What is your hope thru your political responses?

[Guest]

Is it an obsession?

Do you really hope to sway other posters?...I mean really??

Of course we all know that we are given ONE vote, Is this vote worth losing a friendship?

and last but not least, what would you do to encourage a friendly political forum, let's call it our Political New Years resolution?

[Guest]

Is it an obsession?

Do you really hope to sway other posters?...I mean really??

Of course we all know that we are given ONE vote, Is this vote worth losing a friendship?

and last but not least, what would you do to encourage a friendly political forum, let's call it our Political New Years resolution?

A FORUM, by definition is an organized event where something is discussed. THIS IS NOT A FORUM...NOTHING ever is discussed.

As a charter member of this community, I came here to discuss, learn how others think and get different viewpoints on issues that confront the country.

If you read the posts on here, you will find it is simply somewhere to make up names for political candidates we disagree with and to vent our personal probems with churches, groups or whatever has bothered us through life....IT DOES NOT DISCUSS ISSUES at all. Fact is, it does not endorse DISCUSSION of any kind.

I post no longer because I never ever thought I would sway anyone but by offering my viewpoint or readings on issues that face us, I thought maybe I might learn something and share things but that has become a lost cause !!!

Currently we are discussing on here what a paid commentator said....WHO CARES is my thought...and of course the media feeds on this kind of claptrap. All it does is take us away from any discussion on Iran, deficit, the problems in the middle east, Syria, etc. The media feeds on this. For example, and I hope you will trust this is not partisan...just is that only the Republicans are having a primary.....Mr Romney can talk for 2 hours about our severe financial problems...Mr Paul can give us all food for thought on our budget problems and constitutional issues..Mr Gingrich can talk about our foreign relations problems...all of them for a long time giving their opinions on those issues....Mr Santorum will talk for 10 minutes about social issues which by the way will HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE ELECTION, and he will be the main story on all news channels and be discussed in here over and over, calling names mostly....never linking to readings...just playground stuff.

To encourage a friendly forum ? I dont think any political forum can be over friendly, but it can and should be civil (assuming it is all adults). There is NO attempt by anyone to call out folks for name calling, slander or any of those type of things...actually, it appears to be encouraged and AS ON ANY PLAYGROUND, if you have the biggest mouth and call the funniest names you become some sort of hero.

To encourage a CIVIL forum it requires those who really WANT a civil forum to police the others and for the administrators to pay attention.

We want our politicians to be civil....we want them to listen but we come on this forum and do just the opposite. We get the leadership we deserve.

[Guest]

Sure wish some of our posters would "turn over a new leaf"....Is it possible?

[Guest]

As I posted on the thread called "The Political Knitting Club",

"I write my posts, read them, re-read them, and then decide if I want to post them. I delete a lot while in the exam mode.

Public figures are fair game for comments. I am not going to make any apologies for my comments on public figures.

I am not going to call any forum member by a hurtful or foul name. I hope that will hold the same for any forum member to me."

Another poster on the same thread said in reply to my posting: "The public figures and their actions and words are fair game for derision in my view. I should be able to comment on your personal attack on a public figure without it being deemed a personal attack on you, though."

He is 100% right (actually far right, but I digress). He said also that the Political room is a place where a little rough and tumble is to be expected. Correct once again. We can abide by standards as we are adults but this is not a Pollyanna site, it is a members only site. Stay within bounds and there is no problem.

[Guest]

i will bite....i guess my reason for posting on these issues is to bring to the fore the realization among well-meaning life long democrats that their party is no longer the party of JFK. even the repub party is more to the left than ever, a consequence of growing dependence on govt, witness the latest flap about contraception...it seems our younger generation has been brought up to think that the taxpayers should provide everything in their lives...this is totally contrary to all the values that made America great...but, alas, i fear it is a losing battle as the big money conforms public opinion and manipulates the populace to obtain ever-increasing power...the power to destroy our way of life as we have known and loved it... i find it very sad.

[Guest]

ChaCha,

I am curious as to exactly you say are "all the values that made America great". It sounds good but exactly what are all those values?

[Guest]

It certainly is not and won't ever be an obsession.

No intention ever to sway anybody. Only give MY opinion or MY belief.

I don't understand the one vote, friendship loss. Probably because I cannot comprehend one being an issue at the expense of the other. There is always the old standby, agree to disagree. Which of course will not work for those who do come here to sway or convince others....or at least they play that game.

Most folks only want to post what they believe. There are a few who insist that any thoughts that do not align with theirs is unacceptable. By itself not bad. Some make a game out of the insulting, name calling, constant degrading of ANYTHING that is not in line with their thinking. Under the guise of anonymity they engage in constant degrading counterpoint. These same people most likely would not behave in this manner in a face to face discussion.

As the day to day proof here on this forum will substantiate, I do not think they would care to participate at any other level than they do currently.

I just don't let minority representations affect how I live or what I believe.

btk

[Guest]

.... He said also that the Political room is a place where a little rough and tumble is to be expected. Correct once again. We can abide by standards as we are adults but this is not a Pollyanna site, it is a members only site. Stay within bounds and there is no problem.



I've learned a lot from reading threads in Political, although I rarely post. IMHO members of the Political Forum have a right to a little "rough and tumble", and it's easy to skip over posts if you find them offensive. It is a members only site, and easy to "opt out". I personally find Political more interesting than reading repetitive posts complaining about restaurant service, roundabouts, and dog poop.

[Guest]

As I posted on the thread called "The Political Knitting Club",

"I write my posts, read them, re-read them, and then decide if I want to post them. I delete a lot while in the exam mode.

Public figures are fair game for comments. I am not going to make any apologies for my comments on public figures.

I am not going to call any forum member by a hurtful or foul name. I hope that will hold the same for any forum member to me."

Another poster on the same thread said in reply to my posting: "The public figures and their actions and words are fair game for derision in my view. I should be able to comment on your personal attack on a public figure without it being deemed a personal attack on you, though."

He is 100% right (actually far right, but I digress). He said also that the Political room is a place where a little rough and tumble is to be expected. Correct once again. We can abide by standards as we are adults but this is not a Pollyanna site, it is a members only site. Stay within bounds and there is no problem.

One more post...

ROUGH AND TUMBLE...absolutely. I have spent most of my adult life in and out of politics (REAL politics, not forums) and of course that is expected. HOWEVER, what you seem to manifest and feel proud of is less than civil. The name calling is, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO DENYING THIS, childish at best. Your time and those who wish to partake would be better served by understanding what civil discourse and discussion actually is.

I disagree that simply by being a public figure you are " fair game for derision". You surely are fair game for criticism but in my USA, it is done with some civility and respect that your opinion IS NOT THE ONLY ONE.

And you say "We can abide by standards as we are adults". Obviously our definition of ADULTS differs. I know of NO ADULTS who call public figures by name, and as you see this as YOUR forum, others read it..not just you and perhaps your cronies. This forum is losing posters and readers as a result of this kind of NON ADULT activity.

Again, you should enjoy your forum..the way you want it..no thought...no civility and absolutely without a doubt no discussion of ANY PERTINENT political issues that confront the country.

[Guest]

One more post...

ROUGH AND TUMBLE...absolutely. I have spent most of my adult life in and out of politics (REAL politics, not forums) and of course that is expected. HOWEVER, what you seem to manifest and feel proud of is less than civil. The name calling is, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO DENYING THIS, childish at best. Your time and those who wish to partake would be better served by understanding what civil discourse and discussion actually is.

I disagree that simply by being a public figure you are " fair game for derision". You surely are fair game for criticism but in my USA, it is done with some civility and respect that your opinion IS NOT THE ONLY ONE.

And you say "We can abide by standards as we are adults". Obviously our definition of ADULTS differs. I know of NO ADULTS who call public figures by name, and as you see this as YOUR forum, others read it..not just you and perhaps your cronies. This forum is losing posters and readers as a result of this kind of NON ADULT activity.

Again, you should enjoy your forum..the way you want it..no thought...no civility and absolutely without a doubt no discussion of ANY PERTINENT political issues that confront the country.

:BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplause:

[Guest]

I'm growing older......not up.

[Guest]

Is it an obsession?

Do you really hope to sway other posters?...I mean really??

Of course we all know that we are given ONE vote, Is this vote worth losing a friendship?

and last but not least, what would you do to encourage a friendly political forum, let's call it our Political New Years resolution?

Meaningful discussion is virtually nonexistent. I stick around simply to see if several of the diehards can get more off the wall than they have already demonstrated. I've decided not to make any more nasty posts but rather to sit back and laugh at those I read. Intelligent dialogue, if it exists, is certainly not on this Political Forum. Have your fun, I'll be watching.

[Guest]

I assume you know that you control the pace and intensity of this forum. I believe if you could take over management, their would be only 6 people left on the forum that are not banned. You must open your mind and heart to the rest of America and stop with the negative short sighted mentality.

[Guest]

One more post...

ROUGH AND TUMBLE...absolutely. I have spent most of my adult life in and out of politics (REAL politics, not forums) and of course that is expected. HOWEVER, what you seem to manifest and feel proud of is less than civil. The name calling is, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO DENYING THIS, childish at best. Your time and those who wish to partake would be better served by understanding what civil discourse and discussion actually is.

I disagree that simply by being a public figure you are " fair game for derision". You surely are fair game for criticism but in my USA, it is done with some civility and respect that your opinion IS NOT THE ONLY ONE.

And you say "We can abide by standards as we are adults". Obviously our definition of ADULTS differs. I know of NO ADULTS who call public figures by name, and as you see this as YOUR forum, others read it..not just you and perhaps your cronies. This forum is losing posters and readers as a result of this kind of NON ADULT activity.

Again, you should enjoy your forum..the way you want it..no thought...no civility and absolutely without a doubt no discussion of ANY PERTINENT political issues that confront the country.

Bucco: I happen to agree with both of your posts. You make reference that you were involved in politics so you know that the gap has widended greatly between liberal and conservative, Why that happened I leave to the historians but it has frustrated and paralyzed the legislative process.

Congress once had a healthy balance of liberal and conservative in both parties and they fought hard for their causes but at the end of the day they remained friends. Now it is a continuing game of one upmanship and conducted in a vile and angry manner

This one upmanship also existed for a time in corporation but leaders recognized the damage this was doing to achieving goals. Ergo the era of team building such as white water rafting, etc

As we find the situation today I don't believe that one person can sway another person's opinion because far too many of voters have never acquired critical analytical skills. For example, its easy, at face value, to accept that the government gives away free things but voters don't stop to think of what they are giving up

We need the Bill Buckley's and Pat Monihan's to achieve well thought out policies. The legislative process today from bill to policy is so poorly defined and defended that the government is implementing bupkus

[Guest]

I've learned a lot from reading threads in Political, although I rarely post. IMHO members of the Political Forum have a right to a little "rough and tumble", and it's easy to skip over posts if you find them offensive. It is a members only site, and easy to "opt out". I personally find Political more interesting than reading repetitive posts complaining about restaurant service, roundabouts, and dog poop.

OH, THANK YOU!!!!!!! I so agree!!!!

[Guest]

Bucco: I happen to agree with both of your posts. You make reference that you were involved in politics so you know that the gap has widended greatly between liberal and conservative, Why that happened I leave to the historians but it has frustrated and paralyzed the legislative process.

Congress once had a healthy balance of liberal and conservative in both parties and they fought hard for their causes but at the end of the day they remained friends. Now it is a continuing game of one upmanship and conducted in a vile and angry manner

This one upmanship also existed for a time in corporation but leaders recognized the damage this was doing to achieving goals. Ergo the era of team building such as white water rafting, etc

As we find the situation today I don't believe that one person can sway another person's opinion because far too many of voters have never acquired critical analysis skills. Its easy to accept that the government gives away free things et al.

We need the Bill Buckley's and Pat Monihan's to achieve well thought out policies. The legislative process today from bill to policy is so poorly defined and defended that the government is implementing bupkus


Good post RUBICON !!!

Your point is well taken. When I was younger and really involved, the media was made up of actual journalists, and there was no internet, and no cable tv. AND of course there was not this kind of money flowing.

What has happened is that the media has to fill in 24 hours on cable and the print media is competing with all the internet bloggers, etc. As a result, for one example, they hire folks to fill in that 24 hour cycle who have bias.....they SELL for doggone good money the ads on tv and I know for a fact that those folks buying ads have great influence as to what you see and hear.

The print journalist are not journalists any longer. They, in essence have become "hired guns" to the highest bidder as well.

Now, our voters instead of reading real journalist coverage have access to 24 hours of "stuff" and they choose to listen to only what they WANT to hear....they do not have to listen to facts anymore...if they dont like the facts, they can find somebody on some network or on some blog that will see things from their point of view. These people they listen to are looking for those advertisers as well so....

Our elected officials, for the most part...not all for sure...play to that background to get votes.

As I said in an earlier post....and again,not being partisan but there is only ONE party having a primary.......Mr. Romney could talk for 2 hours and make great points on our economy....Mr Paul could talk for an hour and make great points on the constitution and our spending....Mr Gingrich could talk for an hour and make great points on foreign relations....Mr Santorum could simply make a 5 minute statement but talk about contraceptives and bam....all the news is about that 5 minutes. There will be no discusssion of what is being said that matters, UNLESS of course one of those fellows makes a gaff. With that kind of media coverage, this is what you get.

It really makes me cry when I see groups of voters and I dont want to mention names of those groups and appear bias, but groups of americans who will vote AS A GROUP because they are a GROUP, NOT because they support the programs of the man or woman they voted for, but because they were TOLD to vote that way by media coverage of some other person of authority.

And for the record.....I was a VERY ACTIVE Democrat for many years....sufficiently active that I am proud to say I sat in many backrooms with candidates and staff planning, etc. I left the Democratic party and since being independent was not as trendy as it is today, I became a Republican. I have never in my life, EVEN when active as a Dem voted a straight ticket (not because I am so astute...just always found some guy that I liked on the other side).

I get my news from various places...NYTIMES daily...WSJ sometimes...a few sites on the net...I watch a few things on tv...but not much....because most of the tv channels are in bed with somebody.

This forum was unique at on time. For example, I am not real smart with the economics of the world and we had/have a poster who really knows his stuff. Now, I do not and did not always agree with him, but he posted links to read and that helped me either understand his view or drove me further away from his point of view. The point was he shared information and I learned from it. AND READING IS THE ISSUE...you have to read both sides...not just the side you THINK you are on and you have to HEAR what the other is saying.

This name calling crap and talkng about non sensical issues drives me crazy. What Rush Limbaugh said is NOT going to decide any election....right now, we have the media ignoring anything that does not sell to viewers...sex, etc. If they dont talk about contraceptives AND THAT WILL NOT WIN THIS ELECTION, then they have decided it is not news.

Sorry for the confused rant....but I come here and read and it is nothing but people calling other posters names....or calling people they never met....candidates...names as derisive as they can come up with and are PROUD of that......but they obviously do not understand anything about what is going on in this world except what their corner of the world tells them they should believe and it is sad. These posters make false accusation with no basis in fact...no link..nothing. THAT to me is slander.


PS....you mentioned Bill Buckley...one of my hero's even when I was on the other side from. I used too many words to simply say that we seem to be out of journalists.......

Sorry Rubicon...I certainly have no right to preach but I have apologized on this forum more that most posters have even tried to discuss an issue.

[Guest]

The Republicans have lost touch with their base. You have Santorum preaching like he is the pope and wanting to turn the USA into a theocracy.

You have Romney wanting to be like Joe Six-Pack by talking about all his friends who are NASCAR team owners and his wife drives 2 Cadillacs.

You have Newt who dares to talk about family values when he had affairs when married.

And that leaves Ron Paul. He would take us back to 1778 (when he was a teenager). Smart man but out of touch with reality.

Yes, the media used to be made up of real journalists - Walter Cronkite, Huntley and Brinkley, Edward Murrow, and Ted Baxter. We used to get news at 6 pm and read one newspaper for our daily news. Now, there are news feeds constantly - but you cannot read them all. Some people will not listen to news from CNN or Fox but still talk news with the those who listen to as much as possible.

Today, we can be very well informed as well as mis-informed.

[Guest]

ChaCha,

I am curious as to exactly you say are "all the values that made America great". It sounds good but exactly what are all those values?

wow, i have learned how to quote!

the values to which i am constantly referring are individualism, self-reliance, personal responsibility, honesty, good family morals, faith, pride in accomplishment, desire to serve others, and appreciation for our unique form of govt combined with a capitalistic system that gives anyone a dream of improving his lot in life...people in other countries do not have that dream....our grandchildren under socialism will never know what they are missing...they may become content and complacent but they will never be inspired again....this is what i find sad...don't you?

[Guest]

administrators had to edit.....I rest my case.....I just don't get it, why can't we agree to disagree, why does the tone become sooooo personal!

[Guest]

...... I just don't get it, why can't we agree to disagree, why does the tone become sooooo personal!

I think the frequent posters are agreeing to disagree. IMHO, the whole purpose of the Political Forum is to discuss areas of disagreement. It becomes personal when people are passionate about their beliefs and don't feel that they're being heard or understood. It's the nature of the Political Forum.

[Guest]

A FORUM, by definition is an organized event where something is discussed. THIS IS NOT A FORUM...NOTHING ever is discussed.

As a charter member of this community, I came here to discuss, learn how others think and get different viewpoints on issues that confront the country.

If you read the posts on here, you will find it is simply somewhere to make up names for political candidates we disagree with and to vent our personal probems with churches, groups or whatever has bothered us through life....IT DOES NOT DISCUSS ISSUES at all. Fact is, it does not endorse DISCUSSION of any kind.

I post no longer because I never ever thought I would sway anyone but by offering my viewpoint or readings on issues that face us, I thought maybe I might learn something and share things but that has become a lost cause !!!

Currently we are discussing on here what a paid commentator said....WHO CARES is my thought...and of course the media feeds on this kind of claptrap. All it does is take us away from any discussion on Iran, deficit, the problems in the middle east, Syria, etc. The media feeds on this. For example, and I hope you will trust this is not partisan...just is that only the Republicans are having a primary.....Mr Romney can talk for 2 hours about our severe financial problems...Mr Paul can give us all food for thought on our budget problems and constitutional issues..Mr Gingrich can talk about our foreign relations problems...all of them for a long time giving their opinions on those issues....Mr Santorum will talk for 10 minutes about social issues which by the way will HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE ELECTION, and he will be the main story on all news channels and be discussed in here over and over, calling names mostly....never linking to readings...just playground stuff.

To encourage a friendly forum ? I dont think any political forum can be over friendly, but it can and should be civil (assuming it is all adults). There is NO attempt by anyone to call out folks for name calling, slander or any of those type of things...actually, it appears to be encouraged and AS ON ANY PLAYGROUND, if you have the biggest mouth and call the funniest names you become some sort of hero.

To encourage a CIVIL forum it requires those who really WANT a civil forum to police the others and for the administrators to pay attention.

We want our politicians to be civil....we want them to listen but we come on this forum and do just the opposite. We get the leadership we deserve.Bucco, you are so right.

This forum, with a number of new members it seems, is even worse than it has been. I'll post every now and then to try to initiate a meaningful discussion of an issue. But it generally doesn't take more than a handful of posts for a few members to begin throwing ideological hand grenades or personal insults at one another. Take a look at some of the initial posts and then see where the "discussion" has evolved, usually by page 2.

I don't think many posters believe that they'll change anyone's mind here. But I for one maintain some faint hope that issues can be discussed and people with differing opinions can understand how others think about things.

But like I said, it's only a faint hope.

[Guest]

...We need the Bill Buckley's and Pat Monihan's to achieve well thought out policies....:BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplause :

[Guest]

Bucco, you are so right.

This forum, with a number of new members it seems, is even worse than it has been. I'll post every now and then to try to initiate a meaningful discussion of an issue. But it generally doesn't take more than a handful of posts for a few members to begin throwing ideological hand grenades or personal insults at one another. Take a look at some of the initial posts and then see where the "discussion" has evolved, usually by page 2.

I don't think many posters believe that they'll change anyone's mind here. But I for one maintain some faint hope that issues can be discussed and people with differing opinions can understand how others think about things.

But like I said, it's only a faint hope.

I know what you mean Kahuna. It's kind of like yesterday when I voiced my opinion on the Limbaugh controversy, and you commented that my defense of Limbaugh reflected rather poorly on me, and how I should be concerned how others would view me if I continued to defend a man who you said was some kind of deviant, or some other term.

It was a post totally directed to malign me personally, instead of just addressing the topic, or the thread itself.

Is that what you're talking about? If it is, I have to agree whole heartedly.

[Guest]

barf

[Guest]

ya can't change those who are in it for the recreation only!

btk

[Guest]

Do people use this forum to find religious or political truth?

[Guest]

I know what you mean Kahuna. It's kind of like yesterday when I voiced my opinion on the Limbaugh controversy, and you commented that my defense of Limbaugh reflected rather poorly on me, and how I should be concerned how others would view me if I continued to defend a man who you said was some kind of deviant, or some other term.

It was a post totally directed to malign me personally, instead of just addressing the topic, or the thread itself.

Is that what you're talking about? If it is, I have to agree whole heartedly.

Those were my thoughts, too, when I read the "scolding from the principal".

We are not subordinates of any single poster who thinks he/she has cornered the market on political analysis and taking the high road.

[Guest]

We are not subordinates of any single poster who thinks he/she has cornered the market on political analysis and taking the high road.

:agree: I was thinking exactly the same thing.

[Guest]

Those were my thoughts, too, when I read the "scolding from the principal".

We are not subordinates of any single poster who thinks he/she has cornered the market on political analysis and taking the high road.

There have been about 6 on here for years that only allow one way thinking. But now with new management, things have changed and are being managed fairly.

[Guest]

wow, i have learned how to quote!

the values to which i am constantly referring are individualism, self-reliance, personal responsibility, honesty, good family morals, faith, pride in accomplishment, desire to serve others, and appreciation for our unique form of govt combined with a capitalistic system that gives anyone a dream of improving his lot in life...people in other countries do not have that dream....our grandchildren under socialism will never know what they are missing...they may become content and complacent but they will never be inspired again....this is what i find sad...don't you?

chachacha: I share your definiton of what comprise values. There is one additional value essential to maintain a civil society and that is respect. But respect has to be earned. And respect once learned leads to trust.

The breakdown in our society can be traced back to all of the above values no longer having meaning.

I hate to sound like a broken record but the popular television shows reflect what our society has become.

Bucco description of journalism today is spot on in my humble opinion. It is indeed sad that the people who are charged with reporting critical events in our lives no longer can do so in a fair and balanced manner leaing us to distrust anything we read. As i mentioned in earlier post that old saw don't beleieve anything you hear and half of what you read no longer applies. For me it is trust but verify ...very light on the trust and very heavy on the verify

[Guest]

I just want to apologize to those who took my posts in the wrong way.

A quick explanation....not meant to be a "lecture" !

I am used to discussing, whether on line or in person, in a civil manner.

I do not believe in calling other folks by insulting names or cutsey names that are meant to insult...both posters and those in the public eye. I do not believe that serves any purpose except to perhaps make the person calling the names feel better about themselves.

I do not believe in making accusations about people simply to feed a desire to think you are actually discussing politics.

With all the implications thrown in here, ALL FALSE BY THE WAY, it appears after being a charter member, it is time I take my leave.

I am more interested in the problems facing this country rather than pursuing something that is identified with the initial R or D.

My posts were simply an attempt at fostering, perhaps, debate on issues and candidates that was based on something actual and real.

I for sure do not feel I am in a position to "lecture" anyone, and as far as taking the high road, if that is the case, of that I am proud.

In no way do I feel that I have any import to lecture anyone and am embarassed that some feel that way.

[Guest]

I just want to apologize to those who took my posts in the wrong way.

A quick explanation....not meant to be a "lecture" !

I am used to discussing, whether on line or in person, in a civil manner.

I do not believe in calling other folks by insulting names or cutsey names that are meant to insult...both posters and those in the public eye. I do not believe that serves any purpose except to perhaps make the person calling the names feel better about themselves.

I do not believe in making accusations about people simply to feed a desire to think you are actually discussing politics.

With all the implications thrown in here, ALL FALSE BY THE WAY, it appears after being a charter member, it is time I take my leave.

I am more interested in the problems facing this country rather than pursuing something that is identified with the initial R or D.

My posts were simply an attempt at fostering, perhaps, debate on issues and candidates that was based on something actual and real.

I for sure do not feel I am in a position to "lecture" anyone, and as far as taking the high road, if that is the case, of that I am proud.

In no way do I feel that I have any import to lecture anyone and am embarassed that some feel that way.

Bucco" You post was informative spot on and dare I say Kool. I suspect your humility had gotten the best of you and there certainly was no need to apologize...Keep thoses informed posts coming

Personal Best Regards: