Honor killings and religion.

[Guest]

Fear of Honor Killings: Immigrants Flee Families to Find Themselves - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,826648,00.html)


Honor killings in Germany -- it sounds like this is more about cultural and social norms than specifically about religion. The fathers and grandfathers were taught that such attitudes and behavior towards women is acceptable so the sons and grandsons continue this tradition of treated the women in their families as property.

[Guest]

years ago when i was living in madrid i met a vivacious young black woman who chatted happily but when i asked her where she was from she became indignant that i would ask such a personal question, and quite agitated...this article makes me wonder if she was in hiding, as well...her reaction was not really normal, although we americans are much more forthcoming with our private business than europeans...a sad state for these young women. and yes, it is in the koran that a man can beat his wife according to the method used by mohammed.

[Guest]

years ago when i was living in madrid i met a vivacious young black woman who chatted happily but when i asked her where she was from she became indignant that i would ask such a personal question, and quite agitated...this article makes me wonder if she was in hiding, as well...her reaction was not really normal, although we americans are much more forthcoming with our private business than europeans...a sad state for these young women. and yes, it is in the koran that a man can beat his wife according to the method used by mohammed.

That's true that wife beating is justified in The Koran...
The Koran instructs men to beat their wives: Six translations of Qur'an 4:34 (http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-wife-beating-koran-4-34.htm)

...but you can find a phrase in The Bible to make a case for almost any kind of criminal behavior as well.

[Guest]

...but you can find a phrase in The Bible to make a case for almost any kind of criminal behavior as well.

Well quote a few for us?

[Guest]

Exodus 21:7 sanctions selling your daughters into slavery.

Leviticus 25:44 says I can have slaves so long as they are from neighboring countries.

Exodus 35:2 says I should kill my neighbor if he works on the sabbath

Leviticus 24:10-16 says we should stone blasphemers. Would that be just Jews, Muslims and pagans or does it also include other branches of your own religion?

[Guest]

Well quote a few for us?

Do some research. You should be able to find quite a bit in the Old Testament as well as in parts of the New Testament.

Religious nutjobs who call themselves Christians have been doing this for at least as long as the Muslims.

Women who don't submit to husbands are to blame for domestic violence, says Baptist scholar // Current TV (http://current.com/entertainment/wtf/89109622_women-who-dont-submit-to-husbands-are-to-blame-for-domestic-violence-says-baptist-scholar.htm)

[Guest]

Exodus 21:7 sanctions selling your daughters into slavery.

Leviticus 25:44 says I can have slaves so long as they are from neighboring countries.

Exodus 35:2 says I should kill my neighbor if he works on the sabbath

Leviticus 24:10-16 says we should stone blasphemers. Would that be just Jews, Muslims and pagans or does it also include other branches of your own religion?

Do some research. You should be able to find quite a bit in the Old Testament as well as in parts of the New Testament.

Religious nutjobs who call themselves Christians have been doing this for at least as long as the Muslims.

Women who don't submit to husbands are to blame for domestic violence, says Baptist scholar // Current TV (http://current.com/entertainment/wtf/89109622_women-who-dont-submit-to-husbands-are-to-blame-for-domestic-violence-says-baptist-scholar.htm)

So where are all the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st century stories of Christian men selling their daughter's into slavery, killing neighbors who work on the Sabbath and stoning blasphemers?

(I purposely the other slavery comment because I knew the Antebellum South would be mentioned. There is much that can be discussed on that and if religion had a role, but it's a distraction for now)

You have to go far into Christianity's past to find correlation to present day Islamic teachings and edicts. It's ludicrous to equate Christianity with Islam, and I wonder at the motivation to do so.

[Guest]

So where are all the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st century stories of Christian men selling their daughter's into slavery, killing neighbors who work on the Sabbath and stoning blasphemers?

(I purposely the other slavery comment because I knew the Antebellum South would be mentioned. There is much that can be discussed on that and if religion had a role, but it's a distraction for now)

You have to go far into Christianity's past to find correlation to present day Islamic teachings and edicts. It's ludicrous to equate Christianity with Islam, and I wonder at the motivation to do so.

I never equated Christianity with Islam. You are creating a straw man, RichieLion, that I never put up.

Would like to see more actual facts about Islam than just Republican rhetoric though.

[Guest]

I never equated Christianity with Islam. You are creating a straw man, RichieLion, that I never put up.

Would like to see more actual facts about Islam than just Republican rhetoric though.

Seriously, you don't know how to search for all the atrocities committed under the direction of Islamic teachings?

I can't quite believe that. Also, to point to Republicans as the only ones concerned with the vile teachings of Islam is something I don't know what to make of. It might be a compliment to Republicans; although I know that wasn't your intent, but just your questionable attempt for a partisan shot of some kind.

[Guest]

Seriously, you don't know how to search for all the atrocities committed under the direction of Islamic teachings?

I can't quite believe that. Also, to point to Republicans as the only ones concerned with the vile teachings of Islam is something I don't know what to make of. It might be a compliment to Republicans; although I know that wasn't your intent, but just your questionable attempt for a partisan shot of some kind.

Absurd response.

[Guest]

Absurd response.

What's absurd about it?

You said you're tired of Republican views on Islamic atrocities. That's the strangest partisan reference I've probably ever heard. What's possibly could be more absurd than that.

You said you never equated Christianity with Islam, when in fact you brought up the correlation.

This is a strange dialogue today.

[Guest]

What's absurd about it?

You said you're tired of Republican views on Islamic atrocities. That's the strangest partisan reference I've probably ever heard. What's possibly could be more absurd than that.

You said you never equated Christianity with Islam, when in fact you brought up the correlation.

This is a strange dialogue today.

This entire thread is bewildering to me.

It appears to be an excuse to condemn christianity and use Islam as the model of goodness and virtue, which in light of the disgusting videos of beheadings which are still fresh in mind is somewhat puzzling and disturbing.

References to the OLD testament to make a point about beheadings and murder today seems a bit of...cannot even think of a word that would describe the disturbing nature.

PS I might add that reading this condemnation of Republicans concerning islam and then hearing the beginning of the attacks on Romney's wife really make me wonder about a lot of things

[Guest]

Bucco, you're not alone is wondering what is going on here.

[Guest]

Honor Killings; An Islamic Cultural Tradition « Persecution News (http://www.persecution.org/2010/09/13/honor-killings-an-islamic-cultural-tradition/)

Honor killings are more a part of the tribal culture of the people often doing them and not so much part of Islam.

That's my point. You will find the same kind of tribal thinking in the Old Testament as well as probably with some tribes that still exist in some parts of the world which have not had a lot of contact with modern society.

[Guest]

Richie: Just look to the 20th Century and the Ku Klux Klan. They claimed to be Christian and would lynch black men for dating (much less MARRYING) white women. They claimed that the Bible forbade mixing the races. I found the following:

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 (Marry your sons or daughters to 'them' and the anger of the Lord will be swift)

1 Kings 11:1-43

2 Corinthians 6:14

It's not nearly as forgotten a practice as you think.

But, you might say, the Klan doesn't represent Christianity, as a whole, in this country - and you would be correct.

...now, how many Muslims are in this country? How many, as a percentage, are terrorists? How many honor killings go on here?

I still think the primary difference between Islam here and religions overseas is the fact that, with prosperity, you suddenly have more to your life than ONLY religion.

[Guest]

I still do not get the intent of this thread at all. It makes no sense but the more I read, the more it "sounds" like I should be sympathetic to the muslims (even though they promise to kill us all) and not trust christians.

Also, it appears I should trust those muslims here in this country, which is fine, except those who killed so many americans in 2001 were part of that group prior to the killings.

It also appears that I should understand those not in this country because they are poor, and therefore those chilling videos of folks losing their head for the stupid reason they were americans should just be chalked off.

Now it also appears that somehow the Republicans got into this....not sure how that happened

I know I am dumb but just do not understand anyones intent here

I apologize....just realized you did NOT mention the Republican party....that was in the other thread about the communist party backing of reps and the President. THAT is where you mentioned the Republican party and the clan.

[Guest]

Honor killing in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States)

As well as this-- http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women

[Guest]

This is bonkers.

You guys are still equating obscure and ancient Christian writings with the current day practice of Islam as taught by it's leaders as we strangely debate this.

The parsing of words here is amazing and I can't wrap my head around what could possibly be the motives.

[Guest]

Richie used the word "parsing" in two posts today. Was that the Fox News word of the day? I have noticed that words on Fox any certain day will show up repeatedly on this post by the uber-conservatives that same day.

However, on the subject of "honor killings and religion", I seriously doubt if any poster on this forum is in favor of it and laws within the USA definitely prohibit honor killings no matter what religion you are.

[Guest]

Someone, sometime, come on here and explain the reason for this thread !!!

What it is that is to be discussed or what point is to be made ??????

[Guest]

Richie used the word "parsing" in two posts today. Was that the Fox News word of the day? I have noticed that words on Fox any certain day will show up repeatedly on this post by the uber-conservatives that same day.

However, on the subject of "honor killings and religion", I seriously doubt if any poster on this forum is in favor of it and laws within the USA definitely prohibit honor killings no matter what religion you are.

You last comment is totally irrelevant to the conversation. We're talking big picture here.

Thanks for your attention. I don't need anyone to prompt me on words. Your comment is actually just a bit offensive to me, though. The only FOX show I watched all day was Bill Reilly and that was way after that post.

What I want to say about that would be construed as personal, so I'll defer until I see you in person. I might give you a piece of my mind then. I just might.

[Guest]

This is bonkers.

You guys are still equating obscure and ancient Christian writings with the current day practice of Islam as taught by it's leaders as we strangely debate this.

The parsing of words here is amazing and I can't wrap my head around what could possibly be the motives.

Acrually they are ancient Jewish writings.

[Guest]

Someone, sometime, come on here and explain the reason for this thread !!!

What it is that is to be discussed or what point is to be made ??????

Atheist mud slinging?

[Guest]

Richie used the word "parsing" in two posts today. Was that the Fox News word of the day? I have noticed that words on Fox any certain day will show up repeatedly on this post by the uber-conservatives that same day.

However, on the subject of "honor killings and religion", I seriously doubt if any poster on this forum is in favor of it and laws within the USA definitely prohibit honor killings no matter what religion you are.

The Pac does seem to twist the motive for posts every which way they can.

My point in posting the article from Germany on honor killings was to show that culture and society also play a role in violence against women. It is also a good article.

I do not try to educate people whose minds and hearts have been made up a long time ago. There are others who also read these boards and hopefully get my point dispite the distractions thrown out at perfectly clear posts.

Incidentally, I am a Lutheran, not an atheist as some of the PAC seem to have alleged. I minored in Religious Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno.

[Guest]

Acrually they are ancient Jewish writings.

You are correct in the literal sense.

[Guest]

The Pac does seem to twist the motive for posts every which way they can.

My point in posting the article from Germany on honor killings was to show that culture and society also play a role in violence against women. It is also a good article.

I do not try to educate people whose minds and hearts have been made up a long time ago. There are others who also read these boards and hopefully get my point dispite the distractions thrown out at perfectly clear posts.

Incidentally, I am a Lutheran, not an atheist as some of the PAC seem to have alleged. I minored in Religious Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno.

So now you also use the ludicrous PAC label to belittle the individual thought of other posters. It's so stupid, as if anyone is consulting with anyone else in what to write. Now you're in the mud as well.

You were the first one to bring up The Bible in this thread about Islamic honor killings. YOU!!

'nuff said.

[Guest]

The Pac does seem to twist the motive for posts every which way they can.

My point in posting the article from Germany on honor killings was to show that culture and society also play a role in violence against women. It is also a good article.

I do not try to educate people whose minds and hearts have been made up a long time ago. There are others who also read these boards and hopefully get my point dispite the distractions thrown out at perfectly clear posts.

Incidentally, I am a Lutheran, not an atheist as some of the PAC seem to have alleged. I minored in Religious Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno.

1. I have no idea of what PAC means...I assume it is another way to slander another poster which is becoming the par

2. I still have no idea of what you were trying to educate readers on and I apologize but rest assured my mind is not made up on whatever you were teaching.

3. No intent to throw out distractions. I simply summarized what I read and asked a number of times for an explanation of what this was all about and never received a response so still confused.

4. I have no idea of what your religion means to anyone and have no idea of anyone calling you an atheist, so maybe you can speak to that.

Other than that....well, confusing is a bit of an understatement.

[Guest]

So now you also use the ludicrous PAC label to belittle the individual thought of other posters. It's so stupid, as if anyone is consulting with anyone else in what to write. Now you're in the mud as well.

You were the first one to bring up The Bible in this thread about Islamic honor killings. YOU!!

'nuff said.

Chachacha brought up the religious element of the honor killings in Germany, except that the article focuses on the cultural elements of it. It's a tribal tradition not so much a religious one. These honor killings happen because it has been done in these small communities some of whose members have immigrated to Germany.

It is like trying to defend blood feuds-- which have occurred since people starting writing things down-- based upon whatever religion happens to be in that society at the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud

"In the ancient Hebraic context, it was considered the duty of the individual and family to avenge evil on behalf of God. The executor of the law of blood-revenge who personally put the initial killer to death was given a special designation: go'el haddam, the blood-avenger or blood-redeemer (Book of Numbers 35: 19, etc.). Six cities of refuge were established to provide protection and due process for any unintentional manslayers. The avenger was forbidden from harming the unintentional killer if the killer took refuge in one of these cities. As the Oxford Companion to the Bible states: 'Since life was viewed as sacred (Genesis 9.6), no amount of blood money could be given as recompense for the loss of the life of an innocent person; it had to be 'life for life'" (Exodus 21.23; Deuteronomy 19.21)'." From the Wikipedia "Feud" article.



My point in bringing up The Bible is that even though it is a Holy Book it is still the work of probably hundreds of people over 3000 years. So, you find the same kind of tribal thinking within some of the writers of The Bible.

Pac refers to some of the Republican posters on TOTV ganging up on more liberal posters and attributing them positions they never took. It has happened again and again on these TOTV political boards. So much so that it is not much fun to even look at these boards, let alone post on them.

[Guest]

Chachacha brought up the religious element of the honor killings in Germany, except that the article focuses on the cultural elements of it. It's a tribal tradition not so much a religious one. These honor killings happen because it has been done in these small communities some of whose members have immigrated to Germany.

It is like trying to defend blood feuds-- which have occurred since people starting writing things down-- based upon whatever religion happens to be in that society at the time. Feud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud)

"In the ancient Hebraic context, it was considered the duty of the individual and family to avenge evil on behalf of God. The executor of the law of blood-revenge who personally put the initial killer to death was given a special designation: go'el haddam, the blood-avenger or blood-redeemer (Book of Numbers 35: 19, etc.). Six cities of refuge were established to provide protection and due process for any unintentional manslayers. The avenger was forbidden from harming the unintentional killer if the killer took refuge in one of these cities. As the Oxford Companion to the Bible states: 'Since life was viewed as sacred (Genesis 9.6), no amount of blood money could be given as recompense for the loss of the life of an innocent person; it had to be 'life for life'" (Exodus 21.23; Deuteronomy 19.21)'." From the Wikipedia "Feud" article.



My point in bringing up The Bible is that even though it is a Holy Book it is still the work of probably hundreds of people over 3000 years. So, you find the same kind of tribal thinking within some of the writers of The Bible.

Pac refers to some of the Republican posters on TOTV ganging up on more liberal posters and attributing them positions they never took. It has happened again and again on these TOTV political boards. So much so that it is not much fun to even look at these boards, let alone post on them.

Allow me to address your last sentence.

I know of whom you speak, and "gang up" is not fair in any sense.

MY only objection to those you speak of, AND I ASK YOU TO REVEIW AND WATCH CURRENT POSTS, THEY...

ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY attack individuals on a personal level.....THey NEVER respond to issues.

If objecting to that is "ganging up"...then I am guilty. NOBODY LEARNS anything from those kind of posts except a few more cute slurs to throw around and surely that is NOT considered to be political discussion

I would love for those you feel to be "ganged up on" to come back on ISSUES, not some personal shot or cute name aimed at a person..come back....lets discuss the issue. I am tired of seeing the name Palin everytime somebody feels a need to bash somebody.....I am tired of the little cute names used for people of the other party.....it really gets old but to folks like you, it is "ganging up" so case closed huh ?

Tell me why the Buffet rule is good in your opinion and lets discuss the goods and bads....tell me why the healthcare bill is so good....tell me why the President did what he did on that bill....lets discuss Syria, Iran, N Korea, Libya....lets talk about our lack of a budget.....but stop with calling people in the news names...it is disrespectful, and a bunch of other names but I will reserve them because then I am the bad guy again, but if anyone at anytime used any part of those names on the posters who use them with such ease, it would not be received well.

I would love and would anticipate somebody disagreeing with me on THE ISSUES and forget calling somebody a name. As much as I disagree with almost everything he stands for, I have never ever called him a name of disrespect, and have actually, here on this forum agreed with and supported some of his decisions.

I do not think I am a bad person for expecting adult conversation.

[Guest]

Who? Me?

You have not heard me say anything about the "Buffet Rule"; the lack of a budget; or foreign policy. I have mentioned lots of items in the Affordable Health Care Act and why I think they are definitely good for America.

As for expressing my opinion in any way I want about public figures, I am not going to apologize for that nor will I change. Public figures such as Allen West, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum deserve much criticism in my opinion as they represent what is wrong with the country - once again, in my opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I enjoy seeing others. You will not see me complaining about being ganged up on by uber-conservatives.

[Guest]

Did this thread ever get off topic.

But let me clear up something for all of you.

A moderate Muslim is the one who just ran out of ammunition.