Ayn Rand, her philosophy, and Paul Ryan.

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Paul Ryan, Ayn Rand Fan, Brings Writer's Philosophy To Presidential Stage (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/11/paul-ryan-ayn-rand_n_1767766.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)

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I would have preferred Palin for VP - she didn't read any books.

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Paul Ryan, Ayn Rand Fan, Brings Writer's Philosophy To Presidential Stage (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/11/paul-ryan-ayn-rand_n_1767766.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)

Again, it would be far far more interesting if you would even give a hint of what you're thinking as you post this unadorned link. :icon_bored:

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I cannot vote for Obama.

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Again, the more I look at Ryan, the more I like his views. I understand he is a catholic, but I am yet to see become too religious for the WH. I am ready to see him in a question answer with any news or cable channel other than FOX of course.

[Guest]

Again, the more I look at Ryan, the more I like his views. I understand he is a catholic, but I am yet to see become too religious for the WH. I am ready to see him in a question answer with any news or cable channel other than FOX of course.

He does not look at all like a religious fanatic. Ayn Rand's philosophy is basically atheist. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-vp-paul-ryan-ayn-rand-20120811,0,1175099.story

Ryan had said that Ayn Rand's philosphy was a big part of how he viewed life. This was before he became the golden boy of the Repubs.

[Guest]

Well, that brings out my wishy washy. Last month I was ready to vote for Obama, now this Ryan addition sure does slide me back up on the fence. Since I have always liked Romney, unless some ugly stuff comes out in the next three months, I may have to change back. I was so concerned he would go with a Santorum or Perry to satisfy the Extremists, but I should have had more faith in him.

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I've seen the term "social darwinism" used to describe Ryan before, don't have a problem with it.

What's the difference between "social darwinism" and "the cream rises to the top"?

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I've seen the term "social darwinism" used to describe Ryan before, don't have a problem with it.

What's the difference between "social darwinism" and "the cream rises to the top"?

Ryan's budget rewards the rich and takes away many benefits from government to the poor, seniors and lower middle class. Robert Reich (The Republican's Social-Darwinist Budget Plan) (http://robertreich.org/post/19645551397)

It does very little with actually addressing the deficit though. The debt drops to $166 billion by 2018 but then starts growing again.

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Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 2 - YouTube

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Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMTDaVpBPR0)

Pulling up YouTube.

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Ryan has had to deal with Obama before concerning Obama's projections etc.

I believe Paul ryan was very very tactful when explaining to the President of the United States that he had his decimal in the wrong place:D

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Ryan's budget rewards the rich and takes away many benefits from government to the poor, seniors and lower middle class. Robert Reich (The Republican's Social-Darwinist Budget Plan) (http://robertreich.org/post/19645551397)

Well, rewarding the poor doesn't seem to be working, does it?

[Guest]

Well, rewarding the poor doesn't seem to be working, does it?

The budget is what has not worked. Obama's budget never got off the ground as far as I can tell because of Congressional roadblocks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/apr/06/mitt-romney/romney-says-obama-failed-pass-budget/

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The budget is what has not worked. Obama's budget never got off the ground as far as I can tell because of Congressional roadblocks. The*President's*Budget for*Fiscal Year 2013 | The White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/apr/06/mitt-romney/romney-says-obama-failed-pass-budget/

Obama's budget was voted down by Democrats as well as Republicans each year....he has not received a yes vote on any of them !!!

He of course blames someone else but it is all by design...he does not want a budget...how can you have a budget and then spend what you want ?

[Guest]

Obama's budget was voted down by Democrats as well as Republicans each year....he has not received a yes vote on any of them !!!

He of course blames someone else but it is all by design...he does not want a budget...how can you have a budget and then spend what you want ?

It is the job of Congress to pass a budget.

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It is the job of Congress to pass a budget.

Last senate vote and I think for the past 3 years...98-0 !!!!!

THAT by the way is the vote on the OBAMA SUBMITTED BUDGET !!!

THAT by the way in the DEMOCRATIC controlled Senate !!!!!

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It is the job of Congress to pass a budget.

:a040: Right now Congress could not and would not compromise on the color of the hearse in a one car funeral. There was a time when there were enough "moderates" on both sides to carry the day. Not so any more. :ohdear:

[Guest]

Paul Ryan, Ayn Rand Fan, Brings Writer's Philosophy To Presidential Stage (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/11/paul-ryan-ayn-rand_n_1767766.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)

WHY is this an issue and we seem to be not allowed to discuss the teachings that our President was exposed to and flaunted ????

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It is the job of Congress to pass a budget.

Do you suppose if the President doesn't like what is being proposed by the oppoisition that he would approach his Party and suggest they stand pat?

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WHY is this an issue and we seem to be not allowed to discuss the teachings that our President was exposed to and flaunted ????

That really is the heart of the matter.

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WHY is this an issue and we seem to be not allowed to discuss the teachings that our President was exposed to and flaunted ????

When though? Paul Ryan seemed to be passsing out Ayn Rand's books as Christmas presents not very long ago. Barack Obama's questionable passions with others do not seem to be that recent. http://americanvaluesnetwork.org/aynrandvsjesus/ http://swampland.time.com/2011/06/03/paul-ryans-ayn-rand-problem/

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When though? Paul Ryan seemed to be passsing out Ayn Rand's books as Christmas presents not very long ago. Barach Obama's questionable passions with others do not seem to be that recent.

You are kidding right ? Almost every word and action is right out of the Organizer handbook and the left wing rhetoric he flaunted in Chicago and the teachings of all those folks back then.

HOWEVER,should you mention this...well, let me see...

You are a racist

Why bring up that stuff, what difference does it make now

He cant do all that...he has a congress to control him

Prove it

Who cares about Alinsky (although Obama TAUGHT his doctrine...didnt just pass out books)

These are just a few that have been thrown at me.....Ryan likes one of the largest selling books ever and Obama TEACHES the philosohy of the most radical leftist ever and you cannot see any difference ?

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I don't understand this demonizing agenda against the studies of Ayn Rand.

It seems to me that there's a brilliance around the works of Ayn Rand that cannot be denied.

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Tal, can you tell me in your own words, not a link, but your own beliefs and thoughts, what you think Ayn Rand's fictional book Atlas Shrugred is all about and why you see it as negative?

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IIRC, (could be wrong, I'm not as sharp as I once was-LOL), didn't Ayn Rand move to this country from Russia to escape Socialism?

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I don't understand this demonizing agenda against the studies of Ayn Rand.

It seems to me that there's a brilliance around the works of Ayn Rand that cannot be denied.

Exactly. What do people think her writing and philosophy is about?

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I don't understand this demonizing agenda against the studies of Ayn Rand.

It seems to me that there's a brilliance around the works of Ayn Rand that cannot be denied.

Of course.

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Tal, can you tell me in your own words, not a link, but your own beliefs and thoughts, what you think Ayn Rand's fictional book Atlas Shrugred is all about and why you see it as negative?

Atlas Shrugged. I probably read this book 30 years ago. It sort of rings a bell. Ayn Rand's philosophy is set out more in two nonfiction books-- The Virtue of Selfishness and Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology . Her philosophy is called Objectivism and sounds like she just does away with about 3000 years of very sophisticated philosophical debates by getting rid of God, the soul, free will, etc. by taking a very commonsensical approach. What's in the world are objects. People interact with objects during their existence. What is most important to the single person is his or her economic survival. The state is supposed to leave people alone while they pursue their economic interests. Not even sure why Ayn Rand needs a state in her philosophy.

What man is supposed to enjoy is art. She seems to see art as the only thing that human's should worship. There's no afterlife, no God, etc. in the work of Ayn Rand that I can see. No real morals, no real ethics. Rand's ethics are just that we should leave one another alone so that each can pursue his or her own economic interests. If another person uses violence to prevent someone else from pursuing his or her economic interest, then you can use violence in turn.

Abortions are fine in Rand's philosophy because a fetus is not a person striving for an economic interest. There is no God in Rand's work, no soul of a person so there is no argument coming from there that a fetus might have a soul.

I may be missing something though in Ayn Rand's work. I have two B.A.s and one of these was in Philosophy. We never studied Ayn Rand as I cannot remember anyone seeing her as a serious philosopher. I studied Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, Hobbes, Newton, Locke, Burke, Hume, Berkeley, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Pierce, James, Freud, Popper, Wittgenstein, Kuhn, etc.

[Guest]

Atlas Shrugged. I probably read this book 30 years ago. It sort of rings a bell. Ayn Rand's philosophy is set out more in two nonfiction books-- The Virtue of Selfishness and Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology . Her philosophy is called Objectivism and sounds like she just does away with about 3000 years of very sophisticated philosophical debates by getting rid of God, the soul, free will, etc. by taking a very commonsensical approach. What's in the world are objects. People interact with objects during their existence. What is most important to the single person is his or her economic survival. The state is supposed to leave people alone while they pursue their economic interests. Not even sure why Ayn Rand needs a state in her philosophy.

What man is supposed to enjoy is art. She seems to see art as the only thing that human's should worship. There's no afterlife, no God, etc. in the work of Ayn Rand that I can see. No real morals, no real ethics. Rand's ethics are just that we should leave one another alone so that each can pursue his or her own economic interests. If another person uses violence to prevent someone else from pursuing his or her economic interest, then you can use violence in turn.

Abortions are fine in Rand's philosophy because a fetus is not a person striving for an economic interest. There is no God in Rand's work, no soul of a person so there is no argument coming from there that a fetus might have a soul.

I may be missing something though in Ayn Rand's work. I have two B.A.s and one of these was in Philosophy. We never studied Ayn Rand as I cannot remember anyone seeing her as a serious philosopher. I studied Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, Hobbes, Newton, Locke, Burke, Hume, Berkeley, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Pierce, James, Freud, Popper, Wittgenstein, Kuhn, etc.

Taltarzac72...YOU began this thread on Ayn Rand for a reason and I, for one, do not understand why. It "appears" to me that it is simply another way of demeaning the Republican candidate, in this case for VP.

Should I begin a thread titled "Saul Alinsky" I would be met with great anger and would be asked what that has to do with anything even though the President actually TAUGHT the Alinsky philosophy and how to implement those things.

You can begin any thread you want, but it is just not clear to me WHY you began this thread..as I said it is not just that Ryan likes the book because if that were the case, I wouldnt have scars from discussing the Presidents involvement with "Rules for Radicals" by Alinsky.

You even admit in this last post that you have not read Ayn Rand in 30 years.

I am just at a loss as to what was your motive here !

Thanks for listening !

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Taltarzac72...YOU began this thread on Ayn Rand for a reason and I, for one, do not understand why. It "appears" to me that it is simply another way of demeaning the Republican candidate, in this case for VP.

Should I begin a thread titled "Saul Alinsky" I would be met with great anger and would be asked what that has to do with anything even though the President actually TAUGHT the Alinsky philosophy and how to implement those things.

You can begin any thread you want, but it is just not clear to me WHY you began this thread..as I said it is not just that Ryan likes the book because if that were the case, I wouldnt have scars from discussing the Presidents involvement with "Rules for Radicals" by Alinsky.

You even admit in this last post that you have not read Ayn Rand in 30 years.

I am just at a loss as to what was your motive here !

Thanks for listening !

Ayn Rand has probably been dead 30 years or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand Never saw any real worth to her ideas when I read her fiction books. I read Shakespeare within the last ten days or so. His work appeared in the London Olympics because he has all those sophisticated ideas you find in deep philosophical works even though I doubt if Shakespeare read very much Plato or Aristotle.

I see nothing wrong with Alinsky. He looks like a Marxist of some sort. So what if a young Obama read some Marx and followed the teachings of a man on how to do community activism.

The problem with Mitt Romney's pick of Paul Ryan is that Ryan has embraced an author--Ayn Rand-- whose very values are the exact opposite of those you find in Compassionate Conservatism as well as those you find in the Religious Right.

Many of the values of helping the poor you see in the work of Marx and neo-Marxists like Alinsky. I doubt if many Democrats have any kind of problem with Barack Obama and Alinsky. Incidentally, Alinsky died in 1972 when Obama was 10. http://billmoyers.com/content/who-is-saul-alinsky/

[Guest]

Ayn Rand has probably been dead 30 years or so. Never saw any real worth to her ideas when I read her fiction books. I read Shakespeare within the last ten days or so. His work appeared in the London Olympics because he has all those sophisticated ideas you find in deep philosophical works even though I doubt if Shakespeare read very much Plato or Aristotle.

I see nothing wrong with Alinsky. He looks like a Marxist of some sort. So what if a young Obama read some Marx and followed the teachings of a man on how to do community activism.

The problem with Mitt Romney's pick of Paul Ryan is that Ryan has embraced an author--Ayn Rand-- whose very values are the exact opposite of those you find in Reagan's Compassionate Conservatism as well as those you find in the Religious Right.

Many of the values of helping the poor you see in the work of Marx and neo-Marxists like Alinsky. I doubt if many Democrats have any kind of problem with Barack Obama and Alinsky.

Well, I have probems with marxist radicals. If you think the Democratic party embraces that, which your imply in your last sentence then we need help in this country.

You have successfully avoided the question which was WHY did you begin this thread....your motivation. It makes no sense....you and as you say other Democrats embrace a radical marxist philosophy and embrace a man in the WH who did not just read it, he taught it and used those practices in his job.

Everyone to their own beliefs !!!!

[Guest]

Well, I have probems with marxist radicals. If you think the Democratic party embraces that, which your imply in your last sentence then we need help in this country.

You have successfully avoided the question which was WHY did you begin this thread....your motivation. It makes no sense....you and as you say other Democrats embrace a radical marxist philosophy and embrace a man in the WH who did not just read it, he taught it and used those practices in his job.

Everyone to their own beliefs !!!!

I never said Barack Obama embraces a radical Marxist idea. He does not. He read a book by Allinsky who died in 1972 when Obama was 10. Alinsky was big on community organizing. Obama was a community organizer. Not much more than that.

[Guest]

Atlas Shrugged. I probably read this book 30 years ago. It sort of rings a bell. Ayn Rand's philosophy is set out more in two nonfiction books-- The Virtue of Selfishness and Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology . Her philosophy is called Objectivism and sounds like she just does away with about 3000 years of very sophisticated philosophical debates by getting rid of God, the soul, free will, etc. by taking a very commonsensical approach. What's in the world are objects. People interact with objects during their existence. What is most important to the single person is his or her economic survival. The state is supposed to leave people alone while they pursue their economic interests. Not even sure why Ayn Rand needs a state in her philosophy.

What man is supposed to enjoy is art. She seems to see art as the only thing that human's should worship. There's no afterlife, no God, etc. in the work of Ayn Rand that I can see. No real morals, no real ethics. Rand's ethics are just that we should leave one another alone so that each can pursue his or her own economic interests. If another person uses violence to prevent someone else from pursuing his or her economic interest, then you can use violence in turn.

Abortions are fine in Rand's philosophy because a fetus is not a person striving for an economic interest. There is no God in Rand's work, no soul of a person so there is no argument coming from there that a fetus might have a soul.

I may be missing something though in Ayn Rand's work. I have two B.A.s and one of these was in Philosophy. We never studied Ayn Rand as I cannot remember anyone seeing her as a serious philosopher. I studied Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, Hobbes, Newton, Locke, Burke, Hume, Berkeley, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Pierce, James, Freud, Popper, Wittgenstein, Kuhn, etc.

You make Rand sound like a modern day liberal.

[Guest]

You make Rand sound like a modern day liberal.

Ayn Rand was a good philosopher. It does look like she had read many of the important works of Western philosophy and took an original stab at addressing many of the philosophical ideas.

She does not look like much of a politician nor much of an economist.

Not sure how much US liberal Democrat or conservative Republican labels really fit her ideas. She was Russian. Most of her ideas seem to be addressing problems she saw with how the USSR treated individuals.

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OMG...she was Russian? Paul Ryan embracing a Russky's philosophy. Where is Joseph McCarthy.....or Michelle Bachmann when ya need em. :cus:

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I never said Barack Obama embraces a radical Marxist idea. He does not. He read a book by Allinsky who died in 1972 when Obama was 10. Alinsky was big on community organizing. Obama was a community organizer. Not much more than that.

I am going to say this on more time and this time I hope you are listening....you seem to have a filter or something working there.....

OBAMA did not just read a book..........HE TAUGHT THE PRINCIPLES OF THE BOOK RULES FOR RADICALS...HE TAUGHT IT

To whom did he teach it....neighborhood organizers which he was one and practiced those principles.


THAT is much more than "read a book" !!!

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I am going to say this on more time and this time I hope you are listening....you seem to have a filter or something working there.....

OBAMA did not just read a book..........HE TAUGHT THE PRINCIPLES OF THE BOOK RULES FOR RADICALS...HE TAUGHT IT

To whom did he teach it....neighborhood organizers which he was one and practiced those principles.


THAT is much more than "read a book" !!!

Community organizing is not radical. I will bet that various Republican community organizers use the same kind of approach as that taught by Obama. Ever hear of the Tea Party?

[Guest]

Community organizing is not radical. I will bet that various Republican community organizers use the same kind of approach as that taught by Obama. Ever hear of the Tea Party?

I am sure that is correct...again Obama TAUGHT THE BOOK AND HOW TO UNDERSTAND AND IMPLEMENT RULES FOR RADICALS BY ALINSKY.

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I am sure that is correct...again Obama TAUGHT THE BOOK AND HOW TO UNDERSTAND AND IMPLEMENT RULES FOR RADICALS BY ALINSKY.

Which also turn up used by the Tea Party. Who is Saul Alinsky, and why is Newt Gingrich so obsessed with him? - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2012/0128/Who-is-Saul-Alinsky-and-why-is-Newt-Gingrich-so-obsessed-with-him)

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Which also turn up used by the Tea Party. Who is Saul Alinsky, and why is Newt Gingrich so obsessed with him? - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2012/0128/Who-is-Saul-Alinsky-and-why-is-Newt-Gingrich-so-obsessed-with-him)

Heck, Hillary Clinton wrote her thesis on Alinsky...fact is that it was sealed as I understand it for a bit. Of course, but again we are talking about a man who was so proficient, so knowledgable in the theory he taught the use of the policy to other organizers and espoused it to them. Not an academic excercise, a real world exercise !