"Let's legalize drugs. Amsterdam is such a sane city now".

[graciegirl]

The words above were spoken last night at a Gala that Whitney Houston would have attended and they were spoken by an old friend of hers.

I don't understand drugs and I don't understand how someone could make that statement.

I don't see how the legalization of drugs would have kept her alive. It seems to be that when you are addicted you live for the next high and I know I am not alone in thinking that her death was caused by an overdose of drugs.

I hope that her death serves to warn young people how awful drug addiction is.

Am I not seeing what this man was trying to say????

I was shocked just now when I read it.

[memason]

While "soft" drugs are tolerated in Amsterdam, there are no drugs that are legal there that aren't legal in the US.

[nitehawk]

Maybe someday we will have a happy hour for drugs

[ilovetv]

The words above were spoken last night at a Gala that Whitney Houston would have attended and they were spoken by an old friend of hers.

I don't understand drugs and I don't understand how someone could make that statement.

I don't see how the legalization of drugs would have kept her alive. It seems to be that when you are addicted you live for the next high and I know I am not alone in thinking that her death was caused by an overdose of drugs.

I hope that her death serves to warn young people how awful drug addiction is.

Am I not seeing what this man was trying to say????

I was shocked just now when I read it.

It makes me think he's probably an addict, too. I'm still so saddened and shocked about the flippant attitude Whitney showed in her lengthy interview with Diane Sawyer 10 years ago. She openly said in many ways what drugs she was abusing, and that it was no big deal.

Sober people knew better. This is a crying shame. But as long as she kept going back to the husband who fed it (and who beat her), others couldn't stop her.

[De Lis]

I simply can't believe what an utterly STUPID statement Bennett just made! Give him the hook, he needs to get off the stage and stop influencing young people.

[rubicon]

The old saw states the two times people say nice things about you is when you retire and when you die.

I have to admit cognitive dissonnance when hearing people hero worship a person who led their lives as did whitney Houston.

Yes she was a wonderful entertainer but to overlook th obvious is to send the wrong signals to our young.

Amsterdam based on what I have read is sorry they legalized and kind of drugs and prostitution because it has made a mess of their city and their leaders are not attempting to back track.

No one will ever convince me legalizing drugs will solve our problem. Look at the legal prescription drug issue. It has overtaken the street drug problem. to vote for legalization is to either want the right to be an addict or to admit that the war on drugs is not winnable. I believe it is winnable but authorities need to get at the heart of the matter and stop protecting those who either ignore the problem or enable it for political/monetary reasons

[quirky3]

Alcohol is legal and look at the addicts and messed up lives that causes. I would venture to guess that very few people have not abused something in their lives. It doesn't make sense to me to single out one type of addiction and make self righteous judgements about people who are addicts. Vague biblical memories of "remove that beam in your eye". I do agree with responses of compassion and sadness, and the sharing of what lessons we can all learn from this.

[JeffAVEWS]

I don't think they will get the message, Janus Joplin, Mama Cass Elliot, John Belushi, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Hendrix.........


:ohdear:

[PennBF]

It is sad to see another life allegedly taken by another drug. I don't understand the reference to "alcohol" as it is just another drug. Have been to Amsterdam a few times and you can see the effect of their "light drug laws".
These people who think pot is OK should understand that it is a gateway drug and many, many users end up going to more strong drugs as the high gets higher when they do. It is sad to see such a talented person as Whiteny Houston allegedly die from drugs or have a history of drug usage. Because of her money she most likely had a number of enabler's who helped her reach this point. Some do it because they think they are helping her, other because they want to continue to reap some money from her and some just don't care and abuse her. In the end she is responsible for her own life.
But please don't think using "pot" is just an innocent pastime. It is the potential beginning of a life of drugs and the sorrowfull effects of that life style. Of course alcohol is just another possible "gateway drug". :ohdear:

[manaboutown]

Having spent a little time in Amsterdam I want to let potential visitors know that if a storefront has a sign reading "coffee shop" it means that it is a place to toke up on marijuana in one form or another. It is not what most folks understand a coffee shop to be. If one really wants coffee one needs to go to a real restaurant or bakery. Stroll through the red light district while you are there. I wonder what their HIV rate is now....I also noticed a lot of people were freaky looking and off-putting to me, being unwashed, ill clothed, emaciated, covered with tattoos and had lots of piercings and body jewelry. I believe historically because the Dutch are so liberal and accepting drug users from all over descended on Amsterdam starting back in the 60's and 70's. People could not take their children into parks for all the used needles lying around back then. Things are cleaned up somewhat but it is not a place in which I would find it comfortable to live.

[duffysmom]

I've been to Amsterdam and have seen NY City's Bowery. The Bowery looked like a day spa compared to Amsterdam. Frightening!! For many addicts there comes a point when they can no longer make a rational decision to stop using, their brain is too toxic. God rest her soul.

[memason]

Not sure where you folks went in Amsterdam, but you certainly saw a different city than I saw. Like any big city, there are areas, but to characterize the whole city of Amsterdam as some sort of cesspool is wrong. ..and, there aren't a bunch of crazed drug addicts running all over the place...

[Uptown Girl]

The words above were spoken last night at a Gala that Whitney Houston would have attended and they were spoken by an old friend of hers.
...... Am I not seeing what this man was trying to say????

I was shocked just now when I read it.

I have long thought he's not the sharpest Crayola on the tree.

[PennBF]

I didn't read where someone said all of Amsterdam is a cess pool. There are some very nice sections. But to imply it is almost "drug free" is a very significant overstatement. You see a lot of lost souls in the main area of town.
I remember being there in the early 70's during the drug revolution. I had a movie camera and tried to take a picture of all of the druggies on Dam Square around the statute. There were hundreds. They had postitioned one druggie on each corner of the statute and they had mirrors to flash into your camera to prevent pictures/movies, etc. The city is still a haven for this as it was open in the 60's and 70's and many have stayed there. Of course a great many were avoiding the draft and could have protection from it. The
parks were dens of drug users, open living, etc.
The city has never lived down this reputation and thats why many still flock to Amsterdam. We were there a year ago and did not feel threatened. Liked the city but did notice a number of drug users both young and oldies.:ohdear:

[quirky3]

In the past, we had long threads about alcohol in the squares at TV, and people have boasted that The Villages is "an alcohol friendly place", and if you don't like that, don't move there. The same can be said for Amsterdam. In my eyes, direct parallels exist between making (legal) alcohol easily available, and making legal soft drugs easily available. Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if we evolved beyond the use of addictive substances, period, and used natural methods for stress reduction and relaxation.

[ilovetv]

Having lived with addicts, I'd say that legalizing all drugs would be the ultimate act of being an "enabler".

Do people like Tony Bennett and others with this "solution" really think God put us on this earth to enable and facilitate others in destroying themselves and their offspring??

But then, sadly, to the addicts I know, the drug/alcohol is their god, to whom they are a slave.

[bkcunningham1]

Gracie, consider the source. Remember Tony Bennett's remarks after the September 11 terrorist attacks on Americans? He may have lost a few too many brain cells in his life.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/tony-bennett-on-911-attacks-they-flew-the-plane-in-but-we-caused-it/

[rubicon]

Alcohol is legal and look at the addicts and messed up lives that causes. I would venture to guess that very few people have not abused something in their lives. It doesn't make sense to me to single out one type of addiction and make self righteous judgements about people who are addicts. Vague biblical memories of "remove that beam in your eye". I do agree with responses of compassion and sadness, and the sharing of what lessons we can all learn from this.

quirky 3: Other than loving my wife and kids all things in moderation as the Greeks advisd has been my motto, My very best friend one I considered committed suicide because of addiction at a young age. I visit his grave often when I am home.

No one will ever convince me that legalizing drugs is the right course. In fact the thought is ludicrous when you think of what you are telling people. You have the right to get high, ignore your responsibility and impair your family society with your nasty habit, etc.

[quirky3]

quirky 3: Other than loving my wife and kids all things in moderation as the Greeks advisd has been my motto, My very best friend one I considered committed suicide because of addiction at a young age. I visit his grave often when I am home.

No one will ever convince me that legalizing drugs is the right course. In fact the thought is ludicrous when you think of what you are telling people. You have the right to get high, ignore your responsibility and impair your family society with your nasty habit, etc.

Yes, I totally agree with you. If you read again, you will see that I do not advocate legalizing all drugs. I was making the point that vigorously advocating the consumption of legal alcohol while condemning the legal use of soft drugs makes no sense. If one is that bad, so is the other. I was hoping people would see that alcohol is every bit as harmful as soft drugs, and it would make sense to reconsider their view toward alcohol. It seems sad and bizarre to me that some people are proud of labeling TV as "an alcohol friendly place". That's like saying TV is "an addictive substance friendly place." And my final point was to advocate evolution to the point of not using addictive substances at all. I'm very sorry for your addiction-related losses, and I have had several of my own, so I understand.

[manaboutown]

Yes, I totally agree with you. If you read again, you will see that I do not advocate legalizing all drugs. I was making the point that vigorously advocating the consumption of legal alcohol while condemning the legal use of soft drugs makes no sense. If one is that bad, so is the other. I was hoping people would see that alcohol is every bit as harmful as soft drugs, and it would make sense to reconsider their view toward alcohol. It seems sad and bizarre to me that some people are proud of labeling TV as "an alcohol friendly place". That's like saying TV is "an addictive substance friendly place." And my final point was to advocate evolution to the point of not using addictive substances at all. I'm very sorry for your addiction-related losses, and I have had several of my own, so I understand.

As I understand it studies show that alcohol in moderation such as a glass or two of red wine a day can lead to a longer and healthier life if one is not an alcoholic. Most people who drink do not become dependent upon or addicted to alcohol, become alcoholic or abuse it regularly. Perhaps a genetic component is a factor since some populations seem to suffer alcoholism in great numbers while others do not. I do not know. Anyway, I do not consider alcohol to be an "addictive substance" for everyone or even most people. Other studies show caffeine in moderation such as two or three cups of coffee in the morning are a good thing health wise. Is caffeine addictive? Probably to some extent. Many people suffer headaches or other withdrawal symptoms for a short period of time when they quit consuming caffeine containing drinks. I know I do. On the other hand I have never heard of a study showing soft drugs such as marijuana in moderation lead to longer and happier life or offer any health benefits whatsoever. I have seen studies showing they are addictive and frequently lead to the use of harder drugs. Thus, I do not equate or consider equivalent alcohol and soft drugs.

By the way, even food can be addictive to some people yet we cannot live without nourishment!

[NotGolfer]

If anyone has had a friend or family member whose been an addict, you would NOT want the legalization of drugs in any form! "Soft drugs"...that seems like an oxymoron to me! We've had the effects of both loved ones and friends who've had addictions and it's not pleasant!! One of our good friends put a hole in his head after years in and out of detox and it was horrific for his family!!

What happened with Whitney was horrible...a total waste of a super-talent. She had a gift and in my opinion it was wasted over the years. Just think what she could have done with that, "IF" she hadn't had the addictions??!!! Back in the day, I so enjoyed her!!! Not so much recently I'm afraid.

[ilovetv]

Watch this short video of Oprah interviewing Whitney in 2009.

It pretty much sums up the total desperation of her mother, who came with the sheriffs to "get my daughter back"......to see the beauty and sparkle in her eyes again.....

Now her mother will have to wait to see her again in heaven.

Cissy Houston's Drug Intervention for Whitney Houston - Oprah.com (http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Cissy-Houstons-Drug-Intervention-for-Whitney-Houston)

[PennBF]

It is all too common to hear people compare coffee and alcohol. When was the last time you saw a "Rehab" for coffee drinkers. It is really a lack of understanding that leads to this kind of distorted logic. Did you know that alcohol is the only drug that effects every organ of the body. Not even cocaine or the other drugs do this. Do you know that if someone came in with an OD on Coke, Herion and Alcohol the one that would be watched the most closely is the one on alcohol as it can cause the body to shut down.
Have you ever seen someone using alcohol have a grand maul seizure. Have you any understanding of the chemical effect that alcohol has on the brain.
That the casual drinker that has a drink once in awhile is not the problem
It is the one who has the chemical reaction in the brain that causes the person to become an addict. How do you know you are not one? When/if you do realize it it is too late!!
As I have said previously..Buy a sponge in the store, let it completely dry out and be "crumbly" and then squeeze it and watch what happen as it crumbles into sand like particles. Welcome to the world of the liver on over usage of
alcohol. Not sure how much alcohol would cause your liver to react like this?
When you do it is too late.
If someone wants to drink so be it..But they should at least have a little education before they convince someone else to "pick up". Hey they can do
what they want with their body and have as much denial as they want but
at least don't try to convince anyone that coffee and alcohol are the same.
Coffee does not ruin your liver and effect every organ in your body. Have not even mentioned frying your brain and losing brain cells. Last I heard. Coffee
does not do this? Go ahead, pick up but at least do it with some smarts. :popcorn: Oops, I failed to mention that once the liver is impacted you cannot cure it !! Or if you stop drinking and then go back 10 years later your body reacts as though you never stopped..All systems are on "go".

[Barefoot]

In the past, we had long threads about alcohol in the squares at TV, and people have boasted that The Villages is "an alcohol friendly place", and if you don't like that, don't move there. The same can be said for Amsterdam. In my eyes, direct parallels exist between making (legal) alcohol easily available, and making legal soft drugs easily available. Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if we evolved beyond the use of addictive substances, period, and used natural methods for stress reduction and relaxation.

I tend to agree with Quirky that parallels exist between alcohol and soft drugs. Alcohol, prescription drugs and medical marijuana can all offer health benefits if used sparingly. All can be addictive, but are not necessarily so. I think Quirky's point was lost: that it would be wonderful if we all were able to relax using natural methods.

[jackz]

Having spent a little time in Amsterdam I want to let potential visitors know that if a storefront has a sign reading "coffee shop" it means that it is a place to toke up on marijuana in one form or another. It is not what most folks understand a coffee shop to be. If one really wants coffee one needs to go to a real restaurant or bakery. Stroll through the red light district while you are there. I wonder what their HIV rate is now....I also noticed a lot of people were freaky looking and off-putting to me, being unwashed, ill clothed, emaciated, covered with tattoos and had lots of piercings and body jewelry. I believe historically because the Dutch are so liberal and accepting drug users from all over descended on Amsterdam starting back in the 60's and 70's. People could not take their children into parks for all the used needles lying around back then. Things are cleaned up somewhat but it is not a place in which I would find it comfortable to live.

Good points.

Having lived and worked in The Netherlands for 6 years, 1994-2000, and remaining in touch with people still residing there I wanted to point out a few facts about the Dutch system of "tolerating" soft drugs.

When I first arrived there Dutch "Coffee Shops" were permitted to sell up to 30 grams of marijuana (approx 1 ounce) to anyone who came into their shops.

A number of years later the Dutch government reduced the 30 gram quantity to 5grams and the latest regulations being discussed is to not allow tourists to purchase ANY marijuana at the coffee shops and instead have it only available for Dutch citizens.

In addition, the government has reduced the numbers of coffee shops via licensing and zoning changes.

The Dutch recognized that one of their biggest problems was "drug tourism" which consisted of many young people and old as well driving into Holland from France, Germany and Belgium solely for the purpose of purchasing drugs. This became a black eye for the Dutch and they are trying to thwart it with their new regulations.

Bottom line, the Dutch have found that their "toleration policy" of soft drugs did not turn out to be the magic bullet....

[graciegirl]

As I understand it studies show that alcohol in moderation such as a glass or two of red wine a day can lead to a longer and healthier life if one is not an alcoholic. Most people who drink do not become dependent upon or addicted to alcohol, become alcoholic or abuse it regularly. Perhaps a genetic component is a factor since some populations seem to suffer alcoholism in great numbers while others do not. I do not know. Anyway, I do not consider alcohol to be an "addictive substance" for everyone or even most people. Other studies show caffeine in moderation such as two or three cups of coffee in the morning are a good thing health wise. Is caffeine addictive? Probably to some extent. Many people suffer headaches or other withdrawal symptoms for a short period of time when they quit consuming caffeine containing drinks. I know I do. On the other hand I have never heard of a study showing soft drugs such as marijuana in moderation lead to longer and happier life or offer any health benefits whatsoever. I have seen studies showing they are addictive and frequently lead to the use of harder drugs. Thus, I do not equate or consider equivalent alcohol and soft drugs.

By the way, even food can be addictive to some people yet we cannot live without nourishment!

You have summarized my feelings too. I don't drink anymore, not because I think it is wrong but because I was using it as a way to escape my awful fear when our daughter Helene had cancer some many years ago. I realized that wasn't a good thing and didn't take the reality away so I just stopped. Our other daughter had a horrific tri malleaor break to her lower leg with two surgeries and a lot of metal inserted but insisted on having nothing stronger than Advil for three months afterward because she has heard and seen first hand at the medical school how easily people can become addicted to pain killers.

Addiction sometimes is a choice, not always. AND I do think that addiction issues probably have a genetic component. But it is a horribly sad thing to hear that someone so sparkling and beautiful and talented has died from it. That goes from Judy Garland to Whitney Houston. Being in the public eye and being a successful entertainer is very hard in ways we ordinary folks will probably never understand.

[nitehawk]

Good points.

Having lived and worked in The Netherlands for 6 years, 1994-2000, and remaining in touch with people still residing there I wanted to point out a few facts about the Dutch system of "tolerating" soft drugs.

When I first arrived there Dutch "Coffee Shops" were permitted to sell up to 30 grams of marijuana (approx 1 ounce) to anyone who came into their shops.

A number of years later the Dutch government reduced the 30 gram quantity to 5grams and the latest regulations being discussed is to not allow tourists to purchase ANY marijuana at the coffee shops and instead have it only available for Dutch citizens.

In addition, the government has reduced the numbers of coffee shops via licensing and zoning changes.

The Dutch recognized that one of their biggest problems was "drug tourism" which consisted of many young people and old as well driving into Holland from France, Germany and Belgium solely for the purpose of purchasing drugs. This became a black eye for the Dutch and they are trying to thwart it with their new regulations.

Bottom line, the Dutch have found that their "toleration policy" of soft drugs did not turn out to be the magic bullet....


And maybe you think ours is better - turn on the local news ---- try leaving your unlocked bicycle in the middle of Orlando or NYC just wonder who has the higher crime rate Orlando or Amsterdam

[quirky3]

It is all too common to hear people compare coffee and alcohol. When was the last time you saw a "Rehab" for coffee drinkers. It is really a lack of understanding that leads to this kind of distorted logic. Did you know that alcohol is the only drug that effects every organ of the body. Not even cocaine or the other drugs do this. Do you know that if someone came in with an OD on Coke, Herion and Alcohol the one that would be watched the most closely is the one on alcohol as it can cause the body to shut down.
Have you ever seen someone using alcohol have a grand maul seizure. Have you any understanding of the chemical effect that alcohol has on the brain.
That the casual drinker that has a drink once in awhile is not the problem
It is the one who has the chemical reaction in the brain that causes the person to become an addict. How do you know you are not one? When/if you do realize it it is too late!!
As I have said previously..Buy a sponge in the store, let it completely dry out and be "crumbly" and then squeeze it and watch what happen as it crumbles into sand like particles. Welcome to the world of the liver on over usage of
alcohol. Not sure how much alcohol would cause your liver to react like this?
When you do it is too late.
If someone wants to drink so be it..But they should at least have a little education before they convince someone else to "pick up". Hey they can do
what they want with their body and have as much denial as they want but
at least don't try to convince anyone that coffee and alcohol are the same.
Coffee does not ruin your liver and effect every organ in your body. Have not even mentioned frying your brain and losing brain cells. Last I heard. Coffee
does not do this? Go ahead, pick up but at least do it with some smarts. :popcorn: Oops, I failed to mention that once the liver is impacted you cannot cure it !! Or if you stop drinking and then go back 10 years later your body reacts as though you never stopped..All systems are on "go".

Thank you PennFB - you have done an excellent job of driving home the point that alcohol is a serious, dangerous addictive substance. The emotional devastation of loving someone addicted to alcohol is hard to describe if you have not been there yourself. I do dream of a society someday that celebrates, relaxes, and socializes with all natural methods.

[jackz]

And maybe you think ours is better - turn on the local news ---- try leaving your unlocked bicycle in the middle of Orlando or NYC just wonder who has the higher crime rate Orlando or Amsterdam

I never said our anything was better.

What I did was provide some background on how the Dutch handle THEIR situation and nothing else.

[Barefoot]

Good points.

Having lived and worked in The Netherlands for 6 years, 1994-2000, and remaining in touch with people still residing there I wanted to point out a few facts about the Dutch system of "tolerating" soft drugs.

When I first arrived there Dutch "Coffee Shops" were permitted to sell up to 30 grams of marijuana (approx 1 ounce) to anyone who came into their shops.

A number of years later the Dutch government reduced the 30 gram quantity to 5grams and the latest regulations being discussed is to not allow tourists to purchase ANY marijuana at the coffee shops and instead have it only available for Dutch citizens.

In addition, the government has reduced the numbers of coffee shops via licensing and zoning changes.

The Dutch recognized that one of their biggest problems was "drug tourism" which consisted of many young people and old as well driving into Holland from France, Germany and Belgium solely for the purpose of purchasing drugs. This became a black eye for the Dutch and they are trying to thwart it with their new regulations.

Bottom line, the Dutch have found that their "toleration policy" of soft drugs did not turn out to be the magic bullet....

Interesting information about the Dutch Government's "toleration policy" for soft drugs. Thanks for posting from first-hand knowledge.

[2BNTV]

Generally speaking, I believe that Whitney claimed her use of drugs was no big deal. I don't think the real problem is their are drugs available but the need to use them.

I think the only way for someone to get off of drugs is to go into treatmet and understand the emotional, psycological need to be dependent on them.
What is the real reason that is causing one to use and the willingness and strength needed to go through this process to a successful completion.

We will never know what drives a person to do drugs to this extreme result.

Only the person doing something like this needs to find their answer before it's too late.

[ilovetv]

And maybe you think ours is better - turn on the local news ---- try leaving your unlocked bicycle in the middle of Orlando or NYC just wonder who has the higher crime rate Orlando or Amsterdam

You miss the point. He was talking about the "black eye" all the druggie tourists brought. Who wants to take the trip of a lifetime to Europe and see more Skid Row or Bowery than the worst ones here in the U.S.

It's also a matter of the Culture of Death surrounding the Dr. Kavorkian type culture.....legally assisted suicide for sometimes very flimsy reasons (like older people not wanting to be a "bother" anymore, or the disabled, etc.).

Who wants to live in a Culture of Death? (Well I guess some do, wanting third trimester abortions while a C-Section can be done just as fast, if not faster, to save a mother AND baby.)

[memason]

oh boy.....here we go.

:popcorn:

[CarolSells]

And maybe you think ours is better - turn on the local news ---- try leaving your unlocked bicycle in the middle of Orlando or NYC just wonder who has the higher crime rate Orlando or Amsterdam


IMHO, the legalization of drugs, of whatever variety, would only have an effect on our crime rate if it reduces the number of drug-related arrests and convictions. (I'm not expressing an opinion for either side on that here.) No where has it been mentioned that Amsterdam (I Googled their stance on drugs yesterday) is handing out free drugs. People still need money to buy them.

Also, IMHO, drugs will never be legalized here. The "War On Drugs" by our "guvment" will never be won.

1) Think Prostitution. How long has this been a crime? Is our "war" on it effective?

2) Drugs are Big Business all of the way up the chain from the guy peddling on the street, to the legal system, and to The Big Dogs who are actually making the real money that's being made.

[TF Hutch]

...

[duffysmom]

I was introduced to marajuana by the United States Army during the Viet Nam debacle. I would think many Viet Nam vets would enjoy a joint now and then. After a career filled with drug test, I am looking forward to a retirement with no drug test. I prefer Pot to alchohol, no hangover.

In regards to Pot, The Chief of Police where I live (not TV) has said what goes on in your own home is your business, not his departments. I agree.

Let the Flames begin!

That may be true where you live but if you live in a courtyard villa and I'm your neighbor I would not tolerate your dope fumes wafting over the wall. Secondhand cigarette smoke is dangerous enought but inhaling your pot won't fly here. No flame intended, just a desire for fresh air and a clear head. Peace brother.

[De Lis]

I have lived / worked also in Holland, just like JackZ, and agree with him 100%. While we are on the subject, just ask the Canadian RCMP how happy they are that pot was legalized; it made their job twice as difficult! (I have lived there, as well.)

Our DEA agents put their lives on the line every day in order to try to stem the onslaught of our consumer society. My hat goes off to them.

Lastly, NiteHawk, don't ever - ever - think that the legalizing of drugs will make our lives any SAFER.