Pool chemicals

[jimbo2012]

I was talking a pool maintenance person from T&D today, she showed me how she pours a couple of quarts of Muriatic acid in the water :loco:

she does to all the pools, I thought chlorine was toxic enough.......

Anyone shed some light on this?


She also said 60% of the pools use saltwater and they use less chemicals.

[skyc6]

I was talking a pool maintenance person from T&D today, she showed me how she pours a couple of quarts of Muriatic acid in the water :loco:

she does to all the pools, I thought chlorine was toxic enough.......

Anyone shed some light on this?


She also said 60% of the pools use saltwater and they use less chemicals.


We had a pool for 30 years and always used Muriatic acid. It is a standard pool treatment.

[jimbo2012]

Well that doesn't mean it's safe, she said that no one can use the pool for 12 hours........ what does it do?

Surprised that there are not safer pool treatments

[Mikeod]

Adjusts the pH.

[jimbo2012]

There must be a better... safer way to adjust PH

[applesoffh]

I know that baking soda also helps pH, but I don't know to what extent.

[jimbo2012]

I'm thinking about adding a pool in the future,
I know I wouldn't use chlorine so plan on saltwater in addition a UV sterilizer.

That alternative appears to be safer than allowing chlorine and now I see muriatic acid absorbed thu the skin..

I want a swimming pool
not
A chemical pool

ok, did a bit of Google research, apparently the SAFE alternative is Sodium bisulfate pH reducer.

pH Reducer Safe Alternative to Muriatic Acid - Chemicals to Maintain Proper pH Balance in Swimming Pools (http://shop.bluehaven.com/product/pH-Reducer/in-ground-pool-chemicals-ph-balance)
or
pH Reducer for Swimming Pool Water - Sodium Bisulfate for Pools (http://www.saveonpoolsupplies.com/Pool-Chemicals/Water-Balancing-Pool-Chemicals/pH-Reducer/)
or
No Mor Muriatic Acid (http://www.swimpool.com/AcidforPool-Nomormuriaticacid.htm)


.

[gustavo]

Well that doesn't mean it's safe, she said that no one can use the pool for 12 hours........ what does it do?

Surprised that there are not safer pool treatments

12 hours, That's funny. When I need to add a cup because my pH has crept high I pour it into a mason jar and get in the pool and use it to scrub down the tile with a nylon brush. When I'm done I dump the rest in the pool and disperse it with my body movement through the water.

[gustavo]

I know that baking soda also helps pH, but I don't know to what extent.

Baking soda buffers the water so that small changes of acid or caustic won't change the pH drastically.

[Bogie Shooter]

12 hours, That's funny. When I need to add a cup because my pH has crept high I pour it into a mason jar and get in the pool and use it to scrub down the tile with a nylon brush. When I'm done I dump the rest in the pool and disperse it with my body movement through the water.

Acid is used all the time and is recommended to clean a pool filter. I recall when my pool was new and the filter became clogged the installer soaked it in a five gallon bucket and stirred it with his hand. When I questioned him he agreed one should use rubber gloves..........he was most concerned about getting it in ones eyes.
If the other items work and are safe, probably best to use.

[gustavo]

I'm thinking about adding a pool in the future,
I know I wouldn't use chlorine so plan on saltwater in addition a UV sterilizer.

That alternative appears to be safer than allowing chlorine and now I see muriatic acid absorbed thu the skin..

I want a swimming pool
not
A chemical pool

ok, did a bit of Google research, apparently the SAFE alternative is Sodium bisulfate pH reducer.

pH Reducer Safe Alternative to Muriatic Acid - Chemicals to Maintain Proper pH Balance in Swimming Pools (http://shop.bluehaven.com/product/pH-Reducer/in-ground-pool-chemicals-ph-balance)
or
pH Reducer for Swimming Pool Water - Sodium Bisulfate for Pools (http://www.saveonpoolsupplies.com/Pool-Chemicals/Water-Balancing-Pool-Chemicals/pH-Reducer/)
or
No Mor Muriatic Acid (http://www.swimpool.com/AcidforPool-Nomormuriaticacid.htm)


.

Jimbo,

Please realize a salt pool is a chlorine pool. The chlorine is generated by electrolysis in a chlorine generator. Yes you use less chemicals but when the plates in your generator fail in 3 to 5 years look for a $500 bill for the replacement if you do it yourself, more from a pool service.

If you're talking about a UV ozone generator, they are not sanitizers but will oxidize material that chlorine attacks thereby reducing the chlorine requirement, i.e less chemical cost. They too have replacement costs associated with the UV bulbs in the ozonator.

The safe alternative to muriatic acid, sodium bisulfate (dry acid) refers to the fact that it is not liquid so no chance of spills. It still creates H+ ions in the water as do all acids added to pools like muriatic, sulfuric etc. It is also costlier than the liquids acids, the price of the spill prevention.

Also understand that a salt water generator makes chlorine gas pH near 2 so it lessens the need for added acid, the downside is you are immersed in Sodium ions from the salt that does absorb through your skin, so back off on the added salt on your french fries to counter act your daily swim.

Liquid chlorine is high pH so it exacerbates the need for acid.

DiChlor is near pH neutral and Trichlor is pH low helping to lessen the acid demand.

Bottom line, if you want a pool that is free of algae and won't give you a disease, you need chlorine.

[jimbo2012]

12 hours, That's funny. When I need to add a cup because my pH has crept high I pour it into a mason jar and get in the pool and use it to scrub down the tile with a nylon brush. When I'm done I dump the rest in the pool and disperse it with my body movement through the water.

Not the safest swim to take IMO?

Acid is used all the time and is recommended to clean a pool filter. I recall when my pool was new and the filter became clogged the installer soaked it in a five gallon bucket and stirred it with his hand. When I questioned him he agreed one should use rubber gloves..........he was most concerned about getting it in ones eyes.
If the other items work and are safe, probably best to use.

He's not following the recommended use, I can only assume he's ignorant.

Here's what I found

Salt water chlorination is a process that uses dissolved salt (1,800–6,000 ppm) as a store for the chlorination system. The chlorinator uses electrolysis to break down the salt (NaCl). The resulting chemical reaction eventually produces hypochlorous acid (HCIO), and sodium hypochlorite (NaClO), which are the sanitizing agents already commonly used in swimming pools. As such, a saltwater pool is not actually chlorine-free; it simply utilizes a chlorine generator instead of direct addition of chlorine.

The important distinction is that saltwater pools (usually) lack chloramines, referred to as combined chlorine. Chloramines are the irritants which give traditional pools the stigma of burning eyes and caustic smell. Electrolysis burns off chloramines in the same manner as traditional shock (oxidizer). When chlorine levels are low in the pool, one possible cause is low salt (others can be higher-than-normal chlorine demand, low stabilizer or mechanical issues with the generator itself.) Salt count can be lowered due to splash-out, backwashing, and dilution via rainwater

Concerns

Scientific research has shown that since saltwater pools still use chlorine sanitization, they generate unhealthy disinfection byproducts (DBPs) called trihalomethanes (THMs) the predominant form being bromoform. Very high levels of bromoform (up to 13-fold higher than maximum levels set by WHO) have been measured in public salt pools.[1]

Many people consider saltwater chlorine generators to be a new item. However, manufacturers have been producing salt chlorine generators in the United States since the early 1980s. The use of saltwater chlorine generators has however grown greatly since the early 2000s. Many hotels and water parks have converted to saltwater systems.

????????

[sunglow]

The other day I was testing our pool water - we have an ozonator so it calls for 1 part per million of chlorine. I thought I'd check the level of chlorine in the tap water out of curiousity. I knew tap water had a lot of chlorine but was still shocked to see how much chlorine was in the water. There was at least 3 times the amount of chlorine coming from the faucet than was in my pool. I'm glad I use a filter for our drinking water! Now I think I need to put a filter on my shower head!:ohdear:

[jimbo2012]

I'm installing a whole house filter with a carbon block, carbon will remove chlorine among other nasty things

[applesoffh]

Baking soda buffers the water so that small changes of acid or caustic won't change the pH drastically.

OK - thanks for the clarification...

[BobnBev]

I'm installing a whole house filter with a carbon block, carbon will remove chlorine among other nasty things

Can you tell us who's doing the installation and the approximate cost?

[jimbo2012]

I'm actually doing the install and intend to do this type of filtration as a side biz for others.

[Golfingnut]

I'm actually doing the install and intend to do this type of filtration as a side biz for others.

I my opinion, complaining about how other people do their business is not the right way to introduce yourself into the business environment of The Villages. Just a thought.

:)

[jimbo2012]

Not sure how you think I did that?

[Golfingnut]

Not sure how you think I did that?

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent, but I based my opinion on these statements by you.

Well that doesn't mean it's safe, she said that no one can use the pool for 12 hours........ what does it do?

There must be a better... safer way to adjust PH
I want a swimming pool
not
A chemical pool
Not the safest swim to take IMO?
He's not following the recommended use, I can only assume he's ignorant.
:duck::duck:

[jimbo2012]

I was referring to "whole house filter with a carbon block", not pool filters or maintenance...

[BobnBev]

I'm actually doing the install and intend to do this type of filtration as a side biz for others.

Total cost in $$$$$$$?

[jimbo2012]

Total cost in $$$$$$$?

This is the unit I'm using, it's a triple 20" canister system with two pressure gauges, you compare the incoming water pressure to out going, when there's a significant decrease you change the first two sediment filters they are less than $10 ea, next time you change all 3 including the carbon block that one cost about $35. should get 6-9 months from the filter elements, this is a commercial grade unit.

Total cost with filter inserts is $275, installed add $125

There are less expensive filter housings but they get you for the replacement filter elements.


.

[BobnBev]

Jimbo, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

Home Depot---Lowes----What's your recommendation?

[jimbo2012]

Jimbo, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

Home Depot---Lowes----What's your recommendation?

Actually I don't think U can find those there, this a commercial grade unit.

I'm going to bring in 6 of them, 1 for myself and sell the others if interested.

[graciegirl]

Jimbo,

Please realize a salt pool is a chlorine pool. The chlorine is generated by electrolysis in a chlorine generator. Yes you use less chemicals but when the plates in your generator fail in 3 to 5 years look for a $500 bill for the replacement if you do it yourself, more from a pool service.

If you're talking about a UV ozone generator, they are not sanitizers but will oxidize material that chlorine attacks thereby reducing the chlorine requirement, i.e less chemical cost. They too have replacement costs associated with the UV bulbs in the ozonator.

The safe alternative to muriatic acid, sodium bisulfate (dry acid) refers to the fact that it is not liquid so no chance of spills. It still creates H+ ions in the water as do all acids added to pools like muriatic, sulfuric etc. It is also costlier than the liquids acids, the price of the spill prevention.

Also understand that a salt water generator makes chlorine gas pH near 2 so it lessens the need for added acid, the downside is you are immersed in Sodium ions from the salt that does absorb through your skin, so back off on the added salt on your french fries to counter act your daily swim.

Liquid chlorine is high pH so it exacerbates the need for acid.

DiChlor is near pH neutral and Trichlor is pH low helping to lessen the acid demand.

Bottom line, if you want a pool that is free of algae and won't give you a disease, you need chlorine.

WOW. I am impressed with your knowledge and I am sorry that I thought you were someone else. Very sorry. You are who you are and a smart person to boot.

Merry Christmas.

Please give me another chance.

[jimbo2012]

Yes what he said is correct, after researching this issue I think I'll go with an all natural swimming pool, this is where a pond is used adjacent to the pool with plants that do the bio break down.

This has been used in Europe for years and is just now gaining traction here in the US.

The water is circulated between the pond and pool, the standard sand or cartridge filter is used along with a UV filter or Ozone, one or the other not both.

THis pond will also add warm water back to the pool because it would be shallow 6-12"

Here's rough idea the pond is at the upper part of the pic, the pond would be located outside the birdcage
http://www.gartenart-australia.com/FotoGallery/albums/2D%20High%20Level%20Design%20examples/HD_05.jpg

[kittygilchrist]

somehow I don't think this would fit on my lot, or get approved by the Poobahs...but i like the concept and that you are the Google King. hats off.
Kitty

[jimbo2012]

As far as fitting that pic was a concept.

I already received an verbal ok on the installation by the ARC

All you need is about a 8 x 12 pond located anyplace on your lot, I guess it would fit on any lot.

[graciegirl]

I already received an verbal ok on the installation by the ARC

um...did you mention the worms? ;)

[jimbo2012]

come Gracie U know that wouldn't happen :1rotfl:


recent water test results (http://www.districtgov.org/departments/utilities/NSU%202011%20CCR_Final.pdf)at TV

[spk7951]

Well that doesn't mean it's safe, she said that no one can use the pool for 12 hours........ what does it do?


I have a hard time believing this. When we have our salt pool water tested, usually every three weeks, most of the time tell us to add 1 to 1 1/2 cups of muriatic acid to the pool. Since our pool holds about 14,000 gallons of water and we put the acid in by an outlet the acid would spread out fairly quickly. We do make a point of staying out of the pool for about two hours even though when we bought our salt chlorinator we were told to leave the filter running for at least one hour after adding the acid and to stay out of the pool for the same amount of time.

[jimbo2012]

Don't shoot the messenger, just what I found online.

[NannyO12]

This is the unit I'm using, it's a triple 20" canister system with two pressure gauges, you compare the incoming water pressure to out going, when there's a significant decrease you change the first two sediment filters they are less than $10 ea, next time you change all 3 including the carbon block that one cost about $35. should get 6-9 months from the filter elements, this is a commercial grade unit.

Total cost with filter inserts is $275, installed add $125

There are less expensive filter housings but they get you for the replacement filter elements.


.
Where did you buy this filter and what is the name of it?

[graciegirl]

This concept of the plants is either VERY brilliant or not too great.

Usually mass produced systems are cheaper and easier to maintain just because there are a lot of them and a lot of people know a lot about them and parts etc are available to maintain them.

But Columbus took a chance..

[jimbo2012]

Where did you buy this filter and what is the name of it?


I'm a distributor for them in NY, so I will sell them here to others on the forum.

[Serenoa]

Have used muriatic acid for years in pools to adjust ph & have NEVER had any problems. Once it's in the water it quickly dillutes. Have no idea why anyone would recommend waiting 12 hours. Definitely NOT necessary.

[jimbo2012]

I'll stick with all natural, zero chemicals.

[gustavo]

I'll stick with all natural, zero chemicals.

No such thing

[jimbo2012]

Yes my friend there is,

Absolutely all natural you can stop by my home in a few weeks to see for yourself.

[DDoug]

One thing I'm going to say and we all know this KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. People seem to be big on salt generators and the all natural thing would be interested to know what you are talking about. Salt generators break down or stop working and now what do you do big repair bill or replace it. I take care of a commercial pool (27000gal. small) and it doesnt cost that much to maintain it with chlorine and it is not rocket science. Also have one in my back yard in a cage and that is even easier. Keep the pool covered when not in use and that makes your job real easy. Do your own water testing so you will begin to understand what it is all about. A lot of free info on the net. By the way I use pure silver for my pool at home kills bacteria and one once piece will last almost for ever.

[jimbo2012]

the all natural thing would be interested to know what you are talking about.

Though fairly common in Europe, natural swimming pools, are in their infancy in the United States.

But in recent years, a few builders and a growing number of homeowners have learned how to build pools without relying on a mass of manufactured materials and chemical additives. They've found it's possible to construct pools that are more about building with nature and blending into the natural landscape. Natural swimming pools use an ajacent pond and aquatic plants instead of harmful chemicals.
The plants enrich the pool with oxygen, support beneficial bacteria that consume debris and potentially harmful organisms..
:BigApplause:

The result is a beautiful, ecologically diverse system that is relatively inexpensive to construct. (A natural pond to support the pool can he constructed for as little as $2,000 if you do it yourself

I'll be submitting the plans to the ARC soon.

I'll have a typical pump with a sand or cartridge filter along with a UV or ozone system as most people do now.

But a small pump will circulate water thru the pond and pool.

No chlorine or make believe saltwater which is really just a different form of chlorine.