What's the difference between school football and hazing?

[Villages PL]

What's the difference considering both, at times, have caused injury and death? If you accept that they both cause injury and death, why is one allowed and encouraged while the other is banned?

For more information on this subject, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"

[Bogie Shooter]

What's the difference considering both, at times, have caused injury and death?

Its the same thing.
ESPN.com - OTL: Sports hazing incidents (http://espn.go.com/otl/hazing/list.html)

[BaylorBear]

One has a large audience and the other doesn't?

[OscarOlden]

One is SUPPOSED to be fun and the other is mean.

[BobandSandy]

Football: a group strives to have victory that is shared by all
Hazing: a group strives to have victory by causing failure in one

[RichieLion]

I'm having trouble understanding how this thread's question is garnering serious thought.

There is nothing whatsoever similar between football and hazing.

One is a sport, and one is a ritual. Not even remotely similar things.

I can say:

What's the difference between football and rock climbing?

What's the difference between football and motorcycling?

What's the difference between football and paragliding?

I can probably think of a hundred more examples that fit the parameter of your query.

[Villages PL]

I'm having trouble understanding how this thread's question is garnering serious thought.

There is nothing whatsoever similar between football and hazing.

One is a sport, and one is a ritual. Not even remotely similar things.

I can say:

What's the difference between football and rock climbing?

What's the difference between football and motorcycling?

What's the difference between football and paragliding?

I can probably think of a hundred more examples that fit the parameter of your query.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, RichieLion. I'll try to answer your questions:

My original question (on this thread) asked about school football and hazing. I assumed it would be understood that we are talking about activities that are usually engaged in by students. Football is a school activity that is permitted and encouraged. Hazing, the "ritual" engaged in by students is usually forbidden. Anyway, to make a long story short, we are talking about student activities. Rock climbing, motorcycling, and paragliding are not usually school activities, as far as I am aware of.

[Bogie Shooter]

Its the same thing.
ESPN.com - OTL: Sports hazing incidents (http://espn.go.com/otl/hazing/list.html)

Well, I sure missed the point of the OP.

[skyguy79]

...

[Irish Rover]

Huh!!!!!!!!!

[graciegirl]

How does this tie in with eating vegetables?

[Villages PL]

Well, I sure missed the point of the OP.

Well, I guess my point is that they both have caused injury and death. But then the real question is: Why is one allowed and encouraged while the other is banned? Perhaps I should have stated that question from the beginning? I'll go back and include it.

[Villages PL]

Huh!!!!!!!!!

Sorry if it was confusing. I went back and made a change to my opening post so as to clarify what this is about.

[BarryRX]

I think I'll give this a try, even though I think RichieLion answered it well. Our sports like football and basketball are meant to test our physical strength, speed, and skill against one another or against a standard. They are governed by rules and hopefully by a sense of fair play. Whenever we pit our strength and speed against someone else's, injuries are possible. Hazing has none of these elements. It is an institutionalized form of bullying meant to cause pain and humiliation as some sort of entry fee into the organization doing the hazing. Just because two completely activities can lead to the same conclusion (injury or death), it is faulty logic to say that the two activities are then the same.

[Villages PL]

How does this tie in with eating vegetables?

Thanks for reminding me. I'll save that for the "Medical and Health Discussion" board.

[Irish Rover]

Seriously!!!!! Is this the dumbest question ever asked on this site?

[Villages PL]

I think I'll give this a try, even though I think (blank) answered it well.

I don't think so. What was expressed was fatalism, as follows: "People die all the time from other activities so we should just accept death as inevitable."

Our sports like football and basketball are meant to test our physical strength, speed, and skill against one another or against a standard. They are governed by rules and hopefully by a sense of fair play.

Good so far!

Whenever we pit our strength and speed against someone else's, injuries are possible.

What about death? Don't forget death. I just did a search to see if I could get an idea of how serious a problem this might be. Up until now, I really wasn't sure.

I searched: "How many people have died playing football." To my surprise I found that 325 boys and men have died (directly or indirectly) from 1982 - 2008. I would say it's a fairly significant number. Wouldn't you?

Hazing has none of these elements. It is an institutionalized form of bullying meant to cause pain and humiliation as some sort of entry fee into the organization doing the hazing.

So football has better intentions. I suppose that's something football fans can hang their hat on while forgetting how many have died. Not to mention serious long lasting injuries.

Just because two completely activities can lead to the same conclusion (injury or death), it is faulty logic to say that the two activities are then the same.

You may be right on that point. One has better intentions. Although many might say that hazing starts out as a way to have some fun. And some might say that there are football players who are also bullies.

[zcaveman]

If this thread was just about hazing as in the FAMU hazing I guess there could be a meaningful dialogue. But to compare it to football is ludicrous.

As far back as I can remember there was always hazing in sports. When you joined the baseball, football, basketball or track team, and you were one of the newbies you were subjected to some kind of hazing. It was expected. Carrying the equipment, hot-rub in your jock strap, singing songs, etc. But it was nothing demeaning or physically damaging. Even the pro rookies are subjected to hazing.

What they did at FAMU was beyond hazing. It was brutalizing of the rookies and they should be punished.

[Mikeod]

To distill it down, one is an activity you enter at your own volition, hopefully aware of the risks and benefits of participation. The other is an activity you are subjected to usually against your will without prior awareness of the risks. BIG difference.

[graciegirl]

To distill it down, one is an activity you enter at your own volition, hopefully aware of the risks and benefits of participation. The other is an activity you are subjected to usually against your will without prior awareness of the risks. BIG difference.

Nailed it! As usual.

[2BNTV]

I think I'll give this a try, even though I think RichieLion answered it well. Our sports like football and basketball are meant to test our physical strength, speed, and skill against one another or against a standard. They are governed by rules and hopefully by a sense of fair play. Whenever we pit our strength and speed against someone else's, injuries are possible. Hazing has none of these elements. It is an institutionalized form of bullying meant to cause pain and humiliation as some sort of entry fee into the organization doing the hazing. Just because two completely activities can lead to the same conclusion (injury or death), it is faulty logic to say that the two activities are then the same.

:agree: Excellent post.

[Villages PL]

:agree: Excellent post.

Yes, if you ignore the fact of 325 deaths over 26 years, it's not bad. Not to mention numerous long-lasting or life-long injuries like concussions. All one need do is ignore the facts.

[graciegirl]

Yes, if you ignore the fact of 325 deaths over 26 years, it's not bad. Not to mention numerous long-lasting or life-long injuries like concussions. All one need do is ignore the facts.

Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.

[RichieLion]

Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

I personally am not, nor ever have been interested in playing...which is a good thing since I am as clumsy as a cow on a crutch. But I do know this, you won't change kids from wanting to play and adults from finding it interesting to watch.

I am saddened by the number of concussions and lifelong injuries that occur to young people who play contact sports...but I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.

There are many risks in life that if we don't take robs life of much of what is important and memorable.

When I was about 14 I had an accident on my bicycle and broke my clavicle. I could have broken my neck. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to ride bicycles. But, I would have missed all the great adventures and the places I'd seen and the people I met.

Live and let live. Stop trying to control other people's lives because of your own fears and hangups. Believe me, nobody appreciates a buttinsky.

[skyguy79]

There are many risks in life that if we don't take robs life of much of what is important and memorable.

When I was about 14 I had an accident on my bicycle and broke my clavicle. I could have broken my neck. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to ride bicycles. But, I would have missed all the great adventures and the places I'd seen and the people I met.

Live and let live. Stop trying to control other people's lives because of your own fears and hangups. Believe me, nobody appreciates a buttinsky.I too was brought to a hospital due to a bicycle accident and I was also injured while playing HS football and had to have numerous sports theropy sessions at RPI in Troy, NY. Today I still have dead nerve ends on my leg from that injury. Despite those experiences, I still agree with everything you have stated.

[redwitch]

One of the most dangerous sports is horseback riding. The most sports injuries in TV are caused by pickleball. I broke my elbow going to the bathroom in the dark. There is risk in anything we do.

Hazing is a form of bullying used to see if you're "acceptable" to a group. It is not like the conditioning required to play a sport. Football and other sports do not go out of their way to humiliate you. Nor is there deliberate harm. There is protection for football in the way of helmets, pads, rules. Hazing has no protection and no rules. So, how can you compare the two?

[Villages PL]

Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

It's not my endeavor. I'm not an anti-football activist. This website is the first time I ever brought it up. Eventually, it will fade away and I will most likely never bring it up again.

I personally am not, nor ever have been interested in playing...which is a good thing since I am as clumsy as a cow on a crutch. But I do know this, you won't change kids from wanting to play and adults from finding it interesting to watch.

I had loads of fun playing touch football in grammer school. There wasn't any formal program but it was still fun. So I'm not trying to change kids from wanting to play or adults from watching.

I am saddened by the number of concussions and lifelong injuries that occur to young people who play contact sports...but I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

True, so lets just reduce the risks. Kids can have lots of fun without knocking their brains out or killing themselves.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Yes, but in all of those endeavors, measures are taken to reduce risks.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

And that could be accomplished with touch football. (Hey, no snickering from the peanut gallery.)

I just don't understand the point of this thread.

You might understand it more by going to the political board.

[2BNTV]

Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

I personally am not, nor ever have been interested in playing...which is a good thing since I am as clumsy as a cow on a crutch. But I do know this, you won't change kids from wanting to play and adults from finding it interesting to watch.

I am saddened by the number of concussions and lifelong injuries that occur to young people who play contact sports...but I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.

Well said. Excellent post.

A horse has four legs and a chair has four legs.

Logical to say that a horse is the same as a chair? I'm sorry to say that I don't seem to be able to correlate hazing with sports. I am well aware of the long term effects of playing football but as Gracie said, it won't be stopped or banned.

A cow on a crutch? Gracie you are a hoot. :smiley:

[graciegirl]

Well said. Excellent post.

A horse has four legs and a chair has four legs.

Logical to say that a horse is the same as a chair? I'm sorry to say that I don't seem to be able to correlate hazing with sports. I am well aware of the long term effects of playing football but as Gracie said, it won't be stopped or banned.

A cow on a crutch? Gracie you are a hoot. :smiley:

I am so glad you are back and you like my humor.

Hugs to you, fella!!!:wave:

[2BNTV]

Same to you Gracie. :wave:

[Villages PL]

There are many risks in life that if we don't take robs life of much of what is important and memorable.

When I was about 14 I had an accident on my bicycle and broke my clavicle. I could have broken my neck. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to ride bicycles. But, I would have missed all the great adventures and the places I'd seen and the people I met.

Live and let live.

Exactly. And the same may apply here on this thread.


Stop trying to control other people's lives because of your own fears and hangups.

You want me to stop? That sounds controlling!


Believe me, nobody appreciates a buttinsky.

Even so, I appreciate you butting in on this thread because I may have learned something from it.

[Villages PL]

Seriously!!!!! Is this the dumbest question ever asked on this site?

I think you may perceive it as dumb because you are suddenly confronted with something you have never seriously considered before.

It's very cleaver of you to try to change the topic to "dumbest question ever". But lets get back to the topic of this thread: With all the hundreds of deaths and serious injuries over the past couple of decades, why has football not been banned while hazing has?

[Villages PL]

If this thread was just about hazing as in the FAMU hazing I guess there could be a meaningful dialogue. But to compare it to football is ludicrous.

As far back as I can remember there was always hazing in sports. When you joined the baseball, football, basketball or track team, and you were one of the newbies you were subjected to some kind of hazing. It was expected. Carrying the equipment, hot-rub in your jock strap, singing songs, etc. But it was nothing demeaning or physically damaging. Even the pro rookies are subjected to hazing.

What they did at FAMU was beyond hazing. It was brutalizing of the rookies and they should be punished.

Your contention is that hazing, except for the FAMU incident, is not all that bad. Well then football, with 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008, seems to be far worse. Why has it not been banned along with hazing?

[quirky3]

Your contention is that hazing, except for the FAMU incident, is not all that bad. Well then football, with 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008, seems to be far worse. Why has it not been banned along with hazing?
There is a reality here that helps explain it - not saying it is good or bad. Hazing does not make money for schools or professional sports teams, advertisers or TV stations. People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them. For better or worse, football is built into American culture and economy at so many levels, and people depend on it financially. I think that explains why it is not banned. Maybe over time it will be evolve into a kinder, gentler sport - but maybe not.

[zcaveman]

Your contention is that hazing, except for the FAMU incident, is not all that bad. Well then football, with 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008, seems to be far worse. Why has it not been banned along with hazing?

What I was trying to say is that hazing is a rite of passage. Extreme hazing (ala FAMU) should not be allowed. I have not checked but there are deaths and serious injuries in almost all sports. Do you want to ban them also? Or are you just picking on football for some reason?

If you were to do as statistic study of the number of people that play football versus the 325 deaths from 1982 - 2008 (what happened to 2009 to the present?), you will find it is a very small percentage. I am not saying that even one death is worth it but in the statistical model it is very small.

[Villages PL]

....." Or are you just picking on football for some reason?

Glad you asked. I'm learning as I go along and I just learned who Patty Sexton is by doing a search online. Try searching, "Give some thought to call to ban HS football". From what I understand, she is a Penn. school board member and a teacher. 1) She doesn't think taxes should fund HS football. 2) She worries about the possibility of expensive law suits (which would put tax payers at risk) and 3) she worries about serious long lasting injuries to students.

If you were to do as statistic study of the number of people that play football versus the 325 deaths from 1982 - 2008 (what happened to 2009 to the present?), you will find it is a very small percentage. I am not saying that even one death is worth it but in the statistical model it is very small.

Thanks. I understand it's not a lot, especially if you look at the number of deaths per year and then per month.

[2BNTV]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Villages PL]

To distill it down, one is an activity you enter at your own volition, hopefully aware of the risks and benefits of participation. The other is an activity you are subjected to usually against your will without prior awareness of the risks. BIG difference.

OMG! You nailed it? No, I don't think so. :eek:

It starts in high school and at that young age they often think they're indestructible. They get sucked in by the "glamour" and excitement, or whatever you choose to call it. The other (hazing) they're anxious to prove they're tough enough to take it to be accepted. Again, they still think they are indestructible. Acceptance is everything as it is in football.

:024:

[Villages PL]

One of the most dangerous sports is horseback riding. The most sports injuries in TV are caused by pickleball. I broke my elbow going to the bathroom in the dark. There is risk in anything we do.

Hazing is a form of bullying used to see if you're "acceptable" to a group. It is not like the conditioning required to play a sport. Football and other sports do not go out of their way to humiliate you. Nor is there deliberate harm. There is protection for football in the way of helmets, pads, rules. Hazing has no protection and no rules. So, how can you compare the two?

Regardless of intentions, whether good or bad, we can compare the resulting injuries and deaths. I don't know how many serious injuries or deaths can be attributed to hazing but their's a fair number of injuries and deaths caused by football. A search turned up 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008. The numbers of injuries may be more difficult to compare but I assume there are a lot of injuries in football.

For more information on this subject, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"

[Villages PL]

There is a reality here that helps explain it - not saying it is good or bad. Hazing does not make money for schools or professional sports teams, advertisers or TV stations. People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them. For better or worse, football is built into American culture and economy at so many levels, and people depend on it financially. I think that explains why it is not banned. Maybe over time it will be evolve into a kinder, gentler sport - but maybe not.

You made some excellent points. And I got a chuckle out of your statement, "People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them."

I first heard about this issue on the radio (Friday?) and football was supported 100% by a popular talk-show host. I knew immediately that it had "industry" written all over it. The food industry, that is, because football is a bananza for the fast food industry. And radio earns a lot of money advertising fast food. So it's all connected and "built into American culture and economy at so many levels," as you stated so well. We're on the same page!!

For more information on how this got started, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"

[graciegirl]

Happy Father's Day. VillagesPl.

[RichieLion]

You want me to stop? That sounds controlling!

It's only a suggestion. Far be it from me to be able to control your compulsions.

[quirky3]

You made some excellent points. And I got a chuckle out of your statement, "People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them."

I first heard about this issue on the radio (Friday?) and football was supported 100% by a popular talk-show host. I knew immediately that it had "industry" written all over it. The food industry, that is, because football is a bananza for the fast food industry. And radio earns a lot of money advertising fast food. So it's all connected and "built into American culture and economy at so many levels," as you stated so well. We're on the same page!!

For more information on how this got started, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"
Actually, to your point, wouldn't it be nice if human nature evolved to a point where there was a lot less violence overall. I sometimes think (not too weird, but OK) about what impression a person from another planet would get when visiting here. A peek at the evaluation sheet for humans - a rating scale from 1 to 10. Still engages in tribal warfare. Ends lives in many domestic, international and legal situations. Entertainment seeks fights (hockey/boxing), crashes (racing)....you get the idea. But hopefully we have come a long way
and will continue to evolve. And your suggestions are one way to do that.

[Cedwards38]

I supposed any school district sanctioned sport, or activity for that matter, has it's dangers. Maybe the difference is that people choose to participate in football, but hazing is imposed upon them? Danger is all around us, in everything we do, no matter our age. We choose to take our risks in life every day when we drive, walk, swim, etc. Hazing is a crime of violence. I get your point, but I think there is a big difference.

[Tiger Lady]

Why don't we all just sit at home and wait to die? What fun!!!!!

[Villages PL]

Why don't we all just sit at home and wait to die? What fun!!!!!

It's all or nothing? We should either have football or sit home and wait to die?

[Bogie Shooter]

Reading these posts makes my head hurt......................

[Villages PL]

Happy Father's Day. VillagesPl.

Thank you!

[Villages PL]

Reading these posts makes my head hurt......................

It might be time for your annual eye exam.

[Villages PL]

It's only a suggestion. Far be it from me to be able to control your compulsions.

In 2007, in the U.S., there were 14,556 school districts and 15,974 high schools. Real compulsion is when someone is not satisfied unless all school districts and all high schools have football. They can't stand the thought that somewhere in the U.S. there might not be football. If someone even suggests that perhaps football shouldn't be allowed somewhere, they get extremely upset and frustrated. And they will attack whomever made such a horrible suggestion. That's real compulsive behavior.

[eweissenbach]

In 2007, in the U.S., there were 14,556 school districts and 15,974 high schools. Real compulsion is when someone is not satisfied unless all school districts and all high schools have football. They can't stand the thought that somewhere in the U.S. there might not be football. If someone even suggests that perhaps football shouldn't be allowed somewhere, they get extremely upset and frustrated. And they will attack whomever made such a horrible suggestion. That's real compulsive behavior.

Who are these compulsive people of whom you speak? I have not heard of anyone who has said they are "not satisfied unless all school districts and all high schools have football". I coached for fourteen years in a rural area of northwest Missouri and we were surrounded by small towns with high schools which had no football. The schools were too small to support football, having too few able bodied young men to field a team. The young men in these schools had other sports outlets available and seemed to be unharmed. There were also several schools in the area which were too small for eleven man football, but fielded an eight-man version of the sport. Methinks you are really overreaching on this and many posters have answered your original question adequately. In my years of playing, coaching, following the sport including my own two boys, and helping as a booster, I have never observed or known of, a fatality or life threatening injury. I look forward to your reply, pulling out of context some of my points and countering them. Knock yourself out.

[skyguy79]

In 2007, in the U.S., there were 14,556 school districts and 15,974 high schools. Real compulsion is when someone is not satisfied unless all school districts and all high schools have football. They can't stand the thought that somewhere in the U.S. there might not be football. If someone even suggests that perhaps football shouldn't be allowed somewhere, they get extremely upset and frustrated. And they will attack whomever made such a horrible suggestion. That's real compulsive behavior.Sorry, but I can't agree with your view of football programs or your over dramatization to emphasize that view. What you describe as people getting "extremely upset and fustrated" is more about people being upset when so-called do-gooders actively try to impose their negative views on the future of sports or when school funds get cut and the first programs to go are music and/or sports.

There may be some truth in what you say in a few cases, but it's really more about the kids and the threat of something important for their overall development being taken away from them. And what you call "real compulsive behavior" is more a reaction to what's potentially being taken away from the kids and the proactive efforts to find a resolution to the problems created through attempts to get funds re-instated or find alternate solutions to mitigate the problem.

Anyway, as I already said it's "about the kids" out there and not about us or our opinions. Many minds greater than ours have been discussing and dealing with this issue for many years, and truthfully, our talk about it is just that... talk!

[Villages PL]

Who are these compulsive people of whom you speak?

Rush and some of his followers. (See whose post I was answering.)

I have not heard of anyone who has said they are "not satisfied unless all school districts and all high schools have football".

I was speaking of those who get super defensive, frustrated, insulting and act as though that is the case, as if they must have football everywhere or else they are not satisfied.

I coached for fourteen years in a rural area of northwest Missouri and we were surrounded by small towns with high schools which had no football. The schools were too small to support football, having too few able bodied young men to field a team. The young men in these schools had other sports outlets available and seemed to be unharmed. There were also several schools in the area which were too small for eleven man football, but fielded an eight-man version of the sport.

It seems that small towns or small schools have valid excuses for not being able to have football. So no one will fault them for not participating. But this story started with a Penn. school board member/teacher, Patty Saxton, who spoke up against high school football for various reasons. 1) injuries, especially concussions 2) football being funded by taxpayers and 3) potential law suits. For those reasons she expressed her opinion that Penn. should not have high school football.

As a result, she was called a "busybody woman" by Rush and some of his followers (or at least one in particular that I know of). Even though she said herself that there's no way football would ever be banned.

So here's how it gets complicated: I started this thread to find out what people think about football injuries compared to hazing injuries. Then I decided to bring up the incident with Patty Saxton to clarify what gave rise to my interest in this subject. And because I defend her opinion, well, you can see for yourself what happens.

Methinks you are really overreaching on this and many posters have answered your original question adequately. In my years of playing, coaching, following the sport including my own two boys, and helping as a booster, I have never observed or known of, a fatality or life threatening injury. I look forward to your reply, pulling out of context some of my points and countering them. Knock yourself out.

Overreaching in what way? I simply posed a few questions and tried to bring out a few facts about the numbers of deaths. Some posts tend to get nasty and make me the issue instead of sticking to the topic that was presented. You don't see that as overreaching? Well, I do.

[Villages PL]

Sorry, but I can't agree with your view of football programs or your over dramatization to emphasize that view. What you describe as people getting "extremely upset and fustrated" is more about people being upset when so-called do-gooders actively try to impose their negative views on the future of sports or when school funds get cut and the first programs to go are music and/or sports.

Well, when people start trying to make me the subject/topic of this thread by name calling (i.e., do-gooder, buttinsky etc.) I tend to put it back on them. They don't have anything substantive to add to the discussion so instead they try to make it about me.

There may be some truth in what you say in a few cases, but it's really more about the kids and the threat of something important for their overall development being taken away from them. And what you call "real compulsive behavior" is more a reaction to what's potentially being taken away from the kids and the proactive efforts to find a resolution to the problems created through attempts to get funds re-instated or find alternate solutions to mitigate the problem.

Well, first of all, nothing is being taken away from anyone, at least as far as I know. It's just a discussion. And, anyway, someone in the know just said that kids do just fine without football. It doesn't hurt their development if they don't have it.

Anyway, as I already said it's "about the kids" out there and not about us or our opinions. Many minds greater than ours have been discussing and dealing with this issue for many years, and truthfully, our talk about it is just that... talk!

I'm not concerned about the many minds that are greater than ours. This board is for us Villagers to ask questions and give our opinions. It is just talk, that's why they call it a discussion board.

[skyguy79]

Well, when people start trying to make me the subject/topic of this thread by name calling (i.e., do-gooder, buttinsky etc.) I tend to put it back on them. They don't have anything substantive to add to the discussion so instead they try to make it about me.

Well, first of all, nothing is being taken away from anyone, at least as far as I know. It's just a discussion. And, anyway, someone in the know just said that kids do just fine without football. It doesn't hurt their development if they don't have it.

I'm not concerned about the many minds that are greater than ours. This board is for us Villagers to ask questions and give our opinions. It is just talk, that's why they call it a discussion board.Thank you for you're response!