IRS/Bond Issue

[downeaster]

According to the Daily Sun the issue has been resolved. Looks like we and the Developer are off the hook.

[graciegirl]

According to the Daily Sun the issue has been resolved. Looks like we and the Developer are off the hook.


SAY WHAT?

I haven't read the paper yet.

You mean it?????

[graciegirl]

omigosh...Front page.

I want so bad to say. I told you so.

[mulligan]

Gracie, you don't have a vindictive bone in your body. There will be no "i told you so". Any bets on how long it will take the conspiracy peeps to come out from behind the woodwork ?

[memason]

While the article is promising, it does NOT resolve the tax-free bond issue. It only states that the amenities, puchased from the Developer, were not over priced, as originally alleged by the IRS.

Only time will tell, if the IRS will now drop the issue....

[downeaster]

omigosh...Front page.

I want so bad to say. I told you so.

You have earned that right. Now let's hear from the doom and gloom group.

[Cisco Kid]

You have earned that right. Now let's hear from the doom and gloom group.

It must have been a pay off right ?
evil corporation right
corruption right
GOD BLESS THE FAMILY

Maybe now they will have a 4th build out
a 4th town square

Start the party

:a20::a20::a20:

[rubicon]

While the article is promising, it does NOT resolve the tax-free bond issue. It only states that the amenities, puchased from the Developer, were not over priced, as originally alleged by the IRS.

Only time will tell, if the IRS will now drop the issue....

memason: Spot on

[graciegirl]

Front page of Daily Sun Today.

[Advogado]

Front page of Daily Sun Today.
Despite some optimistic posts above, the issue is not yet resolved. While, as a Villages resident, I hope the Center Districts (and thereby the developer) prevail, it still seems far from clear that that will happen.

If you read the article carefully, you will realize that if the newspaper were not owned by the developer, the headline would not have read: "Analysis of IRS appraisal vindicates developer, district." It would have read, "Districts' attorney argues that analysis of IRS appraisal vindicates developer, district".

[TVMayor]

What does the article say about the right of the CDD to sell tax free bonds?

Sorry I do not subscribe to the TV Daily Sun, if it’s not on the net it did not happen.

The top story in the TV Daily Sun on the net today is about award-winning recipes which does not encourage me to worship the sun at the end of my driveway each morning.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii199/The_Villages/Sunworship_zps2b1e7654.jpg

[Advogado]

Oh, I know that the official decree has not been presented yet. I can wait.

Gee, I wonder how I would know that at least two of the "Negative Nellies" would already have posted. I could have picked them by name without hesitation. They must absolutely hate waking up each day in The Villages! As my mother would have stated, "Some people aren't happy unless they are unhappy!" My Mom was soooooooooooo bright. I miss her wisdom every single day. Don't let them urinate on yet another GREAT DAY IN THE VILLAGES.

Xavier
There is a difference between being a "Negative Nelly" and not having my head in the clouds. I have had enough experience with business evaluations and taxes to know that the developer and Center Districts have a tough fight here with respect to pricing-- not to mention the other two issues raised by the IRS.

Unless you know something that I don't, it doesn't appear that the IRS has agreed with any of the statements made by the developer's attorney and in-crowd and quoted as gospel in the article. If you are interested in understanding what is going on, and not just in name calling, I would sugest that you both read the POA Bulletins and go to distictgov.org and click on IRS Updates.

[Xavier]

There is a difference between being a "Negative Nelly" and not having my head in the clouds. I have had enough experience with business evaluations and taxes to know that the developer and Center Districts have a tough fight here with respect to pricing-- not to mention the other two issues raised by the IRS.

Unless you know something that I don't, it doesn't appear that the IRS has agreed with any of the statements made by the developer's attorney and in-crowd and quoted as gospel in the article. If you are interested in understanding what is going on, and not just in name calling, I would sugest that you both read the POA Bulletins and go to distictgov.org and click on IRS Updates.

Thanks - I've done both. I've even attended meetings. I am quite informed and open minded. I work with facts in such matters, not emotions. Why would you think that I directed my post at you. I was careful not to take aim at anyone. I think I must have hit a nerve. If you would take the time to look through your past posts, around 250 of them, I think that anyone could clearly see the tone of the vast majority of them. No disrespect intended.

Xavier

[Bogie Shooter]

:boom:

[Advogado]

Thanks - I've done both. I've even attended meetings. I am quite informed and open minded. I work with facts in such matters, not emotions. Why would you think that I directed my post at you. I was careful not to take aim at anyone. I think I must have hit a nerve. If you would take the time to look through your past posts, around 250 of them, I think that anyone could clearly see the tone of the vast majority of them. No disrespect intended.

Xavier

The tone, if there is one, of my posts is probably that this is POTENTIALLY a serious situation for Villagers that has been under-reported and misreported by the Developer-owned Daily Sun. I have always tried to accurately state the facts. Could you please correct any misstatements that I have made. I think everybody would be better served by focusing on the facts and not on calling other posters silly names.

[jbdlfan]

"Not pointing fingers at anyone", but I would think anyone with any common sense and thirst for knowledge would wait for other reliable news sources to either confirm or offer another side before making any judgements. That is not a dig on the developer, the paper, or the IRS. Kind of what we teach kids, check with multiple sources before making a decision......unless its in the DS and you live in The Villages.....

[cabo35]

To the "Negative Nellies":

“The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true.”

James Branch Cabell, The Silver Stallion

I respect the views of the pessimists who have a vested interest in the future of The Villages. Some are friends and neighbors. Their voices are necessary to keep an objective perspective. I do not view those who are perpetual Morse and TV bashers with the same benevolent perspective because their motivation is corrupt.

I remember distinctly the campaign waged by the alleged reporter Lauren Ritchie. Some from this forum cheered her on as she raised fears and arrogantly chastised Villagers for being more interested in their tee times than her representation of the doom and gloom bond issue. Some praised her agenda driven "investigative" expose while failing to recognize that she is NOT a reporter. She is a self proclaimed columnist unbridled by the ethics most reporters are bound to. In short, her "reporting" is biased and agenda driven.

After some simple "Google" research on a broader perspective of her work, I have arrived at the opinion that she is anti-Morse, anti-Villlages and anti-development. She does have a non-Villager like minded following.

I wonder how she will treat this stunning victory for The Villages and Mr. Morse. Refer to the "Negative Nellies" for a hint.

Does the developer still own the Villages Daily Sun?

[buggyone]

For some reason, Lauren Ritchie has always been "anti-Villages" and against anything about the Morse family. She is the worst kind of muck-raker you can imagine.

[Mikeod]

If the information is accurate, it does resolve one of the big questions, i.e., that the price paid was inflated to the benefit of the developer. I thought that would be the harder point to prove for the CDD.

The other main point, the ability of the CDD to issue tax free bonds, seems more likely to be resolved in favor of the CDD since it was formed legally under Florida law and there are precedents with this type of government throughout the state.

Hope it works out that way.

[Advogado]

To the "Negative Nellies":

“The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true.”

James Branch Cabell, The Silver Stallion

I respect the views of the pessimists who have a vested interest in the future of The Villages. Some are friends and neighbors. Their voices are necessary to keep an objective perspective. I do not view those who are perpetual Morse and TV bashers with the same benevolent perspective because their motivation is corrupt.

I remember distinctly the campaign waged by the alleged reporter Lauren Ritchie. Some from this forum cheered her on as she raised fears and arrogantly chastised Villagers for being more interested in their tee times than her representation of the doom and gloom bond issue. Some praised her agenda driven "investigative" expose while failing to recognize that she is NOT a reporter. She is a self proclaimed columnist unbridled by the ethics most reporters are bound to. In short, her "reporting" is biased and agenda driven.

After some simple "Google" research on a broader perspective of her work, I have arrived at the opinion that she is anti-Morse, anti-Villlages and anti-development. She does have a non-Villager like minded following.

I wonder how she will treat this stunning victory for The Villages and Mr. Morse. Refer to the "Negative Nellies" for a hint.

Does the developer still own the Villages Daily Sun?

With respect to your question, the fictitious name "Daily Sun" is registered to The Villages Operating Company, which I think you will find is one of the Developer's corporations.

[OpusX1]

According to the article, if the facts are correct, the IRS appraisal states that the Cdd's underpaid the developer for the assets that were purchased.
The IRS had pretty much hung its hat on the fact that the CDD'S had in fact paid an inflated price to the developer because the developer controlled the CDD's and it was not an arms length transaction. The IRS appraisal Knocks a leg out of that argument.
It will be interesting to see if Lauren Ritchie has anything say about this appraisal.

[TVMayor]

If the information is accurate, it does resolve one of the big questions, i.e., that the price paid was inflated to the benefit of the developer. I thought that would be the harder point to prove for the CDD.

The other main point, the ability of the CDD to issue tax free bonds, seems more likely to be resolved in favor of the CDD since it was formed legally under Florida law and there are precedents with this type of government throughout the state.

Hope it works out that way.
The type of government is not being questioned, it is rather a CDD in TV of the type CDD it is (no police dept, government must be arms length form the developer), is allowed to sell tax free bonds.

[l2ridehd]

Ah yes, the bond issue. Is everyone saving there dimes and pennies? Or you could just:

Here is a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry be happy
In every life we have some trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy......

source: Bobby McFerrin - Don't Worry, Be Happy Lyrics (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/onehitwonders/dontworrybehappylyrics.html)

[Mack184]

Moving into TV is not like moving into an ordinary city. Few come here for employment or other everyday reasons. So I am always amazed about the people who make the concious decision to move here for what TV is and then bash the hell out of Gary Morse and his operation. I've mentioned before that I'm not exactly a fan of The Villages "lifestyle", however with that said, I think Gary Morse is an absolute genius and there would be no Villages without him and his grand vision. So I find it astounding how many people buy into the concept and then bash Gary Morse at every available opportunity. Why the hell are you living there if you hate Mr. Morse & his concept so badly???

[graciegirl]

I know many of you. Many of you know me. I see many of you around town and at Crispers. BUT some of you never have given up your relentless negativism against the developer or your anonymity.

It makes me danged suspicious of just who you are and what is your motive?

[simpkinp]

Pardon my ignorance, but I am a fairly new poster. Who is this Lauren Ritchie person and where is she published. I get the Daily Sun, and only occasionally see articles from other local papers if they are sent to me in via email. I keep up with world and national issues through publications like The Week and Wall Street Journal. I don't have my head in the sand, but also not in the gutter. TV is paradise. Go out of the bubble and appreciate TV when you return. I personally hope the Developer and family always stay involved with TV. Gosh, looked what they created!

[Bogie Shooter]

Pardon my ignorance, but I am a fairly new poster. Who is this Lauren Ritchie person and where is she published. I get the Daily Sun, and only occasionally see articles from other local papers if they are sent to me in via email. I keep up with world and national issues through publications like The Week and Wall Street Journal. I don't have my head in the sand, but also not in the gutter. TV is paradise. Go out of the bubble and appreciate TV when you return. I personally hope the Developer and family always stay involved with TV. Gosh, looked what they created!

Orlando news, information, weather, hurricane coverage, sports, entertainment, restaurants, real estate, jobs, business, classifieds - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com)

Lauren Ritchie Orlando Sentinel columns - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-columnist-ritchie,0,2544929.columnist)

[ijusluvit]

Maybe there's a simple explanation which got by me, but here's what I don't get:

The developer, with a very gracious full page ad/editorial in The Sun, settled a lawsuit brought by some very brave POA members a few years ago. The districts north of 466 received about $44 million and the right to form the AAC committees to control the use of amenity fees, etc.

Why in the world would the developer, whose work I have immense respect for btw, not argue that he did not owe this money when he was selling off facilities to those same districts to the tune of maybe a $47.1 million loss?????

He didn't know he was selling facilities at a loss?
His lawyers recently helped him discover those losses?

[graciegirl]

Maybe there's a simple explanation which got by me, but here's what I don't get:

The developer, with a very gracious full page ad/editorial in The Sun, settled a lawsuit brought by some very brave POA members a few years ago. The districts north of 466 received about $44 million and the right to form the AAC committees to control the use of amenity fees, etc.

Why in the world would the developer, whose work I have immense respect for btw, not argue that he did not owe this money when he was selling off facilities to those same districts to the tune of maybe a $47.1 million loss?????

He didn't know he was selling facilities at a loss?
His lawyers recently helped him discover those losses?

Villages developer to pay $40 million for recreation upgrades to settle a lawsuit - Orlando Sentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2008-03-09/news/lvillages09_1_villages-fees-lawyer)

[cabo35]

Pardon my ignorance, but I am a fairly new poster. Who is this Lauren Ritchie person and where is she published.

On March 5, 2009, Lauren Ritchie unleashed a stunning, slanted article under the Orlando Sentinel headline banner, "IRS TO VILLAGES DEVELOPER--YOU BILKED RESIDENTS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. PART TWO:THE MYSTERY DEEPENS

Ritchie suggested that the developers and the district "likely" would face sanctions. She said that chances were "high" that the exposure would be for the total $271 million in bonds and not just the $64 million involved in one issue. To further her assault, she opined that each household could have a liability of $18,000.

That pretty much sets the tone for her agenda, but, the words that will always define her cavalier arrogance, sinister motives and credibility for me was her conclusion. It reads, "And it is time for homeowners to worry less about their tee time and marvelous activities and more about their future property values and financial liability."

Don't hold your breath for a mea culpa.

Hope that fills in some background.

[ijusluvit]

I can think of lots of adjectives to describe the malcontents of the POA, but "brave" wouldn't be one of them.


I think I know the history of the POA and the lawsuit. I think 'brave' is apt.

I'd like to know why you think not.

[Moderator]

A reminder to get back on topic and avoid name calling and political comments.

Thank you....

[ilovetv]

On March 5, 2009, Lauren Ritchie unleashed a stunning, slanted article under the Orlando Sentinel headline banner, "IRS TO VILLAGES DEVELOPER--YOU BILKED RESIDENTS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. PART TWO:THE MYSTERY DEEPENS

Ritchie suggested that the developers and the district "likely" would face sanctions. She said that chances were "high" that the exposure would be for the total $271 million in bonds and not just the $64 million involved in one issue. To further her assault, she opined that each household could have a liability of $18,000.

That pretty much sets the tone for her agenda, but, the words that will always define her cavalier arrogance, sinister motives and credibility for me was her conclusion. It reads, "And it is time for homeowners to worry less about their tee time and marvelous activities and more about their future property values and financial liability."

Don't hold your breath for a mea culpa.

Hope that fills in some background.

Yup....Ritchie really cares about us "homeowners and our property values and financial liability", when she stereotypes and characterizes us all as a bunch of ignorant, lazy, idle, rich old white snobs who care about nothing but golf (never mind the fact that only 40% of people here actually play golf).....

[The Great Fumar]

Well I was going to make a very profound statement about the recent turn of events but I can't concentrate with KATE SMITH singing in the background...

:22yikes: ........fumar

[golf2140]

Well I was going to make a very profound statement about the recent turn of events but I can't concentrate with KATE SMITH singing in the background...

:22yikes: ........fumar

I tried to give my thoughts, but the big guy knocked them off !!!!

[Topspinmo]

Hey, Great Fumar did I see you play tennis in Ft. worth in 1978..






Sure your not Ken Rosewall????????? Am I the only one that sees the resemblance

[TVMayor]

"when she stereotypes and characterizes us all as a bunch of ignorant, lazy, idle, rich old white snobs who care about nothing but golf"

Do you have a link to that article?

[Bogie Shooter]

Do you have a link to that article?

Here are her columns going back to 2009.
Lauren Ritchie Orlando Sentinel columns - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-columnist-ritchie,0,2544929.columnist) Here are her posts on TOTV. https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5737450

[TVMayor]

Here are her columns going back to 2009.
Lauren Ritchie Orlando Sentinel columns - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-columnist-ritchie,0,2544929.columnist) Here are her posts on TOTV. https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5737450
Thanks for that, one more thing do you have a link to the article where she states the following? "ignorant, lazy, idle, rich old white snobs"

[rubicon]

Folks I am not interested in name calling nor pre-judging. Instead I would suggest that the folks being called negative are only delivering bad news not creating it . People were not appaulding Ritchie for her campaign against the Developer but only because they finally had a factual accounting and in fact the only accountig of this IRS action which force the Developer via Daily Sun and the VCCDD to begin reporting on it

As to the appraisal issue perhaps you folksshould read the filings ? If you did you would get an eye full We as residents do no know if the allegations are true or untrue but if true then the basis for valuing assets well overstated and the income stream from amenities also overstated. Lastly this process only used appraisal firms, etc that were used excusively by the Developer and upon which the Developer had exclusive control. The same firms he is still using in connection with developing T he Villages. If true it was a conflict of interest and we did not have the benefit of independent verification. It would be like Iran having their people verify that they have not built nukes and the USA agreeing to it

[graciegirl]

Be aware that on this forum no one I have ever known has ever spent any time with any member of the Morse family especially and including me.

There are those like me that are impressed by the success of the builders family business plan and how it adds to our own happiness. I see the obvious things, the cleanliness, the beauty of the miles of pristinely kept landscaping, the beautifully outfitted and maintained rec centers and town squares. I lived next to Odell Rec center and witnessed it being painted every year, together with all of the structures on the grounds and watched the wall dividing our property from the rec center being power washed and the planting beds adjacent to it being weeded.

After paying a lot of money over a lot of years for golf, I could play the nine hole executive courses here for the trail fee, drive my own cart to all 34 of them and enjoy watching my husband play any of the 12 championship courses after watching him work for over 55 years.

I witnessed people from all walks of life and many levels of income enjoy the life previously enjoyed by only the very wealthy and privileged and all of us paid the same amenity fee of about $140 a month.

I saw them have available many country club restaurants with decent food and affordable selections and watched most of them increase their activity levels by moving about more with all kinds of physical and educational activities.

And I also heard that the developer owned a yacht, three airplanes, a ranch in Montana and had become a billionaire. Now that didn't surprise me as I know for a fact that if you work hard with a good idea in this country you can become rich indeed.

But being rich seems to **** a lot of people off and being on the OTHER side of the political aisle seems to annoy a lot of folks too.

Many prospective villagers and new villagers are NOT prepared for deed restrictions or any restrictions and do NOT like the CDD form of government.

There are those who have been realtors all of their lives and still work for local MLS agencies but are not allowed to sell the builders new homes. There are those who dislike the builders political party contributions and the obviously slanted Daily Sun that he established. There are those that have not been hired to work for the Morse empire or let go by them. There are those who are developing other communities nearby. There are those people who are just plain jealous of the success of this place and don't live here.

There are those who don't like The Morse Clan and never met them and folks who are fans and equally not familiar with them.

I am going to say that perhaps if I really KNEW Gary Morse, I wouldn't like him.

But since I don't know him and judge him only on his accomplishments, I think he and his dad were geniuses to take a lot of not very interesting land in the center of Florida, in a county with one of the lowest employment rates and turn it into the county with the highest employment rate in the state and the fastest growing area in Florida and the fourth in the country. Those unseen Morses created here a place that this 73 year old woman and the love of fifty plus years have found joy and so many opportunities for fun and a new and exciting life that was never before a choice for senior citizens anywhere on this earth.

[bevlaur]

Graciegirl, thank you for your comments. I very seldom comment on TOTV, but had to commend you for putting it exactly right as far as I am concerned. I do not know the Morse family either, and agree totally with you that they have created a wonderful way of life for us and by that they have made lots of money. That being said, so what?? We live very comfortably here, and I don't care how much money they make as it really doesn't us personally. So all those people who constantly rip the Morse family up and down, if you really don't like the way things are and are so unhappy, MOVE - this is the United States and no one is forced to move, or stay here. Once again, thank you Graciegirl for you great point of view, as always.

[perrjojo]

Ditto to Gracie's post!

[Advogado]

Folks I am not interested in name calling nor pre-judging. Instead I would suggest that the folks being called negative are only delivering bad news not creating it . People were not appaulding Ritchie for her campaign against the Developer but only because they finally had a factual accounting and in fact the only accountig of this IRS action which force the Developer via Daily Sun and the VCCDD to begin reporting on it

As to the appraisal issue perhaps you folksshould read the filings ? If you did you would get an eye full We as residents do no know if the allegations are true or untrue but if true then the basis for valuing assets well overstated and the income stream from amenities also overstated. Lastly this process only used appraisal firms, etc that were used excusively by the Developer and upon which the Developer had exclusive control. The same firms he is still using in connection with developing T he Villages. If true it was a conflict of interest and we did not have the benefit of independent verification. It would be like Iran having their people verify that they have not built nukes and the USA agreeing to it

Well said. Let's remember that this whole thread was prompted by a headline in the Developer-owned Daily Sun that was, charitably put, not exactly accurate.

[Xavier]

Be aware that on this forum no one I have ever known has ever spent any time with any member of the Morse family especially and including me.

There are those like me that are impressed by the success of the builders family business plan and how it adds to our own happiness. I see the obvious things, the cleanliness, the beauty of the miles of pristinely kept landscaping, the beautifully outfitted and maintained rec centers and town squares. I lived next to Odell Rec center and witnessed it being painted every year, together with all of the structures on the grounds and watched the wall dividing our property from the rec center being power washed and the planting beds adjacent to it being weeded.

After paying a lot of money over a lot of years for golf, I could play the nine hole executive courses here for the trail fee, drive my own cart to all 34 of them and enjoy watching my husband play any of the 12 championship courses after watching him work for over 55 years.

I witnessed people from all walks of life and many levels of income enjoy the life previously enjoyed by only the very wealthy and privileged and all of us paid the same amenity fee of about $140 a month.

I saw them have available many country club restaurants with decent food and affordable selections and watched most of them increase their activity levels by moving about more with all kinds of physical and educational activities.

And I also heard that the developer owned a yacht, three airplanes, a ranch in Montana and had become a billionaire. Now that didn't surprise me as I know for a fact that if you work hard with a good idea in this country you can become rich indeed.

But being rich seems to **** a lot of people off and being on the OTHER side of the political aisle seems to annoy a lot of folks too.

Many prospectiver villaagers and new villagers are NOT prepared for deed restrictions or any restrictions and do NOT like the CDD form of government.

There are those who have been realtors all of their lives and still work for local MLS agencies but are not allowed to sell the builders new homes. There are those who dislike the builders political party contributions and the obviously slanted Daily Sun that he established. There are those that have not been hired to work for the Morse empire or let go by them. There are those who are developing other communities nearby. There are those people who are just plain jealous of the success of this place and don't live here.

There are those who don't like The Morse Clan and never met them and folks who are fans and equally not familiar with them.

I am going to say that perhaps if I really KNEW Gary Morse, I wouldn't like him.

But since I don't know him and judge him only on his accomplishments, I think he and his dad were geniuses to take a lot of not very interesting land in the center of Florida, in a county with one of the lowest employment rates and turn it into the county with the highest employment rate in the state and the fastest growing area in Florida and the fourth in the country. Those unseen Morses created here a place that this 73 year old woman and the love of fifty plus years have found joy and so many opportunities for fun and a new and exciting life that was never before a choice for senior citizens anywhere on this earth.

I love you Gracie, but don't tell Sweetie.

Xavier

[mickey100]

Folks I am not interested in name calling nor pre-judging. Instead I would suggest that the folks being called negative are only delivering bad news not creating it . People were not appaulding Ritchie for her campaign against the Developer but only because they finally had a factual accounting and in fact the only accountig of this IRS action which force the Developer via Daily Sun and the VCCDD to begin reporting on it

As to the appraisal issue perhaps you folksshould read the filings ? If you did you would get an eye full We as residents do no know if the allegations are true or untrue but if true then the basis for valuing assets well overstated and the income stream from amenities also overstated. Lastly this process only used appraisal firms, etc that were used excusively by the Developer and upon which the Developer had exclusive control. The same firms he is still using in connection with developing T he Villages. If true it was a conflict of interest and we did not have the benefit of independent verification. It would be like Iran having their people verify that they have not built nukes and the USA agreeing to it

Excellent post. :beer3:

[Mack184]

Be aware that on this forum no one I have ever known has ever spent any time with any member of the Morse family especially and including me.

There are those like me that are impressed by the success of the builders family business plan and how it adds to our own happiness. I see the obvious things, the cleanliness, the beauty of the miles of pristinely kept landscaping, the beautifully outfitted and maintained rec centers and town squares. I lived next to Odell Rec center and witnessed it being painted every year, together with all of the structures on the grounds and watched the wall dividing our property from the rec center being power washed and the planting beds adjacent to it being weeded.

After paying a lot of money over a lot of years for golf, I could play the nine hole executive courses here for the trail fee, drive my own cart to all 34 of them and enjoy watching my husband play any of the 12 championship courses after watching him work for over 55 years.

I witnessed people from all walks of life and many levels of income enjoy the life previously enjoyed by only the very wealthy and privileged and all of us paid the same amenity fee of about $140 a month.

I saw them have available many country club restaurants with decent food and affordable selections and watched most of them increase their activity levels by moving about more with all kinds of physical and educational activities.

And I also heard that the developer owned a yacht, three airplanes, a ranch in Montana and had become a billionaire. Now that didn't surprise me as I know for a fact that if you work hard with a good idea in this country you can become rich indeed.

But being rich seems to **** a lot of people off and being on the OTHER side of the political aisle seems to annoy a lot of folks too.

Many prospective villagers and new villagers are NOT prepared for deed restrictions or any restrictions and do NOT like the CDD form of government.

There are those who have been realtors all of their lives and still work for local MLS agencies but are not allowed to sell the builders new homes. There are those who dislike the builders political party contributions and the obviously slanted Daily Sun that he established. There are those that have not been hired to work for the Morse empire or let go by them. There are those who are developing other communities nearby. There are those people who are just plain jealous of the success of this place and don't live here.

There are those who don't like The Morse Clan and never met them and folks who are fans and equally not familiar with them.

I am going to say that perhaps if I really KNEW Gary Morse, I wouldn't like him.

But since I don't know him and judge him only on his accomplishments, I think he and his dad were geniuses to take a lot of not very interesting land in the center of Florida, in a county with one of the lowest employment rates and turn it into the county with the highest employment rate in the state and the fastest growing area in Florida and the fourth in the country. Those unseen Morses created here a place that this 73 year old woman and the love of fifty plus years have found joy and so many opportunities for fun and a new and exciting life that was never before a choice for senior citizens anywhere on this earth.
:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowd own:
You are The BOMB G-Person!!!
XO
Mack

[SMills]

Amen Graciegirl, Amen!!!

[mrdarcy]

My view is today is all you have right now, so enjoy today and be grateful for it.

[ilovetv]

WELL SAID, Gracie!

This quote of yours says so much of the central issue at hand:

"I witnessed people from all walks of life and many levels of income enjoy the life previously enjoyed by only the very wealthy and privileged and all of us paid the same amenity fee of about $140 a month.

I saw them have available many country club restaurants with decent food and affordable selections and watched most of them increase their activity levels by moving about more with all kinds of physical and educational activities."

The same people who condemn the developers for being "millionaires and billionaires", "greedy" and "not paying their fair share" are the same ones who conveniently omit how much the developers "give back"--unnecessarily--to "the little people" enjoying life here in a home that costs a "mere" $85,000 to $200,000.

[downeaster]

Folks I am not interested in name calling nor pre-judging. Instead I would suggest that the folks being called negative are only delivering bad news not creating it . People were not appaulding Ritchie for her campaign against the Developer but only because they finally had a factual accounting and in fact the only accountig of this IRS action which force the Developer via Daily Sun and the VCCDD to begin reporting on it

As to the appraisal issue perhaps you folksshould read the filings ? If you did you would get an eye full We as residents do no know if the allegations are true or untrue but if true then the basis for valuing assets well overstated and the income stream from amenities also overstated. Lastly this process only used appraisal firms, etc that were used excusively by the Developer and upon which the Developer had exclusive control. The same firms he is still using in connection with developing T he Villages. If true it was a conflict of interest and we did not have the benefit of independent verification. It would be like Iran having their people verify that they have not built nukes and the USA agreeing to it


I am a bit confused by your statements, Rubicon. On one hand you state the Developer's appraisers were used and then you say "if true it was a conflict of interest".

I assume the Developer used his appraisers findings when he responded to the IRS claim. Did the IRS use the same appraisals? Seems unlikely.

I do not always agree with your positions but I respect them. I think you have studied this situation and your input has been helpful. It would be even more helpful if you would clarify the highlighted portions of your post.

[KeepingItReal]

WELL SAID, Gracie!

The same people who condemn the developers for being "millionaires and billionaires", "greedy" and "not paying their fair share" are the same ones who conveniently omit how much the developers "give back"--unnecessarily--to "the little people" enjoying life here in a home that costs a "mere" $85,000 to $200,000.

Most extremely wealthy people do some amazing things for the good of humanity as a whole like bulding a new school or hospital which will not directly benefit themselves financially other than maybe being named after them.

Are there any such things out there anywhere we should know about that have been done by the developer here?

Maybe that would help all feel better if they knew more about the generosity shown when it did not directly benefit them. Don't think selling anyone a house here would qualify as an example.

No such thing as little people. The life they live and the kind of person they are is what matters not the bank account.

[graciegirl]

Most of us already feel better.

[mickey100]

that's a good question. I've always wondered that myself.

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by ilovetv
WELL SAID, Gracie!
The same people who condemn the developers for being "millionaires and billionaires", "greedy" and "not paying their fair share" are the same ones who conveniently omit how much the developers "give back"--unnecessarily--to "the little people" enjoying life here in a home that costs a "mere" $85,000 to $200,000.Most extremely wealthy people do some amazing things for the good of humanity as a whole like bulding a new school or hospital which will not directly benefit themselves financially other than maybe being named after them.

Are there any such things out there anywhere we should know about that have been done by the developer here?

Maybe that would help all feel better if they knew more about the generosity shown when it did not directly benefit them. Don't think selling anyone a house here would qualify as an example.

Most of us already feel better.

How about helping the rest feel better and those that would just like to know and list for us just a few things or at least one thing, it sure could not hurt.

This way all would see that the loyalty and admiration a lot of folks have is not misguided nor misplaced..and it would provide an opportunity to prove so many wrong.

Please tell us some of the things the developers "give back"--unnecessarily--to "the little people" as noted above.

Please just note or give us a short list of the things done for others large or small that did not benefit (in some way) or put $$ into the pocket of the developer and that will do it. Maybe a large contribution to medical research or a homeless shelter.

There must be at least a few things since he was a 2.5 Billionaire some time ago per Bloomberg. It would sure help everyone to be a little more understanding.

EXAMPLE: Oprah Winfrey is a media mogul with a net worth of $2.7 Billion. In 2007, Oprah opened the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls in South Africa, a boarding school for poverty-stricken girls. Must have cost quite a few dollars but nothing compared to her billions.

As far as buying here it wasn't free for anyone and there is still a fee for most everything so ALL purchasers have only added to the developers wealth by buying here.

We are just a customer to the developer and nothing more. He had a product he needs to sell to increase his wealth and we are the customers that bought his product.

A considerable profit was made on every sale just like any other development. Additional profits continue each month.

I did not expect anything free as nothing is but there were lots of things conviently kept quiet about or hidden that should have been made clear to any new buyer and finding out about those things afterwards just causes a lot of distrust.

We should also know and remember that if we fail to pay even a single required bill or fee we will be met with another fee called a late fee at a minimum and possibly even legal proceedings so where is the love in that?

Thanks

[iaudit]

Most extremely wealthy people do some amazing things for the good of humanity as a whole like bulding a new school or hospital which will not directly benefit themselves financially other than maybe being named after them.

Are there any such things out there anywhere we should know about that have been done by the developer here?

Maybe that would help all feel better if they knew more about the generosity shown when it did not directly benefit them. Don't think selling anyone a house here would qualify as an example.

He is very supportive of the American Cancer Relay For Life. NOT. It conflicts with where he wants our charity dollars to go.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by ilovetv
WELL SAID, Gracie!
The same people who condemn the developers for being "millionaires and billionaires", "greedy" and "not paying their fair share" are the same ones who conveniently omit how much the developers "give back"--unnecessarily--to "the little people" enjoying life here in a home that costs a "mere" $85,000 to $200,000.



How about helping the rest feel better and those that would just like to know and list for us just a few things or at least one thing, it sure could not hurt.

This way all would see that the loyalty and admiration a lot of folks have is not misguided nor misplaced..and it would provide an opportunity to prove so many wrong.

Please tell us some of the things the developers "give back"--unnecessarily--to "the little people" as noted above.

Please just note or give us a short list of the things done for others large or small that did not benefit (in some way) or put $$ into the pocket of the developer and that will do it. Maybe a large contribution to medical research or a homeless shelter.

There must be at least a few things since he was a 2.5 Billionaire some time ago per Bloomberg. It would sure help everyone to be a little more understanding.

EXAMPLE: Oprah Winfrey is a media mogul with a net worth of $2.7 Billion. In 2007, Oprah opened the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls in South Africa, a boarding school for poverty-stricken girls. Must have cost quite a few dollars but nothing compared to her billions.

As far as buying here it wasn't free for anyone and there is still a fee for most everything so ALL purchasers have only added to the developers wealth by buying here.

We are just a customer to the developer and nothing more. He had a product he needs to sell to increase his wealth and we are the customers that bought his product.

A considerable profit was made on every sale just like any other development. Additional profits continue each month.

I did not expect anything free as nothing is but there were lots of things conviently kept quiet about or hidden that should have been made clear to any new buyer and finding out about those things afterwards just causes a lot of distrust.

We should also know and remember that if we fail to pay even a single required bill or fee we will be met with another fee called a late fee at a minimum and possibly even legal proceedings so where is the love in that?

Thanks


The part high lighted in red, I truly do not understand. But we have always paid our bills on time because our parents made us understand that not too was wrong and cheated the person who you owed..

A person who is in business to make money and makes money is not a terrible person. The developer employs thousands of people and enables thousands more to be employed. He doesn't put all of the money from the sales in his pocket. He enables the economy by buying supplies and paying wages.

If a person is very successful in business doesn't mean they are crooks. Admittedly some are and I feel you are convinced the developers are because of the incorrect charges on the bond that you found.

You are entitled to your opinion about them.

The Morses do make large contributions to one of the political parties but that won't help your opinion unless you are an advocate of that party.

As I have said before, maybe they are just all mean as snakes.

But it is not a sin to be rich. If you rise early and work hard and sacrifice and take risks with your own money, and save part of what you earn, you will probably after many years of long days and much worry become rich in this country. There is rich and there is RICH.

I am a little tired of people condemning the process of free enterprise in this country.

I hope that wasn't political.

The thing of it is, that NO ONE on this forum, as far as I can see really knows the family at all.

If you want to go to search and read about the Moffitt center you will enlighten yourselves about the change of venue of the Relay for Life.

[mickey100]

I also remember a while back the developer also put the brakes on bringing the Viet Nam Memorial Wall to The Villages. I have neve heard about the Morses supporting a charity, and am really curious if they do so. We hear so much about the 4 jets he owns, the multi million dollar yacht, his ownership of the Villages banks, local newspaper, a television channel and an AM radio station. His realty company controls 60 percent of the re-sale market in the Villages. He even owns the utility company. And before someone jumps in and says he deserves it all, he's such a wonderful businessman, don't bother. I agree - he knows his financial P's and Q's. That's not what this post is about. But why do we hear nothing about charitable contributions? The guy is supposedly worth $2.5 billion. If we google other billionaires we see plenty of charity donations - look at Gates, Buffet. Bloomberg, Ted Turner, and others. But I can't come up with a single charitable donation from the Morses.

[graciegirl]

I also remember a while back the developer also put the brakes on bringing the Viet Nam Memorial Wall to The Villages. I have neve heard about the Morses supporting a charity, and am really curious if they do so. We hear so much about the 4 jets he owns, the multi million dollar yacht, his ownership of the Villages banks, local newspaper, a television channel and an AM radio station. His realty company controls 60 percent of the re-sale market in the Villages. He even owns the utility company. And before someone jumps in and says he deserves it all, he's such a wonderful businessman, don't bother. I agree - he knows his financial P's and Q's. That's not what this post is about. But why do we hear nothing about charitable contributions? The guy is supposedly worth $2.5 billion. If we google other billionaires we see plenty of charity donations - look at Gates, Buffet. Bloomberg, Ted Turner, and others. But I can't come up with a single charitable donation from the Morses.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/mark-morse-kills-veterans-celebration-vietnam-memorial-wall-37261/

[Moderator]

The topic is the recent news article about the IRS valuation of the sale of amenity assets to the central CDD.

This thread is straying far off track and will soon be closed if the discussion doesn't get back on topic.

[Advogado]

Despite the Daily Sun headline that provoked this thread, the fact that the pricing issue is still open (as others and myself have pointed out above and have been called names for so doing) was confirmed by District Manager Janet Tutt at Tuesday night's POA meeting. The "Analysis" referred to in the Daily Sun headline was done by the District Staff and the District's tax attorney. Unfortunately, as Ms. Tutt acknowledged, the IRS has not yet concurred with that analysis. Until that happens or we get a court decision accepting that analysis, the fat lady has not yet sung and nothing has really changed.

[mickey100]

We all hope that the decision will go our way, but the facts are, we still don't know what's going to happen, although I was reading on The National Law Review that an IRS decision is expected in the near future. As I read it, the IRS still has to recognize the Villages CDD as a true political subdivision for it to to be eligible. The sticking points are that the developer/land owner controls a majority of the votes and elects the board of supervisors of the Village CDD and thus controls the CDD. We all anxiously await a resolution of this issue.

[cabo35]

It is quite clear from the majority of contributors on this forum, plus my well informed neighbors and friends, that the recent turn of events regarding the IRS issue has been viewed as a welcome harbinger of positive outcomes for homeowners. It was also embraced by those who were somewhat anxious about the contrived "Sword of Damocles" scenario perpetuated by Morse bashers, the loyal opposition and pessimists among us. In fairness, it is just in the nature of some to dwell on worst case scenarios and for some it is difficult to admit their initial documented assessment may have been exaggerated and off the mark. How sad to hope for an "I told you so outcome" for vindication. To all posters, be of good cheer. It's another great day in the Villages. Celebrate life.

“The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true.”

James Branch Cabell, The Silver Stallion

[janmcn]

Maybe there's a simple explanation which got by me, but here's what I don't get:

The developer, with a very gracious full page ad/editorial in The Sun, settled a lawsuit brought by some very brave POA members a few years ago. The districts north of 466 received about $44 million and the right to form the AAC committees to control the use of amenity fees, etc.

Why in the world would the developer, whose work I have immense respect for btw, not argue that he did not owe this money when he was selling off facilities to those same districts to the tune of maybe a $47.1 million loss?????

He didn't know he was selling facilities at a loss?
His lawyers recently helped him discover those losses?


Here's what I don't understand. When we, the residents, were forced to buy the facilities back in 2002, didn't we pay the developer nine times what it cost to build these facilities. For example: if the Savannah Center cost six million, we paid 54 million. Can anybody living here at the time refresh my memory?

If my figures are accurate, how can the developer come back ten years later and say he was shortchanged $47.1 million dollars?

I would like to see a chart with three figures for each facility; the cost to build, the amount the residents paid, and where did the deficit come from.

[villages07]

Jan.... from what I understand, the central CDD not only bought the facilities but also the right to collect amenity fees for a certain number of rooftops in perpetuity. It is this future revenue stream that adds the value not the raw building cost.

I am not an accountant nor ever pretended to be one but this is how I have heard it explained.

Sorta like buying a successful business...you don't just buy the brick and mortar, you are buying the customer base, goodwill, value of the name, future contracts, etc.

[Advogado]

Jan.... from what I understand, the central CDD not only bought the facilities but also the right to collect amenity fees for a certain number of rooftops in perpetuity. It is this future revenue stream that adds the value not the raw building cost.

I am not adn accountant nor ever pretended to be one but this is how I have heard it explained.

Sorta like buying a successful business...you don't just buy the brick and mortar, you are buying the customer base, goodwill, value of the name, future contracts, etc.

Your understanding is correct, as far as it goes.

One of the questions being examined by the IRS is the methodology that was used to value the futue income stream when the Developer sold the assets to the Center Districts. The IRS argues that the methodology used resulted in an overvaluation of the assets and thus an over-issuance of bonds. The proceeds of the sale of the bonds were used to pay the Developer.

In other words, the IRS is arguing that the Developer improperly used purportedly tax exempt bonds to enrich himself at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer, which subsidized the bonds through the tax exemption. The Developer denies this.

Time will tell who will prevail, but we should hope that the Developer does because of the huge potential liability of the Center Districts, which furnish us with our amenities. In the meantime, the Daily Sun headline, which indicated that the matter had now been resolved in favor of the Developer and which provoked happy posts at the beginning of this thread, was, at best, inaccurate. Let's just hope that it was merely premature.

[janmcn]

Jan.... from what I understand, the central CDD not only bought the facilities but also the right to collect amenity fees for a certain number of rooftops in perpetuity. It is this future revenue stream that adds the value not the raw building cost.

I am not an accountant nor ever pretended to be one but this is how I have heard it explained.

Sorta like buying a successful business...you don't just buy the brick and mortar, you are buying the customer base, goodwill, value of the name, future contracts, etc.

Let's assume that everything you say is accurate. That still doesn't answer the question as to why it took the developer over ten years to realize he had been short-changed by over 47 million dollars. For such a business genius, as Gary Morse has been called many time, that is quite an oversight.

[mickey100]

It is quite clear from the majority of contributors on this forum, plus my well informed neighbors and friends, that the recent turn of events regarding the IRS issue has been viewed as a welcome harbinger of positive outcomes for homeowners. It was also embraced by those who were somewhat anxious about the contrived "Sword of Damocles" scenario perpetuated by Morse bashers, the loyal opposition and pessimists among us. In fairness, it is just in the nature of some to dwell on worst case scenarios and for some it is difficult to admit their initial documented assessment may have been exaggerated and off the mark. How sad to hope for an "I told you so outcome" for vindication. To all posters, be of good cheer. It's another great day in the Villages. Celebrate life.

“The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true.”

James Branch Cabell, The Silver Stallion

I haven't seen anyone post their hope for an "I told you so outcome". And To imply that just because quite a view posters on this forum are wishing things will turn out positively, therefore its a done deal, is nonsensical. We are all hoping for a positive outcome but without a crystal ball, who knows how the wind blows.

[Bogie Shooter]

I haven't seen anyone post their hope for an "I told you so outcome". And To imply that just because quite a view posters on this forum are wishing things will turn out positively, therefore its a done deal, is nonsensical. We are all hoping for a positive outcome but without a crystal ball, who knows how the wind blows.

Right, and the posters are just posting opinions.....nothing based on facts.