Death Knell for the Unions?

[Guest]

In their heyday unions were an incredibly powerful force in the US economy. After a tumultuous start, including shutting down vital coalmines during WWII – a move that threatened the entire war effort, labor unions reached a peak of power in 1950. At that time, 35% of the private work force belonged to unions. Their control over the Democratic Party was unchallenged.

This changed as the world economy and industry importance changed. John L Lewis’s coal miners lost influence as industry shifted from coal to oil as a result the unreliability of coal caused by strikes. Reliance shifted to non-union coal where supply and continuity of paychecks were assured. The same thing happened to the steel industry. It was later to happen to the automobile industry where the US had a highly productive industry in the South and a noncompetitive industry in the Rust Belt. Trans-Atlantic travel left the highly unionized longshoreman behind when ships were replaced by airlines and handloaded loads replaced by containers. Today, less than seven percent of the private workforce in unionized and that number continues to decline.

Over 50% of union members today are public employees at the Federal, State and local levels. This is the source of power and income, above and below the table, for Union bosses. This base has now been shown to be weak. Given a choice, the teachers in Wisconsin have left the Union. Previous to the election nearly 70% had left – now we can expect everyone to leave. This movement will expand as others decide that the Union costs them and gives no advantage except to the Union bosses. Elections in San Diego and San Jose demonstrated overwhelmingly that the taxpayers are unwilling to continue runaway Union benefits.

The Unions will continue to oppose the ideas of whether or not a person must be forced to join and pay the tribute demanded, whether or not the members can have any control of how their dues are spent for a particular politician and whether members have the right to a secret ballot for or against Unionization. They will continue to lose these battles. The people of this country refused to bow down to King George and are now tired of bowing down and paying tribute to Union bosses.

The death knell is sounding for Civil Service Unions just as it has for Unions in private industry. The idea of Unions is as obsolete as the adding machine.

[Guest]

In their heyday unions were an incredibly powerful force in the US economy. After a tumultuous start, including shutting down vital coalmines during WWII – a move that threatened the entire war effort, labor unions reached a peak of power in 1950. At that time, 35% of the private work force belonged to unions. Their control over the Democratic Party was unchallenged.

This changed as the world economy and industry importance changed. John L Lewis’s coal miners lost influence as industry shifted from coal to oil as a result the unreliability of coal caused by strikes. Reliance shifted to non-union coal where supply and continuity of paychecks were assured. The same thing happened to the steel industry. It was later to happen to the automobile industry where the US had a highly productive industry in the South and a noncompetitive industry in the Rust Belt. Trans-Atlantic travel left the highly unionized longshoreman behind when ships were replaced by airlines and handloaded loads replaced by containers. Today, less than seven percent of the private workforce in unionized and that number continues to decline.

Over 50% of union members today are public employees at the Federal, State and local levels. This is the source of power and income, above and below the table, for Union bosses. This base has now been shown to be weak. Given a choice, the teachers in Wisconsin have left the Union. Previous to the election nearly 70% had left – now we can expect everyone to leave. This movement will expand as others decide that the Union costs them and gives no advantage except to the Union bosses. Elections in San Diego and San Jose demonstrated overwhelmingly that the taxpayers are unwilling to continue runaway Union benefits.

The Unions will continue to oppose the ideas of whether or not a person must be forced to join and pay the tribute demanded, whether or not the members can have any control of how their dues are spent for a particular politician and whether members have the right to a secret ballot for or against Unionization. They will continue to lose these battles. The people of this country refused to bow down to King George and are now tired of bowing down and paying tribute to Union bosses.

The death knell is sounding for Civil Service Unions just as it has for Unions in private industry. The idea of Unions is as obsolete as the adding machine.

Not in pro sports though. Unions seem to be very big in professional football, baseball, basketball, etc. Sports unions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_unions) http://libguides.rutgers.edu/content.php?pid=148775&sid=1276918

They also seem to be fairly powerful in Hollywood. I guess the new rule in unions is the more money you make the better chance you have of being in a collective bargaining unit. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-30/hollywood-unions-ratify-merger-to-bolster-clout-with-studios-1-.html

[Guest]

because in sports and hollywood they already makes so much money it is ridiculous and it is only all about who gets how much more. Has absolutely nothing to do with the average American....except we ultimately wind paying the high ticket prices.

Who has any interest in those earning 7 and 8 figure salaries going on strike. It is a complete joke.....that only those earning those amounts care about. I personally would label them with a different term than unions.

btk

[Guest]

BBQMan,

Very interesting post that you copied from somewhere.

I thought the last sentence was very interesting in saying that unions are obsolete.

In the Federal government there are several unions - AFGE, NAGE, NFFE, and more. They have no say in setting pay scales or grades; they cannot strike; and they do provide service for both members and non-members. No one is forced to join a Federal union.

They are very important in the grievance process for an employee when it comes to promotions, demotions, reprimands, or dismissal. The unions also are helpful in other discliniplary situations or even in the hiring process to ensure that the best qualified applicants are referred for consideration by a selecting official instead of hiring based on nepotism or favors owed.

The Wisconsin unions were state unions and I never worked with state but only Federal unions - which are completely different.

All Federal employees, union or not, pay into their retirement system at the Social Security rate; pay into their health plan; get the same sick leave and annual leave; and have the same protection as each other.

Learn what you can about the topic and then write a post in your own words.

[Guest]

BBQMan,

Very interesting post that you copied from somewhere.

I thought the last sentence was very interesting in saying that unions are obsolete.

In the Federal government there are several unions - AFGE, NAGE, NFFE, and more. They have no say in setting pay scales or grades; they cannot strike; and they do provide service for both members and non-members. No one is forced to join a Federal union.

They are very important in the grievance process for an employee when it comes to promotions, demotions, reprimands, or dismissal. The unions also are helpful in other discliniplary situations or even in the hiring process to ensure that the best qualified applicants are referred for consideration by a selecting official instead of hiring based on nepotism or favors owed.

The Wisconsin unions were state unions and I never worked with state but only Federal unions - which are completely different.

All Federal employees, union or not, pay into their retirement system at the Social Security rate; pay into their health plan; get the same sick leave and annual leave; and have the same protection as each other.

Learn what you can about the topic and then write a post in your own words.

Sorry about that Buggy - Unlike you, I am an honest man and do not plagiarize. Accusing someone of plagiarism must be the latest talking point in the Democrap playbook. It appears you differ little from you idol, B. Hussein Obama in this regard. I really did expect more of you and am sorry to see you resort to these tactics.

Yes, unions are obsolete. This includes the alphabet list you provided. Federal employees, like state and local employees, will soon realize that Federal union bosses are not interesting in representing them but are actually interested in the dues they pay.

Please try to be honest and do your own homework rather than repeating Democrap and Union talking points. You are an intelligent man and what you are doing is unworthy of you.

[Guest]

bbqman - if as you foresee, public sector unions cease to exist [at least in large numbers], how do you predict the general public will react when the politicians have the opportunity to dismiss emps at will from the top of the chain to the bottom - resulting in even slower processing than is seen today. timely response to issues, reimburesments, licenses/registrarions and other items processed by public sector is not terribly stellar today - and that is with knowledgable emps...i can only imagine going to the florida dmv with a new cast of characters in training after every change in administration! sheesh!

[Guest]

Jersey Girl, The law is what protects Civil Service employees, not the Unions. As for the DMV, privatized offices can do the job in a more professional and cost effective manner. This has been shown in the airports where security has been privatized. The job is being done more professionally and more effectively at lower cost. Virtually every airport in the US wants to follow San Francisco's example, but the Obama administration will not give them the go ahead.

[Guest]

This isn't a question of opinion. The answer to the question on the future of unions can probably be better understood by an analysis of union membership and a review of state laws that establish employees' rights to opt out of unions.

I don't have those numbers; maybe someone else does. That could provide answers to questions on the future of the labor movement in a pretty unemotional way. No one need get hissy over the question.

[Guest]

thanks for the response, bbqman. can you tell me what law it is that protects the public emloyee from being released at will. appreciate it.

[Guest]

In their heyday unions were an incredibly powerful force in the US economy. After a tumultuous start, including shutting down vital coalmines during WWII – a move that threatened the entire war effort, labor unions reached a peak of power in 1950. At that time, 35% of the private work force belonged to unions. Their control over the Democratic Party was unchallenged.

This changed as the world economy and industry importance changed. John L Lewis’s coal miners lost influence as industry shifted from coal to oil as a result the unreliability of coal caused by strikes. Reliance shifted to non-union coal where supply and continuity of paychecks were assured. The same thing happened to the steel industry. It was later to happen to the automobile industry where the US had a highly productive industry in the South and a noncompetitive industry in the Rust Belt. Trans-Atlantic travel left the highly unionized longshoreman behind when ships were replaced by airlines and handloaded loads replaced by containers. Today, less than seven percent of the private workforce in unionized and that number continues to decline.

Over 50% of union members today are public employees at the Federal, State and local levels. This is the source of power and income, above and below the table, for Union bosses. This base has now been shown to be weak. Given a choice, the teachers in Wisconsin have left the Union. Previous to the election nearly 70% had left – now we can expect everyone to leave. This movement will expand as others decide that the Union costs them and gives no advantage except to the Union bosses. Elections in San Diego and San Jose demonstrated overwhelmingly that the taxpayers are unwilling to continue runaway Union benefits.

The Unions will continue to oppose the ideas of whether or not a person must be forced to join and pay the tribute demanded, whether or not the members can have any control of how their dues are spent for a particular politician and whether members have the right to a secret ballot for or against Unionization. They will continue to lose these battles. The people of this country refused to bow down to King George and are now tired of bowing down and paying tribute to Union bosses.

The death knell is sounding for Civil Service Unions just as it has for Unions in private industry. The idea of Unions is as obsolete as the adding machine.

BBQMan: spot on...thank you

[Guest]

Sorry about that Buggy - Unlike you, I am an honest man and do not plagiarize. Accusing someone of plagiarism must be the latest talking point in the Democrap playbook. It appears you differ little from you idol, B. Hussein Obama in this regard. I really did expect more of you and am sorry to see you resort to these tactics.

Yes, unions are obsolete. This includes the alphabet list you provided. Federal employees, like state and local employees, will soon realize that Federal union bosses are not interesting in representing them but are actually interested in the dues they pay.

Please try to be honest and do your own homework rather than repeating Democrap and Union talking points. You are an intelligent man and what you are doing is unworthy of you.

To quote Col. Sherman T. Potter again, "Horse Hockey".

If you had experience in Federal government, you would realize the role of the employee unions. I love your term of "Federal Union Bosses". Obviously, you have never had meetings with them and have no first hand experience.

I suggest you do some research into the employee unions I mentioned and you just might change your mind.

[Guest]

Sorry about that Buggy - Unlike you, I am an honest man and do not plagiarize. Accusing someone of plagiarism must be the latest talking point in the Democrap playbook. It appears you differ little from you idol, B. Hussein Obama in this regard. I really did expect more of you and am sorry to see you resort to these tactics.

Yes, unions are obsolete. This includes the alphabet list you provided. Federal employees, like state and local employees, will soon realize that Federal union bosses are not interesting in representing them but are actually interested in the dues they pay.

Please try to be honest and do your own homework rather than repeating Democrap and Union talking points. You are an intelligent man and what you are doing is unworthy of you.

I was to my surprise also accused of plagiarism today. I wonder why that, and the times I and others are actually called liars without evidence is not considered a personal attack.

You can accuse people of lying and of plagiarism and that's OK, but call somebody "childish" and you'll get a warning for a "personal" attack.

Anyway, when this happens, you know you've outthought your debating adversary, and all he can think of is that in order to do that you must have cheated. (another personal attack, in my book)

[Guest]

To quote Col. Sherman T. Potter again, "Horse Hockey".

If you had experience in Federal government, you would realize the role of the employee unions. I love your term of "Federal Union Bosses". Obviously, you have never had meetings with them and have no first hand experience.

I suggest you do some research into the employee unions I mentioned and you just might change your mind.


Having done my research into Federal Employee Unions, lets look at the largest one, AFGE. National dues are between $16 and $17 per month. Local dues add to this so that the typical dues are $30 to $35 per month.

The question is what your Union bosses do with this money. AFGE Headquarters in DC is huge, beautiful and close to the Capitol – the high rent district. It even includes art displays and an IHOP cafeteria. AFGE is very closed mouth about the number of its headquarter’s employees, but there are certainly enough to make and IHOP profitable.

AFGE has a long list of national officers. This link provides a partial and I emphasize partial list. National Office | AFGE (http://www.afge.org/Index.cfm?page=NationalOffice1)

To get an idea of how AFGE spends its member’s money, I supply the following list of AFGE conferences and their locations:

June 18-22 Region A Training Conference – Location: Trump Taj Mahal Hotel, Atlantic City. Be assured that a number of national officers will attend on the member’s dollars.

July 27-29: Ninth District Training and Retreat. Location Camden on the Lake, Lake Ozark, MO. Again national officers will attend en-masse on the member’s tab.

Aug. 13-17: AFGE National Convention. Location: Paris Las Vegas Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, NV. Imagine that – Unions going to Las Vegas. The entertainment will certainly be better than that provided to GSA employees for the most recent scandal – especially for the National and District Officers.

We will never know the actual cost of this convention, but we do know that it could be held in the outskirts of DC with no travel or hotel costs for the National officers and other ‘miscellaneous’ costs. The cost savings would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is a pattern here – the Union bosses live high on the hog at member expense. The members buy into the idea that the Union is doing something for them.

For the amount you paid into the Union over three years, you could have taken you and your wife for a five-day visit to Las Vegas. Admittedly, this would not include your shows, other entertainment and food – that is for your Union bosses only. But you could have had a great vacation. You however, prefer sending John Gage and his sycophants on a First Class Las Vegas vacation, rather than taking your wife there so the two of you can enjoy a vacation together.

To quote you on your ideas of Federal employee unions – “Horse Hockey".

Beyond that, you accused me of plagiarism. I contested and said your statement was dishonest. You ignored my reply and chose to attack. My question stands – can you show I plagiarized or was this a dishonest statement?

[Guest]

Having done my research into Federal Employee Unions, lets look at the largest one, AFGE. National dues are between $16 and $17 per month. Local dues add to this so that the typical dues are $30 to $35 per month.

The question is what your Union bosses do with this money. AFGE Headquarters in DC is huge, beautiful and close to the Capitol – the high rent district. It even includes art displays and an IHOP cafeteria. AFGE is very closed mouth about the number of its headquarter’s employees, but there are certainly enough to make and IHOP profitable.

AFGE has a long list of national officers. This link provides a partial and I emphasize partial list. National Office | AFGE (http://www.afge.org/Index.cfm?page=NationalOffice1)

To get an idea of how AFGE spends its member’s money, I supply the following list of AFGE conferences and their locations:

June 18-22 Region A Training Conference – Location: Trump Taj Mahal Hotel, Atlantic City. Be assured that a number of national officers will attend on the member’s dollars.

July 27-29: Ninth District Training and Retreat. Location Camden on the Lake, Lake Ozark, MO. Again national officers will attend en-masse on the member’s tab.

Aug. 13-17: AFGE National Convention. Location: Paris Las Vegas Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, NV. Imagine that – Unions going to Las Vegas. The entertainment will certainly be better than that provided to GSA employees for the most recent scandal – especially for the National and District Officers.

We will never know the actual cost of this convention, but we do know that it could be held in the outskirts of DC with no travel or hotel costs for the National officers and other ‘miscellaneous’ costs. The cost savings would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is a pattern here – the Union bosses live high on the hog at member expense. The members buy into the idea that the Union is doing something for them.

For the amount you paid into the Union over three years, you could have taken you and your wife for a five-day visit to Las Vegas. Admittedly, this would not include your shows, other entertainment and food – that is for your Union bosses only. But you could have had a great vacation. You however, prefer sending John Gage and his sycophants on a First Class Las Vegas vacation, rather than taking your wife there so the two of you can enjoy a vacation together.

To quote you on your ideas of Federal employee unions – “Horse Hockey".

Beyond that, you accused me of plagiarism. I contested and said your statement was dishonest. You ignored my reply and chose to attack. My question stands – can you show I plagiarized or was this a dishonest statement?

BBQman? I do not know who you are or what you did in your past life or present but your two primary posts on this thread have been outstanding and truly worthy of praise because they are fact based, relevant, unemotional and responsive. Bravo! I was going to comment but my comments would not add anything to this topic then have been advanced by you.

[Guest]

Having done my research into Federal Employee Unions, lets look at the largest one, AFGE. National dues are between $16 and $17 per month. Local dues add to this so that the typical dues are $30 to $35 per month.

The question is what your Union bosses do with this money. AFGE Headquarters in DC is huge, beautiful and close to the Capitol – the high rent district. It even includes art displays and an IHOP cafeteria. AFGE is very closed mouth about the number of its headquarter’s employees, but there are certainly enough to make and IHOP profitable.

AFGE has a long list of national officers. This link provides a partial and I emphasize partial list. National Office | AFGE (http://www.afge.org/Index.cfm?page=NationalOffice1)

To get an idea of how AFGE spends its member’s money, I supply the following list of AFGE conferences and their locations:

June 18-22 Region A Training Conference – Location: Trump Taj Mahal Hotel, Atlantic City. Be assured that a number of national officers will attend on the member’s dollars.

July 27-29: Ninth District Training and Retreat. Location Camden on the Lake, Lake Ozark, MO. Again national officers will attend en-masse on the member’s tab.

Aug. 13-17: AFGE National Convention. Location: Paris Las Vegas Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, NV. Imagine that – Unions going to Las Vegas. The entertainment will certainly be better than that provided to GSA employees for the most recent scandal – especially for the National and District Officers.

We will never know the actual cost of this convention, but we do know that it could be held in the outskirts of DC with no travel or hotel costs for the National officers and other ‘miscellaneous’ costs. The cost savings would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is a pattern here – the Union bosses live high on the hog at member expense. The members buy into the idea that the Union is doing something for them.

For the amount you paid into the Union over three years, you could have taken you and your wife for a five-day visit to Las Vegas. Admittedly, this would not include your shows, other entertainment and food – that is for your Union bosses only. But you could have had a great vacation. You however, prefer sending John Gage and his sycophants on a First Class Las Vegas vacation, rather than taking your wife there so the two of you can enjoy a vacation together.

To quote you on your ideas of Federal employee unions – “Horse Hockey".

Beyond that, you accused me of plagiarism. I contested and said your statement was dishonest. You ignored my reply and chose to attack. My question stands – can you show I plagiarized or was this a dishonest statement?


BBQMan,

You did an outstanding job on research on this topic. Yes, I know of the AFGE building and of their seminars in Las Vegas and elsewhere. I know John Gage and he is a good person - tough but good.

I do stand by my statement that Federal unions are necessary for employee's rights in just about every area of employment. The unions can be a pain in the rear for managers at times but it is a watchdog role for the union.

No, I could not find any source that you might have copied from. That was my mistake and I apologize publically for it. The reason I said the article was from somewhere you copied was that it was so well writtten. You are an excellent writer. Accept my apology.

[Guest]

thanks for the response, bbqman. can you tell me what law it is that protects the public emloyee from being released at will. appreciate it.

Civil Servants (Federal) were initially provided protection under the Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act of 1883 that initially protected only 10% of Federal Employees. However, by 1896 the vast majority of non-military Federal jobs were under Civil Service. This was reinforced by the Hatch Act of 1939 that prohibited using Federal Employees in the Executive branch from Further reinforcement came about in 1978 when the Merit System Protection Board was established.

If you want to know the total job protection provided by these acts, ask yourself the question, “When was the last time you knew of a Federal civil servant being fired for anything other than criminal activity?” Incompetence and laziness are not reasons for termination.

[Guest]

BBQMan,

You did an outstanding job on research on this topic. Yes, I know of the AFGE building and of their seminars in Las Vegas and elsewhere. I know John Gage and he is a good person - tough but good.

I do stand by my statement that Federal unions are necessary for employee's rights in just about every area of employment. The unions can be a pain in the rear for managers at times but it is a watchdog role for the union.

No, I could not find any source that you might have copied from. That was my mistake and I apologize publically for it. The reason I said the article was from somewhere you copied was that it was so well writtten. You are an excellent writer. Accept my apology.

Your gracious apology is cheerfully accepted. As I noted earlier, I was surprised by this since I have come to know you via these boards as an intelligent and considerate man.

[Guest]

Democrap? I like that word.

[Guest]

Democrap? I like that word.

I like the word, "Dumbpublican".

[Guest]

Right to Work States | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation (http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm)

This may not be up-to-date. It shows the right to work states in the US.

[Guest]

If you want to know the total job protection provided by these acts, ask yourself the question, “When was the last time you knew of a Federal civil servant being fired for anything other than criminal activity?” Incompetence and laziness are not reasons for termination.


At my time in the Dept of Veterans Affairs in Washington DC, there were quite a few that were terminated for incompetence and laziness every year. They ranged all the way from GS-3 mail clerks to GS-15 managers.

[Guest]

Civil Servants (Federal) were initially provided protection under the Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act of 1883 that initially protected only 10% of Federal Employees. However, by 1896 the vast majority of non-military Federal jobs were under Civil Service. This was reinforced by the Hatch Act of 1939 that prohibited using Federal Employees in the Executive branch from Further reinforcement came about in 1978 when the Merit System Protection Board was established.

If you want to know the total job protection provided by these acts, ask yourself the question, “When was the last time you knew of a Federal civil servant being fired for anything other than criminal activity?” Incompetence and laziness are not reasons for termination.

bbqman - so that protects the fed emps from being fired at will - does the same protection apply to state/local emps? if not, then state, county, muni emps could still be released - without cause or with trumped up charges after any change in administration? i know that in nj, we public sector emps had no such protection EXCEPT for that provided by union contract.

thanx again for your info.