Sweden's (wonderful?) national health care.

[Guest]

A Swedish man who's legs were amputated due to complications from diabetes was denied a powered wheelchair because the government health service was "uncertain if the impairment was permanent".

The manufacturer of the wheelchairs provided the man with one on loan after a media expose. Private business to the rescue after government health care missteps?

I'm so looking forward to government bureaucrats in charge of our health care.

http://www.thelocal.se/37678/20111201/#

[Guest]

If you read the article closely, it stated the man was to be given an electric wheelchair but he did not want it. He wanted something like the "Rascal" power scooter. Our Medicare does not furnish those free either. If doctor approved, our Medicare will pay about 80% and your gap insurance may pick up the rest - or you pay the rest.

I cannot believe you look for articles as obscure as this one just to poke fun at our government. Usually, you are one that says government giveaways to the needy should be taken away.

[Guest]

I only hope that Obamacare gets struck down by the Supreme Court before we get to really appreciate what it is all about...

[Guest]

If you read the article closely, it stated the man was to be given an electric wheelchair but he did not want it. He wanted something like the "Rascal" power scooter. Our Medicare does not furnish those free either. If doctor approved, our Medicare will pay about 80% and your gap insurance may pick up the rest - or you pay the rest.

I cannot believe you look for articles as obscure as this one just to poke fun at our government. Usually, you are one that says government giveaways to the needy should be taken away.

If you read the story you would have noticed that the one the health service wanted to give him required an operator. He wouldn't be self sufficient. Read it again.

Like I said about you, and I say this as your friend; you are a knee-jerk liberal. You fight the leftist cause come hell or high water. You really want to defend this?

[Guest]

I only hope that Obamacare gets struck down by the Supreme Court before we get to really appreciate what it is all about...

Don't hold your breath......on second thought. :doh:

[Guest]

In respects to Obamacare he was smart to send it to the supreme court. They will find it to be ok the bad part is it will not be able to repeal it. Maybe in 20 years. I had some people from Canada stay at the hotel and the lady worked for the government and they said you better hope that the bill would not pass. This was in2010. They told me it will take them one to two years to get a medical problem taken care. Her husband had a heart condition and he said if he had waited for the process in Canada he would have died. They came to the states and paid for the surgery and was fine. This is the problem with Obamacare or any government health care program, they dont want older people to live. I truly hope the American people wake up think of your grandkids and the life they face. And it is not just Obamacare its every thing that is going on right now. We have 80000 people that live here right now and no is grouping a fight against the injustise that is being done to the American people. I'm not against the dems or rep. . What I am against is the leadership we have in Washington now and that is just about everyone. Take a long hard honest look at or government and look at the future before its to late for your grandkids. We dont matter anymore we're getting old not a lot of time left help the young ones out because they cant vote yet. Of course if the worst happens,and it probably will the kids wont know ant different anyway, we will be gone and what do we care. That is the attitude I am seeing now days. Sorry if I offend any one.

[Guest]

In Sweden they have a .2 DUI rate. Hence according to a WSJ sometime ago when Swedes go drinking many just walk because .2 is about one drink. The Swedes are always thinking about their national health care nd with this law their population drinks less and walks more. By the way its .5 in Denmark so they drive more

[Guest]

In respects to Obamacare he was smart to send it to the supreme court. They will find it to be ok the bad part is it will not be able to repeal it. Maybe in 20 years. I had some people from Canada stay at the hotel and the lady worked for the government and they said you better hope that the bill would not pass. This was in2010. They told me it will take them one to two years to get a medical problem taken care. Her husband had a heart condition and he said if he had waited for the process in Canada he would have died. They came to the states and paid for the surgery and was fine. This is the problem with Obamacare or any government health care program,........We dont matter anymore we're getting old not a lot of time left help the young ones out because they cant vote yet. Of course if the worst happens,and it probably will the kids wont know ant different anyway, we will be gone and what do we care. That is the attitude I am seeing now days. Sorry if I offend any one.

Getting a shiny new "free" insurance card from the federal government does not mean there is a doctor who can take on new patients and actually see you. None of the politicians is talking about the shortage of primary-care physicians across the country.

Increasing the number of medical school graduates does nothing to help the problem when there are not enough residency-training slots in which they must get trained in teaching hospitals. Residency training is funded by Medicare, and Medicare is being cut....with smaller cuts already being made, the new healthcare law to cut $248 billion from Medicare over 10 years. The article linked explains the problem with too little funding for residency training slots for the increasing number of medical school graduates.

Massachusetts learned quickly the results of having too few primary care doctors (more E.R. visits--the most costly place to treat routine maladies--because patients could not get an appointment with a primary dr., and higher costs and insurance premiums).....while MA has the highest number of physicians per patient than any other state! Having an insurance card does not mean a doctor can take you, and the ones we know and have had are already so overworked that they're looking at retiring--they're TIRED, and are fed up with being told what they can do by a bureaucrat reading from a medicare or insurance company computer screen.

This is not to say that major changes are not needed, nor to keep the status quo. The system does need financing overhaul. But the problem coming is the probable wreckage of the good care most Americans DO have, because of the financing problems politicians are only worsening.

"Medicare covers a portion of the cost of training a resident by paying teaching hospitals based on how many Medicare patients use the hospitals. The hospital then has to come up with the balance of the cost, which differs depending on the region.

The amount of money Medicare pays to hospitals has been frozen for nearly 15 years and more residency slots have not been created in many states....."
See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2011/09/23/not-enough-physician-residency-slots.html?page=all

"...Obama’s proposal to cut $248 billion from Medicare over 10 years includes $1 billion in trims to teaching hospitals, which could lead to fewer residency slots for doctor training programs....

Hospitals spend about $13 billion annually to train residents, Grover said. That breaks down to about $145,000 per resident, including the average first-year salary of $46,000, he said.

‘Tremendous Costs’

“Teaching hospitals carry tremendous additional costs to provide training,” said Sam Hawgood, medical school dean at the University of California, San Francisco. “It’s not simply hiring a resident and putting them to work. A huge amount of infrastructure is required.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-05/doctor-shortage-looms-as-teaching-hospitals-fight-for-funding.html

[Guest]

In Sweden they have a .2 DUI rate. Hence according to a WSJ sometime ago when Swedes go drinking many just walk because .2 is about one drink. The Swedes are always thinking about their national health care nd with this law their population drinks less and walks more. By the way its .5 in Denmark so they drive more

They're probably also thinking about gasoline costing around $8.50 per gallon.

[Guest]

A Swedish man who's legs were amputated due to complications from diabetes was denied a powered wheelchair because the government health service was "uncertain if the impairment was permanent".

The manufacturer of the wheelchairs provided the man with one on loan after a media expose. Private business to the rescue after government health care missteps?

I'm so looking forward to government bureaucrats in charge of our health care.

http://www.thelocal.se/37678/20111201/#

And the answer is our current system where an insurance adjuster lets you rot?

Or the example of my grandmother who was put into surgery AGAINST HER WILL and forced to endure FIVE YEARS of strokes and other debilitating conditions?

I'll give you this - your example is a good example of what to defend against if we ever end up changing the system we have.

[Guest]

And the answer is our current system where an insurance adjuster lets you rot?

Or the example of my grandmother who was put into surgery AGAINST HER WILL and forced to endure FIVE YEARS of strokes and other debilitating conditions?

I'll give you this - your example is a good example of what to defend against if we ever end up changing the system we have.

If not your grandmother herself, a family member/guardian had to sign consent forms prior to any procedure being done on Grama...What's your point?

[Guest]

Ummm.. No, we didn't.

Katz, please understand that the anger you're going to hear is not directed at you but at the system that did what I'm about to describe.

I was in the room with my grandmother while she was having a heart attack that literally lasted hours. I wasn't the only one there. My adoptive mother and a few other family members were there. My grandmother signed DNR papers IN FRONT OF ALL OF US - and we all agreed with her decision. She was in unbelievable amounts of pain.

We were told by her doctor that she was in no condition for a bypass operation. They simply couldn't put her under anesthesia because her circulation was so bad and they couldn't "harvest" any donor blood vessels from her legs.

We said our goodbyes. It was painful but we felt lucky that we were able to do what so many people never get to do - say those last words.

What happened next is something I *wish* I was making up.

We all left the hospital. We basically went home and waited for 'the call'. For a couple of days we heard nothing. Calls to the hospital resulted in "she's resting and under sedation for the pain".

Then we discovered she was on her way to surgery. They took an unconscious woman with NO family agreement and put her into surgery that would cripple her for the rest of her life (long story but she'd never get out of the hospital until winter which meant she couldn't walk, was too cold to get outside and was bedridden for the next several years as stroke after stroke continued to assault her).

The god-cursed pathetic excuse of a doctor made a claim that he was seeking additional DRG days so that she could stay in the hospital. What this scum-sucking doctor did NOT know what that my adoptive mother knew something about Medicare. She went off on him like a nuke and laid out several other diagnosis codes that could have given her the DRG days she needed. So why the surgery? Because that's what made him the most money. You know what they say - ALWAYS follow the money when you're trying to figure out why something is done.

My point is that you can find individual examples of ANYTHING going wrong with ANY system. Indeed it's a LOT easier to find someone in this country screwed over by 'the system' of private insurance we have. Don't want to look hard for that? Just google "medical bankruptcy" and read a few stories. Try "medical tourism" to see how 10 times as many people go from the US to other countries for medical treatment than do the other way around.

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF *ANY* PROPOSAL that has YET to come down the pike - even Obama's original Blue Sky Public Option plan has shown ANY way of fighting the single-biggest problem with our "system" - the fact that we pay more than TWICE as much, per capita, than ANY OTHER COUNTRY for our health care 'system'.

[Guest]

DPlong,

That is a terrible story about your grandmother. I would suspect that your family would have a cause of action lawsuit against that doctor and hospital.

I have a story, too, but definitely not as terrible as yours. My sister-in-law died from colon cancer at age 52 a few years ago. Her father was 83 at the time and confined to bed and wheelchair in a nursing home. His doctor insisted the old timer be given a colonoscopy since the daughter had died of colon cancer. In my viewpoint, this was only to add money to the Medicaid bill the doctor was submitting every month.

[Guest]

djplong~ Who signed the surgery consent? Apparently not a comatose lady? You might want to find that out for your own peace of mind. If you happen to find that there is no signature on file, Grama should find a lawyer who is also driven by the almighty dollar. She may not have her health restored, but a large settlement can make life a whole lot more comfortable...:cool:

[Guest]

Katz,

It happened in the late 1980s. NOBODY signed the papers. The doctor went ON HIS OWN with something akin to approving it HIMSELF certifying that it was best for the patient. ...or that's what we were told anyway. It was near impossible to find anyone who would talk to us on the record. In my heart of hearts I believe the hospital was, at least to a degree, "in on it" - I was working in the health care industry at the time and I know the premium and importance that hospitals put on inpatient stays back then. MAJOR profit center.

As we had no smoking gun, and nobody at the hospital or doctor's office would incriminate the so called 'doctor' who's parent's, IMO, were never married (if you get my drift), no lawyer would take the case. My grandmother was in no condition for a fight and we decided to let it lie since changing doctors and hospitals could have been even more traumatic. Then the strokes started and it all went to hell...

When I say she was pretty much tortured for five years, by that I mean she was in agony with a mind falling apart until she died five years after the Dr. Greedy cashed his checks.

[Guest]

djplong - What your grandmother experienced was a tragedy just as what happened to Buggyone's sister-in-law's father was clearly abuse. You continue to rail against private insurance companies, but both of the procedures were authorized by Medicare not private insurers. We need to ask if private insurers would have authorized these expenditures or vetoed them until proof of need was established? Medicare does not care. After all, the government is picking up the bill

You ask why medical care is more expensive in the United States than other countries. Let me use Canada as an example. The United States has 25.9 MRI machines per 1,000,000 people. Canada has 6.7. The figures for CT machines is 34.3 vs 2.7. Canada spends less on these tests simply because they cannot deliver the level of service provided in the US. The easiest way to reduce medical costs is to not provide them. I do not disagree that we need to reduce medical costs as a percentage of GDP and must attack the problem. We need to look at all the causes of medical cost inflation. It is worth noting that the explosion in US medical costs started in the 60's when Medicare came into existence.

[Guest]

djplong - What your grandmother experienced was a tragedy .... You continue to rail against private insurance companies, but both of the procedures were authorized by Medicare, not private insurers. We need to ask if private insurers would have authorized these expenditures or vetoed them until proof of need was established? Medicare does not care. After all, the government is picking up the bill

You ask why medical care is more expensive in the United States than other countries. Let me use Canada as an example. The United States has 25.9 MRI machines per 1,000,000 people. Canada has 6.7. The figures for CT machines is 34.3 vs 2.7. Canada spends less on these tests simply because they cannot deliver the level of service provided in the US. The easiest way to reduce medical costs is to not provide them. I do not disagree that we need to reduce medical costs as a percentage of GDP and must attack the problem. We need to look at all the causes of medical cost inflation. It is worth noting that the explosion in US medical costs started in the 60's when Medicare came into existence.

The statements I highlighted above in the quote are so telling in all of this mess.

I would add to the last sentence: "and when the patient stopped getting the check for the insurance claim, and it started going directly to the provider/doctor. When patients do not pay the dr. themselves, they have no incentive to look at the costs, nor to question overbillings, nor to look elsewhere for a better price from another provider."

As for djplong's grandmother's horrendous "care", medical care itself depends so much on the individual physician. There are quacks in every area of the country and there are quacks in every profession. Healthcare overall in the U.S. should not be characterized by a quack like that guy. There are also crappy hospitals here and there, but overall, most are not like that one.

I hate to see the excellent doctors and hospitals we've had be characterized and lumped in with charlatans like that.

As for the apparent malpractice done to Grandma, I would much prefer to have the ability to sue for malpractice than to have a single-payer government healthcare system for all, in which there is no ability to sue for malpractice. Does anyone really think the government would provide malpractice insurance for its doctors and other providers? I don't think so.

[Guest]

BBQMAN~ I have presented this data numerous times since I have been on this forum. Good luck being heard!


djplong~ Late 1980's, late 1970's...whatever. I don't believe there was no signature even back that far. Someone had to give consent. I've been in the business since 1972 and some rules have been around for years. You just can't do medical procedures without consent.
DNR's didn't even get past the Supreme Court until the early 90's though, so you might want to check your timeline of events.
AS far as DRG's go, your experience in the healthcare industry should tell you that once those were in place (1983ish), if anything, the goals became get the patient out as fast as possible. DRG's dictate that there will only be one payment for the entire stay. No longer did doc's get whatever else they thought they could just to milk the patient, insurance co, medicare while they had a captive audience.

[Guest]

The statements I highlighted above in the quote are so telling in all of this mess.

I would add to the last sentence: "and when the patient stopped getting the check for the insurance claim, and it started going directly to the provider/doctor. When patients do not pay the dr. themselves, they have no incentive to look at the costs, nor to question overbillings, nor to look elsewhere for a better price from another provider."

As for djplong's grandmother's horrendous "care", medical care itself depends so much on the individual physician. There are quacks in every area of the country and there are quacks in every profession. Healthcare overall in the U.S. should not be characterized by a quack like that guy. There are also crappy hospitals here and there, but overall, most are not like that one.

I hate to see the excellent doctors and hospitals we've had be characterized and lumped in with charlatans like that.

As for the apparent malpractice done to Grandma, I would much prefer to have the ability to sue for malpractice than to have a single-payer government healthcare system for all, in which there is no ability to sue for malpractice. Does anyone really think the government would provide malpractice insurance for its doctors and other providers? I don't think so.

Excellent points!
Medicare has come on the scene and controlled the price/reimbursements. Historically Medicare reimbursement has continued to drop, drop, drop, while technology and increase in life saving technology has continued to grow, grow, grow! IE...you can't buy a BMW for the price of a YUGO!

[Guest]

BBQMan: I'd agree with your points on our care being 'better' because we have triple the number of MRI/CAT/etc machines per capita if it actually produced results. I used to be in thatcamp.

Now, every study I see shows that the Medical Emperor has no clothes. We keep throwing more and more money at health care without caring where it goes. I worked for Beth Israel Hospital back during the events I described. We had whole floors of the hospital empty. Even though we didn't staff them, we still had to maintain them.

And with your example of CAT scan machines, all I can say is that, in the 1990s, when I had to go to the hospital in Montreal in the middle of the night, they wanted to send me for a CAT scan. How long would I have had to wait? Only until the tech got in at 9am. I had to refuse because my kids were alone in a hotel room and I *HAD* to get back once the pain was dealt with.

Katz: Yes, I know, there SHOULD have been a paper trail. We never saw the consent form, nobody would tell us who signed it and, to tell you the truth, we were scared of what the ramifications or consequences would be if we fought the case while my grandmother was still alive.

[Guest]

BBQMan: I'd agree with your points on our care being 'better' because we have triple the number of MRI/CAT/etc machines per capita if it actually produced results. I used to be in thatcamp.

Now, every study I see shows that the Medical Emperor has no clothes. We keep throwing more and more money at health care without caring where it goes. I worked for Beth Israel Hospital back during the events I described. We had whole floors of the hospital empty. Even though we didn't staff them, we still had to maintain them.

And with your example of CAT scan machines, all I can say is that, in the 1990s, when I had to go to the hospital in Montreal in the middle of the night, they wanted to send me for a CAT scan. How long would I have had to wait? Only until the tech got in at 9am. I had to refuse because my kids were alone in a hotel room and I *HAD* to get back once the pain was dealt with.

Katz: Yes, I know, there SHOULD have been a paper trail. We never saw the consent form, nobody would tell us who signed it and, to tell you the truth, we were scared of what the ramifications or consequences would be if we fought the case while my grandmother was still alive.

With all due respect...you don't know what you are talking about! Our healthcare system and advanced technology availability is producing PHENOMENAL RESULTS!

I am not sure who you mean by WE are throwing more and more money...It certainly isn't Medicare. And to say without caring where it goes...Our healthcare system is "hamstringed" by ridiculous regulations and required paperwork.

I repeat...you don't know what you are talking about. And frankly, I am tremendously offended by your accusations. I belong to a network of healthcare workers in NW Ohio, friends, colleagues, professional acquaintances. All of whom are deeply dedicated and caring professionals who have gone above and beyond on a daily basis for the lives of their patients and the patients families. You need not judge my profession until you have walked a mile in our scrubs and sterile environments, held pressure on an artery for an hour, performed an emergency procedure in the middle of the night on Christmas, moved mountains to beat the clock to prevent permanent damage to a stroke patient, lived a life with the motto to "first do no harm"! Felt your heart break when you have done all known to man and within your power, only to lose an innocent victim of a needless and horrific auto accident. Give me a break. Don't pervert the selfless work of healthcare workers and the incredible miracles that they perform on a daily basis.

[Guest]

Katz: Allow me to clarify my remarks.

When I said 'producing results' I did not intend to disparage the work that IS being done by the legions of dedicated health care workers. For the most part, I've had very good experiences.

I should have explained that I find it frustrating that we pay so much more and do NOT have the kinds of results we SHOULD have when compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

As an example, we should NOT be tied for 55th, with *Cuba* in life expectancy when we're paying more than twice as much per capita as ANY other nation (source: CIA World Fact Book)

[Guest]

Life expectancy? How is that dependent on the cost of our healthcare system?
Do a little research on the American Diet and its affect on the human body and disease processes. While you are at it, look at who does research and sets the medical parameters for certain medications (hint-BIG PHARMA). That is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd be happy to give you a few links, but they may or may not pass your filter for biases. OK, I can't resist...check out the work of Linus Pauling in regards to preventing heart disease.

[Guest]

With all due respect...you don't know what you are talking about! Our healthcare system and advanced technology availability is producing PHENOMENAL RESULTS!

I am not sure who you mean by WE are throwing more and more money...It certainly isn't Medicare. And to say without caring where it goes...Our healthcare system is "hamstringed" by ridiculous regulations and required paperwork.

I repeat...you don't know what you are talking about. And frankly, I am tremendously offended by your accusations. I belong to a network of healthcare workers in NW Ohio, friends, colleagues, professional acquaintances. All of whom are deeply dedicated and caring professionals who have gone above and beyond on a daily basis for the lives of their patients and the patients families. You need not judge my profession until you have walked a mile in our scrubs and sterile environments, held pressure on an artery for an hour, performed an emergency procedure in the middle of the night on Christmas, moved mountains to beat the clock to prevent permanent damage to a stroke patient, lived a life with the motto to "first do no harm"! Felt your heart break when you have done all known to man and within your power, only to lose an innocent victim of a needless and horrific auto accident. Give me a break. Don't pervert the selfless work of healthcare workers and the incredible miracles that they perform on a daily basis.

katz: I can attest to the dedication of you caring angels who too often are not thanked for the selfishless service. You are truly angels of mercy

[Guest]

Life expectancy? How is that dependent on the cost of our healthcare system?
Do a little research on the American Diet and its affect on the human body and disease processes. While you are at it, look at who does research and sets the medical parameters for certain medications (hint-BIG PHARMA). That is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd be happy to give you a few links, but they may or may not pass your filter for biases. OK, I can't resist...check out the work of Linus Pauling in regards to preventing heart disease.

Oh I certainly agree with some of the points you make. I suspect that we agree more than you might think (a sentiment I also shared with RichieLion).

But I'll explain the example I gave.

When you pay more for something, you expect more (and better). If you pay for a Lexus, you don't expect a Chevy Metro.

What is the purpose of health care? Among other things, it's to help us live longer, healthier, happier lives.

It doesn't really bother me that we pay more than other countries. I can accept that. What DOES bother me is that we pay MORE THAN TWICE of what the #2 country pays - and we don't get better care. Ten times as many people go to foreign countries for treatment than come here. That, in and of itself, should tell you something is wrong.

Every single metric I can find has us trailing the pack. Sometimes there ARE some mitigating factors (especially when it comes to birth statistics - we try harder to save preemies and the mortality rate there is high - so our infant mortality rates tend to skew higher - but other countries might not count that as a 'live birth'). But I'm tired, for example, of seeing every other country get bargains on medications that we don't get. If Pfizer can sell something to Canada or Germany at a profit for less than half what they charge us, there's something wrong.

The government used to have a rule in procurement that any vendor was required BY LAW to match any 'best price' when selling to the government. IN other words, you couldn't sell your product or service to the government at a higher price than you sold it to others. You didn't have to match some OTHER vendor's price, just your own.

Apparently that doesn't apply to things like Medicare.