Ohio Sends Koch Bros a Message

[Guest]

Ohio voters sent a strong message to the Koch Brothers, and their puppet stooge, governor Kasich by overturning an anti-union law. Issue 2 on the ballot would have restricted collective bargaining for public employees.

Next step for Ohions is to get rid of this governor, who is nothing more than a paid mouth piece for ultra-con Koch Bros.

The people have spoken !!!!!

MISSION ACCOMLISHED !!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Ohio voters rejected limits on collective bargaining of unionized state employees with 60% of the vote. The AFL-CIO is very pleased this morning.

I guess we can now ignore any Ohioan who complains about their high taxes. They've now given up that privilege. Maybe Ohioans don't know that they actually pay these people?

[Guest]

richielion - i don't think ohioans have given up anything...rather, i think they have insured the right to negotiate thru collective bargaining that the gov and his legislation would have eliminated.

[Guest]

richielion - i don't think ohioans have given up anything...rather, i think they have insured the right to negotiate thru collective bargaining that the gov and his legislation would have eliminated.

Ohio has $66 Billion Dollars in public pension debt. Ohioans have that bill to pay, and now influenced by $30 Million Dollars of Union paid television advertising, they've overturned a provision to help them come to terms with it.

Hey njbchbum, it's their state and their pocketbooks. How soon before Ohio is begging the Federal Govt. for help and their problem becomes yours? You got enough problems with the public union debt in your own state. That's one reason I fled NJ and burned all bridges behind me.

This win was a singular win event for the Democrats in this election. In the same state of Ohio the voters voted in every district, liberal or conservative, to reject the mandate of ObamaCare. It's only symbolic, but it tells you more than the confusingly worded ballot on collective bargaining did in terms of voter mood in the state.

[Guest]

The unions raised over 30 million dollars, set up 35 field offices and had 17,000 volunteers in order to defeat Issue 2. They won the battle but may have lost the war because killing Issue 2 will do nothing to revive the state economy and put Ohioans back to work

Public unions are dead weight to any state. Examples: 90% of Long Island Railroad Workers retire on disability, even those with desk jobs, adding $36,000 to their pensions, and costing taxpayers $300 million in the last 10 years.

82% of California troopers retire in their last year on disability and so many spike pensions with overtime in the last year it is considered to be a right.

Ohio and Wisconsin governors are in a fight with public unions with the latter claiming governors are trying to decimate their right to bargain but the issues are rich benefit packages that are drowning state budgets with no corresponding increase in productivity.

Termination for incompetence is nonexistent in New York State public unions and in Cincinnati police bargained to have their records expunged every four years making periodic misconduct essentially unaccountable.

Collective bargaining right have made governments virtually unmanageable. Promotions, reassignments layoffs are dictated by rigid rules without opportunity for managerial judgment As an example in 2010 Megan Sampson was voted teacher of the year in Wisconsin. Shortly thereafter she was let go because of the unions last in first out rule

Last year when a virus disabled two computers in a shared federal office the IT techs fixed onebut but refused to fix the second because it wasn't listed on the form

Public employees are precluded from sharing ideas with management because it affects direct dealing rules.

Members reading this post could recite similar stories. For those of you that believe defeat of Issue 2 was a big win you might want to confer with those union members and compare your salary and compensation to theirs. Keep in mind that most of those folks can retire after 20 years and some sooner if they elect disability. What this all leads to is that taxpayers realalistically can be on he hook for 2-3-perhaps 4 people who all performed the same exact job and are now retired with full benefits, disabiled with full benfits and working with retirement just around the corner. What financial affect do you believe it bears on taxpayers?

[Guest]

richielion - n.j. didn't go begging the feds for any help despite their pension debt, so ohio doesn't have to either. n.j.'s elected officials sat with all concerned parties re the pension and benefit debacle and deficit and came up with reform that all parties felt was what was needed and could be passed at this time to sustain future retirements. once the reform was passed, gov christie boasted about how HE had made the future retirement pkgs sustainable [though, todate, he has still failed to make his much reduced contribution]! and now the gov of ohio is forced to do the same - bargain and negotiate! had he just buckled down and done this from the beginning EVERYONE would have suffered far less aggrevation and voters would not have made him appear to have lost a battle.

you post that this was a singular win for democrats; in hind sight one could say that the other side of that coin was that the election of kasich was a singular win for republicans. either way, such statements are shortsighted in that there are public union members in both parties as there are private sector employees in both parties. this win was a win for the principle of collective bargaining - more a democratic principle and practice than a republican one, nonetheless. democrats call it collective bargaining while republicans call it negotiation...either way...this win insures that all parties will provide input to the two sides responsible for reaching a resolution.

the vote to uphold the right to collective bargaining and the vote to to reject the requirement that every citizen have health insurance seems to tell me that ohioans are all for protecting the rights of the individual.

[Guest]

rubicon - your subject line states, 'Issue 2 defeat hurts the taxpayer'. so i have to ask...how many public workers are not taxpayers? they cannot all be tenants not paying property taxes. and those who are tenants are paying their taxes on all other items for which the state collects same - do they not? so often it seems that public workers are discounted as taxpayers.

[Guest]

rubicon - your subject line states, 'Issue 2 defeat hurts the taxpayer'. so i have to ask...how many public workers are not taxpayers? they cannot all be tenants not paying property taxes. and those who are tenants are paying their taxes on all other items for which the state collects same - do they not? so often it seems that public workers are discounted as taxpayers.

Apparently you only read the subject line. Public union wages and compensation alone are out of whack. Now add to that all the feather bedding, conviving, malingering etc being perpetrated by union employees because they can and they can because of the "so called bargaining rights" which by the way are not legal rights;albeit contractaul rights which ought to be put aside and have the states start all over again. Because if the states do not the debt created by these taxpaying union members is going to drive us all broke. Do the math its all unsustainable

I am an equal opportunity complainer. Fat cat corporate leaders upset me as much as public union leaders both of which have feasted on the flesh of taxpayers long enough.

Respectively written

Rubicon

[Guest]

I live in the great state of Ohio. My employees are members of a state union. It is sad to see the propaganda that is used by the union leaders to brainwash the members. They are mislead in such a way as to keep them from seeing the forest for the trees. The union mentality denies the fact that you cannot get blood from a rock. The good governor was attempting to save the most jobs possible. He has been demonized by the leaders of the unions in attempt to save their phoney bologna jobs. Sad to say, lay-offs have already started...gotta save money somehow.

[Guest]

I live in the great state of Ohio. My employees are members of a state union. It is sad to see the propaganda that is used by the union leaders to brainwash the members. They are mislead in such a way as to keep them from seeing the forest for the trees. The union mentality denies the fact that you cannot get blood from a rock. The good governor was attempting to save the most jobs possible. He has been demonized by the leaders of the unions in attempt to save their phoney bologna jobs. Sad to say, lay-offs have already started...gotta save money somehow.

The public employee's work has no relation to money being earned, so they have no personal stake in anything. They don't produce the revenue that pays their salaries, as in the private sector.

They're like children on an allowance. They never see any correlation between their pay and any shortage of state revenue. They want theirs and that's that.

[Guest]

The public employee's work has no relation to money being earned, so they have no personal stake in anything. They don't produce the revenue that pays their salaries, as in the private sector.

They're like children on an allowance. They never see any correlation between their pay and any shortage of state revenue. They want theirs and that's that.

WOW RICHIELION, you put my thoughts EXACTLY into words! After some recent lay-offs, an employee approached me questioning me about what the logic is in the lay-offs. I explained about how the budget works... Her reponse was exactly as I quote here-"Who makes a stupid budget like that?" I was speechless!
I might add, their union leaders are the biggest children! They truly don't get it, they think it is a big game. I have heard them imply that the money is there, just being withheld from them until the game is played out. What a dangerous game. It is sad that these people are leading others, and that others are willing enough to follow blindly

[Guest]

Public "employees" have no right to negotiate money paid to them from taxpayers. There should be no public servant unions. Period.

[Guest]

Yep, Teamsters negotiate with UPS...two different entities. Government union negotiates with the government...basically with themselves?!?

[Guest]

rubicon - i did read your entire post. and i found that it is unfortunate that you are not an equal opportunity credit giver so that you could recognize the good works done by many of the public workers who do not feather bed, connive and/or malinger - but who get up every day and go to work to serve all of the residents of their state, county or municipality.

public employees in n.j. do have a legal right to representation and collective bargaining, given to them in the legislation thru the new jersey employer-employee relations act.

and our gov has assured all n.j. public workers that his recent pension and benefits reform legislation will ensure retirement pensions and benefits for future retirees for years to come. this might be because pension fund members will be paying an increased contribution for both their pension and health benefits pkgs; and because the state is finally going to start paying their share of pension funding - which it had not done for 17 of 10 years. perhaps other govt leaders can take a page from his book.

was glad to read that you can be equally upset by corporate leaders, too.

[Guest]

rubicon - i did read your entire post. and i found that it is unfortunate that you are not an equal opportunity credit giver so that you could recognize the good works done by many of the public workers who do not feather bed, connive and/or malinger - but who get up every day and go to work to serve all of the residents of their state, county or municipality.

public employees in n.j. do have a legal right to representation and collective bargaining, given to them in the legislation thru the new jersey employer-employee relations act.

and our gov has assured all n.j. public workers that his recent pension and benefits reform legislation will ensure retirement pensions and benefits for future retirees for years to come. this might be because pension fund members will be paying an increased contribution for both their pension and health benefits pkgs; and because the state is finally going to start paying their share of pension funding - which it had not done for 17 of 10 years. perhaps other govt leaders can take a page from his book.

was glad to read that you can be equally upset by corporate leaders, too.

Due to the public union, I am unable to award any of my employees merit raises...

[Guest]

Yep, Teamsters negotiate with UPS...two different entities. Government union negotiates with the government...basically with themselves?!?

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

[Guest]

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

and while the age to retire and collect from SS continues to rise, government union contracts shackle the taxpayer to payout the retired worker after their 30years...
How is their "pot" protected and our SS "pot" is drained to other unrelated projects? By "confiscating" my money and putting it into SS, hasn't the Federal government by default entered into a contract with me?

[Guest]

The public employee's work has no relation to money being earned, so they have no personal stake in anything. They don't produce the revenue that pays their salaries, as in the private sector.

They're like children on an allowance. They never see any correlation between their pay and any shortage of state revenue. They want theirs and that's that.

but richielion - what does produce the revenue that pays their salaries? take a look at any state budget....taxes, fines, penalties, grants, licenses, fees, etc! property taxes from the private sector are but a small portion of any state's revenue sources! so it is not fair, nor is it accurate to say that the private sector pays the salaries of public employees. a state treasurer takes a pile of money that came from all revenue sources and funds salary and benefit accounts as appropriated by the legislature.

public sector employees see the correlation between their salary and state revenue every time there is an increase in property tax, gas tax, boating and motor vehicle and fishing license fees, sales tax, tobacco tax, inspection fees and realty transfer fees, yada, yada, yada.

the public and private sector employee each pay the same taxes and increases...the private sector resents that the public sector gets some of that money back as salary and health insurance covg and they only get a homestead rebate for property tax relief.

[Guest]

but richielion - what does produce the revenue that pays their salaries? take a look at any state budget....taxes, fines, penalties, grants, licenses, fees, etc! property taxes from the private sector are but a small portion of any state's revenue sources! so it is not fair, nor is it accurate to say that the private sector pays the salaries of public employees. a state treasurer takes a pile of money that came from all revenue sources and funds salary and benefit accounts as appropriated by the legislature.

public sector employees see the correlation between their salary and state revenue every time there is an increase in property tax, gas tax, boating and motor vehicle and fishing license fees, sales tax, tobacco tax, inspection fees and realty transfer fees, yada, yada, yada.

the public and private sector employee each pay the same taxes and increases...the private sector resents that the public sector gets some of that money back as salary and health insurance covg and they only get a homestead rebate for property tax relief.

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

[Guest]

snipped
It is sad that these people are leading others, and that others are willing enough to follow blindly

katxpajamas -
not all employees/union members are so willing...to even join, much less follow. perhaps it is sad in a right to work state; but n.j. is not one of those states.

in n.j., if your work site/unit is 'represented', the employee is required to either pay the full dues requirement and thus have the right to vote on a contract. or they can pay a partial dues and not have the right to vote. the second example is based on the fact that they are an employee who will benefit from the negotiations of the representatives, and must, therfore, contribute to that effort of the representative. the partial dues payment is not intended to pay for any political activity of the representative.

and union membership and representation is further complicated by employees who are considered 'confidential' employees..employees whose responsibilities could be compromised by union membership. those employees pay no union dues but are bound by the limite of the collective bargaining agreement. they do not have the right to negotiate even for themselves.

what is sad in n.j. is that if there is a union where you work - you must join.

[Guest]

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

Federal Times
9/7/2009
"The U.S. Postal Service, struggling with a massive deficit caused by plummeting mail volume, spends more than a million dollars each week to pay thousands of employees to sit in empty rooms and do nothing.

It's a practice called "standby time," and it has existed for years — but postal employees say it was rarely used until this year. Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.

Mail volume is down 12.6 percent compared with last year, and many postal supervisors simply don't have enough work to keep all employees busy. But a thicket of union rules prevents managers from laying off excess employees; a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them.

So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year.

They spend their days holed up in rooms — conference rooms, break rooms, occasionally 12-foot-by-8-foot storage closets — that the Postal Service dubs "resource rooms." Postal employees use more colorful names, like "holding pens" and "blue rooms.".............
http://www.federaltimes.com/article/20090907/DEPARTMENTS02/909070306/1026/DEPARTMENTS02

[Guest]

Yep, Teamsters negotiate with UPS...two different entities. Government union negotiates with the government...basically with themselves?!?

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.

[Guest]

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

[Guest]

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.


Curious to know where you get your facts?
BUT At the state institution that I work for, the negotiations are between the HR department and the union representatives (also employees of our institution)...these people are all bascially co-workers! The negotiate over the use of the taxpayer's money...the same taxpayer who is not sitting in on these negotiations and therefore without a voice.

[Guest]

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

I cannot believe that someone would have the gaul to ask such a question. Government hacks are not better then SS people. Most Americans are SS recipients. Government employees should never receive more then the people they are working for, which is private sector people who pay the servants to work for them. Government employees live in a Alice in Wonderland fantasy world where the taxpayers are working for the government employees. Government employees are bankrupting America. They are the new ELITE!!!!

[Guest]

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

What if the SS worker was employed? Why should he/she work from age 21-65/70 (45-50 years!) before being able to collect? While the government employee is 30 and out and then collects immediately?

[Guest]

What if the SS worker was employed? Why should he/she work from age 21-65/70 (45-50 years!) before being able to collect? While the government employee is 30 and out and then collects immediately?

Exactly.:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

[Guest]

Exactly.:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

Thanks! Glad to see there are others who haven't been drinking the Kool-aid.:wave:

[Guest]

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

katzpajamas -
well, my limited knowledge of budgeting sees that the private sector meets its budget because it can quickly and efficiently raise the price for their product. but in the private sector, there will come a point where the public will no longer pay the price for the product and the private employer can reduce the quality/quantity of their product; or it can adjust quickly and efficiently and reduce their operating costs, usually through staff reductions. in the case of the latter, the govt will then pick up the increased cost to support the unemployed worker...and the private sector corporate leader will still be employed.

well, the govt never anticipated the need to support those unemployed private sector workers, so where will the money to do that come from. the govt will have to increase their revenue sources by raising taxes, fees, fines, penalties, etc. since the govt has no product to sell. the government parties who choose to raise their "prices" risk not being the government come the next election!

if you have been following politics of late, can you point to anyone in the public sector who is relaxed about the economy?

[Guest]

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.

Government Unions negotiate with the government for money that the government confiscates from the citizenry in the form of taxes and fees.

Government Unions donate a portion of that money, from workers dues and political PAC's, to political campaigns. Government Unions advocate for those politicians who are down with the struggle.

The government negotiates with the Government Unions again. The circle is complete.

[Guest]

katzpajamas -
well, my limited knowledge of budgeting sees that the private sector meets its budget because it can quickly and efficiently raise the price for their product. but in the private sector, there will come a point where the public will no longer pay the price for the product and the private employer can reduce the quality/quantity of their product; or it can adjust quickly and efficiently and reduce their operating costs, usually through staff reductions. in the case of the latter, the govt will then pick up the increased cost to support the unemployed worker...and the private sector corporate leader will still be employed.

well, the govt never anticipated the need to support those unemployed private sector workers, so where will the money to do that come from. the govt will have to increase their revenue sources by raising taxes, fees, fines, penalties, etc. since the govt has no product to sell. the government parties who choose to raise their "prices" risk not being the government come the next election!

if you have been following politics of late, can you point to anyone in the public sector who is relaxed about the economy?

In a nut shell I can see the attitude of the public "servants". Public servants do not contribute to the economy, they can only take from the economy. They live off of private sector money like parasites. They are wealth distribution galore.

[Guest]

I cannot believe that someone would have the gaul to ask such a question. Government hacks are not better then SS people. Most Americans are SS recipients. Government employees should never receive more then the people they are working for, which is private sector people who pay the servants to work for them. Government employees live in a Alice in Wonderland fantasy world where the taxpayers are working for the government employees. Government employees are bankrupting America. They are the new ELITE!!!!

Exactly!

Another problem in this fantasy world is that unionized government employees refuse to face the fact that they work for a "NON-PROFIT" organization that produces no revenue much less a profit margin, as private sector union employees do for Ford, Caterpillar, etc.

"Milton Friedman argued that government agencies resemble economic "black holes" where increased 'inputs' lead to declining 'outputs. 'Economist Thomas DiLorenzo has argued that:

'The enormous power of government-employee unions effectively transfers the power to tax from voters to the unions. Because government-employee unions can so easily force elected officials to raise taxes to meet their "demands," it is they, not the voters, who control the rate of taxation within a political jurisdiction. They are the beneficiaries of a particular form of taxation without representation (not that taxation with representation is much better). This is why some states have laws prohibiting strikes by government-employee unions. (The unions often strike anyway.)

Politicians are caught in a political bind by government-employee unions: if they cave in to their wage demands and raise taxes to finance them, then they increase the chances of being kicked out of office themselves in the next election. The "solution" to this dilemma has been to offer government-employee unions moderate wage increases but spectacular pension promises. This allows politicians to pander to the unions but defer the costs to the future, long after the panderers are retired from politics."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-sector_trade_union

[Guest]

katzpajamas -
well, my limited knowledge of budgeting sees that the private sector meets its budget because it can quickly and efficiently raise the price for their product. but in the private sector, there will come a point where the public will no longer pay the price for the product and the private employer can reduce the quality/quantity of their product; or it can adjust quickly and efficiently and reduce their operating costs, usually through staff reductions. in the case of the latter, the govt will then pick up the increased cost to support the unemployed worker...and the private sector corporate leader will still be employed.

well, the govt never anticipated the need to support those unemployed private sector workers, so where will the money to do that come from. the govt will have to increase their revenue sources by raising taxes, fees, fines, penalties, etc. since the govt has no product to sell. the government parties who choose to raise their "prices" risk not being the government come the next election!

if you have been following politics of late, can you point to anyone in the public sector who is relaxed about the economy?

Adjusting price isn't that easy. Out price your product and no one buys. There are still ethical companies who won't stoop to price gouging.
Unemployment? Unemployment insurance premiums are paid for by the employer. 99% of the time, their employees will never collect. (present state of the economy due to bailouts and other ridiculous WH BS not included)
Bailouts? These should have never happened in the first place. Why did the government bail out these big companies in the first place. Without bailouts, the CEO's would have had to make some major adjustments in order to keep their business afloat. But if Uncle Sam is willing to pay the price to guarantee their bonus, hey whatever. These guys didn't get to the top without some brains on how to get ahead. As for the housing bubble, that was created by government! Dems wanted everyone to have a home and banks were pressured into giving loans to extremely risky clients! It was all set up to happen this way so government can step in and save the day...aka gain more power.
Who in the public sector is relaxed? Define relaxed...need to know because I know a few private sector companies who are doing just fine. They are smart enough to keep their finger on the pulse of their company and make necessary minor adjustments, thus avoiding drastic major ones, do more with less...
1-http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/business/economy/24econ.html
2-http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2011/employers/
3-http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=ups

[Guest]

I cannot believe that someone would have the gaul to ask such a question. Government hacks are not better then SS people. Most Americans are SS recipients. Government employees should never receive more then the people they are working for, which is private sector people who pay the servants to work for them. Government employees live in a Alice in Wonderland fantasy world where the taxpayers are working for the government employees. Government employees are bankrupting America. They are the new ELITE!!!!

loveithere -
it did not take any gaul to ask the question. i just wanted to know what would possess you to make such a statement.

why do you demean the govt employee by calling them a hack; especially when you have never met them and don't know them? you appear to be of the belief that the ss recipient is better than the government employee you refer to as a servant. that is quite a judgement! so i have to ask - who are you to judge?

most americans do, or at least will, collect ss. and thru the largess of elected officials, many of those americans who collect never contributed a cent to ss funds. they are draining the fund of your money and mine! lets put a stop to that! if an american is blind or disabled or a spouse who never contributed, let's cut their funding!


americans want and demand programs and services; and they want them provided by their government. so government has to design, develop and provide the programs and services the citizens want and demand. those citizens are the folks living in fantasy land because they have no real idea of the cost to provide what they want and demand. but they go on wanting and demanding and the government goes on providing.

government employees are not bankrupting america....americans wanting and demanding that their government take care of them is bankrupting america.

so lets stop wanting and demanding and government won't have to provide it.

[Guest]

loveithere -
it did not take any gaul to ask the question. i just wanted to know what would possess you to make such a statement.

why do you demean the govt employee by calling them a hack; especially when you have never met them and don't know them? you appear to be of the belief that the ss recipient is better than the government employee you refer to as a servant. that is quite a judgement! so i have to ask - who are you to judge?

most americans do, or at least will, collect ss. and thru the largess of elected officials, many of those americans who collect never contributed a cent to ss funds. they are draining the fund of your money and mine! lets put a stop to that! if an american is blind or disabled or a spouse who never contributed, let's cut their funding!


americans want and demand programs and services; and they want them provided by their government. so government has to design, develop and provide the programs and services the citizens want and demand. those citizens are the folks living in fantasy land because they have no real idea of the cost to provide what they want and demand. but they go on wanting and demanding and the government goes on providing.

government employees are not bankrupting america....americans wanting and demanding that their government take care of them is bankrupting america.

so lets stop wanting and demanding and government won't have to provide it.

I know government union employees, I work with them. after 30 years in the private sector, the mentality of these government union folks was a SHOCK to my system!
The lack of initiative, the lack of sense of urgency, the lack of going above and beyond just because it is the right thing to do, lack of pride, lack of the dignity that comes with taking it to the next level, lack of reimbursement based on performance, etc,etc,etc....how sad.

[Guest]

I know government union employees, I work with them. after 30 years in the private sector, the mentality of these government union folks was a SHOCK to my system!
The lack of initiative, the lack of sense of urgency, the lack of going above and beyond just because it is the right thing to do, lack of pride, lack of the dignity that comes with taking it to the next level, lack of reimbursement based on performance, etc,etc,etc....how sad.

And how about the way government union employees treat the "customer"--taxpayer....who gets out of work at 5pm or later, but the post office closes at 4:00 and there are no stamp machines in the lobby?

Or how about the last mail pickup for the day being at 10:00 a.m. at all the mailboxes in the middle of a huge office park....when the office workers are producing orders, correspondence, and checks for 7 more hours that need to go out in today's mail???

[Guest]

In a nut shell I can see the attitude of the public "servants". Public servants do not contribute to the economy, they can only take from the economy. They live off of private sector money like parasites. They are wealth distribution galore.

HARDLY!!! public sector employees DO contribute to the economy every time they pay taxes as well as purchase goods and services from the private sector! and with the amount of private sector unemployment which is due to private sector corporate greed, the economy is fortunate to have public sector employees spending money!


the public sector employee creed:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”

[Guest]

HARDLY!!! public sector employees DO contribute to the economy every time they pay taxes as well as purchase goods and services from the private sector! and with the amount of private sector unemployment which is due to private sector corporate greed, the economy is fortunate to have public sector employees spending money!


the public sector employee creed:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”

Nice creed!...but saying it doesn't make it fact. I hear similar comments daily from people who have never had to step up to the plate and get a hit out in the real world.

[Guest]

HARDLY!!! public sector employees DO contribute to the economy every time they pay taxes as well as purchase goods and services from the private sector! and with the amount of private sector unemployment which is due to private sector corporate greed, the economy is fortunate to have public sector employees spending money!


the public sector employee creed:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”


You're kidding, right?

[Guest]

Curious to know where you get your facts?
BUT At the state institution that I work for, the negotiations are between the HR department and the union representatives (also employees of our institution)...these people are all bascially co-workers! The negotiate over the use of the taxpayer's money...the same taxpayer who is not sitting in on these negotiations and therefore without a voice.

my info comes from n.j. state law...the new jersey employer-employee relations act...and the public employee relations committee.

in n.j. the employees of all state depts. agencies and commissions are governed by contracts which are negotiated between the individual unions and the team of negotiators under the auspice of the office of the gov.

no h.r. dept would ever be permitted to negotiate a contract in this state! h.r. depts work with union shop stewards to insure that all parties follow contract provisions.

how many unions and contracts exist in your state institution?

[Guest]

you're kidding, right?

hardly!

[Guest]

You're kidding, right?

ilovetv~ There are those who have never played outside the protective boundaries of the playground fence. Maybe, others should be kind enough to not wake them from their perception of reality.

[Guest]

my info comes from n.j. state law...the new jersey employer-employee relations act...and the public employee relations committee.

in n.j. the employees of all state depts. agencies and commissions are governed by contracts which are negotiated between the individual unions and the team of negotiators under the auspice of the office of the gov.no h.r. dept would ever be permitted to negotiate a contract in this state! h.r. depts work with union shop stewards to insure that all parties follow contract provisions.

how many unions and contracts exist in your state institution?

How many unions and contracts in my state institution? 1

Do yourself a favor...check out who can operate as negotiator under the auspice of the office of the governor.
Pretty sure that could quite possibly be the office of Human Resources Labor relations people of a given state institution...

[Guest]

HARDLY!!! public sector employees DO contribute to the economy every time they pay taxes as well as purchase goods and services from the private sector! and with the amount of private sector unemployment which is due to private sector corporate greed, the economy is fortunate to have public sector employees spending money!


the public sector employee creed:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”

All the public employees spending money is another form of wealth distribution. Government employees are no better then welfare recipients. They just spend taxpayers money. Just like Obama's failed stimulus hoax. Just wealth redistribution. When are people going to understand that public employees are a hindrance on the economy. Small efficient government is the answer. 75% of public servants should be laid off, immediately.

[Guest]

How many unions and contracts in my state institution? 1

Do yourself a favor...check out who can operate as negotiator under the auspice of the office of the governor.
Pretty sure that could quite possibly be the office of Human Resources Labor relations people of a given state institution...

katz - don't have to check it out...i know it is not...i was h.r./labor relations in the office of the state attorney general!

[Guest]

HARDLY!!! public sector employees DO contribute to the economy every time they pay taxes as well as purchase goods and services from the private sector! and with the amount of private sector unemployment which is due to private sector corporate greed, the economy is fortunate to have public sector employees spending money!


the public sector employee creed:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”

But that money came from taxes in the first place, that was earned and the confiscated in the private sector. Public sector workers are just spreading that same money around again. They're not producing new money.

"You" take money from my pocket, spend it, and say you're contributing to the economy. You took MY money to do it.

[Guest]

All the public employees spending money is another form of wealth distribution. Government employees are no better then welfare recipients. They just spend taxpayers money. Just like Obama's failed stimulus hoax. Just wealth redistribution. When are people going to understand that public employees are a hindrance on the economy. Small efficient government is the answer. 75% of public servants should be laid off, immediately.

and the employees in the private sector are spending the $ that the public sector employees paid for private sector goods and services that the private sector employer used to pay the private sector employees!

private sector taxpayers are the hindrance with their "i pay taxes - i shouldn't have to pay any more." attitude. they demand more and more from their government and think they should not have to pay for it!

if even 25% of public servants were to be laid off, the ungrateful taxpayers would be the first to scream, "where are my servants?"

[Guest]

richielion, katz, loveit - c ya tomorrow. 'puter time's up for tonite. had a great time witchas!

[Guest]

and the employees in the private sector are spending the $ that the public sector employees paid for private sector goods and services that the private sector employer used to pay the private sector employees!

private sector taxpayers are the hindrance with their "i pay taxes - i shouldn't have to pay any more." attitude. they demand more and more from their government and think they should not have to pay for it!

if even 25% of public servants were to be laid off, the ungrateful taxpayers would be the first to scream, "where are my servants?"

Hardly, you never can find public servants when you need them. Why cannot some understand that public employees are the same as welfare people. They do not make money, they just receive taxpayer's money. This is why we are going broke. Small government is the answer.

[Guest]

and the employees in the private sector are spending the $ that the public sector employees paid for private sector goods and services that the private sector employer used to pay the private sector employees!

private sector taxpayers are the hindrance with their "i pay taxes - i shouldn't have to pay any more." attitude. they demand more and more from their government and think they should not have to pay for it!

if even 25% of public servants were to be laid off, the ungrateful taxpayers would be the first to scream, "where are my servants?"

Herein lies the difference...folks either pay for services that they receive or they have the $ taken from them to pay for services that they may never receive.

I have never demanded anything from the government, have never received aid from the government, and have trained myself to be extremely self sufficient.

[Guest]

Herein lies the difference...folks either pay for services that they receive or they have the $ taken from them to pay for services that they may never receive.

I have never demanded anything from the government, have never received aid from the government, and have trained myself to be extremely self sufficient.

If most Americans were like you we could fire 75% of public employees and maybe start paying off our debt.

[Guest]

If most Americans were like you we could fire 75% of public employees and maybe start paying off our debt.

I think most Americans are like me and I assume you too. We are the Silent Majority that is quickly awakening. We just need to keep at it until we get back the power that we have let slip through our hands.

[Guest]

The ignorance is staggering.

Go ahead - get rid of 3/4 of the people who do all those services. 3/4 of the cops, firefighters and teachers (think classes are over crowded now?). Knock of 3/4 of the military, the food inspectors, the people who fix your roads (no, you NEVER demanded services from the government) and make sure your water is clean.

There's no argument against the fact that there are places that CAN be cut (we just had a bit of a bloodbath here at the Air Force and are getting word this'll happen again next year). But you're in a fantasyland if you think that you could just lop off 3/4.

Full time civilian employees:
2010 State government employee count: 3,809,697
2010 Local government employee count: 10,965,982
2009 Federal government employee count: 2,823,777 (latest figures available)

That's nearly 18 million employees. You think you can just make another 13+ million unemployed?

Going to have 1/4 the staff in areas like police, fire, prisons, air traffic, water terminals, hospitals, sewers, solid waste management, parks, electric and gas utilities, schools (K-12), libraries, judiciary, transit, financial administration, the military, financial administration, and a whole host of other things I haven't thought of?

[Guest]

I think most Americans are like me and I assume you too. We are the Silent Majority that is quickly awakening. We just need to keep at it until we get back the power that we have let slip through our hands.



Most Americans are not like you - thank goodness.

Most Americans don't think it was very wise to cut taxes and, at the same time, start two wars. Both of which, by the way, you left for others to finish.

Too bad you and your ilk weren't worried about debt then.

[Guest]

I think most Americans are like me and I assume you too. We are the Silent Majority that is quickly awakening. We just need to keep at it until we get back the power that we have let slip through our hands.



Most Americans are not like you - thank goodness.

Most Americans don't think it was very wise to cut taxes and, at the same time, start two wars. Both of which, by the way, you left for others to finish.

Too bad you and your ilk weren't worried about debt then.

We didn't start the wars. There is that little incident about 2 towers falling down, remember? Also, Obama escalated the war by sending 40,000 more troops over there. Cutting taxes stimulate the economy. Raise taxes and the stagnation results. Basic economy 101.

[Guest]

The ignorance is staggering.

Go ahead - get rid of 3/4 of the people who do all those services. 3/4 of the cops, firefighters and teachers (think classes are over crowded now?). Knock of 3/4 of the military, the food inspectors, the people who fix your roads (no, you NEVER demanded services from the government) and make sure your water is clean.

There's no argument against the fact that there are places that CAN be cut (we just had a bit of a bloodbath here at the Air Force and are getting word this'll happen again next year). But you're in a fantasyland if you think that you could just lop off 3/4.

Full time civilian employees:
2010 State government employee count: 3,809,697
2010 Local government employee count: 10,965,982
2009 Federal government employee count: 2,823,777 (latest figures available)

That's nearly 18 million employees. You think you can just make another 13+ million unemployed?

Going to have 1/4 the staff in areas like police, fire, prisons, air traffic, water terminals, hospitals, sewers, solid waste management, parks, electric and gas utilities, schools (K-12), libraries, judiciary, transit, financial administration, the military, financial administration, and a whole host of other things I haven't thought of?

You start off with the caterwauling about cops and firemen as they did in the $30 million dollar union campaign in Ohio to stir up the people. It does not deflect from the point.

I can't speak for everybody else, but I'm not calling for the elimination of essential services and I doubt anyone else is. We're calling for the end of the ceaseless demands for more and more compensation for public employees who now earn more that any comparable employee in the private sector who pays for all the largess that is doled out to them by entities that don't have to earn that money.

I want public employees to know that YOU WORK FOR US. We pay you and we also have the right to question the amount of pay WE give you.

Dispute that.

[Guest]

I was referring specifically to the post that Loveithere made saying that 3/4 of all public employees should be fired that KatzPajamas agreed with.

As far as the attitude in general, Richie, I hope you'll take the following in the spirit it is intended.

I think one of the worst things that has been happening to us as a country is that our drive for efficiency (a good thing) has devolved into a race to the bottom where corporations treat their people like commodities (unless you're on the Board - you get a golden parachute there). Companies used to say their employees were their most valuable asset. This is no longer true.

Many people say that at least we're not like Europe with their unemployment problems. Well, I just looked up those statistics. The two largest EU economies have shocking numbers. Germany's unemplyment rate is *5.8%*!!! France is higher - matching our 9.9% but they have notoriously generous unemployment benefits, even by EU standards.

The VERY socialistic Norway? 3.2%

You can play with the graphs here:
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:de&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=germany+unemployment+statistics#ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:de:fr&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en

So all those high-tax Eurozone countries (with the notable exceptions of the PIIGS countries Portugal/Ireland/Italy/Greece/Spain) seem to have better unemployment numbers than we do...

So tell me again how we're supposed to be better now that we're paid less, do more, get fewer benefits and are treated like commodities more than the EU?

A lot of truths that I was raised to believe are turning out to no longer be true.

[Guest]

I was referring specifically to the post that Loveithere made saying that 3/4 of all public employees should be fired that KatzPajamas agreed with.

As far as the attitude in general, Richie, I hope you'll take the following in the spirit it is intended.

I think one of the worst things that has been happening to us as a country is that our drive for efficiency (a good thing) has devolved into a race to the bottom where corporations treat their people like commodities (unless you're on the Board - you get a golden parachute there). Companies used to say their employees were their most valuable asset. This is no longer true.

Many people say that at least we're not like Europe with their unemployment problems. Well, I just looked up those statistics. The two largest EU economies have shocking numbers. Germany's unemplyment rate is *5.8%*!!! France is higher - matching our 9.9% but they have notoriously generous unemployment benefits, even by EU standards.

The VERY socialistic Norway? 3.2%

You can play with the graphs here:
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:de&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=germany+unemployment+statistics#ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:de:fr&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en

So all those high-tax Eurozone countries (with the notable exceptions of the PIIGS countries Portugal/Ireland/Italy/Greece/Spain) seem to have better unemployment numbers than we do...

So tell me again how we're supposed to be better now that we're paid less, do more, get fewer benefits and are treated like commodities more than the EU?

A lot of truths that I was raised to believe are turning out to no longer be true.

Well, if your true to your beliefs then join the occupiers on weekends and your free time. Do not talk the talk---walk the walk!!!!!!

[Guest]

We didn't start the wars. There is that little incident about 2 towers falling down, remember? Also, Obama escalated the war by sending 40,000 more troops over there. Cutting taxes stimulate the economy. Raise taxes and the stagnation results. Basic economy 101.




The two towers "falling down" had absolutely nothing to do with invading Iraq. Absolutely nothing !!!!

There is ZERO evidence Iraq had anything to do with 911. Junior and his minions admiited as much themselves. Al Quaeda had NO presence in Iraq prior to our invasion.

[Guest]

snip
I want public employees to know that YOU WORK FOR US. We pay you and we also have the right to question the amount of pay WE give you.

Dispute that.

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DO NOT WORK FOR YOU!
YOU DID NOT HIRE THEM!
YOU DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAYCHECKS!
DISPUTE THAT!

they work for a government entity and their paychecks are signed by that entity's fiscal officer/treasurer. they do not remit payments to you for their taxes, pensions, 401ks, and health covg. they do not request approval of their vacation time from you. DISPUTE THAT!

they go to work every day to provide a service: first responders, doctors, nurses, patient care givers, prison guards, garbage men, landscapers, motor vehicle inspectors, weights & measures inspectors, teachers, investigators, complaint bureau staff, professional credential reviewers/licensers, army, navy, marines, air force, coast guard, yada, yada, yada. those services are for YOU! use them or not! and if you don't want them - tell your elected officials to take them off the book...and then see what they tell you!

you do little more than fund local, county, state and federal governments. you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else. if you want to question the amount of $ paid to public employees or anything else...call your elected officials! they work for you because you elected them!

you can call all you want for the end of salary and benefit increases for public workers - and maybe someday you will be heard - but you will have to find a politician who will listen first! what i cannot understand is why you do not call for the elimination of waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs and services that your governments continue to support. that is where true government overspending is found.

[Guest]

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DO NOT WORK FOR YOU!
YOU DID NOT HIRE THEM!
YOU DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAYCHECKS!
DISPUTE THAT!

they work for a government entity and their paychecks are signed by that entity's fiscal officer/treasurer. they do not remit payments to you for their taxes, pensions, 401ks, and health covg. they do not request approval of their vacation time from you. DISPUTE THAT!

they go to work every day to provide a service: first responders, doctors, nurses, patient care givers, prison guards, garbage men, landscapers, motor vehicle inspectors, weights & measures inspectors, teachers, investigators, complaint bureau staff, professional credential reviewers/licensers, army, navy, marines, air force, coast guard, yada, yada, yada. those services are for YOU! use them or not! and if you don't want them - tell your elected officials to take them off the book...and then see what they tell you!

you do little more than fund local, county, state and federal governments. you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else. if you want to question the amount of $ paid to public employees or anything else...call your elected officials! they work for you because you elected them!

you can call all you want for the end of salary and benefit increases for public workers - and maybe someday you will be heard - but you will have to find a politician who will listen first! what i cannot understand is why you do not call for the elimination of waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs and services that your governments continue to support. that is where true government overspending is found.
Horse flaps... The stimulus added 100,000 useless government jobs and absolutely zero private sector jobs. The government is like a giant sponge soaking up all our resources. We are following the path of Greece and other top heavy governments. Public sector jobs and pensions will destroy the United States. PERIOD.

[Guest]

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DO NOT WORK FOR YOU!
YOU DID NOT HIRE THEM!
YOU DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAYCHECKS!
DISPUTE THAT!

they work for a government entity and their paychecks are signed by that entity's fiscal officer/treasurer. they do not remit payments to you for their taxes, pensions, 401ks, and health covg. they do not request approval of their vacation time from you. DISPUTE THAT!

they go to work every day to provide a service: first responders, doctors, nurses, patient care givers, prison guards, garbage men, landscapers, motor vehicle inspectors, weights & measures inspectors, teachers, investigators, complaint bureau staff, professional credential reviewers/licensers, army, navy, marines, air force, coast guard, yada, yada, yada. those services are for YOU! use them or not! and if you don't want them - tell your elected officials to take them off the book...and then see what they tell you!

you do little more than fund local, county, state and federal governments. you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else. if you want to question the amount of $ paid to public employees or anything else...call your elected officials! they work for you because you elected them!

you can call all you want for the end of salary and benefit increases for public workers - and maybe someday you will be heard - but you will have to find a politician who will listen first! what i cannot understand is why you do not call for the elimination of waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs and services that your governments continue to support. that is where true government overspending is found.

Ridiculous post. You show a complete ignorance of our system of government if you don't realize that the government works for the people. We have every right to get involved in that government and to demand accountability.

You don't think "public servants" work for the public? Dispute that?

What utter nonsense.

[Guest]

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DO NOT WORK FOR YOU!
YOU DID NOT HIRE THEM!
YOU DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAYCHECKS!
DISPUTE THAT!

they work for a government entity and their paychecks are signed by that entity's fiscal officer/treasurer. they do not remit payments to you for their taxes, pensions, 401ks, and health covg. they do not request approval of their vacation time from you. DISPUTE THAT!

they go to work every day to provide a service: first responders, doctors, nurses, patient care givers, prison guards, garbage men, landscapers, motor vehicle inspectors, weights & measures inspectors, teachers, investigators, complaint bureau staff, professional credential reviewers/licensers, army, navy, marines, air force, coast guard, yada, yada, yada. those services are for YOU! use them or not! and if you don't want them - tell your elected officials to take them off the book...and then see what they tell you!

you do little more than fund local, county, state and federal governments. you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else. if you want to question the amount of $ paid to public employees or anything else...call your elected officials! they work for you because you elected them!

you can call all you want for the end of salary and benefit increases for public workers - and maybe someday you will be heard - but you will have to find a politician who will listen first! what i cannot understand is why you do not call for the elimination of waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs and services that your governments continue to support. that is where true government overspending is found.


Looks like you truly do believe that the tail wags the dog!:oops:

[Guest]

Horse flaps... The stimulus added 100,000 useless government jobs and absolutely zero private sector jobs. The government is like a giant sponge soaking up all our resources. We are following the path of Greece and other top heavy governments. Public sector jobs and pensions will destroy the United States. PERIOD.

You're showing more ignorance here. (You seem to ignore the fact that we're being taxed at the lowest rate since the 1950s - I'd hardly call that "soaking up all our resources")

But rather than go down THAT rat-hole, I'll ask a question of you. Here in New Hampshire, stimulus funds were used on an existing roadway project to connect the state's largest airport to the major highway going through our 3 largest cities. The funds allowed us to speed up the construction so that the new highway is opening TODAY (11/11/11) instead of 2 years from now. On top of that, finishing it sooner also made it come in under budget.

Now.. The construction workers who were hired to speed up the job. They were employed by the private construction companies who won the contracts from the state. Are THOSE employees your idea of 'public' employees?

[Guest]

You're showing more ignorance here. (You seem to ignore the fact that we're being taxed at the lowest rate since the 1950s - I'd hardly call that "soaking up all our resources")

But rather than go down THAT rat-hole, I'll ask a question of you. Here in New Hampshire, stimulus funds were used on an existing roadway project to connect the state's largest airport to the major highway going through our 3 largest cities. The funds allowed us to speed up the construction so that the new highway is opening TODAY (11/11/11) instead of 2 years from now. On top of that, finishing it sooner also made it come in under budget.

Now.. The construction workers who were hired to speed up the job. They were employed by the private construction companies who won the contracts from the state. Are THOSE employees your idea of 'public' employees?

Check the stats and stop calling posters ignorant. You lose what little credibility that you have "soaked up." (Sorry, could not control myself)
The facts are that the Stimulus bill went to public employees and did not create one private sector job.

Note: Highway construction is supposed to be paid with the exorbitant gas tax we pay every day at the pump.

[Guest]

Ridiculous post. You show a complete ignorance of our system of government if you don't realize that the government works for the people. We have every right to get involved in that government and to demand accountability.

You don't think "public servants" work for the public? Dispute that?

What utter nonsense.

Looks like you truly do believe that the tail wags the dog!:oops:


to each of you: all levels of government employ workers to provide services for you - government employees do not work FOR you! if anyone demonstrates ignorance of the employment process, each of you appears to.

and to richie - in my post i did indicate that it is your right AND your responsibility to get involved where i posted, "you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else."

'public servants' SERVE the public - the word servant is the noun/subject derivative of the verb to serve - service is not employment unless an individual is indentured - got it?

[Guest]

to each of you: all levels of government employ workers to provide services for you - government employees do not work FOR you! if anyone demonstrates ignorance of the employment process, each of you appears to.

and to richie - in my post i did indicate that it is your right AND your responsibility to get involved where i posted, "you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else."

'public servants' SERVE the public - the word servant is the noun/subject derivative of the verb to serve - service is not employment unless an individual is indentured - got it?

I got it. I got it fine. You're another entitled worker, I suspect. Oh yeah, I got it.

[Guest]

Check the stats and stop calling posters ignorant. You lose what little credibility that you have "soaked up." (Sorry, could not control myself)
The facts are that the Stimulus bill went to public employees and did not create one private sector job.

Note: Highway construction is supposed to be paid with the exorbitant gas tax we pay every day at the pump.

and now who posts evidence of their lack of specific knowledge re the recovery act? lol

i believe the private sector solyndra company was a beneficiary of stimulus funding - was it not? http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/63393.html

so i further checked out recovery act financial distributions searching thru google...i suggest you try it...it's enlightening...especially when you can find so many private sector businesses that received stimulus money...which will blow your claim that 'rather than create one private sector job it went to public employees' right out of the water. check it out, please.

[Guest]

I got it. I got it fine. You're another entitled worker, I suspect. Oh yeah, I got it.

yes, richielion - entitled to go to work every day and serve the people of the state of n.j. to insure that their needs are met. and in exchange for that i will receive the salary and benefits delineated by my contract. that's as far as entitlement goes.

[Guest]

to each of you: all levels of government employ workers to provide services for you - government employees do not work FOR you! if anyone demonstrates ignorance of the employment process, each of you appears to.

and to richie - in my post i did indicate that it is your right AND your responsibility to get involved where i posted, "you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else."

'public servants' SERVE the public - the word servant is the noun/subject derivative of the verb to serve - service is not employment unless an individual is indentured - got it?

~Aside from Police and Firemen, please provide the list of public servants and what services they provide to ME
~Also provide what services could not be provided by the private sector more efficiently...ie UPS is a much more efficient and reliable source than USPS. (Post Office failed to overnight a book to my son in college. We paid for that service but didn't get it. When we sought refund we were told (direct quote)"It's just a book"...wtf. So we gave them a second chance. Bought him another book from half.com for $75.00. It got lost in Post Office's system somewhere on the other side of the country according to their tracking system. I called often for several months. The book never was found and no one seemed to care to call me back (as p romised). Unfortunately we didn't insure the process and were out the 75$. Since then, 4+years, we send everything UPS! Average 2 packages/month and haven't had a problem yet.
Forgot to mention that this same 24 year old son has had a subscription to Sporting News since he was 5. The publication comes to our mailbox on Thursdays like clockwork. Every year the March Madness issue fails to arrive and is never received...Hmmmm

[Guest]

yes, richielion - entitled to go to work every day and serve the people of the state of n.j. to insure that their needs are met. and in exchange for that i will receive the salary and benefits delineated by my contract. that's as far as entitlement goes.

Yes, and free to work with separation from the marketplace. Working for a entity that doesn't have to earn a profit to stay in business. So all you people just watch as everything falls around you and say "what does that have to do with me". Public sector union guys just refuse to get it.

[Guest]

Yes, and free to work with separation from the marketplace. Working for a entity that doesn't have to earn a profit to stay in business. So all you people just watch as everything falls around you and say "what does that have to do with me". Public sector union guys just refuse to get it.


Be gentle...sometimes the truth is so personal and painful to accept that the only way to survive it is to remain in the denial bubble.

[Guest]

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DO NOT WORK FOR YOU!
YOU DID NOT HIRE THEM!
YOU DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAYCHECKS!
DISPUTE THAT!

they work for a government entity and their paychecks are signed by that entity's fiscal officer/treasurer. they do not remit payments to you for their taxes, pensions, 401ks, and health covg. they do not request approval of their vacation time from you. DISPUTE THAT!

they go to work every day to provide a service: first responders, doctors, nurses, patient care givers, prison guards, garbage men, landscapers, motor vehicle inspectors, weights & measures inspectors, teachers, investigators, complaint bureau staff, professional credential reviewers/licensers, army, navy, marines, air force, coast guard, yada, yada, yada. those services are for YOU! use them or not! and if you don't want them - tell your elected officials to take them off the book...and then see what they tell you!

you do little more than fund local, county, state and federal governments. you elect people to make decisions for you re how your government will be run and how THEIR employees will be paid. and if/when you do not like the decisions that are made, it is your right and responsibility to vote for someone else. if you want to question the amount of $ paid to public employees or anything else...call your elected officials! they work for you because you elected them!

you can call all you want for the end of salary and benefit increases for public workers - and maybe someday you will be heard - but you will have to find a politician who will listen first! what i cannot understand is why you do not call for the elimination of waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs and services that your governments continue to support. that is where true government overspending is found.

Every cliche that I have heard about public employees has been verified.

[Guest]

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DO NOT WORK FOR YOU!
YOU DID NOT HIRE THEM!
YOU DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAYCHECKS!
DISPUTE THAT!

they work for a government entity and their paychecks are signed by that entity's fiscal officer/treasurer........

.....what i cannot understand is why you do not call for the elimination of waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs and services that your governments continue to support. that is where true government overspending is found.

And right here we have the REASON there is "waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs that your governments continue to support":

The government EMPLOYEES who waste, commit the fraud and abuse of taxpayer money taken from them, and who DO NOTHING to EXPOSE the lazy, incompetent, ENTITLED employees, managers, and union reps that perpetuate this crap!!!!!

[Guest]

And right here we have the REASON there is "waste, fraud, abuse and useless, overlapping programs that your governments continue to support":

The government EMPLOYEES who waste, commit the fraud and abuse of taxpayer money taken from them, and who DO NOTHING to EXPOSE the lazy, incompetent, ENTITLED employees, managers, and union reps that perpetuate this crap!!!!!

you are absolutely RIGHT! it's just too bad that YOU do NOTHING to see that they are removed from office every time they come up for election!

[Guest]

Yes, and free to work with separation from the marketplace. Working for a entity that doesn't have to earn a profit to stay in business. So all you people just watch as everything falls around you and say "what does that have to do with me". Public sector union guys just refuse to get it.

we faced reality every time we went to the marketplace to purchase our essentials.

and during working hours we faced reality every time a snivling, whining, complaining and abusive customer had to be confronted, dealt with and SERVED!

[Guest]

we faced reality every time we went to the marketplace to purchase our essentials.

and during working hours we faced reality every time a snivling, whining, complaining and abusive customer had to be confronted, dealt with and SERVED!

Those customers are your bosses. You work for the taxpayers, don't like it try getting a private sector job. I'm sure you would get an attitude adjustment seminar.

[Guest]

we faced reality every time we went to the marketplace to purchase our essentials.

and during working hours we faced reality every time a snivling, whining, complaining and abusive customer had to be confronted, dealt with and SERVED!

I'm not talking about what your spending. I'm talking about what you're earning and who you're earning it from. You're earning it from an entity that doesn't have to show profit. Your production has nothing to do with money earned. Your boss may have to be concerned with a budget, but it will never result in business failure, bankruptcy or a possible plant closing.

That's what I'm talking about. You don't have to generate business and revenue in selling or servicing a product. You are 100% overhead.

[Guest]

~Aside from Police and Firemen, please provide the list of public servants and what services they provide to ME
~Also provide what services could not be provided by the private sector more efficiently...ie UPS is a much more efficient and reliable source than USPS.
snipped your example of a singular personal dilemma.

public works employees maintain the roads you drive on and plow the snow in winter and collect trash.

jail/prison guards keep those deemed criminals off of the street when incarcerated.

inspectors check to make sure your food is safe to eat from the grower to the processor to the restaurant that prepares and serves it; that scales weigh accurately in grocery stores and doctor's offices and ups facilities, and airports; that a gallon of gas from the pump is a gallon.

investigators respond to complaints re consumer protection laws to make sure consumers receive the protections the law affords them; to complaints of abuses allegedly perpetuated by health care providers; to complaints made by seniors re abuses inflicted upon them.

credential reviewers insure that your doctors, nurses, physician assistants, pharmacists, veterinarians, real estate agents, therapists, hair stylists, nail techs, barbers, plumbers, electricians, hearing aid providers, optometrists and opthalmic techs and morticians are properly licensed.

judges adjudicate allegations of criminal and felonius actions and prevent those convicted of same from doing it to you; and the judicial system has a staff of public defenders prepared to represent you should you need their service.

clerical support staff administer the recording of your birth and are awaiting the recording of your death; or the payment of your taxes; or the issuance of a motor vehicle license.

the municipal utilities authority insures that your home has potable water for your use and/or a sewer system that works [where appropriate].

teachers educate your children and the children of the future generation who will be entrusted to take care of you and serve your needs.

the transportation and bridge authorities and the faa ensure the safety of your travel.

a state banking/insurance dept will make sure that your money is in safe-keeping and that your investment advisor is legally credentialed.

an environmental agency will make sure that the air you breath is as safe as it can be.

a state board of public utilities will evaluate a provider's request for a fee increase and determine if it can be granted or modified or denied so that you should not be overcharged.

need i go on?

and as far as the private sector providing these services more efficiently - why have they NOT already done so? if ANYONE could come up with a way to do so AND be able to make a profit while doing so, i am sure they would have done so!

[Guest]

public works employees maintain the roads you drive on and plow the snow in winter and collect trash....~can be done by private companies

jail/prison guards keep those deemed criminals off of the street when incarcerated....~I think some states are moving to contracting this job out also

inspectors check to make sure your food is safe to eat from the grower to the processor to the restaurant that prepares and serves it; ...~buy alot of local foods from local growers, including range beef and chicken and milk...that scales weigh accurately in grocery stores and doctor's offices and ups facilities, and airports; that a gallon of gas from the pump is a gallon....~Wow, these make my friends and neighbors that work in these places sound like crooks that have to be kept in line...

investigators respond to complaints re consumer protection laws to make sure consumers receive the protections the law affords them;...~can be done by private enterprise...maybe even with less corruption? to complaints of abuses allegedly perpetuated by health care providers; ...~abuse by health care providers? not saying it doesn't happen but its an oxymoron for 100% of the health care facilities that I have been associated withto complaints made by seniors re abuses inflicted upon them.

credential reviewers insure that your doctors, nurses, physician assistants, pharmacists, veterinarians, real estate agents, therapists, hair stylists, nail techs, barbers, plumbers, electricians, hearing aid providers, optometrists and opthalmic techs and morticians are properly licensed.....~more distrust...why are all the honest people working only in the government???

judges adjudicate allegations of criminal and felonius actions and prevent those convicted of same from doing it to you; ...~many lawyers are private entities...I'd hire one of them over a public defender any dayand the judicial system has a staff of public defenders prepared to represent you should you need their service.....~Who is inspecting their work for accuracy?

clerical support staff administer the recording of your birth and are awaiting the recording of your death; or the payment of your taxes; or the issuance of a motor vehicle license.....~I'll give you this one, although I think it could be contracted out

the municipal utilities authority insures that your home has potable water for your use and/or a sewer system that works [where appropriate].....~Live out in the booneys with a well and septic tank...I pay a very nice young man who started his own business to come and clean the septic tank when necessary...he went to school with my middle daughter. I tutored him in math in 5th grade and I like him!

teachers educate your children and the children of the future generation who will be entrusted to take care of you and serve your needs....~My kids all went to private schools from kindergarden until graduating from private colleges...Oh, I did homeschool my daughters for 7th and 8th grade since our little catholic grade school only went up to 6th grade. Took the son to a catholic school 16miles away for 7th and 8th grade because he thought he could be a football star :p

the transportation and bridge authorities and the faa ....~wouldn't fly if you paid me, Mr. Katz is the only one who has permission to grope me :pensure the safety of your travel.

a state banking/insurance dept will make sure that your money is in safe-keeping and that your investment advisor is legally credentialed.....~again, distrust of local companies? but hey, where were those state people when the banks were forced to make loans to people that could not afford to pay?

an environmental agency will make sure that the air you breath is as safe as it can be.....~Surely you jest

a state board of public utilities will evaluate a provider's request for a fee increase and determine if it can be granted or modified or denied so that you should not be overcharged.....~more distrust?


by the way...Mr. Katz reminded me that we have a volunteer fire dept in our township:p

[Guest]

njbchbum~I see you snipped my account of a "singular" personal dilemna...Actually is was several personal dilemna's made by a singular government run entity.

[Guest]

I'm not talking about what your spending. I'm talking about what you're earning and who you're earning it from. You're earning it from an entity that doesn't have to show profit. Your production has nothing to do with money earned. Your boss may have to be concerned with a budget, but it will never result in business failure, bankruptcy or a possible plant closing.

That's what I'm talking about. You don't have to generate business and revenue in selling or servicing a product. You are 100% overhead.

"You're earning it from an entity that doesn't have to show profit." - the entity, by law, is not allowed to earn a profit.

overhead - yes - but one which is required by law and can only be done away with by law.

a budget failure WILL result in the reduction/elimination of a service or a reduction in force - similar to the private sector actions you cite - as public employees are laid off and out of work and a program/service is no longer provided.

BUT, as in the private sector, when the leader FAILS to properly fund their accounts - like pensions and benefits and matched 401ks - thousands of lives can be ruined.

[Guest]

Public sector jobs were supposed to be low paying in return for reasonable pensions after many years of servitude to the communities. After many years of "bargaining" public service jobs now make twice their equal of private sector jobs. Disgraceful.
So now public sector jobs pay twice as much as private sector and have pensions more then twice the size of Social Security. What makes public servants think that they should be more comfortable and financially secure then their employers, the private sector. Just because you knew a politician or a crony that got you on the dole?

[Guest]

Those customers are your bosses. You work for the taxpayers, don't like it try getting a private sector job. I'm sure you would get an attitude adjustment seminar.

those customers are the people we SERVE. we are not indentured to them; therefore, they are NOT our employers!

if you are inferring that i never worked beyond the confines of my public employers, you would be WRONG AGAIN! i cut my teeth in the private industries of insurance and healthcare! at the tender age of 21 i was flown around the united states and canada - as a representative of the corporate office - where i conducted salary surveys and developed compensation plans for corporate and branch offices. i had considerable impact on the earnings of every employee in those private sector offices - and indirectly on you and how much your insurance policies cost you! and after working in a private hospital as the 2nd in command of h.r. and employee relations, i realized that retirement security lay in the public rather than private sector. thus i accepted the salary and benefits cut and sought refuge in the playground of state employment!

so there!

[Guest]

those customers are the people we SERVE. we are not indentured to them; therefore, they are NOT our employers!

if you are inferring that i never worked beyond the confines of my public employers, you would be WRONG AGAIN! i cut my teeth in the private industries of insurance and healthcare! at the tender age of 21 i was flown around the united states and canada - as a representative of the corporate office - where i conducted salary surveys and developed compensation plans for corporate and branch offices. i had considerable impact on the earnings of every employee in those private sector offices - and indirectly on you and how much your insurance policies cost you! and after working in a private hospital as the 2nd in command of h.r. and employee relations, i realized that retirement security lay in the public rather than private sector. thus i accepted the salary and benefits cut and sought refuge in the playground of state employment!

so there!

There are many people who cannot hack the private sector and take refuse under the nanny state system. It is safe and secure and there is almost zero chance you will get fired for incompetence. Lucky you.barf

[Guest]

Public sector jobs were supposed to be low paying in return for reasonable pensions after many years of servitude to the communities. After many years of "bargaining" public service jobs now make twice their equal of private sector jobs. Disgraceful.
So now public sector jobs pay twice as much as private sector and have pensions more then twice the size of Social Security. What makes public servants think that they should be more comfortable and financially secure then their employers, the private sector. Just because you knew a politician or a crony that got you on the dole?

public sector jobs WERE low paying [and some still are]. when public employees left their positions for jobs in the increasingly successful private sector, the public sector was placed in a position of 'catch-up'. public sector salaries today are generous - but public employees are not collecting bonuses and profit-sharing checks and participating in stock option plans as some private sector employees are doing. and the vast majority of public sector employees do not have expense accounts and corporate transportation...only the elite executive officers in govt have those perks.

you would have to show me statistics to prove your statement that public sector salaries are twice that of their employment equivalent in the private sector - back it up with fact and not the words of someone who wrote some article somewhere.

i choose to ignore your tired old rant that public employees work for the private sector - it is boring me.

and as far as getting my public employment from a politician or a crony - you show your ignorance AGAIN. i took an employment test for my first position with the state of nj and was placed on a list to wait for a job opening. i then interviewed and was one several new hires. after successfully completing my six month working test period and achieving permanent employment status, i was permitted to apply for promotions when the positions became available; but before i could be interviewed i had to take a promotional exam and get on another list! had i not placed as one of the top three candidates - i mught never have been promoted!

loveithere - i have enjoyed pointing out your misconceptions of me and of life in the public sector. i had hoped to provide some enlightenment into both subjects. however, your CONTINUING demeaning of and disdain for public sector employees is a drone with which i cannot abide. you give me a headache! therefore, may i bid you and your lack of gratitude adieu!

[Guest]

There are many people who cannot hack the private sector and take refuse under the nanny state system. It is safe and secure and there is almost zero chance you will get fired for incompetence. Lucky you.barf

as you see from my subsequent post - I CUT MY TEETH IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. and i was bright enough to see that there was and still is safety in the refuge of the public sector. i am proud to have worked there and served well. and i am grateful that i was able to achieve a significant retirement portfolio between my private AND public sector employment!

[Guest]

njbchbum~I see you snipped my account of a "singular" personal dilemna...Actually is was several personal dilemna's made by a singular government run entity.

whatever!

[Guest]

OMG, katz! you asked for a "list of public servants and what services they provide to ME" and i provided it. and you come back at me with a display of opinion that i did NOT ask for! i could counter each of your points - but that would be a waste of my time and limited typing ability. so i will try to broad brush your entire dissertation and tell you that there are BAD people in this world and the public sector is out there every day to protect you from them; and there are services available to you that you can choose to take advantage of or not...regardless - they are still there for you AND FOR OTHERS!

AMEN!

[Guest]

OMG, katz! you asked for a "list of public servants and what services they provide to ME" and i provided it. and you come back at me with a display of opinion that i did NOT ask for! i could counter each of your points - but that would be a waste of my time and limited typing ability. so i will try to broad brush your entire dissertation and tell you that there are BAD people in this world and the public sector is out there every day to protect you from them; and there are services available to you that you can choose to take advantage of or not...regardless - they are still there for you AND FOR OTHERS!

AMEN!

OMG! Who protects me from the public sector? ...

[Guest]

OMG, katz! you asked for a "list of public servants and what services they provide to ME" and i provided it. and you come back at me with a display of opinion that i did NOT ask for! i could counter each of your points - but that would be a waste of my time and limited typing ability. so i will try to broad brush your entire dissertation and tell you that there are BAD people in this world and the public sector is out there every day to protect you from them; and there are services available to you that you can choose to take advantage of or not...regardless - they are still there for you AND FOR OTHERS!

AMEN!

OK, I'm ignorant and boring. Another piece of evidence that public sector people feel entitled and hold the taxpayers-employers in contempt. I am grateful to have read your posts. Can I use them in my e-mails?

[Guest]

OK, I'm ignorant and boring. Another piece of evidence that public sector people feel entitled and hold the taxpayers-employers in contempt. I am grateful to have read your posts. Can I use them in my e-mails?

NO EMAILING MY POSTS!

i don't believe i indicated that i find you boring and ignorant in general...you are reading what you want into my posts.

you are ANYTHING BUT boring in matters OTHER THAN the private sector vs the public sector!

taxpayers who do not accept that the vast majority of public sector employees are just doing their jobs to the best of their ability to insure that the needs of all residents are provided for are held in contempt by the public sector employee...along with the sniveling, whining and abusive taxpayer at any customer service location!

[Guest]

OMG! Who protects me from the public sector? ...

good question! should you ever find the answer you can prob make a fortune selling it!

[Guest]

good question! Should you ever find the answer you can prob make a fortune selling it!

I rest my case...

[Guest]

I rest my case...

thank goodness!

[Guest]

njbchbum; all I'm going to say in response to your numerous attempts to cloud the issue of, and you attempt to defend your job as essential, is that your responses literally reek of "entitlement". Your attitude is the reason people hate the public unions.

[Guest]

njbchbum; all I'm going to say in response to your numerous attempts to cloud the issue of, and you attempt to defend your job as essential, is that your responses literally reek of "entitlement". Your attitude is the reason people hate the public unions.

lol! good one!

[Guest]

NO EMAILING MY POSTS!

i don't believe i indicated that i find you boring and ignorant in general...you are reading what you want into my posts.

you are ANYTHING BUT boring in matters OTHER THAN the private sector vs the public sector!

taxpayers who do not accept that the vast majority of public sector employees are just doing their jobs to the best of their ability to insure that the needs of all residents are provided for are held in contempt by the public sector employee...along with the sniveling, whining and abusive taxpayer at any customer service location!

Abusive taxpayer? I feel you have set back public relations quite a bit. I will never look at a public sector employee the same again.

[Guest]

Abusive taxpayer? I feel you have set back public relations quite a bit. I will never look at a public sector employee the same again.

i guess you have never been on the receiving end of an irate customer! it doesn't matter how you look at them really. just treat them with respect. if you don't receive respect from them - call their supervisor - just like you would do with a private sector employee.

[Guest]

I served my country, I know irate and I know how to handle it and I bet I didn't get one tenth of your salary.

[Guest]

Check the stats and stop calling posters ignorant. You lose what little credibility that you have "soaked up." (Sorry, could not control myself)
The facts are that the Stimulus bill went to public employees and did not create one private sector job.

Note: Highway construction is supposed to be paid with the exorbitant gas tax we pay every day at the pump.

#1, you didn't answer my question. Do you consider those employees of the construction company (and NH is a right-to-work state so there's a good shot at least some were non-union) are public or private workers?

#2, the gas tax hasn't covered highway construction and maintenance costs for quite a few years. Are you in favor of hiking the gas tax for that purpose?

[Guest]

rubicon - i did read your entire post. and i found that it is unfortunate that you are not an equal opportunity credit giver so that you could recognize the good works done by many of the public workers who do not feather bed, connive and/or malinger - but who get up every day and go to work to serve all of the residents of their state, county or municipality.

public employees in n.j. do have a legal right to representation and collective bargaining, given to them in the legislation thru the new jersey employer-employee relations act.

and our gov has assured all n.j. public workers that his recent pension and benefits reform legislation will ensure retirement pensions and benefits for future retirees for years to come. this might be because pension fund members will be paying an increased contribution for both their pension and health benefits pkgs; and because the state is finally going to start paying their share of pension funding - which it had not done for 17 of 10 years. perhaps other govt leaders can take a page from his book.

was glad to read that you can be equally upset by corporate leaders, too.

njbchbum I just caught sight of your reply. Let me say that I am sorry my comments were not clearer. I did not mean to imply that all union workers malinger, etc. The initial union movement did much to help the average worker. However over the years unions have shifted their roles in a manner which is counter-productive. they did so in order to justify their existence.
I put myself through college night and so i worked days and was forced to join two different unions. I witnessed first hand how some workers with the blessings of unon bosses game the system. these are the kind of guys i jokingly say created workers compensation. Let's take the guy I know who was seen sticking his barfe foot i the snow. when one of my friends ask him what he was doing he said "I have a work comp hearing and I need to get my foot and leg cold and red before I appear in front of the judge" Many of my co-workers were not happy with nonsense like this because they recognized it reflected badly on them. The situation has only gotten worse over the years. Salary and benefits are way out of balance with comparable private sector jobs.

You might be surprised to hear me say that by some measure I want to see collective bargaining. However my rationale would be different than what union bosses are doing because they are pricing workers right out of the market...that is the economic reality . another aspect of this is that unions have such an influence over politics and forcing workers to vote for people and issues they would not otherwise.

This issue is not personal its economic. conersely I will tell you I am not happy about the 1% either. However, if anyone thinks they can get the best of them they might want to look back in history. this 1% has the means and resoruces to escape much at present and I suspect creative enough to adjust for any future changes

So again my apology because my comments seem to have misled you on my thinking

[Guest]

i guess you have never been on the receiving end of an irate customer! it doesn't matter how you look at them really. just treat them with respect. if you don't receive respect from them - call their supervisor - just like you would do with a private sector employee.

Having worked in both the private and the public arena, in my OPINION, the absolute worst irate customers, are those who hand you their MEDICAID card! Curiously if the customer hands you a PRIVATE insurance card and they have good reason to be irate, they can be dealt with quite easily with a simple Please forgive our mistake! Those who have free coverage and therefore pretty much everything for free, will not be appeased. They have usually not been wronged, but pursue the issue to the very top, having their arses smooched all the way up! ...FACTS!

[Guest]

Having worked in both the private and the public arena, in my OPINION, the absolute worst irate customers, are those who hand you their MEDICAID card! Curiously if the customer hands you a PRIVATE insurance card and they have good reason to be irate, they can be dealt with quite easily with a simple Please forgive our mistake! Those who have free coverage and therefore pretty much everything for free, will not be appeased. They have usually not been wronged, but pursue the issue to the very top, having their arses smooched all the way up! ...FACTS!

i'm hoping you meant to post more to the point that most/many of the irate customers with whom you have dealt were those who provided medicare cards; and did not intend to broad brush all medicare insureds as irate and not capable of being appeased.

and in my experience in both employment arenas - some of my worst 'customers' often responded with a tantrum to my explanations of fact, law, rule and/or reg with the phrase, "well, don't you know who i am?' or "well, i'll have to write my representative about you!" or best of all..."well, that can't possibly be right!". my favorite resolution to those incidents was when i received an apology from a higher up for having been insulted and treated as poorly as i was by the 'customer'!

[Guest]

i'm hoping you meant to post more to the point that most/many of the irate customers with whom you have dealt were those who provided medicare cards; and did not intend to broad brush all medicare insureds as irate and not capable of being appeased.

and in my experience in both employment arenas - some of my worst 'customers' often responded with a tantrum to my explanations of fact, law, rule and/or reg with the phrase, "well, don't you know who i am?' or "well, i'll have to write my representative about you!" or best of all..."well, that can't possibly be right!". my favorite resolution to those incidents was when i received an apology from a higher up for having been insulted and treated as poorly as i was by the 'customer'!


Those with MEDICAID cards (not Medicare) usually are harder to please, and usually these folks have complaints that are not based on reality, and when they do have a complaint, it is rare that a resolution can be found to satisfy them, even when that resolution is above and beyond what has been offered to the patients with private insurance. Not all Medicaid folks are difficult to please...no biggy, just throwing it out there.

[Guest]

njbchbum I just caught sight of your reply. Let me say that I am sorry my comments were not clearer. I did not mean to imply that all union workers malinger, etc. The initial union movement did much to help the average worker. However over the years unions have shifted their roles in a manner which is counter-productive. they did so in order to justify their existence.
I put myself through college night and so i worked days and was forced to join two different unions. I witnessed first hand how some workers with the blessings of unon bosses game the system. these are the kind of guys i jokingly say created workers compensation. Let's take the guy I know who was seen sticking his barfe foot i the snow. when one of my friends ask him what he was doing he said "I have a work comp hearing and I need to get my foot and leg cold and red before I appear in front of the judge" Many of my co-workers were not happy with nonsense like this because they recognized it reflected badly on them. The situation has only gotten worse over the years. Salary and benefits are way out of balance with comparable private sector jobs.

You might be surprised to hear me say that by some measure I want to see collective bargaining. However my rationale would be different than what union bosses are doing because they are pricing workers right out of the market...that is the economic reality . another aspect of this is that unions have such an influence over politics and forcing workers to vote for people and issues they would not otherwise.

This issue is not personal its economic. conersely I will tell you I am not happy about the 1% either. However, if anyone thinks they can get the best of them they might want to look back in history. this 1% has the means and resoruces to escape much at present and I suspect creative enough to adjust for any future changes

So again my apology because my comments seem to have misled you on my thinking

rubicon - we're cool.

every organization reinvents itself, as and when required, in order to continue on, unions included. my best example being the mother's march of dimes...once polio was 'conquered' they had no reason to exit and could have faded away. instead the organization became one intending to fight birth defects! they reinvented themselves, justified themselves and they live on ['tho there doesn't seem to be any counter-productivity in their existence!]. to what is a union counter-productive? the nj state govt unions with which i am familiar seem to be effective in benefitting their members - isn't this what they are supposed to do? if so, they do not seem counter-productive to THEIR main purpose.

when i was employed in the private sector i probably saw more or as many incidents of favoritism at all levels of the corporation as i saw among govt appointees. favoritism was less prevalent among the public sector classified employees because union members would be QUICK to pick up on and file complaints about their perceptions!

you post that salary and benefits are out of balance with comparable private sector jobs....well, that is a whole other kettle of fish! as a former compensation analyst i can find you statistics to counter that...but all that would be is a battle of statistics and opinions on same. in some areas they are and in some they are not and in some areas the differential is justified and in some they are not, etc. and i venture to think that some private sector unions have got it all over govt unions!

re the exercise of political influence - yikes! like that does NOT go on in the private sector?!?!?! on a number of occasions i have been told by my private sector friends of the intimidations that take place right in the workplace where emps are not only 'urged' to vote for a candidate BUT to contribute to the campaign, too! but how is that unlike being 'urged' to buy tix to the policeman's ball? influence is a door that swings both ways. both private and public sectors and special interest groups all have lobbyists crawling the halls of all levels of govt in hopes of prevailing for their clients. a review of the political contributions of any candidate will show that private and public sector entites are guilty of applyng such pressure! some folks feel pressured to contribute and some give willingly; some resent that their $ is used for a candidate they do not personally support - but they do not usually resent when a winning candidate is in their corner!

and as for the 1%!!!!! well, there will always be a 1%. and if people resent the 1% - why do they try so hard to get into it rather than remain pleased that they are in the 99%?

ciao, rubicon!

[Guest]

Those with MEDICAID cards (not Medicare) usually are harder to please, and usually these folks have complaints that are not based on reality, and when they do have a complaint, it is rare that a resolution can be found to satisfy them, even when that resolution is above and beyond what has been offered to the patients with private insurance. Not all Medicaid folks are difficult to please...no biggy, just throwing it out there.

oh, katz! of course i meant medicaid and not medicare. must be my digital dyslexia acting up again - too much time at the computer! sorry to make you type out that clarification!

[Guest]

rubicon - we're cool.

every organization reinvents itself, as and when required, in order to continue on, unions included. my best example being the mother's march of dimes...once polio was 'conquered' they had no reason to exit and could have faded away. instead the organization became one intending to fight birth defects! they reinvented themselves, justified themselves and they live on ['tho there doesn't seem to be any counter-productivity in their existence!]. to what is a union counter-productive? the nj state govt unions with which i am familiar seem to be effective in benefitting their members - isn't this what they are supposed to do? if so, they do not seem counter-productive to THEIR main purpose.

when i was employed in the private sector i probably saw more or as many incidents of favoritism at all levels of the corporation as i saw among govt appointees. favoritism was less prevalent among the public sector classified employees because union members would be QUICK to pick up on and file complaints about their perceptions!

you post that salary and benefits are out of balance with comparable private sector jobs....well, that is a whole other kettle of fish! as a former compensation analyst i can find you statistics to counter that...but all that would be is a battle of statistics and opinions on same. in some areas they are and in some they are not and in some areas the differential is justified and in some they are not, etc. and i venture to think that some private sector unions have got it all over govt unions!

re the exercise of political influence - yikes! like that does NOT go on in the private sector?!?!?! on a number of occasions i have been told by my private sector friends of the intimidations that take place right in the workplace where emps are not only 'urged' to vote for a candidate BUT to contribute to the campaign, too! but how is that unlike being 'urged' to buy tix to the policeman's ball? influence is a door that swings both ways. both private and public sectors and special interest groups all have lobbyists crawling the halls of all levels of govt in hopes of prevailing for their clients. a review of the political contributions of any candidate will show that private and public sector entites are guilty of applyng such pressure! some folks feel pressured to contribute and some give willingly; some resent that their $ is used for a candidate they do not personally support - but they do not usually resent when a winning candidate is in their corner!

and as for the 1%!!!!! well, there will always be a 1%. and if people resent the 1% - why do they try so hard to get into it rather than remain pleased that they are in the 99%?

ciao, rubicon!

njbchbum: For information purposes only I spent half my career in HRD as manager overseeing job reclassification, including writing new job descriptions, rating them building a merit salary metric system, etc. I also agree with your issues regarding the private sector. While I do not wabt to beat a dead horse, the critical difference and it is huge, is that corporation pay private sector workers while taxpayer foot the bill for public unions.

I am done here

Ciao

[Guest]

Ohio voters rejected limits on collective bargaining of unionized state employees with 60% of the vote. The AFL-CIO is very pleased this morning.

I guess we can now ignore any Ohioan who complains about their high taxes. They've now given up that privilege. Maybe Ohioans don't know that they actually pay these people?

Without a union, the individual is nothing against a corporation. Without collective bargaining the union loses its reason for existence.

[Guest]

Without a union, the individual is nothing against a corporation. Without collective bargaining the union loses its reason for existence.

Are you implying that all corporations would mistreat their employees if it weren't for the union keeping them in line?!?

[Guest]

Are you implying that all corporations would mistreat their employees if it weren't for the union keeping them in line?!?

Some people have good experiences. Some don't.

[Guest]

Some people have good experiences. Some don't.

...This is a little different from your earlier blanket statement? "Without a union, the individual is nothing against a corporation"

[Guest]

Without a union, the individual is nothing against a corporation. Without collective bargaining the union loses its reason for existence.

Maybe the individual should be part of the corporation. What is this them against us attitude?

[Guest]

Without a union, the individual is nothing against a corporation. Without collective bargaining the union loses its reason for existence.

I wasn't talking about corporations. I can agree with you on corporations. That's the private sector, and those union men have to negotiate with their employers on a fair deal that earns them a living while keeping the company alive. Fail that and the company goes out of business and there goes their job.

What the vote in Ohio was for were public employee unions. Those people who work for you and me. Those people that want their money while the foundations are crumbling under their feet. Those people who don't give a rat's patootie about the problems you and your family have with the ever escalating taxes to try to deal with the ever escalating bill that your representatives signed off on with your money to these disconnected people.

There is absolutely no correlation in my mind between public employee union people and their private sector union employee counterparts. It's apples and oranges.

[Guest]

...This is a little different from your earlier blanket statement? "Without a union, the individual is nothing against a corporation"

OK, let me step back a little because you and loveithere and tony are insisting on talking about private sector unions.

If you are a blue collar employee or a lower echelon employee for a corporation, there is a good chance that you are expendable to that corporation. It's a good chance that you are a face in the crowd easily replaced.

Now, you organize and become a "union" of employees and you have some power. Now you have grievance and arbitration rights when your employer wants to discipline you in some way. It can no longer be frivolous. I can go into intense detail on all aspects of union life having spent my entire life working as a union employee. Surprised?

But, as a union employee I worked for a union that boosted my standard of living in the halcyon days of intense economic growth and prosperity. My company made money and we made sure we got our rightful share in terms of wages and benefits.

Now, with the economic downturn and changes in the way we can organize, the landscape has changed. In order to survive my union has made major concessions because of the new economic order and we've adjusted work rules and compensation, and even reworked our own union pension plans to preserve some semblance of a dignified retirement when that time comes. That time has also been pushed back to a higher "full retirement" age.

Does that sound like anything the public sector will do? Ha ha ha ha ha.......

[Guest]

OK, let me step back a little because you and loveithere and tony are insisting on talking about private sector unions.

If you are a blue collar employee or a lower echelon employee for a corporation, there is a good chance that you are expendable to that corporation. It's a good chance that you are a face in the crowd easily replaced.

Now, you organize and become a "union" of employees and you have some power. Now you have grievance and arbitration rights when your employer wants to discipline you in some way. It can no longer be frivolous. I can go into intense detail on all aspects of union life having spent my entire life working as a union employee. Surprised?

But, as a union employee I worked for a union that boosted my standard of living in the halcyon days of intense economic growth and prosperity. My company made money and we made sure we got our rightful share in terms of wages and benefits.

Now, with the economic downturn and changes in the way we can organize, the landscape has changed. In order to survive my union has made major concessions because of the new economic order and we've adjusted work rules and compensation, and even reworked our own union pension plans to preserve some semblance of a dignified retirement when that time comes. That time has also been pushed back to a higher "full retirement" age.

Does that sound like anything the public sector will do? Ha ha ha ha ha.......

NOPE...I know of what you speak.
Mr. Katz has been a Teamster about 40 years. While I on the other hand, manage 38 employees who are public union members who are still at "30 years and out", collecting immediately no matter their age and free full health benies...This recent voting day in Ohio was topic for some interesting discussions among my peeps and I had to remain silent! Ya gotta know that was difficult for me.LOL

[Guest]

NOPE...I know of what you speak.
Mr. Katz has been a Teamster about 40 years. While I on the other hand, manage 38 employees who are public union members who are still at "30 years and out", collecting immediately no matter their age and free full health benies...This recent voting day in Ohio was topic for some interesting discussions among my peeps and I had to remain silent! Ya gotta know that was difficult for me.LOL

Mr. Katz and I have a lifetime of Teamsters Experience between us. I was a Teamsters member for 45 years. The life was good to me. The men who are still working are making sacrifices now. It'll never be the same.

[Guest]

I wasn't talking about corporations. I can agree with you on corporations. That's the private sector, and those union men have to negotiate with their employers on a fair deal that earns them a living while keeping the company alive. Fail that and the company goes out of business and there goes their job.

What the vote in Ohio was for were public employee unions. Those people who work for you and me. Those people that want their money while the foundations are crumbling under their feet. Those people who don't give a rat's patootie about the problems you and your family have with the ever escalating taxes to try to deal with the ever escalating bill that your representatives signed off on with your money to these disconnected people.

There is absolutely no correlation in my mind between public employee union people and their private sector union employee counterparts. It's apples and oranges.

Two public unions in New York State have settled for 0 percent raises for the next three years and have also settled for higher health care premiums. Seventy six thousand of them have settled for nine furlough days without pay. They are already paid less than it takes to live in NYC and buy a home there.

Could you imagine the disadvantage that they would be at if they were fragmented with a law like Ohio's?

[Guest]

Mr. Katz and I have a lifetime of Teamsters Experience between us. I was a Teamsters member for 45 years. The life was good to me. The men who are still working are making sacrifices now. It'll never be the same.

Here's what Mr. Katz says-"We worked our @$$es off and the Company took care of business. The worse thing that happened was when the public unions got really rolling...those mamby pamby cry babies!"...Yes, djplong, this is just his OPINION

[Guest]

[QUOTE=tonyafd;417342]Two public unions in New York State have settled for 0 percent raises for the next three years and have also settled for higher health care premiums. Seventy six thousand of them have settled for nine furlough days without pay. They are already paid less than it takes to live in NYC and buy a home there.

My guess would be that the state had them convinced jobs would be eliminated otherwise.

Maybe this was one of the groups that was cut so that the State could placate the powerful teacher's unions who wouldn't budge an inch and would have created a public policy nightmare in the event of a teacher's strike. The teacher's were threatened with layoffs but stood firm and the state blinked.

Great win for the selfish teacher's union, but the money has to come from somewhere.

[Guest]

Two public unions in New York State have settled for 0 percent raises for the next three years and have also settled for higher health care premiums. Seventy six thousand of them have settled for nine furlough days without pay. They are already paid less than it takes to live in NYC and buy a home there.

My guess would be that the state had them convinced jobs would be eliminated otherwise.

Maybe this was one of the groups that was cut so that the State could placate the powerful teacher's unions who wouldn't budge an inch and would have created a public policy nightmare in the event of a teacher's strike. The teacher's were threatened with layoffs but stood firm and the state blinked.

Great win for the selfish teacher's union, but the money has to come from somewhere.

[Guest]

Those with MEDICAID cards (not Medicare) usually are harder to please, and usually these folks have complaints that are not based on reality, and when they do have a complaint, it is rare that a resolution can be found to satisfy them, even when that resolution is above and beyond what has been offered to the patients with private insurance. Not all Medicaid folks are difficult to please...no biggy, just throwing it out there.

I would imagine that you've experienced that interesting phenomenon that cops talk about. Those who scream "I know my rights!" the loudest are often the people really, REALLY *don't*.

[Guest]

I would imagine that you've experienced that interesting phenomenon that cops talk about. Those who scream "I know my rights!" the loudest are often the people really, REALLY *don't*.

You seem to be on to something there:wave:

[Guest]

You seem to be on to something there:wave:

It comes from personal experience. Going through a divorce a couple of years ago, my now-ex-wife insisted that things existed that didn't - all the while screaming that she knew the law. To make a long story short, she toned that down a little when I said to her "I get my advice from my lawyer, a tax attorney, and the Hudson NH police department - not Judge Judy!"

...that and the fact that people seem to like to scream "I have 1st Ammendment Rights" on privately owned web forums.. I wonder if they've ever actually READ the Constitution.....