Is the Pope Italian? Are you Irish? German?

[Villages PL]

I just happened to be thinking about it today and I want to see what you think.

It started because I was thinking about the pope. I can't help but think of him as Italian even though he wasn't born in Italy. And then a thought came to me: If his mother and father were born in Italy, then he would be Italian (genetically) no matter where he was born.

Culturally, he might be something else unless he was raised in an Italian community. Was he? I don't know.

Why does any of this matter? I don't know, I just thought it would be interesting.

What counts more? Genes? or Culture? Or is it about equal?

:read:

[Cantwaittoarrive]

I just happened to be thinking about it today and I want to see what you think.

It started because I was thinking about the pope. I can't help but think of him as Italian even though he wasn't born in Italy. And then a thought came to me: If his mother and father were born in Italy, then he would be Italian (genetically) no matter where he was born.

Culturally, he might be something else unless he was raised in an Italian community. Was he? I don't know.

Why does any of this matter? I don't know, I just thought it would be interesting.

What counts more? Genes? or Culture? Or is it about equal?

:read:

To me what matters is how you identify yourself (what you believe) not how others identify you. For example you can be of Irish genes but live a Mexican culture while living in the USA. All that matters is how you live not the genes or culture you were born into. Also I really don't think it matters! who cares?

[rubicon]

The Pope is an Agentine of Italian extraction just as we have americans of Italian extraction, Irish, etc

[redwitch]

I'm one of those who never quite understood the "Irish-American", "German-American" and so on and so forth that Americans so frequently use to designate themselves even when they are third or fourth generation Americans. To me, they're Americans. To me, the Pope is Argentinian with an Italian heritage. I'm German since that is where I was born and is my native language even though I have an American passport, am an American citizen and speak English/American far more fluently than I do German.

So, no this Pope is no more Italian than the previous Pope was. Guess we'll have to start tossing that phrase out the window.

[billethkid]

I guess the Italian Americans or the Irish Americans look at it the same way as black people who call themselves African American.

As a result of that type characterization that is used day in and day out, I refer to myself as a caucasian American. Just kidding. I really believe those of us born in the USA are Americans. The need for Afro or African or Italian or Irish et al......adds no value to defining a person.

btk

[gomoho]

Interesting topic - my mother is first generation American - parents from Poland and Russia and she married a first generation American - parents from Italy. To this day, and she is 93 years old, when someone new comes up her first question is "what is their extraction"? So for people born of immigrants and even their children do think about this 'cause it really did matter at one point.

[Villages PL]

Thanks, everyone, for all the replies.

After giving it some thought, I think both genes and culture are important. And I think I can prove my point by mentioning all the many clubs in The Villages that depend on a combination of genes and culture: Irish, Italian, German, Mexican, Filipino, African and others. (Sorry if I left out any group.)
Try telling all those people that genes and culture don't matter.

Here's a real life example that I experienced not too long ago. I'm not Irish but out of curiosity I decided to go see the Raggle Taggle Band in The Villages. They play Irish music almost exclusively. Anyone can go see them but I think the people in the room were about 99% Irish. (Or it might be more accurate to say "Celtic"?)

If it doesn't matter or people don't care about culture and genes, what was that gathering all about? You could see that they shared a similar Irish look (genetic) and the music represented their Irish cultural heritage. They share a special bond that's not exactly the same as what they share with others. The same goes for Italians, Germans and other ethnic or racial groups.

I'm not suggesting that we all go around calling ourselves Italian-Americans or Irish-Americans etc. but we shouldn't be in denial of who we really are.

Therefore, I say the pope's genetic and cultural heritage should not be dismissed. :)

[Quixote]

Thanks, everyone, for all the replies.

After giving it some thought, I think both genes and culture are important. And I think I can prove my point by mentioning all the many clubs in The Villages that depend on a combination of genes and culture: Irish, Italian, German, Mexican, Filipino, African and others. (Sorry if I left out any group.) Try telling all those people that genes and culture don't matter. ...


People are often inclined to dismiss the role of genes in who we are, and this is just plain incorrect. One need only look at our original non-immigrants, the indigenous peoples of North America, for two stunning examples:

The rate of alcoholism on Native American nations is extraordinary, and why? Because Native Americans culture for eons of time did not include alcohol, and so genetically there is no tolerance for alcohol. This is how historically, Native American leaders were manipulated into giving up their lands--by bribing them with alcohol. (There were others where the land was simply stolen from them; visit the Dade Battlefield reenactment first weekend in January every year in Bushnell, right down the road from TV in Sumter County, but that's not what we're talking about.)

The rate of diabetes on Native American nations is also extraordinary; something like TWO-THIRDS are diabetic. Sugars--especially the awful and some say poisonous sweeteners that are now presented to us (high fructose corn syrup is THE notable example)--were not part of the Native diet, again for eons of time, so there is simply no tolerance for them. Of course, this doesn't stop people from eating foods containing these types of sweeteners, and if one genetically does not have the capability of producing insulin, the results are pretty obvious.

Genes can certainly play a major role in cultural or nationalistic issues as well, as can be seen in some genetic diseases being confined to virtually a single population. We have friends of Mediterranean background (they call themselves Italian-American...) three of whose children died the same year (two within 24 hours of each other!) of a genetic disease that their other two children are carriers of. Obviously this is not a cultural issue but rather solely a genetic one.

I'm not sure what bearing this has on the Pope....

[Villages PL]

People are often inclined to dismiss the role of genes in who we are, and this is just plain incorrect. One need only look at our original non-immigrants, the indigenous peoples of North America, for two stunning examples:

The rate of alcoholism on Native American nations is extraordinary, and why? Because Native Americans culture for eons of time did not include alcohol, and so genetically there is no tolerance for alcohol. This is how historically, Native American leaders were manipulated into giving up their lands--by bribing them with alcohol. (There were others where the land was simply stolen from them; visit the Dade Battlefield reenactment first weekend in January every year in Bushnell, right down the road from TV in Sumter County, but that's not what we're talking about.)

The rate of diabetes on Native American nations is also extraordinary; something like TWO-THIRDS are diabetic. Sugars--especially the awful and some say poisonous sweeteners that are now presented to us (high fructose corn syrup is THE notable example)--were not part of the Native diet, again for eons of time, so there is simply no tolerance for them. Of course, this doesn't stop people from eating foods containing these types of sweeteners, and if one genetically does not have the capability of producing insulin, the results are pretty obvious.

Genes can certainly play a major role in cultural or nationalistic issues as well, as can be seen in some genetic diseases being confined to virtually a single population. We have friends of Mediterranean background (they call themselves Italian-American...) three of whose children died the same year (two within 24 hours of each other!) of a genetic disease that their other two children are carriers of. Obviously this is not a cultural issue but rather solely a genetic one.

I'm not sure what bearing this has on the Pope....

I'm not sure either. I believe it may have some bearing in regards to groups of Italians, Germans, Irish etc. getting together and behaving in certain ways. They see themselves in others and they can relate to it. But I'm not sure if, or how, it will impact the Pope. Perhaps he will feel at home in Rome and that may bring out the best in him.

[Tom Hannon]

When people ask me my nationality, I answer Irish. Yet, I have never been to Ireland. Born and raised in New York, (Long Island) how Irish can I be?

[Villages PL]

When people ask me my nationality, I answer Irish. Yet, I have never been to Ireland. Born and raised in New York, (Long Island) how Irish can I be?

I know what you mean. I say I'm Italian but I've never been to Italy and I have never even lived in an Italian neighborhood (except once, very briefly).
My parents were born in Sicily, Italy, but never spoke Italian around the house, only when visiting grandparents. So, I don't exactly fit in with older Italians who are steeped in Italian heritage.

[redwitch]

When people ask me my nationality, I answer Irish. Yet, I have never been to Ireland. Born and raised in New York, (Long Island) how Irish can I be?

Tom, to me you're American. And that's the point I was trying to make. I understand that genetics make a difference but we're not talking genetics, we're talking what people say they are. In most parts of the world, you are where YOU were born, not your parents. Ask a German of Turkish descent, at least by the third generation, what he is and he'll tell you he's German. Yes, he will practice a lot of his parents' culture at home but he'll still perceive himself first and foremost to be German. Here, it doesn't matter how many generations have been in America, people don't see themselves as Americans, they see themselves as Irish, Italian, German, Polish, etc. even though they don't really know the history of their nation nor do they really practice the cultures of that nation. They'll eat the food because they grew up with it, they'll celebrate both the American and heritage-nation holidays but they don't think of themselves as Americans. That, to me, is sad. This is a great nation and is deserving of having the heritage of being American embraced.

[downeaster]

All of my ancestors were here before July 4, 1776. I have attended many Younameit-American celebrations. I see all of those folks enjoying living out a little of their heritage. Frankly I feel a little envy. I am enjoying it with them but I am not part of them.
There is no Younameit-American club for me. However, we once had an annual membership to Old Sturbridge Village in Massachusetts. While visiting there I could picture my ancestors walking those streets or plowing those fields or even attending services in the Society of Friends Meeting House. Maybe that is what the Younameit-American clubs are all about.
I think it is great that The Villages is the kind of place where these clubs can flourish. I will continue to enjoy your festivities with you.















younmeit/

[senior citizen]

I just happened to be thinking about it today and I want to see what you think.

It started because I was thinking about the pope. I can't help but think of him as Italian even though he wasn't born in Italy. And then a thought came to me: If his mother and father were born in Italy, then he would be Italian (genetically) no matter where he was born.

Culturally, he might be something else unless he was raised in an Italian community. Was he? I don't know.

Why does any of this matter? I don't know, I just thought it would be interesting.

What counts more? Genes? or Culture? Or is it about equal?

:read:

Ancestry.com is a wonderful educational tool with which to delve into your ethnic background or to learn more about immigration from the various countries around the world..........

Pope Francis was born in Argentina, however, he is of Italian ethnicity.
Italian is his ethnic background and his ancestry.

Jorge Mario Bergoglio was born in Flores, a barrio of Buenos Aires. He was the eldest of five children of Mario Jose Bergoglio, an Italian immigrant railway worker born in Portacomaro, Province of Asti, Italy which is the Piedmont region in northern Italy. His wife, Regina Maria Sivori, a housewife born in Buenos Aires to a family of northern Italian (Piedmontese-Genoese) origin.

My own paternal grandfather and all of his siblings were born in Italy.
Most of them emigrated to the United States; some stayed behind in Italy.

One of my grandfather's brothers could not get into the United States via Ellis Island, so he and his young wife went instead to Buenos Aires Argentina where they had a large family of children, born in Argentina. He found work on a cattle ranch.

They are all still of Italian descent or Italian ethnicity, even though subsequent generations were born in Argentina.

It is your BLOODLINE that determines who you are. Not the country that you were born in. That is your citizenship.

Just like we who were born in the United States have various ethnicities in our background.

Unless we were Native American Indians.

The U.S. used to be called the "melting pot", thus many of us have numerous ethnic backgrounds, depending on how long our "greats" have been here.........and whom they married.......
.
The new Pope is of Italian ancestry, as are both his parents.
He was born and raised in Argentina.........so Argentina is his country of birth. But, he's still Italian.

My youngest grandchildren have an interesting genealogy as on their maternal side, their grandfather's family came to our country from Germany back in the 1700's......then migrated from Pennsylvania up to New York State and up into Canada......across Canada to British Columbia and then down the Pacific coast of the U.S. to California.........along the way, the young men of this large German family married many English, Irish and French women.........so the babies have a very large and interesting ancestry............but their original ancestors were from Bavaria..........the Bavarian Forest in Germany. Of course, we also follow the female lines as well.
So, these "trees" become huge.......

In any event, their ancestors have been here so very long that they truly do not even consider their ethnicities..........compared to say our Italian immigrants who came in the 1890's.

Ditto for the various Slavic immigrants who came in the early 1900's and whose children and grandchildren still celebrated various ethnic customs......like the Italians, knew what they were or who they came from..............subequent generations just consider themselves to be American........while still having an ethnic background.

When I was five years old, my dad wanted to teach me to speak the Italian language but I told him, "NO, I'm an American". Even at five, I knew that I was an American. But, do I wish I had studied Italian.......it would have been so much easier to learn at a young age.

In ending, I should add that GENEALOGY is a wonderful hobby.......it's like solving a mystery or putting a large puzzle together...........I began about 12 years ago as my mom was "disappearing" from end stage Alzheimers...........I did it for my newest grandson, about to be born.......I found out that I was NOT just Italian and Ukrainian, but that my dad's line had French in it (as he had always told me ....on his mom's side.....as well as Greek, ditto on his mom's Italian side)........and I "mushed through" the complexities of my maternal side from the Austrian Hungarian Empire of Franz Josef.........and all the border changes.........to my husband's Polish side. The Polish records are now in Ukraine and the Ukrainian records are now in Poland. *The Italian ancestry was much EASIER than the Slavic.......but it's all "good for the brain" as far as learning and growing. Plus, once you get the software and begin compiling all the data.............it's a wonderful historical record for the children and grandchildren............

*The reason the Italian ancestry was easier is that Napoleon was a stickler for keeping good records.......birth, marriage and death all had to be recorded.
Plus the Italian microfilms and records could be translated more easily; I had help from others who could read Italian. The Slavic records were very difficult, but I did have help from some kind priests who would translate my Ukrainian grandparents records for me...........etc.

The Ukrainian records were all in the Cyrillic alphabet and NOT the Roman alphabet. Cyrillic is very hard to decipher without help.
I learned that my mom's ancestors were Rusyns or White Russians; they were not called Ukrainians back then........but she always knew she was a "Ukie" or Ukrainian.
Ukrainians were called Ruthenians..........this led to me discovering that my husband's maternal grandfather declared his ethnicity as Ruthenian when he arrived in Ellis Island while his wife delcared hers as Polish. He knew what he was. Most of the men did. Some could read and write. My Ukrainian grandfather also declared he was Ruthenian. That was pre revolutionary for Ukrainian. They all spoke Ukrainian and wrote the cyrillic alphabet. There is a great website in Canada called Info Ukes.

[Villages PL]

It is your BLOODLINE that determines who you are. Not the country that you were born in. That is your citizenship.

That sounds right to me and that's what I was leaning toward. It makes sense that I would still be basically the same person regardless of where I was born. And, therefore, the pope is still Italian too. That settles it.

:pray: