Need a Canadians View

[rubicon]

An article taken from the "Money" Section of the Sun Sentinel June 24, 2012 reports that some 86,000 Canadians most from Montreal are moving to South Florida and Florida in general permanently to avoid taxes. The article reported that a Canadian making in excess of $80,200 was now subject to 46% in taxes. Apparently in the Quebec Province the sales tax exceeds 15% A financial planner who helps Canadian transplants says you can't go 10 feet down Hollywood Beach without hearing a french accent. The article also concluded that the 86,000 number would be more than doubled if you consider properties purchased through corporations, trust or partnerships.

I would like to hear from Canadians their point of view concerning this article its accuracy, causes, etc. Finally given that Canadians are required to live in Canada for six monts of the year in order to stay qualified for their national health care how this qualification is affected?

[Barefoot]

An article taken from the "Money" Section of the Sun Sentinel June 24, 2012 reports that some 86,000 Canadians most from Montreal are moving to South Florida and Florida in general permanently to avoid taxes. The article reported that a Canadian making in excess of $80,200 was now subject to 46% in taxes. Apparently in the Quebec Province the sales tax exceeds 15% A financial planner who helps Canadian transplants says you can't go 10 feet down Hollywood Beach without hearing a french accent. The article also concluded that the 86,000 number would be more than doubled if you consider properties purchased through corporations, trust or partnerships.

I would like to hear from Canadians their point of view concerning this article its accuracy, causes, etc. Finally given that Canadians are required to live in Canada for six monts of the year in order to stay qualified for their national health care how this qualification is affected?

A bit of clarification Rubicon. Firstly, your statement that Canadians must live in Canada for six months of the year to qualify for national health care is not quite correct. Each province has it's own rules. For instance, in Ontario, we have OHIP, which requires that you can be out of the province for seven months and still qualify for provincial health care. Some provinces allow you to travel for eight months, and others, six months.

Secondly, Canadians cannot just decide to live and work in the US. They must go through a qualification process and obtain a work permit, and demonstrate they possess an essential skill. I had a Green Card many years ago, and it wasn't an easy process.

There is currently no such thing as a Retiree Visa. While we would love to stay longer in Florida where we own a home, currently the US Government dictates that we are only allowed to stay in the US for a maximum of 182 days in a calendar year. We are deemed "resident aliens". Don't get me wrong, we're grateful for 182 days!

[duffysmom]

:wave:A bit of clarification Rubicon. Firstly, your statement that Canadians must live in Canada for six months of the year to qualify for national health care is not quite correct. Each province has it's own rules. For instance, in Ontario, we have OHIP, which requires that you can be out of the province for seven months and still qualify for provincial health care. Some provinces allow you to travel for eight months, and others, six months.

Secondly, Canadians cannot just decide to live and work in the US. They must go through a qualification process and obtain a work permit, and demonstrate they possess an essential skill. I had a Green Card many years ago, and it wasn't an easy process.

There is currently no such thing as a Retiree Visa. While we would love to stay longer in Florida where we own a home, currently the US Government dictates that we are only allowed to stay in the US for a maximum of 182 days in a calendar year. We are deemed "resident aliens". Don't get me wrong, we're grateful for 182 days!

And we're grateful that you are here 182 days a year.:wave:

[Barefoot]

:wave:

And we're grateful that you are here 182 days a year.:wave:

Thanks DM. The best thing about TV and TOTV is the wonderful people we've met. And we love escaping the Canadian winters, which we once enjoyed. We just wish we could stay longer! You Americans are lucky to have such a grand choice of sunny places to live!

Rubicon, honestly, I find it hard to believe reports of 86,000 Canadians moving to Florida to avoid taxes. I'm sure there are lots of Canadians who would like to move to the US, but it's not easy at all to get a US Work Visa. It's true that we have high taxes, and a lot of social programs. And of course, "free" health care means higher tax rates! We find Florida delightfully inexpensive.

[dkrhardy]

Barefoot - I am not an expert, and the way the USA handles Canadian citizens MIGHT be different, but my DW (Darling Wife) is a Japanese citizen with a green card, and she lives here 24/7. She is referred to as a resident alien. So, I wonder, what is the difference? Might be that the green card, which is not green, allows a resident alien to live here without many restrictions?
Don & Kaz

[Barefoot]

Barefoot - I am not an expert, and the way the USA handles Canadian citizens MIGHT be different, but my DW (Darling Wife) is a Japanese citizen with a green card, and she lives here 24/7. She is referred to as a resident alien. So, I wonder, what is the difference? Might be that the green card, which is not green, allows a resident alien to live here without many restrictions?
Don & Kaz

If you are a US Citizen married to a Japanese Citizen, then for sure different rules apply for your DW. I'd think she would be fast tracked for a Green Card and for Citizenship. A green card allows the holder to live and work in the US for five years, at least that was the criteria when I had a card.

If I were lucky enough to marry a US Citizen, I would be fast tracked for Citizenship. But so far, Fireboy has said no to that idea.

[rubicon]

Thanks DM. The best thing about TV and TOTV is the wonderful people we've met. And we love escaping the Canadian winters, which we once enjoyed. We just wish we could stay longer! You Americans are lucky to have such a grand choice of sunny places to live!

Rubicon, honestly, I find it hard to believe reports of 86,000 Canadians moving to Florida to avoid taxes. I'm sure there are lots of Canadians who would like to move to the US, but it's not easy at all to get a US Work Visa. It's true that we have high taxes, and a lot of social programs. And of course, "free" health care means higher tax rates! We find Florida delightfully inexpensive.

Barefoot: I appeciate your posts. Please understand that I am only re-stating information provided in this article. According to the Sun Sentinel the 86,000 Canadians came to florida to buy a home and retire. The article contiued to explain that probably double that amount is utilizing trust corporation or partnerships to make the transfer.

I posted it because of the health care issue irrespective of the time limiations 6,7,8,9 months. The article left me with the thought that these folks abandoned their health care to move here because overall it was more economical to move here and purchased health care here. Most important the article did used the word "permanent" when describing the move to Florida.

Every Canadian i met in TV told me they had to return to Canada within 6 months, as did a woman I met from Wales.

[ilovetv]

How true this is, and how often U.S. citizens think the opposite:

"And of course, "free" health care means higher tax rates! We find Florida delightfully inexpensive." (By Barefoot from Canada, quoted above)


As the old saying goes: "You can't have your cake and eat it, too."

[dkrhardy]

Fast tracked? Wow, it was a long and painful experience for us! What a huge pile of this and that paperwork we had to do! If that was fast, I sure do pity the folks taking the longer route!


If I were lucky enough to marry a US Citizen, I would be fast tracked for Citizenship. But so far, Fireboy has said no to that idea.
Today 12:26 PM
?? :confused: Sorry, we are new on this forum and don't know much about folks yet! :shrug:

Don & Kaz

[Barefoot]

Fast tracked? Wow, it was a long and painful experience for us! What a huge pile of this and that paperwork we had to do! If that was fast, I sure do pity the folks taking the longer route!
Don & Kaz

I've heard it is a slow process, even for someone married to a US Citizen. But there is another process if you're not married to a US Citizen which is even longer and more painful. Back when i got a Green Card, I had to have a guarantor, and a job waiting for me.

Here is something I find fascinating. The young girl in TV that does my nails is from Viet Nam. She speaks some english, not much. When I ask her if Viet Namese people have any difficulty immigrating, she says, not at all. When she arrived, she started looking for work, she didn't have a job waiting.

[ilovetv]

I've heard it is a slow process, even for someone married to a US Citizen. But there is another process if you're not married to a US Citizen which is even longer and more painful. Back when i got a Green Card, I had to have a guarantor, and a job waiting for me.

Here is something I find fascinating. The young girl in TV that does my nails is from Viet Nam. She speaks some english, not much. When I ask her if Viet Namese people have any difficulty immigrating, she says, not at all. When she arrived, she started looking for work, she didn't have a job waiting.

To get a Green Card, an immigrant still has to have much in place as you did and it is a long, long, expensive process (for those who apply legally rather than buying the phony papers as so many coming over our southwest border do).

For the Vietnamese, there were and probably still are special provisions for refugees immigrating legally, as there are for Cuban nationals who are able to get here and touch one foot down on American soil (Cuban Adjustment Act of 1966).....which though legal, still takes a long time to process.

Green Card Through the Indochinese Parole Adjustment Act
USCIS - Green Card Through the Indochinese Parole Adjustment Act (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=76ba3a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=76ba3a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD)

[Barefoot]

For the Vietnamese, there were and probably still are special provisions for refugees immigrating legally, as there are for Cuban nationals who are able to get here and touch one foot down on American soil (Cuban Adjustment Act of 1966).....which though legal, still takes a long time to process.

Green Card Through the Indochinese Parole Adjustment Act
USCIS - Green Card Through the Indochinese Parole Adjustment Act (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=76ba3a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=76ba3a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD)

Thanks for this information, how interesting, now I understand. TOTV is a wonderful website, always new things to learn.

[tkret]

Canucks visit our country .... bring plenty of money to help our economy .... carry their own medical insurance .... reside peacefully alongside of us .... respect our laws and way of life ... don't rush over to the HHS office to sign up for monthly assistance .... don't ask to educate their kids ... and our Government demands that they vacate in 6 months or less .... and, oh by the way, please come back again and bring more cash. The Canucks may have loonies and toonies for a couple of their coins, but I think it's we who are the REAL "loonies" for treating our very best neighbors like this.

[douga]

So true...My wife and I spend 6 months in The Villages and spend in excess of $20,000 each year and when we return home in April, the first thing we do is pay our income tax for the previous year.

My income tax is well below 40% and our goods and services tax (HST) is 13% on everything we do or buy...I would not trade our medical system for lower taxes no matter what some of the faults or shortcomings are that we face with our system.

Canadians cannot avoid income tax just by living in the USA for 6 months and in fact if we were to overstay our 182 days we would be subject to tax on our worldwide income for BOTH countries.

We must also fill our an 8840 form and send it to the IRS in Austin if our total number of days total more that 180 (all the days this year, plus 1/3 of last years days plus 1/6 of the days two years ago). This allows us a CLOSER CONNECTION to Canada so that we continue to pay only Canadian taxes.

Just a small price to pay in order to enjoy the fine people in The Villages.

Well said Tkret..

[tkret]

We must also fill our an 8840 form and send it to the IRS in Austin if our total number of days total more that 180 (all the days this year, plus 1/3 of last years days plus 1/6 of the days two years ago). This allows us a CLOSER CONNECTION to Canada so that we continue to pay only Canadian taxes.

Just a small price to pay in order to enjoy the fine people in The Villages.

..
Douga .......... Thank you and your fellow Canadians for staying with us and making The Villages an EVEN FRIENDLIER place. When you leave each Spring it seems a little colder here even though the thermometer indicates otherwise.
.
...... and I'm sure you may enjoy this story.........
Blessed Canada

On the sixth day God turned to the Archangel Gabriel and said:

"Today I am going to create a land called Canada. It will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It shall have tall majestic mountains full of mountain goats, and eagles, beautiful sparkling lakes bountiful with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs over-looking sandy beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon."

God continued, "I shall make the land rich in resources so as to make the inhabitants prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians, and they shall be known as the most friendly people on the earth."

"But Lord," asked Gabriel "don't you think you are being too generous to these Canadians?"

"Not really," replied God "just wait and see the winters I am going to give them."

[Barefoot]

Canucks visit our country .... bring plenty of money to help our economy .... carry their own medical insurance .... reside peacefully alongside of us .... respect our laws and way of life ... don't rush over to the HHS office to sign up for monthly assistance .... don't ask to educate their kids ... and our Government demands that they vacate in 6 months or less .... and, oh by the way, please come back again and bring more cash. The Canucks may have loonies and toonies for a couple of their coins, but I think it's we who are the REAL "loonies" for treating our very best neighbors like this.

Thanks tkret, you are a real sweetheart. :mademyday:

[dkrhardy]

All true!

Barefoot - how close do they watch that 182 days?

Don & Kaz

[golf2140]

A bit of clarification Rubicon. Firstly, your statement that Canadians must live in Canada for six months of the year to qualify for national health care is not quite correct. Each province has it's own rules. For instance, in Ontario, we have OHIP, which requires that you can be out of the province for seven months and still qualify for provincial health care. Some provinces allow you to travel for eight months, and others, six months.

Secondly, Canadians cannot just decide to live and work in the US. They must go through a qualification process and obtain a work permit, and demonstrate they possess an essential skill. I had a Green Card many years ago, and it wasn't an easy process.

There is currently no such thing as a Retiree Visa. While we would love to stay longer in Florida where we own a home, currently the US Government dictates that we are only allowed to stay in the US for a maximum of 182 days in a calendar year. We are deemed "resident aliens". Don't get me wrong, we're grateful for 182 days!

Barefoot,

Are the tax rates quoted correct!!!

[Barefoot]

Barefoot,

Are the tax rates quoted correct!!!

Here is a government link which lists income tax rates.
What are the income tax rates in Canada? (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html)

The goods and services rate varies by province. The Ontario HST rate is now 13%.

No question about it ... There is a huge cost to maintaining Canada's social programs, and a health-care system that is government funded.

[jane032657]

I am fortunate to be a dual citizen, American born, took out my Canadian citizenship to run for politics in BC, and then was allowed to be dual when I moved back to the US in December 2002. I am lucky as are my children who are all dual citizens. When I lived in BC, my tax rate was about 39%. Yes it was high, but my kids had fabulous medical coverage; they went to university in BC and I was able to put all three through university myself as it is much less expensive than university in the United States and a first class educational system. I will receive Canadian Pension of some amount for the 26 years I lived in British Columbia and worked. I also was the Executive Director of a myriad of large non profit organizations in BC and was always grateful to see my provincial and federal tax dollars at work supporting social programs. I never complained about my taxes and I do not complain in the US either. I feel that both countries provide a lot of programs, services, supports and infrastructure and the money does not fall from the trees. Do I think we could shuffle how money is spent? Yes, but we would still need taxes to support whatever programs, services and needs there are that government provides subsidizes. Just my opinion, no critique of anyone or any beliefs of anyone. Just my experience and good fortune to be a citizen of both Canada and the US and soon The Villlages. How lucky can one be in life?

[rubicon]

The sun sEntinel article talk about people who live in Quebec province and listed their tax at 43. 6%?????

[Barefoot]

Barefoot - how close do they watch that 182 days? Don & Kaz

Good question! I have no idea. But they do track Canadians' length of stay in the US. We show passports at border crossings.

Here is the scary part. Any time we cross into the US, the US Border Crossing Agent can decide the length of time we're allowed to stay in the US. It is at their absolute discretion. 182 days would be the maximum we'd be allowed. I've known Canadians who were told they could only stay 60 or 90 days.

If we were to stay longer than 182 days, and we were somehow "flagged" in the system, the next time we attempted to enter the US, we could be refused, for a year or two, or more. And then if we went to a different border crossing and tried to enter after being refused, we could be thrown in jail.

As Resident Aliens, Canadians are required to file a form each year with the US IRS stating the number of days we've spent in the US (maximum of 182). I think that lying to the IRS would have fairly serious consequences.

So we don't abuse the system or take any chances. And we bite our nails every Fall until we're safely in the US and headed for The Bubble. And we are extremely nice to the US Border Agents.

[hotrodgirl]

Jane, I thank you for your observations and feel you put your heart out there on the line! I appreciate your candor and am happy to have our North American neighbors join us here in the states and especially in TV! I lived abroad for a couple of years in Europe and was very well accepted and able to access medical care, education,etc. And it is a wonderful way to learn about other cultures and other ways of life. I am so grateful for that time I spent abroad as it confirmed my thirst of knowledge and love of my own country. You are indeed blessed to be able to carry dual citizenship!

[CFrance]

Canucks visit our country .... bring plenty of money to help our economy .... carry their own medical insurance .... reside peacefully alongside of us .... respect our laws and way of life ... don't rush over to the HHS office to sign up for monthly assistance .... don't ask to educate their kids ... and our Government demands that they vacate in 6 months or less .... and, oh by the way, please come back again and bring more cash. The Canucks may have loonies and toonies for a couple of their coins, but I think it's we who are the REAL "loonies" for treating our very best neighbors like this.

Another thought, Bare... My husband worked for a trucking and logistics company which contracted to do business in Canada at one point. His first question to the Canadian colleagues was, How can we train our people to honor their relationship with your people? Their reply was, If they will realize that we are Canadians and not assume we are just Americans north of the border... We have our own history, traditions, society. A very good point, imo. Sometimes we Americans forget that. We're not the only ones here.

[mainlander]

Perhaps this is not the correct thread for my query, but I'll attempt it.
Can anyone(Canadian resident) shed some light on income derived from renting your TV home for Jan/Feb/Mar each year. Any thoughts on how it is treated both here and at home? Thanks... Randall

[Barefoot]

Can anyone(Canadian resident) shed some light on income derived from renting your TV home for Jan/Feb/Mar each year. Any thoughts on how it is treated both here and at home? Thanks... Randall

You need to pay Canadian tax on any earned income, no matter where in the world it is earned. Your US income from renting your home may well be taxable in the US as well. Depends on how much income you make in the US. If you pay tax in the US, you may be able to reduce the tax you pay in Canada by that amount ... that's a question for an accountant.

I assume you file a "Closer Connection Form" with the USA IRS every year. On that form they specifically ask about income earned in the US. It is one way they determine your resident alien status.

One reason we never rent out our US home is that we want to keep a low profile, and just hop quietly over the border for our six months in Paradise every year. We treasure our resident alien status. As a Canadian, we don't have a right to stay in the US for six months every year, it's a privilege.

[CaptJohn]

I assume you file a "Closer Connection Form" with the USA IRS every year. On that form they specifically ask about income earned in the US. It is one way they determine your resident alien status.



I'm not sure in this particular instance but also check out the difference between 'earned income' and 'investment income' or other types. The way it's categorized may affect how or whether it has to be reported. An accountant that specializes in IRS is probably necessary to be sure.

[mainlander]

Thanks Barefoot and Capt. I appreciate your input. I would have thought that this subject would have been discussed many times, perhaps in past posts (I'll try again to tract them down, if they exist). Any other comments would be appreciated, Thanks again.

[Barefoot]

Thanks Barefoot and Capt. I appreciate your input. I would have thought that this subject would have been discussed many times, perhaps in past posts (I'll try again to tract them down, if they exist). Any other comments would be appreciated, Thanks again.

You are welcome Mainlander. But it's such a specialized area, that you really need to ask a tax accountant, and not rely on member information (including mine!) There are some good books at amazon.ca on all aspects of Canadian investments in the USA.