Degenerative diseases of the elderly: Are they all genetic?

[Villages PL]

What must it be like to think that everything is genetic? I would liken it to being lost, perhaps adrift on a life-raft in the middle of the ocean. In which case, your continued well-being and your very existence would depend mostly on luck.

Therefore, if you think you have "bad" genes you might reason that there's no point in trying to live a healthy lifestyle. What good would it do? And if you think you have "good" genes you might come to the same conclusion: Why bother depriving yourself of all the pleasures of your favorite "comfort foods" when you fully expect your genes to provide good health and longevity? It's an outlook that sets one free of all responsibility.

I believe that genes are context-sensitive and, for the most part, we provide the context.

My belief is backed up by the following two books:
1) "The Dependent Gene", by David S. Moore, Ph.D.
2) "The Biology of Belief", by Bruce H. Lipton. Ph.D.

If you believe everything (for the purposes of this thread we're talking about degenerative diseases of the elderly) is genetic, what source(s) do you have to back up your belief? (The source should be something that we can check; we can't check your family history.)

Have fun. :)

[ilovetv]

I think you've started on a mistaken premise: that people believe "everything" is genetic regarding diseases.

From all the many discussions here about diet/nutrition being "everything" to prevention of dreaded disease, it has been said many times in all honesty that inherited genetics can--and do--often over-ride the best of nutritional and healthy lifestyle habits.

And nobody has said to avoid improving one's lifestyle/eating habits because their genes will out-gun them anyway.

Just as genetics is not "everything" to disease acquisition or not, neither is dietary intake and exercise "everything" to preventing it.

[Villages PL]

I think you've started on a mistaken premise: that people believe "everything" is genetic regarding diseases.

From all the many discussions here about diet/nutrition being "everything" to prevention of dreaded disease, it has been said many times in all honesty that inherited genetics can--and do--often over-ride the best of nutritional and healthy lifestyle habits.

And nobody has said to avoid improving one's lifestyle/eating habits because their genes will out-gun them anyway.

Just as genetics is not "everything" to disease acquisition or not, neither is dietary intake and exercise "everything" to preventing it.

In a recent discussion, which you took part in, there were one or two comments stating that "it's all genetic", and no one replied to it. No one challenged it. So I wondered if perhaps everyone was in agreement with it.
Rather than make it something between me and the poster(s) I thought I would open it up to all those who might be interested.

[graciegirl]

In a recent discussion, which you took part in, there were one or two comments stating that "it's all genetic", and no one replied to it. No one challenged it. So I wondered if perhaps everyone was in agreement with it.
Rather than make it something between me and the poster(s) I thought I would open it up to all those who might be interested.

You know Villages Pl. Most people as old as we are realize that a persons choices can alter the length of their lives. Most of us know that exercise and diet and being in a happy state can lengthen most lives and avoiding smoking and avoiding dangerous activities can help and having fun and getting enough sleep and enjoying activities that increase our heart rate and move our bodies around help too, to make us generally healthier and possibly allow us to live longer.

How long would that be? How much longer would we live if we ate your diet? How much longer would you live if you saw a doctor every three months and did everything he said to do? How much longer would we live if we lived in an optimal situation and didn't have money issues or kids who worried us?

Who really knows?

[jimbo2012]

I disagree, you can offset the effects of many genetics thru diet.

I would often hear oh yea everybody on that side of the family has heart problems, they died young.

The genetics of our parents unfortunately did not enjoy the benefits of today's medical miracles, and some of us will live long enough to enjoy the benefits of tomorrows medical break through.

It is a fact that vegetarians live on average up to 10 years longer and vegans up to 15 years.

ex. atherosclerosis can be reversed as well as type II diabetes with diet.

[Barefoot]

It is a fact that vegetarians live on average up to 10 years longer and vegans up to 15 years. ex. atherosclerosis can be reversed as well as type II diabetes with diet.

Those are interesting statistics. I don't doubt your word, but can you provide links to large studies done by well-known Medical Institutions? Does one have to be a life-long Vegetarian or Vegan to reap these benefits?

[jimbo2012]

"a large study by Loma Linda University. This phenomenal fact is echoed in multiple huge studies. In fact, the findings on vegetarian and vegan longevity are confirmed by the world’s largest population study on diet and health ever done. The comprehensive China Health Project study found that people who eat the least amount of fat and animal products have the lowest risks of cancer, heart attack and other chronic degenerative diseases.

Plus, a British study that tracked 6,000 vegetarians and 5,000 meat eaters for 12 years found that vegetarians were 40 percent less likely to die from cancer during that time and 20 percent less likely to die from other diseases.

So much for the old-fashioned notion that we need meat to be healthy. Fact is, the opposite is true. If the bonanza of spending many more years enjoying life with loved ones isn’t enough to leave animals off the dinner plate"

As to the second part of your question, with the changes we have have experienced personally, it appears not a life long issue IMO.

[ariel]

I would be interested in the actual references so I could read the study. I'm a vegetarian - not vegan; mostly because I never really liked the taste of meat. I was raised on a farm and visited the slaughterhouse a few times with my dad - that, over time, cured me from wanting to eat meat. However, I do have a lot of relatives who were meat eaters and they lived very long and active lives. So, again, I'd like to read the studies you cite. If one does choose to leave all meat out of their diet, they need to be careful to get the protein and other nutirents, generally provided by meat, from another source.

[jimbo2012]

If one does choose to leave all meat out of their diet, they need to be careful to get the protein and other nutirents, generally provided by meat, from another source.

This has been discussed before - protein, nutrients etc not being provided in a plant based diet :icon_hungry: is totally incorrect a myth.


The only supplement that may be needed is B12

U can simply Google those studies

[ariel]

I guess we read differnt studies :)

[Barefoot]

I guess we read differnt studies :)

Ariel, this is what I find very confusing. There seems to be no right or wrong answers. It's all in the eye of the beholder. There are studies which support numerous (and often conflicting) points of view.

I've never heard before that Vegans live up to 15 years longer than the rest of us.

[ariel]

Yes, Barefoot, very confusing. That's why I like to read the studies and even then it's hard to know their true value to the overall "body of knowledge". I look for any obvious bias of the researchers and sometimes it's hard to know unless you know who funded the study. All studies have limitations and the researchers are supposed to clearly state limitations. Also, I look to see if the study has been replicated and, if so, who did it and what were their findings...

This all is reason why I said in another thread a while back that moderation in life is probably the best approach to take. And, yes, I know someone will want to highlight the fact that my definition of moderation may be different to someone elses - so very true. For me, I've tried to decide how I want to live day to day in order to enjoy life and, perhaps in the process, extend it continuing to be healthy, and do the study to learn best how to do that.

[graciegirl]

Jimbo.

Are you referring to the study by Loma Linda on the effect of a vegetarian diet and increased exercise on diabetes in the black population of U.S. and Canada? I don't know of another one on the vegetarian diet from that institution.

They (Loma Linda) are currently studying the vegetarian diet and it's effect on small children.

I am not as up on things as I used to be so I very well could be wrong..

[Villages PL]

Ariel, this is what I find very confusing. There seems to be no right or wrong answers. It's all in the eye of the beholder. There are studies which support numerous (and often conflicting) points of view.

It seems to me that you have totally given up. And giving up means you can continue down the easier path of eating whatever you want, based on the concept of moderation. Is that a fair characterization?

It's not in the eye of the beholder.

Choose what's better for your health:

1) a small baked potato or a serving of potato chips/french fries?

2) a small apple or a serving of apple pie?

3) a high fiber diet or a low fiber diet?

4) a diet high in saturated fat or a diet with a small amount of good fat?

5) a diet high in animal protein and low in vegetables or a diet high in vegetables and low in animal protein? (A vegan diet is all the better.)

6) a diet with fruit for dessert and/or snacks, or a diet with processed desserts like ice cream or cookies.

7) a diet that calls for lots of processed foods like pizza, or a diet that eliminates processed foods.

Exactly what is it that you find confusing?

[jimbo2012]

Just read The China study, no one was influencing that one nor has the author had any ulterior motives to make money or sell products.

That is the most comprehensive study that I know of and all the top doctors in the field are on board with it's finding.

We (my wife and myself have read a lot on this subject, she jokes and says I've reached the end of diet info on Google.

IMO moderation is an excuse for lack of will power in certain individuals.

A drop of gas on fire...........basically what is happening is dopamine in the brain are released and your body develops a need for more and more sugars and processed food to satisfy that need.

That craving can be broken in about a month or two.

If you have medical issues or prefer to avoid them in the future and enjoy your children and grandchildren aka live longer/healthier without tons of meds and their side effects -- don't eat meat or processed food.

You can't say you should have if you're looking at the wrong side of the grass!


.

[Villages PL]

You know Villages Pl. Most people as old as we are realize that a persons choices can alter the length of their lives. Most of us know that exercise and diet and being in a happy state can lengthen most lives and avoiding smoking and avoiding dangerous activities can help and having fun and getting enough sleep and enjoying activities that increase our heart rate and move our bodies around help too, to make us generally healthier and possibly allow us to live longer.

How long would that be? How much longer would we live if we ate your diet? How much longer would you live if you saw a doctor every three months and did everything he said to do? How much longer would we live if we lived in an optimal situation and didn't have money issues or kids who worried us?

Who really knows?

Yes, I see your point. But I would put less emphasis on the length of life and more emphasis on striving for near term quality of life. Then, if you get the quality, the length of life is something that will naturally follow. I don't know whether I'll live to 90, 95, 100 or 115. But I'm definitely enjoying the quality that I have now.

I have observed people who were lucky to live a long life but suffered terribly during the last 10 to 15 years. And often it was needless. And of course there are people who live short lives and suffer at the end with cancer etc..

I don't understand the reasoning behind not eating the best diet because a long life is not guaranteed.

[pooh]

?....

I don't understand the reasoning behind not eating the best diet because a long life is not guaranteed.

And that could just be the answer for some, VillagesPL, life length is not guaranteed, and they prefer to do what they enjoy while they still have life, even if it means a shorter one.

[jimbo2012]

And that could just be the answer for some, VillagesPL, life length is not guaranteed, and they prefer to do what they enjoy while they still have life, even if it means a shorter one.

Not to sound harsh but isn't that selfish not only to your spouse but to others?

[graciegirl]

Not to sound harsh but isn't that selfish not only to your spouse but to others?

It would be selfish is you are the cook and big into a "program" and your spouse doesn't want to eat the same stuff.. ;)

[pooh]

Not to sound harsh but isn't that selfish not only to your spouse but to others?



It can be selfish indeed, however, it can be considered selfish in the other direction, too. One trying to do what is considered a way to potentially prolong life, or one allowing another to live in a fashion that makes that individual happy.
Sometimes we just have to accept others the way they are.

[jimbo2012]

You guys R funny, if you don't eat dead animals and processed food you can't be happy. :confused:

Is that what you're saying?

[graciegirl]

Boy Howdy.

[pooh]

You guys R funny, if you don't eat dead animals and processed food you can't be happy. :confused:

Is that what you're saying?

No....but some just absolutely will not eat vegetarian never mind vegan.

[jimbo2012]

Please explain why not.

[pooh]

Some might not like veggies, fruits, particular grains. The taste, texture, feel in the mouth is something they can't tolerate. Some may be born with particular food likes and dislikes. A good example for me is my son. From the day he started ingesting foods, he would absolutely NOT eat particular veggies, fruits, grains and those dislikes continue. At this point, he's 41, an executive chef, a wonderful husband, father of two children who enjoy a wide variety of fruits and veggies, and he still eats a rather limited variety of veggies/fruit.

Remember, one can take a horse to water, but can't make that horse drink. People will change if they want to, and then, if they don't suffer so to speak.

[eweissenbach]

Boy Howdy.

Triple Boy Howdy!

[eweissenbach]

Does not seem to me that the vegan/vegetarian posters are trying to win converts as much as they are trying to prove they are smarter than others, more informed, and more enlightened. If you really are interested in winning over people to your point of view you might try to be somewhat less condescending and insulting.

[TerpDawg]

Does not seem to me that the vegan/vegetarian posters are trying to win converts as much as they are trying to prove they are smarter than others, more informed, and more enlightened. If you really are interested in winning over people to your point of view you might try to be somewhat less condescending and insulting.

Boy Howdy!!!!!!!!

[jimbo2012]

Sorry guys, not my intent. :shrug:

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Some might not like veggies, fruits, particular grains. The taste, texture, feel in the mouth is something they can't tolerate. Some may be born with particular food likes and dislikes. A good example for me is my son. From the day he started ingesting foods, he would absolutely NOT eat particular veggies, fruits, grains and those dislikes continue. At this point, he's 41, an executive chef, a wonderful husband, father of two children who enjoy a wide variety of fruits and veggies, and he still eats a rather limited variety of veggies/fruit.

Remember, one can take a horse to water, but can't make that horse drink. People will change if they want to, and then, if they don't suffer so to speak.

Pooh........you're describing me as well. :D

A topic for a bit of research for those who might be curious: "Selective Eating Disorder". Here's a glimpse:

Selective eating disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_eating_disorder)

That's me almost to a "T" only I don't have any sort of the 'social stigma' associated with it. It's always a topic of much humor and joking around with people who know me.

My mom never made me eat things I didn't care for when I was little thus I wasn't exposed to lots of different foods. Very very few fruits, same with vegetables, no salads (never had one in my life and don't plan to), no pies (maybe chocolate would be o.k.).......it's a lot about how some foods taste but actually more to their consistency. If it's plain, bland, etc., I'm probably o.k. with it. If it's something sweet, I'm there! My sister, one grade ahead of me in school thus we were raised in exactly the same environment.........she'll eat anything!

Sandy, as well, will eat ANYTHING........but liver.

Not trying to stoke a debate of any sort - just tossing in my $.0295 worth......about how some people are just wired a bit different than others.

Bill :)

[mickey100]

This has been discussed before - protein, nutrients etc not being provided in a plant based diet :icon_hungry: is totally incorrect a myth.


The only supplement that may be needed is B12

U can simply Google those studies

I agree. I used to be a vegetarian, and read how one can combine certain grains, dairy products, etc., to make a complete protein. I've since become a meat eater, but we tend to have quite small portions, and dont' eat a lot of beef, more chicken and fish. We love our salads and fruits, and try to go organic when possible. I personally think exercise has a huge effect on our health, and can make up for many bad eating habits. I'm amazed at how some people let their bodies go. I work really hard at taking care of my body. Its the only one we have! Plus exercise just plain makes me feel better.

[Villages PL]

And that could just be the answer for some, VillagesPL, life length is not guaranteed, and they prefer to do what they enjoy while they still have life, even if it means a shorter one.

I see your point but sometimes I wonder if they have ever seen how life ends. If life would end neatly like switching off a light switch, I would say their plan is a good one. A good example might be sudden death from a heart attack. It's neat, clean and quick. And they might have just enjoyed a big buffet.

But most of the time life doesn't end neat, clean and quick. Therefore, it seems a bit short sighted, in my opinion. More often than not I think life ends agonizingly slow, with a great deal of suffering.

I've had two friends, one with cancer and one with a stroke, both of whom said to me, "I don't know why I can't die"! Obviously things did not go as they had planned. They thought they would just die and didn't imagine how long and drawn out the suffering would be.

It's fairly common knowledge (I've read this many times) that people who live long healthy lives usually die quickly and easily. Of course it's not something that everyone can do; I realize that. But that would be my goal.

An example of that: A man got a big write up in the daily Sun. He was going to celebrate his 100th birthday. There would be a party at KFC and everyone was invited. So I went. Meeting a 100 year old person was a first for me and I enjoyed the whole experience. About 4 years later I bumped into him at the Golden Corral. On his way to the front door he tripped and fell face first onto the parking lot. No big deal; he just got up like nothing had happened.

I kept track of him by looking for his name in the phone book. Every year his name was in the book. Finally, this year he was to be 109 in July. But shortly before his birthday I heard a doctor on the radio say that his 109 year old patient had died. It turned out to be the man I knew. The doctor said the man (his patient) was sitting in his living room and looked like he had just fallen asleep. And the amazing thing: The doctor said he never had anything wrong with him. His heart just stopped. This happens a lot to centenarians.

[pooh]

I see your point but sometimes I wonder if they have ever seen how life ends. If life would end neatly like switching off a light switch, I would say their plan is a good one. A good example might be sudden death from a heart attack. It's neat, clean and quick. And they might have just enjoyed a big buffet.

But most of the time life doesn't end neat, clean and quick. Therefore, it seems a bit short sighted, in my opinion. More often than not I think life ends agonizingly slow, with a great deal of suffering.

I've had two friends, one with cancer and one with a stroke, both of whom said to me, "I don't know why I can't die"! Obviously things did not go as they had planned. They thought they would just die and didn't imagine how long and drawn out the suffering would be.

It's fairly common knowledge (I've read this many times) that people who live long healthy lives usually die quickly and easily. Of course it's not something that everyone can do; I realize that. But that would be my goal.

An example of that: A man got a big write up in the daily Sun. He was going to celebrate his 100th birthday. There would be a party at KFC and everyone was invited. So I went. Meeting a 100 year old person was a first for me and I enjoyed the whole experience. About 4 years later I bumped into him at the Golden Corral. On his way to the front door he tripped and fell face first onto the parking lot. No big deal; he just got up like nothing had happened.

I kept track of him by looking for his name in the phone book. Every year his name was in the book. Finally, this year he was to be 109 in July. But shortly before his birthday I heard a a doctor on the radio say that his 109 year old patient had died. It turned out to be the man I knew. The doctor said the man (his patient) was sitting in his living room and looked like he had just fallen asleep. And the amazing thing: The doctor said he never had anything wrong with him. His heart just stopped. This happens a lot to centenarians.

He passed as we all wish to, at peace and hopefully with little or no pain. 109, wow!
It may seem shortsighted to you, but people are people, some are more in tune with the here and now, others are happier when they realize just what they may face, and plan ahead to minimize future suffering if they feel there is a way.

People are always taking risks, making an assumption that if they die, well, they die. They forget that they might NOT die and face long years of suffering. That's how people are. Everyone is unique, everyone sees the world differently.
We all have individual attitudes about how to live and enjoy. The thought of dying quickly or slowly doesn't always come to mind....some just live. When death comes, it will come and if suffering is a part of it, well, then it is.

[Barefoot]

Most of the time life doesn't end neat, clean and quick...,...More often than not I think life ends agonizingly slow, with a great deal of suffering.

This opens up another topic of assisted suicide. But I don't want to hijack this thread, and perhaps it's too grim a topic for a light-hearted website.

[NotGolfer]

I have several thoughts on this subject. I think degenerative diseases happen for a variety of reasons. One, is folks are living longer than they did years ago. Two, sometimes it's a genetic thing. Three, we're all growing older and this is just another thing that is one of the symptoms of that.

I have a number of degenerative issues....can't blame the relatives unless I have a recessive gene somewhere.

All I know is that we're not going to get out of this life, alive!! With this...I don't think it's up to the individual to decide when the "end" is to happen. But as someone else said, this is another subject altogether and will deal with the spiritual philosophies of folks. I think it's best left alone........

[graciegirl]

I have several thoughts on this subject. I think degenerative diseases happen for a variety of reasons. One, is folks are living longer than they did years ago. Two, sometimes it's a genetic thing. Three, we're all growing older and this is just another thing that is one of the symptoms of that.

I have a number of degenerative issues....can't blame the relatives unless I have a recessive gene somewhere.

All I know is that we're not going to get out of this life, alive!! With this...I don't think it's up to the individual to decide when the "end" is to happen. But as someone else said, this is another subject altogether and will deal with the spiritual philosophies of folks. I think it's best left alone........

As for me, your last statement is a known fact and there is no reason to dwell on it. We can choose to live life or adopt a lot of techniques and ways that may or may not give us some extra years. The secret is to keep laughing and keep moving and keep hugging.

[lightworker888]

who lived a long life eating really healthy, thanks to the wife's efforts to do so. They died in a car accident (or maybe it was a golf cart) and when they got to heaven they are told that anything they want is free for the asking, including great golf courses and long buffets. The husband turns to the wife and says " You and all those healthy foods. If I hadn't listened I could have been here sooner!"


LW888

[Taltarzac725]

The Jury Is Still Out - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/17/is-veganism-good-for-everyone/the-jury-is-still-out)

I wonder if the life expectancy of people in areas where meat is a luxury have had longer life expectancies than people in areas where meat is much more affordable??

[pooh]

The Jury Is Still Out - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/17/is-veganism-good-for-everyone/the-jury-is-still-out)

I wonder if the life expectancy of people in areas where meat is a luxury have had longer life expectancies than people in areas where meat is much more affordable??

Very interesting Tal, thanks for posting this article.

[jimbo2012]

Just keep in mind that is only an opinion of a blogger not a doctor that is in the field of nutrition.

[Barefoot]

Just keep in mind that is only an opinion of a blogger not a doctor that is in the field of nutrition.

True, but the blogger was a Vegan for nine years before quitting for health reasons! :confused:

[jimbo2012]

I didn't read where he said that, in any event depending on your own individual health issues if any, I suggest that you should monitor your vitals and have blood work done every 60 days or so, work with a doctor.

[senior citizen]

I see your point but sometimes I wonder if they have ever seen how life ends. If life would end neatly like switching off a light switch, I would say their plan is a good one. A good example might be sudden death from a heart attack. It's neat, clean and quick. And they might have just enjoyed a big buffet.

But most of the time life doesn't end neat, clean and quick. Therefore, it seems a bit short sighted, in my opinion. More often than not I think life ends agonizingly slow, with a great deal of suffering.

I've had two friends, one with cancer and one with a stroke, both of whom said to me, "I don't know why I can't die"! Obviously things did not go as they had planned. They thought they would just die and didn't imagine how long and drawn out the suffering would be.

It's fairly common knowledge (I've read this many times) that people who live long healthy lives usually die quickly and easily. Of course it's not something that everyone can do; I realize that. But that would be my goal.

An example of that: A man got a big write up in the daily Sun. He was going to celebrate his 100th birthday. There would be a party at KFC and everyone was invited. So I went. Meeting a 100 year old person was a first for me and I enjoyed the whole experience. About 4 years later I bumped into him at the Golden Corral. On his way to the front door he tripped and fell face first onto the parking lot. No big deal; he just got up like nothing had happened.

I kept track of him by looking for his name in the phone book. Every year his name was in the book. Finally, this year he was to be 109 in July. But shortly before his birthday I heard a a doctor on the radio say that his 109 year old patient had died. It turned out to be the man I knew. The doctor said the man (his patient) was sitting in his living room and looked like he had just fallen asleep. And the amazing thing: The doctor said he never had anything wrong with him. His heart just stopped. This happens a lot to centenarians.

If I didn't know you better, I'd think you were stalking that old gentleman by looking up his number in the phone book........etc.

What were you eating at the Golden Corral?

I hear you on the death of the elderly........sometimes it's just their time to go.

When we'd visit my mom, there was one 95 year old gentleman who was just a pleasure to chat with; he had a twinkle in his eye and remembered all the "long ago" stories of growing up in the mountains of Vermont, the black flies, his dad's camp, etc. and his love affair with his dear wife who had predeceased him.

He would tell me that he couldn't wait to join her. A year or so later, his back began acting up and he could hardly walk from his chair or bedroom to his bathroom without agonizing pain.......but he still had a delightful sense of humor and all his marbles..........finally, I guess the pain got to be too much for him. He told the head nurse that he was refusing all meals and just wanted WATER ..........he had no chronic or fatal illness other than that he was frail and his back hurt something fierce. Old bones, etc.......which is understandable.

They gave him milkshakes at first and then obliged him with the water alone. He kept telling me he wanted to "go and be with his wife".
He got his wish. We all missed him. The human body cannot go on forever.

My own Italian grandmother, who passed on Good Friday of 1965, told her daughters that she was "retiring to her bedroom and they shouldn't bother her"; she also gave instructions for NO FOOD.......JUST A PITCHER OF WATER......she also wanted to "be with her husband" who had died FIFTY YEARS PRIOR. She also had all her marbles so my aunts obliged her. It took about 7 days. She died one month before my wedding.

She had been mobile but was getting frail in her mid 90's. Died at 95.
Was very active until age 90. For all of our friends and other relatives, 91 seems to be the magic age.........those who do go beyond 100 have amazing genetics.

We know a 95 year old in town who still runs in senior marathons and he doesn't look a day older than 75.....if that. A cheerful, jolly, happy man.
So I agree with those who say joyfulness counts.

My grandmother had a good sense of humor. When my dad and mom brought me and my fiance to meet my grandmother, she took one look at this tall, green eyed sandy blonde haired "youth" and said in broken English......."Oh , he's so handsome........look at those green eyes......
TOO BAD HE'S NOT ITALIAN"...........we all laughed. She had come from Italy at age 16 to marry her Italian fiance from the same village.

SHE HAD BLUE EYES. EVERYONE ELSE HAD DARK BROWN EYES......EXCEPT HER ONE DAUGHTER, MY GODMOTHER.

So, at 95 she still was "sharp as a tack"........but no longer wanted to live...........although she could still admire a handsome young man.

Nowadays, NO ONE HAS TO SUFFER WHEN THEY DIE.
We know a lot of people who have died recently.
They all were given morphine constantly and no one suffered, believe me.

[senior citizen]

p.s.
Just a memory of another 95 year old gentleman who died, but had waited till his son flew in from Portland, Maine.............he was sitting up in the chair in his hospital room..........not in any pain at all........had the last conversation with his youngest son.......then had some breathing difficulty which gave him a tiny bit of anxiety (as the son told me on the telephone; this was a distant cousin).......the nurse gave him a shot of morphine and he peacefully left this earth.

He had been at home until that day, with end stage lung cancer..........never smoked a day in his life; was a librarian.........anyway, I was told it was a peaceful death as was my mom's a peaceful death as I had sat with her all day at the nursing home by her bedside.

My librarian cousin also had his wonderful intelligence and joy of living right up to the end........but kept saying, as did all the others............"I want to join my wife".
She had died years earlier.

I know the spirit lives on............but that's another discussion........

[Barefoot]

Just keep in mind that is only an opinion of a blogger not a doctor that is in the field of nutrition.

True, but the blogger was a Vegan for nine years.


I didn't read where he said that,

It was mentioned in the leadup to the article:

"Rhys Southan was vegan for nine years before quitting for health reasons. He critiques the arguments for veganism on his blog Let Them Eat Meat."

[jimbo2012]

That link went no place with any explanation as to what the issues were.

But the interesting or strange thing is that article was his comment

"nutrient missing from veggies. Creatine, carnitine, taurine, cholesterol, DHA, EPA, menaquinone and retinol are sparse to nonexistent in plants."

Seeing cholesterol in that list made me laugh. I may suffer from a cholesterol deficiency being a vegan. Bwaahahahha. ie: 134

"They are “inessential” because our bodies make them from other substances, but our bodies' conversion abilities vary and deficiencies may go undetected."

Did he ever get a blood test?

There is, of course, truth that any one individual may have issues that make them avoid certain foods for allergic reasons but in truth our systems function very similarly.
The one big difference between us all is on the emotional side, and how this affects our perceived choices is terribly important. Our attitudes and mindset are huge variables in setting our nutritional directions.

Barefoot, the choice is yours what change you care to make or not, I led you to several great sources of info....


.

[Villages PL]

[QUOTE] NO ONE HAS TO SUFFER WHEN THEY DIE.

WHY ALL THE SHOUTING? I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE!

We know a lot of people who have died recently.
They all were given morphine constantly and no one suffered, believe me.

I believe you but I wasn't talking about that. Example: The man who had a stroke was confined to his appartment and couldn't go for his daily walks. He couldn't drive his car. He had to have a 24 hour home health aid to cook, shop, bathe and help him on and off the toilet. And for about 15 years leading up to that he had many medical proceedures for heart trouble. THEY DON'T GIVE MORPHINE FOR THESE ISSUES!

My aunt had a radical mastectomy and when the cancer came back she had almost half her brain removed. Then she took lots of prescription drugs and later suffered kidney failure. Most people don't know the miserable life of someone on kidney dialysis. After a long time on dialysis the cancer came back behind her eye and was inoperable. She may or may not have had morphine at the very end but that's not the part of her suffering I was referring to.

The above man was her long time friend and they could no longer see each other because he was confined to his appartment and she went to assisted living. It was a very depressing situation for both of them because they used to see each other every day.

The man I had referred to with cancer was my neighbor. His suffering came when he had to go for chemotherapy. Evidently, at his age it must have been very difficult for him as he was living alone. He was the one who was wishing he would die. And my Aunt's friend said the same.

[graciegirl]

I wonder what the point of this thread is. And the other threads along the same lines.

I just can't seem to feel the good will by the proponents of the life style they think is so healthy. I wonder what the motivating factor is in this desire to instruct. Is it the fear of death?

The OP seems to worry a great deal about death and the ending of life.

No matter what is said, it is challenged.

It sort of feels like a pithing contest.

[Villages PL]

I wonder what the point of this thread is. And the other threads along the same lines.

This is the first thread that I know of on genetics. But even if it was the second or third, are you in charge of deciding what is acceptable for this board?

I just can't seem to feel the good will by the proponents of the life style they think is so healthy. In fact the OP seems to worry a great deal about death and the ending of life.

You were the one who raised the issue of length of life, not me. That's what lead the discussion in that direction. I simply responded to it. Then others picked up your lead and I responed to it again.

Is it good will on your part to constantly object to any thread promoting a healthy lifestyle? Where is the good will in that?


No matter what is said, it is challenged. It sort of feels like a pithing contest.

Yes, I also notice you following all of these threads and challenging anyone who starts a thread for the purpose of promoting or informing others about health. Then when I respond you try to make me the bad guy?

[Moderator]

A reminder to discuss the topic and not each other, please.

Thank you,

Moderator

[jimbo2012]

I wonder what the point of this thread is. And the other threads along the same lines.

I just can't seem to feel the good will by the proponents of the life style they think is so healthy. I wonder what the motivating factor is in this desire to instruct. Is it the fear of death?

Far from it, I thought it was the joy of living a long healthy life.

I'm sure that people that think diet is BS and rather pop pills don't follow these threads anyway.

I have personally received many emails and PM's regarding the vegan diet, that is enough motivation for me to bring to light info that is appropriate to medical & heath discussions.


.

[senior citizen]

[quote=senior citizen;548405]



WHY ALL THE SHOUTING? I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE!



I believe you but I wasn't talking about that. Example: The man who had a stroke was confined to his appartment and couldn't go for his daily walks. He couldn't drive his car. He had to have a 24 hour home health aid to cook, shop, bathe and help him on and off the toilet. And for about 15 years leading up to that he had many medical proceedures for heart trouble. THEY DON'T GIVE MORPHINE FOR THESE ISSUES!

My aunt had a radical mastectomy and when the cancer came back she had almost half her brain removed. Then she took lots of prescription drugs and later suffered kidney failure. Most people don't know the miserable life of someone on kidney dialysis. After a long time on dialysis the cancer came back behind her eye and was inoperable. She may or may not have had morphine at the very end but that's not the part of her suffering I was referring to.

The above man was her long time friend and they could no longer see each other because he was confined to his appartment and she went to assisted living. It was a very depressing situation for both of them because they used to see each other every day.

The man I had referred to with cancer was my neighbor. His suffering came when he had to go for chemotherapy. Evidently, at his age it must have been very difficult for him as he was living alone. He was the one who was wishing he would die. And my Aunt's friend said the same.



Yes, I can imagine the scenario you paint and can remember it well as I watched elderly loved ones pass away “slowly”.

Life isn’t fair at times. Not every death is quick and neat. It’s different for everyone.
I could relate to that home health aide you mentioned as I cared for my mom with Alzheimers in my own home until near the very end.

At that time she had to go into a skilled nursing home as I could no longer bathe her; but I do “hear you”. It’s a sad progression for some elderly.


However, if you look at it from a different perspective..........it’s a learning experience for someone else.

It was for me as it is for other caregivers and other family members as well who are just entering that final phase.


I can “top you” on horrible ways to “pass”. We have two elderly gentlemen, both in their 80’s, one an uncle; the other a distant cousin.


Both died in Florida, living alone in a mobile home (or trailer).........no one checked on them in the heat of summer.

Both expired on their sofa / couch..........when found, it wasn’t a pretty sight to behold....given the heat and humidity.

My mom was told her baby brother, 87, had maggots on him. Ditto for the distant cousin of an inlaw of ours.......also late 80’s.


They had each lost their lifelong spouses earlier...........and it wasn’t until some of the out of state children received no response, did someone check in on them.


The ones we’ve seen die, were all in a hospital setting due to the end of life after long term illness......some in Hospice, some just after “comfort” or “palliative care”.

Those were peaceful and the staff was wonderful in all cases.


But even those with PERFECT HEALTH.........can die in the blink of an eye up here.........young people, middle aged people, etc.......if their car collides with a MOOSE or DEER or ice patch.

No sense to become obsessed with death. Just enjoy the life you have now. Look at the unsuspecting folks of all ages who got on the planes September 11th on a beautiful autumn day.
They didn’t know it would be their last one on earth. I can’t even imagine the fear they must have felt. Or, our brave soldiers overseas....thinking the war is winding down. One never knows.

[senior citizen]

It can be selfish indeed, however, it can be considered selfish in the other direction, too. One trying to do what is considered a way to potentially prolong life, or one allowing another to live in a fashion that makes that individual happy.
Sometimes we just have to accept others the way they are.


Yes, as I've tried to say in the past........no one can truly change their spouses habits........whether it's being a chain smoker for 50 years or enjoying key lime pie and cookies for dessert.......mine would certainly rather have the potato chips than a baked potato (which is what I would choose)........

I'm thinking that a single man, never been married,never had children, never had inlaws to invite over for family gatherings (and they are all different in their tastes and beliefs)........would not understand what the wives of our generation has been through these past several decades.

Years ago, people enjoyed feasting on holidays. Now , many are choosy about what they consume, due to dietary restrictions or medical health issues........which I "get".

However, it is hard on the preparer of food, the shopper of groceries , to oblige everyone...........if I put out al raw veggies and cooked veggies , all of which I love.........the meat eaters would not be happy. Our adult children have friends who are vegans.........I prepare food for them. I also prepare for everyone else.......it's like running a restaurant these days.

Can't go wrong with a big fresh shrimp platter with cocktail sauce and lemon wedges........for most folks.........and lots of crudites for the vegans...........good thing I'm half Italian and like to cook in volume and can prepare many varieties of food........something for everyone...including gooey desserts. Never seen a man pass that up.

Wives usually oblige the husband's tastes........or end up in divorce court. I know quite a few of those who wouldn't ALLOW their husbands to watch television.

It doesn't pay to wage battle over every little morsel they consume. No one can force an adult male (or woman) to change their eating habits........they can suggest, they can mention what they've read, etc...........but ultimately, it's up to the individual.

I don't think a single man who has never had children can understand this logic. I'm sure the women know exactly what I'm saying.

This is why, as we get older........it's much easier to GO OUT AND EAT.
Our guests can then choose what they want from the menu. But often we still have to host big gatherings when the kids all return home with the grandchildren and everyone wants to see them...........this is when I feel like I'm cooking for an army............of varying tastes and I do try to oblige those with different choices of food.

Nothing in this life is black or white. One person's perspective is only from where that person is coming from..........it doesn't necessarily jive with how the rest of us live or have lived.

WE all know what is healthy vs. what is NOT healthy.
But living the life of a rigid vegan is not always easy when other mainstream folks are included.....or lived with.

[Villages PL]

I wonder if the life expectancy of people in areas where meat is a luxury have had longer life expectancies than people in areas where meat is much more affordable??

There was a long term (25yr.) population study of Okinawans. The book that describes it came out in 2001: "The Okinawa Program"

Americans eat a lot more animal protein as follows: (percentages are by weight)

..........................................Okinawan s...................Americans...............

Meat/poultry/eggs.....................3%....................... ......29%...................

Fish.........................................11%.. .........................< 1%................

Dairy.......................................< 2%............................23%................

Total animal protein..................16%...................... ...53%...........


Yearly cancer deaths per 100,000 people:

............................................Okinaw a..........................U.S.................

Breast........................................6... ..............................33................

Ovarian.......................................3... ...............................7.................

Prostate......................................4... ..............................28..............

Colon..........................................8.. ................................19.............


Note: You might also find it interesting that Okinawans eat a lot more vegetables than Americans: 34% vs 16%. And Okinawans have 50% less risk for hip fracture, even though Americans eat substantially more dairy products. What does that tell you about dairy?

Life expectancy for Okinawans: 81.2 years

Life expectancy for Americans: 76.8 years

[Villages PL]

Nothing in this life is black or white. One person's perspective is only from where that person is coming from..........it doesn't necessarily jive with how the rest of us live or have lived.

Well, with all due respect, I have to say that this has never been about the problems that families have. Of course all families have problems. This is about what constitutes a healthy diet.

WE all know what is healthy vs. what is NOT healthy.
But living the life of a rigid vegan is not always easy when other mainstream folks are included.....or lived with.

I would hesitate about speaking for everyone. In my experience, not everyone knows what is healthy vs. what is not healthy. Why do we have Weight Watchers in the Villages? Why do we have weight loss clubs in the Villages? Why do we have a very large diabetes club in The Villages? Why do we have the club, "Eat Right For Your Blood Type"? We also have a few vegan clubs where people exchange ideas. There are also a few other businesses located in The Villages that cater to people who are willing to pay for weight loss solutions. I think one of them is Medi-fast.

I would never presume to speak for everyone.

Anecdote 1) One day I was having a discussion with my neighbor in The Villages. She was looking for ideas on how to lose weight. So I said, "Well, one idea is to eliminate processed foods that contain added sugar". And she said, "We need sugar in our diet; we can't live without sugar!" She was obviously confused. We do need glucose to function but we can get that from eating natural whole foods. We don't need processed foods with added sugar.

2) When I was a care giver for my mother a social worker came over for a vist. She mentioned that she switched over to a vegetarian diet to lose weight but wasn't having any luck. After a few minutes of talking about it she mentioned that she liked to snack on hard candy in the evening. I told her that could be the problem......the extra (empty) calories. She was suprised to hear that! And she was not an uneducated person. She was a social worker for the state of Florida.

3) A woman who died on my street was said the be the most health minded of anyone, yet she died relatively young. This was supposed to be an example of how it doesn't pay to try to be healthy......because you never know. Well, a year later I was told that she did a lot of baking. They said she was baking something every day. So I said, "I thought she was supposed to be very health minded. Eating a lot of baked goods isn't healthy." And they said, "Yes, it's healthy when it's FRESH baked!! (Think white flour, sugar, low fiber etc..)

[sueandskip]

I have always believed in pre determined...If you believe we all have a pre determined experation date , then whats the point ?

[sueandskip]

This opens up another topic of assisted suicide. But I don't want to hijack this thread, and perhaps it's too grim a topic for a light-hearted website.

I believe in assisted ending of life....Why not ? Who's buisness is it anyway?
My life my choice,,,we kill unborn babies everyday , so why not let a grown up decide for him or herself ? Who am I to decide for you ? Who are you to decide for me ? In many countries it is already legal and here in the U.S. I believe it is legal in Oregon , but with restrictions... More impotantly it's your right. Just like freedom of speech and don't let anyone take it from you...Whoops they already did and do !

[jimbo2012]

I have always believed in pre determined...If you believe we all have a pre determined experation date , then whats the point ?

Suppose you're right, say your date is 10 years out.

Do you want to have those last few years in good health active enjoying your time you worked for?

Or spend those remaining years limited by poor health, or having your chest cracked open etc.

As a fatalist you must believe you r here for a pre-determined purpose, if you don't stay in good heath you may not be able to accomplish that purpose and then what :shrug: :1rotfl:

[graciegirl]

The way to change anyone's mind about your philosophy or your religion or your regemin is to live well, and to act in such a way that folks enjoy being with you and to be so happy that others see a reason to emulate your ways.

I heard a sermon once about Christianity that really struck my heart. The priest said;

"We are called to preach the Gospel, even if we have to use words."

Continuing to repeat and repeat, to harp on the same subject again and again is not teaching. It is parenting.

I very much appreciate those things I have learned from Jimbo and VillagesPl. and have changed my diet in a couple of ways due to the research that they have linked me to from medical teaching institutions that I trust. I am eating less beef and more chicken and fish.

I should maybe rethink my drinking habits. I don't come anywhere close to the case of beer my father drank daily before he died at 94.

[jimbo2012]

I very much appreciate those things I have learned from Jimbo and VillagesPl. and have changed my diet in a couple of ways due to the research that they have linked me to from medical teaching institutions that I trust. I am eating less beef and more chicken and fish.

I should maybe rethink my drinking habits. I don't come anywhere close to the case of beer my father drank daily before he died at 94.

WOW!!!! or Boy Howdy!!!

You made my day.

I hope to meet you on the 21st, oh the drinking in "moderation" is really ok.


.

[Villages PL]

The way to change anyone's mind about your philosophy or your religion or your regemin is to live well, and to act in such a way that folks enjoy being with you and to be so happy that others see a reason to emulate your ways.

If I tried living well and acting in a good way as a means to getting my ideas across, would anyone see it on the internet? I'm not exactly sure how that works.

Continuing to repeat and repeat, to harp on the same subject again and again is not teaching. It is parenting.

That's because, on the internet, there are constantly new people passing through who haven't heard the message. And as long as someone responds, especially in negative ways, there is something to discuss. There are always new threads on the board with subjects I'm not interested in so I don't participate. But when I do that, I'm "acting in a certain way," but I guess no one sees it. So I have to say it: If a thread is not of interest, why participate?

I very much appreciate those things I have learned from Jimbo and VillagesPl. and have changed my diet in a couple of ways due to the research that they have linked me to from medical teaching institutions that I trust. I am eating less beef and more chicken and fish.

Always glad to be of help. Sorry if that sounds kind of flat but I'm not very good at taking compliments. Especially after being worn-down by all the naysayers. I need to get some rest. ;)

I should maybe rethink my drinking habits. I don't come anywhere close to the case of beer my father drank daily before he died at 94.

Are you a beer drinker? How can anyone drink beer and maintain a normal weight? I know I would feel bloated if I drank just one.

[pooh]

Each day brings something new.

Genetics Breakthrough Changes Thinking About DNA (http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20120907/genetics-breakthrough-changes-thinking-about-dna?src=RSS_PUBLIC)

Soon, maybe we'll have more answers to the topic question in this thread....Degenerative diseases of the Elderly...Are They All Genetic?

Might not be everyday reading for many of you, but hopefully, this can help us all.

[Villages PL]

Each day brings something new.

Genetics Breakthrough Changes Thinking About DNA (http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20120907/genetics-breakthrough-changes-thinking-about-dna?src=RSS_PUBLIC)

Soon, maybe we'll have more answers to the topic question in this thread....Degenerative diseases of the Elderly...Are They All Genetic?

Might not be everyday reading for many of you, but hopefully, this can help us all.

USF Health Alliance had a lecture on this subject several months ago and a doctor suggested that it probably won't help us in our lifetime. Most doctors will never say that genes are "context sensitive" because that would suggest that we can do something for ourselves now. And doing something for ourselves has nothing to do with the practice of medicine. The USF Health Alliance, and those doing genetic research, would rather have us just wait and do nothing, rather than cause a distraction from research.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

As a fatalist you must believe you r here for a pre-determined purpose, if you don't stay in good heath you may not be able to accomplish that purpose and then what :shrug: :1rotfl:
Jimbo for a moment lets assume that your belief in the way you live is right. Who though is to say what the pre-determined purpose of one life is? maybe the pre-determined purpose is ill health and by accomplishing ill health medical knowledge is advanced and thousands of others enjoy the benefits of one person accomplishing their pre-determined purpose, ill health, who knows?

[lightworker888]

That is so true. Can't tell you what a gift my late husband's early death from colon cancer has been to all of us. He truly was a gift both in life and in death and I was truly blessed to have had him in my life if only until he was 37.

I never would have learned and wanted to learn all that I have since then and my second husband too is a blessing as he has encouraged me to continue on this path, which he had too had been on.

We don't know why things happen the way they do, but there is a silver lining to every apparent misfortune and it isn't usually seen except in hindsight.

Thank you for pointing this out. It is such an important perspective and can add so much joy to your life. No one benefits from staying stuck in sad memories.

LW888

[Cantwaittoarrive]

That is so true. Can't tell you what a gift my late husband's early death from colon cancer has been to all of us. He truly was a gift both in life and in death and I was truly blessed to have had him in my life if only until he was 37.

I never would have learned and wanted to learn all that I have since then and my second husband too is a blessing as he has encouraged me to continue on this path, which he had too had been on.

We don't know why things happen the way they do, but there is a silver lining to every apparent misfortune and it isn't usually seen except in hindsight.

Thank you for pointing this out. It is such an important perspective and can add so much joy to your life. No one benefits from staying stuck in sad memories.

LW888

LW888 what a GREAT attitude and outlook on life.

[jimbo2012]

Jimbo for a moment lets assume that your belief in the way you live is right. Who though is to say what the pre-determined purpose of one life is? maybe the pre-determined purpose is ill health and by accomplishing ill health medical knowledge is advanced and thousands of others enjoy the benefits of one person accomplishing their pre-determined purpose, ill health, who knows?

I'm not touching that one..............................

[Villages PL]

Jimbo for a moment lets assume that your belief in the way you live is right. Who though is to say what the pre-determined purpose of one life is? maybe the pre-determined purpose is ill health and by accomplishing ill health medical knowledge is advanced and thousands of others enjoy the benefits of one person accomplishing their pre-determined purpose, ill health, who knows?

That's right, who is to say what the purpose is? No one! So let's just do our best. What's the alternative, to do our worst? Even if we, here in The Villages, all enjoyed excellent health, there would still be millions of people in poor health. I'll be content to let others offer up their poor health for the advancement of medical knowledge.

[graciegirl]

USF Health Alliance had a lecture on this subject several months ago and a doctor suggested that it probably won't help us in our lifetime. Most doctors will never say that genes are "context sensitive" because that would suggest that we can do something for ourselves now. And doing something for ourselves has nothing to do with the practice of medicine. The USF Health Alliance, and those doing genetic research, would rather have us just wait and do nothing, rather than cause a distraction from research.

None of us can know what the entire medical community thinks or what their motives are. There are many doctors to choose from in this world and so far I have had some very ethical, very well educated physicians who were focused on doing their job right and who followed the Hippocratic oath .

I am surprised, because of my experiences with doctors to meet people who think that the entire medical community are out to delude them.

I trust the doctors we consult more than I would trust a layman who has a theory .

[Villages PL]

None of us can know what the entire medical community thinks or what their motives are. There are many doctors to choose from in this world and so far I have had some very ethical, very well educated physicians who were focused on doing their job right and who followed the Hippocratic oath .

All of your above statements are true but you do not take into account the fact of their education, training, desire to try something different and time constraints. For the most part they are educated and trained to treat symptoms with medications.

I am surprised, because of my experiences with doctors to meet people who think that the entire medical community are out to delude them.

For the most part, doctors are as unknowledgeable about nutrition as the general population. Although, I'm sure they know certain things like not to combine grapefruit with certain meds. etc..

I trust the doctors we consult more than I would trust a layman who has a theory .

Trust them for what? That's the all important question. I'm sure they are very good at prescribing medicine, inserting stints, doing bypass operations and removing prostates etc.. In other words, they are very good at practicing medicine as usual. It's profitable.