl]

As a child The Baltimore Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church said that there were mortal and veniel sins.

I don't know if that is still taught that some bad things were far worse than other bad things.

I do still think that there are some things more heinous than others.

Killing a fly to me is not the same as killing an animal that is for many a family pet and for some. loved like a child.

I think that torturing an animal for the sick sake of watching it hurt is very serious behavior and an indication of mental illness.

[Harry Gilbert]

I got curious so I looked up the sentencing guidelines for dog fighting. Fed and State. Most are in the 3-5 year range but that doesn't mean that judges have to sentence the max and most don't. At the time of Vick's arrest the max Fed sentence was 1 year which he received along with 11 months for a interstate commerce charge.

Like it or not he did his time. Do I condone his actions NO but there are a lot of actions I don't condone

As far as hero figures

Michael Irvin: caught with cocaine made the HOF and still working on TV
Sammy Sosa: cheating and drug use
Lance Armstrong: jury still out on him
Tiger Woods: :ohdear:
and many more.

Why no mention of any of these fallen athletes? But many posts on Vick?

[PennBF]

A basic debate or negiotation reqirement is if I convince you I am right you will change your mind, if you convince me you are right I will change my mind. Absent of these fundemental commitments it is not a debate or very valuable discussion since neither is agreeable to change. It would appear this is the condition in this thead and any further words are useless unless there is a need to just repeat oneself?:undecided: