Longer Lasting Batteries

[villagegolfer]

I was going to post this in the Golf Cart forum but I thought more people would see this good news here in General Forum.

Lithium Silicon batteries 8 times more energy dense.

I figure the article which pertains to electric cars would also pertain the golf carts.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/008305.html

[BarryDC]

Lithium ion batteries are more expensive than the regular batteries used in golf carts, but they have a lot of advantages. They weight half as much, charge faster, hold their charge longer, and don't leak which can ruin a garage floor. Does anybody know if somebody in TV sells them?

[jimbo2012]

U can get them, but the cost is about $1700

[rubicon]

It was my understanding that these batteries were being tested by some golf cart mfgs. it was also my understanding that they worked well with solar panels.?????????????????????????? I didn't realize they were available for sale. if so I might well invest in six.

[jimbo2012]

It wouldn't be six actually more like 32 small ones totaling the 48volts, it would take some minor re-wiring and bracket fabrication, no big deal.

I know a company that should have them in TV later this year, want to be the first?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It wouldn't be six actually more like 32 small ones totaling the 48volts, it would take some minor re-wiring and bracket fabrication, no big deal.

I know a company that should have them in TV later this year, want to be the first?

Sounds like the way to go when my cart needs new batteries. Problem is that the batteries ay cost more than my cart is worth.

[jimbo2012]

So what if the cart craps out move the batteries to another cart.

Just like solar panels

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

So what if the cart craps out move the batteries to another cart.

Just like solar panels

Good point. From what I can tell, the lithium ion batteries should get you more range and last a lot longer. They cost about twice as much as standard batteries. Do you know approximately how much more mileage and how much longer they'll last?

[kbace6]

I do not think Lithium Silicon batteries are the way to go. This particular Lithium Chemistry has not been proven for prime time yet. LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is a proven Lithium chemistry. Lithium Cobalt and Lithium Manganese are proven and more energy dense, but much are more unstable.(fires) (IE. Dell laptops and certain cell phones) LiFePo4 is less energy dense than those other 2 lithium chemistries but much, much more stable and with a much longer cycle life. (3000-5000 charge cycles when charged and maintained properly) Some lithium chemistries and most all lead are around 300 cycles.

The problem is there are still so many people out there (using/installing these batteries) who do not know enough about this particular chemistry and its characteristics. These individuals apply their knowledge of lead acid batteries and it just does not work. They are NOT equal and should under no circustances be treated in the same way as lead.

If you delve into this arena, here are a few things to remember.

1. You must properly bottom balance the cells each individually first.
2. You will need a new charger with the appropriate charge curve.
3. Never over charge the cells.
4. Never over discharge the cells.
5. Do not use a volt meter as it is a bad indication of your pack's State of Charge.

I hope this helps.

[rubicon]

It wouldn't be six actually more like 32 small ones totaling the 48volts, it would take some minor re-wiring and bracket fabrication, no big deal.

I know a company that should have them in TV later this year, want to be the first?

I would like to learn more about the claims, cost, etc

[jimbo2012]

Good point. From what I can tell, the lithium ion batteries should get you more range and last a lot longer. They cost about twice as much as standard batteries. Do you know approximately how much more mileage and how much longer they'll last?

No one has tested them to my knowledge, so if I decide to experiment .... who knows

[kbace6]

Good point. From what I can tell, the lithium ion batteries should get you more range and last a lot longer. They cost about twice as much as standard batteries. Do you know approximately how much more mileage and how much longer they'll last?

LiFePo4 batteries have 3 times more energy density than a run of the mill lead acid battery and they are 1/6th the weight for the same capacity. So for a standard T-105 lead acid Trojan 6-volt at 62lbs the equivalent LiFePo4 cell weighs 8.9lbs. So for a 48v cart that is 500lbs of lead. For LiFePo4 that is only 67lbs. Weight = Range

The difference for a new Club Car is about 20 extra miles of range. A big difference in range, but the life cycle difference is even larger. Lead is around 300 charge cycles and LiFePo4 cells are over 3000 charge cycles. If you tend to go through batteries once every 2 or 3 years, that's about 20-25 years for these LiFePo4 cells with the same usage.

Here is the other advantage of LiFePo4 cells. If you wanted to and did not care about the weight or the $$$, you can add a lot more larger cells and increase your range to over 100 miles.

When you factor in the life cycle difference the LiFePo4 cell is more economical. It's all about the upfront costs.

If I can be of help to someone who wants to outfit their cart with Lithium Iron Phosphate cells, please PM me.

[jimbo2012]

LiFePo4 batteries have 3 times more energy density than a run of the mill lead acid battery and they are 1/6th the weight for the same capacity. So for a standard T-105 lead acid Trojan 6-volt at 62lbs the equivalent LiFePo4 cell weighs 8.9lbs. So for a 48v cart that is 500lbs of lead. For LiFePo4 that is only 67lbs. Weight = Range

6x 62 = 500???? I don't think so

The difference for a new Club Car is about 20 extra miles of range. A big difference in range, but the life cycle difference is even larger. Lead is around 300 charge cycles and LiFePo4 cells are over 3000 charge cycles. If you tend to go through batteries once every 2 or 3 years, that's about 20-25 years for these LiFePo4 cells with the same usage.

what are those figures based upon?

20-25 years? how long have they even been on the market?



Here is the other advantage of LiFePo4 cells. If you wanted to and did not care about the weight or the $$$, you can add a lot more larger cells and increase your range to over 100 miles.

Again based on what, where R U getting these figures from?

:read::read::read::read:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

6x 62 = 500???? I don't think so

I think he's talking about 8 six volt batteries.

8x62=496

[kbace6]

I think he's talking about 8 six volt batteries.

8x62=496

Yes, my apologies on the original math. Yes 8x62.

[kbace6]

6x 62 = 500???? I don't think so



what are those figures based upon?

20-25 years? how long have they even been on the market?





Again based on what, where R U getting these figures from?

:read::read::read::read:



Jimbo - "6x 62 = 500???? I don't think so"

Sorry, I meant 8 batteries @ 6 volts each x 62 pounds apiece of T-105 batteries = 496lbs


Jimbo - "what are those figures based upon?"

Jimbo - "20-25 years? how long have they even been on the market?"

Cycle life testing has nothing to do with life on the market, it is based on lab testing. Since anything new that has a long life can not wait until it it's life is over to prove how long it can/will last, laboratory testing is all that can be done with mathematical projections.


Jimbo - "Again based on what, where R U getting these figures from?"

Here is a technical data sheet. I have read many of your posts and you seem interested in the technology. This data sheet specifies 2000 cycles not the 3000 I stated. But I have seen data sheets in the past stating 3000-5000 cycles. My math was based on 3000 charge cycles. But if you normally change your lead batteries every 3 years, the 2000 life cycles will still get you 20 years on your cart.

If you are interested in more info, please PM me.

[ureout]

Kbace6 i sent you a pm

[jimbo2012]

kbac6

very interested, just like to know the source of your data.

take read of this article (http://www.autonews.com/article/20130410/OEM05/130419991#axzz2Ydp6bCYD) not to encouraging ?

Are you selling the batteries?

[ajbrown]

Kbace6, unless you will be breaking forum policies, the heck with PMs, keep sharing your experience and knowledge.

Thanks for the info. Any links you would like to share to further educate? My google attempts have been hit and miss. Any major deep cycle players entering this market? I seem to remember Trojan was teaming with someone a couple years ago but heard very little after.

Thanks for the posts. I look forward to learning more.

[kbace6]

kbac6

very interested, just like to know the source of your data.

take read of this article (http://www.autonews.com/article/20130410/OEM05/130419991#axzz2Ydp6bCYD) not to encouraging ?

Are you selling the batteries?

Jimbo, No I am not selling anything. And I would never use a forum like this one to do so. If I were selling something I would just advertise. I am an EV enthusist who has been reading about and researching these batteries for the past 3 years. I have spent hundreds of hours learning about this specific Lithium battery technology. I attended the first Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention a couple of years ago. I plan to be converting a car from ICE to electric in the next 12 months using these very batteries. The cost is high and I have been hoarding my extra $$$ for retirement. So who knows how long it will take.

The article you sent is typical to what I have read many many times. There was no mention of LiFePo4 cells that I could see. But all the batteries in this article have 2 things in common. 1 they were all overcharged and 2 they all had a BMS attached to them. These LiFePo4 batteries do not need additional technology on them. They need a smart charger and good instrumentation to prevent over discharging by the user.

Here, try this, it is a long read, but here is one particular article where they talk about testing of these particular cells. Also if you poke around this site, there are several hundred hours of video to watch too.

BATTERY JUMP SHIFT - EVTV Motor Verks (http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/)

[kbace6]

Kbace6, unless you will be breaking forum policies, the heck with PMs, keep sharing your experience and knowledge.

Thanks for the info. Any links you would like to share to further educate? My google attempts have been hit and miss. Any major deep cycle players entering this market? I seem to remember Trojan was teaming with someone a couple years ago but heard very little after.

Thanks for the posts. I look forward to learning more.

Asking for a PM was meant to not have to flood the forum with a bunch of technical data, but you guys seem to eat that stuff up. My mistake. So I just included a link to my major, but not toatal source of info.

AJ, see the link I put in my reply to Jimbo. I may not hear from you for a while if you read all the info on the site or watch the several hundred hours of video, not to mention the video of all the battery testing.

The guy doing the videos is a bit of a windbag, but once you get past his bluster, there is a LOT of excellent info on the site.