Hot Water Recirculating Pump

[applesoffh]

Had a problem with hot water reaching the master bath. We have a newly-built Lilac in Charlotte. Water was merely tepid after running for minimum 4 minutes. Complained to Warranty Department. Builder checked it out, admitted that it took a long time (after he ran the water), said that waterheater needed a recirculating pump. Now, I find this hard to believe. I lived in an apartment in NYC, a two family house (second floor) where the boiler was in the basement, and a one family house with a boiler in the basement, and never had to wait 4 minutes for hot water. $485 later, at least I have hot water in the master bathroom. Project Manager claims "that's just the way it is". No remuneration offered. This must be a design flaw (like the stupid windows with no bottom "lip"). I love my house...generally, but am disappointed with some things and annoyed that both the builder and project manager consider these things "normal". BTW - I don't think the water is travelling all that far - from the garage to the master bath, but I'm beginning to think I'm nuts about these things.

[Ohiogirl]

but what is the temp set at on the water heater? We felt it made a difference in ours, although we have a gas water heater.

[Mikeod]

I believe hot water is running through the slab, not through insulated, interior walls. That will cool the water quickly, although 4 minutes seems a bit long to me. Out master bath is at the farthest point from the water heater possible, and, while it takes a while, I don't think it takes as much as that. I even notice that when I take a shower a couple of minutes after my wife gets out, I still have a wait for hot water, so the water cools off in the pipes fairly quickly.

[applesoffh]

The temperature is set per the manufacturer's recommendation of 125, which is plenty hot. I didn't believe it took 4 minutes either, until it was timed. We spoke with a plumber's rep (the same plumber who worked on the house) and she said that the biggest item sold to Villages residents is recirculating pumps. That really says something...

[angiefox10]

The temperature is set per the manufacturer's recommendation of 125, which is plenty hot. I didn't believe it took 4 minutes either, until it was timed. We spoke with a plumber's rep (the same plumber who worked on the house) and she said that the biggest item sold to Villages residents is recirculating pumps. That really says something...

This is true....

OK... this is what we were told. Because of the McDonalds lawsuit the manufacturer's recommendation is 125 degrees. This is lowered from what it used to be. Our hot water heater is electric with two elements. We were told that if we turn the thermometer up on notch it would take care of the problem.

The old water heaters used to have an adjustment on the outside and now are inside so you have to open it up to make the adjustment. We were also told not to over adjust as it would overwork the water heater and it wouldn't last as long!

[Happinow]

Sounds to me like this is a problem that needs to be fixed by the builder....

[JohnN]

*normal* when it doesn't work right is poor quality.
Seems to happen often enough these days and this is one more case.

You could try asking the POA property owners association.
If enough people had this problem, TV might offer up some help.
Best wishes.

[chuckinca]

Does the water pressure seem normal (about 65 PSI)? If the pressure is low the water will flow slower.

If you turn the shower on and also the hot water in the lav it should cut the time for hot water to arrive nearly in half.

.

[moose]

Join the crew at the villages. We turned our up to 135 degrees and still do not have hot water quickly. I will have to time it. I turn the shower on...get undressed and the water is still not hot.

What everyone said is true...a lower setting is set when installed, running through the foundation, and one more....they use water saving shower heads and this mean you are getting less water coming through. It gives you a good shower but the water level is less....so thus it take more time for that hot water to get to you.

Also you might think of a hot water timer...it does not get the water to you quicker but is run the tank less...you set it for the times you want hot water in the day...off all night...turns on 6-9. I have plenty of hot water all the time. Just readjust the times if company is here.

[mulligan]

The water lines are actually buried 8 to 12 inches below the slab. Take a look when you drive by a lot with the forms for the slab in place, and pipes sticking up above. This is my main complaint with the builder (not bad, considering). If the hot water lines were buried a little deeper, and imbedded in ,perhaps, a spray-in styrofoam product, the results would be quite a bit better. If the builder had any real environmental responsibility, or was interested in 100% satisfaction of customers complaints on this issue, something would have been changed long ago. As it is, you as a homeowner, are paying for the several gallons of water wasted while waiting for hot, paying for that water to go through the wastewater system, and/or paying to have a recirculating pump installed. None of which is the correct fix IMHO. Even the pump, which is the most convenient fix, uses extra energy to reheat the recirculated water.

[getdul981]

We also have the problem of hot water taking a long time to reach the MB. I usually turn the shower on while I shave and then the water is usually hot enough to take a bath. Increasing the temp. will not shorten the time it takes to reach the shower head, only make it hotter when it does get there. I did increase the temp. so the dishwasher performed better. We are considering replacing the water heater with a tankless water heater. There was a vendor at the craft show in Spanish Springs a couple of months ago. This would not help with the time problem, but would not be heating water when not needed.

[2 Oldcrabs]

Today's faucets are "anti scalding". Which means, if you turn it all the way to "hot" there is a certain amount of cold water still goin thru. If you turn up the hot water heater, it will help but cost more to operate.

[angiefox10]

So... If a recirculating pump cost almost $500 and also cost extra or the electricity... How long does it take to recoup your money from water not used to heat the water up three to four minutes faster?

[chuckinca]

I would guess the additional electric cost is more than the water saved cost.


.

[mrsanborn]

So... If a recirculating pump cost almost $500 and also cost extra or the electricity... How long does it take to recoup your money from water not used to heat the water up three to four minutes faster?

If my math is correct, you would have to use 290697.67 gallons of water @ $1.72 per 1000 thousand to equal $500. Let's figure a rate of 2 gals per minute with a warm up time of 2 minutes. This means you could warm up 72674 showers before reaching the $500 break even point. That's 199 years worth of daily showers! If figured at 5 gals per minute, it would be approximately 81 years.

[2BNTV]

If my math is correct, you would have to use 290697.67 gallons of water @ $1.72 per 1000 thousand to equal $500. Let's figure a rate of 2 gals per minute with a warm up time of 2 minutes. This means you could warm up 72674 showers before reaching the $500 break even point. That's 199 years worth of daily showers! If figured at 5 gals per minute, it would be approximately 81 years.

WOW - I don't think I can wait that long. :)

Seriously, I think the builder or the warranty should have covered this expense as it is a newly built home. IMHO

[applesoffh]

The recirculating pump is on a timer, so it's available when I'm ready and not "on demand" all day long. The pressure is fine. Either I'm wasting, and paying, for water by having it run for quite a while before it gets tepid, or I pay for electricity to run the pump to get hot water when I need it. 6 of one, half-a dozen of the other. It's just another instance of not knowing - up front - that this is an issue. As for setting the water heater temperature 10 degrees higher and hoping for a better result, that, too, IMHO, adds additional expense for something that should NOT be an issue in the first place. Don't even get me started about gutters.... We love our house and are working to make it our home. Have no regrets in the least, just wish we had been made aware - or were more "on the ball" - regarding some things we just took for granted.

[ljones190]

We also have the problem of hot water taking a long time to reach the MB. I usually turn the shower on while I shave and then the water is usually hot enough to take a bath. Increasing the temp. will not shorten the time it takes to reach the shower head, only make it hotter when it does get there. I did increase the temp. so the dishwasher performed better. We are considering replacing the water heater with a tankless water heater. There was a vendor at the craft show in Spanish Springs a couple of months ago. This would not help with the time problem, but would not be heating water when not needed.

We had a tankless water heater when we lived on the NJ coast, great product. Tankless water heaters need natural gas or propane, since you live in St James you have electric only so I think you are out of luck.

[getdul981]

We had a tankless water heater when we lived on the NJ coast, great product. Tankless water heaters need natural gas or propane, since you live in St James you have electric only so I think you are out of luck.

The ones that were shown at the craft show were not gas, but electric.

[graciegirl]

The recirculating pump is on a timer, so it's available when I'm ready and not "on demand" all day long. The pressure is fine. Either I'm wasting, and paying, for water by having it run for quite a while before it gets tepid, or I pay for electricity to run the pump to get hot water when I need it. 6 of one, half-a dozen of the other. It's just another instance of not knowing - up front - that this is an issue. As for setting the water heater temperature 10 degrees higher and hoping for a better result, that, too, IMHO, adds additional expense for something that should NOT be an issue in the first place. Don't even get me started about gutters.... We love our house and are working to make it our home. Have no regrets in the least, just wish we had been made aware - or were more "on the ball" - regarding some things we just took for granted.

My dear applesoft, you are having a lot of bad luck, with your windows and your water and your gutters too? What is wrong with your gutters?

In our old house in Cincinnati we had to wait a bit for the hot water to get to our master bath and it is the same here, but we had a problem with the water not quite being warm or hot enough and we called warranty and they sent a plumber to reset the shower settings. He said too that there are some non scald restrictions and he showed us how to adjust the shower. We too have a new home and we live in a brand new neighborhood and I kinda think that the statement that everyone was installing a recirculation pump is not accurate.

Now...If I am mimalizing your experience I am sorry, but I too am a new homeowner and I am not having the same experiences at all nor did I have them in our new home in Hadley three years ago. The reason I am making this statement is to keep those who are new to the villages or who have bought land and haven't built from worrying unnecessarily. I think your experiences are unusual.

I hope I haven't made you angry or hurt your feelings, Applesoft.

And what is wrong with your gutters?

[Bogie Shooter]

My dear applesoft, you are having a lot of bad luck, with your windows and your water and your gutters too? What is wrong with your gutters?

In our old house in Cincinnati we had to wait a bit for the hot water to get to our master bath and it is the same here, but we had a problem with the water not quite being warm or hot enough and we called warranty and they sent a plumber to reset the shower settings. He said too that there are some non scald restrictions and he showed us how to adjust the shower. We too have a new home and we live in a brand new neighborhood and I kinda think that the statement that everyone was installing a recirculation pump is not accurate.

Now...If I am mimalizing your experience I am sorry, but I too am a new homeowner and I am not having the same experiences at all nor did I have them in our new home in Hadley three years ago. The reason I am making this statement is to keep those who are new to the villages or who have bought land and haven't built from worrying unnecessarily. I think your experiences are unusual.

I hope I haven't made you angry or hurt your feelings, Applesoft.

And what is wrong with your gutters?

I agree with you Gracie.
BTW we are in our second Villages home and I have had to wait for the hot water in both of them. I guess I never realized it was such a big deal!

[angiefox10]

If my math is correct, you would have to use 290697.67 gallons of water @ $1.72 per 1000 thousand to equal $500. Let's figure a rate of 2 gals per minute with a warm up time of 2 minutes. This means you could warm up 72674 showers before reaching the $500 break even point. That's 199 years worth of daily showers! If figured at 5 gals per minute, it would be approximately 81 years.

I'm going to take your word for it! :icon_wink:

[dmorhome]

Think they would insulate the hot water pipes in the ground to conserve energy,I think it would cost about $20.00 worth of pipe insulation.build to spec,s there spec,s.

[cbear1958]

I am curious, we moved in this past December and have not had a problem with the water temp. It does take a little time to heat up (less than 2 minutes at the longest point), but the temp is fine.

I am a builder. I am still building in the northeast. We have never installed a recirculation loop in any house, nor have we ever had a problem with hot water.

Without a recirculation loop to keep the water moving from the hotwater heater to a point near the spigot (shower head, etc.) you are doing nothing but turning the water over in the tank.

The problem sounds more with the type of tank and its design spec's. You might try calling the hot water heater maker. Most of these companies have help lines.

The person who said that the shower heads restrict flow is correct. However, that is a code requirement (I am going by NY State Building Codes) and may not an option for the builder.

I am generally happy with what we purchased, but there are items which I would do different. However, we knew what the specs were before we decided to move.

Finally, jumping to the windows, I would go to the manufacuter and again take to there customer service line. You may be able to get some info which could help you with dealing with the warrenty dept.

Good luck!

[applesoffh]

No offense taken. My original post was to see if this was a common problem. If it had been, I'd say it was a design problem. Some people are having an issue, others aren't. We did what we felt was right for our situation.
We have absolutely no regrets about our house, the property, or TV. We moved down here for a better retirement and we aren't disappointed. We encourage our friends and family to visit, in the hopes that they consider a move here, also.
There are things that we hadn't anticipated in a new construction...that that we just assumed would not be an issue at all. This continues to be a learning process for us. For the thousands of Villagers who have never had a problem with new construction, that is probably the norm. I didn't question anything about our house until I began speaking to other people who couldn't understand why I wasn't going to Warranty with my concerns.

[kathyzapp]

No offense taken. My original post was to see if this was a common problem. If it had been, I'd say it was a design problem. Some people are having an issue, others aren't. We did what we felt was right for our situation.
We have absolutely no regrets about our house, the property, or TV. We moved down here for a better retirement and we aren't disappointed. We encourage our friends and family to visit, in the hopes that they consider a move here, also.
There are things that we hadn't anticipated in a new construction...that that we just assumed would not be an issue at all. This continues to be a learning process for us. For the thousands of Villagers who have never had a problem with new construction, that is probably the norm. I didn't question anything about our house until I began speaking to other people who couldn't understand why I wasn't going to Warranty with my concerns.

Glad that you are posting here with your concerns. I hope the Warranty Dept. helps you.

I hope that you get your money back for the recirculating pump. The plumbing in a brand new house should provide hot water to the whole house.

[aljetmet]

So... If a recirculating pump cost almost $500 and also cost extra or the electricity... How long does it take to recoup your money from water not used to heat the water up three to four minutes faster?

Recirculating hot water intrigued me so I googled it.

Found

FAQ page for the Green Plumbling Product that saves water - The Chilipepper CP6000 - Cure Slow Hot Water! (http://www.chilipepperapp.com/faq.htm)

This pump can be self installed probably for about $200 - $250. The key is you need an outlet under the sink. For newbies building that should not be a problem.

You may notice it uses X-10, which I have in my current house although my wife refers to it as F-10 and told me we can't have it in TV. We'll have to see about that now!

So what do you think?

[kathyzapp]

It seems like "applesoffh" needed the recirculating pump in order to get hot water to her shower.

But..........the BUILDER should be responsible for the installation and cost of the pump.

[Canabarrybarb]

I installed a recirculating pump in North Carolina and it worked well. But I was able to insulate both the supply and return lines as they ran through the attic.

My concern in The Villages is that we cannot insulate the existing supply line which runs underground. I also notice that after a shower it only takes a few minutes before the water coming out of the hot water tap is cool again - that suggests that the heat in the water line is being quickly absorbed by the ground. So hot water recirculation in a Villages house would really be better described as underfloor heating which would probably add a lot to your hot water heating bill.

[aljetmet]

I installed a recirculating pump in North Carolina and it worked well. But I was able to insulate both the supply and return lines as they ran through the attic.

My concern in The Villages is that we cannot insulate the existing supply line which runs underground. I also notice that after a shower it only takes a few minutes before the water coming out of the hot water tap is cool again - that suggests that the heat in the water line is being quickly absorbed by the ground. So hot water recirculation in a Villages house would really be better described as underfloor heating which would probably add a lot to your hot water heating bill.


Take a look at my post. It's a pump but it really does not recirculate.
You press a button and teh pucmp activates and very quickly you get hot water. It boasts that say you wake up in the morning press a remote and by the time you get to the bathroom the water is hot. I'm going to check reviews of the product as it may be worth while

[llaran]

:sing:Try turning the faucet all the way to the hotest, then add the cold when the hot comes in. You'll find that the cold makes a big difference depending on the time of year.

[OLD GEEKZER]

Have a handy man install it.. or do it yourself.

CLICK HERE (http://www.lowes.com/pd_77814-18701-500899_0__?zipCode=32162&firstReferURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lowes.com%2Fpd_7781 4-18701-500899_0__%3FcatalogId%3D10051%26productId%3D31352 31%26UserSearch%3Dhot%2Bwater%2Breciculating%2Bpum p%26Ntt%3Dhot%2Bwater%2Breciculating%2Bpump%26N%3D 0%26langId%3D-1%26storeId%3D10151%26rpp%3D24&catalogId=10051&productId=3135231&findStoreErrorURL=StoreLocatorDisplayView&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=%5Bcom.lowes.commerce. storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%407d7a7d7a%2C+ com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStore Bean%407e2a7e2a%2C+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator .beans.LocatorStoreBean%407eda7eda%2C+com.lowes.co mmerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%407f8a7 f8a%2C+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.Locat orStoreBean%403a003a%5D&UserSearch=hot+water+reciculating+pump&Ntt=hot+water+reciculating+pump&N=0&URL=TopCategoriesDisplayView&langId=-1&storeId=10151&rpp=24)