Just so we know who

[Guest]

got us here...

In 2007, Obama right after he became a candidate announced a health plan to SEIU union health care seminar and when asked for details he had none....

Health Care Forum: Barack Obama (1 of 3) - YouTube

He said he had a principal but for sure everybody will be in.

Two months later he brings out his plan, and claims everyone is in. He had focused on price in this plan. Everybody listened to his claims and debunked them all

In the fall of 2007, Hillary Clinton introduces her plan that DID put everybody in

Clinton Health Plan Outlined (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700118.html)

Now it was Clinton and Edwards against Obama on getting everyone in the plans.

In 2008 during a debate he is asked about not having everyone in and he says...

""A mandate means that in some fashion, everybody will be forced to buy health insurance." Instead of going that route, his plan, he said, "emphasizes lowering costs."

Universal Health Care Democratic Debate 01-21-08 - YouTube

The entire campaign he kept saying..if you elect Hilarry you will be required to have insurance..if you elect me, I will give you your freedom and lower your costs.

PolitiFact | Her mandate doesn't mention garnishment (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/apr/21/barack-obama/her-mandate-doesnt-mention-garnishment/)

His strong objection to a mandate lasted a few months into his presidency and then he changed. We had elected a President who was either grandly persuaded that huge government power was necessary OR he only told us during the campaign because it would help get him elected.

When the bill came out, Republicans immediately called it a tax and Obama strongly objected....

""For us to say that you've got to take a responsibility to get health insurance, is absolutely not a tax increase. What's it's saying is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you."

Obama: Mandate is Not a Tax - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/09/obama-mandate-is-not-a-tax/)

From a White House memo..

"what President Obama is proposing is not a tax, but a requirement to comply with the law."

Word from the White House: Common Ground on Health Insurance Reform & The Real Health Care Tax | The White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2009/09/29/word-white-house-common-ground-health-insurance-reform-real-health-care-tax)

During arguments in SCOTUS, the government (Obama) actually argued BOTH..they said it was a mandate and a tax. Again, not what is best...what ever gets my way.

I post this because this is and has been Obama...he does not tell the truth...he flat out lies for his own accomodation and does it over and over and over.

This is the man that some adore.....cannot figure it out. These are not innuendos, they are out and out lies.

I have posted many of his lies on here and what bothers me a lot about this one is that I got sucked in with his phoney baloney on this one from the beginning. I wanted so much of what is in this bill but it is bad bad policy and I am offended that is was begat with and by lies.

[Guest]

a very good post, bucco. save your blood pressure and just use your right to vote in nov....that is the best recourse...

[Guest]

The Affordable Care Act is the law of the land. It is 100% legal and constitutional.

Get over it. Move on with your life.

[Guest]

The Affordable Care Act is the law of the land. It is 100% legal and constitutional.

Get over it. Move on with your life.

So was slavery for a time and look what happended there.

[Guest]

So was slavery for a time and look what happended there.

Yep,sounds like Scott is preparing FL for secession now. :yuck:

[Guest]

ObamaCare was passed in an extremely Unconstitutional manner, but that doesn't make it right. What will make it right is repealing it.

We'll move on that.

[Guest]

since we all know politicians do try to please the voting block that elected them, how about a possibility that he is responding to what he hears from his constituency and it just so happens some of you are not his supporters hence the negative dialogue.

Remember that the health care legislation was opposed by a majority of Americans when being proposed, the majority was clearly against it during the 2010 elections and what you are seeing is politicians following the wishes of the majority.

btk

[Guest]

since we all know politicians do try to please the voting block that elected them, how about a possibility that he is responding to what he hears from his constituency and it just so happens some of you are not his supporters hence the negative dialogue.

Remember that the health care legislation was opposed by a majority of Americans when being proposed, the majority was clearly against it during the 2010 elections and what you are seeing is politicians following the wishes of the majority.

btk

I think that you are absolutey correct on this !!!

Now, I realize I am biased on this, but such a BFD, a wide sweeping policy, something that touches all lives, as this deserves better than this, as this political MOOD, if you will, followed him to the WH. It

[Guest]

ObamaCare was passed in an extremely Unconstitutional manner, but that doesn't make it right. What will make it right is repealing it.

We'll move on that.

The Supreme Court decided that the Affordable Care Act IS constitutional. Get over it.

Lots of people did not think Roe v. Wade was a good decision - but it is the law of the land. Get over it.

[Guest]

since we all know politicians do try to please the voting block that elected them, how about a possibility that he is responding to what he hears from his constituency and it just so happens some of you are not his supporters hence the negative dialogue.

Remember that the health care legislation was opposed by a majority of Americans when being proposed, the majority was clearly against it during the 2010 elections and what you are seeing is politicians following the wishes of the majority.

btk

What I don't understand is why we can't have a conversation, a real discussion about the law? It seems like when I ask someone who is jumping up and down, why they are so happy, I get screamed at and called a liar and demands that I take a side.

True story. On a very liberal/much younger (no offense guys, you know I'm 50. I'm talking 20 and 30 year olds as a majority, very liberal - with on SSDI, working at a college/university or studying in one type people.) Very intellectual. People with advanced degrees. You have to argue using empirical evidence type discussions.

A fellow who is very well respected on the forum said, "I am very happy for the 30 million Americans.

"I am very happy for the hundreds of thousands of unborn babies of previously uninsured pregnant mothers, who now get the same prenatal care without having to rely on charity. I foresee infant mortality rates in the US catch up with West European standards."

I responded, "...what do you mean? Can you explain that a little more? In the US, we already have programs for women and infants. Pregnant women and children do get medical care on a sliding scale – regardless or income levels. All women, regardless of income, get OB/GYN care on a sliding scale – regardless of income. Most localities provide dental care for children in the same manner through the state health departments."

For two straight days on that forum, no one would answer my question. I was called a liar and belittled in ways that...Let's just say, I'd never talk to another human like that.

I asked about care for some friends of mine who live in Florida and can't afford insurance for their spouses. At this time in their lives, even the $270 monthly payment is more than they want to pay for the care she would receive with the state insurance pool thing. Anyway. I think it is a sad day in America when you are asking questions and trying to understand something and help someone, you are ridiculed.

Responses like Coralway's, "Get over it. Get on with your life," really amaze me. Are you serious talking like that to Bucco. He is a decent person who deserves respect @coralway. Why do you have to post something like that instead of addressing what Bucco posted?

[Guest]

What I don't understand is why we can't have a conversation, a real discussion about the law? It seems like when I ask someone who is jumping up and down, why they are so happy, I get screamed at and called a liar and demands that I take a side.

True story. On a very liberal/much younger (no offense guys, you know I'm 50. I'm talking 20 and 30 year olds as a majority, very liberal - with on SSDI, working at a college/university or studying in one type people.) Very intellectual. People with advanced degrees. You have to argue using empirical evidence type discussions.

A fellow who is very well respected on the forum said, "I am very happy for the 30 million Americans.

"I am very happy for the hundreds of thousands of unborn babies of previously uninsured pregnant mothers, who now get the same prenatal care without having to rely on charity. I foresee infant mortality rates in the US catch up with West European standards."

I responded, "...what do you mean? Can you explain that a little more? In the US, we already have programs for women and infants. Pregnant women and children do get medical care on a sliding scale – regardless or income levels. All women, regardless of income, get OB/GYN care on a sliding scale – regardless of income. Most localities provide dental care for children in the same manner through the state health departments."

For two straight days on that forum, no one would answer my question. I was called a liar and belittled in ways that...Let's just say, I'd never talk to another human like that.

I asked about care for some friends of mine who live in Florida and can't afford insurance for their spouses. At this time in their lives, even the $270 monthly payment is more than they want to pay for the care she would receive with the state insurance pool thing. Anyway. I think it is a sad day in America when you are asking questions and trying to understand something and help someone, you are ridiculed.

Responses like Coralway's, "Get over it. Get on with your life," really amaze me. Are you serious talking like that to Bucco. He is a decent person who deserves respect @coralway. Why do you have to post something like that instead of addressing what Bucco posted?






Your pal Bucco's post says the President lies. I show Bucco the same level of respect he shows our President !!!!!!

[Guest]

Your pal Bucco's post says the President lies. I show Bucco the same level of respect he shows our President !!!!!!

Instead of your typical remarks...why don't you actually address the topic and answer some of the questions posed.

If you respect Mr. Obama as much as you say you do, try disputing or debating others views rather than belittle them.:undecided:

[Guest]

That's right. Show us where it says the POTUS lied and show us evidence that he didn't. That is a discussion. Please, I'm just asking for respect and perhaps we can learn something from each other.

[Guest]

The subject of this thread - at least as far as I can tell - is "just so we know who got us here".

ACA was passed by the US Congress, it was signed into law by The President of the United States, and it was upheld by The US Supreme Court.

That's how we got here.

[Guest]

The Affordable Care Act is the law of the land. It is 100% legal and constitutional.

Get over it. Move on with your life.

The Supreme Court decided that the Affordable Care Act IS constitutional. Get over it.

Lots of people did not think Roe v. Wade was a good decision - but it is the law of the land. Get over it.

if the aca is the law of the land, legal, and constitutional please explain why so many unions/businesses have received an exemption from having to participate in it. thank you.

[Guest]

if the aca is the law of the land, legal, and constitutional please explain why so many unions/businesses have received an exemption from having to participate in it. thank you.





Here ya go. Thought everyone was aware of this by now. This "exemption" nonsense was debunked 2 years ago. Don't believe everything you hear on Faux News.

Thank you.


http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/01/27/right-wing-media-revive-myth-that-health-care-w/175662

[Guest]

Your pal Bucco's post says the President lies. I show Bucco the same level of respect he shows our President !!!!!!

I show our President the same amount of respect you showed President Bush.

[Guest]

Here ya go. Thought everyone was aware of this by now. This "exemption" nonsense was debunked 2 years ago. Don't believe everything you hear on Faux News.

Thank you.


Right-Wing Media Revive Myth That Health Care Waivers Are Political Favors | Research | Media Matters for America (http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/01/27/right-wing-media-revive-myth-that-health-care-w/175662)

I don't believe anything I read from Media Matters, the most virulent left wing organization in the history of the United States.

[Guest]

I don't believe anything I read from Media Matters, the most virulent left wing organization in the history of the United States.

That's the right (far, far right) way to think, Richie. Keeping an open mind is definitely what the wubers are not about.

[Guest]

Here ya go. Thought everyone was aware of this by now. This "exemption" nonsense was debunked 2 years ago. Don't believe everything you hear on Faux News.

Thank you.


Right-Wing Media Revive Myth That Health Care Waivers Are Political Favors | Research | Media Matters for America (http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/01/27/right-wing-media-revive-myth-that-health-care-w/175662)

The article doesn't say there are no waivers, just that they aren't given as political favors. The waivers are not a myth.

[Guest]

I show our President the same amount of respect you showed President Bush.

I just noticed that my name was mentioned here...

1. I welcome that poster to at anytime challenge anything or anytime I have mentioned the President lying and show how it is not FACTUAL or ACTUAL.

2. I welcome that poster to stop slandering anyone and everyone who seems to oppose whomever she supports, from the President to the Governor. Posts such as this one recently...

"Had we listened to Scotty in '08, the old guy would be POTUS now, and The Wasilla Quitta would be in charge of the Senate. "

are typical of the political conversation from that source using my name and offering no respect is a bit.....cannot think of a word strong enough.

PLEASE anytime you have a rebutt feel free but leave the name calling wherever you picked it up !

[Guest]

The article doesn't say there are no waivers, just that they aren't given as political favors. The waivers are not a myth.

Here ya go. Thought everyone was aware of this by now. This "exemption" nonsense was debunked 2 years ago. Don't believe everything you hear on Faux News.

Thank you.


Right-Wing Media Revive Myth That Health Care Waivers Are Political Favors | Research | Media Matters for America (http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/01/27/right-wing-media-revive-myth-that-health-care-w/175662)

phew! thanx for that note, bk - thought i had missed something. coralway's referred website seems to be just as you say...hasn't shown me that there aren't any waivers to participation.

gonna go check some chris matthews comments - i think that's where i heard waivers mentioned.

[Guest]

phew! thanx for that note, bk - thought i had missed something. coralway's referred website seems to be just as you say...hasn't shown me that there aren't any waivers to participation.

gonna go check some chris matthews comments - i think that's where i heard waivers mentioned.

When you find those Chris Matthews' comments, could you please post a link to the video. I would be very interested to hear what Matthews had to say regarding waivers. Thanks

[Guest]

phew! thanx for that note, bk - thought i had missed something. coralway's referred website seems to be just as you say...hasn't shown me that there aren't any waivers to participation.

gonna go check some chris matthews comments - i think that's where i heard waivers mentioned.

Thus far there have been between 1200 and 1300 PLUS waivers given.

This from Jan 2012

"Roughly 1,200 companies received waivers from part of the healthcare reform law, the Health and Human Services Department (HHS) said Friday."

And the Final Number of ‘Obamacare’ Waivers is… | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/how-many-businesses-are-exempt-the-final-number-of-obamacare-waivers-is-in/)

There was a report of over 1300 reported even earlier so who knows...they do not give that info out publicly any longer ????

But the political claim came from stuff like this...

Labor unions continued to receive the overwhelming majority of waivers from the president’s health care reform law since the Obama administration tightened application rules last summer.

Documents released in a classic Friday afternoon news dump show that labor unions representing 543,812 workers received waivers from President Barack Obama‘s signature legislation since June 17, 2011.

By contrast, private employers with a total of 69,813 employees, many of whom work for small businesses, were granted waivers.

The Department of Health and Human Services revised the rules governing applications for health reform waivers June 17, 2011, amid a steady stream of controversial news reports, including The Daily Caller’s story that nearly 20 percent of last May’s waivers went to businesses in House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi’s district in California.

Read more: Labor unions primary recipients of Obamacare waivers | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/06/labor-unions-primary-recipients-of-obamacare-waivers/#ixzz1zVQe7H89)


So again the transparency is gone and we do not know

The other reason for the political issue being raised is that before the door closed on information, I think about 300 in on month went to Pelosi's district in SF.

And who knows what the number is...this from Politico over a year ago..

"The number of temporary healthcare reform waivers granted by the Obama administration to organizations climbed to more than 1,000, according to new numbers disclosed by the Department of Health and Human Services.

HHS posted 126 new waivers on Friday, bringing the total to 1,040 organizations that have been granted a one-year exemption from a new coverage requirement included in the healthcare reform law enacted almost a year ago. Waivers have become a hot-button issue for Republicans, eager to expose any vulnerabilities in the reform law."

Number of healthcare reform law waivers climbs above 1,000 - The Hill's Healthwatch (http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/147715-number-of-healthcare-reform-law-waivers-climbs-above-1000)

[Guest]

I just noticed that my name was mentioned here...

1. I welcome that poster to at anytime challenge anything or anytime I have mentioned the President lying and show how it is not FACTUAL or ACTUAL.

2. I welcome that poster to stop slandering anyone and everyone who seems to oppose whomever she supports, from the President to the Governor. Posts such as this one recently...

"Had we listened to Scotty in '08, the old guy would be POTUS now, and The Wasilla Quitta would be in charge of the Senate. "

are typical of the political conversation from that source using my name and offering no respect is a bit.....cannot think of a word strong enough.

PLEASE anytime you have a rebutt feel free but leave the name calling wherever you picked it up !

I'll give you credit for working hard Bucco, though a little obsessive in my opinion, but man, are you thin-skinned. The stuff that is discussed is clearly important, but this forum is really not.

[Guest]

I'll give you credit for working hard Bucco, though a little obsessive in my opinion, but man, are you thin-skinned. The stuff that is discussed is clearly important, but this forum is really not.

I certainly don't won't to speak for Bucco, but it isn't that difficult to read and stay informed. The point of the political forum is to discuss politics. It is very frustrating when people just repeat sound bites or parrot rhetoric and they don't even pretend to research, read or learn for themselves or to help others see their points of view, it is frustrating.

I honestly mean no disrespect, @ewissenbach, but I've seen a couple of comments you've made about the political forum. I'd love to see you participate and add your knowledge, because I have a feeling you are very smart. But with all due respect, it is optional. You can opt out if you aren't interested.

When everyone is respectful, uses a little bit of commonsense and questions without being a bully, political is very educational and a real enjoyable experience.

[Guest]

When you find those Chris Matthews' comments, could you please post a link to the video. I would be very interested to hear what Matthews had to say regarding waivers. Thanks

will do - but it takes a lot of time to look this stuff up...but will share when i find what i think i'm looking for. not even sure it was matthews aany more
but am pretty sure it was on one of the talking bobblehead sunday shows! ;)

[Guest]

bucco - thanx for the back-up. do believe i heard the waiver topic mentioned on some sunday talk show and am making myself dizzy searching for it!

[Guest]

I certainly don't won't to speak for Bucco, but it isn't that difficult to read and stay informed. The point of the political forum is to discuss politics. It is very frustrating when people just repeat sound bites or parrot rhetoric and they don't even pretend to research, read or learn for themselves or to help others see their points of view, it is frustrating.

I honestly mean no disrespect, @ewissenbach, but I've seen a couple of comments you've made about the political forum. I'd love to see you participate and add your knowledge, because I have a feeling you are very smart. But with all due respect, it is optional. You can opt out if you aren't interested.

When everyone is respectful, uses a little bit of commonsense and questions without being a bully, political is very educational and a real enjoyable experience.

You are mostly correct BK, it should be no concern of mine how much time Bucco, or anyone else spends on the forum, or how seriously they take it. The thing that triggered my earlier response is that Bucco, in particular seems to take things so personally and that is probably why he gets so defensive. I look at a board like this as a diversion - something to pass time and share some opinions, and read others, but not to be a seriouis part of framing my political ideology. Most people who post here seem to be pretty well in their comfort zone as far as political affiliation and philosophy, and not likely to be swayed by information to the contrary. It is, in my mind, supposed to be a place to share opinions, and not a catalog of links or copy and paste from political blogs and news sources. Again, that is just my opinion, and I am usually not shy about sharing it. I agree with your last statement for the most part, but bullying, or as I call it, being an internet tough guy, usually elicits a response in-kind.

[Guest]

I'll make a pact with you, if you are willing. If you ever see me bully someone, call me out on it please. I'll do the same for you. We are all adults here (at least I like to imagine we are, who knows in Internet-land). There is no need to belittle or bully to get your point across. But you are right, it turns into a tit for a tat. I think Bucco got his belly full of that kind of behavior a few years back and just comes out fighting now whenever he feels threatened. He was kicked pretty hard. I have learned many things here in the past from people on the left, right and in the middle. The forum has certainly changed though.

I don't know you and I don't know if you were here before political was an opt-in forum or not. I joined just about the time the previous owners changed political to a separate forum you had to join. It was an alternative to doing away with political. It was pretty nasty. I would hate to see that happen again.

[Guest]

I'll give you credit for working hard Bucco, though a little obsessive in my opinion, but man, are you thin-skinned. The stuff that is discussed is clearly important, but this forum is really not.

Aren't you the guy who's always kind of kvetching about how uncivil it all is on this forum??

Now when Bucco is singing your song about one of your compatriots you accuse him of being thin skinned.

You kill me.