Whole house surge

[raynitsche]

Any advise on purchasing a whole house surge? Also
would you buy from power company with monthly rent or
just have one installed?

[applesoffh]

we got ours from SECO and purchased outright rather than rent.

[jimbo2012]

If you've never had a loss due to an electrical surge in your house, you probably don't need whole-house protection.

You likely have such protection on your home owners.

If you do buy it, be clear about what it does. A panel that protects against lightning won't be effective against smaller surges, you'll still need the portable surge protector for small surges.

[784caroline]

Jimbo...I definitely disagree with your rationale. Just because you have never had loss of power due to an electrical surge in the past is no reason to beleieve it cannot happen in the furture . Lighting strikes are very random and can occur anytime any where.

For the first couple of years we did not have whole house surge protection, but then it hit. A lighting bolt struck our next door neighbors cable box, wiped out his computer and telephones.....while we had the resdiual effect of 3 breakers in our box trip. I could reset 2 of the reakers but the 3rd would not reset and i had to call an electrican who eventually found a short in a switch. After about 2 months I was experienceing a problem with my garage door opener and called in a repair man.......he showed me the black spot in my opener and asked if I ever had a power surge...had to replace the mother board in the garage door opener.

Fortunatley I had individual surge protection for my computers and TV and they were not effected.

For anyone I would highly suggest 3 types of surge protection. Protection in the main power panel (installed by a electrician), protection for your air conditioner (on the outside breaker box by the ac), and individual surge protectors for computers, TV, telephone and cable points of entry. I would NOT pay a monthly fee to have something installed by SECO in my Electric Meter. If you are going to put something there buy it outright....you will be using it for however long you live in TV.

BTW:: My biggest concern is not the loss of power/damage as a result of a lighting strike (Surge) but a lighting strike that may hit the gas lines in the attic.. Now if someone has the answer to resolve or minimize this problem (other than buying an all electric home) please let me and probably everyone that as gas lines know!!!

[jimbo2012]

Ok we disagree, but where was your insurance coverage?

I would think to put surge protectors on individual items would work well.

You didn't mention lightning rod type protection, I wonder if that may be a better investment.

For gas lines Ligntning.org says

"You should have a connection from the lightning protection system to the gas system. You should have a connection from the lightning protection system to the gas system, somewhere on the customer side of the meter. This stops the problem of lightning entering your house on the gas system piping. If lightning just tracks an underground pipe, it shouldn't cause any effect on that system. It would just be a part of the natural grounding of the lightning."

So I think the building code covers that, but it can be checked easy be looking at the gas lines.

Whole home surge protectors are about $225 for a good one and can be done by a DIY in 15 minutes or an electrician of course.

[KYTeacher]

we got ours from SECO and purchased outright rather than rent.

Approximately how much does this cost?

Thanks in advance

[CarGuys]

Jim Florida is a different beast when it comes to lighting and surge protection.

And while Seico is a good company and proivides great rate and professional service I elected to follow my builders advise.

I used Galaxy communications the same company that wired my home. I have a whole home surge protection panel in my garage tied into the whole home cable phone and power.

I can see it working and know if its been tripped. It also comes with a warranty and a good insurance policy.

Those of you know that insurance is a necessary evil. It's evil if you have to turn in a claim because Jim they dump you like a prom date down here if you have a claim or raise you rates to make you pay for it.

I paid maybe 75 dollars more than Seico and IMHO feel I have better coverage. Plus as a CarGuy I like looking at the panel when I go to the garage. Lost a neighbor who claimed to be my friend over this. He was furious I did not follow his advise and use Seico. Oh well maybe the $75 was worth it.

[missypie]

Such good info on this

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Approximately how much does this cost?

Thanks in advance

Here's the scoop from SECO on the cost to rent or buy:

Protect your equipment from lightning with SECO Energy's Surge Protection System (http://www.secoenergy.com/surge.html)

Bill :)

[westom]

I would think to put surge protectors on individual items would work well. Just because both use a similar name does not mean both are equivalent. The best protection possible is a short connection from each utility wire to earth ground. That must already exist on a TV cable or satellite dish. But that would harm AC electric and telephone service.

So make that same short as possible (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth via a 'whole house' protector. No protector does protection. Either the protector connects destructive transients to earth (just like a wire). Or it does not claim to protect from typically destructive transients.

A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Because a typical lightning strike can be 20,000 amps. We install protectors to make all surges irrelevant - tiny ones and direct lightning strikes. A protector must remains functional even after a 40,000 amp lightning strike.

The list of responsible companies that provide this are long including Square D, General Electric, ABB, Siemens, Intermatic, and Leviton. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Or the electric company can install one behind their meter.

But again, no protector does protection. An informed consumer spends little time worrying about the protector. And more time worrying about what does the protection. Single point earth ground. Nobody but the homeowner is responsible for that earth ground. Only earth ground does the actual protection.

A protector adjacent to an appliance has no earth ground. Does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. And can be so undersized as to fail during a surge. In rare cases, an adjacent protector even causes a fire. Just another reason why informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector. To protect those power strip protectors. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

What is seen - the protector - does not do the protection. An item most people do not see does the protection.

[raynitsche]

Thanks for the answers. Last question. Would a good lightning rod system eliminate the need for a surge protector? Do I need a combination of both?

Thanks in advance.

[applesoffh]

Sorry - I forgot to mention that when SECO installed the surge protector, they also game me a box of assorted protectors for computers, phones, etc. Back in NYC, lightning hit the driveway - not the house - and it blew out my computer, phones, microwave, because it was so close to the electric meter. I don't want to go through that expense again.

[zcaveman]

Thanks for the answers. Last question. Would a good lightning rod system eliminate the need for a surge protector? Do I need a combination of both?

Thanks in advance.

I am not an expert but I think you would want both. The lightning rod system will protect you from a direct strike from the heavens and the surge protector would protect you if the strike hits elsewhere and causes a ground surge.

I only have the surge protector. When I moved here they could only be rented. Several years ago SECO started selling them. Much cheaper in the long run if you plan on sticking around TV. They also gave me surge protectors for all of my electronics which I installed.

[raynitsche]

Thanks for the answers. One last question, would a good lightning rod system eliminate the need for a whole house surge system?

[jimbo2012]

First I want to say I think I'm wrong about just using surge protectors on individual appliances computers etc., they can't handle a strike from what I reading.
:throwtomatoes::throwtomatoes::throwtomatoes:

I'm reading that the lightening rod system protects the structure but not the electrical systems, so to be fully protected you need both + insurance (I wonder if installed you can get credit)

The unit from SECO doesn't protect phones cable tv etc I think.

For the money it looks like the ones sold for about $200 does protect those and they carry an insurance coverage of their own (if they really pay?)

If you can't handle the simple install an electrician shouldn't charge for more than a one hour service call. Try HD they have good ones and offer installation also, cost unknown.

When I build after reading the high rate of strikes in FL I'll install both.

The rods about $200 and the same for the surge protector.


This forum is a plethora of info.


.

[westom]

... would a good lightning rod system eliminate the need for a whole house surge system? First understand why damage happens. A surge (ie lightning) seeks earth ground. It uses wood as a conductor. Since wood is not a very good conductor, then wood is damaged.

Franklin simply connected that surge to earth. The lightning rod does not do protection. A lightning rod simply connected a surge to earth on a more conductive path. No building damage.

That was building protection. Lightning will also strike utility wires (overhead or underground) down the street. The surge uses appliances as a conductor. Since appliances are not a very good conductor, then appliances are damaged.

Protection is simply connecting that surge to earth. A 'whole house' protector simply connected a surge to earth on a more conductive (low impedance) path. No appliance damage.

In all cases, protection is about a current path used by any surge (ie lightning) to obtain earth. Either destructively through or inside a building. Or harmlessly outside.

Now, do you need both? Destructive surges occur typically once every seven years. A number that requires over a decade of neighborhood history.

Generally everyone needs a 'whole house' protector. Fewer need lightning rods. In both cases, less attention need be applied to a lightning rod or protector. Most attention belongs to the earthing system. Because a lightning rod or protector is only as effective as its earth ground and connection.

BTW, all phone lines already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. But again, it is only as effective as something that only you are responsible for. Single point earth ground.

[raynitsche]

Thanks for all the help. Now I'll try the a/c vs humidistat.

[Lightning]

After reading all of the posts let me say to BEWARE of the term "whole house" surge protection. Some think that all you need is surge protection on your meter (by your electric utility) OR on your electric panel (by an electrician). This is called Primary Protection to protect hard wired electrical equipment like your A/C, furnace, and others that you don't plug in. But that is NOT "whole house" surge protection. You also need Secondary Protection for anything that you plug into a 120 volt wall outlet that you value such as computers, TVs, microwave, refirg, washer, dryer, garage door opener, golf cart charge, or anything else with a micro chip. Therefore you need point-of-use surge protectors. If you go with SECO for the Primary Protection they will give you a starter kit but you wil probably need to buy more. All of this is for Indirect Lightning. If your concern is for the very rare direct lightning strike that can destroy your home then you need to consider lightning rods. See the Lightning Matters columns in the back issues of the POA Bulletins that can be found at the poa4us.org web site.

[Lightning]

[QUOTE=jimbo2012;495096]First I want to say I think I'm wrong about just using surge protectors on individual appliances computers etc., they can't handle a strike from what I reading.
:throwtomatoes::throwtomatoes::throwtomatoes:

I'm reading that the lightening rod system protects the structure but not the electrical systems, so to be fully protected you need both + insurance (I wonder if installed you can get credit)

The unit from SECO doesn't protect phones cable tv etc I think.

For the money it looks like the ones sold for about $200 does protect those and they carry an insurance coverage of their own (if they really pay?)

If you can't handle the simple install an electrician shouldn't charge for more than a one hour service call. Try HD they have good ones and offer installation also, cost unknown.

When I build after reading the high rate of strikes in FL I'll install both.

The rods about $200 and the same for the surge protector.


This forum is a plethora of info.


.[/QUOTE If your concern is a direct lightning strike to your home and an indirect lightning strike causing a surge that damages your electrical equipment you need both lightning rods and surge protection. For electrical devices you plug in and value you need point-of-use surge protectors.

I disagree with your estimated cost of lightning rods being $200. The cost for a villa will start around $1300 and for a premier it could be up as as high as $3500. It all depends on the size of the roof area including any bird cage. This is what a UL or LPI "listed" installer will charge. If you go with the far less expensive door-to-door people you have no idea if you are getting a system installed to NFPA 780, the national standard on lightning. And because lightning rods are not required by building code the county does not regulate the installers. Buyer Beware!

[Lightning]

Ok we disagree, but where was your insurance coverage?

I would think to put surge protectors on individual items would work well.

You didn't mention lightning rod type protection, I wonder if that may be a better investment.

For gas lines Ligntning.org says

"You should have a connection from the lightning protection system to the gas system. You should have a connection from the lightning protection system to the gas system, somewhere on the customer side of the meter. This stops the problem of lightning entering your house on the gas system piping. If lightning just tracks an underground pipe, it shouldn't cause any effect on that system. It would just be a part of the natural grounding of the lightning."

So I think the building code covers that, but it can be checked easy be looking at the gas lines.

Whole home surge protectors are about $225 for a good one and can be done by a DIY in 15 minutes or an electrician of course.

If your concern is with Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing (CSST) gas pipe, a thin wall pipe, that was the subject of a 2007 class action lawsuit you should be aware of the recent history related to grounding for both direct and indirect lightning strikes. In the class action lawsuit the court found that "CSST possess unreasonable risk of fire due to lightning strikes". Because the public had not been warned a $1000 or a $2000 voucher (depending on the size of the house) was offered to offset the cost of a lightning protection system, commonly called lightning rods, by a UL "listed" court appointed installer. The lightning system was grounded to the gas lines in two places - on the attic manifold and on the homeowner's side of the exterior gas meter. There is a national research project under way to re-vist the adequacy of this arrangement.

[jimbo2012]

I disagree with your estimated cost of lightning rods being $200. The cost for a villa will start around $1300 and for a premier it could be up as as high as $3500. It all depends on the size of the roof area including any bird cage. This is what a UL or LPI "listed" installer will charge.

Hold your lightning rod there :1rotfl:

There is no requirement that a UL or LPI certification is needed.

The NFPA 780, the national standard on lightning can be followed by anyone. Be aware NFPA-780 has no force in law!

I never said it costs $200 to install a system, that's what the parts are for rods, cable fittings etc.
Here's one online store (http://www.lightningrodsupply.com/index_files/page0001.htm) selling what's needed

They can be installed by the homeowner, if handy.
Just like a whole house surge protector. (there are U tube videos showing how )

If an in-stealer wants to charge that kinda of money for one days work that's up to you to shop around or not.


.

[784caroline]

Dont know about you, but I certainly would not want a handy homeowner (Including myself) installing a lighting rod protection system or a Primary whole house surge protection unit in my house. Thats what we have Electricians for!!

[westom]

Thats what we have Electricians for!!
Electricians spend years learning what must connect to what. An electrician rarely learns how electricity works. We (engineers) consult electricians to learn what must connect to what. Then use our engineering knowledge to say, "Oh yeah - that makes complete sense."

Why must a protector make a short as possible (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth? Most electricians do not know why and have never learned about 'low impedance'. Electricians are taught about human safety; not about transistor safety. An informed electrician earths a 'whole house' protector that 'meets' code. And also 'exceeds' that code. Now let's discuss the word 'exceed' as in what is required for surge protection and only understood by better informed electricians.

Every and any reader (even a 12 year old) can do this. Go to the breaker box. Find a quarter inch bare copper wire that connects that breaker box to earth ground. If that wire goes over the foundation and down to earth, then it meets code (as taught to every electrician). However that same wire means compromised protection. That wire is too long (excessive impedance). Also adjacent to other non-grounding wires. Has too many sharp bends. And other problems.

See that 180 degree bend over the foundation? Protection compromised. An electrician would not know that. Electricians trained by engineers would understand the defect.

That ground wire must go through the foundation and down to earth. Sharp bends removed. Wire separated from other non-grounding wires. Distance to earth seriously shorter. And a reality unknown to a majority educated by advertising.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That simple. Above described protection defined by how a protector connects to earth. And understood even 100 years ago. Meanwhile, unknown to a majority educated only by hearsay, wild speculation, or advertising.

How many feet does a protector connect to earth ground. The answer then says where hundred of thousands of joules are absorbed. Another sentence with critically relevant numbers. Protection is always defined by where energy dissipates. As in 'always'. As in '100 years ago'. As in not discussed by advertising or hearsay.

Did I mention why every telco switching center and munitions dump does not suffer damage? Because a 'whole house' protector and earthing is found in every facility that cannot have damage. They ignore hearsay, subjective claims, and advertising.

[Sable99]

I am waiting to install whole house surge protectionwhen I rent my home. Afterall, The Villages is supposedly the Lightning Capital of The World. Or, at least that is what I have been told. I was advised to wait until I had tenants so the company would know what the tenants required.

[westom]

The lightning system was grounded to the gas lines in two places - on the attic manifold and on the homeowner's side of the exterior gas meter. In the United Sates, nothing must be grounded to a pipe. Grounding to a cold water pipe is insufficient and now dangerous grounding - a code violation. Ground connections to gas pipes (to remove a fault current) vary with each gas company.

Pipes connect to single point earth ground (a dedicated wires) to 'remove' current from that pipe. So that current faulted into a pipe has a safer, more conductive, and dedicated connection to safety ground.

And yes, I said safety ground; not the other (earth) ground.

[Lightning]

Thanks for the answers. Last question. Would a good lightning rod system eliminate the need for a surge protector? Do I need a combination of both?

Thanks in advance.

NFPA 780, the national standard on lightning requires both. A Lightning Protection System (LPS) commonly called lightning rods protect your home in the event of a Direct Lightning Strike that has the potential to destroy your home. This is very rare - but it has happended 7 times in the last 8 years here in TV. You need surge protection for your sensitive and expensive electronic equipment that can be damaged by an Indirect Lightning Strike somewhere near your home. This happens more frequently. Be sure that you have both Primary and Secondary surge protection and don't be misled by claims of "whole house" surge protection. See the back issues of the POA Bulletins for the Lightning Matters columns at poa4us.org and the Lifelong Learning College catalog for more infomation.