Civil Marriage

[Guest]

I would like to ask you what you believe is the difference between a civil marriage ceremony of two straight people (man and woman) and a civil union ceremony between two gay people? Since both have the same intent then both are marriages, aren't they?

Shouldn't both be afforded the exact same legal rights in the unions?

Leave religion out of the equation. That would be up to an individual church to decide if they will do a religious ceremony for gay couples.

[Guest]

I would like to ask you what you believe is the difference between a civil marriage ceremony of two straight people (man and woman) and a civil union ceremony between two gay people? Since both have the same intent then both are marriages, aren't they?

Shouldn't both be afforded the exact same legal rights in the unions?

Leave religion out of the equation. That would be up to an individual church to decide if they will do a religious ceremony for gay couples.

No they are not the same. When you differentiate the two as one being a marriage and the other is something else, then they are different. Either everyone gets a marriage or everyone gets a civil union. Do you expect a wedding proposal to be "will you union me?" When two people love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together they get married not unioned. Any attempt to relegate gay marriages to some other term than marriage gives that relationship a second class status and is IMO insulting. And my opinion has nothing to do with religion and I would not compel religious institutions to perform religious rites if it objects. How do you react to the option to have only the civil authority performs marriages and churches may provide religious unions (but we don't call them marriages). Or how about we let all of the ceremonies whether civil or non-secular whether straight or gay, whether same race or interracial (that was illegal in most of the US until my lifetime) ALL of them be marriages and wish the couple happiness.

[Guest]

I would like to ask you what you believe is the difference between a civil marriage ceremony of two straight people (man and woman) and a civil union ceremony between two gay people? Since both have the same intent then both are marriages, aren't they?

Shouldn't both be afforded the exact same legal rights in the unions?

Leave religion out of the equation. That would be up to an individual church to decide if they will do a religious ceremony for gay couples.

You are spot on correct:

Non-supporters are OK with a rich Man and Woman having an elaborate ceremony in a church with the woman wearing all white, BUT ONLY after setting up separate bank accounts and signing a prenuptial agreement for when they divorce. OH YEA, that is OK with God, but not two people in love that want to spend the rest of their life together. If the bible had as many amendments as the constitution, then things would flow better today, but so many hang on to words jotted down thousands of years ago.

[Guest]

I would like to ask you what you believe is the difference between a civil marriage ceremony of two straight people (man and woman) and a civil union ceremony between two gay people? Since both have the same intent then both are marriages, aren't they?

Shouldn't both be afforded the exact same legal rights in the unions?

Leave religion out of the equation. That would be up to an individual church to decide if they will do a religious ceremony for gay couples.

Because it's against the Word of God (Bible)

[Guest]

Because it's against the Word of God (Bible)

Which God. The United States has dozens of God's Not all have the same rule. I assume you don't expect rules from the king James bible to be the one and only. America is diverse in cultures and religions and all have rules.

[Guest]

Which God. The United States has dozens of God's Not all have the same rule. I assume you don't expect rules from the king James bible to be the one and only. America is diverse in cultures and religions and all have rules.

The One and Only True God The Father of Jesus Christ who came to earth to save all of mankind from their sins. (you're talking about the false god's) Read the what the Bible says re; homosexuality. Lev.18:22-24 , Lev.20:13, Lev.22:18,24

[Guest]

The One and Only True God The Father of Jesus Christ who came to earth to save all of mankind from their sins. (you're talking about the false god's) Read the what the Bible says re; homosexuality. Lev.18:22-24 , Lev.20:13, Lev.22:18,24

That's the God of the Old Testament. These laws were probably written by men in the Jewish society around 2000-1500 B.C. Book of Leviticus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Leviticus)

That is not the God you find in the New Testament except in areas other than the Gospels.

It is hard to determine who wrote what in Holy Bible.

[Guest]

And God love you for your faith and dedication. However, we the people of the United States of America are of different beliefs and our country defends the rights of everyone, and not just the King James VERSION of GOD. If there is one God that has no problem with Homosexuals, then in American they should have the right to GET MARRIED.

You do understand that other faiths believe that your God is a false God just as you do about theirs. It would be nice and simple if you were right, but that is very speculative.

[Guest]

That's the God of the Old Testament. These laws were probably written by men in the Jewish society around 2000-1500 B.C. Book of Leviticus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Leviticus)

That is not the God you find in the New Testament except in areas other than the Gospels.

It is hard to determine who wrote what in Holy Bible.

Read in the New Testament' Matt.19:4 and Rom.1:26,27. God does NOT change, He's the same for all time in the Old & New Testament. I challenge you to pray and ask Him about the truth of His Holy Word :-)

[Guest]

Equal Marriage NOW: Civil Marriage v. Civil Unions (http://www.now.org/issues/marriage/marriage_unions.html)

Looks like the big problem is which states will recognize the rights and duties of civil marriages against all the states which recognize civil unions.

[Guest]

I really do have a discomfort level about discussing this issue but then I have come to realize that is just what the Gay Nation and its supporters are counting on as a form of intimidation. They are also counting on the fact that Americans are compassionate people. I submit one can be both compassionate but not confuse the heart with sound logical thinking. Furthermore a personal disclosure before I begin. My opinion is not based on any religious beliefs.

This continuing debate about marriage/civil unions is a red herring. This debate is really about a small segment of our society demanding that this society legitimize and approve of their sexual preference and hence their lifestyle.

In every cultural since the beginning of time marriage has been defined as a relationship between a man and woman. Further and without any religious overtones but only in a historical context the Bible refers to Adam and Eve and not to Adam and Evan. Further again from a historical viewpoint, meaning that the bible is an accounting of men/women's thinking (via word of mouth) through the centuries condemns men laying with men...an abomination is the wording.

The Gay Nation would mask this issue as a civil rights movement. I disagree. Lawyers are very gifted and I am certain agreements can be struck to ensure same sex partners being afforded rights of surviorship, etc without the need for specific a marriage or civil union ceremony.

Because one disagrees with same sex marriage/civil unions and especially disagrees with their sexual preference doesn't mean they are bigots but count on that tactic to silence opponents. And on a personal note I expect some poster will accuse me of bigotry after I submit this post

The DSM classifies for example a "foot fetish" as abnormal (mental disorder) and also a sexual addiction. Yet in the 1980's homosexuality was striken from this manual with little explanation which usually means because of political pressure.

So adamant are the extremist in this gay movement that young children are being indoctrinated in schools all over the country to see homosexuality as normal and an accepted lifestyle. If these extremist had their way soon they will demand it be viewed as a preferred lifestyle. If you think me wrong pay attention to how Hollywood movies/television is spinning homosexuality these days.

The proponets of same sex marriage can manipulate the data anyway they wish but it will never change the fact that homosexuality constitutes deviate behavior and trying to right it by masking it with a ceremony that symbolizes and has defined mankind since its beginning won't change that fact.

[Guest]

Read in the New Testament' Matt.19:4 and Rom.1:26,27. God does NOT change, He's the same for all time in the Old & New Testament. I challenge you to pray and ask Him about the truth of His Holy Word :-)

That's nice but God did not just throw The Bible into someone's lap and say "This is the only word of GOD".

There are many writtings that were left out of The Bible because they did not agree with whatever group of priests/politicians who were writing it.

[Guest]

And God love you for your faith and dedication. However, we the people of the United States of America are of different beliefs and our country defends the rights of everyone, and not just the King James VERSION of GOD. If there is one God that has no problem with Homosexuals, then in American they should have the right to GET MARRIED.

You do understand that other faiths believe that your God is a false God just as you do about theirs. It would be nice and simple if you were right, but that is very speculative.

I would pray to God The Father about all this if I were you, It's NOT just the King James version that I'm quoting. :-)

[Guest]

That's nice but God did not just throw the Bible into someone's lap and say "This is the only word of GOD".

There are many writtings that were left out of The Bible because they did not agree with whatever group of priests/politicians who were writing it.

It does NOT matter what the priests and politicians say or wrote or thought , The ONLY truth IS the Word Of God. :-)

[Guest]

It does NOT matter what the priests and politicians say or wrote or thought , The ONLY truth IS the Word Of God. :-)

As far as I know the only actual words of God in The Bible are the actual words of Jesus Christ. They are usually written in red in the New Testament.

As a Christian, those are the only words that really interest me.

[Guest]

As far as I know the only actual words of God in The Bible are the actual words of Jesus Christ. They are usually written in red in the New Testament.

As a Christian, those are the only words that really interest me.

Amen !!!:-) Praying..... "in the last days good will be looked at as evil and evil will be looked at as good", we're living in those days right now, before Jesus returns. Let's keep our eyes on Him.. and Him alone... :-)

[Guest]

I really do have a discomfort level about discussing this issue but then I have come to realize that is just what the Gay Nation and its supporters are counting on as a form of intimidation. They are also counting on the fact that Americans are compassionate people. I submit one can be both compassionate but not confuse the heart with sound logical thinking. Furthermore a personal disclosure before I begin. My opinion is not based on any religious beliefs.

This continuing debate about marriage/civil unions is a red herring. This debate is really about a small segment of our society demanding that this society legitimize and approve of their sexual preference and hence their lifestyle.

In every cultural since the beginning of time marriage has been defined as a relationship between a man and woman. Further and without any religious overtones but only in a historical context the Bible refers to Adam and Eve and not to Adam and Evan. Further again from a historical viewpoint, meaning that the bible is an accounting of men/women's thinking (via word of mouth) through the centuries condemns men laying with men...an abomination is the wording.

The Gay Nation would mask this issue as a civil rights movement. I disagree. Lawyers are very gifted and I am certain agreements can be struck to ensure same sex partners being afforded rights of surviorship, etc without the need for specific a marriage or civil union ceremony.

Because one disagrees with same sex marriage/civil unions and especially disagrees with their sexual preference doesn't mean they are bigots but count on that tactic to silence opponents. And on a personal note I expect some poster will accuse me of bigotry after I submit this post

The DSM classifies for example a "foot fetish" as abnormal (mental disorder) and also a sexual addiction. Yet in the 1980's homosexuality was striken from this manual with little explanation which usually means because of political pressure.

So adamant are the extremist in this gay movement that young children are being indoctrinated in schools all over the country to see homosexuality as normal and an accepted lifestyle. If these extremist had their way soon they will demand it be viewed as a preferred lifestyle. If you think me wrong pay attention to how Hollywood movies/television is spinning homosexuality these days.

The proponets of same sex marriage can manipulate the data anyway they wish but it will never change the fact that homosexuality constitutes deviate behavior and trying to right it by masking it with a ceremony that symbolizes and has defined mankind since its beginning won't change that fact.

Well spoken, I agree w/you 150% !! :-)

[Guest]

Is God another example of American exceptionalism? Allah, Buddha and all the rest are just figments of ignorant foreigners imaginations? :ohdear:

[Guest]

Is God another example of American exceptionalism? Allah, Buddha and all the rest are just figments of ignorant foreigners imaginations? :ohdear:

Interestingly, some Buddhists have problems with gay marriage as well as us Christians/Jews/Muslims, etc.

James Shaheen: Gay Marriage: What Would Buddha Do? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-shaheen/gay-marriage-what-would-b_b_230855.html)

[Guest]

I would like to ask you what you believe is the difference between a civil marriage ceremony of two straight people (man and woman) and a civil union ceremony between two gay people? Since both have the same intent then both are marriages, aren't they?

Shouldn't both be afforded the exact same legal rights in the unions?

Leave religion out of the equation. That would be up to an individual church to decide if they will do a religious ceremony for gay couples.

Hard to discuss this and not bring God into it but I'll honor your request.

[Guest]

If gays want the same rights and responsibilities as straights in the US, then it would seem that civil marriages are needed for them in almost every state in the US.

This just sounds like something that would be very much in tune with the Equal Protection Clause of the US Constitution. We are all citizens of the US and should be able to enjoy the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness without fanatics of whatever stripe threatening in any way.

[Guest]

So the OP says leave religion out of it and most posters can't do it. "It has nothing to do with religion" you say but then have to cite Adam and Eve or argue about your particular sky fairy and who made up his myths or wrote his books. This was supposed to be about CIVIL marriage, you can belong to a church that wants to send you to hell for taking a birth control pill or using a condom or ever sinning in your heart if you want to belong. Homosexuality is found in many mammalian species, it was a regular practice in many ancient cultures and is entirely natural. If your god doesn't like it then he should quit creating gay people in his own image. In the meantime, keep your religious holier than thou intolerance of gay people out of the secular legal system . Perhaps you would like to reinstate the legal penalties for sodomy, stoning might be a good choice. Rant done.

[Guest]

So the OP says leave religion out of it and most posters can't do it. "It has nothing to do with religion" you say but then have to cite Adam and Eve or argue about your particular sky fairy and who made up his myths or wrote his books. This was supposed to be about CIVIL marriage, you can belong to a church that wants to send you to hell for taking a birth control pill or using a condom or ever sinning in your heart if you want to belong. Homosexuality is found in many mammalian species, it was a regular practice in many ancient cultures and is entirely natural. If your god doesn't like it then he should quit creating gay people in his own image. In the meantime, keep your religious holier than thou intolerance of gay people out of the secular legal system . Perhaps you would like to reinstate the legal penalties for sodomy, stoning might be a good choice. Rant done.

Religion does come into it very fast. CEO Chick-Fil-A Cathy's prediction of the US feeling the wrath of God if we continued to allow gay marriages sounds like something Moses would say as he fought with the Pharaoh. Except with this, it ended up with "Let my people eat chicken sandwiches!"

[Guest]

I would like to ask the posters on this forum how does it effect you in any way to have a same sex couple living next door or down the street or on the next block, but I'll have to wait for them to return from church where they are learning to be tolerant of all god's children?

[Guest]

Praying for ALL of you. :-)

[Guest]

There seems to be some fear that us liberals will wind up in hell for advocating for gay rights.

I have never really understood that mentality.

One thing, the priests of old sure were great at manipulating people. Put a little phrase in The Bible here and it negates all of the love and human compassion taught by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the Sermon on the Mount.

[Guest]

Ask God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit about all these discussions, He will show you the truth...

[Guest]

Because it's against the Word of God (Bible)

What does a CIVIL union have to do with the Bible?

[Guest]

The One and Only True God The Father of Jesus Christ who came to earth to save all of mankind from their sins. (you're talking about the false god's) Read the what the Bible says re; homosexuality. Lev.18:22-24 , Lev.20:13, Lev.22:18,24

Then I take it you also agree with Deut. 22:13-21 or maybe Leviticus 24:16 and how about Leviticus 20:10

And who could disagree with Leviticus 20:09... I see a lot of those on airplanes.

[Guest]

Then I take it you also agree with Deut. 22:13-21 or maybe Leviticus 24:16 and how about Leviticus 20:10

And who could disagree with Leviticus 20:09... I see a lot of those on airplanes.

Some of those laws look like they are from at least the Stone Age.

[Guest]

I did not want to include this in my post but what I found in the original post was "confirmation bias". In the original post posters were admonished not to bring religion into the conversation. I did not and will re-address that issue shortly.

However by virtue of the fact that the original post asked religion not to be included in opinions clearly denotes that references to God's/Bible's word has no validity. Ergo, if you are one of those church going obedient to Ten Commandment types your opinion is flawed, your opinion is dismissed because you believe in fairy tales....or something to that effect.

Recognizing that bias was implanted in the original post my references were from a historical prospective. Regardless of whether you believe in God, Bible, religion, etc the bible certainly can be viewed, once again, from a historical point of view from the people living during those times. Whether in the old testament or new throughout the ages men/women recording events of their time made it clear that homosexuality was frowned upon and found to be of deviate behavior.

I am not inclined to teach my grandchildren that homosexuality is an OK thing when every fiber of my body tells me it is against nature and no one has to even bring God's word into the conversation just simply compare the physical anatomy of man and woman and you can recognize the complementary nature of the sexes Whether that difference was an act of God or an act of nature is a personal choice but that significant and wonderful difference is a fact that cannot be dismissed.

Respectively submitted

[Guest]

I did not want to include this in my post but what I found in the original post was "confirmation bias". In the original post posters were admonished not to bring religion into the conversation. I did not and will re-address that issue shortly.

However by virtue of the fact that the original post asked religion not to be included in opinions clearly denotes that references to God's/Bible's word has no validity. Ergo, if you are one of those church going obedient to Ten Commandment types your opinion is flawed, your opinion is dismissed because you believe in fairy tales....or something to that effect.

Recognizing that bias was implanted in the original post my references were from a historical prospective. Regardless of whether you believe in God, Bible, religion, etc the bible certainly can be viewed, once again, from a historical point of view from the people living during those times. Whether in the old testament or new throughout the ages men/women recording events of their time made it clear that homosexuality was frowned upon and found to be of deviate behavior.

I am not inclined to teach my grandchildren that homosexuality is an OK thing when every fiber of my body tells me it is against nature and no one has to even bring God's word into the conversation just simply compare the physical anatomy of man and woman and you can recognize the complementary nature of the sexes Whether that difference was an act of God or an act of nature is personal choice but that significant and wonderful difference is a fact that cannot be dismissed.

Respectively submitted


EXCELLENT post !!!

[Guest]

Still praying for everyone....

[Guest]

My Oh My. Such intolerance and bigotry.
:cry:

I will pray for the intolerant to find it in their heart to love thy neighbor.
:pray:

[Guest]

My Oh My. Such intolerance and bigotry.
:cry:

I will pray for the intolerant to find it in their heart to love thy neighbor.
:pray:

Praying for your soul and salvation...

[Guest]

Do the posters on here believe that a civil wedding performed by a judge or a justice of the peace between two straight people (man and woman) is a real marriage or does it have to be performed in a church to be a real marriage?

As far as I know, every state recognizes a civil wedding as a real marriage for all legal rights. This has NOTHING to do with a church.

Why not allow a gay or lesbian couple the same legal rights as a straight couple for civil weddings?

[Guest]

Praying for your soul and salvation...

LOL I'll drink to that.

[Guest]

Do the posters on here believe that a civil wedding performed by a judge or a justice of the peace between two straight people (man and woman) is a real marriage or does it have to be performed in a church to be a real marriage?

As far as I know, every state recognizes a civil wedding as a real marriage for all legal rights. This has NOTHING to do with a church.

Why not allow a gay or lesbian couple the same legal rights as a straight couple for civil weddings?

Probably depends on the religion/culture/ethnicity of the people getting married whether or not you need a church wedding.

The US Constitution's Freedom of Religion clause should protect churches from having to perform weddings that do not agree with their various doctrines. There are various churches that perform gay wedding ceremonies.

[Guest]

Praying for your soul and salvation...

No bigotry here such religious intolerance...we all should pray to our own gods for salvation.

[Guest]

No bigotry here such religious intolerance...we all should pray to our own gods for salvation.

Speaking of bigotry.

Black couple denied wedding in Mississippi : Multicultural Beat (http://blog.pe.com/multicultural-beat/2012/08/05/black-couple-denied-wedding-in-mississippi/)

[Guest]

Well well well you knew it was coming. I expressed it in my original post that "bigotry" would be introduced when someone expressed an opinion in opposition. This country is idealogically ,widely divided, so that not only is there not much that opponents agree upon ,disagreement signals a reason for resentment , insult and much disdain.

[Guest]

Well well well you knew it was coming. I expressed it in my original post that "bigotry" would be introduced when someone expressed an opinion in opposition. This country is ideologically ,widely divided, so that not only is there not much that opponents agree upon ,disagreement signals a reason for resentment , insult and much disdain.

As, I think, you are addressing my post. If you think that bigotry was out of line how about the religious intolerance of praying for our souls....abit those of us who oppossed their postition?

I do see opposition to gay civil unions as bigotry...just my opinion.

[Guest]

As, I think, you are addressing my post. If you think that bigotry was out of line how about the religious intolerance of praying for our souls....abit those of us who oppossed their postition?

I do see opposition to gay civil unions as bigotry...just my opinion.

Yea, the praying for my salvation from who knows who made me laugh. One you should not joke about that and I also see it as bigotry when it comes to opposition to Gay Union of any kind. Theres nothing like the holier than tho attitude.

[Guest]

As, I think, you are addressing my post. If you think that bigotry was out of line how about the religious intolerance of praying for our souls....abit those of us who oppossed their postition?

I do see opposition to gay civil unions as bigotry...just my opinion.

cologal: I was not addressing your post and if my last post left you with that impression then I do feel badly about it. My reference to the bigotry issue was intended as a general comment based simply on the number of posts I counted with the word "bigot, bigotry in them. What is it about our society today that if one is in disagreement there is a need to label them "a bigot" "a racist", etc. One can be against same sex activity and the same sex agenda which by the way is purposely be pushed by the liberal factions in our country, and not be bigoted. But in an effort to stop pushing back by oppponents the liberal left resorts to calling opponents bigots as they disingeniously did against Chick fil A

I am personally opposed to the practice of "menage a trois'" considering it being deviate behavior as well as child pedophiles and promiscuity would you also call me bigoted here.

The liberals on this thread cried intolerence yet those who shared a religious view were ridiculed and mocked.

Should I embrace those groups that are demanding the legitimacy of men-boy relationships. Where does society draw the line?

One reason some posters cited religion/God is because of their deep seated belief in the traditional family as a unit (father, mother, children) and the concept of traditional family is set deep in religion.

I hope this has explained any misconceptions about my intent in the previous post.

Personal Best Regards"

[Guest]

The One and Only True God The Father of Jesus Christ who came to earth to save all of mankind from their sins. (you're talking about the false god's) Read the what the Bible says re; homosexuality. Lev.18:22-24 , Lev.20:13, Lev.22:18,24

OK let's look at Leviticus. Your quote is there!
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. 18:22

Oh Oh, what do we do with this?...
Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. 20:9-12


And the rest of the gory details:

God kills Aaron's sons for offering "strange fire before the Lord." 10:1-2
Hares are unclean since they chew the cud. 11:6
Bats are just unclean birds. 11:13,19
Four-legged birds are an abomination to God. 11:20
Insects have four legs. 11:21, 23
Baby girls are twice as dirty as baby boys. 12:1-8
Menstruating women are unclean to God. 15:19-30
Don't look at any naked menstruating women. 18:19
Don't mix seeds when sowing a field or wear a garment with mixed fibers. 19:19
If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. 19:20
Don't round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. 19:27
Woman with "familiar spirits" must be stoned to death. 20:27
The unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. 21:9
Handicapped people must not approach the altar. 21:16-23
God's 14th Killing:
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 24:10-23
God's instructions for buying slaves. 25:45-46
"Ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it." 26:16
God will "send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children." 26:22
"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." 26:29
God places a dollar value on human life; women are worth less (50 - 60%) than men. 27:3-7


Yikkes!:ohdear:

[Guest]

All religions are cults. Me, I'm going to wait until God shows up and get the straight story from the "horse's mouth." Until them I will believe in God and take the Bible, written my men with a grain of salt and the TV talking heads as running a good con game.

[Guest]

OK let's look at Leviticus. Your quote is there!
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. 18:22

Oh Oh, what do we do with this?...
Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. 20:9-12


And the rest of the gory details:

God kills Aaron's sons for offering "strange fire before the Lord." 10:1-2
Hares are unclean since they chew the cud. 11:6
Bats are just unclean birds. 11:13,19
Four-legged birds are an abomination to God. 11:20
Insects have four legs. 11:21, 23
Baby girls are twice as dirty as baby boys. 12:1-8
Menstruating women are unclean to God. 15:19-30
Don't look at any naked menstruating women. 18:19
Don't mix seeds when sowing a field or wear a garment with mixed fibers. 19:19
If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. 19:20
Don't round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. 19:27
Woman with "familiar spirits" must be stoned to death. 20:27
The unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. 21:9
Handicapped people must not approach the altar. 21:16-23
God's 14th Killing:
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 24:10-23
God's instructions for buying slaves. 25:45-46
"Ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it." 26:16
God will "send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children." 26:22
"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." 26:29
God places a dollar value on human life; women are worth less (50 - 60%) than men. 27:3-7


Yikkes!:ohdear:

Wonderful words to live by. :ohdear:

[Guest]

No worries here....you and I agree on the behavior(s) you posted. Unfortunately, the Man/Boy Love Society is seen as a Gay association rather than a pedophile association. But that is another discussion.

Thanks for the response......

[Guest]

All religions are cults. Me, I'm going to wait until God shows up and get the straight story from the "horse's mouth." Until them I will believe in God and take the Bible, written my men with a grain of salt and the TV talking heads as running a good con game.

I like your style, and I've heard your poker skills are lethal. You sure are playing one big hand with your Maker. LOL.

[Guest]

buggyone - sorry to be so late to the game but we had a wonderfuly busy day. and i don't mean to derail wherever this thread has gone [in the handbasket apparently], but i did tell you i would post a response...so here's my take:

in my humble opinion based on my simplistic summary of history - the romans saw the union of a man and a woman as a legal contract - no religion; then that union became marriage - a religious rite within catholicism based on judaic principles - making it a sacrament...then legal ramifications were introduced after canon law had been established.

but like so many things the govt gets into, it is off the track with the issue of marriage. but i think we have to go back to the middle ages to blame anyone on the basics. in the continuum of legalese, however, govt thru the ages has done nothing but muddle the rules of conduct for same...pushing the responsibility for who can and cannot be married all the way down to individual states. with 50 states - we have 50 different sets of rules - and complicated by the defense of marriage act! UNFORGIVEABLE!

since i became aware of the institution of marriage it had was a religious rite between a man and a woman - the religious belief with which i was raised. so when i was married - i questioned - why did i have to go to town hall and apply for a license? was told it was because it was a legal and binding contract between the two of us - thus, it becomes a civil action, too. so now between the religious do's and don'ts that i had, there were legal do's and don'ts on top of them! many years later someone in the family is married by the mayor in a civil rather than church ceremony. no big deal - still a marriage of a man and a woman - they still have the civil do's and don'ts just not the religious do's and don'ts.

and now gays and lesbians, etc want to marry - but is it a marriage or is it a union? well, ya know what - it is both - it is one and the same - but ONLY if people want it to be! all marriages are civil unions - some just come with the added blessing of one's religion if one has a religion. and it is about time people exercised tolerance...straights, gays lesbians, etc. how many of us know homosexual couples who are more committed and in longer lasting relationships that some of our heterosexual friends?

amen

[Guest]

That was a very well thought-out reply. I am glad to see you agree with me that a civil ceremony for straight couples and for gay/lesbian couple are the same thing and both do constitute a marriage with all the legal rights afforded to both.

Yes, all marriages do have the civil overtones with licenses, etc. It is up to the couple to decide if they want the ceremony at a church or in city hall but they are still marriages.

Times change (evolve) and things that were illegal not too many years ago are legal now. We have to evolve with the times, too.

[Guest]

snipped
Times change (evolve) and things that were illegal not too many years ago are legal now. We have to evolve with the times, too.

it is time a lot of people just plain got over themselves re so many issues! but that's for another thread ;)

[Guest]

...

[Guest]

"Where does society draw the line?"

I draw the line at NOT letting my smoking/drunk neighbor interpret the bible for me. I will do that on my own and she can stay out of my eternal soul. It is so against my beliefs that any man or woman should intervene between me and god.

[Guest]

Quick reply to the long cut and paste above re our REAL ROOTS. If I were to accept your contention that nearly all the signatories of the Declar. of Ind were "orthodox deeply committed" christians, (which I do not) you need to explain to me a few things..

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: 'The congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.
If the Constitution wasn't ratified until 1788 how did the US Congress do anything in 1782? And if you look it up, this is a fake quote.

the same congress that formed the American Bible Society
The American Bible society is a private organization formed in 1816 and it was NOT formed by congress.

Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation

Actually the CC never funded or implemented that proposal, it was permanently postponed.

Was George Washington a Christian
Without going founding father by founding father I will ask a simple question. If these devout men were intending to make this a christian nation, and god and jesus were so important, not in their private lives but in their view of the nation, Why did they all forget to include jesus in any of the founding documents of America? Why does the constitution only have two references to religion and its role in government? What are those two? First that there is be NO religious requirement to hold office and the well known separation of church and state. The founding fathers did everything they could to not make this a christian nation but rather a secular one, no matter what their private faith might have been. The treaty of Tripoli is very clear, written during the Washington administration, passed unanimously by congress and signed by J Adams "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

In 1980, Stone vs. Graham outlawed the Ten Commandments in our public schools.

The Supreme Court said this: 'If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments were to have any effect at all, it would be to induce school children to read them. And if they read them, meditated upon them, and perhaps venerated and observed them, this is not a permissible objective.'

You have erred in your presentation and understanding. It was already unconstitutional for schools to promote any religion over any other religion or no religion (see Constitution, first amendment). Stone represented an attempt at an end run around this by having "private" funding for posting of a particular church's version of the 10 commandments required to be posted in every school in Kentucky. The correct quote from Stone is"
Posting of religious texts on the wall serves no such educational function. If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments are to have any effect at all, it will be to induce the schoolchildren to read, meditate upon, perhaps to venerate and obey, the Commandments. However desirable this might be as a matter of private devotion, it is not a permissible state objective under the Establishment Clause of the Constitution." The court did not hold that the priciples of the 10 commandments are wrong, but rather that they are inseparable from promotion of a particular religion. Obviously not all the 10 deal with common law or natural law. The first four are entirely religious, only one god, keep the sabbath, no images etc. These have nothing to do with American law. If I am a polytheist with no sabbath and have images of my gods (think Hindu) these rules directly contradict my faith and the school should not be in the business of attacking my faith and pushing another. That is the meaning of the phrase venerate and obey. It is an attempt by the
christians to get the public education system to have school children to reject the faith or no faith taught in their home for another faith which is of course the "better" faith represented by the posted religion, the officially promoted religion of Kentucky.
I could go on but Long enough reply..

[Guest]

Quick reply to the long cut and paste above re our REAL ROOTS. If I were to accept your contention that nearly all the signatories of the Declar. of Ind were "orthodox deeply committed" christians, (which I do not) you need to explain to me a few things..

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: 'The congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.
If the Constitution wasn't ratified until 1788 how did the US Congress do anything in 1782? And if you look it up, this is a fake quote.

the same congress that formed the American Bible Society
The American Bible society is a private organization formed in 1816 and it was NOT formed by congress.

Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation

Actually the CC never funded or implemented that proposal, it was permanently postponed.

Was George Washington a Christian
Without going founding father by founding father I will ask a simple question. If these devout men were intending to make this a christian nation, and god and jesus were so important, not in their private lives but in their view of the nation, Why did they all forget to include jesus in any of the founding documents of America? Why does the constitution only have two references to religion and its role in government? What are those two? First that there is be NO religious requirement to hold office and the well known separation of church and state. The founding fathers did everything they could to not make this a christian nation but rather a secular one, no matter what their private faith might have been. The treaty of Tripoli is very clear, written during the Washington administration, passed unanimously by congress and signed by J Adams "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

In 1980, Stone vs. Graham outlawed the Ten Commandments in our public schools.

The Supreme Court said this: 'If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments were to have any effect at all, it would be to induce school children to read them. And if they read them, meditated upon them, and perhaps venerated and observed them, this is not a permissible objective.'

You have erred in your presentation and understanding. It was already unconstitutional for schools to promote any religion over any other religion or no religion (see Constitution, first amendment). Stone represented an attempt at an end run around this by having "private" funding for posting of a particular church's version of the 10 commandments required to be posted in every school in Kentucky. The correct quote from Stone is"
Posting of religious texts on the wall serves no such educational function. If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments are to have any effect at all, it will be to induce the schoolchildren to read, meditate upon, perhaps to venerate and obey, the Commandments. However desirable this might be as a matter of private devotion, it is not a permissible state objective under the Establishment Clause of the Constitution." The court did not hold that the priciples of the 10 commandments are wrong, but rather that they are inseparable from promotion of a particular religion. Obviously not all the 10 deal with common law or natural law. The first four are entirely religious, only one god, keep the sabbath, no images etc. These have nothing to do with American law. If I am a polytheist with no sabbath and have images of my gods (think Hindu) these rules directly contradict my faith and the school should not be in the business of attacking my faith and pushing another. That is the meaning of the phrase venerate and obey. It is an attempt by the
christians to get the public education system to have school children to reject the faith or no faith taught in their home for another faith which is of course the "better" faith represented by the posted religion, the officially promoted religion of Kentucky.
I could go on but Long enough reply..

Far longer than I would ever read. :ohdear:

[Guest]

OUR REAL ROOTS:

God help us to return to his guidance before our country is cursed and destroyed.

Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.

It is the same congress that formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.

Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, 'Give me liberty or give me death.' But in current textbooks the context of these words is deleted. Here is what he said:


“An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death.”


These sentences have been erased from our textbooks.


Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this 'It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.'

Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: 'I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.'

Consider these words from George Washington, the Father of our Nation, in his farewell speech on September 19, 1796:

'It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.'


Was George Washington a Christian? Consider these words from his personal prayer book: 'Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb and purge my heart by the Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thy son, Jesus Christ.'


Consider these words by John Adams, our second president, who also served as chairman of the American Bible Society.


In an address to military leaders he said, 'We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'


How about our first Court Justice, John Jay?


He stated that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. 'Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.'

John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams, was the sixth U.S. President.


He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, 'The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.'

Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, 'The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.'

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: 'The congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.'


William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the 'Schoolmaster of the Nation.'

Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey: 'The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.'

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first.

Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the scriptures:

'Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).'

For over 100 years, more than 50% of all Harvard graduates were pastors!

It is clear from history that the Bible and the Christian faith, were foundational in our educational and judicial system. However in 1947, there was a radical change of direction in the Supreme Court.

Here is the prayer that was banished:

'Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on Thee. We beg Thy blessings upon us and our parents and our teachers and our country.

Amen.'

In 1963, the Supreme Court ruled that Bible reading was outlawed as unconstitutional in the public school system. The court offered this justification: 'If portions of the New Testament were read without explanation, they could and have been psychologically harmful to children.'

Bible reading was now unconstitutional , though the Bible was quoted 94 percent of the time by those who wrote our constitution and shaped our Nation and its system of education and justice and government.


In 1965, the Courts denied as unconstitutional the rights of a student in the public school cafeteria to bow his head and pray audibly for his food.

In 1980, Stone vs. Graham outlawed the Ten Commandments in our public schools.

The Supreme Court said this: 'If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments were to have any effect at all, it would be to induce school children to read them. And if they read them, meditated upon them, and perhaps venerated and observed them, this is not a permissible objective.'

Is it not a permissible objective to allow our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments?

James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: 'We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.'

Today we are asking God to bless America. But how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him?


Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.

Can you elaborate? You mean like "American only for American Christians"? :ohdear:

[Guest]

...looks like it is a society trying to get people to actually read The Bible.

That's probably a very good thing since so many people get their information about what is in this book from people with various agendas.

Supposedly, the American Bible Society is non-denominational.

American Bible Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bible_Society)

Wish more people would read the book rather than having people tell them what is in it.

Have no idea what many of the various writers of The Bible would make of the gay marriages in 2012 around the world. There seem to many different cultural backgrounds speaking from the many voices you hear when reading The Bible.

I took a course in The Bible as Literature while I was minoring in Religious Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno. This was a great eye opener of just how many people wrote portions of The Bible. It does have some beautifully written stories, histories, songs, biographies, fables, myths, etc.

[Guest]

taltarzac - in your course of studies re your minor - did any of the classes you took present the bible as something other than a piece of literature? i know folks who have taken the bible as literature course and have come away with comments such as - it has a good plot, i wasn't sure where the ending was, too many characters, good plot twists...and then there are my friends who attend bible studies twice a week who share quite the polar opposite view! they leave me believing that you can't fully understand and/or appreciate the bible if you have not studied the bible from both points of view!

[Guest]

The powers that be in the church I attend have declared that legalization of same sex marriage will destroy the traditional marriage (one man, one woman) and the traditional family unit which was instituted by God for the propagation of the human species.
Well these days with the divorce rate greater than 50 percent, with single parent families fast approaching a majority, with increasing numbers of children born outside of the marriage bonds, I'd say the heterosexuals themselves have done a pretty good job of destroying the institution of marriage. And without any help from gay people who want to be married.
I have a younger sister who is married to her girl friend, and can't see how her relationship affects my traditional one in the slightest.

[Guest]

...looks like it is a society trying to get people to actually read The Bible.

I agree and I have read the King James Version from cover to cover several times and the way it is quoted and referenced on this site is not correct.

[Guest]

taltarzac - in your course of studies re your minor - did any of the classes you took present the bible as something other than a piece of literature? i know folks who have taken the bible as literature course and have come away with comments such as - it has a good plot, i wasn't sure where the ending was, too many characters, good plot twists...and then there are my friends who attend bible studies twice a week who share quite the polar opposite view! they leave me believing that you can't fully understand and/or appreciate the bible if you have not studied the bible from both points of view!


I was raised a Lutheran and went to churches of various denominations for a while in Reno, Nevada and before that near Menomonee Falls, WI.

I go to church services occasionally at the Church on the Square, too. These mostly seem like people socializing and enjoying some music and life lessons drawn from The Bible from various pastors/priests/ministers, etc.

Often, however, whatever denomation has a preacher/minister/pastor, etc. there is that denomation's spin on the sections of The Bible used.

Personally, I believe with judicious use of various quotes in The Bible you can support just about any position ever taken on religious issues.

[Guest]

This is all we need to know about whether or not our nation was founded on Christian beliefs and values:

The Prayer in the First Congress, A.D. 1774

O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings,
and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold
all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme
and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments;
look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States,
who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and
thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection,
desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee.

To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause;
to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support,
which Thou alone canst give.
Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care;
give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field;
defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries;
convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist
in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts,
constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the
day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly;
enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation.
That the scene of blood may be speedily closed;
that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored,
and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people.
Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds;
shower down on them and the millions they here represent,
such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world
and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come.
All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché
Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.m.

And how these roots continue today: The Office of the Chaplain, United States House of Representatives (http://chaplain.house.gov/index.html)

First Prayer of the Continental Congress, Office of the Chaplain (http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html)

[Guest]

...used to love quoting. "In those days we poured God over everything like ketchup." This is from the 1964 movie The Best Man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Man_(1964_film)


This is all we need to know about whether or not our nation was founded on Christian beliefs and values:

The Prayer in the First Congress, A.D. 1774

O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings,
and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold
all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme
and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments;
look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States,
who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and
thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection,
desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee.

To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause;
to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support,
which Thou alone canst give.
Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care;
give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field;
defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries;
convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist
in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts,
constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the
day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly;
enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation.
That the scene of blood may be speedily closed;
that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored,
and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people.
Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds;
shower down on them and the millions they here represent,
such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world
and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come.
All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché
Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.m.

And how these roots continue today: The Office of the Chaplain, United States House of Representatives (http://chaplain.house.gov/index.html)

First Prayer of the Continental Congress, Office of the Chaplain (http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html)

[Guest]

...used to love quoting. "In those days we poured God over everything like ketchup." This is from the 1964 movie The Best Man. The Best Man (1964 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Man_(1964_film))

Yes, the founders used flowery, God-infused language, as was Lincoln's use of "Four score and seven years ago" to express that number.

My point was that there is no doubt as to whether this nation was founded on Christian beliefs and values, and continues to be so.

[Guest]

Yes, the founders used flowery, God-infused language, as was Lincoln's use of "Four score and seven years ago" to express that number.

My point was that there is no doubt as to whether this nation was founded on Christian beliefs and values, and continues to be so.

i really do wonder about whether this country is continuing to be guided by the history of its christian beliefs. the melting pot of society seems to have created a certain level of demand for a tolerance of other religious values - and tolerance is not a bad thing. however, if/when making room for other religious beliefs/values tends to overshadow the country's founding chirstian beliefs...then i have a problem.

[Guest]

i really do wonder about whether this country is continuing to be guided by the history of its christian beliefs. the melting pot of society seems to have created a certain level of demand for a tolerance of other religious values - and tolerance is not a bad thing. however, if/when making room for other religious beliefs/values tends to overshadow the country's founding chirstian beliefs...then i have a problem.

This seems to show how complicated the Founding Fathers' beliefs were-- http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/spring09/deism.cfm

[Guest]

@Taltarzac725, a deism word search page. That made me shake my head and really lol.

[Guest]

[

QUOTE=ilovetv;535033]Yes, the founders used flowery, God-infused language, as was Lincoln's use of "Four score and seven years ago" to express that number.

My point was that there is no doubt as to whether this nation was founded on Christian beliefs and values, and continues to be so.[/QUOTE]

ilovetv: This country from its beginning has been steeped in the Judeo-Christian teachings which afforded all of us whether we were believers or not of the belief and benefits found in pursuing the moral imperative. Secularism draws us away from that moral imperative and creates self- serving leaders.
and hedonistic behavior. It is why America should judciously protect the basic foundation of our nation and that is the "traditional family created by traditional marriage. to suggest otherwise is at minimum cavalier.

[Guest]

[

QUOTE=ilovetv;535033]Yes, the founders used flowery, God-infused language, as was Lincoln's use of "Four score and seven years ago" to express that number.

My point was that there is no doubt as to whether this nation was founded on Christian beliefs and values, and continues to be so.

ilovetv: This country from its beginning has been steeped in the Judeo-Christian teachings which afforded all of us whether we were believers or not of the belief and benefits found in pursuing the moral imperative. Secularism draws us away from that moral imperative and creates self- serving leaders.
and hedonistic behavior. It is why America should judciously protect the basic foundation of our nation and that is the "traditional family created by traditional marriage. to suggest otherwise is at minimum cavalier.[/QUOTE]
_____________________________

You do not get it. The civil marriage is legal in the United States. It does not have to be a religious ceremony unless the couple wants a religious ceremony. You must evolve to the 21st century and understand that times change and you must change with them.

The Founding Fathers of our country believed in slavery and that only land holders could vote. Those are out dated ideas. Americans have evolved with the times and it has been for the better.

You may not like it but your traditional man and woman marriage is not the only legal marriage in several states. Soon it will be legal for gays and lesbians to marry in any state. Evolve with the times like others have done in the past.

[Guest]

The One and Only True God The Father of Jesus Christ who came to earth to save all of mankind from their sins. (you're talking about the false god's) Read the what the Bible says re; homosexuality. Lev.18:22-24 , Lev.20:13, Lev.22:18,24

You just outlawed cheeseburgers, lobster meals, cotton/polyester shirts and a whole host of other things.

[Guest]

god? what god? the bible was written by men seeking control over others. I do not believe in a contrivance that has only been used to murder people en mass for not agreeing with it. A true god if it existed would strike it's followers down for the heresy THEY preach.

[Guest]

god? what god? the bible was written by men seeking control over others. I do not believe in a contrivance that has only been used to murder people en mass for not agreeing with it. A true god if it existed would strike it's followers down for the heresy THEY preach.

Some of it could be written by God. Very hard to tell with all the revisions and such involved in the evolution of The Bible .

As a Christian, I believe some of the Gospels were the words of Jesus Christ and some of the Commandments may have been given to Moses. All based on faith however as it is incredibly difficult to prove any of this. Allah could have visited Mohammad too. See God as trying to help groups of people become better by visiting some of their future leaders.