What is wrong in our society?

[spk7951]

In the aftermath of the Newton tragedy there have been some outlandish activities by people as it related to that tragedy:


1. An administrative employee of the CT state coroners office allowed her husband access to the morgue to view the body of the killer before his autopsy. Strictly against policy and this person is suspended pending investigation that could lead to termination.

2. A lawyer tried to file a $100M lawsuit against the state on behalf of a survivor of the massacre. Supposedly the lawyer was soliciting the survivor families to see if anyone would hire him.

3. A Bronx woman posted on Facebook that she was related to a victim and received thousands of dollars in donations before being arrested.


I am baffled and outraged that people would do things like this especially after this kind of tragedy. Just what is going on with our society today???

[Madelaine Amee]

In the aftermath of the Newton tragedy there have been some outlandish activities by people as it related to that tragedy:


1. An administrative employee of the CT state coroners office allowed her husband access to the morgue to view the body of the killer before his autopsy. Strictly against policy and this person is suspended pending investigation that could lead to termination.

2. A lawyer tried to file a $100M lawsuit against the state on behalf of a survivor of the massacre. Supposedly the lawyer was soliciting the survivor families to see if anyone would hire him.

3. A Bronx woman posted on Facebook that she was related to a victim and received thousands of dollars in donations before being arrested.
I am baffled and outraged that people would do things like this especially after this kind of tragedy. Just what is going on with our society today???

In my opinion we are a very sick society, and I see no immediate way out of this mess. Too much hatred in all walks of life.

[BarryRX]

In the aftermath of the Newton tragedy there have been some outlandish activities by people as it related to that tragedy:


1. An administrative employee of the CT state coroners office allowed her husband access to the morgue to view the body of the killer before his autopsy. Strictly against policy and this person is suspended pending investigation that could lead to termination.

2. A lawyer tried to file a $100M lawsuit against the state on behalf of a survivor of the massacre. Supposedly the lawyer was soliciting the survivor families to see if anyone would hire him.

3. A Bronx woman posted on Facebook that she was related to a victim and received thousands of dollars in donations before being arrested.


I am baffled and outraged that people would do things like this especially after this kind of tragedy. Just what is going on with our society today???

of course the people you mentioned are idiots, but the bigger question is why our country seems to lead the way in mass killing tragedies. As a pharmacist, I believe that my profession may contribute. Due to the development of effective antipsychotic in the 60's, we now have many people out in society where before the drugs they would have been institutionalized. This trend has severely reduced the funding and staffing of many mental health facilities so we are less able to recognize mental illness when it occurs and less equipped to treat it. Please note everyone that this is not a comment about guns.

[graciegirl]

In my opinion we are a very sick society, and I see no immediate way out of this mess. Too much hatred in all walks of life.


I would have to agree.

[gomoho]

Our society has lost its moral compass. Violent video games, violent rap music, sex thrown in everyone's face, drugs glorified, unmarried women having babies just cause they want to, and a constant attack on our Judeo/Christian values by a minority that gets held up in our court system. Is it any wonder??? And excuse me for being political, but a government that condones and encourages handouts. Buckle up 'cause I am afraid it is only going to get worse before it gets better.

[janmcn]

In the aftermath of the Newton tragedy there have been some outlandish activities by people as it related to that tragedy:


1. An administrative employee of the CT state coroners office allowed her husband access to the morgue to view the body of the killer before his autopsy. Strictly against policy and this person is suspended pending investigation that could lead to termination.

2. A lawyer tried to file a $100M lawsuit against the state on behalf of a survivor of the massacre. Supposedly the lawyer was soliciting the survivor families to see if anyone would hire him.

3. A Bronx woman posted on Facebook that she was related to a victim and received thousands of dollars in donations before being arrested.


I am baffled and outraged that people would do things like this especially after this kind of tragedy. Just what is going on with our society today???

Our society has lost its moral compass. Violent video games, violent rap music, sex thrown in everyone's face, drugs glorified, unmarried women having babies just cause they want to, and a constant attack on our Judeo/Christian values by a minority that gets held up in our court system. Is it any wonder??? And excuse me for being political, but a government that condones and encourages handouts. Buckle up 'cause I am afraid it is only going to get worse before it gets better.

In the first quote, number 2 and 3 are people trying to make a buck off of a senseless tragedy. Sadly, it happens all the time and has nothing to do with violent video games, rap music, sex, drugs, unmarried women having babies or an attack on our Judeo/Christian values.

[Monkei]

Our society has lost its moral compass. Violent video games, violent rap music, sex thrown in everyone's face, drugs glorified, unmarried women having babies just cause they want to, and a constant attack on our Judeo/Christian values by a minority that gets held up in our court system. Is it any wonder??? And excuse me for being political, but a government that condones and encourages handouts. Buckle up 'cause I am afraid it is only going to get worse before it gets better.

I am not sure that attacks on Christianity are happening and I doubt that even if it were it is not why society is currently trending downward. We do have violence in music and video games for sure but we also have seriously sick mental cases walking our streets and no way to care for them, unless it seems they commit a horrendous crime.

There is surely a lot to blame on society's woes but it goes much deeper than the normal ones you stated. This country does not educate their youth, has made it impossible to send our kids to college without being very rich or have a kid fortunate to be 7-2 and able to dunk a basketball or being a 5 star athlete in certain sports. Our country's healthcare is one of the worst of the civilized nations, we have a broken political system where one party is praised for saying no and the other not able to capitalize on it.

You could go on and on on the reasons but a once great nation is no longer controlled any longer by its citizens but by mega rich companies and lobby's which control the elected officials who once upon a time used to work for us.

[cbg150]

"...And excuse me for being political, but a government that condones and encourages handouts. Buckle up 'cause I am afraid it is only going to get worse before it gets better."

For a second I thought you wrote HANDGUNS...to think I was actually going to agree with you!

[ijusluvit]

Our's is NOT a sick society! On the whole I'd prefer to think that there's even a little more good than evil out there.

Our society is identical to all of the others in the world, and the same as those which have preceeded us. I'll be so bold as to predict this pattern will continue indefinitely into the future.

Every society has it's "bell curve" distribution of generally good, law abiding folks, with the sprinkling of saints and devils out on the fringes. Personally I think this is the way the Creator intended it, so that we could look at the whole spectrum and then decide what kind of a person we would like to be. And I think that is exceptionally cool.

Don't be fooled by the media. The devils are just getting more attention now than when Genghis Kahn was running around.

[mgjim]

Our's is NOT a sick society! On the whole I'd prefer to think that there's even a little more good than evil out there.

Our society is identical to all of the others in the world, and the same as those which have preceeded us. I'll be so bold as to predict this pattern will continue indefinitely into the future.

Every society has it's "bell curve" distribution of generally good, law abiding folks, with the sprinkling of saints and devils out on the fringes. Personally I think this is the way the Creator intended it, so that we could look at the whole spectrum and then decide what kind of a person we would like to be. And I think that is exceptionally cool.

Don't be fooled by the media. The devils are just getting more attention now than when Genghis Kahn was running around.

I'm inclined to agree with you. It seems like every generation is critical of the next one and believes that the youngsters are going to Hell in a handbasket. I suspect the behavior identified by the OP has been around for a long time.

[ilovetv]

I think the behavior listed in the o.p. is fed by a lot of really poor upbringing and lack of moral training and character-building. What we've seen a lot in "upscale" neighborhoods as our kids were growing up was total lack of supervision of the kids--they were left alone at an early age and were left to their own devices. They roamed the streets like dogs and the parents would act like somehow, the kids would one day just magically turn into honorable citizens. These were wealthy families, not poor ones. Negligent or no parenting is a trend in all socio-economic levels.

And from what I see, there are fewer parents making sure their kids get a religious education that is relevant and engaging and useful in everyday life. Formation of a person's conscience is aided by being immersed in moral role modeling and with disciplined practice.

Nobody has the answers to all this....this is what I've seen and believe has contributed to a lot of twisted and amoral behavior.

[gomoho]

In the first quote, number 2 and 3 are people trying to make a buck off of a senseless tragedy. Sadly, it happens all the time and has nothing to do with violent video games, rap music, sex, drugs, unmarried women having babies or an attack on our Judeo/Christian values.

However, the OP's question was "what is wrong in our society"?

[gomoho]

"I am not sure that attacks on Christianity are happening" Really??? Why do you think people now say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the kids can't pray in school, or mention God at their commencement. Why the city of Las Cruces NM had to go to court to keep their city seal of 3 crosses? and on and on. Oh yes, there is an attack on values, don't kid yourself.

[2BNTV]

I agree that one generation seems to be more critical of other generatons. I also believe that a certain segment of the population are always looking to profit off of other's misfortunes.

We hear about it lot more from the media so it seems lot a lot more but in reality, it may be about the same. It does sicken me that certain people are always looking for an angle.

I notice a lot more people tend to be less article in the spoken word and a general attitude towards disrespect. It is always refreshing to see younger people who have been raised right and present themselves in a good light.

[graciegirl]

I think the behavior listed in the o.p. is fed by a lot of really poor upbringing and lack of moral training and character-building. What we've seen a lot in "upscale" neighborhoods as our kids were growing up was total lack of supervision of the kids--they were left alone at an early age and were left to their own devices. They roamed the streets like dogs and the parents would act like somehow, the kids would one day just magically turn into honorable citizens. These were wealthy families, not poor ones. Negligent or no parenting is a trend in all socio-economic levels.

And from what I see, there are fewer parents making sure their kids get a religious education that is relevant and engaging and useful in everyday life. Formation of a person's conscience is aided by being immersed in moral role modeling and with disciplined practice.

Nobody has the answers to all this....this is what I've seen and believe has contributed to a lot of twisted and amoral behavior.

I have to agree. People sometimes allow people to take full control over their children who they would not allow to drive their car.

Think about it. It isn't the BIG things that teach values, it is the little things, the attitude, the unread verbal clues. Care for our children is one thing and having a vested interest in them is sometimes another thing.

Moms and dads are best to raise children and grandparents too. Sending them away to be cared for means that you don't know the child as well as if you were with him/her all the time.

It requires choices. For a long time we had ONE car and a small house. It didn't seem to harm our kids.

So many changes to family life and not much good coming from them....in my life time and in my opinion.

[spk7951]

I do also believe that a general lowering of moral values, in this country, seems to be part of the problems of our culture. And yes I do believe it is getting worse through each generation, which just might be the new norm. But I tend to believe it all starts with the family and the upbringing.

[rubicon]

Upon reading the previous 16 posts it appears that you have all answered the OP's question. IMHO we have drifted away from the norm and it has caused great harm to our children whom ought to be treated as if they are a protected species...because in fact they are.

This transformation process began in the the late 1950's carried over to 1960-70-80 and onto todays with each successive generation trying to top the previous in demonstrating their lack of restraint and discpline. It is one reason why we have a huge drug problem , a lousy eductional system, increase in unwanted pregnancies. The lack of parental supervision is quite evident and in a small way explains why a Simon Cowell received so much attention because he was straight up and realisitc and honest in his approach of analyzing a person's performance (my reference here is to the trophy generation). Notice i didn't say he was always right.

When you contrast that a big faux pas for us when we were kids was to get caught chewing gum in school as opposed to what is going now you get a good idea of the steep decline in behavior .

As long as we keep promoting the likes of the Kim Kardashians as role models our situation will only worsen as opposed to true achievers

It is statistical proven that as a group people with mental health issues have a lower percentage of those who would do harm to others. Unfortunately the news media will always take license to up the sensationalism for the sake of increase circulation. Two different stories of mothers who exited their cars and let them continue into waters drowning their children. One of the mothers was found to have a mental illness. However the other mother had a boy friend who wasn't crazy about the thought of raising someone else kids. Same act different reasoning. and yes I agree that we need to deal more effectively with helping people with neuro-brain disorders

Our society is need of a leader(s) who inspire lead by example and reflect why the virtues of morality ethics, industry, honesty and transparcency are essential for us to return to our rightful place as the superpower that other nations want to emulate. Unfortunately there appear to be none on the horizon . If we do not find such leaders we will go the way of those other societies described in some of the previous posts.

[gustavo]

Read some history, this is the norm for the human race. Get used to it.

[rubicon]

Read some history, this is the norm for the human race. Get used to it.

gustavo: Your reference of course is to the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, et al......

It certainly does look as if we are trending toward such a devasting and irretrievable decline. But I would not bet against America or Americans. Like my hero Popeye Americans are going to reach a point and rise up and say Ï can't stands no more.:wave:

[Trayderjoe]

I think the behavior listed in the o.p. is fed by a lot of really poor upbringing and lack of moral training and character-building. What we've seen a lot in "upscale" neighborhoods as our kids were growing up was total lack of supervision of the kids--they were left alone at an early age and were left to their own devices. They roamed the streets like dogs and the parents would act like somehow, the kids would one day just magically turn into honorable citizens. These were wealthy families, not poor ones. Negligent or no parenting is a trend in all socio-economic levels.

And from what I see, there are fewer parents making sure their kids get a religious education that is relevant and engaging and useful in everyday life. Formation of a person's conscience is aided by being immersed in moral role modeling and with disciplined practice.

Nobody has the answers to all this....this is what I've seen and believe has contributed to a lot of twisted and amoral behavior.

I agree to a point, but I would also like to submit that perhaps some of the core reasons are that people are no longer held accountable for their decisions, nor are children allowed to "fail" as it might hurt their self esteem.

If someone makes a mistake, we fall all over ourselves with reasons that the person made an error instead of holding the person accountable. How many frivilous lawsuits are out there blaming someone else for a person's own stupidity? We also seem to have more people on various drugs (how many people know someone on Ritalin for example) to just get through the day. Why is that?

As to the kids, if they aren't allowed to fail, what happens when they have to finally face reality that not everyone gets a trophy and that the English language includes the word "no"? Instead of sheltering kids so that "their self esteem won't be permanantely damaged", why aren't we letting them fail and if they do, learn from the mistake and support them through that process?

We also have developed a culture of "I want it now"-patience is no longer a virtue.

I can go on, and I apologize for my diatribe, this is definitely one of my "hot buttons". :mad::mad::mad:

I know, perhaps I should just "chill out" chilout

[Polar Bear]

The acts cited by the OP are acts of individuals. There have always been and will always be bad individuals in society. Of course our society has serious issues. But you shouldn't be too quick to give up on all of society based on any few individuals and their actions.

I personally believe the good in our society far outweighs the bad. It just doesn't get as many headlines.

[Jim&Fran]

In the aftermath of the Newton tragedy there have been some outlandish activities by people as it related to that tragedy:


1. An administrative employee of the CT state coroners office allowed her husband access to the morgue to view the body of the killer before his autopsy. Strictly against policy and this person is suspended pending investigation that could lead to termination.

2. A lawyer tried to file a $100M lawsuit against the state on behalf of a survivor of the massacre. Supposedly the lawyer was soliciting the survivor families to see if anyone would hire him.

3. A Bronx woman posted on Facebook that she was related to a victim and received thousands of dollars in donations before being arrested.


I am baffled and outraged that people would do things like this especially after this kind of tragedy. Just what is going on with our society today???
Seems like the system is working fine in at least two of those incidents. When people go wrong we must find them and stop them, I can't agree more and the punishment should be appropriate. However let's not keep innocent, honest people from running with scissors as long as they possess the scissors legally and know how to safely run with them.
I have more than one pair of scissors in my home, if I find you in my home at night "they" will find you there in the morning.
If you don't want scissors in your home you can pick up your phone and call the police for help, they will come to your home..... In time to take pictures of your body.......
Be safe, lock your doors and keep a nice pair of scissors ready at all times.
"snip, snip, snip, snip"

[ugotme]

I agree to a point, but I would also like to submit that perhaps some of the core reasons are that people are no longer held accountable for their decisions, nor are children allowed to "fail" as it might hurt their self esteem.

If someone makes a mistake, we fall all over ourselves with reasons that the person made an error instead of holding the person accountable. How many frivilous lawsuits are out there blaming someone else for a person's own stupidity? We also seem to have more people on various drugs (how many people know someone on Ritalin for example) to just get through the day. Why is that?

As to the kids, if they aren't allowed to fail, what happens when they have to finally face reality that not everyone gets a trophy and that the English language includes the word "no"? Instead of sheltering kids so that "their self esteem won't be permanantely damaged", why aren't we letting them fail and if they do, learn from the mistake and support them through that process?

We also have developed a culture of "I want it now"-patience is no longer a virtue.

I can go on, and I apologize for my diatribe, this is definitely one of my "hot buttons". :mad::mad::mad:

I know, perhaps I should just "chill out" chilout


NO, don't chill out - you just saved me from typing basically the same thing.

:loco:

[redwitch]

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

This was written by Socrates. Seems like the same complaints we have today about kids. We're always going to rail against the younger generation (except, of course, our perfect children and grandchildren).

Like all societies, we have good and bad elements. If you have doubts, look at how many around the world have come to the aid of Hurricane Sandy victims. You may not read about how someone helped a stranger, but I'm sure you've heard about it and not just here in TV. And, of course, there is the bad -- that we hear about on a daily basis on TV, on the internet, from neighbors, here.

There have always been people willing to take advantage of others. There always will be. There will always be flaws in any form of government. Let's face it, anything run by groups rather than ethical individuals is going to have problems -- at best, mediocrity will be the norm. We've abdicated our rights for comfort and security.

Personally, I'm getting tired of being policed for my own good. A friend just told me that when she flew up north all women's handbags had to be given to the flight attendant before the plane could take off. Excuse me???? I'm supposed to be searched, x-rayed, have personal items go through machines and now give up my purse and property to a stranger. To me, the biggest problem with this society is the willingness to give up personal freedoms for "security". I flinched when Homeland Security laws were announced and cried when they came into effect. America was based on the right to be free; the right to make personal choices. Those rights are being taken away on a daily basis and that truly scares me a lot more than the bad behavior of some or the risk of a mass murderer.

[graciegirl]

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

This was written by Socrates. Seems like the same complaints we have today about kids. We're always going to rail against the younger generation (except, of course, our perfect children and grandchildren).

Like all societies, we have good and bad elements. If you have doubts, look at how many around the world have come to the aid of Hurricane Sandy victims. You may not read about how someone helped a stranger, but I'm sure you've heard about it and not just here in TV. And, of course, there is the bad -- that we hear about on a daily basis on TV, on the internet, from neighbors, here.

There have always been people willing to take advantage of others. There always will be. There will always be flaws in any form of government. Let's face it, anything run by groups rather than ethical individuals is going to have problems -- at best, mediocrity will be the norm. We've abdicated our rights for comfort and security.

Personally, I'm getting tired of being policed for my own good. A friend just told me that when she flew up north all women's handbags had to be given to the flight attendant before the plane could take off. Excuse me???? I'm supposed to be searched, x-rayed, have personal items go through machines and now give up my purse and property to a stranger. To me, the biggest problem with this society is the willingness to give up personal freedoms for "security". I flinched when Homeland Security laws were announced and cried when they came into effect. America was based on the right to be free; the right to make personal choices. Those rights are being taken away on a daily basis and that truly scares me a lot more than the bad behavior of some or the risk of a mass murderer.

I don't have any fear of anyone watching me.

I would willingly get into a suit that the airlines would give me and surrender my clothes so that I know that everyone was flying without concealed something.

I think that because there are now so many who have no concience we have to do extreme things.

If and when I feel the need I will get some scissors and learn how to use them.

I worry that a lot of people with scissors don't have a good moral compass or drink a lot or have unreasonable rages or are swallowing whole someone elses ideas.

Think for yourself is my motto.

[JoeC1947]

I don't have any fear of anyone watching me.

I would willingly get into a suit that the airlines would give me and surrender my clothes so that I know that everyone was flying without concealed something.

I think that because there are now so many who have no concience we have to do extreme things.

If and when I feel the need I will get some scissors and learn how to use them.

I worry that a lot of people with scissors don't have a good moral compass or drink a lot or have unreasonable rages or are swallowing whole someone elses ideas.

Think for yourself is my motto.


Gracie,

Would you really give up your clothing or are you trying to make a point? Might as well get on the plane naked, that way we can really be sure that it is completely safe (not). Homeland security is a joke.

[Jim&Fran]

I don't have any fear of anyone watching me.

I would willingly get into a suit that the airlines would give me and surrender my clothes so that I know that everyone was flying without concealed something.

I think that because there are now so many who have no concience we have to do extreme things.

If and when I feel the need I will get some scissors and learn how to use them.

I worry that a lot of people with scissors don't have a good moral compass or drink a lot or have unreasonable rages or are swallowing whole someone elses ideas.

Think for yourself is my motto.My respect for you is beyond reproach.
I do prefer to accept everyone as a "no threat" that is until you prove to me that you are (a threat) . Is that what your suggesting when you said "think for yourself is my motto".
The need to protect yourself is not a luxury but maybe it is.
You have fire insurance on your home, why? Are you planning a fire?
You have theft insurance on your car, why?
Sounds silly but you do take precautions for both. We all have or should have fire alarms in our home to insure our safety.
All of the above insures that your property is safe and will be replaced. What insurance do you have that will replace you?
Wait, there's life insurance but it's not really LIFE insurance but rather death insurance. We all are going to go sooner or later but that insurance is not for us, it's for our family.
I'll never swallow anyone else's ideas, I prefer to do what I have to to protect my family, myself and anyone else who needs help. If using large, sharp scissors does the job then so be it. Like I said you can dial 911 and wait or.........
Snip, snip, snip....... Then 911
The need to do something shouldn't be apparent after the fact.
There will always be someone to help you Graciegirl your not alone.

[Parker]

A democratic society can only succeed if the population lives with a higher ideal than their own self worth. Our society now believes in Me-First at any cost to others. Our youth do not believe in "for the good of society". Probably to late to turn it around now.

[billethkid]

remember we are talking about the one percent of the population (or less) that does all the stupid or out of sorts kind of things.

Also remember the media is there immediately to be sure we all are aware of the sensationalism of that one percent. So we hear more than we used to.

Also the philosophy of the media....if it bleeds it leads....sets the priority to promote the one percent.

And there is no doubt about the moral decay, the loss of core values and more importantly how permissive our society has become.

Politicians as well as the average citizen will always take the safe approach and not pusue any issues or actions that may be controversial....real or percieved.

The other 99% of us just get dragged along by the special interest organizations tha speak the loudest......because we allow it.

My favorite saying each day when I hear the news is....the majority loses another one!!!!!!!!

btk

[2BNTV]

It's unfortunate that bad news sells so the media reports a lot of bad stuff. Ted Turner developed a news program that only reported good news and he pulled it after two weeks. Bad news sells.

Although I am careful than most in what I do, I am not unaware that bad things will happen but I would like to think this is overshadowed by the good of the the majority. We don't hear of the things like my best friends son donating his time to the cleanup from Sandy's aftermath even though he was unaffected.

I think there is a general lack of respect and instant gratification more so in the younger generation but I prefer the rest my opinion on an individual basis. I'm sure my fathers generation felt the same way.

[Bonnevie]

I, too, think it's more an individual thing rather than a generation. I work with people of all generations and I've found in all of them there are people who will scam the system. I have to keep telling myself I'm seeing the 10% that do while there are millions that don't. but it's hard sometimes to see the levels people go to bilk the government.

[Monkei]

"I am not sure that attacks on Christianity are happening" Really??? Why do you think people now say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the kids can't pray in school, or mention God at their commencement. Why the city of Las Cruces NM had to go to court to keep their city seal of 3 crosses? and on and on. Oh yes, there is an attack on values, don't kid yourself.

Attack on values I can buy, what I can't fathom is why you think Christians and Christianity have cornered the market on values.

Happy holidays, what's wrong with that? Why not encompass all, I find my self saying both. What I don't say to everyone I see is happy Chanukah, happy new year, and Merry Christmas. Heck I may not see them again during the holiday season. If you call that an attack on Christianity, well ok.

Praying in public school I have no problem, at lunch children can say a prayer or two on their own. What's the problem with that? What I don't want to see is my grand kids having to sit and wait for the little Muslim kids to finish theirs, then the Hindu children, etc etc. the same people who complain that we don't have prayer in school really mean to say we should have Christian prayer in our public schools. They would never allow the Muslim kids the same right in their public schools. Here is a thought. They are called public schools, there are plenty of christian schools and catholic schools out there. Want to expand your children's Christian teachings then maybe the public school is not the right choice. I hardly think that is an attack on Christianity either.

No I don't think there is an army or groups of people out there who are fighting Christianity.

Getting back to the war on Christmas ... And boycotting and complaining about stores that no longer say merry Christmas but happy holidays. Well your real issue should be why does one day on the calendar encompass from October to January now. I am sure the greeters at Target are confused as hell belting out a merry Christmas when kids are buying their Spider-Man costumes for Halloween. War on Christianity and Christmas ... Big business who take 3 months out of the year to celebrate it.

[Monkei]

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

This was written by Socrates. Seems like the same complaints we have today about kids. We're always going to rail against the younger generation (except, of course, our perfect children and grandchildren).

Like all societies, we have good and bad elements. If you have doubts, look at how many around the world have come to the aid of Hurricane Sandy victims. You may not read about how someone helped a stranger, but I'm sure you've heard about it and not just here in TV. And, of course, there is the bad -- that we hear about on a daily basis on TV, on the internet, from neighbors, here.

There have always been people willing to take advantage of others. There always will be. There will always be flaws in any form of government. Let's face it, anything run by groups rather than ethical individuals is going to have problems -- at best, mediocrity will be the norm. We've abdicated our rights for comfort and security.

Personally, I'm getting tired of being policed for my own good. A friend just told me that when she flew up north all women's handbags had to be given to the flight attendant before the plane could take off. Excuse me???? I'm supposed to be searched, x-rayed, have personal items go through machines and now give up my purse and property to a stranger. To me, the biggest problem with this society is the willingness to give up personal freedoms for "security". I flinched when Homeland Security laws were announced and cried when they came into effect. America was based on the right to be free; the right to make personal choices. Those rights are being taken away on a daily basis and that truly scares me a lot more than the bad behavior of some or the risk of a mass murderer.

I agree with you totally. When this country passed the Patriot Act, in effect the terrorists won.

[janmcn]

Kids can pray to whatever God they wish in school. They just can't use taxpayer dollars to support those prayers. It's the school's choice - prayers or tax dollars.

[gomoho]

But they also don't say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore. Just saying Kids were better educated and behaved when we had values and personal responsibility in our schools.
Our country was built on Judeo/Christian values whether you want to admit it or not. Why is it okay to start a session of Congress with a prayer, but not the school day. Why does our money say "in God we trust". This is what our country was built on and it seems when we started turning our back on these ideas is when we started going to hell in a handbasket. Believe me I am not a born-again religious zealot, but I do believe when we as a country started turning our back on a Higher Power we are now seeing the consequences. Just an opinion of a boomer that lived through drugs, sex and rock-and-roll who scratches her head thinking "what the hell did we do"???

[Monkei]

But they also don't say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore. Just saying Kids were better educated and behaved when we had values and personal responsibility in our schools.
Our country was built on Judeo/Christian values whether you want to admit it or not. Why is it okay to start a session of Congress with a prayer, but not the school day. Why does our money say "in God we trust". This is what our country was built on and it seems when we started turning our back on these ideas is when we started going to hell in a handbasket. Believe me I am not a born-again religious zealot, but I do believe when we as a country started turning our back on a Higher Power we are now seeing the consequences. Just an opinion of a boomer that lived through drugs, sex and rock-and-roll who scratches her head thinking "what the hell did we do"???

We canT start school with a prayer because we would never agree on which prayer or god we want to pray to. How do I know this? In Tennessee the Muslims were trying to build a mosque and it finally got built but not until it was fire bombed a couple of times during the process. We as Americans like to wave our constitution and bill of rights around when it pertains to our beliefs are not to quick to support those who have equal rights but just not the same as ours. We scream about a Muslim outreach center being built down the street from the World Trade Center but we have no problems with the gentlemens clubs and bars in between both sites.

We don't say the pledge anymore but that has nothing to do with religious values. Worse yet we don't teach simple civics or government anymore either.

[gomoho]

"We scream about a Muslim outreach center being built down the street from the World Trade Center but we have no problems with the gentlemens clubs and bars in between both sites"

Monkei - I don't want to open this can of worms but I don't think any strippers have ever posed a national security risk! Well there was that issue with Petraeus.

[Monkei]

"We scream about a Muslim outreach center being built down the street from the World Trade Center but we have no problems with the gentlemens clubs and bars in between both sites"

Monkei - I don't want to open this can of worms but I don't think any strippers have ever posed a national security risk! Well there was that issue with Petraeus.

Was not sure that an outreach center was a security risk, but I can live with strippers and bars, I say allow them all, not just one or the other.

[redwitch]

But they also don't say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore. Just saying Kids were better educated and behaved when we had values and personal responsibility in our schools.
Our country was built on Judeo/Christian values whether you want to admit it or not. Why is it okay to start a session of Congress with a prayer, but not the school day. Why does our money say "in God we trust". This is what our country was built on and it seems when we started turning our back on these ideas is when we started going to hell in a handbasket. Believe me I am not a born-again religious zealot, but I do believe when we as a country started turning our back on a Higher Power we are now seeing the consequences. Just an opinion of a boomer that lived through drugs, sex and rock-and-roll who scratches her head thinking "what the hell did we do"???

Don't know about you but I remember the kids who couldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance because of their religion. They were teased and bullied. Even some of the teachers were pretty brutal to these kids. I vividly remember a little girl when I was in third grade in tears because the prayer said in class mentioned both God and Jesus -- she was Jewish and was devastated that she could not participate in a class function. Rather than change the wording of the prayer, the teacher sent her out of the room while prayers were said.

Given a choice between seeing a child hurt and bullied for being "different" and giving up prayer and the Pledge in class, I'll go with losing something. Parents really can teach a love of God and country without involving the school. My grandson is three and stands up straight every time he sees the American flag going past him. I taught him that and I will continue to teach him about respect and honor for this nation and the people both here and around the world. His mother takes him to church on a regular basis, says his prayers with him and keeps God with him on a daily basis. That is her choice, just as it was mine to teach her about God. She doesn't need a school to teach him that.

What seems to be missing today to me is good parenting. Kids don't need their parents to be their best friends, they need their parents to be their parents. As was said previously, kids need to learn that failure is okay and that not everyone wins; that they need to take responsibility for their actions. Kids need good examples. They need to be taught honor, self-respect, responsibility, morality. Those things, to me, seem to be missing by many today -- making sure a child has high self-esteem seems to be much more important.

[Monkei]

Red witch I think alll of us who were in elementary school in the 50s have a similar story to tell.

[Emery Eaton]

With the over stimulation in our culture through media and technology, have we become immune to the tragedy? Are we numb to the things that go on? I don't think older generations are, because the moral compass was there, and that does not go away that easy. Imagine an 18 year old who has grown up with that over stimulation and numbness though. They don't feel the way you and I would.

It really takes parenting from a young age. I am 35 years old with 2 kids (5 and 3). Turning the TV off, no video games, and getting outside to play with other kids has become invaluable so far. So simple, yet so distant in this day of age where the video game player has become the babysitter.

I would never ever insinuate that the parents of this killer were not good parents. All I am saying is when the culture has become so numb to the violence there are negative externalities that occur. I just hope that parents begin waking up to this violence, give their kids a hug, shut off the tv, sit around the dinner table, and talk about the life and love.

[Geewiz]

Oh gosh - I'm gonna lose many of you.

Some easy stuff:

1. I worked in fed anti-fraud word for much of my working life while in the evening worked inn the arts. From the art perspective, I abhor censorship. From anti-fraud work - I can tell you that, aside from obvious "bad guys," folks who you would consider are "good" are capable of doing stuff to get themselves in serious legal trouble.

2. Folks with serious mental problems (many not so obvious) and weapons - from guns to fertilizer - are not a good mix. That's so clear, it's a "duh." How we fix that is very political and I'm not getting into that debate.

But, why "normal" folks behave the way they do - good or bad - is interesting and very complex.

Here is where I may lose some of you...but, if you hang in there, the work will be worth it. This is a summary of Louis Pierre Althusser's ideas - if you research him you may hate many of his ideas...but, this bit is very good and hard to understand...still, worth trying:

Althusser held that a person's desires, choices, intentions, preferences, judgements, and so forth are the products of social practices, he believed it necessary to conceive of how society makes the individual in its own image.

Within capitalist societies, the human individual is generally regarded as a subject endowed with the property of being a self-conscious, "responsible" agent whose actions can be explained by his or her beliefs and thoughts.

For Althusser, however, a person's capacity for perceiving him or herself in this way is not innate or given. Rather, it is acquired within the structure of established social practices, which impose on individuals the role (forme) of a subject.

Social practices both determine the characteristics of the individual and give him or her an idea of the range of properties that he or she can have, and of the limits of each individual.

Althusser argues that many of our roles and activities are given to us by social practice: for example, the production of steelworkers is a part of economic practice, while the production of lawyers is part of politico-legal practice. However, other characteristics of individuals, such as their beliefs about the good life or their metaphysical reflections on the nature of the self, do not easily fit into these categories.

In Althusser's view, our values, desires, and preferences are inculcated in us by ideological practice, the sphere which has the defining property of constituting individuals as subjects.

Ideological practice consists of an assortment of institutions called "Ideological State Apparatuses" (ISAs), which include the family, the media, religious organisations, and most importantly in capitalist societies, the education system, as well as the received ideas that they propagate.

There is, however, no single ISA that produces in us the belief that we are self-conscious agents. Instead, we derive this belief in the course of learning what it is to be a daughter, a schoolchild, black, a steelworker, a councillor, and so forth.

Despite its many institutional forms, the function and structure of ideology is unchanging and present throughout history; as Althusser states, "ideology has no history".

All ideologies constitute a subject, even though he or she may differ according to each particular ideology. Memorably, Althusser illustrates this with the concept of "hailing" or "interpellation," which draws heavily from Lacan and his concept of the Mirror Stage.

He compares ideology to a policeman shouting "Hey you there!" toward a person walking on the street. Upon hearing this call, the person responds by turning around and in doing so, is transformed into a subject.

The person is conscious of being a subject and aware of the other person. Thus, for Althusser, being aware of other people is a form of ideology. Within that, Althusser sees subjectivity as a type of ideology. The person being hailed recognizes him or herself as the subject of the hail, and knows to respond.

Althusser calls this recognition a "mis-recognition" (méconnaissance), because it works retroactively: a material individual is always already an ideological subject, even before he or she is born.

The "transformation" of an individual into a subject has always already happened; Althusser here acknowledges a debt to Spinoza's theory of immanence. To highlight this, Althusser offers the example of Christian religious ideology, embodied in the Voice of God, instructing a person on what his place in the world is and what he must do to be reconciled with Christ.

From this, Althusser draws the point that in order for that person to identify himself as a Christian, he must first already be a subject; that is, by responding to God's call and following

His rules, he affirms himself as a free agent, the author of the acts for which he assumes responsibility. We cannot recognize ourselves outside of ideology, and in fact, our very actions reach out to this overarching structure. For Althusser, we acquire our identities by seeing ourselves mirrored in ideologies.

Further, Althusser advances two theses on ideology: "Ideology represents the imaginary relationship of individuals to their real conditions of existence"; and "Ideology has a material existence". The first thesis tenders the familiar Marxist contention that ideologies have the function of masking the exploitative arrangements on which class societies are based.

The second thesis posits that ideology does not exist in the form of "ideas" or conscious "representations" in the "minds" of individuals. Rather, ideology consists of the actions and behaviours of bodies governed by their disposition within material apparatuses.

Central to the view of individuals as responsible subjects is the notion of an explanatory link between belief and action, that “every 'subject' endowed with a 'consciousness' and believing in the 'ideas' that his 'consciousness' inspires in him and freely accepts, must act according to his ideas", must therefore inscribe his own ideas as a free subject in the actions of his material practice.”

For Althusser, this is yet another effect of social practice:

"I shall therefore say that, where only a single subject (such and such individual) is concerned, the existence of the ideas of his belief is material in that his ideas are his material actions inserted into his material practices governed by material rituals which are themselves defined by the material ideological apparatus from which we derive the ideas of that subject...Ideas have disappeared as such (insofar as they are endowed with an ideal or spiritual existence), to the precise extent that it has emerged that their existence is inscribed in the actions of practices governed by rituals defined in the last instance by an ideological apparatus. It therefore appears that the subject acts insofar as he is acted by the following system (set out in the order of its real determination): ideology existing in a material ideological apparatus, describing material practices governed by a material ritual, which practices exist in the material actions of a subject acting in all consciousness according to his belief.”

These material rituals may be compared with Bourdieu's concept of habitus. ISAs may also anticipate Foucault's disciplinary institutions, which provide a critical rethinking of Althusser.

Althusser also recognized the role played by what he termed the "Repressive State Apparatus" (RSA). According to Althusser, the basic function of the RSA (heads of state, government, police, courts, army, etc.) is to intervene and act in favour of the ruling class by repressing the ruled class through violent and coercive means. The RSA is controlled by the ruling class, because more often than not, the ruling class possesses state power. He accentuates the differences between the RSA and the ISAs as follows:

1. The RSA functions as a unified entity (an organized whole) as opposed to the ISA, which is diverse and plural. However, what unites the disparate ISAs is the fact that they are ultimately controlled by the ruling ideology.

2. The RSA functions predominantly by means of repression and violence and secondarily by ideology, whereas the ISAs function predominantly by ideology and secondarily by repression and violence. The ISAs function in a concealed and a symbolic manner.

At times when individuals and groups pose a threat to the dominant order, the state invokes the Repressive State Apparatus. The most benign measures taken by the RSA are the systems of law and courts, where putatively public contractual language is invoked in order to govern individual and collective behaviour. As threats to the dominant order mount, the state turns to increasingly physical and severe measures in response: incarceration, police force, and ultimately military intervention.

Perry Anderson, in his essay "Considerations on Western Marxism", writes that
"despite the huge popularity gained by the concept in many circles, ISA as a concept was never theorised by Althusser himself in any serious manner. It was merely conceived as a conjunctural and temporary tool to challenge the contemporary liberalism within the French Communist Party. A further elaboration of the concept in the hands of Nicos Paulantzas was easily demolished by Ralph Miliband in the exchanges over the pages of New Left Review. For, if all the institutions of civil society are conceptualised as part of the state, then a mere electoral victory of a left wing student organisation in a University can also be said to be a victory over a part of the state!"

The point is that folks behave in a good or bad manner due to a a variety of outside influences ... some the state can try to control; but most the state can only try to control.

For better or worse we have created a society that provides us with certain freedoms and with those freedoms comes a loss of control of the ideology that governs behavior. Simplistic solutions and easy judgments will not solve complex problems. People do what people do and unless we are willing to surrender certain basic freedoms - we will have to learn to accept the social cost - even if that means more Newtowns and Auroras.

Cheers!

[DougB]

Don't know what schools are being referenced, but I recently moved here from Brevard County on the east coast of Florida and all 84 Brevard public schools begin the day with the Pledge to the Flag!

[graciegirl]

Oh gosh - I'm gonna lose many of you.

Some easy stuff:

1. I worked in fed anti-fraud word for much of my working life while in the evening worked inn the arts. From the art perspective, I abhor censorship. From anti-fraud work - I can tell you that, aside from obvious "bad guys," folks who you would consider are "good" are capable of doing stuff to get themselves in serious legal trouble.

2. Folks with serious mental problems (many not so obvious) and weapons - from guns to fertilizer - are not a good mix. That's so clear, it's a "duh." How we fix that is very political and I'm not getting into that debate.

But, why "normal" folks behave the way they do - good or bad - is interesting and very complex.

Here is where I may lose some of you...but, if you hang in there, the work will be worth it. This is a summary of Louis Pierre Althusser's ideas - if you research him you may hate many of his ideas...but, this bit is very good and hard to understand...still, worth trying:

Althusser held that a person's desires, choices, intentions, preferences, judgements, and so forth are the products of social practices, he believed it necessary to conceive of how society makes the individual in its own image.

Within capitalist societies, the human individual is generally regarded as a subject endowed with the property of being a self-conscious, "responsible" agent whose actions can be explained by his or her beliefs and thoughts.

For Althusser, however, a person's capacity for perceiving him or herself in this way is not innate or given. Rather, it is acquired within the structure of established social practices, which impose on individuals the role (forme) of a subject.

Social practices both determine the characteristics of the individual and give him or her an idea of the range of properties that he or she can have, and of the limits of each individual.

Althusser argues that many of our roles and activities are given to us by social practice: for example, the production of steelworkers is a part of economic practice, while the production of lawyers is part of politico-legal practice. However, other characteristics of individuals, such as their beliefs about the good life or their metaphysical reflections on the nature of the self, do not easily fit into these categories.

In Althusser's view, our values, desires, and preferences are inculcated in us by ideological practice, the sphere which has the defining property of constituting individuals as subjects.

Ideological practice consists of an assortment of institutions called "Ideological State Apparatuses" (ISAs), which include the family, the media, religious organisations, and most importantly in capitalist societies, the education system, as well as the received ideas that they propagate.

There is, however, no single ISA that produces in us the belief that we are self-conscious agents. Instead, we derive this belief in the course of learning what it is to be a daughter, a schoolchild, black, a steelworker, a councillor, and so forth.

Despite its many institutional forms, the function and structure of ideology is unchanging and present throughout history; as Althusser states, "ideology has no history".

All ideologies constitute a subject, even though he or she may differ according to each particular ideology. Memorably, Althusser illustrates this with the concept of "hailing" or "interpellation," which draws heavily from Lacan and his concept of the Mirror Stage.

He compares ideology to a policeman shouting "Hey you there!" toward a person walking on the street. Upon hearing this call, the person responds by turning around and in doing so, is transformed into a subject.

The person is conscious of being a subject and aware of the other person. Thus, for Althusser, being aware of other people is a form of ideology. Within that, Althusser sees subjectivity as a type of ideology. The person being hailed recognizes him or herself as the subject of the hail, and knows to respond.

Althusser calls this recognition a "mis-recognition" (méconnaissance), because it works retroactively: a material individual is always already an ideological subject, even before he or she is born.

The "transformation" of an individual into a subject has always already happened; Althusser here acknowledges a debt to Spinoza's theory of immanence. To highlight this, Althusser offers the example of Christian religious ideology, embodied in the Voice of God, instructing a person on what his place in the world is and what he must do to be reconciled with Christ.

From this, Althusser draws the point that in order for that person to identify himself as a Christian, he must first already be a subject; that is, by responding to God's call and following

His rules, he affirms himself as a free agent, the author of the acts for which he assumes responsibility. We cannot recognize ourselves outside of ideology, and in fact, our very actions reach out to this overarching structure. For Althusser, we acquire our identities by seeing ourselves mirrored in ideologies.

Further, Althusser advances two theses on ideology: "Ideology represents the imaginary relationship of individuals to their real conditions of existence"; and "Ideology has a material existence". The first thesis tenders the familiar Marxist contention that ideologies have the function of masking the exploitative arrangements on which class societies are based.

The second thesis posits that ideology does not exist in the form of "ideas" or conscious "representations" in the "minds" of individuals. Rather, ideology consists of the actions and behaviours of bodies governed by their disposition within material apparatuses.

Central to the view of individuals as responsible subjects is the notion of an explanatory link between belief and action, that “every 'subject' endowed with a 'consciousness' and believing in the 'ideas' that his 'consciousness' inspires in him and freely accepts, must act according to his ideas", must therefore inscribe his own ideas as a free subject in the actions of his material practice.”

For Althusser, this is yet another effect of social practice:

"I shall therefore say that, where only a single subject (such and such individual) is concerned, the existence of the ideas of his belief is material in that his ideas are his material actions inserted into his material practices governed by material rituals which are themselves defined by the material ideological apparatus from which we derive the ideas of that subject...Ideas have disappeared as such (insofar as they are endowed with an ideal or spiritual existence), to the precise extent that it has emerged that their existence is inscribed in the actions of practices governed by rituals defined in the last instance by an ideological apparatus. It therefore appears that the subject acts insofar as he is acted by the following system (set out in the order of its real determination): ideology existing in a material ideological apparatus, describing material practices governed by a material ritual, which practices exist in the material actions of a subject acting in all consciousness according to his belief.”

These material rituals may be compared with Bourdieu's concept of habitus. ISAs may also anticipate Foucault's disciplinary institutions, which provide a critical rethinking of Althusser.

Althusser also recognized the role played by what he termed the "Repressive State Apparatus" (RSA). According to Althusser, the basic function of the RSA (heads of state, government, police, courts, army, etc.) is to intervene and act in favour of the ruling class by repressing the ruled class through violent and coercive means. The RSA is controlled by the ruling class, because more often than not, the ruling class possesses state power. He accentuates the differences between the RSA and the ISAs as follows:

1. The RSA functions as a unified entity (an organized whole) as opposed to the ISA, which is diverse and plural. However, what unites the disparate ISAs is the fact that they are ultimately controlled by the ruling ideology.

2. The RSA functions predominantly by means of repression and violence and secondarily by ideology, whereas the ISAs function predominantly by ideology and secondarily by repression and violence. The ISAs function in a concealed and a symbolic manner.

At times when individuals and groups pose a threat to the dominant order, the state invokes the Repressive State Apparatus. The most benign measures taken by the RSA are the systems of law and courts, where putatively public contractual language is invoked in order to govern individual and collective behaviour. As threats to the dominant order mount, the state turns to increasingly physical and severe measures in response: incarceration, police force, and ultimately military intervention.

Perry Anderson, in his essay "Considerations on Western Marxism", writes that
"despite the huge popularity gained by the concept in many circles, ISA as a concept was never theorised by Althusser himself in any serious manner. It was merely conceived as a conjunctural and temporary tool to challenge the contemporary liberalism within the French Communist Party. A further elaboration of the concept in the hands of Nicos Paulantzas was easily demolished by Ralph Miliband in the exchanges over the pages of New Left Review. For, if all the institutions of civil society are conceptualised as part of the state, then a mere electoral victory of a left wing student organisation in a University can also be said to be a victory over a part of the state!"

The point is that folks behave in a good or bad manner due to a a variety of outside influences ... some the state can try to control; but most the state can only try to control.

For better or worse we have created a society that provides us with certain freedoms and with those freedoms comes a loss of control of the ideology that governs behavior. Simplistic solutions and easy judgments will not solve complex problems. People do what people do and unless we are willing to surrender certain basic freedoms - we will have to learn to accept the social cost - even if that means more Newtowns and Auroras.

Cheers!

I think this could be summarized somehow. It is fortunate/ unfortunate that homo sapiens are consided to be the highest functioning form of animals, but.....you can only change the inate qualities of our animalness so much. We are hard wired to survive, protect our offsprings and run in packs.

I think that things have changed a lot in my lifetime and either respect for others out of fear or behavior modification or education or parenting or whatever is quickly leaving the building.

Thank Goodness most of us are in the third quarter of the game......
So...

It's a beautiful day in the villages.

Try to be an example of what you respect.

[Patty55]

Oh gosh - I'm gonna lose many of you.

Some easy stuff:

1. I worked in fed anti-fraud word for much of my working life while in the evening worked inn the arts. From the art perspective, I abhor censorship. From anti-fraud work - I can tell you that, aside from obvious "bad guys," folks who you would consider are "good" are capable of doing stuff to get themselves in serious legal trouble.

2. Folks with serious mental problems (many not so obvious) and weapons - from guns to fertilizer - are not a good mix. That's so clear, it's a "duh." How we fix that is very political and I'm not getting into that debate.

But, why "normal" folks behave the way they do - good or bad - is interesting and very complex.

Here is where I may lose some of you...but, if you hang in there, the work will be worth it. This is a summary of Louis Pierre Althusser's ideas - if you research him you may hate many of his ideas...but, this bit is very good and hard to understand...still, worth trying:

Althusser held that a person's desires, choices, intentions, preferences, judgements, and so forth are the products of social practices, he believed it necessary to conceive of how society makes the individual in its own image.

Within capitalist societies, the human individual is generally regarded as a subject endowed with the property of being a self-conscious, "responsible" agent whose actions can be explained by his or her beliefs and thoughts.

For Althusser, however, a person's capacity for perceiving him or herself in this way is not innate or given. Rather, it is acquired within the structure of established social practices, which impose on individuals the role (forme) of a subject.

Social practices both determine the characteristics of the individual and give him or her an idea of the range of properties that he or she can have, and of the limits of each individual.

Althusser argues that many of our roles and activities are given to us by social practice: for example, the production of steelworkers is a part of economic practice, while the production of lawyers is part of politico-legal practice. However, other characteristics of individuals, such as their beliefs about the good life or their metaphysical reflections on the nature of the self, do not easily fit into these categories.

In Althusser's view, our values, desires, and preferences are inculcated in us by ideological practice, the sphere which has the defining property of constituting individuals as subjects.

Ideological practice consists of an assortment of institutions called "Ideological State Apparatuses" (ISAs), which include the family, the media, religious organisations, and most importantly in capitalist societies, the education system, as well as the received ideas that they propagate.

There is, however, no single ISA that produces in us the belief that we are self-conscious agents. Instead, we derive this belief in the course of learning what it is to be a daughter, a schoolchild, black, a steelworker, a councillor, and so forth.

Despite its many institutional forms, the function and structure of ideology is unchanging and present throughout history; as Althusser states, "ideology has no history".

All ideologies constitute a subject, even though he or she may differ according to each particular ideology. Memorably, Althusser illustrates this with the concept of "hailing" or "interpellation," which draws heavily from Lacan and his concept of the Mirror Stage.

He compares ideology to a policeman shouting "Hey you there!" toward a person walking on the street. Upon hearing this call, the person responds by turning around and in doing so, is transformed into a subject.

The person is conscious of being a subject and aware of the other person. Thus, for Althusser, being aware of other people is a form of ideology. Within that, Althusser sees subjectivity as a type of ideology. The person being hailed recognizes him or herself as the subject of the hail, and knows to respond.

Althusser calls this recognition a "mis-recognition" (méconnaissance), because it works retroactively: a material individual is always already an ideological subject, even before he or she is born.

The "transformation" of an individual into a subject has always already happened; Althusser here acknowledges a debt to Spinoza's theory of immanence. To highlight this, Althusser offers the example of Christian religious ideology, embodied in the Voice of God, instructing a person on what his place in the world is and what he must do to be reconciled with Christ.

From this, Althusser draws the point that in order for that person to identify himself as a Christian, he must first already be a subject; that is, by responding to God's call and following

His rules, he affirms himself as a free agent, the author of the acts for which he assumes responsibility. We cannot recognize ourselves outside of ideology, and in fact, our very actions reach out to this overarching structure. For Althusser, we acquire our identities by seeing ourselves mirrored in ideologies.

Further, Althusser advances two theses on ideology: "Ideology represents the imaginary relationship of individuals to their real conditions of existence"; and "Ideology has a material existence". The first thesis tenders the familiar Marxist contention that ideologies have the function of masking the exploitative arrangements on which class societies are based.

The second thesis posits that ideology does not exist in the form of "ideas" or conscious "representations" in the "minds" of individuals. Rather, ideology consists of the actions and behaviours of bodies governed by their disposition within material apparatuses.

Central to the view of individuals as responsible subjects is the notion of an explanatory link between belief and action, that “every 'subject' endowed with a 'consciousness' and believing in the 'ideas' that his 'consciousness' inspires in him and freely accepts, must act according to his ideas", must therefore inscribe his own ideas as a free subject in the actions of his material practice.”

For Althusser, this is yet another effect of social practice:

"I shall therefore say that, where only a single subject (such and such individual) is concerned, the existence of the ideas of his belief is material in that his ideas are his material actions inserted into his material practices governed by material rituals which are themselves defined by the material ideological apparatus from which we derive the ideas of that subject...Ideas have disappeared as such (insofar as they are endowed with an ideal or spiritual existence), to the precise extent that it has emerged that their existence is inscribed in the actions of practices governed by rituals defined in the last instance by an ideological apparatus. It therefore appears that the subject acts insofar as he is acted by the following system (set out in the order of its real determination): ideology existing in a material ideological apparatus, describing material practices governed by a material ritual, which practices exist in the material actions of a subject acting in all consciousness according to his belief.”

These material rituals may be compared with Bourdieu's concept of habitus. ISAs may also anticipate Foucault's disciplinary institutions, which provide a critical rethinking of Althusser.

Althusser also recognized the role played by what he termed the "Repressive State Apparatus" (RSA). According to Althusser, the basic function of the RSA (heads of state, government, police, courts, army, etc.) is to intervene and act in favour of the ruling class by repressing the ruled class through violent and coercive means. The RSA is controlled by the ruling class, because more often than not, the ruling class possesses state power. He accentuates the differences between the RSA and the ISAs as follows:

1. The RSA functions as a unified entity (an organized whole) as opposed to the ISA, which is diverse and plural. However, what unites the disparate ISAs is the fact that they are ultimately controlled by the ruling ideology.

2. The RSA functions predominantly by means of repression and violence and secondarily by ideology, whereas the ISAs function predominantly by ideology and secondarily by repression and violence. The ISAs function in a concealed and a symbolic manner.

At times when individuals and groups pose a threat to the dominant order, the state invokes the Repressive State Apparatus. The most benign measures taken by the RSA are the systems of law and courts, where putatively public contractual language is invoked in order to govern individual and collective behaviour. As threats to the dominant order mount, the state turns to increasingly physical and severe measures in response: incarceration, police force, and ultimately military intervention.

Perry Anderson, in his essay "Considerations on Western Marxism", writes that
"despite the huge popularity gained by the concept in many circles, ISA as a concept was never theorised by Althusser himself in any serious manner. It was merely conceived as a conjunctural and temporary tool to challenge the contemporary liberalism within the French Communist Party. A further elaboration of the concept in the hands of Nicos Paulantzas was easily demolished by Ralph Miliband in the exchanges over the pages of New Left Review. For, if all the institutions of civil society are conceptualised as part of the state, then a mere electoral victory of a left wing student organisation in a University can also be said to be a victory over a part of the state!"

The point is that folks behave in a good or bad manner due to a a variety of outside influences ... some the state can try to control; but most the state can only try to control.

For better or worse we have created a society that provides us with certain freedoms and with those freedoms comes a loss of control of the ideology that governs behavior. Simplistic solutions and easy judgments will not solve complex problems. People do what people do and unless we are willing to surrender certain basic freedoms - we will have to learn to accept the social cost - even if that means more Newtowns and Auroras.

Cheers!

WHOA, that sure simplified it for me.

[travelguy]

Don't know what schools are being referenced, but I recently moved here from Brevard County on the east coast of Florida and all 84 Brevard public schools begin the day with the Pledge to the Flag!

are you now going to tell me that everything was fine in our schools when we had forced bible readings each morning? or the forced recitation of the Lord's Prayer?
chilout

[graciegirl]

are you now going to tell me that everything was fine in our schools when we had forced bible readings each morning? or the forced recitation of the Lord's Prayer?
chilout

I think school systems must differ in this country a LOT. In Ohio where I grew up and taught, only parochial schools had religious programs. I never ran across any bible readings or Lords Prayers in public schools there.

We do jump around a lot on this thread. I am still trying to figure out paul or jeans comment about ghettos.

[gomoho]

Uh, last time I checked this was the United State of America. Don't want to pledge to the flag in the country in which you live and receive all the benefits attached well then I don't really know what to say. GET OVER IT!

[Bogie Shooter]

Oh gosh - I'm gonna lose many of you.

Cheers!

This guy understands.................

[2BNTV]

Oh gosh - I'm gonna lose many of you.

Some easy stuff:

1. I worked in fed anti-fraud word for much of my working life while in the evening worked inn the arts. From the art perspective, I abhor censorship. From anti-fraud work - I can tell you that, aside from obvious "bad guys," folks who you would consider are "good" are capable of doing stuff to get themselves in serious legal trouble.

2. Folks with serious mental problems (many not so obvious) and weapons - from guns to fertilizer - are not a good mix. That's so clear, it's a "duh." How we fix that is very political and I'm not getting into that debate.

But, why "normal" folks behave the way they do - good or bad - is interesting and very complex.

Here is where I may lose some of you...but, if you hang in there, the work will be worth it. This is a summary of Louis Pierre Althusser's ideas - if you research him you may hate many of his ideas...but, this bit is very good and hard to understand...still, worth trying:

Althusser held that a person's desires, choices, intentions, preferences, judgements, and so forth are the products of social practices, he believed it necessary to conceive of how society makes the individual in its own image.

Within capitalist societies, the human individual is generally regarded as a subject endowed with the property of being a self-conscious, "responsible" agent whose actions can be explained by his or her beliefs and thoughts.

For Althusser, however, a person's capacity for perceiving him or herself in this way is not innate or given. Rather, it is acquired within the structure of established social practices, which impose on individuals the role (forme) of a subject.

Social practices both determine the characteristics of the individual and give him or her an idea of the range of properties that he or she can have, and of the limits of each individual.

Althusser argues that many of our roles and activities are given to us by social practice: for example, the production of steelworkers is a part of economic practice, while the production of lawyers is part of politico-legal practice. However, other characteristics of individuals, such as their beliefs about the good life or their metaphysical reflections on the nature of the self, do not easily fit into these categories.

In Althusser's view, our values, desires, and preferences are inculcated in us by ideological practice, the sphere which has the defining property of constituting individuals as subjects.

Ideological practice consists of an assortment of institutions called "Ideological State Apparatuses" (ISAs), which include the family, the media, religious organisations, and most importantly in capitalist societies, the education system, as well as the received ideas that they propagate.

There is, however, no single ISA that produces in us the belief that we are self-conscious agents. Instead, we derive this belief in the course of learning what it is to be a daughter, a schoolchild, black, a steelworker, a councillor, and so forth.

Despite its many institutional forms, the function and structure of ideology is unchanging and present throughout history; as Althusser states, "ideology has no history".

All ideologies constitute a subject, even though he or she may differ according to each particular ideology. Memorably, Althusser illustrates this with the concept of "hailing" or "interpellation," which draws heavily from Lacan and his concept of the Mirror Stage.

He compares ideology to a policeman shouting "Hey you there!" toward a person walking on the street. Upon hearing this call, the person responds by turning around and in doing so, is transformed into a subject.

The person is conscious of being a subject and aware of the other person. Thus, for Althusser, being aware of other people is a form of ideology. Within that, Althusser sees subjectivity as a type of ideology. The person being hailed recognizes him or herself as the subject of the hail, and knows to respond.

Althusser calls this recognition a "mis-recognition" (méconnaissance), because it works retroactively: a material individual is always already an ideological subject, even before he or she is born.

The "transformation" of an individual into a subject has always already happened; Althusser here acknowledges a debt to Spinoza's theory of immanence. To highlight this, Althusser offers the example of Christian religious ideology, embodied in the Voice of God, instructing a person on what his place in the world is and what he must do to be reconciled with Christ.

From this, Althusser draws the point that in order for that person to identify himself as a Christian, he must first already be a subject; that is, by responding to God's call and following

His rules, he affirms himself as a free agent, the author of the acts for which he assumes responsibility. We cannot recognize ourselves outside of ideology, and in fact, our very actions reach out to this overarching structure. For Althusser, we acquire our identities by seeing ourselves mirrored in ideologies.

Further, Althusser advances two theses on ideology: "Ideology represents the imaginary relationship of individuals to their real conditions of existence"; and "Ideology has a material existence". The first thesis tenders the familiar Marxist contention that ideologies have the function of masking the exploitative arrangements on which class societies are based.

The second thesis posits that ideology does not exist in the form of "ideas" or conscious "representations" in the "minds" of individuals. Rather, ideology consists of the actions and behaviours of bodies governed by their disposition within material apparatuses.

Central to the view of individuals as responsible subjects is the notion of an explanatory link between belief and action, that “every 'subject' endowed with a 'consciousness' and believing in the 'ideas' that his 'consciousness' inspires in him and freely accepts, must act according to his ideas", must therefore inscribe his own ideas as a free subject in the actions of his material practice.”

For Althusser, this is yet another effect of social practice:

"I shall therefore say that, where only a single subject (such and such individual) is concerned, the existence of the ideas of his belief is material in that his ideas are his material actions inserted into his material practices governed by material rituals which are themselves defined by the material ideological apparatus from which we derive the ideas of that subject...Ideas have disappeared as such (insofar as they are endowed with an ideal or spiritual existence), to the precise extent that it has emerged that their existence is inscribed in the actions of practices governed by rituals defined in the last instance by an ideological apparatus. It therefore appears that the subject acts insofar as he is acted by the following system (set out in the order of its real determination): ideology existing in a material ideological apparatus, describing material practices governed by a material ritual, which practices exist in the material actions of a subject acting in all consciousness according to his belief.”

These material rituals may be compared with Bourdieu's concept of habitus. ISAs may also anticipate Foucault's disciplinary institutions, which provide a critical rethinking of Althusser.

Althusser also recognized the role played by what he termed the "Repressive State Apparatus" (RSA). According to Althusser, the basic function of the RSA (heads of state, government, police, courts, army, etc.) is to intervene and act in favour of the ruling class by repressing the ruled class through violent and coercive means. The RSA is controlled by the ruling class, because more often than not, the ruling class possesses state power. He accentuates the differences between the RSA and the ISAs as follows:

1. The RSA functions as a unified entity (an organized whole) as opposed to the ISA, which is diverse and plural. However, what unites the disparate ISAs is the fact that they are ultimately controlled by the ruling ideology.

2. The RSA functions predominantly by means of repression and violence and secondarily by ideology, whereas the ISAs function predominantly by ideology and secondarily by repression and violence. The ISAs function in a concealed and a symbolic manner.

At times when individuals and groups pose a threat to the dominant order, the state invokes the Repressive State Apparatus. The most benign measures taken by the RSA are the systems of law and courts, where putatively public contractual language is invoked in order to govern individual and collective behaviour. As threats to the dominant order mount, the state turns to increasingly physical and severe measures in response: incarceration, police force, and ultimately military intervention.

Perry Anderson, in his essay "Considerations on Western Marxism", writes that
"despite the huge popularity gained by the concept in many circles, ISA as a concept was never theorised by Althusser himself in any serious manner. It was merely conceived as a conjunctural and temporary tool to challenge the contemporary liberalism within the French Communist Party. A further elaboration of the concept in the hands of Nicos Paulantzas was easily demolished by Ralph Miliband in the exchanges over the pages of New Left Review. For, if all the institutions of civil society are conceptualised as part of the state, then a mere electoral victory of a left wing student organisation in a University can also be said to be a victory over a part of the state!"

The point is that folks behave in a good or bad manner due to a a variety of outside influences ... some the state can try to control; but most the state can only try to control.

For better or worse we have created a society that provides us with certain freedoms and with those freedoms comes a loss of control of the ideology that governs behavior. Simplistic solutions and easy judgments will not solve complex problems. People do what people do and unless we are willing to surrender certain basic freedoms - we will have to learn to accept the social cost - even if that means more Newtowns and Auroras.

Cheers!

Whoa!!!! I'll have to read this again after my morning coffee. :mornincoffee:

[Bucco]

The most current thing that bothers me about our society and one that I have not seen mentioned (apologies if I missed someone mentioning it) BUT we now have 2 states that have made it legal to smoke marijuana, which has obvious effects on human beings. Noticed a small blurb in todays NYTimes mentioning the effect on cognative ability to learn.

I suppose the move is feel good, no matter what but I propose that anyone who does not see this "movement" going forward as the government has decided not to "get involved", is just kidding themselves that it will not have long term effects on things that we profess concern for.

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Whoa!!!! I'll have to read this again after my morning coffee. :mornincoffee:

...........and my afternoon nap!!!

Bill :wave:

[ugotme]

Part of the problem was brought out in a cartoon in today's Sun Sentinel. The cartoon is called "Zits."

A teenager is laying on the couch and states "All I want is faster, more gratifying instant gratification." To which his friend (via the computer) says "And you want it NOW!"

[DougB]

are you now going to tell me that everything was fine in our schools when we had forced bible readings each morning? or the forced recitation of the Lord's Prayer?
chilout

Not trying to tell you anything, just stating a fact about a school district that respects the Pledge of Allegiance.:BigApplause: