Nutrition: People are being dumbed down by industry and media

[Villages PL]

To a certain extent, people are being dumbed down by the food industry and the media. Here's an example: In central Florida, there's a doctor of nutrition whose job it is to inform people about nutrition. She shows up on various radio programs as a guest to talk about nutrition and health. The most important piece of information she seeks to communicate to the public is that, "there is no such thing as bad food; it's all about portion sizes."

Over all the many years that I heard her deliver that message, I never heard her say who her employer was. Then one day I learned from a newspaper source that she is employed by a large supermarket chain. Is it any wonder why she would deliver the above message for her supermarket employer? About 3/4 of the food sold in supermarkets is processed junk. And they hope to sell it.....the more the better.

Most dieticians will tell you the same thing. I once went to a lecture given by a dietician in The Villages. She also worked for a supermarket chain and insisted that there is no such thing as a "bad food". She said whether it's candy, white bread or sugary soda, it's okay as long as you can fit the calories into your daily allotment of calories.

So, people are drinking the supermarket cool aid. The food industry is telling us what we should think and people are falling for it. The idea of "moderation" was also started many years ago by the food industry and today just about everyone is on board with that concept.

Is it any wonder we have a problem with the growing numbers of people who are overweight and obese?

[graciegirl]

When you and I were young, dad went to work and mom stayed home and took care of things. She cleaned the house, sewed, ironed, washed, hung the clothes out, cooked, planted a garden, canned and baked.

Now two people go off to work, and the children who are too young for school go to day care. The same time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals is no longer there. Moms work long hours and fly all over the country, dads do too. The houses are not as clean and the meals are no longer home prepared.

You cannot fault a supermarket chain for selling what people want to buy and you can't blame everything on poor nutritional choices. There just isn't as much time and so people are grabbing things that are fast and easy and not good for you in the long run. Parents are working on their childrens morals and studies and having a little fun too. It isn't the same as it was.

I think your diet choices are interesting but just not something that you can talk most people into. They really aren't as good as you think they are in my humble opinion. I think I eat healthier. But I don't preach about it.

One of the biggest differences from back then to now is that nutrition isn't taught in school any more.

You haven't mentioned what your cholesterol numbers are and your bp and your vitamin D blood levels and and your thyroid test results. Do you have these things tested?

Good nutrition and a good physician and a great spouse and a place to live that encourages a lot of moving around is so good for all of us as we age.

[Villages PL]

I think I eat healthier. But I don't preach about it.


Remember, this is the Medical and Health Discussion board. I don't preach, I discuss.

So, I guess this means you won't tell us what you eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner because you think it would be preaching? Oh, come on, this is not religion. You "preached" a long message as to why no one can help what they do, so you might as well go all the way and tell us what your diet consists of.

:)

[bluedog103]

When you and I were young, dad went to work and mom stayed home and took care of things. She cleaned the house, sewed, ironed, washed, hung the clothes out, cooked, planted a garden, canned and baked.

Now two people go off to work, and the children who are too young for school go to day care. The same time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals is no longer there. Moms work long hours and fly all over the country, dads do too. The houses are not as clean and the meals are no longer home prepared.

You cannot fault a supermarket chain for selling what people want to buy and you can't blame everything on poor nutritional choices. There just isn't as much time and so people are grabbing things that are fast and easy and not good for you in the long run. Parents are working on their childrens morals and studies and having a little fun too. It isn't the same as it was.

I think your diet choices are interesting but just not something that you can talk most people into. They really aren't as good as you think they are in my humble opinion. I think I eat healthier. But I don't preach about it.

One of the biggest differences from back then to now is that nutrition isn't taught in school any more.

You haven't mentioned what your cholesterol numbers are and your bp and your vitamin D blood levels and and your thyroid test results. Do you have these things tested?

Good nutrition and a good physician and a great spouse and a place to live that encourages a lot of moving around is so good for all of us as we age.
Great real world post Gracie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

[pooh]

Quick question....how do you feel about probiotics? They're in the news lots lately.

[Villages PL]

Great real world post Gracie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

The real world example Gracie gave was for a young couple rushing around and too busy to prepare proper meals for the family. I'm not sure I completely buy it because there are healthier choices even for people who don't have the time to cook. And that doesn't explain the vast numbers of overweight and obese people living in the villages. Now that they have the time to cook their meals and exercise, what's their excuse? It seems they are not doing any better now than when they were running around raising a family. So how can it be blamed on the family and jobs?

[manaboutown]

While I was the gym this morning doing my cardio on an elliptical "The View" had a guest who is a trainer named Drew who has written a book "Fit 2 Fat 2 Fit" or something like that. Anyway, the guy went from a hard body at 190 something to about 265 lbs. by stopping training and eating a diet many Americans eat including a lot of starchy, fatty processed food such as macaroni and cheese, sugary foods and sodas and some fast food. He then dieted and trained back down to his previous condition. He says he wanted to see what his clients were dealing with in trying to lose weight and get into good physical condition. His personality changed for the worse according to his wife and he lost energy while fat.

As I understand it over 60% of Americans are now considerably overweight. The sugar, fats, excess salt and whitebread type carbohydrates are largely responsible along with a frequently stressful life which raises their cortisol levels and a sedentary lifestyle. Processed foods are loaded with salt. Restaurants frequently add sugar, butter and the like to make their food tasty. I thank the OP for pointing out we need to discover who is sponsoring a message before we choose to treat it as truthful and factual or not.

[Bogie Shooter]

While I was the gym this morning doing my cardio on an elliptical "The View" had a guest who is a trainer named Drew who has written a book "Fit 2 Fat 2 Fit" or something like that. Anyway, the guy went from a hard body at 190 something to about 265 lbs. by stopping training and eating a diet many Americans eat including a lot of starchy, fatty processed food such as macaroni and cheese, sugary foods and sodas and some fast food. He then dieted and trained back down to his previous condition. He says he wanted to see what his clients were dealing with in trying to lose weight and get into good physical condition. His personality changed for the worse according to his wife and he lost energy while fat.

As I understand it over 60% of Americans are now considerably overweight. The sugar, fats, excess salt and whitebread type carbohydrates are largely responsible along with a frequently stressful life which raises their cortisol levels and a sedentary lifestyle. Processed foods are loaded with salt. Restaurants frequently add sugar, butter and the like to make their food tasty. I thank the OP for pointing out we need to discover who is sponsoring a message before we choose to treat it as truthful and factual or not.

Just like posts on TOTV.

[Villages PL]

Quick question....how do you feel about probiotics? They're in the news lots lately.

It depends on your individual health status. Sometimes medications interfere
with colon health. Poor diet can be another cause. Or medications and diet combined etc..

[ilovetv]

Here we go again. Another pompous, pharisaical Food Police encyclical.

phar·i·sa·ical adj \-ˈsā-ə-kəl\

Definition of PHARISAICAL

: marked by hypocritical censorious self-righteousness

— phar·i·sa·ical·ly adverb

[jimbo2012]

They really aren't as good as you think they are in my humble opinion.

Can you please give us your opinion as to why?

You haven't mentioned what your cholesterol numbers are and your bp and your vitamin D blood levels and and your thyroid test results. Do you have these things tested?

I tell you my #'s chol 125, BP 110/71, vit D 53, t3&4's all within normal range
My wife's #'s are similar, both of us no longer take ANY meds.

Do I have these tested, yes and lot more, I don't pay for it, why not once they stick your vein a few more tubes.

Different tests quarterly semi annually etc.

we were inspired by Bill Clinton, when interviewed on CNN by Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
He follows Dr Dean Ornish, Dr. Esseltyn, Dr. Colin Campbell

Google any of those names

Villages PL or myself are not preaching anything and I take offense to that comment frankly.

If you wish to mitigate your risks of debilitating ailments which preclude you from enjoying the active lifestyle you desired by living here and enjoying your life in a healthy state of being at least have an open mind to understanding the benefits of vegetarian or vegan diets.

.

[njbchbum]

[snip]
And that doesn't explain the vast numbers of overweight and obese people living in the villages. Now that they have the time to cook their meals and exercise, what's their excuse?
[snip]


they don't NEED an excuse...they DON'T want to...they DON''T have to...they DON'T care!

[Bogie Shooter]

Bill...................we need :popcorn::popcorn: over here.

[jpharmat]

I totally agree with what Villges PL has posted. Many Americans have such a poor diet and don't get enough exercise. Far to many people are obese with multiple health problems related to their obesity. As we all know there are many bad foods available to us... it is all about making healthy choices. Portion size is important as well as getting off the couch to exercise.

[cathyw]

I'm shocked by the rudeness of this comment. pooh asked Villages Pl a direct question and Villages Pl answered it, short and sweet. I enjoy what VillagesPl has been saying and we can all learn about things on this forum that we are unfamiliar with. We don't have to agrree with everyone but we should show respect.

[jimbo2012]

Bill...................we need :popcorn::popcorn: over here.

Is it air popped?

[graciegirl]

...

[jimbo2012]

A long list of celebs have made the switch to a vegan diet due to concerns for their health. The documentary “Forks Over Knives” has played a big role, inspiring star after star to go plant-based including Ozzy Osbourne, Carrie Ann Inaba, Kristen Bell and Russell Brand. One of the most talked-about healthy vegans has been Bill Clinton, who ditched animal products after a number of cardiac problems and procedures.

The latest celeb to talk about their vegan diet is Michelle Pfeiffer, who opened up to Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN. In the appearance on “Piers Morgan Tonight,” which airs tonight at 9pm, Pfeiffer tells Gupta that she decided to try a vegan diet after watching CNN’s “The Last Heart Attack.” The special discussed plant-based diets as a possible way to prevent heart disease and other conditions.

“I was finishing up working on, I think it was ‘Dark Shadows.’ And I was watching CNN, and ‘The Last Heart Attack’ came on.” The actress describes herself as a “foodie,” but was hopeful after she heard Clinton wasn’t struggling with his vegan diet. “OK, Bill Clinton loves food, so there must be something to [veganism] that’s making him stick to it. And also, he’s smart, so he’s not going to do something unless he really thinks there’s some science behind it,” she said.

Pfeiffer also credits Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn‘s book “Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure” with informing her decision. “I just felt like…there was science behind it. And, you know, it was sort of irrefutable. … I couldn’t not listen to it. My father died from cancer, and the older you get, there’s a lot of disease around you. And you see people struggling with chronic disease. You see people dying with terminal illnesses. And if in any way …. this is true, then you kind of have to listen to it,” Pfeiffer said.

The actress says her health isn’t the only reason for the new diet. “Vanity is right under there,” she admits, “but I have to say that it’s a close second with wanting to live long.”

[RichieLion]

I don't worry so much about any of this. I have an intensive workout at the gym 3 times a week, and look at food in terms of protein and vitamins and nutrients generally associated with them. I don't obsess about it. I pretty much eat anything I feel like eating, and try to eat things I know are mainly "empty" calories in moderation. Everything in moderation.

I don't ban delicious food from my diet for some notion of "bad nutrition". I just don't pig out on it.

Every so often you crave a good hot dog. When I do, I don't deny myself.

[golf4me]

A long list of celebs have made the switch to a vegan diet due to concerns for their health. The documentary “Forks Over Knives” has played a big role, inspiring star after star to go plant-based including Ozzy Osbourne, Carrie Ann Inaba, Kristen Bell and Russell Brand. One of the most talked-about healthy vegans has been Bill Clinton, who ditched animal products after a number of cardiac problems and procedures.

The latest celeb to talk about their vegan diet is Michelle Pfeiffer, who opened up to Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN. In the appearance on “Piers Morgan Tonight,” which airs tonight at 9pm, Pfeiffer tells Gupta that she decided to try a vegan diet after watching CNN’s “The Last Heart Attack.” The special discussed plant-based diets as a possible way to prevent heart disease and other conditions.

“I was finishing up working on, I think it was ‘Dark Shadows.’ And I was watching CNN, and ‘The Last Heart Attack’ came on.” The actress describes herself as a “foodie,” but was hopeful after she heard Clinton wasn’t struggling with his vegan diet. “OK, Bill Clinton loves food, so there must be something to [veganism] that’s making him stick to it. And also, he’s smart, so he’s not going to do something unless he really thinks there’s some science behind it,” she said.

Pfeiffer also credits Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn‘s book “Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure” with informing her decision. “I just felt like…there was science behind it. And, you know, it was sort of irrefutable. … I couldn’t not listen to it. My father died from cancer, and the older you get, there’s a lot of disease around you. And you see people struggling with chronic disease. You see people dying with terminal illnesses. And if in any way …. this is true, then you kind of have to listen to it,” Pfeiffer said.

The actress says her health isn’t the only reason for the new diet. “Vanity is right under there,” she admits, “but I have to say that it’s a close second with wanting to live long.”

Michelle Pfeiffer AND Bill Clinton? wow

[renielarson]

When you and I were young, dad went to work and mom stayed home and took care of things. She cleaned the house, sewed, ironed, washed, hung the clothes out, cooked, planted a garden, canned and baked.

Now two people go off to work, and the children who are too young for school go to day care. The same time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals is no longer there. Moms work long hours and fly all over the country, dads do too. The houses are not as clean and the meals are no longer home prepared.

You cannot fault a supermarket chain for selling what people want to buy and you can't blame everything on poor nutritional choices. There just isn't as much time and so people are grabbing things that are fast and easy and not good for you in the long run. Parents are working on their childrens morals and studies and having a little fun too. It isn't the same as it was.

I think your diet choices are interesting but just not something that you can talk most people into. They really aren't as good as you think they are in my humble opinion. I think I eat healthier. But I don't preach about it.

One of the biggest differences from back then to now is that nutrition isn't taught in school any more.

You haven't mentioned what your cholesterol numbers are and your bp and your vitamin D blood levels and and your thyroid test results. Do you have these things tested?

Good nutrition and a good physician and a great spouse and a place to live that encourages a lot of moving around is so good for all of us as we age.

“Be curious, not judgmental.” – Walt Whitman
“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous

When I was young my mom did not stay home. She and my dad both taught school. Yet, she not only worked, but she also took care of "things". She cleaned the house, sewed, ironed, washed, hung the clothes out (until she and dad saved enough money to buy a dryer), cooked, baked, had a huge flower garden, and mothered her 3 daughters with love, respect, and devotion.

Quote..."Now two people go off to work, and the children who are too young for school go to day care. The same time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals is no longer there. Moms work long hours and fly all over the country, dads do too. The houses are not as clean and the meals are no longer home prepared." Unquote

I take offense to this statement. My children are married with children of their own. One family sends their children to day care. The other doesn't. Yet, the time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals IS there for both. Their houses are clean and their meals are home prepared and most meals are made from scratch. Nutrition is important in addition to keeping their children actively involved in sports plus family activities that bind families.

Quote... "Parents are working on their childrens morals and studies..." Unquote

Fortunately, my children are doing this with my grandchildren. However, as a retired elementary school teacher (just 3 years ago), this is not the norm. More children are rude and disrespectful today than 30 years ago when I began teaching. As for "working on their studies"...many (not all) parents don't find this as an important part of parenting nowadays. Yet the teacher is always blamed for the child's lack of progress because many parents don't take accountability for being an integral part of their child's success.

Quote..."You cannot fault a supermarket chain for selling what people want to buy and you can't blame everything on poor nutritional choices." Unquote

You are right...it's not the supermarket's fault. But I can blame poor nutritional choices on parents who make bad choices for their children. I also blame the effect advertising has. If I can't blame the parent for making bad choices for their children, then who is to blame?

Quote..."One of the biggest differences from back then to now is that nutrition isn't taught in school any more." Unquote

Oh yes it is! It was part of my curriculum and we (I) talked about it all the time. If you pull a school aged child aside and question them about what foods are good for them and what foods aren't....they know!

Quote..."They really aren't as good as you think they are in my humble opinion. I think I eat healthier." Unquote

Why is your diet healthier? Why is a vegan/vegetarian diet not as healthy? Please provide support for your opinion so I can validate why you said this. My son is a vegan and his children (ages 1 and 7) are vegetarian. Let me tell you, I haven't seen anyone eat as many fruits, vegetables, grains, and proteins as they do! Even though my vegan son doesn't eat dairy (or anything related to animal products nor wear anything animal related) he gets his calcium in dark veggies, tofu, soy milk, and orange juice. My grandchildren are vegetarian so they eat a lot of dairy. Both my son's and his children's diets are a lot healthier than mine and I watch mine very closely.

[graciegirl]

“Be curious, not judgmental.” – Walt Whitman
“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous

When I was young my mom did not stay home. She and my dad both taught school. Yet, she not only worked, but she also took care of "things". She cleaned the house, sewed, ironed, washed, hung the clothes out (until she and dad saved enough money to buy a dryer), cooked, baked, had a huge flower garden, and mothered her 3 daughters with love, respect, and devotion.

Quote..."Now two people go off to work, and the children who are too young for school go to day care. The same time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals is no longer there. Moms work long hours and fly all over the country, dads do too. The houses are not as clean and the meals are no longer home prepared." Unquote

I take offense to this statement. My children are married with children of their own. One family sends their children to day care. The other doesn't. Yet, the time and attention given to making a home and providing healthy meals IS there for both. Their houses are clean and their meals are home prepared and most meals are made from scratch. Nutrition is important in addition to keeping their children actively involved in sports plus family activities that bind families.

Quote... "Parents are working on their childrens morals and studies..." Unquote

Fortunately, my children are doing this with my grandchildren. However, as a retired elementary school teacher (just 3 years ago), this is not the norm. More children are rude and disrespectful today than 30 years ago when I began teaching. As for "working on their studies"...many (not all) parents don't find this as an important part of parenting nowadays. Yet the teacher is always blamed for the child's lack of progress because many parents don't take accountability for being an integral part of their child's success.

Quote..."You cannot fault a supermarket chain for selling what people want to buy and you can't blame everything on poor nutritional choices." Unquote

You are right...it's not the supermarket's fault. But I can blame poor nutritional choices on parents who make bad choices for their children. I also blame the effect advertising has. If I can't blame the parent for making bad choices for their children, then who is to blame?

Quote..."One of the biggest differences from back then to now is that nutrition isn't taught in school any more." Unquote

Oh yes it is! It was part of my curriculum and we (I) talked about it all the time. If you pull a school aged child aside and question them about what foods are good for them and what foods aren't....they know!

Quote..."They really aren't as good as you think they are in my humble opinion. I think I eat healthier." Unquote

Why is your diet healthier? Why is a vegan/vegetarian diet not as healthy? Please provide support for your opinion so I can validate why you said this. My son is a vegan and his children (ages 1 and 7) are vegetarian. Let me tell you, I haven't seen anyone eat as many fruits, vegetables, grains, and proteins as they do! Even though my vegan son doesn't eat dairy (or anything related to animal products nor wear anything animal related) he gets his calcium in dark veggies, tofu, soy milk, and orange juice. My grandchildren are vegetarian so they eat a lot of dairy. Both my son's and his children's diets are a lot healthier than mine and I watch mine very closely.


Boy Howdy.

[jimbo2012]

Boy Howdy.

R U going to reply to my questions or flipflopz at least?

[graciegirl]

R U going to reply to my questions or flipflopz at least?

No. My husband of fifty years, that sweet man, told me long ago that you can't win a ****ing contest. :) ;):wave:

[bluedog103]

R U going to reply to my questions or flipflopz at least?
She just did. You just missed what she was saying.

[jimbo2012]

guess so........oh fun :icon_hungry:

[Bogie Shooter]

No. My husband of fifty years, that sweet man, told me long ago that you can't win a ****ing contest. :) ;):wave:

You go girl!!!!

[Villages PL]

Here we go again. Another pompous, pharisaical Food Police encyclical.

phar·i·sa·ical adj \-ˈsā-ə-kəl\

Definition of PHARISAICAL

: marked by hypocritical censorious self-righteousness

— phar·i·sa·ical·ly adverb

Yes, here we go again. Another post with nothing substantive to add to the discussion, other than name calling.

[Golfer in Sanibel]

No. My husband of fifty years, that sweet man, told me long ago that you can't win a ****ing contest. :) ;):wave:

That sound like some of that Mid-western wisdom.

[Villages PL]

they don't NEED an excuse...they DON'T want to...they DON''T have to...they DON'T care!

And when they show up at the ER with a heart attack or stroke, is that when they start caring? If they don't care, they shouldn't call 911 to begin with. They should have the good sense to just stay home and die so we don't have to pay higher insurance premiums for their $50,000 dollar by-pass surgery.

[Villages PL]

Is it air popped?

If it has butter on it, I hope the butter comes from cows that are grass fed. Then the butter will be high in omega-3. Grain fed cows are high in omega-6.

:popcorn:

[jimbo2012]

Butter, no dairy, I'm sure you know of the link with Casein.

Just sea salt.

[Villages PL]

I don't worry so much about any of this. I have an intensive workout at the gym 3 times a week, and look at food in terms of protein and vitamins and nutrients generally associated with them. I don't obsess about it. I pretty much eat anything I feel like eating, and try to eat things I know are mainly "empty" calories in moderation. Everything in moderation.

I don't ban delicious food from my diet for some notion of "bad nutrition". I just don't pig out on it.

Every so often you crave a good hot dog. When I do, I don't deny myself.

Your intensive workouts may cancel out some of the harmful effects of the occasional fast food items that you eat. If only everyone would be as consciencious about working out.

Good luck and good health.

[Villages PL]

No. My husband of fifty years, that sweet man, told me long ago that you can't win a ****ing contest. :) ;):wave:

The only thing required here is to be thoughtful and truthful. Is that too much to ask?

[Villages PL]

Butter, no dairy, I'm sure you know of the link with Casein.

Just sea salt.

Okay, sounds good to me.

[ariel]

I love book clubs. I enjoy the discussion and I don't remember a single time that anyone has been negatively criticized for their opinions or impressions although frequently these vary a lot from participant to participant. I learn something new every time I participate in or listen to any discussion.

I think discussions of health and nutrition are good and can be a learning experience for all of us. We might not agree nor change our habits - even if the data are overwhelming. But we should probably listen, consider what we hear, and maybe read a little more about it. We can't deny that there are many health problems with clear (science) nutritional links.

I enjoy the discussions.

[ilovetv]

If it has butter on it, I hope the butter comes from cows that are grass fed. Then the butter will be high in omega-3. Grain fed cows are high in omega-6.

Anyone who has actually raised dairy cattle and farmed the crops that feed them knows they're fed both.

And if you'd ever shoveled their sh*t, you'd know it all looks, squirts, and stinks the same.

[njbchbum]

villages pl - ya know what - you can have the last word in our tit-for-tat because your proselytizing is not worthy of my time. i have laundry to do. have a great dietetic day.

[RedChariot]

And when they show up at the ER with a heart attack or stroke, is that when they start caring? If they don't care, they shouldn't call 911 to begin with. They should have the good sense to just stay home and die so we don't have to pay higher insurance premiums for their $50,000 dollar by-pass surgery.

Surely you don't mean this. How unkind. If someone gets Cancer should we in the medical field say well he didn't do everything he should have done in life so lets just toss him aside. Sometimes everything is not in our control. We are human. Not perfect. Please don't judge that obese person until you have gone through their life experience. Same for the alcholic and drug addicted. The obese are becoming the current day leper. Sad.

[jimbo2012]

Surely you don't mean this. How unkind. If someone gets Cancer should we in the medical field say well he didn't do everything he should have done in life so lets just toss him aside. Sometimes everything is not in our control. We are human. Not perfect. Please don't judge that obese person until you have gone through their life experience. Same for the alcholic and drug addicted.

I don't think that was the meaning - sounds like tough love!

But the comment was not directed at cancer alcoholism or drug addition, it was directed at cardiac vascular events that are detectable, controllable with diet & exercise.

The obese are becoming the current day leper. Sad.

Not so sad, as avoidable & reversible.


Not sure why a few folks are getting uptight about these issues, Google this stuff it's all out there.
Discuss don't argue it's a forum to exchange ideas!!!!


Eat better live longer - or not!

"Be happy while you're living, for you're a long time dead."
- Scottish Proverb

.

[graciegirl]

...

[Villages PL]

Anyone who has actually raised dairy cattle and farmed the crops that feed them knows they're fed both.

And if you'd ever shoveled their sh*t, you'd know it all looks, squirts, and stinks the same.

I lived on a dairy farm when I was 9 years old and back then, on our farm, we did feed both grass and grain.

But today there are farms that don't use any grain. There's one not far from The Villages and the owner sells some of his products at the Wildwood market on Saturday mornings. I haven't gone to the market for several months but I'm sure he's still there. I don't use animal products anymoe but if I did, I would try some of his.

[njbchbum]

[snip]
Discuss don't argue it's a forum to exchange ideas!!!!
[snip]


it is most difficult to have a discussion when someone responds with a know-it-all or at least an i know more than you do attitude.

[Bogie Shooter]

...

Speak up, I cannot hear you.

[Villages PL]

Surely you don't mean this. How unkind. If someone gets Cancer should we in the medical field say well he didn't do everything he should have done in life so lets just toss him aside. Sometimes everything is not in our control. We are human. Not perfect. Please don't judge that obese person until you have gone through their life experience. Same for the alcholic and drug addicted. The obese are becoming the current day leper. Sad.

Now it's getting somewhat out of context. I was responding to someone who said something to the effect that "they don't care". You should go back and read it. But it's fairly obvious that they will care when they show up at the ER. Right? Therefor, the fact of them not caring about eating junk and gaining too much weight, was just short sighted. That means the person (whoever it was) who posted to tell me that they don't care, is thoughtlessly supporting shortsighted people.

Believe me, the people who say they don't care are not going to take my advice. They WILL call 911 and they WILL run up health care costs for everyone. If people don't respect themselves, how do they expect to get respect from others?

I have nothing against those who care. In high school and beyond my best friend was obese. He was a great person and very intelligent. But his obese mother spoiled him by giving him everything he wanted. He drove a new Mercedes Benz to high school. She showed him how to make milk shakes and told him he could have one anytime he wanted. By the time he realized that being obese wasn't a good thing, it was too late. He spent the rest of his life fighting his weight problem. If I had known then what I know now, I might have been able to help him lose weight and keep it off for good. But I didn't have a clue about it back then.

I felt lucky to have him as a friend. For one thing, he was a fun person to be around and had loads of good qualities. And there's one thing I'll never forget: He told me, "don't ever gain weight because once you gain it, it's very difficult to lose".

I respected him; but I don't have much respect for those who say "they don't care". Maybe what the poster really meant was "I don't care".

[manaboutown]

I found this refreshing news and related to this thread.Promoting Nutrition, Disney to Restrict Junk-Food Ads - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/promoting-nutrition-disney-restrict-junk-095403361.html)

[TOTV Team]

Reminder: Comments should never be directed at another user, please keep them directed at the topic.

Thank You

[Shimpy]

Can you please give us your opinion as to why?



.
He follows Dr Dean Ornish, Dr. Esseltyn, Dr. Colin Campbell

Google any of those names

If you wish to mitigate your risks of debilitating ailments which preclude you from enjoying the active lifestyle you desired by living here and enjoying your life in a healthy state of being at least have an open mind to understanding the benefits of vegetarian or vegan diets.

.

I agree with you 100%. Many years ago I studied Pritikin and Ornish. I myself don't give a damn what other people eat and I don't preach or even mention it. I listen to people talk about the great fried food at several restaurants, and while I'd love to eat them I don't. Go to one of the pools or even the squares and try to find a person of normal weight.

[renielarson]

[QUOTE=Villages PL;501869]"To a certain extent, people are being dumbed down by the food industry and the media..."

I agree with you Villages PL!

For those people who think they eat healthier than vegetarians and vegans, this is food for thought:

Have you heard about "chicken litter" being fed to cows and how you are ingesting it with every beef bite you take?

I don't deny I'm a beef eater although I eat it only occasionally. I wish I could stop eating it...but...I don't have the will power my vegan son has.

Nevertheless, every time I eat beef, I think about the chicken manure, chicken feathers, antibiotics, and cow parts (cyclical because of cow parts being made into chicken feed that chickens eat and then are returned to cows via chicken litter) that are now used to create feed that cows are fed. I know I'm risking mad cow disease with every bite because cow eating cow increases my risk...and yours.

My question to beef eaters...are we healthier eaters than vegans and vegetarians? To those who think so...you need to do your research.

Boy howdy!

[Villages PL]

I agree with you Villages PL!

For those people who think they eat healthier than vegetarians and vegans, this is food for thought:

Have you heard about "chicken litter" being fed to cows and how you are ingesting it with every beef bite you take?

I don't deny I'm a beef eater although I eat it only occasionally. I wish I could stop eating it...but...I don't have the will power my vegan son has.

Nevertheless, every time I eat beef, I think about the chicken manure, chicken feathers, antibiotics, and cow parts (cyclical because of cow parts being made into chicken feed that chickens eat and then are returned to cows via chicken litter) that are now used to create feed that cows are fed. I know I'm risking mad cow disease with every bite because cow eating cow increases my risk...and yours.

My question to beef eaters...are we healthier eaters than vegans and vegetarians? To those who think so...you need to do your research.

Boy howdy!


Whenever I look at large-scale population studies where they make comparisons between vegans and those who eat animal protein, the vegans always show up as being healthier. There's no question about it.

Now that I know what I know, from my extensive reading, I'm not willing to take the risk of eating animal protein. If I eat out once or twice per month, I will have a little turkey or fish but that's about it. I never bring any of that home from the supermarket. And I never bring home any processed foods either.

Thanks for your post. It serves as a good reminder of all that goes on to make meat eating all the more risky.

[lightworker888]

We do our best to eat "healthy" and the issue of cows being fed other animal products doesn't apply to all beef. If you choose your sources, you can get healthy beef, chicken and even pork - all hormone and antibiotic free and raised on a "good" diet. Some people need animal protein, particularly O blood types, but like everything else moderation is the key. Even a vegan diet needs to be researched and properly sourced to avoid toxicity.

It is refreshing to see that there are so many nutrition conscious people on the board. A few years ago the topic probably wouldn't even be discussed let alone debated, so there has been a shift in consciousness. From what I hear and see, at least the generation of young ones are getting educated on the importance of eating "healthy" and hopefully can make better choices.

I've always believed that our job as parents is to walk our talk so after doing your own research, the best thing any of us can do for ourselves and our kids is to follow a diet that we believe is the most healthful. Each person has to find that one out for him/herself and I don't believe it is necessarily a one size fits all thing. But again moderation is key. I guess I better get off the soap box.


LW888

[ariel]

I haven't eaten mammals in nearly three years. Don't really miss it much. Still eat fish, chicken/turkey. Hubby still eats meat, so preparing meals gets interesting sometimes. It would be nice to attend culinary classes that teach plant-based diet and food prep. With all the clubs in TV, are there any related to nutrition?

[Villages PL]

I haven't eaten mammals in nearly three years. Don't really miss it much. Still eat fish, chicken/turkey. Hubby still eats meat, so preparing meals gets interesting sometimes. It would be nice to attend culinary classes that teach plant-based diet and food prep. With all the clubs in TV, are there any related to nutrition?

I think there are at least two vegan clubs in The Villages. You would have to try them to see if you like them. I have never attended.

[lightworker888]

Another thought is that if you are eating anything with an attitude of fear then that will also affect your ability to assimilate it "healthfully". So it is important to choose foods that you eat to support yourself healthfully rather than choosing them because you are afraid of the consequences of not eating them. If you truly enjoy a "good" steak, then it probably would do you more good than to hate every mouthful of salad. There are so many connection within the brain that affect how we utilize our food, that it is not just a simple choice of one type of diet over another.

Emotional eating is a huge contributor to the obesity problem as are the various lobby groups advertising to the uneducated masses.
There is no simple answer but it is good that at least the questions are being asked and the situation is being studied.

It is interesting to speculate what would happen if all the major corporations and lobbyists were out of the picture and if the masses could see how they are being led. But that is a whole other discussion.

LW888

[Villages PL]

We do our best to eat "healthy" and the issue of cows being fed other animal products doesn't apply to all beef. If you choose your sources, you can get healthy beef, chicken and even pork - all hormone and antibiotic free and raised on a "good" diet. Some people need animal protein, particularly O blood types, but like everything else moderation is the key. Even a vegan diet needs to be researched and properly sourced to avoid toxicity.

It is refreshing to see that there are so many nutrition conscious people on the board. A few years ago the topic probably wouldn't even be discussed let alone debated, so there has been a shift in consciousness. From what I hear and see, at least the generation of young ones are getting educated on the importance of eating "healthy" and hopefully can make better choices.

I've always believed that our job as parents is to walk our talk so after doing your own research, the best thing any of us can do for ourselves and our kids is to follow a diet that we believe is the most healthful. Each person has to find that one out for him/herself and I don't believe it is necessarily a one size fits all thing. But again moderation is key. I guess I better get off the soap box.


LW888

Yes, you can find healthier beef. Wish I had more time to talk about it. Maybe later.

I am type O and did go back to eating meat briefly. Didn't care for it that much though. So I'm back to veganism and enjoying it very much.

[jimbo2012]

I think there are at least two vegan clubs in The Villages.

There are 3 clubs that I know of.
"Eating in the Raw" 1-3 p.m. on the second Tuesday of each month at SeaBreeze

"Achieve Better Health" meets @7 at Laurel Manor Recreation Center. Info - to johnrichards@comcast.net » or 259-0420

"Healthy Choice" This one is vegan gets about 20-30 once a month with a basic pot luck. Kea borrerokae@hotmail.com.

Maybe they should be made aware of the few threads here


.

[ilovetv]

Signs of Orthorexia

Do you suffer from Orthorexia? According to The National Eating Disorders Association, three telltale signs of a problem with Orthorexia are:

You spend an overwhelming amount of time and energy trying to eat healthfully

Eating foods other than those considered healthy and self-approved results in feelings of guilt or even self loathing

You use your dietary plan and your control over the foods you eat as a tool to avoid dealing with other issues in your life

Other warning signs of the disorder include:

No longer consuming many foods which you consider to be unhealthy

Allowing yourself to eat only a few types of foods

Seeking virtuousness from eating

Finding that the way you eat has a negative influence on the quality of your life

Experiencing some degree of social isolation due to your preoccupation with a strict healthy diet (for example, rarely being able to eat socially with people)

Judging others for the way they eat."

Orthorexia: An Unhealthy Obsession with Healthy Eating (http://www.choosehelp.com/eating-disorders/orthorexia-an-unhealthy-obsession-towards-healthy-eating)

[jimbo2012]

Some people need animal protein, particularly O blood types

Do you have more info on that?

Is it from eating for your blood type?

It was my understanding it was myth, especially since my darling wife is Type O.

But I would like to learn more about what you know on the issue.

[lightworker888]

The info that I have re Eating for your blood type is from the book as well as from other practitioners. However more recently I saw on Dr. Mercola's site (mercola.com) an article of interest that addresses this issue of diet very well. I have pasted in the link and hope you can click on it, but it may have to be cut and pasted.

Myths and Information About Vegetarianism (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/04/02/vegetarian-myths.aspx)

Dr. Mercola researches everything extensively before publishing info. I have found that information is on his site sometimes 5 years ahead of the public media (eg. Vit D necessity and deficiency implications.) His newsletter is full of very valuable information that has been well documented. He also has great video clips of talks with major contributors and researchers in all areas of health and wellness.

LW888

[renielarson]

Signs of Orthorexia

Do you suffer from Orthorexia? According to The National Eating Disorders Association, three telltale signs of a problem with Orthorexia are:

You spend an overwhelming amount of time and energy trying to eat healthfully

Eating foods other than those considered healthy and self-approved results in feelings of guilt or even self loathing

You use your dietary plan and your control over the foods you eat as a tool to avoid dealing with other issues in your life

Other warning signs of the disorder include:

No longer consuming many foods which you consider to be unhealthy

Allowing yourself to eat only a few types of foods

Seeking virtuousness from eating

Finding that the way you eat has a negative influence on the quality of your life

Experiencing some degree of social isolation due to your preoccupation with a strict healthy diet (for example, rarely being able to eat socially with people)

Judging others for the way they eat."

Orthorexia: An Unhealthy Obsession with Healthy Eating (http://www.choosehelp.com/eating-disorders/orthorexia-an-unhealthy-obsession-towards-healthy-eating)

I don't judge others for the way they eat but I do have an issue with those who say they eat healthier than vegans or vegetarians. Maybe they do, maybe they don't but it's very judgmental to actually say that when they don't know the diets of those who choose not to eat meat and/or dairy products.

[jimbo2012]

Signs of Orthorexia

First of all your in NO way referring to me, if so you are incorrect.

This response appears to be an in-artful attempt to justify an unhealthy diet.

But you are here reading the posts???

However — and it’s a big however — we’re a grossly overweight and unhealthy society with strongly developed cultural tendencies to celebrate the extremes, to submission and ourselves into premature diabetes and heart disease, to want what we want when we want it how we want it, selfish.

More important, we’re a society governed by corporations and agribusiness where we delude ourselves into believe in our individual rights and freedoms while the multinationals quietly strip us of our health and money, slipping us all manner of medical and psychiatric diagnoses with targeted pharmaceutical relief.

The goal may be for each of us to empower ourselves and take at least some control of our health back. If a person is fortunate enough to be able to do that through food choices, more power to them.


.

[jimbo2012]

The info that I have re Eating for your blood type is from the book

I thought so, I admit I did not read thru much of it, but we are speaking different schools of thought, but plant based diets have more extensive research.

I didn't read the info in your link due to the fact it is 12 years old, it was written by a Naturopathic physician I can't follow dated info with the technologies available for the current trends.

But each of us must follow what we believe is right for themselves.

----

Ok, you got my curiosity, I did a little research and found this.

Dr. Michael Klaper challenged the blood type theory, stating;

"Eat Right For Your Type 1996 by Peter J. D'Adamo, N. D. The book's basic premise - that Type O's are the dominant, hunter-caveman type that require meat in the diet.
Yet, no such studies are cited or presented.

In my opinion, D'Adamo has spun an evolutionary fairy tale that leaves many unanswered questions. What exactly is he proposing happened to Type O hunter-gatherers"

Full article (http://www.vegsource.com/news/2008/11/challenges-to-the-blood-type-diet.html)


Joel Fuhrman MD answered this question nicely in his book "Eat To Live." Statistically, blood type has no impact on dietary choices. EVERYONE should eat a HEALTHY vegan diet! ...he has done extensive research into the scientific literature on the connection between blood type and diet and there is very little scientific validity to these claims.

D'Adamo does not supply scientific references to back up any of his claims, Dr. Fuhrman searched Medline for all articles on blood type and diet done in the past 30 years, as well as research on lectins and he read more than 200 scientific articles on the subject of ABO blood types, diet and disease. D'Adamo's book mixes some interesting factual information with a lot of far-fetched assertions that have no scientific basis in fact. He makes many unscientific and incorrect claims that show a poor understanding of basic human physiology.


.

[lightworker888]

Don't get me wrong, Jm. I am not saying that it wouldn't be useful to have a more plant based diet than a meat based diet, but I do believe that some animal protein is also useful. As always moderation and source is the key as well as emotional attitude towards eating whatever you eat. We are fortunate to have access to good sources of both veggies and meat, fish and chicken but it needs to be sourced out. I found that free range chicken was harder to find near TV. Would appreciate any info on that.

I found this link to a more current article that I thought put things in balance, which is really what I am discussing. I believe that everything is all about balance and that it is up to the individual to find that balance for himself.

Red meat is good for you! After all the warnings, Sunday roast not linked to heart disease | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358523/Red-meat-good-After-warnings-Sunday-roast-linked-heart-disease.html)

LW888

[lightworker888]

Actually we have found that eliminating gluten and sugar and doing our best to food combine has had more impact positively on our health than doing plant based, raw or macrobiotic exclusively. We also use Redmond Sea Salt exclusively and cook with coconut oil only and use olive oil for salads and mixing with butter. (1 lb butter to 1C olive oil and 1C water).

But back to the topic of dumbing down, that is really a major concern for us all and I believe it is the major contributor to the obesity issue. The only one looking after us is ourselves and we need to really understand that all the influences around us really put us into a trance and we get blindly led without noticing where we are going.


Of interest might be the following link which gave us much to consider. We found it to be an interesting concept. Like all things, it really depends on what your mind is sorting for as "everything" is out there and it is up to each of us to determine what to attend to with each 7-9 bits of info we take in. I think this really addresses the dumbing down topic and as always knowledge is power so we can never have too much info.


The Story of Your Enslavement - YouTube

[jimbo2012]

Don't get me wrong, Jm. I am not saying that it wouldn't be useful to have a more plant based diet than a meat based diet, but I do believe that some animal protein is also useful. As always moderation and source is the key as well as emotional attitude towards eating whatever you eat. We are fortunate to have access to good sources of both veggies and meat, fish and chicken but it needs to be sourced out. I found that free range chicken was harder to find near TV. Would appreciate any info on that.

It's not what's it's cracked up to be
Unlike the term "USDA Organic," which can only be applied to foods that meet exacting guidelines set by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), the use of the term "free-range" is less strict. Any chickens that have regular access to an outdoor area -- a patch of cement or a small, fenced gravel yard -- can be called free-range. Even if a bird gets just five minutes of outdoor time a day, she qualifies as a free-range chicken.
There's conflicting information about how rigorously the USDA inspects free-range chickens and turkeys. The USDA website states that in order for poultry to be labeled free-range or free-roaming, "Producers must demonstrate to the Agency that the poultry has been allowed access to the outside." That's it. How often, and how strictly, the USDA inspects chickens' outdoor access is anyone's guess.

I found this link to a more current article that I thought put things in balance, which is really what I am discussing. I believe that everything is all about balance and that it is up to the individual to find that balance for himself.

Red meat is good for you! After all the warnings, Sunday roast not linked to heart disease | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358523/Red-meat-good-After-warnings-Sunday-roast-linked-heart-disease.html)

To quote that very article "Professor Martin Wiseman, medical and scientific adviser for World Cancer Research Fund, said the study was being promoted by the meat industry, but added: ‘This paper is not a systematic review of the evidence and does not change the fact that there is convincing evidence that red and processed meat increase risk of bowel cancer.
But to suggest, as the authors of this review have done, that there is “no evidence” that a moderate intake of lean red meat has any negative health effects is wrong.‘Essentially, the public has a choice between believing our findings – which are those of an independent panel of scientists after a systematic and transparent review of the complete global evidence – or the conclusions of this review.’

If that's solid evidence for you to rely upon fine. But without quoting numerous studies showing otherwise the balance you're referring to is not in red meat or poultry, fish maybe.

The fact that your interested in diet is great, would you be willing to get a dvd on Netflix or amazon that can explain this way better than I?

The #1 ranked video Forks over Knives.

[graciegirl]

Here is a question for Jimbo and VillagesFl. Have the people closest to you, your immediate family; children, parents, siblings, changed to your way of eating?

[lightworker888]

I just got this message and thought it was worth sharing for those of you who might be interested.

"Law of Attraction is Universal, and every person is affected by it. And it is always true that what I think and what I feel and what I get are always a match, and there is not a person on the planet that did not know that when they were born, and there is not a person on the planet that would not benefit by knowing it. But many, many, many are not yet asking and therefore are not yet ready for the answer. And so, we would say that — although everyone wants this information — everyone is not necessarily ready for it. We would not spend any time trying to convince anybody of anything because if they're not asking, your answers are just irritating." - Abraham-Hicks

There are so many readers on the board and at different points on their journey that I think this is really relevant. There is no point that is any better than any other; it really is a matter of what attracts you at the moment, for that is where each person is and no one gets pushed from one point to another; they choose to move when they are ready and feel the need. Living transparently and modelling what we believe, is really all we need to do and those that are attracted to the ideas will ask the questions and hopefully attend to the answers, and maybe even follow the suggestions.

LW888

[jimbo2012]

Gracie,
Not the gran kids, 2 of my 3 kids have, the other one is thinking hard about it because his wife is doing it.
When they saw I was no longer on any meds (my wife was never on any) and lost some weight they got interested.
They all watched the video Forks over knives and that convinced them.

We also have more energy than before, I can play 2 rounds of golf walking, and go out the same nite not feeling tired.

Of course it's easier if both spouses are doing the same food.

[senior citizen]

Here is a question for Jimbo and VillagesFl. Have the people closest to you, your immediate family; children, parents, siblings, changed to your way of eating?


I've read all of the books and understand the concept he's referring to, however, I understand totally where you are coming from, Gracie. Our generation (yours and mine) has had to adjust our cooking and baking habits that we learned as young marrieds in the 1960's.......however, it still is nice to be able to "throw caution to the winds" and make someone their favorite meal every now and then without being a SPARTAN.

I have inlaws that live on seeds and nuts and have terrible dispositions.
They are no healthier than we are....in fact, they've had more surgical procedures than we will ever have, and so far, we've had none. They also pop bags of supplements like they are going out of style.

I have other family members who claim to be lactose intolerant which eliminates a lot of old favorites that have cheese in them, dairy and milk.

I have others that avoid the nightshade family of veggies.......and on and on..........and grandchildren who prefer Macdonalds and pizza to meatloaf and mashed potatoes....a true comfort meal.

I also have other children who eat healthy of everything offered, but in moderation. Moderation is the key, as another poster said.

I was raised on all the Italian veggies like escarole, kale, broccoli, you name it......if it was green it was on the table and it didn't come out of a can.........ditto for legumes.....LENTILS, BEANS.....dry ones that they had to soak.......I still say that is why that generation lived so long......there was no processed food back then...........however, NOW everything is processed.

The Mediterranean Diet is a very healthy one, with meat in moderation.

However, if you offered the average person a bowl of lentil soup with escarole or spinach floating around in it.......or beans and macaroni, ditto, they would turn up their noses........and prefer something from a chain restaurant (who all get their processed foods from a place like Sysco).

My mom cooked both my dad's Italian and her own Slavic type dishes of her mom........and that was heavy on cabbage....so still healthy and they didn't even know it. Lots of root veggies......very little meat....HONEY in place of sugar. It was more that there were "no extras". Lots of home made soups. Now, even our favorite childhood comfort food of hand rolled out pierogie / varenky slathered in sauteed onions and sour cream would be a NO NO.

Also, cooking for two is not as much fun as cooking for a large family; there are too many leftovers to contend with.

I've also had people hand us what they perceived to be a "healthy" substitute for a hot dog on the grill, or a slice of cheese.......and think just because it says low fat or no sugar, etc. that it's o.k. The substitutes can be worse than the actual ingredient they try to avoid.

We've cut way back on our red meat consumption.......but we still remember those big roasts our moms made........you cant even get a "fresh ham" (not the pink kind) like they had back then. As far as the pink ham, she'd cut crosses in it and put cloves all over it and then garnished with pineapple. Who does that anymore???????????

ALL THE JOY HAS GONE OUT OF COOKING.

[ariel]

Here is a question for Jimbo and VillagesFl. Have the people closest to you, your immediate family; children, parents, siblings, changed to your way of eating?


Good Question. I can tell you about me...having been exposed to the eating/food perspectives of a couple of my relatives has made me more conscious of how and what I eat. It's made me read more (food containers and articles) and I have altered my habits over the past 3-5 years. I will likely never alter to the extent that they have but listening to them talk (yes...sometimes preach) has opened my eyes to some things I'd never previously thought too much about.

I think Quirky makes a great point about making sure we receive the message. There's so much being written and talked about regarding nutrition these days, it's confusing and hard to figure out. So these conversations give good "food" for thought and also some good starting points/search terms to study a little further.

Making changes in the way I eat has been hard for me - I grew up in a southern family that everything we did at home, church, etc. revolved around the table and taste was everything. I'm sure much of my grandmothers' and even my mother's self concepts were tied to the fact they were such good cooks. Those generations, in my part of the coutry, raised a lot of meat and potatoes people. Unfortunately, some of them suffered from ailments that were probably impacted by diet.

As for me...as I said before, I'm a work in progress...in so many ways. :)

[senior citizen]

We do our best to eat "healthy" and the issue of cows being fed other animal products doesn't apply to all beef. If you choose your sources, you can get healthy beef, chicken and even pork - all hormone and antibiotic free and raised on a "good" diet. Some people need animal protein, particularly O blood types, but like everything else moderation is the key. Even a vegan diet needs to be researched and properly sourced to avoid toxicity.

It is refreshing to see that there are so many nutrition conscious people on the board. A few years ago the topic probably wouldn't even be discussed let alone debated, so there has been a shift in consciousness. From what I hear and see, at least the generation of young ones are getting educated on the importance of eating "healthy" and hopefully can make better choices.

I've always believed that our job as parents is to walk our talk so after doing your own research, the best thing any of us can do for ourselves and our kids is to follow a diet that we believe is the most healthful. Each person has to find that one out for him/herself and I don't believe it is necessarily a one size fits all thing. But again moderation is key. I guess I better get off the soap box.


LW888

Your posting is spot on and accurate..........however, our generation cooked like Betty Crocker and Suzy Homemaker.........our now adult children, once in college, began to make their own food decisions and truly do know what is right for optimal health; they are all thin and healthy and active.

However, it's the younger generation that doesn't seem to "try" new foods.........whereas when my kids were young and school age, at home, they ate everything........all types of American foods and ethnic foods.........they weren't fussy at all. The really young school age generation of today truly prefer Macdonalds and pizza....even though their parents cook healthy. Some schools actually offer it in the cafeterias.

Our very young ones, and those grandchldren of my friends, seem to prefer to "live on" fruits, cut up crudites and ranch dressing.......no meat.
So, self directed vegans? They do eat cheese and do drink milk. Our kids ate everything, whether it was at home (3 meals a day when school was not in session) or on vacation. From little tykes on. They were not fussy. Times have changed. I always cooked a variety of everything.
THEY ALL REMAINED THIN. Food was not an issue, even though we had an abundance of it.

I've tried to get that free range chicken, etc. but it's super expensive.
Not happy about the hormones and antibiotics in the meat supply.

All interesting postings, for sure.

[senior citizen]

First of all your in NO way referring to me, if so you are incorrect.

This response appears to be an in-artful attempt to justify an unhealthy diet.

But you are here reading the posts???

However — and it’s a big however — we’re a grossly overweight and unhealthy society with strongly developed cultural tendencies to celebrate the extremes, to submission and ourselves into premature diabetes and heart disease, to want what we want when we want it how we want it, selfish.

More important, we’re a society governed by corporations and agribusiness where we delude ourselves into believe in our individual rights and freedoms while the multinationals quietly strip us of our health and money, slipping us all manner of medical and psychiatric diagnoses with targeted pharmaceutical relief.

The goal may be for each of us to empower ourselves and take at least some control of our health back. If a person is fortunate enough to be able to do that through food choices, more power to them.


.

Here's an interesting little story about big business and agribusiness as you mention.

About 3 years ago, I had a bottle of apple juice in the frig after the grandchildren left........I usually bought MOTTS but Price Chopper was all out of it, so I purchased the Price Chopper brand of apple juice. The little ones went through a few bottles of it during the visit.....this was the last bottle put in and only half used up.

I decided to have a drink. I wish I still had the photos but I've had a computer crash since then.......lost them. There was a HUGE CIRCULAR BLACK, GREY AND WHITE object in the middle of the Price Chopper apple juice....in the bottle. It was disgusting.

This had not been in there for a long time or left out at all.

To make a very long story short..........I began to do some research after calling Price Chopper and sending them the photos my husband later took of the MOLD or whatever it was in the apple juice bottle. It was huge.

They said that their apples come from droppings in CHINA....as it is more cost effective for them.............I had asked "Why don't you get them from New York State or neighboring Vermont" since Price Chopper's headquarters is in upstate N.Y.

Just last night on the news, they said that New York farmers have not bounced back since our sub tropical storm Irene of last year.....they kept showing the apple crops, etc. Go figure. Apples from China?????

I had done research and found out that the certain bacteria that grows on apple juice, apple cider, apple butter, etc.........is caused by a certain organism.........and usually comes from the droppings.

We know all about the baby formula, and other products that were questionable..............but who would think to suspect apple juice.
Which little kids live on. To this day, I can't get myself to drink it.

[senior citizen]

I just got this message and thought it was worth sharing for those of you who might be interested.

"Law of Attraction is Universal, and every person is affected by it. And it is always true that what I think and what I feel and what I get are always a match, and there is not a person on the planet that did not know that when they were born, and there is not a person on the planet that would not benefit by knowing it. But many, many, many are not yet asking and therefore are not yet ready for the answer. And so, we would say that — although everyone wants this information — everyone is not necessarily ready for it. We would not spend any time trying to convince anybody of anything because if they're not asking, your answers are just irritating." - Abraham-Hicks

There are so many readers on the board and at different points on their journey that I think this is really relevant. There is no point that is any better than any other; it really is a matter of what attracts you at the moment, for that is where each person is and no one gets pushed from one point to another; they choose to move when they are ready and feel the need. Living transparently and modelling what we believe, is really all we need to do and those that are attracted to the ideas will ask the questions and hopefully attend to the answers, and maybe even follow the suggestions.

LW888


Words of wisdom. We've all been there. Life is not stagnant.
We are always learning. However, often it is the other person in our lives who we need to "tend to" who prefers his food "the old way".

To find a kindred spirit is a rare thing.

Also, people who live alone can eat what ever they please.

[Villages PL]

Don't get me wrong, Jm. I am not saying that it wouldn't be useful to have a more plant based diet than a meat based diet, but I do believe that some animal protein is also useful. As always moderation and source is the key as well as emotional attitude towards eating whatever you eat. We are fortunate to have access to good sources of both veggies and meat, fish and chicken but it needs to be sourced out. I found that free range chicken was harder to find near TV. Would appreciate any info on that.

I found this link to a more current article that I thought put things in balance, which is really what I am discussing. I believe that everything is all about balance and that it is up to the individual to find that balance for himself.

Red meat is good for you! After all the warnings, Sunday roast not linked to heart disease | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358523/Red-meat-good-After-warnings-Sunday-roast-linked-heart-disease.html)

LW888

I read your link and the last sentence said the review was published with funding from the food industry. So it's not unbiased. We already know that the food industry is not adverse to employing doctors who will say whatever they want them to say. I feel it's a waste of our time to have to read faulty (biased) studies. It represents more dumbing down, in my opinion.

[Villages PL]

To find a kindred spirit is a rare thing.

You can say that again.

Also, people who live alone can eat what ever they please.

I admit to having a big advantage in that regard. If I ever get married, (which I kind of doubt because I cherish my solitude) there will have to be two refrigerators (his and hers). (I don't want any dumbing down in the place where I live.) :-)

:wave:

[lightworker888]

When we talk about unbiased, I question whether any study is every truly unbiased. We can't even get truly unbiased double bind studies as each person has a unique constitution and history and emotional make up, so you can't even really get a "pure" group. So it really boils down to each person having to make choices that resonate best at the time and then living with the consequence of those choices whatever they be.

Personally I choose what "feels" right at the moment and I know that 100% allegiance to one focus or another is really "out of balance" in the real world, as it becomes so much a part of our personal "story" and who wants to always focus on and reiterate their story when there are so many other interesting things to occupy our attention.

That being said, I do believe that in our western diet, more attention to veggies is important, and even more important is the quality of the soil in which the veggies are grown. There are so many factors that are part of this discussion that it can be overwhelming so I guess like all things you do what you can when you can and decide for yourself what feels right for you.

Dr. Bruce Lipton talks about the Biology of Beliefs (you can see it on You tube) and that really shows how important your beliefs (both conscious and unconscious) in relation to your health and the ability of your body to keep you healthy. It is often difficult for us to discern our beliefs and those that we have inherited over our lifetime. Some of them are still useful and some are really of no use to us now as we have moved beyond their usefulness. This all affects the choices we make and the conclusions we draw. Too much to think about, so I think I will go and play my ukelele!


LW888

[Villages PL]

When we talk about unbiased, I question whether any study is every truly unbiased. We can't even get truly unbiased double bind studies as each person has a unique constitution and history and emotional make up, so you can't even really get a "pure" group.

I think that's why there's supposed to be a certain process to follow. First there's usually a small clinical study of about 17 or 18 people. If it shows some benefit for the active agent (whatever it may be), then they proceed to do a medium size clinical study. If that also shows some benefit, they go to a large size clinical study. And if that shows some benefit, they usually will go to a much larger study which may include many hundreds of people.

I wouldn't worry about double blind though. I think, if I'm not mistaken, double blind is mostly for testing drugs, vitamins and soforth.

I believe the study they use for diet is called observational and there have been some very good ones. I believe The China Study is one of the few really good ones. Try reading it sometime; there's a whole chapter where the author discusses the science behind the study (how and why it was designed the way it was designed).

The study was government funded so the author was not biased by having products to sell. He wrote the book at the end of his career to let the taxpayers know what they got for their money.

No dumbing down here.

P.S. I have Bruce Lipton's book, "The Biology of Belief". And I have a couple of books by D' Adamo.

[Villages PL]

Here is a question for Jimbo and VillagesFl. Have the people closest to you, your immediate family; children, parents, siblings, changed to your way of eating?

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books :thumbup:) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is just another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient. And there's a heart doctor with a weekly radio program who basically does the same.

[ilovetv]

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books :thumbup:) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient.

We are all extremely glad your in-law survived and got better.

HOWEVER....You are not a medical doctor and therefore should not be dispensing advice like that here. I hope people here are wise enough to not go against medical advice, especially when that clogged artery(ies) could have killed the man the next day!

[Villages PL]

We are all extremely glad your in-law survived and got better.

HOWEVER....You are not a medical doctor and therefore should not be dispensing advice like that here. I hope people here are wise enough to not go against medical advice, especially when that clogged artery(ies) could have killed the man the next day!

"Dumbed down" is the operative phrase, so I'm not at all surprised by your reply.

[jimbo2012]

HOWEVER....You are not a medical doctor and therefore should not be dispensing advice like that here. I hope people here are wise enough to not go against medical advice, especially when that clogged artery(ies) could have killed the man the next day!

This man is a medical doctor that has gone against standard medical advice and has the clinical trials and patients that opted out of surgery.

But understand surgery is required in certain cases.

If you watch the short video (http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/19/heart.attack.proof.diet/index.html) it's pretty interesting.

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. didn't become a doctor to change the way America eats. He was a general surgeon.

But researching cancer, he stumbled on a fact that changed his career: Certain cultures around the world do not suffer from heart disease, the No. 1 killer in the Western world.

Esselstyn's practice took a dramatic turn -- from performing surgery to promoting nutrition. For more than 20 years, the Cleveland Clinic doctor has tried to get Americans to eat like the Papua New Guinea highlanders, rural Chinese, central Africans and the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico.

Follow his dietary prescription, the 77-year-old Esselstyn says, and you will be "heart attack proof" -- regardless of your family history.

"It's a foodborne illness, and we're never going to end the epidemic with stents, with bypasses, with the drugs, because none of it is treating causation of the illness," Esselstyn says.

The Esselstyn diet is tough for most Americans to swallow: no meat, no eggs, no dairy, no added oils. :highfive:

"We've eaten ourselves into a problem, and we can eat ourselves out of it," Mason says. But Esselstyn's prescription goes against conventional wisdom, which considers diet only one factor in preventing heart disease.

Other key factors include physical activity, cholesterol, blood pressure and weight, she says. The meat, dairy and egg industries defend the benefits of their protein-rich foods, all of which remain on the U.S. Department of Agriculture's MyPlate dietary guidelines for healthy eating.

Esselstyn's plant-based prescription also runs up against a culture where meat is served at most meals.

"Most doctors eat meat because most Americans eat meat, and if they don't really see for themselves or for their family why it might be a good idea to cut down or even cut meat out of their diet altogether, they might not be so inclined to recommend it to their patients," says Michele Simon, author of "Appetite for Profit."

Even doctors who see the benefits of Esselstyn's diet may not prescribe it for their patients.

"Anyone who is able to do that diet can have dramatic success. The problem is that many people are unable or unwilling to make these changes so in my practice, I try to take baby steps -- one step at a time," says Dr. Erin Michos, a cardiologist at the Ciccarone Center for the Prevention of Heart Disease at Johns Hopkins University.

Esselstyn diet worked for me: One patient's story

To help heart patients and others make the leap to his diet, Esselstyn holds a monthly, five-hour seminar at the Cleveland Clinic Wellness Institute to explain the science behind "plant-based" nutrition.

Esselstyn's wife, Ann, offers practical advice on how to prepare kale, bok choy, collard greens and other foods that may not be on the typical family's shopping list.
Esselstyn began recruiting patients in 1985 and says his diet has worked even on people deemed too sick for surgery. Esselstyn has published results from a small group of patients showing how his diet either halted the progression of heart disease or reduced the blockages in the blood vessels leading to the heart.

"We know if people are eating this way they are not going to have a heart attack," says Esselstyn, whose father had a heart attack at 43.

Anthony Yen, an entrepreneur who emigrated from China and came to love the fried foods, meat and desserts of the American diet, adopted the Esselstyn program in 1987 after undergoing bypass surgery.

"I'm still alive because of this diet," Yen says, now 78.

Esselstyn says people shouldn't hold off on starting his diet until after they develop symptoms of heart disease because most heart attacks strike with no warning.

"The reason you don't wait until you have heart disease to eat this way is often, sadly, the first symptom of your heart disease may be your sudden death," he says.

Esselstyn says his diet works because it keeps the lining of the blood vessels free of the dangerous blisters or bubbles or cholesterol-laden plaque that causes heart attacks.

Two decades after Esselstyn started trying to spread the info of his plant-based diet, the American Heart Association says 83 million Americans have some form of cardiovascular disease and many of the traditional risk factors for heart disease, such as obesity, are at all time highs. The association says the cost of treating heart disease tops $270 billion and is expected to more than double by 2025.

"We are on the cusp of what could be an absolute revolution in health -- not dependent on pills, procedures or operations, but on lifestyle," Esselstyn says.

[Villages PL]

Here's an interesting little story about big business and agribusiness as you mention.

About 3 years ago, I had a bottle of apple juice in the frig after the grandchildren left........I usually bought MOTTS but Price Chopper was all out of it, so I purchased the Price Chopper brand of apple juice. The little ones went through a few bottles of it during the visit.....this was the last bottle put in and only half used up.

I decided to have a drink. I wish I still had the photos but I've had a computer crash since then.......lost them. There was a HUGE CIRCULAR BLACK, GREY AND WHITE object in the middle of the Price Chopper apple juice....in the bottle. It was disgusting.

This had not been in there for a long time or left out at all.


To make a very long story short..........I began to do some research after calling Price Chopper and sending them the photos my husband later took of the MOLD or whatever it was in the apple juice bottle. It was huge.

They said that their apples come from droppings in CHINA....as it is more cost effective for them.............I had asked "Why don't you get them from New York State or neighboring Vermont" since Price Chopper's headquarters is in upstate N.Y.

Just last night on the news, they said that New York farmers have not bounced back since our sub tropical storm Irene of last year.....they kept showing the apple crops, etc. Go figure. Apples from China?????

I had done research and found out that the certain bacteria that grows on apple juice, apple cider, apple butter, etc.........is caused by a certain organism.........and usually comes from the droppings.

We know all about the baby formula, and other products that were questionable..............but who would think to suspect apple juice.
Which little kids live on. To this day, I can't get myself to drink it.

In my opinion, the true lesson to be learned here is: Never drink ANY fruit juice. It's a poor choice to begin with. As far as health goes, nothing beats eating a whole apple, orange or grapefruit etc.. In order to make juice, they remove the fiber. In doing so, the sugar content becomes more concentrated. And, without the fiber, the sugar will enter your blood stream much faster, thereby raising your blood sugar too fast. Drinking juice is one of the most unhealthy habits going.

[graciegirl]

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books :thumbup:) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is just another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient. And there's a heart doctor with a weekly radio program who basically does the same.

I feel in my heart you mean well, but this kind of anecdotal information is not only terribly misleading but dangerous. You would never want to be the cause of someone's harming himself by accepting this story at face value, I just know you would not. We must be so careful in our giving advice like this. There are all kinds of degrees to everything. A cardiologist and only a cardiologist could make that call.

[lightworker888]

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/31/coconut-oil-for-healthy-heart.aspx


LW888

[skyc6]

In this day and age, I don't feel that a government funded study can be said to be "unbiased!"
Everyone needs to be responsible for their own health knowledge, if they can.
Villages PL--your delivery implies that you don't think anyone knows anything but you and it is your job to inform everyone how to live their life. It is one thing to have a message, but if you can't give a kind, compassionate delivery of said message, it becomes a moot point.

[senior citizen]

In my opinion, the true lesson to be learned here is: Never drink ANY fruit juice. It's a poor choice to begin with. As far as health goes, nothing beats eating a whole apple, orange or grapefruit etc.. In order to make juice, they remove the fiber. In doing so, the sugar content becomes more concentrated. And, without the fiber, the sugar will enter your blood stream much faster, thereby raising your blood sugar to fast. Drinking juice is one of the most unhealthy habits going.

The grandchildren did indeed , and still do, eat whole fruit as you mention. All varieties of fruit, plus raw veggies. They are always chomping on an apple, pear or grapes. Oranges too. Melons in season. Ditto for carrots, cucumbers, etc. and even raw broccoli.
Vermont is an apple producing state.

However, they also drank milk and apple juice and water. NO SODA.
Apple juice always was the beverage of choice for toddlers. I have read the pros and the cons on the subject....but that's what they drank so that is what I purchased to keep in the frig when they arrived to visit.

They all were breast fed as well....and delivered by midwives. The parents are well aware of healthy food choices......but little ones in school and at their friends' homes do drink apple juice.

I was just grossed out by HOW FAST that circular multi colored mold pattern developed......that's when I did my research on the particular organism that grows in apple products........and was shocked that apple juice is made from the droppings........or at least that brand was.

One cautionary tale about Price Chopper also........we just returned from shopping.......it's quite humid out as it is each morning, but not a high temperature.......but muggy in the store........it appears to be that they turn down the refrigeration in the cases and freezers, and produce displays, etc.......OVERNIGHT........if you go early as we did, and other people also were commenting..........everything is warm to the touch or melting..........then the store must turn it back on again later morning.
Sales staff said this is cost cutting measures. I would think it would allow many unhealthy organisms to grow.

All food is suspect nowadays, even healthy veggies.

I used to love cantalupes.......until a few years ago when I read about the salmonella passed down into the fruit via the cutting knife.......ditto for watermelon. So, how can any of us be sure our HEALTHY FOOD is safe to consume?

I never buy anything that is "low fat" or "artificial sweetener" as all of that aspartame, etc. is not healthy either.

Moderation is the key in all things in life......not to be a fanatic or spartan about anything. Even organic produce can be suspect.

[jimbo2012]

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you. LW888
Does his research include any clinical trials or data of his own or is it simply selected articles from his reading :read:

So he says in that story fat is needed in a diet, who said it's not?

Are you saying a person can't Get Enough Fat Eating a Plant-based Diet?

Fat is present in all fruits, vegetables, and other plant foods.
Strawberries are 5 percent fat; bell peppers, 6 percent; broccoli, 8 percent; spinach, 11 percent; and soybeans, 41 percent. Several high-fat plant foods contain in excess of 80 percent fat, including certain nuts and seeds, as well as avocados, olives, and coconuts. By eating a delicious, plant-happy diet, you will consume roughly 9 to 15 percent of your total calories from fat, which is ideal.

Getting your fat from plant-based foods means you will be consuming healthy monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats as opposed to dangerous saturated fats. You will be able to eat more food than you ever dreamed of without gaining weight and feel wonderful!


Just a side note for you fight fans, Tim Bradly v Manny Pacquiao last night was won by a vegan! :boxing2::boxing2:

[jimbo2012]

I feel in my heart you mean well, but this kind of anecdotal information is not only terribly misleading but dangerous. You would never want to be the cause of someone's harming himself by accepting this story at face value, I just know you would not. We must be so careful in our giving advice like this. There are all kinds of degrees to everything. A cardiologist and only a cardiologist could make that call.

Gracie, do you really think anyone would do that without consulting a Dr.?

A stent can put the fire out and saves lives that's a fact, but what Dr, Esseltyn, Campbel and Orish are advocating is the long term cure is a plant based diet. Now you need not take to level I take it but if you did eliminate certain foods there would be an improvement.

The goal in heart & stroke related illness is for the most part a reduction of plaque in the circulatory system.

This can be clearly achieved thru diet.

Two months ago a good friend of mine who was somewhat interested in trying it due his blood results at the same his dr recommended the popular statin drug Crestor wanting his cholesterol reading reduced.
They did drop to about 105 but shortly after that blood test he noticed bone & joint pain then he had a few beers and got a severe gout attack.
Went to all the doctors they found nothing.

He & I Googled Gout +crestor, wow it is known side effect along with bone pain.
He dropped the drug under his doctors care, pain is almost gone he tried having a beer no pain in big toe (gout), I told him more independent testing is required on how many beers he can have, he is researching happy hour locations :highfive:

Drugs v diet????

No please don't go off on me, certain drugs are a necessity.

We did this under close supervision by our local Doctors, including blood work more often and I followed my BP at home on a CVS unit that could download Excel spreadsheets to my Dr. I also consulted with Dr. Esselsyn directly over the phone 3 times in the past year.

I'm only leading you to info, it's your choice. :mmmm:

[bluedog103]

In this day and age, I don't feel that a government funded study can be said to be "unbiased!"
Everyone needs to be responsible for their own health knowledge, if they can.
Villages PL--your delivery implies that you don't think anyone knows anything but you and it is your job to inform everyone how to live their life. It is one thing to have a message, but if you can't give a kind, compassionate delivery of said message, it becomes a moot point.
The ignore list works wonders in eliminating irritating posts and posters. Mine isn't long, only 3-4 names but it's very effective.

[donkobes]

Hunt down a copy of Ben Goldacre's book, "Bad Science". It's available in hard copy, ebook and audiobook.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Science_(book)

His approach is real and demands research to back up any nutritional claims made.

Don Kobes

[KayakerNC]

:BigApplause:
The ignore list works wonders in eliminating irritating posts and posters. Mine isn't long, only 3-4 names but it's very effective.

:agree:
Call me skeptical, but I'd rather trust my MD then some anonymous poster proselytizing their belief systems.

[ilovetv]

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books :thumbup:) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is just another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient. And there's a heart doctor with a weekly radio program who basically does the same.

Call me skeptical, but I'd rather trust my MD then some anonymous poster proselytizing their belief systems......

.......and calling MD's advice to have surgery for an acute need/blockage "dumbing down the patient". Duhhhhh.....

If the patient has a fatal heart attack while reading Page One of the (valid) dietary book, the (valid) diet sure ain't gonna do him much good!!!!!

[jimbo2012]

His approach is real and demands research to back up any nutritional claims made.

Agree, here's 30 year of it.

The China Study - YouTube

The China Study is a book :read: by Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son, Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products and illnesses such as cancers of the breast, prostate, and bowel, diabetes, coronary heart disease, obesity, autoimmune disease, osteoporosis, degenerative brain disease, and macular degeneration. The book had sold 500,000 copies as of January 2011, making it one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.


But you with along with your doctors consult should decide.

I'm only exchanging ideas, I was surprised that in 4 days there are 2500 page views, so there is an interest at TV.

[jimbo2012]

.....If the patient has a fatal heart attack while reading Page One of the (valid) dietary book, the (valid) diet sure ain't gonna do him much good!!!!![

Foe sure, but what if that patient read it 6 months earlier?

You know I read someplace that doctors that are eating vegan style stopped telling most of their patients about it because they just won't try to change they way they eat, drugs are easy.

You may wish to think about reading some of current thinking on the subject and make an informed decision.

No one can show any evidence that it has a negative effect on your health.

[ariel]

[QUOTE=jimbo2012;504071]Gracie, do you really think anyone would do that without consulting a Dr.?

Unfortunately, yes. Having been in health care for 40 years I've seen too many times "desperation" move people in a dangerous direction - people buy medications off the internet, go to other countries for unproven/untested treatment and fear of a surgery could make someone postpone it in hopes of another course of action working for them.

Hopefully, the individual in question was being monitored closely by his MD during his dietary approach to ensure the 80% blockage didn't progress to 100%. Research in diet and nutrition is bringing us good information that we should pay attention to; but let's not dismiss the life-saving treatments - drugs and procedures - that have also been the result of research and proven to save lives and improve quality of life.

[Villages PL]

I feel in my heart you mean well, but this kind of anecdotal information is not only terribly misleading but dangerous.

Excuse me, but I thought you were asking for something anecdotal. Were you asking for a clinical study?

You would never want to be the cause of someone's harming himself by accepting this story at face value, I just know you would not. We must be so careful in our giving advice like this.

This wasn't advice. This was a story about someone who decided, on his own, to try reversing his clogged arteries by employing dietary measures.


There are all kinds of degrees to everything.

Really?


A cardiologist and only a cardiologist could make that call.

I disagree. Evidently, my relative made the call. And the outcome was successful. Whether he talked it over with his doctor first is his business.

[Villages PL]

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you.

Over Half of Your Diet Should Consist of Saturated Fats (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/31/coconut-oil-for-healthy-heart.aspx)


LW888


I went to his website about 9 or 10 years ago and was turned off by all the products he was selling. He's running a business and I always wonder what comes first, the health of his business or the health of his customers. If there's ever a conflict between science and business, which side will he come down on? I don't want to read his advice and always have to wonder where his allegiance is.

[lightworker888]

I've been reading him for that long too and I still find his research and ideas valid. I used to be upset about the products, but I realize that they help fund his site and I have found them of good quality, so now I just accept that they go with the territory, but I can still get the info without feeling pushed to buy the product. I still like his Vit D spray and generally use it, and his video clips are usually well ahead of the general media so I like that. He also will update if there is new or different information. I think the only thing that I don't agree with is his stand on RO. We used it for years and then discovered that it really affected our PH so we use more alkaline water now and watch our PH. The veggie broth helps that of course! But I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath and moderation is really my guide when I read Mercola or anyone else.

LW888

[Villages PL]

In this day and age, I don't feel that a government funded study can be said to be "unbiased!"

I guess that means that you won't waste your time reading, "The China Study" because your mind is already made up. You lke the study funded by the food industry.

Villages PL--your delivery implies that you don't think anyone knows anything but you and it is your job to inform everyone how to live their life.

My delivery implies what?

It is one thing to have a message, but if you can't give a kind, compassionate delivery of said message, it becomes a moot point.

I believe a kind, compassionate delivery is one that tells it like it is rather than having someone think that science doesn't matter. You don't appear to have much respect for science.

[Villages PL]

The grandchildren did indeed , and still do, eat whole fruit as you mention. All varieties of fruit, plus raw veggies. They are always chomping on an apple, pear or grapes. Oranges too. Melons in season. Ditto for carrots, cucumbers, etc. and even raw broccoli.
Vermont is an apple producing state.

However, they also drank milk and apple juice and water. NO SODA.
Apple juice always was the beverage of choice for toddlers. I have read the pros and the cons on the subject....but that's what they drank so that is what I purchased to keep in the frig when they arrived to visit.

They all were breast fed as well....and delivered by midwives. The parents are well aware of healthy food choices......but little ones in school and at their friends' homes do drink apple juice.

I was just grossed out by HOW FAST that circular multi colored mold pattern developed......that's when I did my research on the particular organism that grows in apple products........and was shocked that apple juice is made from the droppings........or at least that brand was.

One cautionary tale about Price Chopper also........we just returned from shopping.......it's quite humid out as it is each morning, but not a high temperature.......but muggy in the store........it appears to be that they turn down the refrigeration in the cases and freezers, and produce displays, etc.......OVERNIGHT........if you go early as we did, and other people also were commenting..........everything is warm to the touch or melting..........then the store must turn it back on again later morning.
Sales staff said this is cost cutting measures. I would think it would allow many unhealthy organisms to grow.

All food is suspect nowadays, even healthy veggies.

I used to love cantalupes.......until a few years ago when I read about the salmonella passed down into the fruit via the cutting knife.......ditto for watermelon. So, how can any of us be sure our HEALTHY FOOD is safe to consume?

I never buy anything that is "low fat" or "artificial sweetener" as all of that aspartame, etc. is not healthy either.

Moderation is the key in all things in life......not to be a fanatic or spartan about anything. Even organic produce can be suspect.

I agree. I once bought necterines that came from chile. As soon as I got home from the store I tried one. While eating it, I got a strange uncomfortable feeling in my throat. My throat was slowly getting sore but I tried to ignore it. Finally, it was so bad I looked at my throat in the mirror. The back of my throat was bright red.

So I called the county health department and talked to someone who sounded very knowledgeable. He said countries in south America sometimes (maybe often?) use waste water to irrigate their crops. This water contains feces. And no amount of washing the fruit will get the bacteria out. It gets absorbed into the fruit. After a couple of years went by I accidently tried another necterine from Chile and got the same type of rash. Grapes from Chile will also give me a sore throat. So, as much as possible, I try to avoid buying fruit and vegetables from south America.

This may come under the heading of people being "dumbed down", as I don't think it's widely known. Perhaps I am more sensitive than the average person to whatever type of bacteria it is.

[Villages PL]

Does his research include any clinical trials or data of his own or is it simply selected articles from his reading :read:

So he says in that story fat is needed in a diet, who said it's not?

Are you saying a person can't Get Enough Fat Eating a Plant-based Diet?

Fat is present in all fruits, vegetables, and other plant foods.
Strawberries are 5 percent fat; bell peppers, 6 percent; broccoli, 8 percent; spinach, 11 percent; and soybeans, 41 percent. Several high-fat plant foods contain in excess of 80 percent fat, including certain nuts and seeds, as well as avocados, olives, and coconuts. By eating a delicious, plant-happy diet, you will consume roughly 9 to 15 percent of your total calories from fat, which is ideal.

Getting your fat from plant-based foods means you will be consuming healthy monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats as opposed to dangerous saturated fats. You will be able to eat more food than you ever dreamed of without gaining weight and feel wonderful!


Just a side note for you fight fans, Tim Bradly v Manny Pacquiao last night was won by a vegan! :boxing2::boxing2:

That's very good information about fat. Sometimes I worry about not getting enough. But from now on, I don't think I will worry as much.

[ariel]

Fecal bacteria could make you very ill, but probably not likely to give you a sore throat. More likely that there was some type of irritant on the fruit to have resulted in an immediate local reaction.

I'm seldom comfortable with fruit or fish from South American sources.

[Villages PL]

:BigApplause:


:agree:
Call me skeptical, but I'd rather trust my MD then some anonymous poster proselytizing their belief systems.

If only people would stop and think (instead of jumping to conclusions), or read the previous posts more carefully before replying. It would save a lot of unnecessary explaining.

I loaned my in-law a book to read as he was not yet scheduled for surgery. He could have died at any time during the previous year or months before his diagnosis. He could have died the day I gave him the book. He could have died while waiting to be put on the doctor's schedule. If he had been scheduled, he could have died on his way to the hospital. He could have died during the operation or after the operation, from a hospital infection.

Go back and read my story about him. Did you see anywhere in the story where I told him not to discuss this with his doctor? He's a reasonably intelligent adult and I am not his keeper. He no doubt talked it over with his wife.

When I gave him the book, it was doubtful that he would even read it as he appeared to be very dejected. I told him to just read the first chapter. Then if he didn't like it, he could just forget about it. However, I found out about 6 weeks later that he did read the whole book.

From the time I gave him the book to the time I heard from him, about six weeks had passed. His wife told me he was doing great because of the diet. I never thought it was necessary to ask them whether or not they consulted with their doctor first before going on the diet. That's totally their business and not ours. As I said, they are adults who are capable of making their own decissions.

[Villages PL]

.....

.......and calling MD's advice to have surgery for an acute need/blockage "dumbing down the patient". Duhhhhh.....

If the patient has a fatal heart attack while reading Page One of the (valid) dietary book, the (valid) diet sure ain't gonna do him much good!!!!!

No need to get hysterical. Read my post to KayakerNC and stop jumping to conclusions.

[senior citizen]

I agree. I once bought necterines that came from chile. As soon as I got home from the store I tried one. While eating it, I got a strange uncomfortable feeling in my throat. My throat was slowly getting sore but I tried to ignore it. Finally, it was so bad I looked at my throat in the mirror. The back of my throat was brite red.

So I called the county health department and talked to someone who sounded very knowledgeable. He said countries in south America sometimes (maybe often?) use waste water to irrigate their crops. This water contains feces. And no amount of washing the fruit will get the bacteria out. It gets absorbed into the fruit. After a couple of years went by I accidently tried another necterine from Chile and got the same type of rash. Grapes from Chile will also give me a sore throat. So, as much as possible, I try to avoid buying fruit and vegetables from south America.

This may come under the heading of people being "dumbed down", as I don't think it's widely known. Perhaps I am more sensitive than the average person to whatever type of bacteria it is.


I agree; I also avoid buying fruits and veggies from Chile, etc., etc.
I've also read about them using waste water.....Mexico also.

However, with profit being the bottom line, these stores order their produce from the cheapest supplier.

As I mentioned a few days ago, I couldn't understand why our big supermarket chain was getting their APPLES for their brand name APPLE JUICE from CHINA.....when their own state of New York plus neighboring Vermont, both produce beautiful apples. It's all about profit.

Shop the local farmers markets. Obviously we won't be getting too many tropical fruits but cantalupes do grow very well up here....and in N.Y.

Soap and water on the purchased fruits or a fruit cleanser would be wise.

This is why people do drink juice, hoping it's been pastuerized.

I recall a case where several women died after drinking organic carrot juice.......so, who knows? What one thinks is healthy isn't necessarily so.

It is troubling.

Next time you have a sore throat, slice up some raw garlic and chew it down. It does work. Garlic is a powerful antibiotic.

[senior citizen]

Does anyone have a good explanation as to why those who were born in the 1870's to turn of the century and a few years beyond, for the most part lived a long long life up into their 90's and even beyond (without following any rigid fad diets) and certainly while taking no pharmaceuticals.

Obviously, many did die of infection in those days......so penicillan was a miracle drug.

But how did our great grandparents and grandparents, those who were blessed with long lives.........manage without a little pill for every part of their body????

That's a million dollar question.

We recall our senior neighbors, when we were still young and middle aged, who were just getting onto the medical treadmill with pill bottles all over their kitchen.

They had doctor appointments practically every day of the week as the body was passed around from specialist to specialist.

I do believe that now there is a faction that can think for themselves and those that choose the natural way of disease prevention via eating more healthy foods.....more power to them for having the will power to shun all the bad stuff that is out there.

But more power to those who also see that the little blue and pink and red pills also have harmful side effects down the road.........even chemotherapy and radiation can cause other cancers down the road........as Robin Roberts explained today. We know quite a few people whose "treatment" led to different cancers later on.

Not metastaces.......but from the drugs. We also know doctors and nurses who have to abide by the party line as far as treatment for their patients......but who privately will say that they themselves WILL NOT take chemo or raditation if cancer befell them.

So, whether it is choosing an "alternate" method of eating or diet..........or practicing a more holistic form of healing..........and avoiding the heavy duty chemicals that the pharmaceutical companies push......then "to each his own". My personal opinion is that most people who run from doctor to doctor are indeed afraid of dying as one other poster said........and borderline hypochondriacs. We all have to go from something.

Are we the only ones that watch the evening news filled with drug commercials and then the "side effects" which are worse than the disease in some instances......such as "death", lymphoma, T.B., various other cancers, etc.............anything that messes with the immune system, especially for the auto immune diseases, will wreak havoc down the road.

I know several women who were diagnosed with systemic lupus , supposedly of all their bodily organs and joints.......were put on prednisone and plaquenil.........for years and years.....with terrible side effects.

I also know many other older people who didn't even know they had cancer until the very end......like a few weeks before......they functioned without the worry for years and years of all this battling cancer..........and then just went downhill immediately before death was imminent. In other words, no drugs, no treatment and NO WORRY. They didn't know they had it. In my mother in law's generation, back in the early 70's they didn't even tell the person; she had it probably for several years but didn't know the difference........hers, we later were told, came from two many xrays during pregnancy in the 1950s

But mostly I remember all my long lived family members who never took one single medicine.........other than maybe an aspirin. Their longevity was amazing. Also, there was no processed foods in their day. Personally, I don't think our bodies are made for all these foreign chemicals manufactured by the drug companies.

[pooh]

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you.

Over Half of Your Diet Should Consist of Saturated Fats (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/31/coconut-oil-for-healthy-heart.aspx)


LW888

Interesting to me LW, thank you for posting this.

[Villages PL]

Next time you have a sore throat, slice up some raw garlic and chew it down. It does work. Garlic is a powerful antibiotic.

Thank you. I hope I remember it when the time comes that I need it.

Have your ever noticed this?: I've been noticing for the past year that a lot of apples are waxed. Often, it will state that on the bag. So I wash the apple but I wonder if it does much good because waxed apples are difficult to wash. And I don't have much confidence in the light spray-washing they get (on a conveyer belt) before waxing. I wish they wouldn't wax them; but like you said, it's usually about money. Perhaps they last longer when waxed.

[Villages PL]

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you.

Over Half of Your Diet Should Consist of Saturated Fats (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/31/coconut-oil-for-healthy-heart.aspx)

The above link was made possible by the makers of Crisco!

[jimbo2012]

Does anyone have a good explanation as to why those who were born in the 1870's to turn of the century and a few years beyond, for the most part lived a long long life up into their 90's and even beyond (without following any rigid fad diets) and certainly while taking no pharmaceuticals

That is very interesting question, my quick answer is processed foods.

But currently the USA ranks #38 in the world relating to life expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy).:ohdear:

Average life span

1880 41
1900 49
1930 59
1950 68
1970 70
1990 75
2011 78

Leading causes heart, cancer, stroke, pulmonary, PNEUMONIA. DIABETES (the last two are increasing)

So not that many made it into the 90's as you may have thought.

[Villages PL]

I thought I was clear! Your delivery implies that you think you are the only one on this board who knows what they are talking about, except Jimbo!
You two seem to have a lot in common! Maybe you could share a fridge!:laugh:

Your delivery implies that you think people are dumb enough to believe that half of one's diet should consist of saturated fats.

[jimbo2012]

The above link was made possible by the makers of Crisco!

How did I miss that:eek:

This Dr. is a marketeer IMO, he has no basis of his plagiarized claims or findings, I don't give a great deal of credibility to Dr's that sell products other than their books.

To say it's justified to pay for a website......no way that is what I do for a living, it costs less than $200 a year.

I doctor should be able to fund that w/o selling snake oil.:cus:

[Bill-n-Brillo]

This thread is missing something. Hmmmm......what could that be?

WAIT!! - - - here it is................................ :popcorn:

:jester:

Bill :wave:

[Villages PL]

That is very interesting question, my quick answer is processed foods.

But currently the USA ranks #38 in the world relating to life expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy).:ohdear:

Average life span

1880 41
1900 49
1930 59
1950 68
1970 70
1990 75
2011 78

Leading causes heart, cancer, stroke, pulmonary, PNEUMONIA. DIABETES (the last two are increasing)

So not that many made it into the 90's as you may have thought.

Perhaps no one knows for sure how many made it. But just in my family alone there were several. All of my grandparents were born in the 1870s and all of them lived very long lives. One grandmother lived to 89 and my grandfather lived to 97. The others were close behind. I had a great aunt who lived to 100. And there was another ancestor (listed in my family tree that was researched by my cousin's wife) of a man who was born in 1850 and died in 1956. How about that!! He lived to 106 years old.

One reason why your charts show such short lives is because there was a high rate of infant mortality. But if you didn't die as an infant or during the first 5 years, and didn't die from yellow fever etc, your chances were pretty good. From my understanding, all of my ancestors who were born in Europe had gardens. And they mostly ate natural whole foods rather than processed. They didn't have access to read meat either.

[jimbo2012]

[QUOTE=jimbo2012;504071]Gracie, do you really think anyone would do that without consulting a Dr.?
Unfortunately, yes. Having been in health care for 40 years I've seen too many times "desperation" move people in a dangerous

Perhaps it could be that they can't get all the info and options from their doctors to resort to that incorrect move when your doctors only advise id more drugs rather tan taking the time to explain the dietary options.

We made the change under our (two) doctors care, but understand one of them was against the idea at first, after a year he was convinced by our results and bought the books & DVD.

My other doctor not know details of a vegan diet but was wide open to learning about it, she works at a teaching hospital and helped monitor both of us closely and is amazed at out results.

If you want to increase the chances of having a longer active ailment free retirement read the what's out there on vegan diets by the leading authorities that have the research to to backup their claims.
.

[jimbo2012]

This thread is missing something. Hmmmm......what could that be?

WAIT!! - - - here it is................................ :popcorn:

:jester:

Bill :wave:

Bill as longs as it's not cooked in oil & no butter, it only needs salt & a pitcher of beer to complete the picture.

[senior citizen]

That is very interesting question, my quick answer is processed foods.

But currently the USA ranks #38 in the world relating to life expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy).:ohdear:

Average life span

1880 41
1900 49
1930 59
1950 68
1970 70
1990 75
2011 78

Leading causes heart, cancer, stroke, pulmonary, PNEUMONIA. DIABETES (the last two are increasing)

So not that many made it into the 90's as you may have thought.


Thanks for looking it up. I guess I just come from a very long lived family who lived into their late 90's..........

I do realize the mortality rate due to infection, childbirth, industry related accidents involving workers.....were high.

But, I think you are correct in saying "no processed foods" for the most part. They also walked everywhere out of necessity.

[senior citizen]

Perhaps no one knows for sure how many made it. But just in my family alone there were several. All of my grandparents were born in the 1870s and all of them lived very long lives. One grandmother lived to 89 and my grandfather lived to 97. The others were close behind. I had a great aunt who lived to 100. And there was another ancestor (listed in my family tree that was researched by my cousin's wife) of a man who was born in 1850 and died in 1956. How about that!! He lived to 106 years old.

One reason why your charts show such short lives is because there was a high rate of infant mortality. But if you didn't die as an infant or during the first 5 years, and didn't die from yellow fever etc, your chances were pretty good. From my understanding, all of my ancestors who were born in Europe had gardens. And they mostly ate natural whole foods rather than processed. They didn't have access to read meat either.

I can echo just about everything you've said. If they survived infancy, etc. they could very well live a long long life. They ate simply, mostly things they grew themselves.....things they prepared "from scratch".

Mine ate the true "Mediterranean Diet" even before it became popular.

[senior citizen]

Thank you. I hope I remember it when the time comes that I need it.

Have your ever noticed this?: I've been noticing for the past year that a lot of apples are waxed. Often, it will state that on the bag. So I wash the apple but I wonder if it does much good because waxed apples are difficult to wash. And I don't have much confidence in the light spray-washing they get (on a conveyer belt) before waxing. I wish they wouldn't wax them; but like you said, it's usually about money. Perhaps they last longer when waxed.

I never cared for waxed cukes or apples either.

I looked up that mycotoxin that is produced when a low level of apples , like apple droppings (on the ground, not picked from a tree like is normally done during apple harvest)......is used to make apple juice, such as the type I found the HUGE circular mold in....of varying colors.

PATULIN is a mycotoxin produced by a variety of molds, in particular, Aspergillus and Penicillium. It is commonly found in rotting apples, and the amount of patulin in apple products is generally viewed as a measure of the quality of the apples used in production.

It is not a particularly potent toxin, but a number of studies have shown that it is genotoxic....which has led to some theories that claim that it may be a CARCINOGEN, though animal studies have remained inconclusive.

Patulin is also an antibiotic. Several countries have instituted PATULIN RESTRICTIONS in apple products.

THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION recommends a maximum concentration of 50 ug/L in apple juice.

In Europe, the limit is set to 50 micrograms per kilogram in both apple juice and apple cider......and to half that concentration in solid apple products......I guess like apple butter and apple sauce. and in products for infants and young children. These limits came into law in November of 2003.

It is also listed as one of the foodborne hazards by the World Health Organization.

I found out all of this when I opened the Price Chopper apple juice and found the "alien presence" inside. Wish I still had those pictures.
Corporate headquarters "beat around the bush" and said that all their apple producers in China were monitored closely for safety, etc.

They admitted the apples were foreign.......that went into their apple juice. It was a wakeup call for me, for sure.

Oh.........I just read that even more expensive apple juice such as bought in organic specialty markets.......can have a higher level of Patulin spores than does a "brand name" such as the Price Chopper Apple Juice. I always used to buy MOTTS but due to the fact they had none on their shelves, and the grandbabies were coming, I got the store brand that one time only.........never again. It was so gross, I cannot get myself to drink apple juice again. I even wonder if our Vermont apple cider could have it.

[ilovetv]

I just read that even more expensive apple juice such as bought in organic specialty markets.......can have a higher level of Patulin spores than does a "brand name" such as the Price Chopper Apple Juice. I always used to buy MOTTS but due to the fact they had none on their shelves, and the grandbabies were coming, I got the store brand that one time only.........never again. It was so gross, I cannot get myself to drink apple juice again. I even wonder if our Vermont apple cider could have it.


"Unpasteurized apple cider and juice have been associated with outbreaks of E. coli O157:H7 infection, cryptosporidiosis, and salmonellosis (1-4). Animals are the primary reservoir for the pathogenic organisms associated with these outbreaks. In particular, cattle, deer, and sheep can asymptomatically carry E. coli O157:H7 and Cryptosporidium, and many animals, including cattle, chickens, and pigs, can asymptomatically carry Salmonella.

Although the exact mechanisms of contamination for these previous outbreaks were not clearly determined, in three of the outbreaks, manure was suspected to have contaminated the apples. For example, in an outbreak of cryptosporidiosis in 1993, drop apples were collected from trees adjacent to an area grazed by cattle whose stool contained Cryptosporidium (3), and in a salmonellosis outbreak in 1974, drop apples had been collected from an orchard fertilized with manure (4).

The practice of using drop apples for making apple cider is common (2), and apples can become contaminated by resting on ground contaminated with manure. In an outbreak of E. coli O157:H7 infections in 1991 (2), the cider press operator also raised cattle, and cattle grazed in a field adjacent to the mill. The presence of animals near a cider mill can result in manure inadvertently contacting apples, equipment, or workers' hands. In addition, apples can become contaminated if transported or stored in areas that contain manure, or if rinsed with contaminated water.

These previous outbreaks of illness prompted recommendations to reduce the risk for producing contaminated cider, including 1) preventing the introduction of animal manure into orchards, 2) avoiding use of apples that have fallen to the ground, 3) washing and brushing apples before pressing, 4) using a preservative such as sodium benzoate, and 5) routine pasteurization."


Centers for Disease Control (CDC)

Outbreaks of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Infection and Cryptosporidiosis Associated with Drinking Unpasteurized Apple Cider

Outbreaks of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Infection and Cryptosporidiosis Associated with Drinking Unpasteurized Apple Cider -- Connecticut and New York, October 1996 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00045558.htm)

[senior citizen]

"Unpasteurized apple cider and juice have been associated with outbreaks of E. coli O157:H7 infection, cryptosporidiosis, and salmonellosis (1-4). Animals are the primary reservoir for the pathogenic organisms associated with these outbreaks. In particular, cattle, deer, and sheep can asymptomatically carry E. coli O157:H7 and Cryptosporidium, and many animals, including cattle, chickens, and pigs, can asymptomatically carry Salmonella.

Although the exact mechanisms of contamination for these previous outbreaks were not clearly determined, in three of the outbreaks, manure was suspected to have contaminated the apples. For example, in an outbreak of cryptosporidiosis in 1993, drop apples were collected from trees adjacent to an area grazed by cattle whose stool contained Cryptosporidium (3), and in a salmonellosis outbreak in 1974, drop apples had been collected from an orchard fertilized with manure (4).

The practice of using drop apples for making apple cider is common (2), and apples can become contaminated by resting on ground contaminated with manure. In an outbreak of E. coli O157:H7 infections in 1991 (2), the cider press operator also raised cattle, and cattle grazed in a field adjacent to the mill. The presence of animals near a cider mill can result in manure inadvertently contacting apples, equipment, or workers' hands. In addition, apples can become contaminated if transported or stored in areas that contain manure, or if rinsed with contaminated water.

These previous outbreaks of illness prompted recommendations to reduce the risk for producing contaminated cider, including 1) preventing the introduction of animal manure into orchards, 2) avoiding use of apples that have fallen to the ground, 3) washing and brushing apples before pressing, 4) using a preservative such as sodium benzoate, and 5) routine pasteurization."


Centers for Disease Control (CDC)

Outbreaks of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Infection and Cryptosporidiosis Associated with Drinking Unpasteurized Apple Cider

Outbreaks of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Infection and Cryptosporidiosis Associated with Drinking Unpasteurized Apple Cider -- Connecticut and New York, October 1996 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00045558.htm)

Excellent posting.....!!!

I've come to the conclusion nothing is quite as safe as we once assumed.
Including produce.

Thanks for sharing above information.........again, excellent posting.

My husband's father used to bring home "manure from the circus" to put on their tomatoes.........yuck.

I even wonder about our little garden here; whether or not the groundhogs and chipmunks and deer , who do pass through at night, and fox, etc. ....contaminate the garden.

Obviously, I wash the stuff.

[ssmith]

I am just finishing the book, Eat to Live. One thing I have to agree with is that a person can be Vegan and never eat veggies and fruit which skips some important nutrients some of which may even be unknown as to how beneficial they can be in a diet.

I have read many books over the years and I feel that many people are so confused by this study and that i.e.. Eat more protein, don't eat protein. It is really too bad. One conclusion I do believe is that we all need more unprocessed veggies and fruit in our diet (ooops protein diets don't want you to eat fruit :(.

I believe there are many passionate people are on this subject but would have to agree that the delivery at times has not appeared to be careful. I always told my kids "It's not what you say but how you say it". Also you catch for flies with honey than vinegar.

[graciegirl]

I am just finishing the book, Eat to Live. One thing I have to agree with is that a person can be Vegan and never eat veggies and fruit which skips some important nutrients some of which may even be unknown as to how beneficial they can be in a diet.

I have read many books over the years and I feel that many people are so confused by this study and that i.e.. Eat more protein, don't eat protein. It is really too bad. One conclusion I do believe is that we all need more unprocessed veggies and fruit in our diet (ooops protein diets don't want you to eat fruit :(.

I believe there are many passionate people are on this subject but would have to agree that the delivery at times has not appeared to be careful. I always told my kids "It's not what you say but how you say it". Also you catch for flies with honey than vinegar.


You are right.

My aunt who was a wonderful cook and could make almost anything palatable, said "keep it colorful AND LOTS OF VARIETY..and far more fruits and vegetables than meat and keep it low fat and you will live a long time and enjoy it." She was also big on hot and cold foods and presenting them on pretty dishes and not serving large portions. I think she was on the right track but I do not go around being an evangelist about food.

Some people have diverticula and cannot take a lot of seeds and things, some people have the inability to digest a lot of fibrous vegetables that end of in strands and hurt their innards. Some people have such an aversion to some foods that it is almost impossible to change them. For instance, I don't believe anything could make me consume a plate of bugs now after a life of not eating them and no matter if someone said it tastes just like chicken.

We should try to improve but that doesn't always mean radical changes.

[senior citizen]

You are right.

My aunt who was a wonderful cook and could make almost anything palatable, said "keep it colorful AND LOTS OF VARIETY..and far more fruits and vegetables than meat and keep it low fat and you will live a long time and enjoy it." She was also big on hot and cold foods and presenting them on pretty dishes and not serving large portions. I think she was on the right track but I do not go around being an evangelist about food.

Some people have diverticula and cannot take a lot of seeds and things, some people have the inability to digest a lot of fibrous vegetables that end of in strands and hurt their innards. Some people have such an aversion to some foods that it is almost impossible to change them. For instance, I don't believe anything could make me consume a plate of bugs now after a life of not eating them and no matter if someone said it tastes just like chicken.

We should try to improve but that doesn't always mean radical changes.

Again, words of wisdom.

Married almost 50 years, my hubby never particularly liked any vegetables except corn and a green tossed salad.

Now, he will eat most any vegetable and has broadened his choices in all foods groups.

The one food he had a particular aversion to was red beets, which I always loved.........the pickled variety.
My mom and his mom made Polish borscht which is beet soup.

However, he had been FORCED to eat hot cooked beets in grammar school, by the nuns, around 1st grade and remembers vomiting them up.
It was traumatic to say the least........and to this day, he will not eat beets....as rich as they are in iron.

His mom would also make him grate horseradish root and beets for the holidays. Our parents and grandparents did eat all the healthy foods
as there were no processed foods back then.

Preaching never works.

I know many people with diverticulitis........so what you say above is so true. If they consume nuts and seeds, they end up in the hospital.

[Villages PL]

Some people have diverticula and cannot take a lot of seeds and things,...

And there's a reason for diverticuala. Look it up. Poor diet strikes again. If they had eaten a good diet to begin with, they wouldn't have diverticuala.

That's why I like to inform people. Grandparents, it may be too late for you, in some cases. But you can inform your childern and grandchildren. It may not be too late for them. Don't worry about people calling it "preaching". That's just a red herring.

And don't worry about your delivery. It's far worse not to deliver the message at all.

[Villages PL]

This thread is missing something. Hmmmm......what could that be?

WAIT!! - - - here it is................................ :popcorn:

:jester:

Bill :wave:

Thanks for sharing! :thumbup:

[jimbo2012]

Some people have diverticula and cannot take a lot of seeds and things, some people have the inability to digest a lot of fibrous vegetables that end of in strands and hurt their innards.

Gracie, the Mayo Clinic says (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/diverticulitis-diet/AN01255) to eat a high fiber diet if you have that condition.

No veggies, that appears to be a myth, in fact the opposite is true, veggies are high fiber. Here is list (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-fiber-foods/NU00582) of veggies high in fiber from Mayo

Oh and seeds & nuts, Mayo says there is no scientific evidence of that.

Villages Pl is on point I think, do you agree Gracie?

It also said no popcorn :a20:

On another note and please just take this as an observation, but you said
I feel in my heart you mean well, but this kind of anecdotal information is not only terribly misleading but dangerous. ... We must be so careful in our giving advice like this..

I always try not to give advise or opinions without supporting evidence.

.

[OscarOlden]

I think what Gracie says makes sense - common sense.

[rubicon]

And there's a reason for diverticuala. Look it up. Poor diet strikes again. If they had eaten a good diet to begin with, they wouldn't have diverticuala.

That's why I like to inform people. Grandparents, it may be too late for you, in some cases. But you can inform your childern and grandchildren. It may not be too late for them. Don't worry about people calling it "preaching". That's just a red herring.

And don't worry about your delivery. It's far worse not to deliver the message at all.

Diverticulitis like irritable bowel ,colitis etc are autoimmune illnesses and while diet may or may not help the main cause is the weaken of this system. To suggest that diet alone will control these diseases is misleading. I would submit that extraordinary stress does more harm than food

[graciegirl]

VillagePL you are right about high fiber being good for diverticula, and I am wrong..

However, Your following statement;

"And don't worry about your delivery. It's far worse not to deliver the message at all.[/QUOTE]"



I think it is very like hearing about religion. It is better to live your message and teach without words.


People grow very tired of a repetitive subject and then don't listen to anything one says.

If you are a good example, a healthy person, a good person, a funny person, a well rounded person with varied interests, a person with a smile and a helping hand, then people might wonder about your habits and seek to emulate them.

If you don't capture your audience and repeat yourself again and again, you have lost the chance to change anyone's mind about anything.

[ssmith]

Gracie, It sounds like your Aunt was a wise woman but then I am not surprised....it must run in the family ;)

[Villages PL]

Diverticulitis like irritable bowel ,colitis etc are autoimmune illnesses and while diet may or may not help the main cause is the weaken of this system. To suggest that diet alone will control these diseases is misleading. I would submit that extraordinary stress does more harm than food

Sorry, I disagree. In other cultures, where high fiber diets are the norm, the conditions of diverticulosis and diverticulitis are practically unknown.

Here's what hpppens to cause diverticulosis: A lack of fiber causes food to get packed tight in the intestines/colon. (You will know about this if you've ever been constipated because a lack of fiber will make it hard to pass a stool. The stool can feel hard like a rock. And you can get hemorrhoids from forcing yourself.) When the intestines/colon contract in an effort to move things along, they become "ruptured" (small hernias). In some people diverticulosis becomes inflammed and that's known as diverticulitis.

The small pouches or hernias are called "diverticula".

I never suggested that diet alone will control it. So I never mislead anyone. As a matter of fact, I suggested diet as prevention. My advice was to never get these conditions to begin with. If it's too late for some older people who already have it, they should warn their children and grandchildren. That way it can be prevented by forming good eating habits while they are still young.