Has anyone else seen the newspaper photos

[senior citizen]

Has anyone else seen the newspaper photos of U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens' body?

Has anyone else read the translations of the Arabic newspapers in the mideast reporting what actually happened?

Has anyone else read the online news, as reported by those in Libya and Egypt .........or seen the graphic photos?

It's too horrendous to repeat here, however, just wondering why our media is not reporting the truth, if it be the case........

After reading the arabic newspaper accounts and seeing the photos late yesterday, we are beginning to wonder about the news we do get on t.v. as all major networks remain mum.

[graciegirl]

Who knows why. Maybe because of his family.

[Bogie Shooter]

Has anyone else seen the newspaper photos of U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens' body?

Has anyone else read the translations of the Arabic newspapers in the mideast reporting what actually happened?

Has anyone else read the online news, as reported by those in Libya and Egypt .........or seen the graphic photos?

It's too horrendous to repeat here, however, just wondering why our media is not reporting the truth, if it be the case........

After reading the arabic newspaper accounts and seeing the photos late yesterday, we are beginning to wonder about the news we do get on t.v. as all major networks remain mum.

And what, in your opinion, is the truth?

[redwitch]

Does showing a mutilated body make it any less horrifying? Yes, it was a huge tragedy. Yes, it was ugly. But, so far as I know, news media rarely show truly horrific photos. Personally, I think this is a good thing. Report the news, don't sensationalize it. A picture of a body blown to pieces is not necessary to get the facts across.

As to the Arabic newspapers, some said some pretty vile things. Others showed great sympathy and regret. (Kinda sounds like the Times vs. the Globe in the U.S. to me.) So, what is the point of printing the hatred? To create more hatred between Americans and Muslims? Seems like there's more than enough of that already.

Sorry, I don't get your point and I think I'm glad I don't.

[Taltarzac725]

Does showing a mutilated body make it any less horrifying? Yes, it was a huge tragedy. Yes, it was ugly. But, so far as I know, news media rarely show truly horrific photos. Personally, I think this is a good thing. Report the news, don't sensationalize it. A picture of a body blown to pieces is not necessary to get the facts across.

As to the Arabic newspapers, some said some pretty vile things. Others showed great sympathy and regret. (Kinda sounds like the Times vs. the Globe in the U.S. to me.) So, what is the point of printing the hatred? To create more hatred between Americans and Muslims? Seems like there's more than enough of that already.

Sorry, I don't get your point and I think I'm glad I don't.

I agree with Redwitch. No reason to fan the flames as they are already burning too brightly because of that offensive movie The Innocence
of Muslims and mass hysteria surrounding it. Fanned by unprincipled bloggers and journalists.

[BobKat1]

I agree with others, and don't see the point, of showing more graphic pictures following this tragic event.

We know what happened, and know the outcome, and I'm sure more details will follow.

[senior citizen]

I totally understand the sensitivity of the situation and would not want the elderly step father, mother, other family members to experience any more grief than they already have. However, not because of wanting to fan the flames of whatever as I am a Pacifist by nature........but my husband was saying we should CUT OFF ALL FIANANCIAL AID to these terrorists' home countries. When he told me the amount that we dole out to them, it blew my mind. I realize not all people are bad, however, I do believe in truth in journalism. I was just wondering if anyone else read what we read....or saw the photos. Many of the reporters seemed extremely somber, with good right to be. We have friends who are overseas in those countries right now. I'm at a scarcity of words here lest I get a second warning when I never ever posted anything at all in the "p" realm..........so you have to read between the lines. We are all horrified at what happened to our Americans abroad.

[Mr Hanky]

They are offended by a movie??? I am offended by their hatetred and violence.

[senior citizen]

Does showing a mutilated body make it any less horrifying? Yes, it was a huge tragedy. Yes, it was ugly. But, so far as I know, news media rarely show truly horrific photos. Personally, I think this is a good thing. Report the news, don't sensationalize it. A picture of a body blown to pieces is not necessary to get the facts across.

As to the Arabic newspapers, some said some pretty vile things. Others showed great sympathy and regret. (Kinda sounds like the Times vs. the Globe in the U.S. to me.) So, what is the point of printing the hatred? To create more hatred between Americans and Muslims? Seems like there's more than enough of that already.

Sorry, I don't get your point and I think I'm glad I don't.

Well,I do get your point.

His body wasn't blown to pieces. If the accounts in the mideast papers are accurate about what happened to our ambassador, Americans shouldn't have their heads in the sand about "buying friendship".

Not to get into religion, but what kind of a religion condones MURDER of innocent Navy Seals, ambassador, etc. all because of a silly YouTube movie that hardly had any hits previously............if they wanted to "do someone in" go after the film's producer.......not the innocents in Libya.

God rest all their souls.........

[graciegirl]

Well,I do get your point.

His body wasn't blown to pieces. If the accounts in the mideast papers are accurate about what happened to our ambassador, Americans shouldn't have their heads in the sand about "buying friendship".

Not to get into religion, but what kind of a religion condones MURDER of innocent Navy Seals, ambassador, etc. all because of a silly YouTube movie that hardly had any hits previously............if they wanted to "do someone in" go after the film's producer.......not the innocents in Libya.

God rest all their souls.........

I understood where you were coming from, Senior.

It is just horrible. All of it.

[784caroline]

Why are the Arabic newpapers more believable than the US papers?/ I think you are trying to stir a hornets nest with no more "reliable" information than any of us have.

[ilovetv]

Regarding....

"all because of a silly YouTube movie that hardly had any hits previously............if they wanted to "do someone in" go after the film's producer.......not the innocents in Libya.".......

The video is the easiest thing for them to grab onto to put the blame on all of us Americans, instead of on themselves for celebrating the 9-1-1 massacres with more savage butchery.

These attacks on our ambassadors and embassies did not just "happen to be" on September 11 by coincidence. They were celebratory.

[Geewiz]

It's unfortunate that we are a tribal specie. We excel at inventing distinctions to divide ourselves. Religion, race, ideology, north, south, old young - we are great at creating new reasons to hate and kill each other. We have developed in one respect...we are really very effective at killing large numbers very quickly. As our numbers increase and our demands for energy, fresh water and habitable land pit one tribe against another the killing business will be a growth industry. Maybe we should think of it as culling the herd.

[senior citizen]

Why are the Arabic newpapers more believable than the US papers?/ I think you are trying to stir a hornets nest with no more "reliable" information than any of us have.

No, not so. We were just shocked to read what we read yesterday.
People all over the internet are also shocked.

The papers were written over there, whereas our news coverage is still spotty as to what actually happened and still being checked out to be confirmed.

Not trying to stir a hornet's nest. I'd send the link if I could but do not think any of those links would be allowed on here.

Sorry to upset folks, but we have friends out that way and checked it all out due to our concern for them. Nuff said. Americans are being warned that it is dangerous in these mideast countries at the moment.

I doubt if anyone over there is reading TOTV.........truly. Peace.

P.S. I didn't say the Arab newspapers were more believable than our newspapers........I meant our television stations were not reporting the same news as the arabic world was reporting.........re the gruesome death of our ambassador.

[senior citizen]

p.s.
I didn't say that the Arab newspapers were more believable than our newspapers; I meant that our television stations (we watch ABC evening news and CBS evening news plus CNN and FOX on and off.........) were not reporting what the mideast newspapers were reporting.

[shcisamax]

And don' t think it will get better. I hesitate to say this and get certain people riled into talking about going vegan but so much of our water and grain goes into food animals to satisfy the meat craving without which the world population could be fed and watered. It will only get worse with China's development. If we were to cut our meat consumption, we would have enough to stop hunger. And when people are hungry, and have weapons, they are dangerous. The "West" has become a symbol of the haves versus the have nots. As for all the money that is sent abroad, I am appalled. For sure little of it gets to the people..and for sure not in our name. And now of all times, when our population is in such dire circumstance, it is time to cut the payoffs and help our own people.

[senior citizen]

Regarding....

"all because of a silly YouTube movie that hardly had any hits previously............if they wanted to "do someone in" go after the film's producer.......not the innocents in Libya.".......

The video is the easiest thing for them to grab onto to put the blame on all of us Americans, instead of on themselves for celebrating the 9-1-1 massacres with more savage butchery.

These attacks on our ambassadors and embassies did not just "happen to be" on September 11 by coincidence. They were celebratory.

I tend to agree. But why do we always have to apologize to them?
Americans get blamed for everything and we take it.

Obviously, we have to show our respect. Well, where is their respect for innocent human life?

Truly, I am a pacifist by heart..........but after reading what we read, I may join the other side.......the amount of money we send should be cancelled and funneled back into our desperate coffers. Again, you can't buy friendship.

[quirky3]

Well,I do get your point.

Not to get into religion, but what kind of a religion condones MURDER of innocent Navy Seals, ambassador, etc. all because of a silly YouTube movie that hardly had any hits previously............if they wanted to "do someone in" go after the film's producer.......not the innocents in Libya.


Please, sincerely, generalizing about a group of people is the worst thing anyone can do. We don't want Muslims to think that all Americans condone a film that a few people made, any more that we should think that "a religion" condones murder because a very small group of people engaged in violence. Like GeeWiz said, that kind of mindset is what leads to more "tribal warfare". Perspective makes such a difference.

[senior citizen]

I agree with others, and don't see the point, of showing more graphic pictures following this tragic event.

We know what happened, and know the outcome, and I'm sure more details will follow.

So you did read the version of his death as being similar as to what happened to the former leader of that country?

Forget the photo out of due respect to his loved ones.

If what they are claiming is true, we should close down all such lightly protected /unguarded residences.........meaning consulates.

[senior citizen]

Please, sincerely, generalizing about a group of people is the worst thing anyone can do. We don't want Muslims to think that all Americans condone a film that a few people made, any more that we should think that "a religion" condones murder because a very small group of people engaged in violence. Like GeeWiz said, that kind of mindset is what leads to more "tribal warfare". Perspective makes such a difference.

Did not mean "all"....meant the ones rioting....the extremists.
The ones who killed the Americans.

[Geewiz]

Beware of mixing apples and oranges. It appears that what happened in Libya was a pre-planned attack - probably in connection with 9/11. Egypt is a more troublesome situation. There is a real potential for problems there and we have sent very clear signals that the Egyptian government has international obligations to protect our embassy. Most aid to Egypt doesn't go to their government..it goes from our military direct to their military and is part of our "payment" for the Camp David accords. One could argue that the Egyptian military is the most pro-western element in that country.

[senior citizen]

It's unfortunate that we are a tribal specie. We excel at inventing distinctions to divide ourselves. Religion, race, ideology, north, south, old young - we are great at creating new reasons to hate and kill each other. We have developed in one respect...we are really very effective at killing large numbers very quickly. As our numbers increase and our demands for energy, fresh water and habitable land pit one tribe against another the killing business will be a growth industry. Maybe we should think of it as culling the herd.

Yes, but we are supposed to be over there nation building, helping folks, building schools to educate and show our friendship..........

This is why young idealistic highly educated "kids" from our town, plus all over our country, have gone over there to study further and to work amidst the people. **

My kids' generation love the entire world....if truth be told.
Many are teaching English, as the ambassador did, in the Atlas mountains. Others have been serving their country.

**not to be attacked and murdered.

[Bogie Shooter]

Did not mean "all"....meant the ones rioting....the extremists.
The ones who killed the Americans.

Those rioting are a very very small percentage of the populations. Punish the masses for the deeds of a few??

[quirky3]

......so much of our water and grain goes into food animals to satisfy the meat craving without which the world population could be fed and watered. It will only get worse with China's development. If we were to cut our meat consumption, we would have enough to stop hunger. And when people are hungry, and have weapons, they are dangerous. The "West" has become a symbol of the haves versus the have nots.

I definitely agree. I wish we had more global citizens working together to plan for future generations.

[paulandjean]

Paybacks are a bi,,,ch

[Villages PL]

I try not to get too excited or upset about things I can't do anything about.

[billethkid]

the main stream media is promoting and unfortunately far too many Americans are believing, the root cause of the attacks is the so called "movie".

In this regard I believe the foreign news reporting is far more accurate about the extent of the damage and the pre-meditated intent. The storming of the American Embassy and the killing of Americans was not a spontaneous event.

To those who serve in these areas of danger and harm it is perfectly clear what happened and what is happening.

The real issue is why is the American public being spoon fed the ridiculous front story of the "movie".

Another day and in another forum we might have been able to get down to some specifics......but not any more!!!

btk

[gomoho]

I agree it's a bunch of nonsense the media is reporting about the movie. That movie had been out for quite a while. Why would it take till 9/11 for them to be angered by it. The movie is simply an excuse for their violence against us. The truth of the matter is they hate us and want the infidels killed. And blaming the movie does exactly what they intended - turn the country against a citizen practicing the right of free speech rather then on the heinous crimes against our people and our embasy.

[Boudicca]

Sadly, after reading Senior Citizen's thread, I discovered a Youtube account of the horrible way in which our Ambassador died. His family were probably given the truthful, sad, horrific and terrifying account. However, we, the public were fed a soothing fairy story version which does us a disservice. I do not agree that we need to wallow in every disgusting detail, but the truth is so far from the fiction as to wonder "why this Pablum version?"

[Taltarzac725]

I agree it's a bunch of nonsense the media is reporting about the movie. That movie had been out for quite a while. Why would it take till 9/11 for them to be angered by it. The movie is simply an excuse for their violence against us. The truth of the matter is they hate us and want the infidels killed. And blaming the movie does exactly what they intended - turn the country against a citizen practicing the right of free speech rather then on the heinous crimes against our people and our embasy.

Do research on the Pillars of Islam. Think you will see that a movie like The Innocence of Muslims could trigger this kind of violence. http://carm.org/five-pillars-of-islam.

Cannot see how you can say that the perpetrators of the attack on the Libyan embassy are somehow not being blamed for these crimes. That embasy attack also sounds like a carefully planned military operation unlike the other attacks on other countries' embassies.

[senior citizen]

Sadly, after reading Senior Citizen's thread, I discovered a Youtube account of the horrible way in which our Ambassador died. His family were probably given the truthful, sad, horrific and terrifying account. However, we, the public were fed a soothing fairy story version which does us a disservice. I do not agree that we need to wallow in every disgusting detail, but the truth is so far from the fiction as to wonder "why this Pablum version?"

If you just type in his name, all of the mideastern papers are printing the gruesome photos and explaining the sequence of events, as told by eye witnesses, as to what actually happened to him. After his ordeal, supposedly while still alive, he was then put into the smoke filled room. I'm not a doctor but the discoloration around his mouth.....the disarray of his clothing, etc. or lack thereof, paint a quite different scenario than what our mainstream TELEVISION NEWS ANCHORS ARE REPORTING.
The papers are in Arabic language and translated into English but if anyone knows what was done to Gadaffi's body, the same was done to this poor guy, but prior to death. He was "missing" for quite a while.

We've heard several versions on the mainstream ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN stations.........flipping and flopping.

It appears to be a planned event to celebrate 911..........they merely might have used that dumb YouTube film as an "excuse". All monetary aid should be discontinued. With the heavily armed "youth" with automatic weapons, R.P.G.'s , machine guns, flack jackets / bullet proof vests, they were not the typical street thugs..........

I was just in touch with a young friend who is vice consul in a North African embassy........they are under high alert but she seems calm....is returning "home" next February.

When I looked at her alerts it mentioned that a few months earlier the extremists had been destroying cell towers in her city. Muslim extremists. There is a reason we are concerned. We know a lot of young people in that part of the world.........the unrest is up to 20 countries or more right now..........our son has traveled to some of these countries.

THANK YOU SHRANDELL..........I found it difficult to get my original point across,not knowing if this would be considered the "p" word or not.
However, believe me, Americans are OUTRAGED. That is, those who know the truth about what happened to him. Now, if they are doing forensics in Washington, maybe it will come out eventually, maybe not.

These extremists are out to kill everything America stands for.

Their "religion" is a very contradictory one. Does not everyone remember the head decapitations of Daniel Pearl and others??

People like our young friend go into foreign service, go to universities in Egypt and Syria, hoping to befriend them all, just as Chris Stevens did.......for what?

The old saying that "You can't buy friendship" is so true; we should recall all financial aid. Our country could sure use it. F.Y.I. check out how much we send to Libya........never mind all the rest of our "friends".

[gomoho]

My heart goes out to all the friend and families of folks serving our country in foreign lands. It is especially tough on parents who love their kids for wanting to make the world a better place, but daily face someone who may hate them enough to kill them. My daughter is in the peace corps (comes home in April 2013) and though she is not in a country at war she is frequently told how she is hated because she is an American and she is white. She works daily to help the youth on her island to understand America and what she stands for while she is dealing with their drug addictions. Bless her heart and may God keep all those serving safe from harm.

[Bogie Shooter]

If you just type in his name, all of the mideastern papers are printing the gruesome photos and explaining the sequence of events, as told by eye witnesses, as to what actually happened to him. After his ordeal, supposedly while still alive, he was then put into the smoke filled room. I'm not a doctor but the discoloration around his mouth.....the disarray of his clothing, etc. or lack thereof, paint a quite different scenario than what our mainstream TELEVISION NEWS ANCHORS ARE REPORTING.
The papers are in Arabic language and translated into English but if anyone knows what was done to Gadaffi's body, the same was done to this poor guy, but prior to death. He was "missing" for quite a while.

We've heard several versions on the mainstream ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN stations.........flipping and flopping.

It appears to be a planned event to celebrate 911..........they merely might have used that dumb YouTube film as an "excuse". All monetary aid should be discontinued. With the heavily armed "youth" with automatic weapons, R.P.G.'s , machine guns, flack jackets / bullet proof vests, they were not the typical street thugs..........

I was just in touch with a young friend who is vice consul in a North African embassy........they are under high alert but she seems calm....is returning "home" next February.

When I looked at her alerts it mentioned that a few months earlier the extremists had been destroying cell towers in her city. Muslim extremists. There is a reason we are concerned. We know a lot of young people in that part of the world.........the unrest is up to 20 countries or more right now..........our son has traveled to some of these countries.

THANK YOU SHRANDELL..........I found it difficult to get my original point across,not knowing if this would be considered the "p" word or not.
However, believe me, Americans are OUTRAGED. That is, those who know the truth about what happened to him. Now, if they are doing forensics in Washington, maybe it will come out eventually, maybe not.

These extremists are out to kill everything America stands for.

Their "religion" is a very contradictory one. Does not everyone remember the head decapitations of Daniel Pearl and others??

People like our young friend go into foreign service, go to universities in Egypt and Syria, hoping to befriend them all, just as Chris Stevens did.......for what?

The old saying that "You can't buy friendship" is so true; we should recall all financial aid. Our country could sure use it. F.Y.I. check out how much we send to Libya........never mind all the rest of our "friends".

Graphic picture ran in NY Times web page, Los Angeles Times, NY Daily News, as reported on The Huffington Post.

[BobKat1]

Graphic picture ran in NY Times web page, Los Angeles Times, NY Daily News, as reported on The Huffington Post.

Thanks for the information. With events like this there is always a lot of misinformation floating around and it will take longer than four days to completely sort out.

[jblum315]

What I heard was that Mr. Stevens was asphyxiated by smoke and flames and had no injuries from firearms.

[Boudicca]

What I heard was that Mr. Stevens was asphyxiated by smoke and flames and had no injuries from firearms.

Sadly, not so....

[NIPAS K-9]

does showing a mutilated body make it any less horrifying? Yes, it was a huge tragedy. Yes, it was ugly. But, so far as i know, news media rarely show truly horrific photos. Personally, i think this is a good thing. Report the news, don't sensationalize it. A picture of a body blown to pieces is not necessary to get the facts across.

As to the arabic newspapers, some said some pretty vile things. Others showed great sympathy and regret. (kinda sounds like the times vs. The globe in the u.s. To me.) so, what is the point of printing the hatred? To create more hatred between americans and muslims? Seems like there's more than enough of that already.

Sorry, i don't get your point and i think i'm glad i don't.

i agree...............

[senior citizen]

Graphic picture ran in NY Times web page, Los Angeles Times, NY Daily News, as reported on The Huffington Post.

Yes and some other Arabic papers had more than the two photos which the above papers ran......

From what I read, the NY Times was asked to remove the pictures and they refused.

On the one hand, everyone ....unless they are totally heartless and without compassion, understand not wanting to upset the grieving surviving family and friends of the murdered embassy workers, however, they were brutally murdered. The world should know.

Just like we "didn't know" what was happening in World War II re the concentration camps.........

Just like we shouldn't forget the senseless acts on 911 to innocent victims, these crimes shouldn't be glossed over. This was a well planned attack.

These embassy workers were devoted to their careers and representing our country in a good way. It all was so senseless.

I also read that the 30 plus workers , that did manage to escape, had some injuries, but haven't seen anything on those folks..........

[Boudicca]

There is poem some of you will surely know, which was written about the Holocust (by Martin Niemoller) which has a line about "not speaking up" until one day "they came for me" I've taken liberties with the exact lines, but you get the drift. I do not wish to see horrific photos of this latest senseless killing, but I am greatly concerned that we, as a nation, have not been told the truth concerning our Ambassador's horrible death and the official version is Pablum. Photographs are not necessary, but the truth, is... Just sayin...........

[senior citizen]

I agree it's a bunch of nonsense the media is reporting about the movie. That movie had been out for quite a while. Why would it take till 9/11 for them to be angered by it. The movie is simply an excuse for their violence against us. The truth of the matter is they hate us and want the infidels killed. And blaming the movie does exactly what they intended - turn the country against a citizen practicing the right of free speech rather then on the heinous crimes against our people and our embasy.

Ayup. We saw "The Dictator" last month. Now, why didn't they riot about that movie? I'm sure it's been out quite awhile.
I saw quite a few insulting things depicted in that film.

They were, as another poster said, celebratory over 911 anniversary.
What they did to the ambassador, etc. is far worse than any movie.
His body was not blown to pieces as others have thought.
The ends do not justify the means.**

Also, has anyone heard that the marines guarding the embassy were not allowed to have bullets in their firearms????

p.s. 1

**"The end justifies the means" is a phrase which means that, if you have a goal, it does not matter how you reach it, as long as you reach it.

p.s. 2
THE DICTATOR was satire but they called it comedy.
You had to watch it from that perspective.
The Dictator (2012) - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645170/)

p.s. 3
All of us of Italian descent have had to watch (and enjoy) films and t.v. shows depicting the murderous MAFIA.
Needless to say, we haven't gone out and rioted nor tortured innocent folks, nor murdered them.....simply because we were offended by the movies, t.v.shows, etc.

It's called being "civilized".

[senior citizen]

There is poem some of you will surely know, which was written about the Holocust which has a line about "looking the other way" until one day "they came for me" I've taken liberties with the exact lines, but you get the drift. I do not wish to see horrific photos of this latest senseless killing, but I am greatly concerned that we, as a nation, have not been told the truth concerning our Ambassador's horrible death. Photographs are not necessary, but the truth, is... Just sayin...........

AMEN

Lest they forget....

[senior citizen]

I definitely agree. I wish we had more global citizens working together to plan for future generations.

We know dozens upon dozens of such global citizens trying to achieve exactly what you mentioned.........a better world.

They all seem to go into their chosen fields naively but with great energy.
I'm sure their optimism does benefit some, however, there will always be the hordes of extremists who wouldn't care if the American was trying to help them or not.....and would respond with hatred for what they perceive America as standing for.

I used to think my husband was insensitive after 911 about lumping them all together.......however, enough is enough, as far as senseless rioting and murder. Obviously they have a lot of time on their hands in all these countries to be throwing stones in the city centers.

These youth are being riled up by other factions.......NOT the movie on YouTube....which hardly anyone even watched in the beginning.

How soon everyone forgets that this extremist factor are barbarians, as someone else kindly mentioned, and not shy about beheading folks.
God forbid they start up that again. Even a psychologist would not be able to "work" with this bunch.

[mickey100]

There is an interesting article today on the web CNN about Islamaphobia. Basically it says that many sincere and good-hearted evangelicals have had their minds prejudiced by Islamophobic broadcasts on so-called Christian television and radio. Lumping all Muslims together as though the small percentage that advocate violence is representative of Muslims in general is like lumping all Christians together when militant Christians bomb abortion clinics. Surely the Christian religion doesn't promote hate, intolerance and bigotry?

[graciegirl]

There is an interesting article today on the web CNN about Islamaphobia. Basically it says that many sincere and good-hearted evangelicals have had their minds prejudiced by Islamophobic broadcasts on so-called Christian television and radio. Lumping all Muslims together as though the small percentage that advocate violence is representative of Muslims in general is like lumping all Christians together when militant Christians bomb abortion clinics. Surely the Christian religion doesn't promote hate, intolerance and bigotry?

I used to agree with you on this but I am beginning to think that it is a wider and more serious issue than I thought.

Extreme views are just that...but extremists are killing people. That is the bottom line.

What do we as a people do about it? We ARE the sages, the aged good thinkers, the seniors, the people with longer lives and more life information... What are we supposed to think?

[Boudicca]

well said.... :bigbow:

[mickey100]

The point of the post was that extremists do not represent the majority. We don't judge all Christians by the actions of a few. We don't judge all Jews by the actions of a few militants. And as alarming as the media paints the Muslim uprisings now, they are not representative of the majority of those that practice Islam. Muslims everywhere are decrying the anti-Western violence.

[Taltarzac725]

The point of the post was that extremists do not represent the majority. We don't judge all Christians by the actions of a few. We don't judge all Jews by the actions of a few militants. And as alarming as the media paints the Muslim uprisings now, they are not representative of the majority of those that practice Islam. Muslims everywhere are decrying the anti-Western violence.

I agree with you mickey100 especially since there are quite a bit more Muslims than Christians in the world. Supposedly there are 2.1 billion Muslims. Muslim Population in the World (http://muslimpopulation.com/) http://www.religiouspopulation.com/

With Christians at 1.98 Billion.

There are some troubling aspects of the Muslim faith in the Jihad concept but Christianity also had its Holy Wars.

I do wish more people would actually do research on the history of the Arab People's rather than just spouting off on what some blowhard on some radio or other media station comes up with for his soundbite of the day.

[shcisamax]

Honestly, it is time the "good" Muslims condemn and start taking a harder line with their own "bad" Muslims. If they do not want to be judged with the extremists, they need to be just as vigilant and just as active in hunting them down and ELIMINATING them...before something like this happens. They need to have their own intel and need to get rid of the cancer...If they don't like being judged by the extremists, then get rid of the extremists. Don't expect us to do the work and then be upset if we become distrustful. And it is damn hard to figure out who stands where on this. Northeastern University just fired one of their revered professors because it turns out he has ties to the terrorist community.

You can't have it both ways. So in the words of I have no idea who, "Put up or shut up!"

[Taltarzac725]

Honestly, it is time the "good" Muslims condemn and start taking a harder line with their own "bad" Muslims. If they do not want to be judged with the extremists, they need to be just as vigilant and just as active in hunting them down and ELIMINATING them...before something like this happens. They need to have their own intel and need to get rid of the cancer...If they don't like being judged by the extremists, then get rid of the extremists. Don't expect us to do the work and then be upset if we become distrustful. And it is damn hard to figure out who stands where on this. Northeastern University just fired one of their revered professors because it turns out he has ties to the terrorist community.

You can't have it both ways. So in the words of I have no idea who, "Put up or shut up!"

You have to remember that the U.S. supported many of these extremists when they needed the natural resources these groups controlled. Think about Charlie Wilson's War in which the U.S. supplied weapons and other materials to the freedom fighters which was then fighting Soviet forces. Saddam Hussein was supported by the U.S. for a long time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Wilson's_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

Looks like many of these weapons and training provided by the U.S. to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan turn up in the hands of the Taliban later on.

My point in this is there do not seem to be any simple solutions to these problems.

[shcisamax]

My point is regardless of what the US has done, if the Muslim majority wants to get above this, they need to be the first in line to get rid of the extremists. There needs to be a line in the sand. You aren't going to be teaching and receiving the benefit of living in the USA and simultaneously be supporting terrorist activity. You cannot scream foul if you sit on the side and do nothing. No it isn't black and white and there is alot of nuance, BUT we come back to the central thought...evil happens when good men do nothing. Either they get going to solve THEIR problem, or they aren't going to get a get out of jail free card. This isn't a matter of a couple isolated incidents. This is a way of life and a culture that has come out of hatred and control. Yes, the Holy Wars were of the same horror same but that doesn't make it right and, in fact, they are condemned in history as a very black time. Sucked the life out of being a God loving Christian. Mainstream muslims need to decide where they stand and they need to stand up and do something besides talk about being falsely judged. My opinion.

[Taltarzac725]

My point is regardless of what the US has done, if the Muslim majority wants to get above this, they need to be the first in line to get rid of the extremists. There needs to be a line in the sand. You aren't going to be teaching and receiving the benefit of living in the USA and simultaneously be supporting terrorist activity. You cannot scream foul if you sit on the side and do nothing. No it isn't black and white and there is alot of nuance, BUT we come back to the central thought...evil happens when good men do nothing. Either they get going to solve THEIR problem, or they aren't going to get a get out of jail free card. This isn't a matter of a couple isolated incidents. This is a way of life and a culture that has come out of hatred and control. Yes, the Holy Wars were of the same horror same but that doesn't make it right and, in fact, they are condemned in history as a very black time. Sucked the life out of being a God loving Christian. Mainstream muslims need to decide where they stand and they need to stand up and do something besides talk about being falsely judged. My opinion.

It does look like some are trying to tone down the excesses of the Arab Spring movement from within their own countries.

[Suzi]

Absolutely, totally agree. People, no matter where they live, need to quit whinning and "wringing their hands, and clean-up their own house. Whether it is racial crime, a natural disaster, or religious violence, people ACT disconnected these days.....expect someone else to tend to the problems. A peaceful muslim, a storm victim or a minority in the inner city, need to be responsible for themselves and their neighbors. Peaceful muslims (presumably the majority) should be marching/demonstrating for that peace. Would show the world that they do NOT condone the violence of the few that is currently being represented by media coverage.

[shcisamax]

AND they should be hunting them down with the focus of a SWAT team.

[mickey100]

Absolutely, totally agree. People, no matter where they live, need to quit whinning and "wringing their hands, and clean-up their own house. Whether it is racial crime, a natural disaster, or religious violence, people ACT disconnected these days.....expect someone else to tend to the problems. A peaceful muslim, a storm victim or a minority in the inner city, need to be responsible for themselves and their neighbors. Peaceful muslims (presumably the majority) should be marching/demonstrating for that peace. Would show the world that they do NOT condone the violence of the few that is currently being represented by media coverage.

I agree that the muslims need to start controlling their extremist factions. I do think it is unrealistic to expect everyone to start marching for peace. Many people are just apathetic when it comes to politics and religion or they may be afraid of retaliation from the extremists. But I think the governments involved need to crack down, and I expect that they will.

[senior citizen]

THIS IS OLD NEWS FROM LAST YEAR..........BUT STILL FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
We have our Sunday morning news on re crazy Jihadists who are bent on harming Americans.......again, this warning was issued awhile ago but is still worth reading.
They are coached on how to speak Spanish and dress like Mexicans to blend in.....
Also they have ties to African based extremists....which is why, from day one, I was worried about people we know at embassies in Africa with a high muslim population.

Feds Issue Terror Watch for the Texas/Mexico Border

The Department of Homeland Security (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/terror-alert-mexican-border/#) is alerting Texas authorities to be on the lookout for a suspected member of the Somalia-based Al Shabaab terrorist group who might be attempting to travel to the U.S. through Mexico (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/mexico.htm#r_src=ramp).


The warning follows an indictment unsealed this month in Texas federal court that accuses a Somali man in Texas of running a “large-scale smuggling enterprise” responsible for bringing hundreds of Somalis from Brazil (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/brazil.htm#r_src=ramp) through South America and eventually across the Mexican border. Many of the illegal immigrants, who court records (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/terror-alert-mexican-border/#) say were given fake IDs, are alleged to have ties to other now-defunct Somalian terror organizations that have merged with active organizations like Al Shabaab, al-Barakat and Al-Ittihad Al-Islami.

In 2008, the U.S. government designated Al Shabaab a terrorist organization. Al Shabaab has said its priority is to impose Sharia, or Islamic law, on Somalia (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/somalia.htm#r_src=ramp); the group has aligned itself with Al Qaeda (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/iraq/al-qaeda.htm#r_src=ramp) and has made statements about its intent to harm the United States.

In recent years, American Somalis have been recruited by Al Shabaab to travel to Somalia, where they are often radicalized by more extremist or operational anti-American terror groups, which Al Shabaab supports. The recruiters coming through the Mexican border are the ones who could be the most dangerous, according to law enforcement (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/terror-alert-mexican-border/#) officials.

Security experts tell that the influx of hundreds of Somalis over the U.S. border who allegedly have ties to suspected terror cells is evidence of a porous and unsecured (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/terror-alert-mexican-border/#) border being exploited by groups intent on wrecking deadly havoc on American soil.

The DHS alert was issued to police and sheriff’s deputies in Houston, asking them to keep their eyes open for a Somali man named Mohamed Ali who is believed to be in Mexico preparing to make the illegal crossing into Texas. Officials believe Ali has ties to Al Shabaab, a Somali terrorist organization aligned with Al Qaeda, said Joan Neuhaus Schaan, the homeland security and terrorism fellow at Rice University’s Baker Institute, who has seen the alert.

An indictment was unsealed in Texas federal court earlier this month that revealed that a Somali man, Ahmed Muhammed Dhakane, led a human smuggling ring that brought East Africans, including Somalis with ties to terror groups, from Brazil and across the Mexican border and into Texas.

In a separate case, Anthony Joseph Tracy, of Virginia, who admitted to having ties to Al Shabaab, is currently being prosecuted for his alleged role in an international ring that illegally brought more than 200 Somalis across the Mexican border. Prosecutors say Tracy used his Kenya-based travel business (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/terror-alert-mexican-border/#) as a cover to fraudulently obtain Cuban travel documents for the Somalis. The smuggled Somalis are believed to have spread out across the United States and remain mostly at large, court records show.

Somalis are classified by border and immigration officials as “special interest” — illegal immigrants who get caught trying to cross the Mexican border into the U.S. who come from countries that are considered a high threat to the U.S., Neuhaus Schaan explained.

DHS did not respond to multiple e-mail and phone requests for comment.

In addition to the Somali immigration issue, Mexican smugglers are coaching some Middle Eastern immigrants before they cross the border – schooling them on how to dress and giving them phrases to help them look and sound like Latinos, law enforcement sources told.

“There have been a number of certain communities that have noticed this, villages in northern Mexico where Middle Easterners try to move into town and learn Spanish (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/terror-alert-mexican-border/#),” Neuhaus Schaan said. “People were changing there names from Middle Eastern names to Hispanic names.”
Security experts say the push by illegal immigrants to try to fit in also could be the realization of what officials have feared for years: Latin American drug cartels are helping jihadist groups bring terrorists across the Mexican border.

J. Peter Pham, senior fellow and director of the Africa (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/africa.htm#r_src=ramp) Project at the National Committee on American Foreign Policy, said that for the past ten years there’s been suspicion by U.S. law enforcement that drug cartels could align with international terrorist organizations to bring would-be-jihadists into the U.S.

That kind of collaboration is already being seen in Africa, said Dr. Walid Phares, director of the Future Terrorism Project at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

“Al Qaeda could easily say, “Ok, now we want your help getting these guys into the United States,” Phares said. “Eventually the federal government will pay more attention, but there is a window of time now where they can get anyone they want to get in already.”

Experts also say the DHS alert and recent court case highlights the threat of terrorists penetrating the Mexican/Texas border — and the growing threat of Somali recruitment efforts to bring Americans of Somali descent back to Somalia for jihadist training, creating homegrown terrorists.
Pham says the DHS alert comes too late. “They’re just covering themselves for the fact that DHS has been failing to date to deal effectively with this,” he said. “They’re already here.”

Michael Weinstein, a political science professor at Purdue University and an expert on Somalia, said, “In the past year, it’s become obvious that there’s a spillover into the United States of the transnational revolutionaries in Somalia.”

“It’s something that certainly has to be watched, but I don’t think it’s an imminent threat,” he said. “This has to be put in context with people smuggling — everybody and their brother is getting into the United States through Mexico; I read last week that some Chinese were crossing, it’s just a big market.”

Pham disagrees. “The real danger is ‘something along the lines of jihadist version of ‘find a classmate,’ he said, referring to Al Shabaab’s potential to set up sleeper cells in the U.S. “Most of them rely on personal referral and association. That type of social networking is not beyond their capabilities.”

Pham says the DHS alert is too little, too late.

“This is like shutting the barn door after the horses got away,” he said.

[buckscounty]

And what, in your opinion, is the truth?

He was dragged thru the streets.

[Boudicca]

and worse. God bless.

[looneycat]

Well,I do get your point.

His body wasn't blown to pieces. If the accounts in the mideast papers are accurate about what happened to our ambassador, Americans shouldn't have their heads in the sand about "buying friendship".

Not to get into religion, but what kind of a religion condones MURDER of innocent Navy Seals, ambassador, etc. all because of a silly YouTube movie that hardly had any hits previously............if they wanted to "do someone in" go after the film's producer.......not the innocents in Libya.

God rest all their souls.........

virtually every religion (think crusades) has condoned senseless murder at one time or another...but these were terrorists operating under the cover of ignorance.

[rp001]

"Walk softly and carry a Big Stick".....I do believe the "big Sticks" are already on the ground in Libya and Egypt...This won't go unpunished...We have a lot of unfinished buisness to take care of in the Mideast...There's a lot of zealots over there that are afraid to come out of hiding and I definitely believe it is only a matter of time...Anyone know how Tojo (planner of Pearl Harbor) met his maker? The worm will turn..

[Bogie Shooter]

He was dragged thru the streets.

Oh, the picture in the NY Times web page, Los Angeles Times, NY Daily News.

[senior citizen]

virtually every religion (think crusades) has condoned senseless murder at one time or another...but these were terrorists operating under the cover of ignorance.

Yes, well aware of the inquisition era, etc .....a bunch of crazies for sure.
However, this is 2012 not the dark ages........plus the past several decades of abuse which never should have happened.........

We would hope people would be more enlightened not to torture others in the name of religion.

I just find it a little contradictory on things that they do to innocent folks.
Whatever type of paradise they are planning on going to.....God help us all.

Again, without going into details (those of you who know already know), the things they did to the ambassador would prevent him from going to paradise.....same as what they did to Gadaffi.

I hesitate to even call it a religion. They are fanatics of an evil breed.

Also, why should they be so "sensitive". WE are the ones who should be sensitive based on the horrors committed by them.

We've concluded that none of them have day jobs or night jobs or family functions to attend.......so they take to the streets rioting over small things made huge by those who incite them to do so........

It may seem isolationist, but better to close down all the embassies and consulates, bring our people home and make our borders and country safe.......stop giving out student visas and keep the financial aid in this country for our citizens..........we all could use new roads, bridges, schools and whatnot.........plus a ton of other things that all those billions could buy.........right here at home.

p.s. re another post........

To stop eating meat as one poster suggested, would not stop their violence..........

By the way, I had a Koran (bought thirty years ago when I was researching world religions) and nowhere in it did I find any "commandments' to do the things they do........so of course there are plenty of good ones following that faith.........however, my husband notices all the time that they never ever protest the ill deeds of the "few" as some are saying....."it's only a few". Those riots look pretty destructive to me, no matter how few.

I worry about all our young adults overseas traveling who are so trusting of everyone. They are the ones who go hiking where they should not.

[Boudicca]

Well said, Senior Citizen.
As you point out, the many good and faithful Muslims rarely speak out against the terrorist "representing" their faith.
However, we have digressed from the main thread. Why, have our newspapers, TV, Radio and other electronic media, failed to let the American public know that our poor Ambassador did not "go quietly into the night"? I reiterate that photos are not necessary, but the truth is.
At the risk of sounding cynical, perhaps censorship is an attempt to sooth an otherwise justifiably outraged public and November's outcome

[shcisamax]

no to stop eating meat is simplifying the post...especially out of context. For those who are true fanatics, and filled with hatred...nothing will stop them except death...but as a rule, hungry people do things they would not do if they were not hungry. revolutions are built upon the oppressed and the most basic oppression is having to see others with food while you can barely feed your infant breast milk because you don't even have enough food to make that breast milk. This is why Marie Antoinette's line which BTW is suspect as being uttered by MA "Let them eat cake" is so famous. It poignantly expresses the mindset that powers in their elitism fail to recognize: the basic lack of substance for others. BUT as the poster above stated, we are off track. Let's get back to the initial thread post. Have you seen the photos.

[senior citizen]

Well said, Senior Citizen.
As you point out, the many good and faithful Muslims rarely speak out against the terrorist "representing" their faith.
However, we have digressed from the main thread. Why, have our newspapers, TV, Radio and other electronic media, failed to let the American public know that our poor Ambassador did not "go quietly into the night"? I reiterate that photos are not necessary, but the truth is.
At the risk of sounding cynical, perhaps censorship is an attempt to sooth an otherwise justifiably outraged public and November's outcome

Ayup...I thought the same thing....it's about November.

Should you or I inform the masses? I read earlier this morning that the autopsy results will never be released. If I can find it, and all my friends and relatives can find it, simply by typing in a sentence or two....it is all over the arabic world and is translated. Some translations are better than others. But even the simple descriptions are HORRIFIC. The ones who did it are sick people and would have no compassion for anyone including the do gooders in our country.

I think the minority of them have struck such fear into the rest, that they are afraid to speak out......even the president of Egypt , at first, was afraid to say anything.

We knew people who died in 911. My friend and neighbor had her mom and dad as the only survivors of the Nazi concentration camps and I know her stories*..........people have to share the truth and not have their heads in the sand. *(which would bring tears to anyone's eyes).

There has been a total culture change in our country. Everyone has to defer to those who at one time were perceived to be doing wrongly.....now we all have to be sensitive of changing times.....changing morals, changing perspectives..........however, what they did to that ambassador, who was a friend to the Libyan people, and devoted his life work to that part of the world.....fluent in Arabic as our young friend is, didn't deserve the end he got. Their rationalization is totally sick.

Even moms today still teach, "Two wrongs don't make a right".
So, they could easily state their disapproval of the movie without torturing people........but I doubt if the movie was truly "it"; it was just an excuse to riot.
The attack on the embassy had all the marks of alkaeda.

I always taught my two little ones to be kind and loving and helpful to all.
I taught them "not to fight". This is the generation that will be up against all of these crazies.......the ones you cannot reason with.

[mulligan]

If this isn't a political discussion, I'll eat my crusty old red sox hat.

[Bogie Shooter]

If this isn't a political discussion, I'll eat my crusty old red sox hat.

:agree:

[Boudicca]

I strongly disagree, this is NOT a "P" word thread. This concerns one of the basic elements of being an American and/or American culture. Believe me, I EARNED my citizenship, I studied American History, the Judicial System and so on. One sentence which is defining one, and describes our wonderful country, is "Freedom of Speech" When it is gone, so has America.

On that note, SC commented "should you or I inform the masses?" not only would it be impossible, regretfully I believe we would find ourselves in deep trouble....

[senior citizen]

I strongly disagree, this is NOT a "P" word thread. This concerns one of the basic elements of being an American and/or American culture. Believe me, I EARNED my citizenship, I studied American History, the Judicial System and so on. One sentence which is defining one, and describes our wonderful country, is "Freedom of Speech" When it is gone, so has America.

On that note, SC commented "should you or I inform the masses?" not only would it be impossible, regretfully I believe we would find ourselves in deep trouble....


I agree.

[senior citizen]

I strongly disagree, this is NOT a "P" word thread. This concerns one of the basic elements of being an American and/or American culture. Believe me, I EARNED my citizenship, I studied American History, the Judicial System and so on. One sentence which is defining one, and describes our wonderful country, is "Freedom of Speech" When it is gone, so has America.

On that note, SC commented "should you or I inform the masses?" not only would it be impossible, regretfully I believe we would find ourselves in deep trouble....

For the sake of history........


"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." ~ George Washington

[Taltarzac725]

Freedom of speech though in the U.S. is severally limited by context. And it is the government that cannot impede freedom of speech. Employers, private schools, businesses and many other places can curtail free speech.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-03/where-free-speech-goes-to-die-the-workplace

Servicemen and women are also severally limited by what they can say or do while in the service.

http://www.uscourts.gov/EducationalResources/ClassroomActivities/FirstAmendment/WhatDoesFreeSpeechMean.aspx

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/first_amendment

[paulandjean]

"Is this not a politcal discussion? I could not post about about Sat. Night Live about a skit two nights ago and yet they alow this. Very Confused to say the least.

[Taltarzac725]

"Is this not a politcal discussion? I could not post about about Sat. Night Live about a skit two nights ago and yet they alow this. Very Confused to say the least.

I just avoid all mentioning of any currently running political candidate and their views on any subject. Also I avoid mentioning any other politician as well. Marie Antoinette seems far game however.

Do agree with some other poster that much of the riots in the Middle East and elsewhere are more about food, jobs, housing gas, and money that about religous fanaticism surrounding ire at that 14 minute film clip of The Innocence of Muslims.

[Moderator]

Thread has deviated from original discussion and is now off topic.